How to Master Sales Techniques and Work Smarter, Not Harder with Lee Holman

In this episode of the Elite Agent Masterclass, hosts Jack Durkin and James discuss the journey of Lee Holman, a partner at The Avenue. Known for his unfiltered and straightforward approach, Lee shares insights on balancing work and life as a self-employed estate agent, the importance of brand, and how he achieved a fulfilling lifestyle working fewer hours while maintaining high standards of service. Lee’s candidness and real-world experience provide valuable lessons for anyone considering the self-employed route in real estate.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Introduction to Lee Holman:
   • Lee's background and character.
   • Warning for explicit language and candid discussions.
2. Work-Life Balance:
   • Lee discusses his current work situation while on holiday in Cyprus.
   • He highlights how self-employment allows him to balance work with personal life, working 15-20 hours a week on average.
   • Importance of setting boundaries and recognizing when you’ve "made it" in terms of personal and professional satisfaction.
3. Transition from High Volume to Quality:
   • The shift from a high-volume, high-pressure environment to a more focused, quality-driven approach.
   • The initial guilt of working fewer hours and the adjustment to a new way of working.
4. The Value of Brand vs. Personal Brand:
   • Lee's perspective on the importance of having a strong brand to open doors and how it complements personal branding.
   • The role of brand recognition in gaining client trust and establishing credibility.
5. Starting Out in Self-Employment:
   • Advice for those considering the transition to self-employment.
   • The significance of taking risks and removing safety nets to truly test and realize one’s potential.
   • The importance of having a strong support system and being honest about where you stand in your readiness for self-employment.
6. The Power of Sales Training and Tonality:
   • Lee shares how sales training, particularly in tonality, has significantly improved his client interactions and conversion rates.
   • A specific example of how adjusting his approach during a valuation led to winning a difficult client.
7. Closing Thoughts:
   • Emphasizing the need for continual learning and development.
   • Th

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Transcript

Welcome to another episode of the Elite Agent Masterclass. Today, Jack Durkin and myself are joined by Lee Holman. Lee is a partner alongside us here at The Avenue. We've known Lee for a long time. Lee's a very interesting character. He's got a brilliant story. to share. This episode could be a little bit like Morse code if we have to bleep out the expletives. So anyone with a sensitive nature, you probably won't want to listen to this episode if you're a little bit sensitive to the occasional F-bomb. But we're okay with that because Lee is real. He's raw. He's to the point. And most of all, he's a top, top bloke. Lee, welcome to the Elite Agent Masterclass. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. I was about to say how brave you are having me on, but as long as Tom or Ben's with the bleep machine, I think I'm going to be all right. You'll be absolutely fine. And there's a very specific reason, Lee, as to why we're recording this with you now. So do you want to share that with us? Okay, so I think it's important to say, because when you're self-employed, I know there's a stigma around that when you go on holiday, you have to work. It's different. I had a week and a half of admin and follow-ups to do, so I decided to do that in Cyprus. Not going on holiday and working. I knew what I had to do, and I chose to do that in Cyprus, if that makes any sense. It does. Yeah. So you're currently sunning yourself in sunny Cypress. How hot is it over there? Mate, it's roasting. The plan was to be out by the sea with the sunglasses on with the sea behind me, but it's too hot. I'm in the air cond room. I just couldn't do it. It's far too hot. As you can see, I've only been here, what, two days? And I'm burning. It's not working. Yeah. Five applications there, in fact, if this is not working for you. It really is. No, it really ain't. So the reason why you wanted to jump on and join us specifically this week is because you're away on holiday, you're with your family, you're enjoying some downtime in Cyprus. You... The one thing that I've recognized working with you for the last just over a year in partnership with The Avenue is that you have really found your groove with the work-life balance piece. And so that's why this episode is being recorded whilst you're in Cyprus, because you sort of said, well, that's what it's all about, right? You know, going down the self-employed path. It's all well and good earning fantastic money, which, by the way, it sounds like, you know, you're on for a really fantastic year. But it's about that balance. So what does that look like to you? Do you know what? I had a meeting with Jack. Was it last month? And you asked me that. And I simply said, and I know it might sound a bit arrogant, but I've kind of made it. I've got... I do... First off, before I start saying this, my customers are literally the reason why I do this job. And everybody gets, I've got five star review literally throughout my whole time. And there was a point of what I was saying, but I'm mumbling on and I forgot. I probably do around about fifteen to twenty hours a week. Maybe less, maybe some more, but on average, that's probably about right. So if you'd have said to me right at the beginning, what