Supporting an anxious young person in engaging with school with Eileen McSweeney

Julia O’Meara speech and language is joined by Eileen McSweeney, a  social care worker specializing in helping young people navigate school-related challenges. Eileen brings a wealth of knowledge from her extensive background in child protection and mental health, focusing on supporting families and schools to address issues of school reluctance and attendance difficulties.Together they  discuss practical strategies for recognizing and addressing school reluctance, the importance of communication between parents and schools, and how to foster a supportive environment for children facing challenges in their educational journey. 

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Transcript

 Welcome to season two of theropod podcast. This has focused on back to school topics.  Um, and to kickoff, we have Julio, Mara and Eileen. 

 This is Julia O'Mara. I'm a speech and language therapist and today's host for Theropod podcast. Today we're speaking with Eileen McSweeney. Eileen, welcome to the podcast. And would you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you've been doing? 

 I'm Eileen and I'm a social care worker. And currently I am working with young people and families and schools when children are finding it difficult to go into school. So there might be some attendance difficulties or reluctant attendance and school attendance.  So my background would be working with young people who don't.

in so many different,  settings,  from child protection to mental health and with young people of different ages and needs. So, so kind of, it's very helpful then when you're coming to think about why it could be difficult for a young person to kind of go into school and to engage with learning.

Amazing. So lovely to have you joining us here today, Eileen. And today we will be discussing um, some of what you mentioned there, some of that school reluctancy and how we as professionals, as parents, teachers and schools, um, can support our kids and young people who might have some difficulty,  or reluctancy attending school.

 And I guess the first thing that comes to mind to me, Eileen, is for parents and for teachers, , how would they recognize if their young person or if their kiddo was having difficulty, um, or reluctancy around attending school?  Um, it can start off really slowly, something very kind of discreet, like a young person maybe.

Um, kind of avoiding doing homework or in the morning they're like delaying leaving for school and it's getting later and later for going to school. And it can grow from that, you know, they can, you know, complain a lot about school, about, you know, teachers or in the summer. classroom or maybe some of their peers and it can kind of start looking like then where they where they're really upset and distressed going into school and coming out of school or there's you know failure in being able to stay in school for the full day or it could be where they just won't get out of bed for you in the morning and you're doing everything you can and they won't get up and then they're they're out of school for the day.

And typically, um, is this something we see in older, um, you know, adolescents or can it happen for primary school kids?  It can happen at any age group, um, it, it can be seen more when there's maybe at a transition age, maybe when the, when the child is going from, from into a new school building or from primary into secondary.

secondary, or if there's a big change with the staffing in the school. But it can happen for any child for so many different reasons that, you know, I would work a lot with young people as young as six and all the way up to 16, 17. So there's not really one, just one age group that you should be just like, Oh, my child is out of this age group.

Now it's okay, I don't need to worry about this. It's something that a lot of young people  do, do find tricky going into school because it's such a big part of their daily life that there's, there's a few different things that can make it tricky for them.  And what kind of things might cause a child to become reluctant to attend school? 

Um, I always kind of find myself trying to remind myself to be careful not to just presume it's just one thing. Um, because there's so many different kind of interlocking things that can kind of build up for a child or a teenager. Um, but they mainly kind of come in, like, maybe four different categories.

So, for the young person themselves, it might be, um, something like an illness, or that they're having difficulties learning. It could be that they find it hard to interact with their peers. It could be, um, that transition piece from one class to another. to another, um, under, like, you know, for a family, then if you were looking at, um, you know, areas within the family, it could be, you know, the parents themselves mightn't have, um, finished school themselves and might have a different kind of, like, you know, not, you know, a good, um, you know, really understanding or want for their own child to, to, to go to school.

There could be a recent bereavement or separation in the family or something like a moving house.  Um, if you were looking at possible causes within the school environment, it could be bullying. That could, I'd always kind of remind parents as well.  Cyberbullying, because it is usually with some form of peer in the school environment.

It could be changing staff. It could be, um, something as that the expectations are too high for the child. And then it could be something within their social environment or their community where there's not as many supports there to help the child or the family when it comes to things that might have come from the other areas. 

