Episode 11: Swept Away At Papanui Point Pt 2

Eighteen drownings on one stretch of coast is not “bad luck”. It's a pattern, and it forces a hard question for every land-based fisher and every community that lives near a rock fishing black spot: do we shut access, or do we get serious about safety and behaviour change?

We sit down with Josh Carmine (aquatic safety researcher, Drowning Prevention Aotearoa) and Glyn Morgan (Open Spaces Services Manager, Waikato District Council) to unpack what happens after a near-miss like Baz’s at Papanui Point. Josh breaks down the realities of falling in the drink. We also dig into what the research actually shows on the rocks: who is fishing, why many people are there for mates and adventure, and why perceived confidence can be miles away from real water competence.

Glyn brings the perspective of a land manager, why simply closing sites can push fishers into even more dangerous places, and what layered controls can help instead, from signage and formal tracks to life jacket hubs and better coordination across agencies.

If you care about fishing safety in New Zealand, share this with a mate, subscribe to the NZSFC Pod and Reel Podcast, and leave a review so more people hear it. What’s the one change you think would save the most lives? 

Transcript

Baz’s Near Miss Cold Open

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I did everything on what not to do this day. Respectful way possible. So I was fighting this fish and we were starting to go around heading out to the point. So I thought it would be a good idea to stick close to like the little bit of a cliff base that there is, but on a high point, and I was winding in the fish, and then all I remember was a big bass.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Should I I'm Josh Carmen, I'm an aquatic safety researcher at Drowning Prevention Auckland El Tera. Been with Drowning Prevention Auckland now for four and a half years. Unfortunately, yeah, have been involved picking up the pieces in many of these cases.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

My name's Glenn Morgan. I'm what they call the Open Spaces Services Manager for Waikedo District Council. What does that mean? That means I support the team who deliver on the maintenance and management of all our parks and reserves across the Waikato District. Papanoe Point is effectively located between Fangaroa Raglan and Rural Cookie Beach. So yes, it's a very challenging spot, but it is a spot that enables people to get very close to the fishing and the rocks and whatever activities they want to take.

The Bigger Question After Survival

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Welcome back to the NZSFC Pond and Reel podcast. Last episode you heard Baz's story: a normal day on the rocks at Papua Nui Point, a cast or hookup, and then a wave that nearly ended his life. For as long as I've been alive, 18 people have drowned at that same stretch of coast. Baz almost became number 19. But Baz survived. In this episode, we take the next step because stories like Baz's raise a bigger question. What happens next? What are we actually doing to stop more people dying at places like Papua Nui Point? You will hear from two people who are working on that problem right now. Josh Camini is aquatic safety researcher with drowning prevention out here. He studies how and why people drown and what we can do to stop it. You'll also hear from Glynn Morgan, Open Spaces Manager for Waikato District Council. His team manages the land around Papua Nui Point and is dealing with the difficult balance between public access and public safety. Papua Nui Point is a place with a long fishing history, but it's also a place with a long list of tragedies. So the question now is simple. Do we lock it up or do we manage it better? Or do we change the way we fish? Let's hear from the people closest to the issue and what they have to say.

Who Rock Fishers Are

SPEAKER_02 2:33

We'll start with Josh Carmini.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Shorter, I'm Josh Carmini. I'm an aquatic safety researcher at Draining Prevention Auckland El Tero. Been with Draining Prevention Auckland now for four and a half years. And my background prior to that, I trained to become a paramedic. I've got a degree in in paramedicine and you know did a bit of work around those. And then my background in terms of surf life saving, but then being that line of defense actually on the beach and in search and rescue squads, both in in PA and uh Ocean Beach Kiwi, down in Hawke's Bay. So both East and West Coasts there, and unfortunately, yeah, have been involved picking up the pieces in in many of these cases and seeing how it goes wrong. Also Mad Keen Fisher on the rocks, on the boat, anything, and on and around the water. Absolutely loves. It's real cool to be able to sort of use that experience from sort of both lenses, the top down and the bottom up. How does Papinoid point stack up compared to other places around the country? Yeah, I mean it's it's obviously a dangerous spot, right? Um but you know, when we compare it to say Auckland's west coast, they sh they share similarities there. Both incredibly popular to go fishing at. You know, there are some pretty good spots there. There certainly are some good fish that can be caught. Yeah, I guess there's uh potentially a bit more remoteness uh going on down there. You know, it's quite isolated, pretty hard to get to, can get to Auckland's west coast. If you're living out west, you know, there's about a you know 20 or 30 minute drive and there's cell phone reception, whereas Paponoid Point, you know, is quite isolated and can be quite the mission to get to.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

So are guys, you know, putting their lives on the line is is it purely to get a feed, do you reckon, or it's a bit of getting away from, you know, the daily grind of life and having a bit of isolation out at these spots and and being in amongst the wildness?

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, it's it's interesting. You know, there there is a little bit of that going out to get a feed, but also, you know, we've got some really good data now that says that people are just actually going out just to hang out with their mates and and have a good time, you know? There's there's probably quite a low percentage of people that actually require or with the sole intention to get out land-based fishing to catch a feed for their family. Most of it's just people going out and hanging out with their mates or having a bit of an adventure or having a bit of time, time away from the house, sort of thing. So yeah, there's there's multiple reasons there.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

You dive into a lot of the data. So what what does the data say about the types of people that are going to these places? Are they just everyday kiwis or is it a bit of a mix, or what are you seeing out of that?

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah, there's some some really good uh statistics out there in terms of demographs. You know, there's there's quite a diverse uh range of people that are going out there. It's interesting, it's it's predominantly men that are going out, so at least our in our Auckland research, we've got 89% of people that go fishing out there are men. Um and towards the slightly older demographic, so more than half of people um are out there uh 45 years and older. Uh so up from uh 20% in 2006, so they they were a bit younger, but now it's sort of an aging uh fishing population. Um and in terms of you know the the types of ethnic breakdowns there, most fishes, um so about 80% have now lived in New Zealand for over a decade. It's indicating a shift from newly settled populations to more established communities. So back in 2005, 2006, they these groups were quite new to New Zealand. But now they are, you know, obviously quite established and quite experienced.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

It's interesting you say, you know, uh the data's saying they're over 45. I'm almost 45 and did a big fishing missh with my brother and a mate uh the other day. My hips, my knees are still hurting from it. So, like, is it one of those things do you think where you are getting a bit older and maybe you're not so agile around the rocks that you're even more of a threat of um falling in or having something happen to you, you know, as as you're falling into this older demographic? Is there is there a correlation there?