would it look like? Because I think everyone's got to have a ceiling or an aim, and I don't think a lot of people know where to stop. I think it's what I've got to this point, now I've got to get to that point and that point. And I don't know if anyone's ever going to be really happy with where they are. For me, I would say now I'm doing, what, twenty-odd hours a week. I'm not going to say how much I'm going to earn this year. And the majority of the time I'll spend it with my family. So in a nutshell, yeah, I've made it. I've done it. That's exactly what I wanted to do. I couldn't be happier with what I'm doing. I really it makes hair in the back of my neck stand up to hear that because you are right. A lot of people. When is enough enough? You know, when when do you reach that point where you're like, you know what? I've got a really great life here. The balance is good. And some people are addicted to work. Fine. If that makes you happy, as long as people are happy. But for you, you what point did you have that recognition? Was it a case of, right, I'm going to go on this journey. And when I hit this certain threshold, that's when I know I'm good. Or did you kind of hit this? Did you hit a point where you went, actually, this is my sweet spot? Okay. Well, look, we all know where we started and where we met. And we know what the hours we were doing there. And if you hadn't worked there, no one would believe that you'd have to do seven hours a week. Nobody would believe it. So it's impossible. And we had to do that. week in, week out, week in, week out. You felt you couldn't go on holiday then because you couldn't tell your customers because you've got so much going on. Do they actually want you to go on holiday? So I would say I kind of walked away from that, but I was, do I still want to do this? I was exhausted, absolutely exhausted. My phone, emails. And then I think I just took a step back. I was like, no, I love this. I just need to work harder. smarter, not harder. And it aligned after having a chat with you guys. I didn't join because of you two. I know everyone says that and it was a big factor, but I'm not going to sit here and suck you off and go, oh, Jack and James. It was literally... They had the first one. It's taken five minutes to get there. I'll take that. It was more every agent, every agent, whether they admit to himself or not, when they do their... property photos or anything they want to look the best and be the best I don't care what you say even when we was at that other place you still wanted to be the best you can mention purple bricks mate it's the yeah so when we was there the other words that are off uh off limits like you know stuff like that there's part of them ones we can talk about them all right fair play um you see I in a way I'm it even though it was everything was slapdash because you had no time to do it you still wanted the market to look the best for your customers and it just wasn't viable you couldn't do it whereas here after speaking to you guys obviously I've you know me and both me and kieran started following you from probably day one and it was like yeah these guys are gonna this is what it's going to be about and then it was weren't even a decision was it I remember speaking to you what end of November by December I had my first instruction and I was off I hadn't really looked back but the sweet spot see I'll just go off on a tangent here so you need to reel me in every now and then I don't know when it was I can't put my finger on it I just know that actually I do know when it was it was last month when Jack was saying what about this what about that and I was like no no I'm good and I was racking my brain to try and think how I could be better than I am now and I thought Yeah, I can't. And I think that's when I knew. It was an interesting one because when we spoke two weeks ago, I think it was now, the premise of the call was to catch up, see how the business was doing. I suppose really to chew over some challenges or get some ideas in terms of how we might be able to help. But yeah, the first thing he said to me was, look, everything's good. I'm in a really good place. And you even said you're not having to chase loads and loads of listings and wanting to you know take over the world it's but you were in a position where the leads that you were getting the instructions you were getting the business that you were getting was working well and you had your holiday coming up something to look forward to you've had what three or four holidays now this year but you're in a place where you've got that I suppose what you feel is a great balance Yeah. And the main thing, obviously, is that, you know, I know it sounds it sounds corny and cheesy and a cliche, but it's making sure that, you know, the customers are looked after because that's why everyone gets up. I don't care what you say. It could be money. But if you've got just constant aggravation, the money ain't worth it. We know that from our days at Purple Bricks. I wouldn't go back there now for a guaranteed hundred and fifty grand a year. Wouldn't do it. Because I spent no time with my family at all. Now, I do the school run every morning. Everyone hates doing Monday mornings. Guess what? I don't do nothing. Unless it's urgent viewing or evaluation, I don't do nothing. I have that Monday morning just to do nothing. Do you know, it's an interesting one as well because you refer to Purple Bricks and look, all three of us have been through that millstone. I did in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, back in the early days, It's not arrogance. It's just