All those interlock, so it's really important to not make a presumption from the start. Oh, it's this, or it's that, or oh, it's, you know, it's obviously because they're transitioning into a new class. It's, it's important to kind of look at all possibilities, so that you've got kind of as much of a big picture as you can. 

And I know for both parents and teachers that this can be a very stressful time for the adults in the life.  As the children who are experiencing that reluctancy to attend school, um, and as you said, that's a huge part of that young person's day. It makes up, you know, Most of their day and most of their lives they're attending school is such a huge part for them.

Um, but as the adults in their lives, um, what can we do to help support these children, um, get back into school and to build that confidence?  Um,  I think first, first thing you should do is ask yourself, what are you feeling about this as well, because this, when a child is, you know, reluctant to go to school, that's going to have an impact, as you said, on the, on the parent. 

Check in on yourself to see how you're feeling about it or what you're thinking as well, because you, you may need to do your own supports, or you may need to think about how you regulate yourself first before you have that conversation with the caterer, or before you try and get them out of bed in the morning.

So definitely kind of think about what I can do for myself as well. So don't forget about yourself as well in all of this. Um, the next thing I would say is show curiosity. Ask your kid about what it's like to go to school. What's nice about school? What do they do well in school? What do they look forward to?

What do they not like about school? Because there's going to be things they don't like and what they may need support with. Ask them about their friendships.  Um, show curiosity because, um, You know,  validate what they're feeling. You know, it is okay to feel sad about going to school. It is okay to, you know, feel anxious about going to school, or a little bit fearful to go to school.

But it's really important that you can acknowledge, but be, I suppose, firm at the same time, where, you know, I get it, I get that you, you know, you're a little bit nervous about going to school, and at the same time we'll go in together. So it's kind of like still kind of having that balance.  Um, you know, and that's kind of more at the lower, the lower end.

Um, you're going, at some stage it's going to be really important to have that  conversation about strategies that you may need, you know, to regulate.  Eileen, I guess, you know, having had that conversation and, um, you know, following that advice that you've given, at what point, um, should parents. be contacting school or communicating with school to let them know about what's going on at home or their worries.

Um,  What would you advise around that?  Don't leave it too long,  because communication with school is really, really important. Outside of home, the school is I suppose, the biggest environment for your child. They're in there five days a week for you know, a couple of hours and  you know, your teacher, their teacher and their principal. 

you know, care about your child as well. They want them to succeed. So don't leave it too long. If you start having worries, check in with the school. Your, your, that teacher, your child's teacher will prefer to know that, you know, you know, he or she is starting to be more reluctant to go to school, that they're distressed in the morning or they're coming home crying.

That teacher will want to know because then you can plan. accordingly, where you have support at home and at school. So, um, you know, communication with schools are, you know, there's so many different ways to communicate now, you know, and you don't just have to have that in person meeting. You can use, you can phone them, you can email their school apps now, um, the school journals.

So, um, use whatever, you know, is the main form of communication to start that, you know, that piece.  And I, I love. What you said there, Eileen, that it doesn't have to be that face to face meeting or that phone call because I know for a lot of people, um, adults, parents, um, carers that that can actually be quite difficult.

And, Raise a lot of anxiety going into, um, professionals and, and telling them maybe what's difficult for your child. So I think having those other options, like writing in an email or the journal, um, Other forms of communication is such a fantastic idea for parents as well. Yeah. And I think, um, like yourself, you, we, we know that, you know, children can mask in school and then they leave it all out at home because that's their safe place.

So the school may not have started to see those signs as early as you. So if you can start bringing that up, um, do it because it will work out for your benefit in the long run.  And I think, um, you know, even vice versa that the teacher might be picking up on things that are triggering or tricky for your kid in school, whether it's lunchtime or the toilet or break time or friendships that they might not be able to communicate with you at home.

Yeah, like, you know, it's like, you know, their homework may not be done, you know, there might have been a drop in their, you know, the standard of their homework or, or they might be more withdrawn or the, you know, their, their friendships are starting to look a little bit different. Um, teachers are really well trained to make observations to, and for things to look out for.

So having people.  Communicate. Having everyone, you know, asking the question is something more difficult for your kid right now is going to be what's helpful in the long run. And it's going to be so, like, you know, your child knowing that, you know, not only you as a parent, but the teacher is also wanting to work together to help them.