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's probably one of the big things with water safety and water competence in general is actual perception versus perceived. So, you know, how good people think they are in on and around the water versus how good they actually are in on and around the water. And you know, with some of those aging populations, you know, potentially back in in the heyday they were, you know, really competent and confident um and and actually able to, you know, be quite nimble and agile and a lot faster than they you know are potentially now. So yeah, certainly people's perception of of how good they think they are versus how good they actually are is um potentially quite mismatched. Um and also, you know, the risk perception, like people are sort of thinking that their their knowledge and experience at the sea will keep them safe while they're rock fishing, um and same likewise with their swimming ability. But actually, if if we put them in the water and tested that, perhaps we'd say something uh quite a bit different there.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

We've heard Bass's story, and Baz said, you know, the moment he fell in the water, he just thought, man, like it was almost like a shock to the system for him. And he at that moment he had two choices, one to panic or one to just relax and float, and and he chose the latter, he just relaxed and floated. And he reckons that saved his life. Can you kind of explain what happens when you know someone hits the water and that shock reaction of especially you know in the winter months, being in the cold, the wet, and suddenly, as as Baz said, he was about a hundred metres out within 20 or 30 seconds. He couldn't swim against the current. He was just lucky he floated and came in. Can you kind of talk through what's going on rock side when that happens, Josh?

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Yeah,

Cold Water Shock And Floating

SPEAKER_03 8:12

so from um, you know, a pathophysiology perspective, um, you know, when you warm, you're up on the rocks, you're full of adrenaline. Um, you know, you're seeing these big sets come in, or you've caught a big fish, so you're your body's pumped up, you're full of adrenaline, your heart rate's up. Um and then what happens is if you fall into water, particularly cold water, cold water shock's a really big perspective that we should really be thinking about. And that's sort of that that triggers a gasp reflex, which is a parasympathetic nervous system response. Basically, when you hit the water, you've got that really, really sharp reflex, which causes you to inhale. And especially if your head's under the water, you know, you're gonna be inhaling water. Um that's something that you can't really control. So yeah, being being cognizant of that, and then basically, you know, float first is that really key messaging. So yeah, take a second, control your breathing. Um so float um with your head back, keep your mouth above the water so you can sort of acclimatize to that cold water. Breathe, slow your breathing down, you know, really focusing on that because when you are um you know really gassed up, you're gonna be breathing, you're gonna be panicking. But really taking a minute to actually think about your breathing and then yeah, signal, so raise your hand, shout for help, um, and then survive. So, you know, like Baz did, you know, swim, swim out to safety. So being in that white water zone in front of the bricks is probably the worst place that you can be. You know, going further out off the bricks, find that white water is certainly quite safe, especially if you've got flotation. Um, so you're wearing a life jacket or someone's throwing you a form of flotation, and that can be a chili bin, a ball, a bucket, you know, stuff that fishes are taking as well. You know, it doesn't have to be the flash public rescue equipment. That improvised flotation piece plays a huge, huge part. And then yeah, wait, wait for help to arrive, you know, in form of either lifeguards or coast guard or the likes. Yeah, really, really being quite upfront actually about thinking, right, I need to float and thinking about those four steps that float, breathe, signal, survive.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yeah,

Gear Choices That Decide Outcomes

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Baz had his gum boots on, which he said was the first problem, you know, and he had to take those off pretty much straight away. And that helped him float more. He didn't have a life jacket on as well, which is, you know, half the battle to floating. So what are your thoughts on on well, footwear and clothing and also wearing a life jacket when you're fishing?

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've got some really good data on on life jacket wearing. It's really interesting, actually. Like a lot of people actually understand that wearing a life jacket um, you know, does help you out when you're in trouble in the water. And people say that, you know, they should be wearing one. 85% of people agree that wearing a life jacket makes makes fishing a lot safer. Um, but when we look at that and see how many people are actually wearing it, uh, you know, about 41% of people um that we've looked at are actually wearing it. People are inclined to put them on if they're giving them while they're out on the rocks. But yeah, you know, actually wearing them does play a key piece there. But then going into the footwear thing, hey, it's all about wearing the right equipment, making sure you've got the right equipment. So obviously life jackets being one of them. You know, there certainly are some pretty bad options that that people do wear. So, you know, gum boots are one of them. Taking off weak gum boots is is next to impossible. You know, it's really, really hard to do. Um, they also limit your agility as well, you know, like rock hopping. We really want to be in either booties, surfing booties, diving booties, or sneakers, really. So, you know, we've got agile on the rocks, not wearing jeans, not wearing jandles, you know, we're saying that as well. So 60% of fishes that we observe aren't wearing appropriate footwear. You know, so that's a huge statistic. Also, you know, waders, absolutely horrible because you know they fill out with water and are really hard. It's it's not only the the piece of about grip and agility, but it's also when you get into the water, if you do unintentionally end up in the water, those gum boots act as parachutes, and same with waders. So you it's actually really challenging to move in the water. You know, that's it's really, really not hydrodynamic at all. So it sucks a lot of energy from you if you do uh end up in water. Yeah, so it's it's really important to get get the equipment that you're wearing right.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah, I think um the reason a lot of guys go for gum boots or waders or the likes is it kind of protects your ankles on the top bit that when you're on those rocks, especially the pebbly kind of ones and you roll, you get your ankles always get nicked if you're in sand shoes and the likes, and you kind of get the barnacles or an oyster against your ankle, it's almost like a protective barrier on it. So when you've said wetsuit or dive booties, they're they're kind of like a more slim line neoprene version of a gum boot, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Yeah, absolutely. Like um, you know, personally I wear um three millimeter surfing booties and they've got a split toe, so you've still got plenty of agility with your feet there. Basically they come sort of up quite quite high around your ankles, so it saves you from getting rock rash around your ankles. And they're super warm as well, you know, like if you if you do get your feet wet, then you know you're gonna stay nice and warm. Um really good protection and really good grip as well. So yeah, they're they're they're an awesome choice.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

A lot of guys like to wear like the polar fleece kind of vests that you use when you're on the farm or out hunting and those kind of things. Um Can you talk about those a bit? Because they're great when they're dry, they're warm and they're light. But when you're in the water it's a bit of a d different story, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah, a hundred percent. And it sort of comes back to that um that drag piece. If you do uh end up in the water, you know, those big heavy jackets, they do uh obviously they're they're not close to or tight to your body. You know, they absorb a lot of water. So, you know, if you're lifting your arms out of the water and you've got a big thick uh fleece on, you're gonna be using a whole lot of energy. You know, it's it's uh they filler and they're quite heavy. So essentially what what we're looking at is sort of wear thermals. Um, you know, rhinos, a t-shirt, and a windbreaker, you know, that they're all quite thin, they don't absorb that much water. Yeah, there's there's still create a bit of drag there, but in terms of optimal clothing, that's certainly what we're looking at. Um then obviously a life jacket as well, that that also helps keep you warm, you know, if you've got a neoprene model, really nice and and toasty there with some of those models, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

So moving on to like the data, because you you're working off the data, and that's kind of what's leading this Auckland research you're doing as well. What are we seeing as far as trends and and what can we do to ultimately save lives? Are there some insights that you're seeing that you know we can learn from already?