the reality. Most high performing agents that were in that business hit a point where it was like, this is not sustainable. And the only way for it to be sustainable is to spend money on support. But the reality was that the money wasn't that good. It wasn't good enough to start surrounding yourself with support without actually then having to go, well, if I put someone in play to support me, I've now got to do another fifty percent in terms of volume anyway. So all I'm doing is I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. But the point I wanted to make there is I don't think that's just exclusive to Purple Bricks. I personally do believe that it's probably quite prevalent across the industry. Purple Bricks was an extreme. Going out and doing five and six valuations a day was... ridiculous especially when you have to do marketing shoots and then you're getting pulled into progression no matter what bs gets spread that there's a support mechanism those guys are overrun bless them and if you want to give great service to your clients you are ended up getting dragged into the progression process as well so plus your viewings this is the point and I do think that then is probably more industry specific than it is maybe even exclusively to pb so moving forward then you kind of have been on a journey because you've been in the industry how long lee for twenty eighteen. So you've been in the industry for six years. You've been at PB. You've worked at another online agency. You then obviously partnered with us. And you said it earlier, you've gone through that transition of volume, volume, volume to now actually it's quality over quantity, better quality clients. What have you seen, whether it be mindset or lead generation or whatever the case may be, what have you seen as the biggest challenge from transitioning out of that high volume, low quality to low volume, high quality? It's kind of, at the beginning, and this is sounding really weird, but it's just going to go how it goes. You're always warned about that. I kind of felt a bit guilty of the lack of work I was doing. There's no real way of saying it. So it kind of went from a hundred and fifty mile an hour to sort of thirty mile an hour. But in that thirty mile an hour, instead of being able to deliver a service of, you know, purple bricks they was probably getting a thirty thirty five percent service I still got five star but here it's concentrating on the journey of the customer what they need so it's not just flying in all right paul and sue yeah you want to sell right bang sign up and go so now you know look we all learn a lot of purple bricks there's absolutely no denying that you know like things like the pre-call you know would probably would that be about I don't know So then I sort of took it a step further. So I would say I felt a bit guilty with the lack of work that I was doing. But then as long as my customers were constantly up to date with what was going on, I kind of then got at ease with it. I don't know if that made any sense, but in my head, it sounded fucking perfect. It made perfect sense. And I think Jack is probably the best one to react to it because I feel when we launched the business, you felt similarly. Yeah, very, very similar. I think it was a big change for me as well. Quite similarly going from, yeah, you call it a hundred and fifty miles an hour. And it seems to... It seems to slow down. I suppose it's more that you're very reactive at Purple Brick. So you're just constantly reacting to everything. Where have you got to change your mindset when it comes to self-employment? Because you have to be very proactive. You have to go out there and generate your leads and opportunities yourself. So I really struggled at the start. And one of the things quite similar to you, challenges I found was, yeah, having that guilt of feeling as though... am I busy enough? Am I doing enough? Am I working hard enough? And there was a real guilt for me. The other challenge, and I don't know if you found it yourself as well, but I was also wanting to win everything. I don't know whether that's an ego thing or it was just what I'd been accustomed to, wanting to go out there and win every single listing. Whereas I think for all of us, it's very different now. We want to take on the right listings. We want to take on the right clients. We want to provide the right service to them and only work with the clients that we really want to work with and take on the properties that we really want to take on, as opposed to being just everyone and everyone. I agree. Couldn't put it better myself, to be fair. Couldn't put it better myself. So when you first partnered with us, Lee, I want to share this. And by the way, for anyone listening, despite the fact that you're partnered with The Avenue, we did not, other than me saying, look, can we just avoid certain topics because of language that will be included attached to those topics and what have you. Other than that, we didn't prep The Avenue for this conversation. Oh no, that's why I said you're brave. I don't know what's going to happen. You didn't know. This could be brilliant. Absolutely. Or it could be a car crash. It might not be. Yeah, that's the thing. So when you first partnered with us, you'd come from that background of high volume. You were used to traveling the length and breadth of the southeast because you're obviously, you know, it goes without saying for anyone listening in that Lee is from Essex, as broad as you like. And so one of the big things that we sat down and spoke with you about, I think you, Kieran, and we had this conversation, I don't