It's going to be, you know, helpful for them as well because they'll know that they're more safe.

  So Eileen, um, For parents who might have been invited to a meeting with the school to discuss supporting their young person or an IEP meeting. 

What, what could be helpful for parents or caregivers to prepare for these meetings because they are tricky things to walk into? Yeah. What can be useful?  Um, first thing I would. What I would suggest for parents to do is to find out who's going to be at the meeting. So that you're not walking into a room by yourself and you're met by three people.

So that can be a little bit daunting. That's daunting for me and I'm going to a lot of school meetings. So find out who is going to be there. And if it's a name you don't recognize, ask who they are and why they're attending. You know, the tool will, will tell you who they are. The next thing I would suggest would ask, what's the goal of the meeting?

Why is the meeting being called? Just in case it's, um, you know, you're not a hundred percent sure that you have an idea, but you're just, oh my God, is there something else going on that I don't know about? So ask, ask what's the goal of the meeting so that you're prepared as well. Because if you know what the meeting's for, you can then You know, have a list of questions ready.

It is so hard when you're in meetings to think of everything you want to actually ask. So make a list. You know, um, I always suggest to families, um, to get a copybook  and take notes and bring that copybook with you to school, each school meeting so that it's always in that one place so that you're not losing notes, you're not losing plan.

They're always in just one copybook.  Um,  ask your child before the meeting.  You know, it's, you know, again, show that curiosity. You know, what are they finding, um, you know, difficult, or that they might need support with, so that you're bringing your child's voice into the meeting.  And depending on the age, maybe the child should be in that meeting.

Because it's very hard to come up with a plan that will work if the child has no input or ownership into that plan. So depending on the age, your child might, might, might be, you know, in attendance as well.  And what kind of age would you be thinking, Eileen, or would you say, you know, parents know their kids, they'll know when they're ready. 

Yeah, that's a really good way as well as saying, you know, you know, your child better than anyone else. You are the expert of your child, you know, so you will know if maybe it might be too much to be in all the meeting or for them to join for the last 10 minutes, or maybe they'll write a little letter themselves of what they'd like to be brought in.

But if you're teenagers over the age of 12, Seriously consider them attending that meeting, even if it's just for a brief few minutes, because again, it's showing them that their voice is really important. That this is about them, so they should be part of it. And it might be, look, maybe, you know, the room is full of adults.

Maybe most of those adults will step out and allow the child to come in to maybe just a smaller group of adults. But just think about, you know, how, how to make it easy for that child to participate.  I also was wondering for parents about bringing someone to support them, whether it is, you know,  both parents attending  or maybe  engage with services that maybe someone like a social worker.

Or a family support worker or, you know, um, you know, a youth worker that might be working with a young person. It's such a great way to have another advocate for your, for your child. I would suggest and recommend though letting the school know in advance.  Um, primarily because schools are child protection sites, so they'll need to know who's coming on their site.

So just, if you're going to bring someone with you, definitely both parents or both guardians but if there's somebody outside, um, that, and just let the, let the school know, and they'll be welcoming. I'm yet to see a school who, who has denied a person coming with the parents.  And I love how you mentioned, um, you know, write out any questions you have beforehand.

Yeah. It's a strategy I use for everything in life. Same here.  It's just so hard to think of everything you want to ask or, you know, even write out bullet points of things you want to You know, let them know, you know, you could be saying, look, you know, about homework, it's taking them three hours to do their homework.

Is that the norm, you know, you know, write out bullet points of just even things that you want topics you want to cover as well, not just, it's not just about their learning. Obviously, that's a really important part of your school meeting, but it could be like, how are they getting on with the peers?  You know, is he or she, you know, playing with other young people or, you know, what's the behaviour like at school because the behaviour is like this at home.

So there's so many little different things that you can kind of hit on in school meetings that it's hard to think of them all unless you've something written down.  And it's something I like to encourage parents to do or carers to do as well. When meeting with the school.  Often, the school meetings can feel quite negative on the young person and on the family and I love to tell parents, you know, bring a list or a few bullet points of the child's or the young person's strengths as well.

