The Neuro-Spicy Therapist

 In this episode, we hear from Padraig Drake, an occupational therapist who was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia later in life. He shares his journey navigating academic challenges, leaving school early, and finding his way back to education and a meaningful career. Padraig discusses how his personal experiences have shaped his approach to supporting others, especially within the neurodivergent community. The conversation touches on the complexities of diagnosis, the importance of finding healthy coping strategies, and the impact that one supportive person can have on a life. This episode offers insight into resilience, self-discovery, and the value of understanding different ways of thinking and learning. 

Transcript

 , this, , episode now we're gonna talk to Paul Drake, who has been on Interpod twice already and such enjoyable conversations and we're joined by Georgie, our co-host.

And, , yeah, it's been a while since we had our last chat and we always end that chat with, oh, we have to talk more. , There's a lot to say. , I suppose like this season, is about talking to adults who are either neurodivergent themselves or have children or working in that space mm-hmm.

And kind of reflecting on their journey. Mm-hmm. , What kind of, not just the challenges, but also the strengths and the resilience. Yeah. So, , so I'm gonna actually let let you, , introduce yourself very briefly and kind of tell us how you fit into that category at Boss.

, So my name is Paul Drake. I am an occupational therapist. , I'm a neurodivergent occupational therapist. I have a DHD and dyslexia. , So would've had a lot of lived experience of what the struggles might be for many clients

That inability to hold attention to task, struggling with reading and writing, I being judged on your academic performance as, , a score of value when you're in a school setting, unfortunately, and it it pretty tough. So it's like supporting the newer, divergent community that you are worth so much more than what you wear.

Able to perform on an academic level or an academic paper. I was diagnosed as an adult with both, I was an early school leaver.

, I started missing a lot of school when I was around 12 or 13 and signed out of school when I was 15. , The signs were there, just struggled academically. , It just wasn't for me. When I went back to college as a mature student at the age of 26, a. Um, dyslexia, which made perfect sense.

I had never read a full book. , It just like, it ran true to me. I really struggled. I remember sitting there reading children's books and really kind of struggling with it. The formation of it. Yeah. Um, I'd have someone sitting behind me and watching, listening to me read, and I was reading words that weren't on the page.

So there were, there was a lot of telltale signs that it was there. Um, and a DHD I've always thought of myself as someone who's quite hyperactive, struggles to sit, and that was very transparent in my first number of jobs, very active. And then I started seeing clients coming through the door and they were talking about their symptoms of A DHD.

And I was like, is this, is this not what we all struggle with? Like, you know, and they were like, I, I just, you know, I couldn't even sit for 10, 15 minutes at a task. I was like, can anyone, uh, and it kind of ran through a lot. So as they were coming in with their symptoms, I seemed to have them and ones that were worse.

So I was like, I think it's probably time I went and got a diagnosis. So yeah, it came up. There was no shock or I, I could see it from my own life. I've had to use movement as a tool for years to regulate myself, um, in engaging in endurance sports and just intense movement. And that is a real way to regulate myself.

So I could, I could see it, I could see that if some of the building blocks aren't there for me, the A DHD and dyslexia are the, the, the symptoms of it are heightened. So yeah, it, it did make sense. So I was later, like your husband, probably later in adulthood, uh, with the A DHD one for sure. Hmm. And did you find it hard to, uh, get a diagnosis?

Because he's like, certainly we were very much keen to get a recommendation that was solid. Um, because there's a lot of stories you hear of, um, I dunno, cow cowboys basically out there saying, yeah, we can, I can diagnose a DHD. They take your money and then what do you know? It's, uh, you, you get nothing for it.

Did you find it hard or was it quite accessible because of the, the practice you are in? I think if you were seeking medication, you need to be very careful of who you are because like that everyone is happy to throw out a diagnosis, but if there isn't a psychiatrist on board, um, you, it isn't worth anything to you.

So, um, it was accessible to me. I suppose. I had known a few people who ran through different services in court. Yeah. So I'd heard their lived experience, what was good, what worked, and I found one that worked for me. Um, I wasn't seeking med. But I had the option to take it if I wanted to. I, I don't know what the hesitation is for me, but I'm, I, I probably am like this with all medication if I, I don't take painkillers or anything like that, or any substances, actually, any drugs, alcohol anymore.

So, yeah, I stand on this, stand on the other side of that. But clearly you found what works for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I, I know people pro out words like, you know, autism, A DH, adhd, dyslexia is a superpower. It absolutely does not feel like that when you're going through the struggles of it. It's hard and it's important to recognize that.

But through the fact that I can't sit still and have an inability to maybe hold attention to tasks of things that I am not interested in, it means I seek a life that is really meaningful to me and true to me. And I get to be around people and I get hyperfocused on things that I love. Um, and I definitely found huge sets of skills that I have developed because I lacked in other areas.

