The Jewish Singer

The Sound of Tznius: a deep dive into the frum music scene - with Lizzi Serling

• Nechama Leah Dahan • Season 1 • Episode 18

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This is an exciting and controversial episode! I'm joined by Lizzi Serling, singer and vocal-coach-extraordinaire, as we discuss what constitutes Jewish music and the considerations we must make as female singers in the frum music industry. 

Nechama Leah:

Hello and welcome back to the Jewish Singer Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today is a really, really exciting episode. A long time in the making. I have my very first guest on the podcast, Lizzie Serling. Who is an amazing singer and vocal coach, concert leader, kumzitz, giver, and she is a dear friend of mine. And I am so excited to have her on the podcast. I think you're really going to get a lot out of our conversation. We are talking about what is Jewish music, what constitutes Jewish music today. And if you enjoy this episode, don't forget to share it with your friends. And without further ado Okay. Okay. Lizzie Serling. Thank you. so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Podcast. Yay. I'm so excited. You're my first guest. Mmm. So exciting. Up until now it's been just me. So I'm very excited to have you. Awesome. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So can you start by just telling me a little bit, telling whoever's listening a little bit about your background in music and how you got here?

Lizzi Serling:

Sure. Um, so I am, I'll start from today and then I'll rewind. So I am a vocal coach and musician. Transcribed singer. Um, so I get to sing all day for work, um, singing with other people, teaching people how to sing women and girls. And then I also play concerts, comes it says, um, and wherever people have me, um, I got into this because I actually started, uh, in show business professionally when I was four years old. I'm 32 now, um, in California, that's when I got my agent and started working and, uh, and yeah, I, I did a lot of work in musical theater, some in commercials and other, you know, professional work as a kid, took a little break for high school. Um, and then I came to Israel when I was 17 and became religious. I didn't grow up religious. And then, um, Um, almost immediately started teaching, just starting to kind of like give over what I had, like a little of what I had, um, learned. And then that turned into my main passion as I taught more and more and I saw what it's like to, Empower women and girls to use their voices and I've learned a lot about technique along the way by seeing what worked and problem solving with people and And then that became my main passion and business and I love it a lot Amazing and

Nechama Leah:

I'm your biggest fan by the way. I'm your if you guys didn't know Lizzie is amazing Okay, so was wondering, first of all, this is just a random question before we kind of get into the meat and potatoes, but yeah, um, what kind of voice lessons or like a voice training did you have when you were doing all of that crazy professional acting?

Lizzi Serling:

So I did have vocal coaches, like I had one for, um, contemporary pop and then I had one That I did opera with specifically, but also I feel like the most I learned the most on the job. So when I was doing a production, then, um, the musical director, the work that I did together with the musical director of the productions that I was in really taught me a lot about music and about a lot about. Vocal technique and, then just being surrounded by really talented actors, because so a lot of shows before they open on Broadway in New York, they open in California, to put it in front of a regional audience and test it out. So I had the opportunity to work with some really amazing Broadway directors and actors and singers. And so I was like, A sponge soaking up what I saw them do and just trying to emulate that. Um, and so a lot of it was just sort of copying, you

Nechama Leah:

know. So cool. Oh, I'm jealous. Wholly jealous, as they say. So obviously today you're singing more Jewish music. And can, can you tell me a little bit about that transformation or that transition into singing Jewish music and how that felt for you

sure, sure.

Lizzi Serling:

So, it's been a process. You know, it's my experience with transitioning from non Jewish music to Jewish music Was very much a reflection of just my Baal Tshuva process in general Which I know you relate to, right? Which is like it has its ups and it has its downs it has its moments of feeling of extreme connection and then it's moments of feeling of like loss of identity and confusion and When I first, first came to Israel, I, I immediately, the thing I connected to was the music that I was hearing. So specifically my first time at the Kotel on a Friday night, hearing the women singing Kabbalas Shabbos. And like, I had such an intense emotional experience, right? Or hearing like the Zmiros. It was really interesting because almost immediately, like even when I was really newly frum, it was like my, I absorbed. these niggunim and these zemiros, and I felt like I knew them already. It was like I remembered them, even though I had never heard them before, which I know sounds very woo woo. Um, but, um, yes, we're pretty

woo woo. Woy, woy.