 When we're, when we're hearing and focusing on all the negatives, um, it can be a very  Not safe place to be or uneasy place to be. So I think for all of us, having some things we enjoy and some things we're good at brought in, um, makes an environment a much nicer place to be, whether it's the meeting or bringing those strengths and hobbies into school. 

Yeah, and let's You know, everybody needs that positive feedback. Um, so yes, there might be something that might need an improvement,  but knowing the positives as well is just as important because, you know, the child needs that as well as the parent. Um, so if the school or whoever from the school hasn't brought up the positives, Um, there is a move more towards solution focused and looking at what works well so that you can build on those strengths.

But like you said, it can still happen where it doesn't work. It moved towards the, Oh, we need improvements in all these instead of, Oh my God, your child is amazing at this, you know, um, so, and it just, it makes it easier to go to, to come to another meeting when you know that there's a balance. 

The other thing that comes to mind for me as well, Eileen, and it might be slightly having my speech and language therapy hat on, but for parents, you know, If teachers or professionals in that meeting  are not being clear or you're unsure of the lingo they're using, um, you know, to, to feel confident and to ask for clarification, what do they mean?

What does that word mean or that phrase mean or those lectures mean? Um, You know, when we abbreviate things. So that's one thing I always say to parents, please ask for clarification, please ask for repetition, please ask questions.  Yeah, because we do as professionals, we kind of fall into that lingo we have within our professions and we forget, we forget to be just clear and straightforward.

And so I, When I'm writing down plans for, for parents and for the teachers of what we've decided at the end of the meeting, I use as clear language as possible. What's to happen, who's to do it and when, by when, and just keep it short and to the point. There's no, there's no need for this flowery kind of big language, um, when you're, when you're doing a meeting like this. 

  So,  you know, we've said how important that communication with school is and, you know, what we can do in those meetings. Um, what other types of supports or strategies have you found helpful, um, working with some, some young people? I'm aware that, One size does not fit all, and you know, it can be a little bit of trial and error.

Um, but for parents out there listening, um, what supports your strategies? Um, could we recommend?  Um,  start maybe by asking your child what it's like, you know, like let's say it's anxiety, what's it like in their body? So, do they get shortness of breath? Do their, does their heart start, you know, pounding? Um, do they get sweaty?

Or, you know, do they, you know, get really tense hands and feet?  And when you kind of know, those symptoms that they're experiencing in that moment. You can then start maybe tailoring different strategies to try and kind of counteract those, those physical symptoms. Um, for example, if your breathing becomes shallow or you know, your, it changes, you can start practicing breathing strategies with young people.

There's so many different types from you know, box breathing to you know, the, the uh, take five breathing and, um,  you can, they can practice, you know, paste breathing and see what works best for them for the breathing strategies. Um, I really like distraction strategies like, um, five, four, three, two, one grounding, which is you  Um, kind of focus on five things you can see, four things you can hear, um, three things you might be able to touch.

So you're using your senses and you're trying to, I suppose, focus on something else besides all those worried thoughts about school.  Um, so those kind of distraction strategies are really good for young people, especially when they're on transit to school and when they're in the car and they're in the school bus or they're walking to school when their anxiety or, you know, their fear is starting to rise.

Those kind of things kind of help to ground them.  Um, didn't some young people really like the positive self talk and, um, assurances, you know, I can do this, I've gone into school before and I was okay, you know, um, don't underestimate that positive self talk because it has, it has a lovely sense of, I can do this, you know, and you can even kind of coach them through what to, what to say to themselves.

And you can even have a list of five positive self statements.  Um, so then I, I kind of really like, um, strategies like the self soothe kit. I always recommend that for, for, for young people, including teenagers and small, small kiddies, because it's very much personalized. Um, so again, it's based on your senses and it could be something like hand cream.

It can be like fidget toys. It could be, you know, a picture of your pet, you know, so it's really, you know, Uh, you know, individualized to you  and they can be just, you know, like, you know, it could be a hair tie around your hand.  I think everyone, I think anyone who's worked with kids kind of has the hair tie because we know how good it is at, um, regulating.

So there's so many different things. So, you know, you can test out different, um, Items that best suit for your child and it can be fun putting together your self suit kit. So  to have a think about it. Yeah, and I love how many options there are for self-soothe kits that you can really, you know, find what works with you.

