Why can't some children access school? with Amy Winter

Banu Balaji, the host and an occupational Therapist chats with Amy Winter founder of Little Kneaders in Wexford, Ireland. Amy is an emotional regulation therapist and sensory play specialist. She specializes in supporting neurodivergent children and teens facing school anxiety, school refusal, and self-harm, particularly autistic teenage girls dealing with eating disorders. Through Little Kneaders, Amy organizes autism and disability resource fairs, sensory events, and training sessions aimed at fostering inclusivity for neurodivergent individuals. She emphasizes the need for greater support during the transition from primary to secondary school, as many neurodivergent students are undiagnosed and unsupported, leading to significant mental health challenges. Amy advocates for a more nuanced understanding of school refusal, suggesting that it stems from environmental factors rather than a child's 

unwillingness to attend. Her insights aim to equip parents and educators with strategies to create supportive environments for neurodivergent youth, especially as they navigate the complexities of adolescence and social interactions in today's digital age.

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Transcript

Amy Winter is the owner of Little Needers in Wexford, Ireland.  She's an emotional regulation therapist and a sensory play specialist and an educator for neurodivergent and complex needs children and young adults. Amy's emotional regulation therapy work specializes in supporting neurodivergent children and teens with school anxiety, school refusal and self harm.

Little Needers organize six annual Autism and disability resource fairs around Ireland, an annual sensory Santa event in Wexford for neurodivergent families, and large scale training events in neurodiversity for those living and working with neurodivergent children and young adults.  Little Needers manufacture a range of natural therapy doze with ground well being designed to provide moments of calm for neurodivergent children and adults. 

Amy also trains educators, social workers, the hospitality industry and many more professions across Europe in neurodiversity and how to make all spaces inclusive for families.



I specialize in school refusal school anxiety,  self harm and supporting autistic teenagers with eating disorders, anorexia predominantly. A lot of the teenagers I see come in with very, very similar, I don't like to call it profiles, but they are, you know, that would be the word that society uses for it.

And a lot of them are very similar, Bhanu, they can't go to school. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they They can't because  these are predominantly autistic teenage girls I'm talking about and they've been unsupported and undiagnosed for so many years  that by the time they reach secondary school it's all just too much  and they find it so hard, the transition between primary and secondary when there's even less support  going in  to secondary school than there was in primary school. 

And it's all their developmental, , building blocks that have gone unaddressed, unsupported,  even unidentified, really, that builds up to that mental health difficulty as they  get into their teenage, teenage years, isn't it? Yeah, it does. And I think the transition may, you know, when we, we, We hand over our babies into childcare, into Creche and Montessori, there's so much support.

But as you go up the ladder in education, the support diminishes. Whereas actually, it should be the opposite way around.  I think children in secondary school need so much more support then. Montessori into in so many different ways in different ways. And I remember this, like everyone will always say when my kids were younger, so it gets better.

It gets better and they need less of your time, but actually not. My kids are now teenagers. I found that they needed more  and it's not necessarily not be my one to one time or that, you know, all that busyness, but they needed me being there more. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. They need more connection. You know, we know now that the brain is growing.

We thought before it was growing at the fastest rate between 0 and 3 years. And  now we know it's growing even faster between 15 and 25.  So that shows us that  teenagers and young adults really need much more support than we give them credit for, really, and, and that we give them. And very interestingly as well like just like the zero to three years where there's that push for, I do, me do, you know, I want to be, that comes back again.

Yeah. At the teenage years where it's actually, you're looking at , physically adult like person, but actually they're very much toddler like in their interactions. Yes. Yeah. And I think they struggle because one part of the brain is telling them, you know, go this way and separate from your parents.

You know, you need that independence. You need to grow. And the other part is like, Oh, no, no, no, no. I need to stay here. Please support me. Please nurture me. Please help me through this period where I can't keep up with what's going on.  Yeah. Yeah. And you're right about the complete, I wouldn't say complete lack of support, but actually it's support that, you know, I think doesn't address their needs.

Like there's support in lots of ways, but it's that, that addressing their needs that isn't happening. It is. Yeah. And I think there's a lot that that needs to happen to be able to support the teenagers, especially within schools. You know, the proper understanding of if a child or a teenager needs to leave the classroom, they don't need to go and sit outside a guidance counsellor's office instead. 