know, six, seven months ago, is you had a tendency when we first launched your business down in Essex to kind of go, if it's anywhere in the south of the country, I'll serve it. And you were traveling. What do you mean used to? Well, I'll do it now. But I feel like you've gone narrower and deeper. In the last six months. So rather than kind of going, we'll go all the way over there. You'll still, if the lead arrives, like the one in Bromley, that obviously landed as an opportunity for Jack as a potential buyer. Jack introduced you. You've then won a two point two million pound listing, which is what, an hour and a half from you, two hours from you. um so in that regard you'll still do the traveling but I think before there was like quite a lot of a you know I'll go out there and look for the business I'll go out there and I'll cast my net really far and wide whereas you've become more localized this year and and I don't know my opinion on what's happened for you now because obviously you and kieran work as a duo it seems like the business is a lot more organic now and there's less chasing involved is that a fair is that a fair reflection Yeah, do you know what? I think anybody that's going to jump into this... you would cast your net so far because you don't think you want to miss out on anything. So even now, it doesn't matter to me because I was at, before Purple Blix, I was at Express Estate Agency that were based in Manchester and I would get a phone call from Steve, the sales manager, and I'll be doing a week in Halifax or Leeds or Wakefield or Newcastle. And I've got to tell you, I much prefer it up there, if I'm honest. So going in and around for the right instruction, never really, even today, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know, I've got properties in Turkey for sale. If anyone's interested in properties in Turkey, I'll go wherever you've got to go. But yeah, look, I think at the beginning, everyone makes not mistakes, but you kind of, you've got to audit yourself every little while and say, right, that hasn't worked, that hasn't worked. So flying out letters to here, there and everywhere, I think you kind of hone in. It takes a while. I think it takes everyone a while. And it was you guys. yeah yeah yeah whatever whatever whatever and then you think oh fuck it they're right yeah let's do it so it has been a lot more organic but then again I'll go wherever the thing is right doesn't matter to me there's got to be something in what those boys are saying yeah yeah well it's true like I say that's there's a there is gold nuggets from from a lot of what you say um don't listen to all of it. But why would I? You know, I've got to listen to the bits that, you know, I come to that meeting and there was about eight or nine bits I took away from that. I know the other couple of hours, but... That's what you need. It's golden nuggets. And I think you two are so different. Jack and I are very similar. You're very forward thinking, sort of, for want of a better word. No, not head in the clouds. That's wrong. But, you know, you're like, right, dream, dream, dream. And you'll make it work. See, I can't. That don't work for me. I'm like, no, it's got to be in front of me. It's got to be this. It's fucking got to be that. So I think the fact that you're so different. It works because at least one person will resonate with one or the other of you. And I think it's a good mix. I think having two Jacks or two of you, I don't think you would be the success that you are today. Look, again, we've not paid you to say anything, but really appreciate our feedback. Because, look, I don't mind being told that I've got my head in the clouds sometimes. No, that weren't really what I meant. It was like sort of you have sort of thinking. It's true, though. It's true. I spend so much – I spend more of my time – research and stuff that is absolutely nothing to do with this industry. Because I then kind of look for how can we bridge the gap between what that is and what we're trying to achieve so that we can innovate. And I love playing that role. Jack, you're absolutely right, is brilliant. If I was going to, and look, this isn't about rubbing each other's backs on this podcast, but I've worked with hundreds of agents over the last twenty years. I've had the luxury of working with hundreds of agents. And I have the pleasure now at The Avenue of working with probably three of the top five agents I've had the pleasure of working with. And Jack is comfortably within that. He's just an exceptional agent, does everything from front to back so, so well. So if anyone wanted to replicate a process, for God's sake, never replicate mine. Follow Jack's lead. I think it's good. We think different. So I'm much more of a short term thinker. James is much more of a long term thinker. So if you need those quick wins, then yeah, I'm here to support you. If you're looking for business planning for long term growth, then James is your guy. I think there's a good blend there, which is good. Yeah, agreed. Very briefly, Lee, but one of the questions I wanted to ask was, you've obviously recently joined forces with Kieran, someone you've known for a long, long time. First you were within the Avenue. How are you finding that? What was the differences? How has it been since kind of partnering up and becoming a team? So I knew this question would be asked. And I remember laying there last night and I was thinking, I don't even remember when it happened or how it happened. I've got to be honest with you. There's not a point where I can think that Kieran and I said, oh, let's do it. There probably was, but