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in terms of the data, I keep referring to it because it's it's the world's most evidence-based fishing program uh in terms of safety. You know, we've got 20 years of data from observations, from interviews, uh with you know, Surf Life Saving New Zealand has got a uh rock fishing advisor or a coastal safety officer out there, uh, you know, Monday to Friday sort of thing, interviewing fishes and handing out life jackets and making some real key safety interventions, which is awesome. And it plays a bit of a wider picture as well. You know, we've got plenty of key recommendations that have fallen out of us. So really prioritizing life jacket use, you know, that that it's it's a simple policy there or or a simple recommendation that should be uptaken, really, because you know, if you're wearing a life jacket, it's it's not the be all and end all, but it certainly helps, you know. It's it helps you keep that flotation. And it also gives you a bit of padding as well. Um, you know, if you do fall in off the water, getting bashed up in the in the rocks is is pretty gnarly.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

So if you've got a bit of an airprint there that helps keep you afloat and provides a bit of protection, it's um so there's different types of life jackets, and I think it's worth saying here, because you see guys with the inflatable um canister life jackets, you see guys with like the real old yellow ones with the big neck brace kind of one, and then and then variations in between. I've heard from guys fishing that you know they've tried the ones, especially with the big neck brace, the big yellow ones, and they kind of can't cast, so they end up taking it off when they're doing the fishing, which obviously is pointless. So what's your recommendation? What are you seeing? And and you know, Gaz told us about a new one, he's been Devon from DPA, and it's made a big difference for him. So can you talk into maybe some of that tech as well and and what we're seeing work for for guys on the rocks?

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, just hearing those stories of people wearing inflatable life jackets, um, obviously they are the probably the least invasive, right? But probably the most useless, actually, on the rocks, to be fair, because if you think about it, they're essentially just an inflatable balloon. And if you do end up in the rocks and you are getting washed in and that deploys, chances are that's going to pop. So, you know, they actually do render themselves useless. And and not to mention, they're also incredibly challenging to move through the water in. You know, they chug you out around your neck, particularly if you don't have them fitted correctly. You know, that they are really restrictive and incredibly hard to swim in. So actually, yeah, using those inflatable ones are are pretty much almost negligent, really, in the in these situations. We really, really want some of the neocream models. You know, Hutch Wilco's got two really good jackets that I'd recommend at the moment. They're the reactor two models and the pro fish. And essentially, these are designed uh for kayaking and for fishing. So you've got that wide range of movement. You've got no side panels, and you know, that's that's a really key one. If I'm casting off the bricks all day, the last thing I want is chafing or restricted range of movement. So, you know, that these models, particularly that pro fish model's um full of pockets, you know, you can put water in the back. You can put I mount my personal locator beacon onto my left collar, so when I'm casting, it doesn't get in the way. I've got a smoke flare in one of the pockets, it's got phone pockets, you know, you can put all your tackle, your ziploc bags with your stray line rigs. You know, that it's not only a safety thing, but it's also convenience as well. You know, actually wearing a life jacket, you can have a whole lot of tackle on you. The last thing you want to be doing is, you know, running up and down the rocks all day, getting all your gear. So if you can have it on you, even better. And it also keeps keeps you safe and keeps you warm as well. So yeah, definitely those models we recommend and yeah, ease on the side of caution when we're thinking about those uh inflatable ones, because yeah, they can um certainly be pretty detrimental if they pop or you're you're trying to swim somewhere in them.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

What about cell phones? Because you know, you drop a cell phone when you're on the rocks and there goes your scream. So a lot of guys don't really have their cell phone on them, or is there another way around um carrying your cell phone so that it doesn't get smashed up on the rocks?

SPEAKER_03 18:02

You know, one of the key things I'm I mentioned that before is having a PLB, so make sure you've always got at least two forms of waterproof communication, right? So, you know, PLB flare, cell phone, VHF radio, you know, the just to name a few really. But cell phones um are really, really good. Make sure you've got them in a waterproof bag. Buy a really like a, you know, you can get them, you know, dime a dozen sort of thing at any of your retailers now and make sure you've got in a waterproof bag. I personally wear mine around my neck and then tuck it down in front of my life jacket. Um so then it's between me and the neoprene padding. So, like I was mentioning mentioning before, you know, they absorb a bit of uh impact if you do brush up against the rocks or something like that. So yeah, keep keep it on you, keep it tucked down uh between your chest and your life jacket. Um and you know, it's it's pretty much bulletproof down there.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

So

Reading Swell And Planning Exits

SPEAKER_02 18:49

when we're talking to Baz, he talked about the day he ended up in the water and he says he was there overnight and he watched in the morning, and he's he knew it was a big swell, probably the biggest swell he'd seen. But the tide was going out, so he thought, well, it's gonna get further and further away from me. However, it didn't because a rogue wave came through and got him. Can you kind of go through a a bit of what you would recommend when you're scouting out a location and um any of the knowledge you've picked up from from doing this work on on what to look out for?