Nechama Leah:

Woy, woy. My daughter, she doesn't know how to say O's that aren't O's. She says, can you tell me a story? Oh, really? She's joking, I think. She knows it's funny. Oh, that's

Lizzi Serling:

so funny.

Nechama Leah:

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

I had a friend once who called it COVID. And we died. Or maybe it was Karina, I don't know. Whatever it was, but we were cracking up. We were cracking up. Um, anyway, so.

Nechama Leah:

Sorry to interrupt you. It's just that I, I, I noticed that you do know so much Jewish music. Karina. I mean, I guess we've been from for a while now, but you know, the music and sing the music as if it's. It's just like very second nature to you. And I'm very in awe about that because I, I struggle with that of knowing Jewish music, you know?

Lizzi Serling:

Yeah. I mean, uh, part of that is just whatever this weird connection is of almost like past life. Like I just feel like I, I knew it already, but also it's been my job for the past. How long have I been gigging in the Jewish world now? Like 12 years, right? To try to put together shows. That people want to listen to, and so I've, I've made it my job to learn the classic Kumsitz songs, to learn the, songs that everybody loves to sing along to, I try to stay on top of what's currently happening in Jewish music, I ask young people, I ask old people, like, what are you listening to, what do you like, and then also in being a teacher, you see people bring songs in. So A lot of the music that I've learned throughout the years has been from students bringing it in and then me saying, Oh, I like that. I'm going to listen to more from that artist. But I've spent a lot of time listening to all types of Jewish music, Hasidic music, Mizrahi music, um, A. B. Rottenberg, Mizrahi music. Old classic journeys, music, and now like, I've been listening to tie and, it's part of the business as like a Jewish singer to keep your finger on the pulse of like, what are people listening to now and what do people expect to hear when they go to a kumsitz what are people hoping for at a concert? You know, it's unusual, right? Because outside of the Jewish community, a musician doesn't necessarily have to They're looking

Nechama Leah:

to push the boundaries almost. Or innovate.

Lizzi Serling:

Yeah, it'll be mostly original music and then like maybe one or two covers versus like a Jewish artist that's reversed unless they become very, all their music becomes very famous. Right. In and of itself. And then they can just do their own music, but everybody starts out with playing songs that everybody already knows. And there's no worse feeling than, like, preparing a song and getting up in front of a crowd and playing it and nobody knows it.

Mm.

Lizzi Serling:

Which I've had plenty of hit or misses, you know? I, I do my best based on, like, What's the age group of the people? Where are they from? You know, hush guffa, where are they? And I try to make assumptions and do research about what kind of music are these people going to know. And most of the time I, I hit the nail on the head, but every once in a while, like there's always at least one song in every show that gets less of a response than I expected it to, and it always surprises me.

Nechama Leah:

And by response, do you mean that they know it and sing along or just that they enjoyed it

Lizzi Serling:

that they know it and sing along? Yeah,

Nechama Leah:

is that always your your goal? Because what if you're just doing a concert and you just want to wow the crowd and right and you're gonna do that with Your voice,

Lizzi Serling:

right? So I guess that just is And that's a lot of what I do now, is like, it's about bringing together an experience of Jewish women singing together. So it's less about me performing and everybody listening, and more about me creating a backdrop in which everybody can join together and sing together. I have, I have had my opportunities to just sing and people are just listening, and that's where like my original music will come in, or, you know, things like Regal. Right. Nobody's singing along so they don't know the music yet. But I find that at least right now there's a market for people want to go to something that they can sing. They don't just want to watch somebody sing. They want a group experience.

Nechama Leah:

Immersive experience is really powerful. And arguably like what it's all for right now. Like why do we have The koach of singing and music, like it really is a communal, community experience. Um, so you mentioned your original music, why don't you tell me a little bit about your original music, which I happen to love. Um, sure. So, I have What style is it, would you call it?

Lizzi Serling:

That's the big question, isn't it?