I can't. It just kind of went and then merged together. And I can't put my finger on it. I'll ask him. I promise I will get to the bottom of it. But I don't know, really. It was kind of like, look, We kind of work the same way. Obviously, he wants to do some stuff that way. I want to do it that way. But it's the same. It's normal. But I don't know when or how it come about. But it just did. And it's good because you've got... Like now, if something needs to be done, Kieran picks it up. When I was at home last week, Kieran went away. I'll pick it up. And you've also got two... you know, like, blame me on Trump, exceptional agents that can go into any property against any agent and win it. As long as, you know, we're talking same value, you know, someone's not overvaluing it, we'll win it against anyone, anyone. Yeah. So it just kind of makes sense. That's just fact. No, it's true. It's true. Like, I think my conversion rate last year was, like, Yeah. Yeah. So it's just facts. It's just facts. So obviously you boys now work, you work as a duo, you're down in Essex. Um, obviously you joined us a bit earlier than Kieran. Um, gone on the journey for anyone listening in because we've got we've got a real varied audience we've got some people who are in a situation where as for argument's sake say they're in employed world and they want to transition but for one reason or another right now it's just it's just not an option well some people that might be or I know that listening that are part of other brokerages where there maybe isn't quite so much support or there aren't so many frameworks or innovative ideas whatever what would be your biggest piece of advice disconnecting us biggest piece of advice to anyone that's considering going down the self-employed route you know Okay. So look, do you know what? There's never the right time. Even when you guys were to start this business, you could have probably put blockers in the way. Oh, this is happening, that's happening. Look, when it's a big decision, it ain't ever the right time. When I went into self-employed estate agency, the first thing I'd done, and I think the wife wanted to kill me, is I went out and got an expensive Mercedes on HP. Okay. And that was it. I was like, this has got to work. It will work. I think everybody sees it as you go in alone. And that's it. You're self-employed. You're on your own. Partnering up with somebody that you know has got your back and is also equal. We're quite rare. I don't think there's many that do that. I do know other brokerages. I'm not going to say. But they'll take you on. And you can actually be an estate agent, if you like, underneath them. if that makes sense. So you can kind of all go on and then start bringing people on and you could make up your own name and be powered by whoever we're talking about there. So there's no difference really between it. You know, you can go it alone, but it's funny you say that. Hopefully these people are listening. So when I was in High Street for a while, there's two people that make a brilliant team and I want them over not for any other reason than they're too good for what they do individually I don't know if they would make it. I know it sounds really bad, but there's reasons they might do. They might not, but as a pair, a hundred percent would make it. So if you are out there and you've, you know, like high street, let's be honest, what get in the office at half eight, go home at six o'clock, pray for a fucking viewing. So you can get out the office. Like we all know what it's like, um, promise promotions, promise this. And it never happens. So I think everyone dreams of where I am now. Everyone, everyone, But you've got to have a little bit of risk. And it ain't as much of a risk as you think. What I would say to anyone is one thing I know about you two is you're very honest. If you think they're ready, you'll tell them. If you think they're nearly ready, you'll give them advice on how to be ready. And if they're not, you'll fuck them off. So it ain't like the other ones where they just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, come on, come on. I know that you guys have got that kind of way about you because I put someone forward to you that I thought, He's going to go straight in. I'm not going to mention his name. Covered Ilford area. And then you said he didn't have the going out and getting the lead. So you thought you didn't want to set him up to foul. And it made perfect sense. So if there is anyone out there listening, what I would say is just have a chat with these two. And I ain't playing them. I get nothing out of it. have a chat and see exactly where you are because you might think you're here, but you might, I don't know if you can see me, you might be further along than you think. Do you know what I mean? So it always will help just to get that, find out where you are. It's interesting you say that, Lee. It's interesting you say that because, Jack, you'll probably, well, you will agree because you've sat in the meetings. We've had meetings with some people or conversations with some people where their own belief, and look, I'm never going to knock anyone that's got belief in themselves. If you can't have belief in yourself, then don't expect clients to have belief in you. So you have to start with some self-belief. But we've met and spoken to people with very, very limited experience, but they've got this attitude. And they're like, but we can do everything ourselves. We don't need the support and the frameworks and the guidance and the network. We can do it all ourselves. That's cool. Best of luck. But I don't