I've had kids who've had fidget rings rather than spinners,  you know, perfumes.  Chewing gum, you know, there's, there's so many different things.  Yeah, and they don't have to be expensive or, you know, a gadget or anything like that. It can be just something as small as, like, as you said, like the hair band around.

Your hand.  Um, so yeah, so test out, um, items that can help, I suppose, calm your system, because your system is different than my system. So my self soothe kit is different than your self soothe kit. So, so, you know, enjoy kind of trying to put together one, you know, before, you know, we're, you know, at the moment schools are closed and they're going to be reopening in a couple of weeks time.

So that can be something that you could plan with your young person and practice different items as you're kind of starting to prep them for going back in.  And I know a worry that's come up  for me when working with parents is around bringing those self soothed kids into school. And I think that comes back to that communication that you mentioned, Eileen, with school.

I'm not sure in your experience, but I've never met a school that hasn't allowed kids  or young people bring in accommodations. Um,  Um, I, like you said, I think the communication piece is important. Um,  also, I, I find it, I, I haven't come across many schools who have had an issue. Sometimes the clicky pins, teachers might prefer not having a clicky pin, purely because maybe another pupil in the class might be sensitive to noise, so they might, they might be trying to kind of, you know, help all the class. 

Um, but yeah, most schools are pretty, pretty good and just be mindful though of things you're allowed in school. So some schools don't allow chewing gum, for example, anymore  or the mobile phones. They're starting to put them in the lock boxes on lockers now. So, so,  um,  it, you know, have a think about what you are allowed in school, um, because they all have so many different rules.

You know. Exactly. And I think that's where that communication piece comes in. Check it out with your teacher, with your principal. See what, what is appropriate, what you can bring in.  But the schools are generally pretty great unless it's against the rule. Yeah, they're, you know, they want to help your child be in school and be in class and being able to engage as well.

Um, so I'd find it hard to believe that they'd be against a self suit kit. Um, but you know, You know, just let them know, have that conversation and at least then, you know, nobody will be in trouble and nobody will be worrying about, Oh my God, can, can, can I use this? . Um, I know things can be so different depending on where our, our listeners are tuning in from. Um, but I just wanted to talk a little bit about maybe some people or, um, professionals that.

Parents or schools can get in touch with if, um,  you know, this reluctancy to attend school is complex or it is pervasive and ongoing. Um, what kind of professionals can be useful to get maybe a referral to or, um, get the ball rolling that, that, you know what, we need some extra support here.  Um, if you're not sure.

Um, so again, dependent on where you're listening from, um, the best person you can ask if you're gen, if, if you're, if you have, if you're not sure is talk to your principal or talk to the teacher, they'll have a good idea of the local supports and, um, What's available in that particular area, area, most countries, their department of educate, there's some form of department of education.

They will have a service within those departments when it comes to, to  supporting school attendance. Here at home in Ireland, that is part of actually the child and family agency with the Department of Education. So they share it  and you can also contact them. those services for support and for guidance.

Um, there's, you know, a lot of community supports when it comes to, you know, helping your child with anxiety or it could be parenting, um, groups because  parents, families, can feel very isolated when things aren't going well and even just knowing that another parent is experiencing something similar can be really helpful. 

And a lot of groups are online now so you may not even have to do that in person piece, you know, which can be a bit, you know, nerve wracking for yourself.  Um, there, there would be a lot, I, I would say start off with asking your school, do they know of supports? Um, and what's available, um, not just for the child, but also, you know, for yourself as well, because just don't forget yourself in all this as well, because it's hard.

When your child's finding it hard to go to school and you see them distressed, that's hard. So don't underestimate how much of an impact it can have on yourself as well.  Great, thanks for that Eileen. Um, 



Could you talk to us a little bit about, you know, what is a support plan or what kind of things might go into a young person's support plan at school?  Um, it can be different for each child. Um, Usually when it comes to, I suppose, school attendance supports or frameworks that are in schools, um, you can kind of think maybe of a triangle and at the bottom of the triangle are the school wide strategies or supports that are there for all young people to help them come to schools.

It could be like, you know, welcoming teachers at the door. It could be, you know, monitoring attendance. And then as you go up the triangle, it becomes more individualized. So, and because it's so individualized, you need to think about what works well for your child, what has helped your child in the past, uh, what is the best way.