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

Um, a lot of what I've written, I've written a lot of, I've written something like 20 to 25. Songs in the past 10 years, and a lot of them lean folky, so it's like almost twangy country Jewish folk music. And for a while I had a band called B'er Mayim Chaim, shout out to Miriam and Leora, um, and, uh, you came to our show in Nachlaot and so we were a guitar, cello and violin and three part harmony and it was very folky, and that fit a lot of my music and I really loved it. And then after Be'er Mayim Chaim and broke up when COVID happened and we all went in different directions, um, I started writing things that were a lot more R and B gospel, And then recently it got folky again, and then this new song that I just wrote is like pretty pop. And that's the one that I'm going into the studio next week to start to record. So keep your eyes open, peeled, your eyeballs peeled for that. Um, but it's, it's gospely definitely. All of the music that I've written. Just getting us kind of in the direction of the conversation that I know is coming has definitely not been the traditional Jewish sound There's definitely

Nechama Leah:

a twist. So when you were mentioning earlier too about like Making it your job to consume lots of different styles, or you just kind of wanted to when you first came to Israel. Do you notice a through line? Like, what do you, in your experience, consider, like, the stereotypical Jewish sound, if there is one?

Lizzi Serling:

Mm hmm. Well, we have Nigunim and Zmiros. Right. That's its own category. And those historically are like tunes from like Polish aristocracy. Like I'm saying, like, where are the old drinking songs? Like there's a lot of really interesting influences, non Jewish influences for those Jewish tunes. But because they are, you know, repeated. At Shabbos tables and in shuls like they become familiar and we know them. There's the Carla Bach sound Yes, there's the Carla Bach sound which is its own world and its own thing, which I absolutely love I love a Carla Bach about Shabbos. There's like nothing like it Then there is like The Hasidic world, and within the Hasidic world, there's like the more Karlabachy, like strummy, like there's klezmer, and then there's like the, the dance music, the like very techno heavy Hasidic dance music, that's its own thing. And then it seems like within the Litvish world, so we have, um, we could talk about men and we could talk about women. There's Mizrahi music. Right? And then there, which is like very Middle Eastern Arabic inspired, right? And then there's like the Mizrahi dance music also. And then within the Litfish world, most things that rise to the top that gain tremendous, like, popularity are pop. Like, very poppy.

Nechama Leah:

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

Um, especially Women, right? A lot of the women Jewish singers, it's very poppy and also like a, a storytelling aspect a lot of the time in music, um, piano, some strings. We all kind of know that sound, we know what it sounds like.

Nechama Leah:

I think we're going to have to come back to this vocal technique. Um, um, conversation. Tell me about this, uh, conversation that you had or this experience that you had being told, or maybe there's been music multiple times being told that your sound is not a Jewish sound.

Lizzi Serling:

So I had an opportunity, um, like a year ago to show my music to, uh, Jewish producer who works with a lot of Jewish singers. And, um, he was like, I love your music. It's, he really, really liked it. He said a lot of really nice things. And he said, but I don't think it'll sell in the Jewish world. And then he didn't, but he did say, that's a compliment, Which is confusing because this is someone who has had, you know, who has successfully produced Jewish singers, and so, but, but he, he didn't feel that I, um, have, maybe it's the sound, maybe it's the look of a Jewish singer, and, um. So he didn't

Nechama Leah:

tell you exactly what that, that he didn't know. He didn't

Lizzi Serling:

tell me exactly what, that's what's most frustrating. He even said that he was happy to work with me in a non Jewish capacity and to sell my music to the non Jewish world and to work together like that. And I was like, yeah, thank you. But you know, I'm, I only am performing for, you know, women, right. So, and how would that have worked? You would have to change your name. You said, yeah, he was like, would you use a different name? And we could just release it without your face.

Nechama Leah:

Yeah, that's not really a music career, is it?