They need movement, or they need to be able to take a break from what is causing them overwhelm.  And sitting in front of a guidance counsellor's office is quite often the route that they go to, because there's no other safe space  to take them to. But this isn't providing support  to them. Again, it's looking at those environmental bits. I, I, you're, you're, I know, you know, you're an OT in, you know, in your training and I can never take off that OT lens where, you know, the environment plays a huge part, whether it's the physical, biological or emotional, but for a school, for a school going child, it's that Physical environment is so, so important, isn't it?

Even sitting outside a guidance counsellor's office might not be physically  No, but there's no mental support there either, because you're still, you still haven't got that fresh air going into you, you still can't take that deep breath, you're still within the environment that is. It's very, very difficult for you to be in.

It's not. It's just removing you from one classroom and putting you in another box  so, um, and this is something, this is a piece I've struggled with and we're calling this a back to school series and initially in my head it was around school  refusal and school avoidance. I know they're not the right or the most  correct terms to use.

What do you think? I often refer to it as. children who can't go to school.  I, I think we need to remove the emphasis, like with all those terms, the emphasis is on the child  and the blame is on the child or the family not being able to get their child into school. Their, and their blame is removed entirely from the educational setting. 

With school refusal, that implies that the child is refusing to go to school.  They're refusing to go because of the environment. They can't mentally or physically, I have seen children crippled with anxiety about having to enter  somewhere where their brain and body isn't supported  and they can't get out of bed.

I have seen it. They physically and mentally cannot drag themselves up to get that uniform on and put one foot in front of the other to go.  And behavioral strategies are not very useful. No. Um, if you were,  if we were as adults. There's no way that we would take on these kids are sitting 10 subjects. 

There's no way I would take on 10 courses for a year and sit all the exams in the same week. There's no way that my brain wouldn't be able to mentally cope with that.  So for these children, you know, there's an awful lot of pressure. And then they come home and they know that when they can't come home, they can't decompress.

They've still got hours of work to do as homework,  you know, which is, and then they have after school activities. Some parents put in tutors.  You know, it's ongoing  and they know that that is repeated every single day for five days of the week.  And I suppose a lot of their tea, and again correct me if I'm wrong, teenagers in general now their way to decompress or to, to relax is,  heading to,  the PlayStation or the Xbox or the TV  that that's how, that's what they do, but that's also not necessarily the most youthful.

way to actually regulate to learning. No. I think that suits some children and I see a lot of children who do need deep decompression in terms of they need to be in  the mellow beanbag with a screen for an hour.  It might take me even maybe a bit longer than that but I think so many of the teenagers I see struggle so much on a social level they find it so draining to mask. 

All day long in school and then come home and throw themselves into other activities and things where they still have to mask and the PlayStation and the Xbox, the online gaming, it gives them that ability to be themselves to remove the mask and to talk to other children.  Or gamers on a level that they're comfortable with  and social interaction that way it's fairly important because it's the level that they can't.

It's when we see it spreading into the night, you know, seven hour, eight hours gaming and late bedtimes and no routine. That would be my concern. It's not just the, the disruption in routine, but the fact that yes, you have your gaming and it's fantastic, but same time you do need to move your body.  You can, you know, give the body what it wants,  what, sorry, what it needs, not what it wants, but what it needs. 

And that, that's harder, I think, to do now with how their lifestyles are. Again, it's not a big thing, but that's, that's what kids do. It is. Yes. I see it in my own house.  You know, the 10 year old, she,  it's something she reaches for and she seems to, you know, When  she gets these new things, she has, she got a PlayStation for Christmas last year and there was a period of time where it was,  you know, it became an obsession. 

And we had to cap the time on it and things like that. But I think as long as there is balance,  it helps our children. You know, I have to remember that all three of my children, they go on a dog walk through the forest every day. You know, there is movement there. So if there's a couple of hours  of screen time, I have to learn a little bit to step back because they need decompression too.

And it's, it's the balance. Yes. Like everything else. And it's also really important to remember that  screen time is extremely gratifying and addictive. So unless as a parent, we have some boundaries,  they can keep going.  Yes, boundaries are healthy. You know, we all need healthy boundaries in order to protect ourselves. 

And I think sometimes 

maybe families, there aren't healthy boundaries in place or, or enough understanding of, especially like late diagnosed teenagers of, of what they need and maybe the,  the form of support that's coming is misunderstood. You know, pushing, pushing, pushing the education side of things, whereas, you know, there's lots of roots now into  life,  you know. 