My ability to verbally communicate with heightened, because I couldn't do it through written word. And that's why people get long voice notes off me as well, instead of me texting, uh oh no, he is doing that again. I'm the same Bonnie will tell you. Um, but it is, it's so, it it, I think it's so interesting how like a lot of your choices have, have, have become very healthy because you've been able to kind of see the benefits.

And I think a lot of people really, really struggle to find those, um, healthy ways to self-soothe because there's so much dysregulation going on. And of course then we get the drugs and we get the alcohol, um mm-hmm. And it's a real, and I suppose, um, you know, one of the, um, the things that we talked a lot about on the long way back with Timmy Long was, you know, life opportunities.

And you know how sometimes when you're born into a situation where the opportunities aren't. Really there, it's, you know, how do you find them? Where, where do you start? And it, you know, it's, uh, it can be very difficult and sometimes you have to learn the real, the the hard way. But, uh, like my husband did, and like so many, uh, of people who, um, you know, I'm now in my forties and a lot of my, um, the, I would say a lot of the people I know with A DHD certainly went through a, um, a difficult time, um, very difficult time and, and hopefully have, have now find an, a nice way, way to soothe themselves like yoga.

Mm-hmm. And you obviously do a lot of sport as well. Um, so I dunno, it's just, it's an interesting way. Do you think you were born with opportunities or did you go out and find them? Um, so I would come from like a lower socioeconomic area and lots of early childhood trauma experience, early school leave because opportunities weren't there.

I would, I do a lot of trauma work now at the moment, probably be the area that I specialize in. I work in schools and social care organizations. Some of the training I delivered today was that I think there's real power in that one good adult. I'm such an advocate first. I had one that saw something different in me.

And yeah, I think we all naturally want to achieve and thrive because some people don't believe that that's the path for them. If you can have an adult around them just saying there's something special in you, you can do more. I think that's enough to drive them, to kind of seek those answers. I think I saw I wanted more and there was a really good reference point around me where I could see where my life was going if I lived the unhealthy path and thought things for at least resistance around drugs or alcohol.

I never played sports when I was growing up. I wasn't a sporty person at all. I found that when I started living a cleaner life and I was about 18 or 19, I just wanted more out of my life. I knew the direction that I was going to get that, and I knew the direction that if I went the other way, where it was gonna leave me, I had a lot of friends of mine were a few years older than me, so they were a great milestone of, oh, if I stay on this path, that's where life is going to be.

Unfortunately, six men in the last four or five years that we've buried who are my age, I'm 40, they're all fathers. They died from drugs and alcohol. They just, you know, suicide. Some, some was overdoses and, and we could see that trend very much alive when I was 18, 19, there was a lot of suicide happening.

There was a lot. So there was a lot of things that were happening to point me in the direction of this is the life that you want. If you, if you want this life, keep moving in that direction. There was just one or two adults that just saw something different in me and it just point me in a different way.

And we're naturally drawn towards. Our abilities to regulate through resistance. If we're dysregulated, give me something now. Give me my phone, give me chocolate. Give me a takeaway. Give me porn. Give me gambling. Give me something that, will give me instant gratification. It's a lot harder to tie your shoes and go for 10 K and hopefully feel the benefits after, but I think I just started telling myself a different story and painting a different identity, and they were all the shifts.

Then that just completely changed the trajectory of my life. So then you start looking for evidence to prove who you want to become, and then when you start seeing glimpses of that, you lean more into that. And I can see that can be quite a lot of work, especially if you've struggled in school and then went on an academic path where you had to do lots of, reading

and assignments. And it's not easy. Has have things changed for young people in terms of how the school system supporting them to, higher education or training or Jo you know, is it any different from the time you were in school?

I think there's probably a lot of things in Georgie, you might see this as well around dyslexia or a DHD and, autism that are misunderstood by schools and some amazing teachers out there doing amazing things. But some just don't know what it is or don't believe it to be true.

That's just made up. It's not a real thing. And then they don't know what supports to put in place. If you're to look at what a school setting is, it goes against everything that a nor divergent brain should be doing. Sit down in a chair and listen to me speak for eight hours about things you have no interest in.

And let's see how we go. Like that is like, none of it makes sense. We're supposed to be free. We're supposed to move our bodies. Somebody learning can be pacing up and down in the classroom, but we can't have that 'cause it's gonna disturb somebody else. I hear them banning sensory doors in some schools.

I'm like, what? I know. It's, so I think we're shifting, but it will be true crisis. Not true. Looking at the systems and saying, how can we offer more support? It'll come to the point where this absolutely is fragmented and broken. And I do think with the way software is going, the way chat, CBT is going, the power of owning knowledge is worth less and less as years pass.

In other words, you have someone who's a PhD, they are worth something. They are like, oh my God, that's a professor in this or a doctor in this. I can find out all the information that he has in about 15 seconds by typing it into my phone. So knowledge, how we know it isn't worth as much as what it would've been in the past.

And I think if we were to look at the leave search system, even that structure that I'm up against all the time, battling with young people who think their identity is in, a mark and they know they can't get it 'cause they're anxious, they have adhd, dyslexia, autism. You will have the path that you want.