Lizzi Serling:

It would be kind of sad. Yeah. Um So, I mean, it begs the question, like, am I just bitter? You know what I mean? Like, am I just jealous? Right. Um Except for

Nechama Leah:

that he said he loves your music. He said he loved my music. So it's clearly not, you know, it's clearly not an issue of talent. Mm hmm. Anyone who's heard you sing knows it's clearly not an issue of talent. Thank you. And your music as well is gorgeous. I guess it would just be an issue of taste. That's really, I guess, what bothers me about the whole conversation of what, what's Jewish music these days, because it does boil down to taste. If you compare, um, Bracha Jaffe's music with Yishay ribos, like Makesher, you know, like there's just so much different. Not only is it, we're talking about one, one's a female, one's a man, and which also has its own. It has a different vibe, it has a different sound, one's quite poppy, one, like, he's still maybe considered pop, but even, but it's like a different sound, you know, the whole Israeli vibe. There's so much under the sun these days. So when someone gets told your music's not Jewish, what does that mean? Like, is it because you're not saying I love Hashem every other sentence or like I I know I sound like I'm joking but maybe half joking But like really like what what do you feel constitutes something that could be called Jewish?

Lizzi Serling:

So this is something that we've spoken about before if we talk about lyrics, right? And I think that there is I don't know how I want to be sensitive and careful here, but I think that there is a double standard in terms of lyrics for men versus lyrics for women, and I think Yishay Rebo is a fantastic example, because Yishay Rebo, if you look at the lyrics of Halev Sheli, Right? It's tremendously poetic. It is spiritual, but it doesn't have a pussock in it, right? It is, it is deep and it is emotional and it is, you know, there's plays on words and it's very artistically done, right? But it seems like the standard today for most of the mainstream Jewish music is, it's like, It's motivational, it's pretty simple, sometimes it's like a story, but it's not a lot of, you know, in the world that you and I come from, like, a singer songwriter is baring their soul when they sing.

And

Lizzi Serling:

so they are talking about their personal experiences, and their struggles, and it's very vulnerable. And I think that maybe my music is too vulnerable. Like, maybe it doesn't have that mainstream, like, maybe if I put Sukim in instead, or if I don't know, I think maybe it's possible that it was just too kind of out of the box.

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

To like, weird and different. Like, I have a song that you and I, worked on together called Mother Bird that is about, Shulach Hakein, but it's a mashal.

Nechama Leah:

I, I still 100 percent stand by that you should. You should put that song out. Thank you. So it's a, it's

Lizzi Serling:

about like saying goodbye. It's like a mother bird, like when you let her go, but it's also about like toxic relationships and like letting go of people with toxic relationships. And like, maybe it's not considered Senua. To admit as a singer that you have toxic relationships.

Hmm.

Nechama Leah:

Interesting. Right. I, I, I, I don't like to say this. I don't want to say this, but I feel that there is a certain, element here as if you're not sort of allowed to be a person with. with very difficult emotions in Jewish music, like you're not allowed, there always has to be a resolution. There always has to be, it always has to be with Hashem has got my back, which is absolutely 100 percent true. Right. Which is beautiful. Right. But then where's the allowance that we're allowed to live in the difficult, you know, or the, and it's not even that, it's not because I want to write a song that's 100 percent like, oh, I hate my life and this is hard because I don't really want to be that kind of songwriter either. But. But the expectation that everything has to be sort of peppy or, um,

Lizzi Serling:

Or that when something's sad, like a lot of the time there'll be sad music and then at the end, it always has to close up with like, but I know that you have me no matter what. Which like, I understand that that's uplifting. I think that people are trying to be careful about the message that they're giving over, especially in terms of like young people. But I also think it was like, When I was a young person, right, I would listen to music that was sad or that was angry or that was painful and I needed that five minutes to allow myself to experience that emotion.

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

I didn't need for it to be, I didn't need to be preached to immediately after feeling the emotion that like, but it's all going to be okay.

Nechama Leah:

It's, I'm so glad you said that because sometimes I think. Oh, I've got it all wrong. Like sometimes I think, well, I don't want to go back to that space. Like I was the same as you growing up, listening to a lot of music that was very emotional. Okay. Sarah Bareilles is my favorite singer songwriter in the history of the world ever. And I listened to a lot of like her first album, for instance, is so emotional. And like, she really digs in to the, like life is hard, relationship is hard, whatever the thing's going on. And sometimes you like, I would listen to a song and I'd be like, I'm so sad after that. Like, like it just kind of lends itself to that. Um, what's the word? Catharsis? No. Like self indulgent? Yes. Really indulging. in the emotion, which I think there is a, there is a danger there. Sure. Danger of really becoming a little self indulgent in the emotion and, and losing sight of what we need to be as Jewish women, which is. Sure. A bit of that, like, okay, stand up, brush yourself off, warrior, maybe. And so I think it's, it's very hard to, to have that balance especially when we come from that world of I just need to feel something.