And very interesting what you said, said a little bit earlier, um, in terms of school being such, you know, that transition  piece, uh, while they're supported in primary, preschool, primary, and then secondary, they're left out.  and supported. But there's also that social piece, especially for the neuro, um, diverse kids, the social, um,  uh,  links or the, or, or, or, or their demands become very complicated, don't they?

At that age, it just becomes much, much more complicated. Yeah. And I, I'm actually staggered by so many times by what my clients tell me about friend groups. And, you know, if you, if you talk to anybody outside this friend group, you're ostracized within this friend group, like they are challenged. It's,  it's hard enough on a neurotypical level.

To navigate all of this stuff. You throw a neurodiverse brain in there. And then, whoa! How does this happen? You know, I'm struggling to keep up with  even the conversational, like, reading people's emotions and this kind of stuff. And then suddenly, I can't talk to somebody else  outside of my friend group.

And, you know, the struggle there is  It's very, very difficult for them.  Or even if there was a desire to, have that connection with somebody else, there's that whole piece of, Oh, that's going to be so awkward. That's, that's awkward. , I've, I hear that from my kids quite a lot, but I said, why don't you go so, so I do that.

Yeah. No, that's too challenging.  It ostracize them from, from people. And, , Their whole lives are played out online. I often say to parents, we forget, you know, when we were growing up,  we didn't have to go, we didn't have to put on makeup if we were leaving the house. Because, you know, we could be ourselves if we wanted to.

Now everything is posted on Snapchat.  It's posted on social media. They have,  lots of them are filming all the time. And there's this bar,  that they set themselves to, they have to look good. They have to behave in a certain way. You know,  if they do something silly, it's posted on, they're embarrassed. 

They're humiliated online. And that's relentless because at least you did something in school already. You could leave it behind at school.  It's gone. But when Snapchat or Instagram, whatever else they're using. People are still talking about it. Yes, and I think it's the same with gaming as well. I believe lots of clients have told me that  they're in like Minecraft groups,  gaming groups, and this kind of thing online.

And, you know, the abuse they share to each other. Yeah. You know, it's disgusting, but it's relentless, it's there all the time, they cannot escape from it anymore.  And I always say to parents, like, just, you know, you wouldn't let your child or a teenager, I mean, within reason, you wouldn't let them go to the city centre and leave them off. 

Unless you knew that they were going to be safe or you have some sort of a, a safety net there.  Cyberspace isn't that different. No, it's not. It's a, in fact,  I would say it's nearly worse than  the chances of something happening outside are slim. The chances of something happening to you that is traumatic online  are significantly higher  than outside.

Being out in public, I would say,  and remembering that these are really young brains with a very poor prefrontal lobe,  very poor decision making very can be impulsive. And yes, you might have a really really sensible child and saying, but still,  yes. They're that and hormonal. Yes. Oh,  very hormonal.

I don't know if you remember chat room when they first happened  I was a very young teenager when if a teenager maybe 11, 12 web was starting and  chat rooms were popping up all over the place and they were volatile. They were horrendous places, but they have evolved  as much as the World Wide Web has evolved.

 And that has only gotten so much worse than, what was there  20 years ago.  It's horrendous. It is hard to shun technology, shun this because it's, it's there. . And there is a, there's a lot of positives to, to, to having huge amounts. Yeah

but like everything, there's always the other side of the coin and it's very, very dangerous and unsafe., both my, um, both my. children are in secondary schools that are all iPad.  Okay. And I thought,  you know, while it was fantastic in a lot of ways, like I can see, I find it very hard to organize my work if it's on the computer or an iPad, like I actually sometimes need a physical. 

I can't make that switch. Yes.  I still use it for side effects.  Appointments.  Highlighting things. Yeah. Um, and I find them fantastic at using it, but I also think it's a it is a distraction because they can have apps, well the school says you can't actually you can have YouTube and Netflix and it is such  a distraction,  that's at their fingertips.

Yes, absolutely. Yes. And, and they are impulsive. . They do things to challenge rules because they can. This is what growing up is. You know, I  had a. Client who is pushing the boundaries of being a teenager and we have to normalize that too because, you know, that's what they do.

That's what they do. That's what they do. You  have to learn from mistakes.  So tell me Amy, what would your, , advice or, or if you had something to say to parents in preparation for the new school year, whether or not. They're going to go back into physical school or where they're going to do home. What would your advice be? 

Remove the pressure, you know, find tools like putting each subject into a Ziploc file folder so that they can just pull each subject of books out of their locker instead of trying to sort through and find all those books that they need.  Reduce their planning as much as possible. contact the school and ask them for a floor plan of the school so that you can walk through  with your child, you know, maths is here, English is here, your locker is here, this is how you get to A, B and C.