You know, what does your child find tricky about school and that will help them to feed into a support plan  that transition from maybe your car or the school bus into the school building could be where the where your child is finding really tricky to go to school. So maybe the support plan might be focused just on that piece.

Um, you know, you, um. So kind of knowing what your child finds tricky about school  will help to build that.  Um, I've seen, you know, support plans from, you know,  four people in the school, the staff team being named. So it wasn't just one, just in case that one member was out sick or they had a day off and that might, you know, upset the child even more.

Four named young people would meet the mom or the dad with the child at the door There was a plan on how the child would say goodbye to the parent. Might be a high five or it might be, you know. And then they'd walk into the school with the, with the teacher so that they knew that this is the handover time.

So there was, they were clear how mom and dad were going to, I was going to say goodbye to my mom and dad and I was then going to walk with one of these four people. You know, um, I've seen plans where it is, if I, if, you know, a young person gets really upset or, you know, their anxiety starts going up in class. 

Um, how they'd communicate that to the teacher, because they may not feel able to go, I'm really upset. They might not want to say it, first of all, um, or they might be embarrassed and how would they communicate that to the school, to the teacher non verbally. So it could be something as simple as putting, you know, a certain book on the table, kind of a visual cue and where to go.

Cool. If you do need time outside the class, where to go? Because it's one thing to be able to tell a child, Oh, you can have a break from class if you need it.  That can be even more tricky for the child if they don't know where they're meant to go. So be clear on where a child can go or to who they can go to. 

Um, so there's so many different things and your child won't need them all. So,  start with a simple plan because you don't want to confuse your child, you don't want to be confused and you don't want the teacher missing cues like a, like a book on the table. So stick with a simple, maybe three possibilities, three, three things on your plan because you can add to it, but it's very hard to take things away because it is.

It can make the child feel like nothing works. There's some, Oh my God, there's something really wrong with me when all these things won't work for me. So start simple and you can develop, develop that.  Great. Um, and thinking about some of those kiddos who,  you know, we might have parents listening saying, I can't even get them into the classroom or into the school.

Um, what kind of support plan do I need? Yeah. What kind of things would you recommend Eileen for those parents? Oh, I don't know if they'll like hearing this, but school hours are school hours.  If it's more enjoyable to be at home, then it's going to be very hard to make that change and you know, get your child back into school every day.

So limit screens. So if your child is using screens for something to do with educational purposes, like they might. be you know, researching a project that they're doing at home to be able to then give to the teacher. That's one thing, but otherwise it should be screen free time because they should be in school.

So, um, school hours are school hours. The next thing I would suggest is.  Kind of stick to the morning routine and as much as possible, so still call them still like the expect them to get up and dressed. Um, expect them to, if they're, if they don't go to school, you know, that there is a plan in place that they, you know, maybe sit at the kitchen table or in the sitting room and they do a little bit of homework or they do a little reading.

So that connection with school is also still there. Um, you know, It's going to be, but you know, definitely the big one is school hours or school hours as much as you can,  um, because we don't want it too comfortable at home.  Are we thinking about things like having lunch at the same time, having breaks at the same time,  subject, you know, choices?

Is that what we're thinking?  As much as possible, that's a great way of thinking, you know, if they have a timetable, especially, you know, the older teenagers have timetables because they've got different teachers for different subjects. You know, if they can follow that for reading, that's great. And then follow their lunch breaks.

That's great because it's keeping them into that routine and connection with school as well. But it'll be like there, it can be a little bit tricky to have them doing, you know, 40 minutes of eating. subject, um, at home compared to at school. So don't feel bad or don't feel like this isn't working or I'm not doing enough if you can't get the 40 minutes.

So if you can even get them doing 15, 20 minutes of each subject and following the timetable and they have a little, you know, break between each of those, that's okay as well because you're still following some as you're staying connected to the routine as much as you can.  



And I know we've spoken about quite a lot today, Eileen, and a lot of different strategies and things to try. Um, and I would like to, as we finish up to bring it back to you. you know, being kind to yourself as a parent and looking after yourself. Um, and as with all strategies that we talk about that,  you know, trying one or two things, I think you already said three things, even at a time, rather than trying to bring them all in.