SPEAKER_03 19:24

So, you know, the term rogue wave, um, you know, it's in terms of our our rock fishing stuff, it very rarely happens. We really need to be thinking about actually, particularly on the West Coast, you know, we're thinking about our shifter sets. So about every 15 minutes or so, you're gonna get a a set that's exponentially bigger than the rest. So, you know, that plays a really key part in into that preparation piece. So when you get to the site, really taking 15 minutes to sit there, think about your action plan. So, you know, watch where the water's coming out, watch your dry spots on the rocks and and just note that if they're if the rocks are wet, there's water going over them. So that is not a safe place to be. So making sure that, you know, when you get to the site, you're sitting there, you're making a plan. You know, we put all this preparation into finding fish, but you know, we don't often think about finding our way home. So stop, observe, watch the waves, watch the patterns, think about an exit plan. So if you do end up in the water, where's gonna be a safe place that you know potentially you can swim to? Where's my gear going to be nice and dry? Where am I gonna retrieve a fish? And you know, where you're making this plane, yeah, really just taking the time to observe the sets, see what the wind and see what the waves are doing. Is the platform that you're you're aiming to fish going to be suitable? Because many times, you know, I've gone out thinking I'll fish your platform and after sitting there for sort of 15 minutes, actually, you know, seeing some of those sets wash over the front of the rocks and thinking, no, you know, I'm gonna move around the points a wee bit more, so I'm I'm in a safer spot. So yeah, it's really about taking the time. Uh and it is hard, you know, when you get to your fishing spot, the last thing you do is want to hang out and wait. But actually, you know, spending that time for to prepare your plan uh is a really key aspect there because yeah, like I say, every 15 or so minutes you will get a sort of an unexpected set come along that will be bigger. So making sure you're aware of actually how that interaction between the swell and the rocks is playing out over time.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

The

Safety Controls Without Closing Access

SPEAKER_02 21:14

easy way to address Pope Nouri point is to just close it down. But as we've heard during this podcast, is you do that, you're kind of pushing people to other places. So you've you've stopped one place which is I've got a problem, but where are these guys going to go? Maybe even a more dangerous, unknown spot that um has no real easy access, and and that creates a whole lot of other um questions and issues. What do you see from the data? Because you you guys have a pretty good insight into where people are on the coast and and things like that, uh looking at cell phone data and and other bits. Can can you kind of talk into how spread are people up and down the coast, or are they actually still just going to the the known spots?

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah. So So I mean you mentioned that cell phone data, and that that's a really key piece of evidence that we can use to, you know, plan interventions, plan safety stuff, plan uh feed on the ground interactions with fishes.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

And just just for anyone who's got a tinfoil hat and a bit paranoid, you can't see who they are or anything like that, can you? You don't know mic's out skiving off work and having a fish, you can't tell it's meat, can you?

SPEAKER_03 22:22

No, no, that that's exactly it. It's all all anonymized data, and that just turns into a heat map. So essentially, you know, we can just see where congregations of people are. Um and you know, at some of these rock fishing spots, it's you know pretty clear to see that, you know, if there's a heat map here and it's down a pretty beaten woolly track, you know, people are more likely to be fishing there. So yeah, it is certainly all anonymised. But you know, as I say, it certainly helps, you know, either prioritizing interventions, um feet on the ground, because you know some of these spots are pretty hard to get to, so maximising our engagement there. But yeah, going back to the closure, I mean, you know, it's it's really i if it does get closed, it's just gonna create a forbidden fruit sort of thing, right? It's um, you know, think about other sectors, think about other industries that have closed access or put up fences, you know, particularly thinking about you know bridges and stuff like that, where people like to pop money's off, you know, fences get put up. People just climb to the top of the fence and run off anyway. So, you know, we're we're really all about creating that safe, open access, right? Enabling people to do stuff, but do it safely. You know, and there's there's three really key points that come out of that. So engineering controls, administrative controls, and PPE promotion. So engineering stuff, so formalizing access tracks, life rings, throw ropes, improved signage, rock anchor points, basically improving uh mobile coverage as well, administrative controls, so basically looking at community education, uh digital safety alerts, bilingual signage, life jacket hubs, lens and feet on the ground education, and then PPE promotion, so you know, wearing life jackets, footwear, clothing, tethers, potentially looking at some harnesses for people to use on those rock anchor points, reinforcing the communication devices and personal locator beacons. Yeah, so uh yeah, we're we're all about keeping keeping it open, but making it as safe as as we possibly can. Otherwise, yeah, like I say, it's just gonna create a a forbidden fruit thing. People are gonna go there anyway, or potentially look at other, you know, more remote locations or harder to get to ledges around the coast where perhaps there aren't any of these controls in place.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

What's your thinking on spots if we take kind of Papua Nui Point as that example and look up to Auckland's West Coast, which is where where you're involved in, you've got places like Fotipoo, which has that kind of feeling to it. So does Bethel's because we know people have have have died at these spots. Does that impact people coming to the spot or are they uh new New Zealanders who don't really feel or pull into that knowledge? Where do you think that comes from? Is you know, like I talk to other fishers and they go, geez, Fatipo's a a spooky spot at the nine pit, or you know, Bethel's I've had a close call. Do you think that's what's happening to Papua Nui Point? Um and is is there a link to to your spots like that as well, that they almost become a l a little bit tapu?

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Yeah, certainly. Um I'm I'm a big believer in that, and I know a lot of people are as well, you know, that there are those airy feelings out there, and I think it it's it's almost humbling. You know, you you stop and you think and you you know that that stuff has happened here. But yeah, I'm not too sure how people sort of interrelate that between, you know, or whether that's going to make a decision for them to say, Oh, I'm not gonna fish here anymore, sort of thing. So yeah, it's it's a really interesting point, and I'd hope that people would um you know realise that uh potentially some of these things have happened and you know, either have a think about their behaviour or think about their decision to go fish there in certain days. Um, Bethel's uh walking down to the beach to get out to any of those ledges there. There's a sign on the lifeguard tower that that says X amount of people have drowned here this summer. And you know, every time I see that, it's it's really humbling. Um and it really makes me stop and think about you know my decisions. Um and there's some similar spots in Australia where you know they've got signs at their rock fishing spots, basically saying this many people have uh have drowned here rock fishing this year. And you know, talking to some of those guys on the bricks over in Australia, it's they know, but uh, you know, it doesn't really change their behaviours. But yeah, in terms of New Zealand, not entirely sure.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Is there a bit we can learn from oursy mates? Because they're doing things like using AI cameras to watch the water and you know, it notifies if people fall in. You've been over there? Have a look. What what have you learned from Australia?