 Often visuals work so much better  for children. They need to see the,  you walk into the school on the first day and it's, Complete overwhelm, you know, so that as much preparation as you can do in the two weeks before they go back because they are on their holidays.  I find with clients,  particularly those with who can't go to school or who struggle to go in every day,  they need that break.

You know, I see the immediate relaxation in them.  The minute they know their friends have finished school too,  there's no pressure, they don't feel like they should be somewhere anymore. So, in June, for secondary school students, you know, my kids are all like, Oh yeah, I'm great!  Everything's great! The world's great! 

And then,  towards the end of July and from August it starts creeping in, you know, and there's a lot of discussion at home, they might be asking their parents a lot of questions. So, the reassurance set. We'll talk about this towards the end of August, you know, mid to end of August, and try and give them that period of time to allow their brains to relax.

Because decompression from school is really important when you can't go in.  They need that break. You know, there's three months there  for secondary school students, and it should be used. For children who can't go in normally to give them that. To be very honest, I think three months is a very long time.

It's too long.  Six to eight weeks I think is a good  period, but three months is, it is long. It is, yeah. But for them too, they need challenging, they need routine, they need structure. And that's the other side of what I was talking about was that  yes, some relax, but others,  they can't sleep.

You know, it goes down through the roof. They just cannot settle. Their brains are not being challenged. They miss the structure and routine. They miss their friends.  Even in an autism class where you're five or six, they really miss each other.  I found our summers went much better, for the older one anyway, when he was able to get a part time job and then that gave him structure.

And it was great because there was no, you know, book learning involved, but I found the confidence came on and it was, it was, it was nice. But again, But they're not at that stage until towards the end of school. So they're still spending like four or five years with three months off. Yes. And what do you do with a 12 year old who's off for three months?

Yeah. You know, they, they're so reliant on you.  But then when you get to exam stage and you look at what they try and pack into a year,  you know, as I said, I wouldn't take on. that amount of learning myself. 

And that kind of learning where, whether you like it or not, you're learning things, you know, you mightn't particularly like maths, you mightn't particularly like Irish, but you're, you have to, while you're as an adult, that's really not, something we do. No. And it's, it's difficult for them, you know, they're packing in an awful lot into every day and then they're playing their sport, they're doing their couple of hours homework.

It's, it's a lot. Their days are very long for them. And I think that's where  reducing timetables for children who can't go in to school is very important. It is an excellent tool for them,  but doing it on a traffic light system is very difficult because that doesn't give them the structure and routine that they need.

That means that they're,  they have gaps in their timetable where they don't know what to fill,  how to fill those gaps, you know, so usually when I reduce timetables for, you know, Children,  I start them first thing in the morning so that the anxiety doesn't  take time. It doesn't have that time over them to take hold of their brain.

You know, if they're going in at 11, they have a chunk of time where that anxiety is sitting there instead of moving. They're moving early in the morning, they're up, they're dressed, they're going. They're not sitting at home waiting.  For quarter to 11 to roll around.  Um, and usually it's more effective  than  getting them to go in.

And then we finished them. If their social skills are, are particularly  bad or poor, we'd finish them before the lunch break, you know, at the, the started lunch break so that they don't have to go through  lunch break as well. Yeah, because lunch break is overwhelming, no matter how we look at it, the, the queue for the canteen, the smells,  you know, navigating pathways.

Huge gantry overload. Massive. Yeah. What I've noticed as well, , again,  very typical, typical children,  there is a reluctance to eat your lunch during lunch break. It's not done. Oh, I can't be eating, or I can't be eating that. And,  you know, I've had to nearly sit on top of my girl to say, actually, I'm sorry, you have to bring a lunch and you have to eat it.

 Some of them don't eat because their friends have told them that it smells.  Yes. Or that their friends aren't eating so that they see we don't eat at this table and they still want to be a part of that group. Yeah, again, navigating such social situations, you know, they're, they go into panic.  What do I do?

I'm starving, but yet my friends aren't eating and I'm not allowed to eat at this table. So  what would you do?  It's a hard one. It is. It is. And it is, as you said, like it's, it is so complex now that those relationships, it isn't,   I don't think, I don't know, was it ever simple, but it's become more complicated.

Yes, it has. And I think the relatable bullying side of things where, you know, you might have a  a bully within your friendship group who might not talk to you from day to day. They're, you know, they'll just freeze it out.  That now doesn't end when those kids leave school, you know, they're in group snapchats and they're snapping these things.