Yeah. It being exhausting or, um, you know, setting the goals so far ahead that, you know, we're, we're setting ourselves up and our kids up to fail. So, you know,  this, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah. And, you know, if your child is completely out of school and they've been out of school for a while. It's going to be very, you know, it might be a little bit unfair to be expecting them to be back in school full time next week.

So small steps of achievement,  um, a phased return where, you know, it's broken down where it might be just going as far as the school gate or doing homework at home for a while. Um, but definitely at least you have a sense of we're getting somewhere where there's change here instead of this constant, nothing's working. 

I love that. term or phrase about this, the small steps, um, would you recommend for parents with their young person or with the school to write out what those steps might look like, um, to see the achievement or how would that look like if they were setting up a kind of a, um, 

Um, I use a visual that's like a ladder, um, so that they're, you know, you know, climbing the ladder to, you know, the top step is I'm going back. I'm in, I'm in class full time. Um, so the first, you know, If a child's been out of school for a period of time and you're, the communication that they're getting is just, you just have to be back in school and that's that, it's going to be very hard to see change.

So if you can break it down to a step that they can actually achieve.  Then they get this sense of what I did. I did it. I can, I can do the next step now. So have a think about where your child is at. Are they managing to go into school for maybe part of the day? Are they not going in at all?  Um, or they're going in, but they're not learning because they're so distressed.

So they're leaving class and think of a step that would be possible. So your first step has to be. It has to be, all your steps have to be a little bit more tough, obviously because you're trying to go towards the main change, um, but it has to be something that they can do because otherwise you, you're, you know,  we don't want to add to a sense of hopelessness. 

So the first step, I can remember a, a plan that I've in place for a young person for returning to school in September, which is five, in five weeks time, is that the young person is, the first step of the plan is that the young person is going to walk  in the direction of the school, but not fully towards the school.

So there's a certain kind of stop point that they're going to walk towards. Yeah. The next, and they're going to do that for, for a week, every day for a week. It's, it's five, it's five minute walk. And then the next part is they're going to go as far as the gate at school for a week. The following week is that they're going to go as far as the gate. 

With, you know, a bag on their back that will be similar to their school bag. So it can be, those can be steps and that, you know, a child will feel like they're, they're getting somewhere that they're, you know, that they're achieving. And that's so important because they're, you know, if, if the adults and the, you know, as a parent, if you're feeling really upset about this and you're feeling hopeless about this, you can just imagine what the child is feeling. 

So, so definitely smaller steps if possible.  I know.  Um, it's something I can do and, and something a lot of people can do that if I've managed something once or twice, um, and I get quite excited that I might jump up a couple of steps and then go, um, that phrase, um,  go for, sorry, what is the phrase, forward two steps. 

Forward one step and back two or something, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that you know, I jump forward too soon. Um, you know, whether it's running further than I planned and then being burnt out and not being able to run for the rest of the week, or reading a book, reading too much and then being sick of reading. So what would you say to parents who are kids that, you know, are so happy that they're achieving their goal after two days that they might want to do more. 

I would still, you know, really encourage them to stick to the plan  because I suppose  there, there might be little knocks on the road back to school.  If that happens, it's okay, because you know what the plan is, and you can go back to the last step instead of being knocked, as you said, all the ways back.

And it's really important that, um, your role modeling following the plan and following the time frame that everybody agreed to. Um, because the child may want to skip a step now.  But they may not feel like skipping a step again and and you you've already seen them skip a step So you might be pushing them to skip a step Uh, so we want to take as much confusion out of it as possible.

So stick to the plan and um,  You know A small step of achievement is amazing, be proud of that.  But it does take a few goes at it. So like you said, oh if I've done it twice, yay, go me, I can go to the next one. It may be five or six times you have to do that because you have, the anxiety has to have come down, the intensity has to have come down before you can go to the next step.

So you need to be feeling a little bit more confident.  I don't like the word calmer, but, you know, less anxious at that step before you can go on to your next step. So just, yeah, stick to the plan as much as possible because we want to role model for our young people that will follow what we say.  Amazing.

Thank you, Eileen. And thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Um, you are a wealth of information and, um, that was so helpful. So thank you for joining us on TheraPod. Thanks a million.