want to set you up to fail because you haven't got, I promise you, you haven't got everything that you need. I'm twenty years long in the tooth in this industry and I don't believe I've got everything I need. I believe I've got a lot of what I need, but I'm constantly learning and looking for new ways to do things so that we can continue to innovate and develop. But then there's other people that are incredible. Like they are. They would set the world on fire and create an unbelievable business. And they're like, well, I don't know that I've run ready or I don't know that I'm good enough. Jesus Christ, like you're unreal. You'd be you'd be incredible. It's that mindset piece as well, isn't it? I think it's a challenge for people. Like you said, there's always change that's happening. You've got to keep on learning and developing and sharpening your tools to make sure that you're a step ahead. But it's very difficult to do that when you're also trying to build your business up from complete scratch. So where do you find the time then to learn unless you're part of a network of agents that continue want to want to improve and develop and I feel that's what we're looking to build is a network of agents that are like-minded forward-thinking want to share new ideas and innovate the industry and just make things a better place um coming back to one thing that you mentioned at the very very start of that was um putting yourself under a little bit of pressure you bought a car on hp just as you started your self-employed estate agency that must have been some pressure just as you're going down. Do you know what? I've, look, so it's just exactly what James said there. You don't know how good you are until that safety net's removed. like you can have the let's be honest right in high street you think you're safe you're safe for three months rest me fingers you're safe for three months as a valuer and then you'll be on if you're shit you've got three months probation and then you're gone am I right am I wrong They're not going to keep giving you leads if you're not – so you're actually safe for three months. So thinking that that is a safe – that's the hardest place to be because I could have two months here, which I think I did. I think we had so much going on last December, January, February. I think March and April we didn't – we might have all won. Now imagine if that was in another industry, one instruction in two months, but it didn't matter because we had so much before that. I don't have to – Obviously, it'd be an issue if I wasn't bringing anything on or our pipeline. It's a shame I ain't got my board in front of you because I'd probably wipe off a few of the postcodes and I would show you how much that we've got on. Like I say, it's removing that safety. That's when you know how good you really are. It ain't when you've got the safeness in the back of your mind that, oh, well, if that don't work, I'm fine. You're not. You only regret the things you don't do. I agree entirely in terms of the pressure I mean we had a previous podcast we discussed self-employed state agency whether you could take a part-time job or whether you had to throw yourself all in and look there's debate across the industry it can work for some people for me personally the type of person I am I have to be under pressure to be able to perform and I think unless you put that pressure it's like a task will take you as long as the time that you've got however The same with having a bit of pressure. If you need to hit a certain figure by a certain deadline, otherwise you're going to really struggle financially. Then you're going to make sure you do everything you can to hit that time frame. If you've got a lot longer to get there, you're going to take a lot longer and you're not going to put the pressure on yourself to get the job done. So I think pressure is an important thing if you're looking to start a state agency. There's never any perfect time. Put yourself under pressure and let's see how you perform. It's an interesting one as well, isn't it? Because you touched on people's attitude around employment being safe. And it's such a fallacy. You know, it comes from generations before us. Go and get yourself a safe job. Now, estate agency is such a volatile industry. It only takes three or four months of poor income in a business and they start making layoffs. And they start making people redundant at a moment's notice. And so is that really that safe? Is it? But if you're in control of your own destiny, all you've really got to do is get your head round what you do to survive the first six months, seven months of your self-employed business. And I think the big thing is that, again, is the level of pressure, isn't it? It's the, you know. We've spoken to loads of people that have got loads of ability that could do very, very well. But the one thing standing in their way is a lack of start cash. And the issue with that lack of start cash is they'll never have it because they're in an industry and in a job where the money only just pays them enough to keep their head above water and they're paying their bills. So they're never going to have that money unless they take a risk, whether they refinance the house, whether they raise the money through a bank loan. But then that pressure that is applied gives them the freedom further down the line. Because they are in control. The market doesn't dictate whether a self-employed agent succeeds or fails. It's their own inputs. It's their own efforts. If you were someone that was bone idle and fifteen to twenty hours a week, by the way, that you work, you talk about