I have to get in with this lingo because this, you know, I asked my kids, do you use WhatsApp? And they're like, no, dinosaur.

No, we snap.  Okay, so these kids are snapping, but then  their messages are being left unread or unopened.  And they're like, why? And then they go into school and the kids are talking to them, but they're being left out on Snapchat. So the relatable bullying is, is constant. 

You know, they're struggling to navigate all of that.  And there's, there's always one. There's always somebody that, that kind of takes the lead on that. And spirals. It's pyro. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so different for their mental health and well being too. Because at that age, what they're seeking are those social peer connections and relationships.

They don't want you. They don't want you to say, Oh, it's going to be okay. Or I'm there. They don't want a parent or  a sibling or, you know, they want their peer group. Yes, they do. And they need them. You know, they need that stability of a good, solid friend group. Yeah. Yeah. To help them through these years, because we all know these years are tumultuous  and very turbulent for both parents and for the kids. 

So you have a  conference or training coming up? Tell us more about that. We have, oh, it's a really lovely I pulled experts in from their field from all over Ireland.  It's for parents, social workers. therapists, but mainly those working within education, so college lecturers, anywhere where children are receiving education, youth reach groups, schools, Montessori, and it's  learning how to support neurodiverse students because there's so many components  to being able to support. 

Neurodiverse students right from Montessori all the way through to the end of college.  And usually I see by the start of college, children or teenagers, young adults by that stage, they, they find it easier to unmask. It's like college is that  I can unmask, I can finally be myself, but yet they still need quite a lot of  support.

I find, especially with mental well being side of things to navigate, you know, they're, they're changing again.  You know, their bodies and their brains are changing constantly. They wake up one day and they're not the person they were yesterday. And neurodiverse  children really struggle with that  feeling,  you know, that, oh my God.

And feelings, and feelings are really. Um, they're complicated at that age anyway, again, this was something that I, you know, I had one of my children crying and they were like, I don't know why I'm crying. But then when you're neural atypical, again, your interception, your perception, all of those, um, signals are really, really mixed up.

So it's even more confusing, what you're feeling.  Yeah, it's really difficult and you don't know why you feel frustrated and sad but also so excited at the same time to do be doing something new,  but yet, terrified, you know, it's all new beginning. So the, the training day has been put in place to support the areas that I see most are. 

neglected or most misunderstood within education.  I, I see it  first hand, even in my daughter's classroom, there are  30 children  and 12 are neurodiverse last year.  That's a huge amount for the teacher taking them on, but also from a teacher's point of view, teachers, mainstream teachers trained to be mainstream teachers.

They weren't trained to support and nurture and educate a neurodiverse brain. And this is, you know, we see one in three, maybe now, is neurodiverse  within schools. And that's a, that's a huge percentage. And you're dealing with, you know, you might have an ADHD brain, which is very different to an autistic brain.

You might have dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, everything within one class. And and, and they can, they would have very, very different needs from one another. Absolutely. Yeah. And some of them significantly more, but they all need, 

the teenagers I see with who can't go to school, they're often anorexic, they self harm, they have suicidal ideation. They're considered low support needs because they're in mainstream schools. They might be  a higher math, higher Irish, yet their support needs are significant and you just can't see them. 

So the terminology of low support needs is, is completely misunderstood and misinterpreted. I think  very subjective assessment. Yes. Of, of, an assessment process that is subjective anyway. Yes , it is,  but it means that those children are missing out on so much support that they need access to because they've been put in a checkbox that says they don't need it.  Lots of, lots of, work needed really around the support system, around the adults that are teaching and, and, and, , maybe in making policies and there's, there's, there's a good bit of work. I think so. Yeah. And that's where that day was born from. 

People just want to learn. They want to be trained. You know, I ran a workshop at that conference and it was, it was so nice to interact with educators from all, from the whole system, right through from Montessori and Creche, right through to college lecturers.  And some of the supports are, are very simple.

That we can, you know, they're very easily implemented, but you have to know about them, and you have to know about the children you're supporting to be able to implement them in the classroom. Like lots of children, I remember speaking to a friend of mine,  who he is ADHD. And  He remembers just staring outside of the window at school because his brain,\ like lots of the kids I see, they tell me that their brain isn't able to take in the information. 