Lizzi Serling:

I think what is one of the main difficulties at the crux of all of this is that something that's unique about the Jewish music industry is that every musician is expected to be a role model.

Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

I'm good at singing. So I'm a role model. I'm good at singing. So now I'm supposed to portray through my music what Banos Yisroel should want to be. Like, no, don't put that on me. And you know, it's like, I'm not a rabbitin. People will, and it's Interesting. Yeah, I think it's, it's like every Jewish singer is expected to be like, is this person a good example for Jews everywhere? And I think it's kind of like, why can't people just be musicians without having to be held to this standard of scrupulation of, of like setting a moral standard.

Nechama Leah:

So that question makes so much sense to me of like, yeah, why do I have to be anything other than just this thing that I'm trying to be, I don't wanna be anything. But then if we were to zoom out a little bit and go, okay, well, but why am I doing this? Mm-hmm Am I doing this just so I can. Be a good singer and and sing for people. Is that ever just the end of the line? Can it be as a Jewish

Lizzi Serling:

woman? So no, I'm not suggesting that. Sorry, I'm not suggesting that we make music

Nechama Leah:

for music

Lizzi Serling:

sake. I think it's more just like There's a lot of pressure on Jewish singers to dress right and talk right and that everything is, it's like, what's the message that this is sending for the kids? And like, the reality is that people are born sometimes with talents or they work hard to gain talents. And there's something that is beautiful and healthy about that person expressing those talents in the form of music. And there's something beautiful and healthy about enjoying music. And experiencing that music as a listener.

Nechama Leah:

I think that the Jewish music world is maybe still, maybe there's a little bit of vestige of what you just said is maybe not so accepted or not so true to a lot of people because I was just talking to someone on Instagram the other day and they were telling me that, um, uh, Malky Gineger, who is a very, well renowned and, lovely voice teacher in the New York area, and how she caught a lot of flack in the beginning for Offering voice lessons, that it was not acceptable to train voices. We're talking about maybe 20 years ago, I don't know exactly how long, maybe 15 even, I'm not sure exactly. Yeah, 15 probably. 15 years ago, it wasn't acceptable for a girl to, to work on her voice because, because there was some expectation or rule that, well, you're not going to do anything with it, right? You're not going to become a singer. There's a danger that you're going to want to go out into the world and become a singer. And

so

Nechama Leah:

it kind of almost like negates exactly what you just said of like, I just mean that viewpoint negates. It's the idea that, just singing and expressing your talent for the sake of it is enough so there could be a bit of a vestige of that, that whole viewpoint within Jewish music these days. Like you can't just, you can't just sing because you like to sing. Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

I had this with a student, a student of mine, who's a woman in her sixties with adult children. And she wrote an original song and we're working on it together. And she's working on it with a producer in order to Record it and put it out and her adult son said to her like mommy. Why are you doing this? You're gonna embarrass us And it was so painful for her. And I saw the pain. But it was more like, um What are you doing this for? What's the point of this? Yeah. And there is a certain, there are people like that, right? But that's a real lack of understanding of the physical, mental, emotional benefits, spiritual benefits of a singing practice. And now we know through neuroscience and all these different things that singing is so healthy for the body and mind and soul. And that even if somebody doesn't do anything with it, even if they're not recording, even if they're not performing, even if nobody ever sees it except their teacher, the simple act of going in and singing together with a teacher for an hour a week, it calms their nervous system. And it puts them in a better place. It, it helps with anxiety. It helps with depression. It helps them have a feeling of fulfillment in their life. They leave and they go back into their, into their lives. And even if you think why is she singing? She should be home with her family, right? She's going to be more present for her family. She is going to be a better Jew. More connected in her davening, more connected to her nishama, if she is in a regular practice of singing. A

Nechama Leah:

hundred percent. A hundred percent. But to play devil's advocate then, what do we make of the fact that the women do want to put out their music then? It's not just for themselves anymore. They want to put it out because there's an expectation that they hope to inspire people, right? Or they hope to. Sure. So then going back to our original question, is there a responsibility then to check ourselves about what it is we're putting out? Sure. But not so much that. We have to negate our own personal experience in the music, right? That we should still be allowed to make music about our lives.