It might just look a different direction. So. I don't know how schools will shift. We seem to be kind of stuck in this. Let's lock 'em on a seat for eight hours great if we got away with that 200 years ago. But like, I dunno, can we not, we struggle with it. I totally agree with you.

And as you said, there are some absolutely brilliant teachers. It's such a tragedy that you might get one teacher within a big group who, are, very interested in neurodiversity or dyslexia, and they go off and pay for their own training in their holidays on the weekends.

And then they are constantly beating the drum. But unless you've got leadership who is willing to take this and move with this and go, do you know what actually a third of the classroom. Has a learning difference. You know, we need to cater for everyone, because we are losing that third, whether it's hyperactivity, dyslexia, dyspraxia, a speech and language difficulty, whatever it is. I mean, there are schools where I find, for example, there are schools that might have an autism unit, and some of the staff or majority of the staff will have some training on autism.

But there's also a bit of a kind of ethos of, oh, well that's for the unit. Not necessarily applied as multisensory teaching in the school. There is more stuff like exploring creating, like I run the dyslexia workshops and, some of the second level tutors there are great at doing things like, pretend podcasts, and a bit of drama, but of, and get a real kind of, they don't expect 'em to sit down in the workshops and they, you know, it, there's a lot more flexibility, but it's very difficult 'cause you've got big classrooms, you're trying to have control as well.

Training is key. Training, training, training, I find it totally nuts that you have to pay, basically if your leadership isn't willing to shout out for the whole group, that they're only willing to take it forward for those who are more able. And there is a contrast in the schools when you see that,

very sad, really, as you've said. But yeah, sorry, I, I've got a real be in my bonnet bat training as you, as you can hear. But I think also the systemic issue as well, like, sometimes I find that teachers, as fantastic as they are go get training, do all that work, and then they're fighting against a system that doesn't allow them to teach the way they want or, or to, to, to, to, to try and do things the way that is best interest.

Because again, it goes back to a junior cert or leaving cert or if it's other countries, then there's some sort of examination that's very square peg, round hole situation. There's always some exam at the end of it. There is, but I do believe you can implement multisensory teaching in the classroom and still get those objectives.

I think if you are trying to reach them through different senses rather than just where the teacher is talking and the pupils have to sit down and listen, then, if you could try and be more, I mean, some of the schools I've been in where they're still expecting the kids to write down stuff off the whiteboard, who've got dyslexia or processing problems they get like three words down and then they dunno what's, you know, what they're meant to be doing.

And I can't believe that's still happening. Sorry Ric, it was a commitment I had to make in college. When they said, take the notes down, I was like. I can either take the notes down incorrectly and not read them afterwards. I just sit there and put my pencil down and have an opportunity to take in what they're saying.

There was absolutely no way as an adult regulated adult that I have the capacity to listen to what they're saying and write down correctly what, what they were saying, or even a handful of notes. My notes at best were four bullet points, five at best. And if I was writing more than five in an hour class, I didn't hear the rest.

So we have to understand that we are making sacrifices for that, and I think training is key. I had sat and done training in many schools and talk about trauma in the lens of a sensory component talking about movement, talking about regulation, focusing on regulation over everything.

We have a regulated young person with the highest chance to learn and adapt it's regulation first and then learning will come next. But if the principals aren't paying for it, our systems aren't paying for it, unfortunately, they set the tone for the rest of the school.

If we're all looking up at the leaders saying what's normal, what's okay, and if they don't prioritize trainings teachers will naturally feel maybe this isn't worth it, it isn't worth the energy. And I've a huge level of empathy for teachers. I have friends of mine that are teachers, they're in a classroom, they've got a curriculum, they have a job to do.

They have 30 students in front of them. I've had conversations with many of them, like, how do you navigate that? They're like, I know there's people in my class. I can't give the attention that they deserve and unfortunately they will fall to the wayside and I'm putting all my energy into the middle

area just to try to keep them afloat while the high achievers are gonna do fine, whether I'm standing beside them or not. I was like, it's heartbreaking. The decision was made for many young people when they walk through the front door that they've been selected as, they're not the ones that are gonna get attention.

I was one of them in school. I was told because I was moving and I was out, to get in the corner, sit outside, pick up rubbish was what, why, what my main job when I went to school is, here's a bag, go outside, you wanna move? This is, this is your job. So like, and then when they tried to embarrass them, shame them into, just 'cause they're dysregulated, like it doesn't open up a space for a young person to want to come back.

Yeah, absolutely. I was often sent out, surprisingly for talking. That was my issue. My school friends still kind of laugh about it, but there was a science lesson. I was outside the door of the classroom way more than I was inside.

And I just remember standing there gazing up at the sky, going, what a waste of time. I'm learning nothing here. This is the lesson I should be in 'cause I don't understand it. But yeah, there's so much that could be done I always find it, interesting when we're talking because you were in the UK then you were in the, you were in Ireland and I studied it with Indian curriculum, which is I.