It can't stick. That's what they say. It just can't stick. The teacher is talking, talking, talking, and their brain is just gone. You know, they, they say, I can't sit in the class. That's why I don't want to go to school because I can't take anything in.  But are you sitting in the right place in the classroom?

You know, do you have any tools that you can bring in with you?  Is there enough planning? Are you getting enough movement or space before or after your classroom? There's so many components that go into just keeping some children within school boundaries.  But I think, you know, I, I talked to parents a lot about homeschooling and in Ireland, there isn't any minimum requirement to, for homeschooling.

 And I think parents think that you take your child out of school and on the Monday, you can just replicate school  the next day. But actually, there's years of trauma for the child to process before they open up to being educated again. But there's so many routes now for life. You know, we, we should no longer be telling children that if they don't pass their exams, they're going to end up under a bridge because it's simply not true. 

 There are so many,  fantastic resources like National Learning Network, you know, their class size is seven or eight. They have access to a psychiatrist or psychologist every week. Yeah. They're well nurtured and well supported within.  Things like that. There are other options now for education.

And I think that's really important that parents know that because so many feel  the anxiety of return to school, too. Because they know that they're going to be facing that same battle of please get up. Please get up. Please get up. Please put your shoes on. And they just wait all day for that text message.

I need you to come and get me.  You know, I got, I got a lot of them last year from, from my girl, and it is, knowing all that I know, I, I'm 20 years doing what I do. Yeah. It doesn't make that,   that anxiety, that spike, sense of panic. That's it. It doesn't make that go away at all.  Um, getting that to myself, getting that message.

Yeah, my ten year old was bullied last, for the last two years in school and primary, and it was the most difficult journey I've ever been on, despite having, you know, I could talk to parents all day about their own children being bullied and supports put in place, but that anxiety that sits in your chest  as a parent,  knowing that your child is, is not doing okay within school is very, very difficult. 

And, and especially if you're also trying to work and you're, you know, and, and then you're, it's, it's, it's very, it's a very hard space to be in as a parent. Yeah. It's, it's  very detrimental to your own mental wellbeing, but you're, you know, that your child is also suffering,   it's hugely impactful  on your heart and your head. 

I found what I, what I did last, last year was to say, okay, if you want a couple of days off, take the couple of days off and that kept her going back to school.  Maybe not as I was nearly expecting a letter in the post to say attendance isn't great this year.  But,, that, that was the only strategy that worked.

She didn't want to stay home and do homeschooling. That was not something that she wanted to do. I offered. . I see that a lot too, that they want the social interaction, they need their friends, you know, there's that huge pull towards their friends and actually making that final decision between being homeschooled, you know, I have clients who haven't been in since the Christmas before last, and yet they still can't make that decision to, to homeschool, 

as well, it's like, I don't want to be seen as a loser. So, there is that, yeah. Awareness,  whether it's good or bad, that's separate, but they, they have that thing, I can't, I can't, they want to be a part of that group,  whether or not they're friends. And I think you were so right in supporting your daughter with those couple of days if she needed them, because too often I see  clients in very, very distressed. 

Or in crisis, actually, some of them, where they've been physically dragged from their bed by the parent, pushed into the car and said, you're going, but yet they were screaming, I can't go. I cannot go today.  And then they sat there all day crying their brain, their headaches, they're sick. Yeah. Full meltdown mode, and that is the advice that you would get from  first port of contacts, usually GPs. 

Yeah, if you're in the camp service or primary care, that's the advice that you actually get. I know. Get into the uniform and get into school. But it's not that easy, and if we really think about what that does,  like what is the point of your child being there on that day? They're not taking anything in because they're actually so distressed within their brain that they can't take in. 

Like a child in a meltdown, you can't talk to them, you can't communicate with them until they come out of that meltdown. It's the same with severe school anxiety. If you push them into school in that state, they remain in that state, they don't pull themselves out of it. In fact, they're worse.  As the day gets on, they're worse.

They're exhausted, they're tired, they need space to decompress and they can't find it.  But they haven't taken anything in. So what's the point of them being here? Yeah, you're not learning anything. The child knows that. The child is the one screaming, this isn't going to work. You know, this isn't going to benefit me by going in.

All it's going to benefit is that I get a tick on my attendance.  That's it.  They won't take anything in.  So, you know, the couple of days break in between, especially, and I say this to parents so often, if your child has managed, you know, they've gone in Monday, Tuesday, and they've managed four days.  They've gone to their after school curriculars,  you know, they've done their homework on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, and on Thursday, they say, I can't go in. 