Lizzi Serling:

Yeah. I think that it's a fine line and I think that tsnius is very dynamic. Because what tsnius is changes all the time. It's extremely fluid. And from generation to generation, and even from five years to five years, meaning like when I was in seminary, you couldn't wear tie dye because it was goyish. Now you go to Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet, and everybody's wearing tie dye. Right? And so, it's like Crazy.

Nechama Leah:

I know. When I saw it too, I was like, what's happening?

Lizzi Serling:

Or like denim. What's happening? Right? Yeah. So I'm saying, and it depends on your kahila and it depends where you are. And I think that it requires a tremendous amount of self honesty and emotional intelligence and a real valuing of yourself and a self confidence that doesn't come from your appearance or the perception of men. In order to make a real chesh b'nei nefesh, to make a real honest question about what is tzinua for me to share, what is tzinua for me to put out there. And if people are more tziniastic, then I think that's beautiful, right? But I, I wonder if there is a gray zone, where there is space to bring in vulnerability into the music, or to bring something different into the music, you know, originality into the music. While still keeping it wholesome and, you know, not provocative. Right. I think also it, a lot of it has to do with vocal technique because sometimes when people hear music and they hear a woman singing, I think that's goyish right. But they're reacting to, I don't know, it's like, no, it's fine.

Nechama Leah:

I was thinking of a situation. I don't want to interrupt you, but I was thinking of a situation I saw, on this. What's up group that I'm in and somebody made a comment. Why do all the singers these days sound like they're singing in a bar? And to her, to me, they sound very tame. It sounds very tame aesthetically, but to her, it sounds like. Way too much.

Lizzi Serling:

So there are ways, sometimes people do sing, you know, they'll sing the lyrics, very Jewish lyrics, but they're, but the delivery is provocative. So I think that's also something that we need to keep our finger on the pulse of. It's like, is there, is this, is there something sensuous? about the way that I am singing.

Nechama Leah:

Right. Sensuous. Interesting. And it could be sensuous or it could just be provocative in the sense that it's different. Mm hmm. Too. And so that's, I think that what's coming up for me is Well, somebody has to be the trailblazer, but you know, just like so many people before us where the trailblazers, it wasn't even okay to produce music and put out music 20 years ago, who, you know, the Chanales, and the, whoever else in the world that I don't even know about Shaindel Antelis making like some of the first music videos, if I'm not mistaken, you know, all these people who came before us that really, Caught a lot of flack. Is that the right expression? Yes. Caught a lot of flack for it. And so now we might be saying to ourselves, there's no audience for the type of music that we want to produce. But surely there has to be, because if you want to make it, there's people that want to listen to it. And it might not be the top of the list, it might not be super duper mainstream right away, but, but it might become more so as it becomes more accepted or acceptable

Lizzi Serling:

yeah. I think that it's very true that there are always going to be trailblazers who are coming in who are doing something different. And I think also that on a societal level, we see over and over again that the trailblazers do pay the price socially. Yeah. Absolutely. In terms of what schools they send their kids to, et cetera, et cetera. So a person has to ask themselves. Is it worth it? Can I

be the

Lizzi Serling:

trailblazer? Yeah. Is it, am I willing to accept upon myself to be the trailblazer? You know? And I think it's, it's hard because that's not a simple question to answer.

It isn't. It's not a simple question to answer. Part of

Nechama Leah:

me wants to be like, well, you don't want to send it to schools. That are going to have an issue with the type of music you would sing, because you're not doing anything wrong. But at the same time, I know that that's a bit naive. Because sometimes we have to make cheshbonos about, like, what's right for our particular child. Yes.

Lizzi Serling:

Or let's say Now we're going to get a whole other can of worms. Let's say that the school that accepts you for who you are, the kids from that school are less likely to stay religious.

Right.