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Yeah, I mean, Australia's got some really awesome, um, awesome educational programs over there. They've got some really big investment in safety infrastructure over there. So, yeah, some of their AI cameras on some of the um some of the coasts down there in New South Wales is is phenomenal. Basically, it's uh an AI camera there that sort of picks up how many people are fishing on the ledge and if they're there one minute and then they're not, basically the the AI algorithm can pick that up and send off um you know uh warnings to you know lifeguards or the the marine rescue over there where they can uh then respond accordingly. So pretty pretty awesome um in terms of their infrastructure there. And also uh giving away some free life jackets at the end of uh their courses is pretty awesome. Um and they've also got some legislation around actually you have to wear life jackets on the rocks um at some of these spots. Um they're looking to expand that uh in New South Wales there further down into Chyma. So there's some quite popular fishing spots there, but also some some of the most deadly spots in Australia down there as well. So yeah, they're they're really making some really good headway in terms of the life jackets and some of their safety infrastructure, which is awesome to see. Um and we'd love to pick some of that up over here and and make a difference.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Awesome, bro. Um those were my main questions. There anything else you want to like add to it that we may have missed or to talk about, like um how how Auckland's going, I guess, is one that we haven't really hit too much in on who's involved and you know how you see that going this summer.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, we've got some really key stats that we're trying to drop. So all the 85% of people know that wearing life jackets makes them you know safer and on and around the rocks. Only 29% of fishes were wearing them during observations. 60% wore unsafe footwear, like gumboots. So again, really trying to focus in on that, wearing the right gear. 21% of people fish alone, so no backup, no one to call for help, no one to provide flotation, and especially if you know people aren't carrying cell phones or not carrying any forms to call for calms, if they're falling in the water, you know that there's not much out there that can help them. Basically, one in four fishes have performed a rescue. Uh so that's a really huge statistic. You know, people again with the attitude saying, Oh, sure, we're right, it's not gonna happen to me. Statistically speaking, if there's four of you on the rocks, one of you is either gonna end up in the drain or have performed a rescue before. So actually empowering fishes to be able to um provide assistance, really. So that rescue stuff, basically being able to do that safely. So providing flotation, step number one, really, really key. Call for help, making sure you've got that comms plan, making sure you know where you've got a cell phone service to call for help or a PLB that you can activate. And basically, yeah, just trying to really, really be aware that you know that it's not going to happen to me attitude needs to change because statistically speaking, it will. Top behavior themes as well. We sort of touched on it earlier on, but overconfidence and actual bullets, you know, being being confident's one thing, but when you actually end up in the water, it's quite a humbling experience. So I challenge people to get in the pool, practice your floating, practice your swimming. You know, it's um you don't drive a car without learning how to do it first, right? So if you're if you're falling in the water and you think you're a good swimmer, when was the last time you actually swim? So give it a go. Um, you know, basically looking at risky gear retrieval is another one of those uh really key risk factors, so going down the bricks to retrieve snagged gear. And I know it's so hard, you know. I'm I'm all about uh you know guardianship and and bringing all my rubbish home, bringing everything home and leaving nothing there but footprints and basically getting gear stuck on the rocks is super hard because you've got to go down and and try and retrieve it. But unfortunately, that's one of the key risk behaviors. People are going down, the gear's getting snagged and they're getting washed off the rocks. So, you know, it's it's it's a really hard one, ethically. But yeah, keeping yourself safe is obviously priority there.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah, when a when a burly bag is thirty dollars for a salmon burley or something, and you're going to another spot, you're trying to grab that burly bag, but but that's somewhere you know you could really come a cropper, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Yeah, no, exactly. Hey, and and same goes with you know retrieving fish as well, like going down the brooks to retrieve fish. Yeah, you you want to get that trophy fish, but you know, putting yourself at risk to do it, it's yeah, it's it's a really hard one, ethically. But you know, that comes back to having the right gear as well, like you know, getting yourself a a telescopic gaff or a telescopic net or something, you know, so you can stay dry, you can stay above the waterline. You're not in that in that wet zone on the rocks where it's slippery, but you've got the waves coming, you know, which is actually where a lot of those incidents are are likely happening as well, you know, when people are going down to retrieve gear or retrieve fish, ending up in the water unexpectedly there. Turning backs to waves is another huge one that we see. Like um, you know, you you never turn your back where you're crossing a railway line, right? So, you know, you want to be able to see what's coming. It's it's really important to keep facing the waves. Because like I say, you know, every 15 minutes or so you're gonna have another big set coming in. There's some really interesting YouTube flips out there. If you search Big Swell at Hill 60 on YouTube, there's a a really, really cool uh video, or not so cool, depending on how you look at it, of a fishing spot uh in New South Wales there, and it's it's basically there's a couple of guys filming, um, and there's probably five or so guys fishing out on the point. And the guys filming have seen this set coming, but there's guys casting lures um and looking down a right on the water's edge, and basically this huge spell comes through and washes them all off just because they're simply not looking. That don't that they're not looking at what's coming towards them, more interested in looking down at their feet. So it's it's a real key example there that you can actually see what's happening. And then your environmental awareness, so understand how the waves work, understand how the weather interacts. So checking the weather, checking the tides, but actually being aware of what you're looking for, uh so how that swell interacts with the rock platforms. If you get a south southwest swell and you're fishing a southwest to platform, a platform facing south, it's um probably not a great recipe. So can you fish a northeast facing platform in a southwest swell? So thinking about all those different interactions. I guess I probably should talk about our five key safety messages. So this is what you guys are promoting for rock fishing? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this is this is really key messaging that basically will help you keep safe in on and around the water, in on around the rocks while you're fishing. So that first one we've touched on it quite a bit is knowing how to float. So it's a really key one. So only go fishing uh from the rocks. If you know how to float well, always wear a life jacket, take a flotation device, like a life ring or a bucket or a chili bin with you. Life jackets will increase your chance of survival if you fall in, right? And that's what I was saying as well. Go challenge yourself, get to the pool and have a go, you know, get in the water and actually check out. Oh, can I swim a hundred meters without stopping or touching the bottom? Can I float for five minutes? Get in with your life jacket, you know? Get in the pool um with your life jacket. Lots of people, you know, wear them, but potentially have never been in the water um and had to go floating. So can you swim a hundred meters in your life jacket? Do it in the pool, give it a go. I find the safest place is the second key message there. So again, check conditions, tide, swell, weather, local hazards, pop into local tackle stores, have a yarn. Say I'm I'm planning on heading to this spot, they'll give you some advice, they'll tell you what you need to be aware of. Face the ocean, be alert for large waves. A really cool, cool one that I basically like to utilize at the moment is Google Earth. You can look back in time and some of these rock ledges, and basically if you flip between enough of them, you can see high tide, low tide, big swell, no swell. So if you're going to a spot for the first time, pop in and have a yarn at your local tackle store and have a look online. Do a real good recce on Google Earth and figure it out, you know, making sure you've got that preparation, eh? Like looking at those ledges, looking where you can fish in different swells, how to get there, where's your access points, where's your egress points? And then yeah, the third tip, if in doubt, stay out. So, you know, if it looks too gnarly, don't go, you know. If fish at the supermarket, what's that, $50 a kilo or something? So if you're getting a two kilo snapper, you've just valued your life at a hundred bucks. It's that simple. If in doubt, stay out. Uh take care of yourself and others. Always fish together. So make make sure you're taking a mate, because stuff can happen real quick. And if you're by yourself, uh especially out in some of these ledges, you know, you're you're you're pretty pretty toast if you're not with someone that can call for help or provide flotation with you to help keep you afloat. Uh and know how to get help. It's a real key one. Always make sure you've got your mobile phone and at least two forms of waterproof communication. Putting your phone in a dry bag, taking a PLB or even hiring a PLB. Um, you know, you can hire these from iSights or Doc. You know, I always take a smoke flare or um something like that as well, and a VHF radio and a whistle. So I've got you know heaps of forms of communication. That's a real key one. To find out more, visit Journey Prevention Auckland. We've got free e-learning modules. So basically give that a go. And yeah, there's plenty of other resources up there that you can use to stay safe in on and around the water and while you're fishing.