They can't.  They've been masking straight for three days.  They've done three full days, they've done after schools, they've done homework. They're done.  They can't manage that fourth day, which is where the reduction in the timetable really helps. You know, you reduce it by two hours that they finish after the break or at the break  if they like social interaction or if they can't manage.

You're giving them that time, it doesn't mean that they're, they miss the education, they still catch up at home when they can, but it's after decompression time. It's after they can relax outside of the environment.  You know, and I think if you're for parents who are quite anxious about what, so are they going to come home and just do nothing?

What I would say is have a structure in place to say, come home, have a break, and then we go back to work and some sort of a structure. Because again, these kids like the structure. They like the routine. Yeah, they need it to thrive. Yeah. So it's good to say you're back at 1230, have lunch, whatever, back at 1.

30 or 2 o'clock and then you do these,  collaboratively plan what the afternoon needs to look like. So it's not to say you're at loose ends, do, do whatever. And that doesn't help them either. That doesn't help the anxiety if they're coming home to do nothing. You know, and I often say to parents, once you've reached the stage two of  school recovery you need, you know, that your child needs to get dressed. 

You know, in stage one, they can't, that's fine. We need to allow that time off to process trauma, to process the school recovery and everything else. But once they reach stage two and they're poking their head out of their shell and, you know, they're coming back around to the world and life. 

We need to get them out of the house. We need to start introducing life activity back in to their world.  Because up until then they can't manage them. That's fine. Allowing  pajamas all day long and no structure, no routine, no walk, no fresh air. That's, that's adding to it.  Yeah. And of course then,  from my, my, my old T brain as well, the chores, you know, instrumental ADLs are a huge part of that.

 Okay, you're not in school, but you can do it. You can make dinner tonight because that's learning too. It is. You know, there, there's, there's always work that that is a good brain break. It is.  And I think, you know,  again, society calls it a profile, the PDA side of things, at the pathological demand avoidance children, especially when they hit teenage years and They can't do anything,  and they need a whopper amount of support to be able to meet any demand, you know, and you were saying, you're home so you can make dinner. Lots of children, lots of parents don't realize that their, their children are PDA profile  and struggle that they're met with, I can't do that.  And then, but where do I go from there? Okay, well, you can't meet that demand, but you can do X, Y, and Z. You can get up with support. You can, I can help you. And here are your choices. You choose which one you want to do today. And often that will break the reluctance or the,  the inability to be able to meet demand. 

So when they're offered choices,  it helps. And I think parents are, are unaware of the tools of working with  PDA children. You know,  Can you put your shoes on,  or can you put your socks on today? And often one  will get done.    And there are some tasks that make them feel good, that they're, that they feel that  I'm good at this,  I have self esteem with this.

It could be just making grilled cheese sandwiches for the family, not a very,  not a roast dinner. Yeah. But that's an important. Activity for them to engage in. Yes, and they get their independence and they've accomplished something. You know, and that's all building inner strength, inner resilience to things.

. Yeah, as much as in stage one, they, they can't do anything,  do you still have places left on your, , training day though? It's in October. What day, what date is it again? It's Tuesday the 29th and it's 99. I think you're not doing a very good job of advertising it and plugging it.

 It's on Tuesday the 29th. It is 99 euros for the whole day. October. So it's during the October midterm.  So that teachers can attend. Um, it is 99 euros. You get all your teas, coffees and biscuits and you get your lunch, um, included in that too. And the first, up until two o'clock there is solid training all together in one room.

And from two until half five, six o'clock, you get to choose the workshops that you want to attend that are relevant. To your work or the environment that you're coming from or your child if you're a parent,  so attending  or having these trainers come in on a one to one basis is worth thousands. And so for less than  100 years, it is a really, really well put together day.

We have a interview coming out up there of  a man who is. ADHD and his school experience and how, if he had been more supported within school, what path that would have led him down instead of the path that he did go down. There are, we have 60, 000 children in Ireland out of school every day.

No way. Is that the number?  From school anxiety, school refusal, school avoidance, whatever you want to call it, their inability to attend school, there are 60, 000 of them a day. To be very honest, Amy, again, I get it. I've had such,  heartbreak with my girl. She's second year. She was in second year last year.

It was just the most difficult. Again, she's neurotypical.   Oh, it was just,  I was, I was driven demented by the number of texts that I got. Yeah. I would go and correct her. , again, it was a lot of social kind of stuff. It wasn't anything else. . And there was, I think, also a sense of,  Oh, I'm not interested in this.