Far more restricting, like my books would come back with big red marks, poor handwriting, terrible handwriting, and then have impositions that you write a hundred times. I will write properly. Very Victorian punitive. And I know my brother really struggled, definitely A DHD, they're not yet diagnosed, but, again, you know, different school systems have different expectations out of their students.

Some are better than others. But what I want to ask you Port is did you find the university level was better in that way and more supportive? Or was the struggle still there at that stage? I've experienced from three different places I did a year course

which I'm about to. I, did an undergraduate in social care in MTU. It was CIT at the time, and then I did the undergraduate in occupational therapy in UCC and the Master's in positive Psychology in UCC. I would probably advocate the same as other people using these services. There isn't enough services.

I was able to advocate for myself. I was able to send a second or third email to try to access these services to push for them. Thank God I was strong enough for that because they were difficult to access lot were really good, and they were the ones even supported me to get a dyslexia diagnosis.

UCC had some software but it was hard to access services there. You had to fight to access it. And MT U is the same. They help, but there's a lot of expectation that if you can access software. Then you are exactly the same as everybody else. Like if they're like, oh, but you have read and write goals, so you're fine.

I'm like, the struggles isn't just bell check. It has so much more going on for me. Even just trying to read and digest information like Audible book has been a game changer. I have a hunger for learning, but I learned through visual, I learned through auditory. I don't learn by sitting and reading at all.

And then, when I was studying, there wasn't enough access to turn a lot of those documents into Audible. There is now Speechify and there's some other things that can be really helpful. So as a service they try, it's not perfect, but is there a service that is as well? Did you find the additional time at third level? Helpful? I didn't. It wasn't organized very well. So for me, I'm very auditory sensitive. I would sit when I was doing my exams before loop, headphones were trendy and cool. I used to sit and just read like this 'cause any bit of noise at all, people opening their paper, sniffling anything I couldn't think of anything else.

Even trying to access the bathroom which I was doing just to move my body and regulate myself. They didn't have enough support workers to be able to get me to the toilet. I was really dysregulated in those spaces. They were very overwhelming. They did their best. It wasn't ideal.

The extra time was okay. I don't know how they measure it either. I don't know how they can measure my processing challenges and go 15 minutes. Where is the scale? I think it's a difficult thing to do, you know, an extra 15 minutes per hour that should balance.

So I don't know how they do it. It's like you got 15 minutes or you got 10, or you got five. They were plucking it there was no measurable scale.

He has this, chance 10 minutes and see how we go. Or 15 minutes, whatever that looks like. I've been at a couple of school meetings this week and, the narrative has been, we can't treat that child differently 'cause other kids will miss out on, you know, on whatever else.

Like, we can't do but without, you know, and it's, it this real difficulty in understanding that giving this young person those accommodations will help pull them. Along to the level where they can engage a little closer, not even on par. That's the reality. It gets them a little bit closer, but it doesn't get them to the line.

And I don't know how we can adapt that. I get it. They have a system and a structure and not everyone's gonna fit into it. And for the education system to exist, it has to fall into a formulation system structure. This is how we grade. I get that. But my God, we could do better.

We could be a little bit more personable. We could be like, what are they seeking? What are they advocating? Are they seeking movement or people getting described, beside them who also have learning challenges. I'm hearing people using these services and they couldn't spell right either.

There's so many things. I mean, we're talking about third level where there is additional time. Because the second level, it is non-existent and it is extraordinary that Island is not in touch with that reality. For second level now Sex Island is shouting and screaming from the rooftops, trying to get that additional time and good for them, because that would bring them up speed with other European countries.

Just going back to what you were saying, at the moment, there's a great woman and I'm sure you've come across her deirdre Madden is a genius when it comes to assistive technology, one of the things that we discussed was because. So many people with learning differences have been assigned assistive technology.

They're now pulling back on scribes, because they're too costly and they're saying, oh, well assistive technology will solve that problem. But we have a huge issue with the fact that, there are a lot of second level students who are, not willing to use their computers in front of others 'cause they're embarrassed.

Then there's practices in schools where they're not encouraging the practice of, of assisted technologies. So when it comes to the exams, they can't use them or they've been using it on a particular screen and then they're given a different one. It's a bit of a disaster but, I know it works for some, it's not the overall answer just hearing from you shows, it takes a lot of work to get used to the assistive technology. That's what I found when I first went into Mt. U. They had the Dragon software and a few other, tools, which were fantastic. They took a lot of work. And again, for me, I was going in as a regulated adult.

Like most teens or young adults who are 18, 19, they're super self-conscious. They don't want to look different. They struggle with it. I didn't care about walking into the disability office there was a sticker on the door entering disability room, and for a lot of people, they're like, I don't want that.