What A Drowning Leaves Behind

SPEAKER_02 35:15

When it does go wrong, when it when it goes bad and someone drowns, what's it like at the other end with surf life saving and you guys and that when you have to have these conversations with family members and others like this because this is this is where the rubber meets the road and it's why we're doing all this, because when a life is lost off the rocks, it creates a massive hole in a community, just all around it. The the volunteers, surf rescuers and coast guard guys, the everyone feels it, you know, and I think it's it's worth ending on that point of just just understanding, you know, the the other side of things when it goes wrong.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Yeah, 100%. Um so you know, have having been on on those sides before, it's uh I'll sort of start from the top. I mean, you get a job, you see something come through, and and basically your heart drops. So as a as a volunteer responder, um, you see some details about you know someone being swept off the rocks and you know you're sweating because you know how time critical it is. Drilling happens in less than 60 seconds, so you know, from submersion. So you know that um you don't have long and you know often that you're gonna be a lot longer than 60 seconds away. So it's really playing on your mind, it's really horrible. And you know that you know, if you're if you're voluntarily responding, you're you're with your mates, you're probably you know having a barbecue somewhere and you've just got to pack up and run. Incredibly high stress for all involved. Where at the end of the day, you know, if volunteer self lifeguards are are putting their their lives on the line to come and respond to you, you know, they're getting in the water, really highly skilled people. Um, but at the end of the day, you know, no one's immune to it. So getting out there, putting themselves at risk to come and help you out, that's something that they're willing to do. But at the end of the day, you're putting other people in trouble as well, uh, or potentially causing them uh trouble as well. So yeah, that that's it's it's really stressful, it's really horrible, really high high pace because we know it's really time critical. And then, you know, either retrieving someone as best case scenario, still alive and and conscious and able to talk to you and tell you their story and tell everyone else their story. But unfortunately, you know, it it doesn't happen all that often where it's that best case scenario, you know, people are potentially not prepared, don't have the right gear on, don't have a life jacket on. You know, wearing a life jacket again increases your chances of survival so much because it buys you that extra time for rescuers to be able to pick you up. And then, you know, afterwards in an unsuccessful rescue, you know, dealing with family, you know, with Fana is incredibly challenging. Breaking the news, that's it's probably one of the worst things I've ever done. So it's that's really, really horrible having to tell someone that their loved one has passed away. It is incredibly humbling. It is, yeah, it is just one of the the trickiest things you'll ever have to do. So there's uh you know, when you fall in the water off the rocks, you know, it's not just about you, it's it's a really big picture thing. There are so many people involved. There's your fano, there's your colleagues, uh, there's your friends, uh that all want you to come home from a day's fishing. I mean, if it doesn't go well, then uh, you know, it's it impacts a huge amount of people. It's communities, it's workplaces, uh, it's it's far now. Um, so yeah, really doing as much as you possibly can to make sure you come home safely. We spend so much time finding fish, but making sure we find our way home.

Council View From Papua Nui Point

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Here's Glenn Morgan, Open Spaces Manager for Waikato District Council.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