 I can't, I can't. I'm just, I'm just switched off mom. I'm just sitting there like a zombie for the whole day. And then me like, Oh my God, my child isn't getting the education that she can get if maybe she stayed home.  I'm hoping now third year will be a little bit different.

I  I have offered, I have offered homeschool and I said, you can stay home because I work from home mostly. It's not that she'll be left on her own.   From what I see,  school anxiety in particular, whether they're neuro typical or neuro diverse, there's massive hormone stages. 

That, that contribute hugely to this. So we have one, especially in boys, between three and four. And you see the testosterone going wild within them and behaviour becomes challenging. And, you know, they change very differently.  I see it a lot in nine to ten year olds. 12 to 13 and 15 to 16 are the huge surges. 

And that drives their anxiety, you know, and as that hormone, as their body gets used to dealing with that search, the anxiety does come down a little bit and they're able to cope a little bit more. But the demand of school is huge now.  Yes. And I think And I couldn't be more thankful for COVID in the way that the aftermath of it that we can work online.

Because if this wasn't possible for me, I would have to be in an office 9 to 5, Monday to Friday. , but this kind of flexible working has been useful in managing this. I feel very sorry for our parents who don't have that luxury. Sorry, my kids are flying out the door.  We're nearly done, I'm just ranting now.

And I think  COVID is a really good point to bring up actually because so many parents on their initial phone call with me say she changed or he changed. after COVID. I find that he can't go to school, she can't go to school after COVID. This has all happened since COVID. And my initial reaction is, no, I think COVID showed your child that They're able to be more relaxed in an online environment.

That's where they don't feel the pressure. You know, they can't hear the background noise of 30 other children in the classroom. They can't hear 30 pencils on a piece of paper writing. They can't hear the clock ticking. They're not navigating planning or organization skills. , there's a huge amount that goes into it, and COVID stripped that all back.

You know, they were comfortable. They didn't have to interact on a social level that they struggle with. They could be at home doing their schooling. Close the laptop, I'm done. Let's walk away. And that's very hard, or has been very hard for some children to get back. Yes. To going into physical school again, because the demands of going into school and navigating friend groups, the environment. 

The planning, the organization, everything about the day is, is so difficult compared to just being able to open the laptop, go to school, do your learning, close it, and that's your day done. And to be very honest, school, other than, , Those times where they're at break and having those potentially toxic  interactions.

There is not a whole pile of constructive social opportunities. So if you look at it that way, what they can do from home if they were just a learning piece. It's fine, isn't it? It is. Yeah. And I think there's been such a decrease when I was at school, we did PE  every single day, which helps break up, you know, there's a lot of movement.

Some children obviously can't cope with pee holes and things like that, but  for those who can, it gives you that physical wellbeing as well as that mental release.  And that has changed here.  It's not for the better,  you know.

Getting that balance between mental, physical, emotional, social well being is, is very difficult. But when you reduce the physical on such a extreme level. Extreme level. . You can't climb back from that. You're expecting children to sit in one classroom  for hours. You know, and I think we all agree that yard time is chaotic, it's not the most  constructive way of socializing for children.

And yard time is, again, even from a young age, it's incredibly difficult for them to navigate it. It's chaotic, it's loud. I think when you're younger, you're happy running around and kicking a ball or, you know, but as you get older, they get, they're more self conscious with their bodies.  It, you know, it's, you could have a very sporty child, but they're not essentially wanting to  move too much in public, especially with their peers.

And it's,  yeah. It's, I have children who can't go to pee because the peer has told them that they look fat in their uniform.  There's no input from  the school side of things with that. You know, it's just been brushed over yet the child hasn't done PE since  the first term of last year.  And I don't know what the solution is to that, but I think, I don't know, it's just an example of how influenced these children are by their peers,  that just a simple comment like that can impact somebody's life  so much.

There's a lot of very deep, very deep conversations today. It was so lovely to speak to you, Penny. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure to. To come on.  I hope there's some advice, some useful advice in there. But just my, my main piece of advice is just to remove the pressure, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a parent, just remove the pressure off that child  and see whether.

And pull back on the demand.

That's Amy winter. And her website is little needers. Dot com and she has an upcoming neuro-diversity training day for teachers, early years. Educators send cold social workers and parents. On the 29th of October. And I believe there's still a few tickets available. Can contact her directly on little leaders.com.

 Check out our Instagram page theropod podcast for all the details with links. And also for updates on our upcoming podcasts.