I don't identify myself as that, so I don't feel comfortable. There was unnecessary barriers we're getting better, the language is shifting, we're opening our minds, we're having these conversations on a public platform. There is a shift. I would say 90% of the teenagers that are coming into my clinic are nor divergent teenagers that are so anxious because.

School is not serving them, it is emotional based school refusal. They have an inability to sit in that classroom because of actually what they're, what I'm seeing is like a trauma response of what school has given them a sensory overload. For me, trauma is, can their body get over the demands that have been put upon them and they can't, it's actually sitting with them.

So they are absolutely in fight, flight, freeze. They say, I want to go to school, but I physically can't standing at the gate. I cannot lift one leg over. I have absolutely froze. And that's the reality and families are at a standstill. They're like, I don't know what to do. And schools are improving because they can see it at a huge level.

Schools are like, we need to adapt, we need to change. We need to put something in place because. It is getting substantially worse. Some kids are cutting themselves to regulate themselves enough so that they can get into school that's what I'm seeing in clinic a lot. Absolutely.

And interesting what you say about the sensory overload and the sensory needs, because I remember about 15 years ago, sensory processing disorder used to be accepted as a diagnosis and they'd get resources and resource time and accommodations for it, but that stopped.

The Department of Education, they don't give a diagnosis of disorder anymore, as far as I know. So in terms of resources or accommodations or any, so everything for me is not everything but huge component of it. It's sensory, sensory, overwhelming, like the social component is huge.

That rejection, sensitivity dysphoria is massive. Any slight bit of challenge is perceived as something absolutely horrendous. To the point that they just break down and they can't attend. I've heard of schools, not allowing movement breaks, removing sensory toys, any ability, and really trying to hit home with what's the purpose of school.

If our purpose is to offer an education, how do we get them there? If that's our goal, how do we get the outcome? What we're doing isn't working? You want the same goal? Then we need to be adaptable. We need to change, we need to look at the body. We need to really open up about regulation.

What does that actually mean? I love the North sequential model. I talk about it all the time, and it's that ability to regulate ourselves first before we can build relationships, before we can actually use our prefrontal cortex to process any information and learn. It does not work the other way around.

We cannot start processing information if we're completely dysregulated. Our brain doesn't put the energy 100% into that. We now know this information. So how do we offer the training? As Georgie was saying, like how do we offer the training and schools to really show them?

And I know schooling can be forward funding and there's some other issues with that, but my God, like from a government perspective, this is where our funding should be going early intervention early years into training support teams, particularly teams that want to be equipped with the knowledge so that they can offer the care they want to deliver.

They got into a. And I think sometimes they get broken in the system because they're trying to survive now. And I hear that so much with teachers. A hundred percent. And I think, the resources that are needed like, I mean this is what, I have been talking about recently about, on a practical level, what could you do without having to buy really expensive resources?

The money really needs to be spent on the training. On the knowledge. Because actually it's changing a kind of style of teaching or even your approach to how the kids come into the school. Like, as you say, and I could not agree with you more, how do you expect a child to learn if they are not regulated?

Like the home life they might be coming from, or even the journey to school or what happened the night before might have sent them spiraling. Sitting down in the classroom and listening to a teacher or watching a whiteboard, could be almost impossible for them.

That's a huge amount of children who are coming in like that. And that actually doesn't cost money apart from the training of why is this so necessary? Why do we need to spend time helping these kids to be regulated before we then even start the teaching? Training, training, training.

Yeah. I agree. When I am delivering training in some of the schools, at the moment because of funding, it's few and far between. It, there, there is it, it it is a very small part of what I do. It's very, once every six or seven months maybe a school will get some funding together.

It happens, but it doesn't happen very often, honestly. Yeah. But would use analogies, like if you were, if I opened the door and left 2000 rats into this room and I closed the door and started asking you to process math equations, to remember what that spelling was on the board, you would be freaking out concerned about the rats.

This is all you can think about and get back your brain doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's not supposed to be filling and trying to learn some math or spelling because there's something else to focus on first. So focus on the regulation what do we need to do to mind ourselves?

I think it's empowering teachers to be creative. They want that. I think it's problem solving with them. I worked with one or two schools, one school in man, and I really love the principal's approach. He was like, it was around trauma. And she's like, I don't want just to agree of the teachers to learn this.

She's like, I want every staff member to right from the person who opens the front door from the principal, the vice principal to the trainee teachers. Let's get everybody into the room. Let's open up this conversation. Did a really good approach with it. And I think she wanted to change the structure and the system and just empower people, people were there with their notepads wanting to learn, and as I was problem solving with them, I was asking them what's working?

They were like, well, we have an outdoor space. If we bring them out for movement, if we have a different response and they come back, great. You have a strategy, you know that work. You have an outdoor space. There's even a little bit of a gym out there that gets them activated, that gets them regulated.

They can come back in. Do a bit of learning if we need to get up again and move, if they are half of the day moving and the other half learning, you're doing much better than a full day of sitting and no learning happening, we can go much further by adding, being a little bit creative and empower the teachers to say, this is something that has worked in the past.