My name's Glenn Morgan. I'm what they call the Open Spaces Services Manager for Waikato District Council. What does that mean? That means I support the team who deliver on the maintenance and management of all our parks and reserves across the Waikedo District, but also deliver a lot of capital projects and the like across across their region. Yeah. We uh we have basically about twenty-six odd parks we manage. Two hundred and seventy-one of them are actively managed at this point in time. It's quite a big portfolio. And it's basically everything without a roof across the district. Lots of nature reserves, cemeteries, parks and the like, marginal strips, coastal areas. Yeah, all kinds of all kinds of weird and wonderful things car parks, sports grounds, everything and anything to do with the outside. Papanoe Point is effectively located between Fangara Raglan and Ruapuki Beach. It's a coastal outcrop there. It's it's very steep, it's very challenging to get down. There's informal tracks to the site, there's a long history of recreational fishing at the site, but there's also a deeper um history to the past and I suppose early um early establishment of local hapu and iwi toy fenua at the site as well, and there's a deep history there as well. So um yeah, she's a very challenging spot, but it is a spot that enables people to get very close to um the fishing and the rocks and whatever activities they want to take undertake down on the the site there. Um yeah. In terms of the dynamic of the site, I suppose my affiliation to it goes back about eleven or twelve years. So I before I was with council, I actively worked um for the Department of Conservation. And that was right from scrubbing the toilets around the mountain there and cutting the tracks and doing everything else to actively going down, picking up the rubbish down the point. Um at that time we're trying to maintain the the phone that used to be out there, looking at how access could be improved. But there that was very much um sort of in partnership with council as well at that time, but nothing was formalised at that stage in terms of a lot of the access. It was just a a gate and a track across the paddock. These days you see the access is a lot more formalised. There's a track into it, there's a car park there as well, which uh serves as a really good lookout or uh provides coastal vistas along the coast, but it also enables this this access to one of your most dangerous sites in terms of rock fishing across the country. Um when we're talking about the people involved, yes, Waikato District Council has a an easement, an access way across there and maintains and manages a a car park and a signage there. Um there's easements across private land and further reserve land down onto the marginal strip, and the Department of Conservation um have ownership and to a degree um manage the land along the Esplanade strip to a certain level of service. And that's not in terms of um active visitor management but maintaining some of the assets down there that support around uh safety mitigation and the like rather than facilitating visitor access to the site. Everyone's looking, especially in this day and age, a good place just to go and get a feed, you know, somewhere that's accessible doesn't seem to be uh or or provide accessibility challenges, doesn't seem to hold people back these days. It's more about providing for the family, getting onto good resources, and uh Papanoe Point happens to be one of these places that um you know it's very well known across some of our our communities or our more recent communities and our vulnerable visitors, um, that it is a good place to go. You know, the world is very connected these days. There are no secrets or always to hide from anything, and that that helps. I mean, there's active communication lines all over these communities. So I suppose the priority is in terms of all our stakeholders and partners, is if people are going to go to these sites, number one, they need to be well educated, well informed, but also they need to do everything within their their possible power and our power keep them safe in a space that's highly you know, presents uh high risk to the public and is uh really dynamic at times too. The only way forward really is in partnership 100%. It's listening to, you know, all all the views and potential controls out there, but you say it can be can be challenging working in a group. We know at times there's a lot of hooey and not a lot of dooey in some context. Some of us are just really focused about you know how we can um I suppose we ask ourselves the question, are we doing everything we can do um to keep people safe and keep people alive at this site when some of us have been I think I'm up to about the eleventh or twelfth person on my watch that um have had visibility of Passing away at this site. So when you're you're looking in that context, it's very close to a a lot of us. And it's just what can we tangibly do in terms of behaviour change or or um support people around that space. And I think everyone wants the same things. It's just managing um, I suppose, those behaviours and the priorities of the individuals too around that.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Some people think the easy way is just close it off, just put up a big gate, don't let people get in there. But for a lot of reasons, and we can kind of dive into some of those. It's not not as simple as locking it off, is it?