Lizzi Serling:

So we have, like, undeniably in the, in the Jewish music scene, we have the baal teshuva effect, right? Which is baalei teshuva who come in and they do something different. And I think, and this is going to be controversial, it's true, as if everything that we have just said, everything, every single thing we've said is controversial. In a way, as a baal teshuva, I acknowledge that there is Good reason for the frum world to be wary of baalei teshuva

Nechama Leah:

self hating baalas

Lizzi Serling:

teshuva Self hating no not self hating self loving, but the reality is it is such a huge life shift

Yeah,

Lizzi Serling:

and we are coming from such a completely different world And not everybody can handle it. It's a huge, huge commitment. And I have had many, many friends from over the years since I became religious who have gone off. And that's because you have to, you gotta be tough, you gotta be flexible. You have to give things up. You have to be okay with not everybody liking you. You have to be able to accept certain things. And be at peace with certain things that sometimes people get very angry about or very hurt by, right? And I think that when people come in, from the non Jewish world, and they bring their non Jewish music influences into Jewish music, then people say, whoa, wait a second.

Nechama Leah:

Hold the phone. But, it's my, maybe just because I'm a convert, and because I don't want to think of myself in terms of being a threat, even though I totally vibe with what you're saying. Can we not view it in the, in the sort of like mashiachdik way of like, well, isn't this what's supposed to be happening? We are here for a reason, you know, like we, we came from where we came from for a reason, and we're here now for a reason. And there's this like integration that can happen versus like shunning completely the, what, where you came from. I mean, the values and the, whatever that you feel that you need to shed. Okay, fine. But for me to come in and, say, okay. Well, I'm just not gonna try to better myself Technically as a singer because that's not considered quote unquote Jewish. Mm hmm. That's crazy to me to me. That's crazy It's like no I should bring all that training to the Jewish world sure and we should elevate the Jewish music sure together Right,

Lizzi Serling:

but if you come in sh'ma yisrael Which some people are doing People are doing I don't personally feel comfortable with because I feel that, but that it cheapens the kedusha of the Jewish words and the pasukim and the whatever to put it on a rap beat.

Nechama Leah:

Interesting. Personally. So we each have our lines.

Lizzi Serling:

Right. We each have our lines. And it's, and it's, and it's a, it's a feeling of, does this feel wholesome?

Nechama Leah:

Ultimately I, for me, it depends on the person. Mm-hmm Like I happen to really enjoy Nissim Black's music. Mm-hmm Because I think he is 100%, um, authentic and 100% genuine. Mm-hmm I've heard other rap artists that I feel like, nope, not to my taste. Mm-hmm You know, so I think it does depend a little bit too on like who is right, but I. And this begs the question too, of like, well, we can't completely shelter our Jewish music from all outside influences because everything bleeds into the other. And sure, we don't, we can't say with a hundred percent certainty that the Jewish music that we are writing or listening to these days isn't at all influenced by any secular music whatsoever, because of course it is. Sure. Of course. It's, we don't live, of course, it's in vacuum.

Lizzi Serling:

Yeah. Yes, yes. But, but, and I can't believe I'm saying this because I could just hear like somebody hearing me talk and thinking that I'm really the opposite of how I am, because everything that I'm saying, I have struggled with and fought against and because my nature is like, Be who you are, who cares? Forget labels, you know, Moshiach consciousness, like, like Hashem wanted me to be born where I'm born and I'm coming from where I'm coming from and let's be unafraid and who cares about normal and who cares about societal norms and like, can't we just like rid ourselves of that and like live with the emes and be real, right? And then the, the more pragmatic part of myself has learned. That a lot of the people who disregard the importance of normal within the Jewish world, their kids don't say frum.

Nechama Leah:

Yeah. And the evidence speaks for itself. That issue of conformity. Yes. Which brings us back to the, to the, to the music of like, okay, so the, there feels, To, to an extent, like I need to conform to what is the standard. And maybe that's the answer, maybe, like you said, everyone starts out singing other people's music, everyone gets in singing cover songs and maybe you can do what, what seems to be, pretty, uh, pareve in the beginning and then as you become more of a household name or become accepted in the Jewish music world, then. You can start to branch out, branch out a little bit. I don't know how authentic that feels to each individual person, but that is absolutely an approach, Yeah.