Some of the teachers are super amazing. They've been incredible, and they're like, we need to find an answer. And they're so creative in that space. When they have the chance to be. Absolutely. I'm tutoring on a dyslexia module for isep and, the teachers on there are all self-funded and, you know, they go away with, they, they have to write reflective assignment and so many of them, God, I'm gonna do this, this, this.

I'm like, yes. This is so brilliant and, a great role model to the others, but, is your voice gonna be heard? I hope it is, unless you are able to get in-house training from someone who has trained and they're willing to train the others if, the leadership's worried about the funding, there are ways we can think outta the box.

And I just, maybe governmental decisions aren't seen with the bigger picture but even if they wanted to look at schools as a business model perspective, it makes good business sense to put the energy into offering the right training, the right support, and it reduces the cost that it will have later when they need so much more support.

It put it in the early years. Absolutely. Can I ask what works for you in terms of, 'cause you are not just an ot, you're a business owner as well and that's a lot of balls to juggle at the same time doing your clinical work and the business side of it. What works as a person, you know that you've rec, you've recognized that you have the A DHD traits and you have dyslexic.

What works for you? I dunno if you looked at my life, but you see it were wing it.

Instagram's alive. What works? I put lots of energy into the foundation. So for me, if it's a brain function, if this issue with noradrenaline and dopamine, I'm like, how do I ensure that my brain has long lasting both of them? Understanding there are certain things that activate my brain to help me focus, and then I put them in place and others won't.

Do I have negative habits? Absolutely. Would you find me scrolling on real too long? Sometimes, absolutely. But there's certain things that I've read so much about the research, I know that just 'cause I have a document and it's super important, doesn't mean it's gonna get done. Urgency is just a beautiful thing to put that pressure on.

Now I understand what's happening in the brain. My brain activates dopamine and noradrenaline. So it actually functions at a level that I'm supposed to get things done. Understanding the hack. Can be really good. Movement for any neurodivergent brain that comes through the door, is non-negotiable.

You have to have movement. Movement is free medicine. It's available to us, the free resource. Our whole body will function at a higher level, and our brain functions at a higher level. If we can encourage movement into our day. Cold showers are horrendous, but they do work, ensuring that we're having a good, balanced diet or omega freeze.

I just, every time I eat food, I'm like, this good for my brain. Is this walnut great? Good for my brain? And so I think of it from a brain capacity. If my brain is struggling to hold attention to task, how do I make sure it has the greatest opportunities? Sleep as well. Super important. My sleep sucks. I try everything with sleep, take magnesium, do all those things.

It's not perfect, but I work very, very hard. No caffeine past one o'clock. If I have a cup of coffee, I'm like, damnit, I really wanted that, but now I'm gonna be up till three in the morning. So it's understanding it, and I have to be really disciplined with myself.

If I start letting things fall apart, other parts of my life fall apart. So I take a sense of gratitude in the things that are working well, and I know it just takes a bit of graft, so I'd be disciplined in that I can see that it's a fantastic approach, but when you look at young people and their lifestyles and routines, they tend to sleep longer eat junk, and then they're on screens,

they have a very busy social life and it's very hard. I have two teenagers, at home and it's, I've tried to explain this, but just can't get, and, they know in some way that movement is important, an exercise, but sometimes it doesn't get done

can't be bothered. So what can we do as parents? You're their mom, so you're straight away. The blank face expression comes over, come into clinic and they're like, my mom told me to do this. But it sounds cool when you say it. So you can give them all the great advice.

But from a young person's perspective, they need immediate joy. There needs to be an immediate reward for their action. If there isn't immediate joy or reward, the risk isn't enough for them. They don't care that it's good or bad. They have to love it.

So all young people coming through the door, if they're stagnant, I would love for them to move their body, find out what excites them to move if they're dysregulated, they will always be least resistant. Their phone is in their hands. Sugary food accessible.

They have cans of Monster. It is breaking down the reason of why you would want to do that, but actually sparking joy like, you know, a level of creativity different people will come in with different motives. They just need to find out what their intrinsic motivation is.

When you can spark their intrinsic motivation, the adults can take a back speed. Until you have that, the adults are just coming around going, you need to do this, put away this. But if you can spark their intrinsic motivation to engage in behavior, we can relax a little bit. And that takes curiosity and creativity.

It takes asking the right questions, exploring it with them, and helping it become their idea, not ours. And I think that's the turning point. Yeah. I hope you have two, empty slots now. Project. I'll be bringing my two.

Drop them over. What do you think? In your experience, you know, being an ot, as I understand it, screen time is actually very soothing for the, neurodiverse. But you must be in conflict because you know that movement's hugely important, yet you find screen time soothing.

My husband, he is often on the screen, at the end of the day, he's been outside all day and then he comes in and he's just. Looking at reels. And, you know, they're endless, these ridiculous things or, you know, fishing, how people fish in Alaska. He loves all that stuff, and he finds it really calming, just staring at a screen, not having to do anything.