SPEAKER_00 44:38

No, not in any way at all. I mean, like you could lock it off, people are still gonna go there. No, um people have been fishing there generationally, you know, so it's it's not about restricting or stopping people. Now there is I mean closing access is definitely one of the options on the table, but it's not the only option. It has its pros and cons. But if it was to be pursued, it would have to be a long-term multi-agency approach, and that has implications, you know, not just at a local level, but at a national level too. And for us who work in this space, sort of like it's not just all about Papua Nui Point. This is actually a national issue. It's just how do we how do we attack this consistently, you know, across all our spaces? Because you talk to any rockfishers and they'll tell you, hey, you know, the challenges you're facing where we are are not isolated just to us. So for us to think it's just all about us in that site would sort of be but selfish to a degree. So that's where if we can, we're trying to tap in and build those partnerships at a national level as well, to say, actually, how can we tackle this for the benefit and on behalf of everyone? Yes, Papua Nui Point has its own idiosyncrasies and its own challenges, and all sites do, but how can we deal with this in a consistent fashion? Um, you know, and that's that's why your partnerships are so key because working across your stakeholders, water safety, New Zealand, drowning prevention, TRI, swimming Waikato, even like search and rescue, there's the opportunity to connect with our communities. We're currently actively establishing like life jacket hubs across the region, too. We've been connecting in with um the DPA, sport fishing, New Zealand, the rock fishes as well. Recently, just uh not reinvent the wheel, but learn the lessons that are all already being rolled out in other places. So, how can we implement them not just at this site, but in a district-wide sense, I suppose, for all rock fishing spots that grows across the Waikado district is our focus at this point in time. 100% we're getting those up and running. Water Safety New Zealand's been doing some great work with our water water safety advocate who's who's based down at Papenui Point at the moment. Rob Hewitt's overseeing a lot of that program and the establishment of Life Jacket Hubs. The key thing for us is just how do we coordinate the education piece, the information piece, providing accessibility for our communities to the its resources, and just putting that awareness out there that if you are gonna go rock fishing, number one, make sure you've got a PFD or a personal, you know, flotation ad life jackets, because uh it may not be if, it may be when you end up in the drink, and depending where you are, that may have some pretty serious implications. We're we're really connected to our oceans, we're connected to our bush, you know, we're connected to our our rivers all across, and that's just who we are as a people. To sort of deny that is, you know, ignoring who you are to a degree in some places, but it's also, hey, if we can provide um the opportunities of alternative places or places where you're not putting yourself at risk, places where you can actually guarantee that your family that you will be coming home, that's probably of a benefit and something we can definitely pull our socks up on and advocate for and provide that messaging at a place like Papua Nui Point two, because a lot of it is, hey, where are the alternatives if they're not obvious to you when you've planned a day and you go to go to places like that? What price do you put on a life? And if you have that type of technology across your ten, you know, most at-risk flat spots in New Zealand, I'd say that's a pretty, pretty cheap price to pay if it's gonna uh save people in the process of undertaking these activities. If you're gonna go and undertake any kind of activity, you normally have the the gear you require, you think about, you know, I'm quite active in the hunting space, you know. I'm not going out there without a gun or without a bow generally, or um, you know, the appropriate equipment I need to undertake, you know, that might be a PLB as well, or even just a bandage or things to wrap around me if things go bad. You know, you're it's horses for courses, so you want to make sure you're prepared when you're doing these things, definitely. Yeah, those those are pretty general challenges we face across accounts all the time. Vandalism of assets, you know, theft of assets and the like. Sometimes there's a certain uh I know certain individuals just think, you know, these resources are specifically for them, um, rather than the greater good of the community. Yet again, it's just supporting, I suppose, that mentality shift that actually these things are there for a purpose. Um, think about the impacts of your actions, you know, and that what they have on other people. Um there's a challenging place down at Papua Nui Point. One of our sort of key challenges was like, if we're not prepared to actually resource or have our own staff down there, or if I'm not even prepared to go down there these days, I used to go down there all the time, but I don't want to go down there anymore because of obvious reasons. But if I'm not prepared to go down, I can't be advocating for other people to go down there, put resources in place and the like and and get them to do something I wouldn't do effectively. So yeah, it's always a tough one putting in things like that because it sort of to a degree can also be perceived as that, you know, active maintenance and management of a space that you really don't want to support people going to. And I think that's where we've sort of gotten to the space where we're at at the moment is through multiple multiple previous incidents, multiple previous recommendations, all these things have come out of previous coronial requests, and phones have been put in, land's been purchased, roads have been put in, car parks have been put in, all to facilitate safer initiatives, but it's also facilitated this greater and more accessible piece to put people at risk. It's all about that education, but it's also about that constant review of what we are doing, what messaging is out there, where are the opportunities for that. So I know through our police search and rescue team and our local detective Frank Ramos, he's very much engaged with the Filipino community in Hamilton. Um, and there's a lot of advocacy in that space as well, so education programs and the like. I think there's a life check at hub being established if it hasn't already been established there as well. So it's targeting those high-risk communities and actively engaging with them. But that doesn't capture everyone as well. As you've seen, the recent coronial um inquest that's just come out. Mike, um, signage will only go so far. We all know that. It's all depends on how well you engage with it. Baz's case, classic example, you know, if you're not actively engaged with these things, it basically means nothing to you. It's like you've got to take that personal responsibility. And I suppose think about that bigger bigger picture whether the outcomes you want on the day, it's not just about going out and getting a feed and getting a fish. It's about going out, getting a feed, getting a fish, and going home to to mum and the kids and whoever else it might be in one piece, you know. It's just once you're in the drink, what do you do then? You know? Is what it comes down to when we know at a place like Papua Nui, chances are you gotta float until rescue. So here you're gonna do that, and depending on the season, that's where it gets really challenging. And we know from the stats that in that May, August period, sometimes early spring, that's when the biggest trend in people, you know, falling in the water occurring at this space in those uh are not your warmest times of the year. Yeah, so if you're looking at Papanoyu Point, I'd say the first thing is don't fish there. I know I know people will say um for me you gotta have a life jacket. You've got to have a life jacket if you're gonna be rick and rock fishing along our our coast signs. You know, um let people know you go in there. Um yes, you can fish in groups, but this data and statistics also tell you that that doesn't necessarily save you either. Um and it's really that that mental shift in making these things normal, but it's also getting gear for you that's that's fit for purpose, and I know there's a lot, a lot better technology out there in terms of life jackets, and that you can now get that actually enable you to fish or undertake your activities um that you want to do and don't inhibit you, don't create the previous issues of the old ones. Um so yeah, look at the technology, look at what best practices, your PLBs, your life jackets, look after yourself, make a plan, tell people where you're going, check the conditions, you know, all your standard sort of stuff. I mean, I'm probably telling you how to suck eggs here, Mike. And I suppose that's the I the challenges people like me and the people I'm working with the facing all the time. It's like, hey, we're all about these activities, getting out in the space. I mean, I know I say I don't fish that much, but I grew up land-based fishing out the East Cape, out South Point, out Taurunga back in the day with my dad, you know, coastally as well, freshwater fishing and the like. But it's um it's the impact it has in terms of people who are, I suppose, affecting the rescues who are going out there, undertaking the searches, you know, the land administers, um the families who are connected to these spaces. Most of all, I mean now our toy fennel, our money fennel at place too. This is just like a constant tucky that also hangs around their neck. Now I can't speak for them, but I know this impacts them and um you know the connection and the wire of the land and this place every time this occurs. There's a massive tax, there's a massive expectation. It's a real challenge to manage and mitigate and other people from place who are always at place who are bearing these burdens as well, so we can't downplay that either. I I just think what I think we need some consistency and some high-level guidelines. I mean, we're not we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's really good controls in place. I mean, over in Aussie they have many like rock fishing black spots identified in these places, there are controls, there's bylaws, there's other things to make, you know, um safety behaviors or ways you manage or or fish in these spaces to reduce that risk. You know, like you say, there are those those eyelets, those anchor points, there's other things in place there. There's the cameras that actually manage these things. So it's just how do we tackle this in a national sense? I know that can be challenging and take time, but also if we're doing it in a local sense, not creating something that creates complexity later on for everyone else across the country in terms of the outcomes of those things. Now we're trying to we're trying to keep things alive, keep the conversation alive, um, trying to move forward with actions, but we're always constantly aware it's not just about us, it's not about the land administrators, it's not about the people we have direct interests, it's actually about everyone. So how do we balance that? Because we all want the same thing. You know, it's it's a pretty tough space, and like through my experience, you know, it was always a sort of cycle of okay, someone gets washed off, there's a fatality, everything flares up, then it settles down again, everyone forgets it until the next fatality, you know? Then it flares up again, all these recommendations come out, you know, more signage, do this, do this, do that, and then it settles down nothing again. You know, flares up again. So it's like, how can we how can we keep it alive in a national context and try and you know it'd be great to use Papanui as a test case, but it's also it it's quite unique in itself as well in some of its aspects. So um it's just trying to balance and manage that and keep your foot constantly on the gas, don't let it off. And with the overarching thing of, hey, we're not always gonna get it right, and we're not always the experts in this field, but um keep doing whatever we can do to save lives. I mean it's a singular focus really, but that's ideally in partnership with everyone. I suppose I'd just add that like in terms of I just want to add the piece around in terms of council, what's our our role? I'm very much a a public servant. So my role is to, you know, sort of navigate the processes within council between the aspirations of our communities and providing really good outcomes for them, navigating that process through to get decisions from our council or elected members. So the whole governance of everything. So I'm just here to try to balance those two things to get to tangible outcomes. Because if we're not doing that, then we're going bloody nowhere. And it's not about me or the decisions I can make or me holding budgets or any authority. This is about navigating that process from one side to the other, and then how does that fit in with all the other processes in play in the land tenure? So yeah, and then the other partners. How can we provide these experiences but in a safe and sustainable way effectively? And that's really challenging uh in the space cycles.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

That was Josh Kameney from Drowning Prevention Alteroa and Glenn Morgan from Waikano District

Key Takeaways And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Council. Baza's story shows how quickly things can go wrong. But what Josh and Glenn have shared shows something else: that these incidents are not random. There's patterns, there's warning signs, and there's things we can do differently. Life jackets, fishing with a mate, watching the conditions, and making sure we respect places that have already taken way too many lives. If Baz's story made you think about the way you fish, then this episode has done its job. If you rock fish, talk about this with your mates, share the story, start the conversation. Because the goal is simple everyone who goes fishing should come home safe to their friends, family, fauna. This has been the NZSFC Pod and Reel Podcast. I'm Mike Plant from the New Zealand Sport Fishing Council. Thanks for listening.