that like it's... But the reality is the fifteen to twenty hours you're doing, I know full well that for you to have that little time invested, because it's a it's a part time job, really, isn't it? When you put it into real terms, it's that you're doing fifteen to twenty hours of graft. Give you the remainder of your time back. You're not working fifteen to twenty hours and then spending fifteen hours of it just scrolling through Facebook. And that's what, you know, let's be real. A lot of agents sat behind the desk in an office there. They're knocking in fifty hours a week. But really, it's thirty of them are probably a complete waste of time. I'll make you laugh. So I've got the instruction. So I had a property on the market and they sent a view in request dinner. Someone sent a viewing request, I want to say about half nine at night, and I replied to it, why wouldn't you? So it come through Lifecycle, I saw it and I thought, oh, I'll reply. So then we're just having a little bit of text conversation going back and forth. It turns out they had a property to sell as well. now I didn't know this first of all because they put cash buyer that wasn't my reason for messaging back I always messaged back straight away and they was like oh I can't believe you've messaged back this time and I was like well you've messaged me I'm not going to ignore it and um they said oh can you come and look at our property I was like okay no worries I said I thought you was a cash buyer I don't know we've got a property to sell and I remember going there and I promise I said these words as well um It was like, yeah, I can't believe he was replying at ten o'clock at night and working. I went, I'll give you exactly what I was doing. I was laying in my pants in bed watching two and a half men replying to you. But the fact of the matter was, because everybody's on their phone now all the time, why would I just ignore it? It come through and I know that you're looking at my property online. Why would I not? And I always say this to customers as well. The busiest time on Rightmove, we all know, guys, is between, what, six and nine o'clock at night. Agreed, yeah, it is. Because why would I not be awake at that time? It's like being an ice cream man in the UK and pissing off for the whole six weeks holidays abroad. It makes no sense. I'm awake when the market's awake for my customers, but I want them to not feel that I'm sitting in an office... the laptop waiting for it to happen because that would then be false I'm not I could be I know in the hot tub I could be out at whatever or what like laying in bed watching two and a half men like I was at that time um but it's it's making sure you look because then I ain't lost that instruction and I've got something from that because I replied at a silly time at night it becomes a lifestyle doesn't I was going to say it's the lifestyle. So the fifteen to twenty hours that you've referenced, I think people listening in need to be clear that that what you've just said that isn't part of that fifteen to twenty hours. That's just a come through. So I'll pick it up. That's not worse. That's just a very quick response to someone. And it's that lifestyle. But it's also those little one percent. And that's the one thing that I've really enjoyed about the relationship we've had in partnership with you is that you're always open to the idea of those little one percent that can make the difference. You recognize if someone comes through to you after six o'clock of an evening, you've immediately got a competitive advantage immediately. Great. It makes sense. What's the harm in dropping a very quick text? Thanks for inquiry on such and such address. When would you like to come and see it? Or can we arrange a call to have a chat or whatever? That little touch makes such a difference. So yeah, I think there's so many nuggets of gold. You said at the beginning, oh, it's a bit of a risk avenue one. I knew it was a risk in terms of some of the things you possibly could say. Yeah, I've been really well behaved. In reality, it's been some questionable comments. Not for me. That's my best behaviour. Anything other than that. There is one thing I want to touch on. I remember this from our first ever interview, if you want to call it that. And we disagree. And I remember hearing it with you speaking with Emily about it. Brand and personal brand. And I know that you guys put personal brand and think it's way more important. And I heard you say about Elon Musk and I agree with you in a way, but. For me, I think the difference between the importance of brand and personal brand, I think it's important at different stages. Let's talk for argument's sake. You said about Elon Musk, but would you have heard of him? He might have more of a following, but would you have heard of him without Tesla or SpaceX? Mark Zuckerberg, would you have heard of him without Facebook? Bill Gates, would you have heard of him without Microsoft? Maybe they've overtaken it, but I think it's the brand that, for me, is the most important thing, first and foremost. And I always say that. I love that, Lee. I love that that was so high on your agenda that we've not even discussed it. Yeah, because I heard it and I thought, nah, bollocks, I ain't having that. I've got to get with me. I've got to say what I've got to say. OK, so to translate that, then your view is that having a brand that can be recognised in some way behind you. I'm just trying to translate this for the way in which you've explained it. So I think brand is what gets you to the door. Everything else is on you. But I think brand is what gets you to