If the brain is exhausted and you say he's outdoors all day. He's a carpenter, so he is constantly like, yeah, he, he's moved his body, he's tick the boxes. And for him decompressing at that point is, so he's been outdoors, he's had outdoor space, he's had his movement. He's tick the exercise box, and now this is the time to decompress.

That's enough. I do see every case has to be individual because I do see some people that are like, green time is really downregulating for a young person. And I think it, it, it is a needed tool at times to suit somebody depending on where they're at, but if they have the ability to engage in life and the world and we remove that from them by handing them a green and we are, aren't making the right decision for them, like we have to take ownership over that.

I have worked with young people, from the autistic community and for sure green time was something they needed to decompress but are we removing them from experiencing life, human connection, the world, or are we just giving them something to soothe them for the now?

And it can be used as a. Temporary, the length and duration will be up to a family it's a very addictive device. It's designed very clever. There's some very intelligent people clicking through the roll. AKA wheels. Oh yeah. You know, you know, doing all those things to keep you hooked

and it targeted the most vulnerable, lonely, isolated young people and adults. We are all guilty of it. I absolutely have to really check in with myself to stop myself leaning into it as not only an adult, but an adult who has read books on the dangers of using mobile phones. The Anxious Generation is a great book, but there's loads out there, loads of research to say that we need to take a breather from it.

And I can still, with all that knowledge, find myself leaning in and scrolling and going, where did that happen? Hour, an hour, hour ago? Like, I didn't gain anything from that. So, yeah, it's hard. And I do think when a young person is coming through the door and they're hungry for dopamine, it's, this is a device that gives it to 'em.

They're just trying to feed their brain with that, what their brain is hungry for. But for me, I'm trying to look at other sources, movement, cold showers, good food, good night, sleep. The attainment of goals, tasting goals is a fantastic thing for dopamine. Obtaining them isn't, but actually they stay for them.

So all of these things can heighten what our brain is lacking. And it's getting them excited about the process as well. If we have to get their buy-in, we don't have the buy-in. I'm just another adult talking at them, and they lose interest then. I remember, a good while ago, this parent said to me, this child was doing rugby and not really, he loves the rugby, but going into rugby was a problem.

So I said, what do you do? She said, I've told him it's like brushing his teeth. It just has to be done, no negotiations. And, having a blanket rule, which I thought was really good because otherwise it's gonna be hard for that young person to get from, being at home and on the sofa to the pitch, but having that rule to say, no, it just needs to be done twice a week.

This is, you just need to do it twice a week. Needs to be done. It works. Got him there. He loves it when he's there. But I think a lot of people with that executive functioning difficulty getting from. One space to doing another. The transition to another activity is so hard and that needs the support of, the adults around them too many steps, and it can throw people.

There's a great book, atomic Habits, and they speak about how to break down some of these steps to create hurdles in front of the life that you don't want and to knock down the hurdles in front of the life that you do. I actually think one of the greatest things is the identity that we have upon ourselves.

So identify myself as someone who's interested in fitness as a runner, as a gym goer. That part of my brain doesn't have to process anything because it's part of my identity. I know where my gym bag is, I know where my shoes are. I've cut down all of those hurdles. Everything comes really easy to engage in that activity

my body actually doesn't want to do most of the time because it's tired and exhausted. So if I were to ask my body, what do you wanna do today? They'd say on the couch with you, sir, cup of herbal tea and a chocolate biscuit, please. But I have to go, no, not today. I just need to do this. And then I can come back and have the herbal tea so I think killing those larger steps, and if that functions for her mom, that she's like, we just do it.

We don't need to have a conversation. This is today's Tuesday. Get in the car. I've worked with teams for years I worked in residential homes for about eight years with teenagers. How I asked a question often dictated how I would get a response.

So if I said fancy going into the beach, at five o'clock, answer, 99% of the time was no. Oh my God. Five o'clock into the car quick, we're going to the beach. They're like, huh? And then they're in the car. They're like, how this happen? And then we're at the beach and they're having a great time.

But they, if I'm, it's more statements and more action and more, let's go and let's have some fun. Easier said than done. But if there's windows of opportunities and you think about resistance and you think about effort, and for them everything is meh, do I have to, everything is hard. So we give them windows, pull back, often they'll jump.

And I don't want to take away choice either. I think choice so important, they should be able to advocate for what they want to do, but sometimes they need to have the fun first to realize that, you know what, I actually kind of like this. So get into the camera. I think, yeah, sometimes a bit of discipline.

I mean, I'm not talking about Victorian discipline, but I'm talking about that idea of. I need discipline my life. So I'm gonna have my bag packed to go to the gym. I do Pilates three times a week at 6 45 in the morning. Every time I'm going, I must be outta my brain.

But if I don't set my alarm, if I try and trick myself into going, well, maybe I'll have a sleep in tomorrow. Then I always feel rubbish. And I start the day badly. 'cause I'm annoyed with myself. Whereas if I do it and I finish Pilates, I'm like, you know what?