Lizzi Serling:

Yeah. You have to, you have to get your foot in the door by playing the game, establish trust, and then you can start playing with boundaries and testing new things and doing different things. Because I think People are understandably wary because people are protective. They're protective of their kedushah. They're protective of

their

Lizzi Serling:

children. They just want to make sure all everybody wants is just for their family to be happy and to love Hashem and know that Hashem loves them. That's all any of us really want, right? Yeah. But, you know, we all have different ways of trying to achieve those means. And, um, and so I, I empathize with and appreciate the people who are careful about the influences that they let in because they want to protect their heart and they want to protect their children's heart and they don't want to let anything that is not wholesome. But I also I'm so happy that this world of what is considered wholesome and what is being accepted as wholesome is expanding. It's getting bigger. Yeah. It's starting with the men, because they have less tsnius restrictions on them. Right. The Zushas. Of the world. Gotta love the Zushas. Who are bringing, and Tai, and all these people, who are bringing in all these different amazing influences, and then slowly, slowly it's trickling down, and then the journey of the Jewish woman singer in this context. It's just a microcosm of the journey of the Jewish woman in general, which is how do I take all of this love and creativity that I have and express it in a way that doesn't sacrifice my dignity.

Nechama Leah:

And I think that that intention that you just described is, is so important because that will come across. When the intention becomes, I'm a singer and I'm amazing and I want to put my music out there, I think it seeps in, we start to see that there's maybe a lack of tzniut even when it's on paper, it's tznua. It has to be humble. Yeah, I think that that really speaks a lot. It speaks very loudly. And I would say that about Ishai Rebo. I see him, and he's just so, just like, anav, you know? And his music just speaks for itself. And like, yeah, I bless us all. Bless you, bless me, that we, and everyone listening, that we can really just, like, find that place of, pure intention and what is it we're actually trying to express and be in the world. And like you said, like, be that, we're not trying to like put on a show, but just be that and, and have it come through really authentically in the music. I mean, and just as a, you know,

Lizzi Serling:

I am now. I may have gotten that no from, from that producer, but the, the art, the world of creativity and the path of the artist is paved with many, many no's. And he may have felt that I wouldn't sell to the Jewish world, but I am doing, I'm now producing myself. And in the studio next week, I'm working on this song and God willing, you know, maybe it will sell, maybe it won't sell, but just like I was saying before, if I can, if I'm going to practice what I preach, I have to believe that there is worth in me. expressing and creating this music. And if it resonates with even like one person, then, then I'll just be so glad that I did it. Can you

Nechama Leah:

tell us what the song, like you mentioned before about, getting your foot in the door? Do you feel that this song is a bit of that? Like safe space in terms of getting put in

Lizzi Serling:

the door. So this song is called Believe. I wrote it after, um, Rosh Hashanah. Um, when I felt like I had like a bad Rosh Hashanah, because I was just feeling like, what is this world of Skhar and Onesh? Like, what does it mean? If I'm good, then I'll have good. And if I'm bad, then I'll have bad. And, uh, Oh, I don't feel like I was good. So now does that mean that my year will be bad? And, and I just like opened my heart and, um. Um, and wrote from a really vulnerable place, but I think that it's a really universal experience and I think it's going to be a really uplifting song. Um, and I'm just like really, really excited to

Nechama Leah:

share it with you all. I'm so excited. I've been telling you, for everyone listening, I've been telling Lizzie for like, As long as I've known you, which isn't that long, but at least a couple years, it's like new. Where's your music? Well, everybody needs to listen to this, so I'm so, so, so excited. And can't wait to, listen to the song when it's out. Thank you so much. We can do this every week. I know. I'm like, should we just have an, uh, yeah, I feel like we could have continued this conversation for like hours and hours, but we do have to, um, get to life. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Ne this was really enlightening. This was really cool enlight and it is so nice to talk with you. Just in person about, we talk a lot on WhatsApp. Yeah. Yeah. So this is really cool to just dig into some of these things and see, how deep you are and how, like. You're

Lizzi Serling:

so deep. Oh, thanks. That's one of the things I love about you the most is how deep you are. Thank you. And I hope that the people found it interesting.

Same.

Nechama Leah:

Thank you so much for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye. Happy singing. My log off line is happy singing. Oh, let's say it together. Okay. Happy singing.