the door. And without a good brand, I don't think you get to the door. I think it's one of the reasons, I think, why we've built the models for the Avenue model at Brokerage in terms of the way that we did do that. Because, yeah, it gives the agents the credibility that they need. Sprinkle a little bit of their personal branding on top of that and their personalisation and get their personalities across. And that's what's going to win that instruction. But I do think a blend of the two is really important. I think with the self-employed models that are out there now, those that have got, a blend between personal brand and agency brand as long as there is a consistent theme across the agents in terms of the service or the marketing I think those are the ones that I'm seeing becoming really successful yeah I'd agree final question for you then Lee being that this is the Elite Agent Master what in your view does it take to be an Elite Agent bollocks You've got to have a big set of balls. Let's not butter it up. You can sit there and say, look, anybody, I promise you, look, this will go on LinkedIn. This will go on Instagram. I'll be tagged. Man, if you don't want to speak to these guys first, just ask me and I'll tell you now, there is never a right time. There's never a right time to really get married or have a kid or buy a house. There's never a right time for anything big. But once you do it and you know you've made it, life becomes easy so sit there thinking about it for the next ten years or just give it a try you don't need to have tons behind you I know the marketing is pretty much looked after with the systems that we've got so you don't need to throw a thousand pounds a week or a month of marketing you can kind of really focus it and even go out door knocking. I know everyone hates door knocking, but I actually am all right at it, to be fair. I just love getting in people's faces. One thing I have done, though, I've got to be honest, is I've done a lot of sales training with, I'll plug in, why not, Jeremy Miner. And it's a lot of tonality training. And I can tell you the difference between where I was and where I am now, just by being able to ask the same question in a different way, exactly the same question, but with a different tone. Yeah, like what you said about going back and keep learning. things I've learned off that bloke is unbelievable. Anyone that needs to go and try a hundred percent. So if you are thinking of starting off, have the right tools, speak to these guys, speak to me, speak to all the other agents at the Avenue. We'll tell you the same thing. You know, they ain't got a lot about it. You know, if you're not one thing here, You're never planning of moving on. And you are at Purple Bricks. You are at wherever you are. You're like, I hate this. I want to move on. Everyone does that. Probably on a Sunday night when they're thinking about Monday. I hate my job. I want to do this. Yeah, I don't have that. I don't have that. Love that. So grow a pair. I was going to say, just to summarise then, a pair of metaphorical testicles and continually learning and developing new skills. Yeah. Yeah. Every day. And there's a little cue for Jeremy Marner as well. We might have to get him on the next pod. Great shout. Could be expensive. I think from what I've learned from him, I think he's like top one percent. in the whole of America. But the tonality of being able to... I'll give you an example. I'll give you one quick example before I go and jump back in the pool. We'd done a viewing for somebody. For no reason, no fault of our own, we was late for the viewing. So we'd already pissed them off for giving the ump. And they was like, well, we want our house valued. And we already knew that we was one of four going in. We knew, look, they've got the ump with us. They're getting us in just for our... And I went there and they had quite a big downstairs. We'd done the office, downstairs cloakroom and the front room and got into the kitchen and it was frosty, man. Like, they didn't want me there. And I thought, I'm going to try what he said. And I did. And I went over and I said, look... Don't really know if I can help you yet. All I need to do is sort of understand what you want. You understand how I work and then we can sit down and have a chat. I've got no ball here. I don't go into evaluation with any presenter, anything other than just me. I said, I'm just here to have a chat with you. I said, we'll sit down at the end and we'll see where the right fit. Hour and a half later, I'm still in there drinking tea. By the time I got out and drove along, they'd started a WhatsApp group with the property name saying, we want you to instruct us. And that was a dead, I knew I was going in there just to give a valuation, but I tried that. This was, I used to go over a year ago. I tried that with what he said and they literally relaxed. They put the kettle on and so that'd be one of the best valuations ever. I think the great thing in that as well is you read the room and understood what point they were at in their journey and address that situation by changing up your tone. What a fantastic anecdote to end the pod. Lee, it's been a pleasure. Hasn't been too many risque things. We shouldn't get cancelled or get too many complaints. So, mate, we really appreciate you taking an hour out of your time whilst on holiday with the family. Go and enjoy some more sun. Get some more Factor Fifty on and have a good one. Got it right here, mate. If you can see it, wherever it is, I will be applying it. Thanks so much, guys. Take care of yourself. Take care, mate. See you. See you, mate.