I'm quite proud of myself. It's a good thing. I've, somewhere along the lines someone said, discipline's a good thing. But yeah, it's finding the right one. For me, it's even paying somebody to be at the other end of a Zoom class, you know, whether it's my yoga or whatever.

Because if I paid an app, I'll be like, oh, do it later. I'll do it later. Knowing that someone's waiting. There, you know, we are doing a class together and it's live. That's what gets me there. Going back to these teenagers, however much they come across as I know what I want and this is my life and this is what I need to do.

They actually like being told what to do it might look like they're resistant boundaries actually. They, they, they do appreciate it and say, actually, we're doing this now, or, you know, this is the plan today. In, in eight years of being in residential home, the stronger the teams were on the day, and the stronger our boundaries were, the safer a young person felt because they were like, oh, the adults have a space.

Working with very dysregulated, traumatized young people. Sometimes they're trying to gain control by engaging in aggressive behavior violence or roaring if we held boundaries, we created walls of safety around them. It was love.

It was strict. This is what we do today we were going to give them a fulfilled day because children will make the wrong choices. That's why adults are there. If I allow my 7-year-old daughter to make all the decisions for herself, she dresses herself the weekends and she does her own thing there.

I have no weight over that. But food, I am the one saying, no, you aren't going to eat a cake for breakfast this morning. This is not how a day is going to function for you. This is where we step in and often aren't their friends.

And they might give out, but at the end of the day we're offering safety and we're offering love. And I would say that to teens when they come in. It seems like mom is giving out, but if mom didn't care, she just wouldn't have conversations with you and she'd like to do your own thing and she'd pull it back.

She cares and she loves, every boundary she puts in front of you is a sign to say, I love you enough that I want more from you than what you're going to do for yourself. I think that's so important, that idea of safety. 'cause you know, the chaos that some kids come from and how they might start their day not having any form of direction or guidelines it's so stressful and chaotic.

And also if you've got a neurodiverse brain, sometimes your brain feels chaotic. So you've got a chaotic environment and a chaotic brain and you are just scrambling around looking for some kind of regime they say a lot of, ADHDers go into, the service, like the military service, the police service, the fire service.

'cause they like the structure that comes with it and the discipline that's enforced in it. And something to work towards rather than chaos everywhere. We worked with a lot of young people in residential who were really happy to be put into a more secure unit, which would've been a lockdown unit,

and when I asked them why, it was because we, we didn't have choice to cause chaos. It was like we had our breakfast at that time. We went to bed at that time, we'd play games, and they were like, it just took that, it was those really strong boundaries that functioned for them.

Choice for them meant a negative option. It didn't mean a positive on, it always was drawn towards the immediate negative, so it's like, it, it was taken away so they felt safe, when safety was created, they felt regulated. It wasn't that they were always trying to fight.

They just felt like, oh, this house can hold me, so I'm okay here now. I always say it's a very fine balance between letting them have some control and then keeping, those boundaries. And it's a hard one for any parent. And you have a neurodiverse child thrown into the mix. It's pure chaos.

And I think, like, like to the parents that have neurodivergent young person and they're trying to go through it, they're trying to survive and they're on a 24 hour, seven days a week. That doesn't end. They're doing incredible work with very little breathing space.

The decisions they make aren't perfect at times, but they're doing their best. I'm so impressed by anyone that comes through the clinic and the parents that do come through the clinic

we're all regulated, fresh adults coming in and we burnt out. And then we have parents that are just in it all the time trying to do their best. So whatever you can do to survive out there as well, you just gotta do, a quick question about burnout, because you said burnt out burnout and, A DHD burnout is a, is a thing.

Anything to say about that? Any comments or how you might manage it And that if you start living a line with your interests and your values and your strengths, it's a game changer in your life. If I was to be put in a system where I was told that I need to write reports and sit in a deck.

I would burn out in a day, but I get to design the life that I want to live and I'm living really aligned with myself so I can bang out 70 hours a week hours at work and I feel really good and engaging in something that feels really meaningful. So it's about designing your life and I think that's why a lot of people with A DHD end up becoming entrepreneurs because the systems aren't using them.

So they create their own systems they tend to be super hyper, so they tend to work a lot and that kind of suit the entrepreneurial life as well as you guys know. Thank you. That's, that's true. Why my husband is A DHD as well, so I know all about living with someone who's A DHD. Yeah, it's exciting.

It's always interesting. And not easy to relationships with people with adhd. Yeah, it And lots of complications with people with A DHD being a romantic relationship with them as well. So well done. You'll be the whole that day because it ain't easy.

But they can be very loving. And, I know we're making massive generalizations but there is this hypersensitivity that comes with it and very in tune with, how human emotion, which is a great, bonus. When they love, they love intensely.

Thank you for taking the time. Thank you so much. Thank you. So nice to meet. Bye Byebye .