No Plan B! How Ben Dunn’s Bold Moves Created a Winning Estate Agency Career

🎙️ In this week’s episode of the Elite Agent Masterclass, James and Jack are joined by Ben Dunn, a self-employed estate agent who epitomizes the meaning of going "all in."

Ben shares his inspiring journey from the high street to building a successful self-employed estate agency with no safety net. From remortgaging his house to support his dream to achieving results that rival annual salaries in his previous employed roles, Ben’s story is one of calculated risk, relentless determination, and the power of having no Plan B.

🔥 What to Expect in This Episode:

• Why leaving a corporate role can feel daunting—and how to overcome the fear.
• The mindset shift needed to thrive as a self-employed estate agent.
• How going all in forces you to make things work, no matter what.
• Real strategies for generating leads, delivering value, and building client trust.
• Why betting on yourself is the best decision you’ll ever make.

Ben’s transparency about the highs, lows, and lessons learned along the way is exactly what every estate agent needs to hear—whether you’re employed, considering the self-employed model, or already building your own business.

💡 Key Highlights:

• Ben's two completions that earned more than his previous annual salary.
• The role of mindset and resilience in navigating the self-employed world.
• How The Avenue Estate Agents' support model helped him grow and succeed.
• Why social media and networking are non-negotiables in today’s market.

This episode is packed with actionable advice, relatable challenges, and a whole lot of motivation to help you move past self-doubt and start creating your ideal estate agency career.

💬 Join the Conversation:
Are you ready to ditch Plan B and focus on what really matters? Let us know your biggest takeaway from this episode!

📺 CTA: Don’t forget to catch the full episode on YouTube for even more insights and strategies!

🔗 Stay Connected:
📲 Follow Ben Dunn: Connect with Ben on Instagram @BenDunn_TheAvenue and Facebook for more insights and inspiration.

Engage With Us
Have questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes? Send us your thoughts and stay engaged with the Elite Agent Masterclass for more expert insights on transforming your career.

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Transcript

Welcome to another episode of the Elite Agent Masterclass. Today, myself and Mr. Jack Durkin are joined by none other than Ben Romeo Dunn. That's the nickname he has acquired when he partnered with us here at the Avenue Estate Agents. We wanted to bring Ben on today. Ben's been on an amazing journey from being in the world of employed estate agency for, I think if I remember rightly, about ten years. And he then decided to explore the self-employed route and partnered with us earlier this year. Really great journey, really great story. And one of the main takeaways that people that are listening in that may be outside of that self-employed world will take from this is some of the risks you took that were calculated and some of the things that you've done differently despite having a decade of experience. So Ben Dunn, welcome to the pod. How are you, mate? Yeah, well, good, thanks. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's exciting having listened to all of them. So, yeah, it's great to get the call up. Really good to have you involved, mate. I've got loads of questions, but I'm going to jump over to Jack first because I know he has as well. This may be chronological. It may not. So, Jack, where are you starting, mate? Well, it's interesting. There's something that I want to go into a little bit deeper on because there is something that I think, well, you've had some amazing successes across your local business over the past few months, one of which two deals combined being the same as what many yearly salaries have been in employed roles before, which I'm sure we can dive into a little bit deeper. I'm keen, Ben, to find out, though, the transition from... So you were in an employed role before joining the Avenue Estate agents as a self-employed agent. How was that transition? How was it changing from employed to self-employed? And what was that journey like? Because I'm sure for a lot of people that are considering it, it can be quite daunting. Yeah, absolutely. Massively. And that was the word I was about to use, daunting. Because it's something that I'd hummed and aahed about for... just before covid I think it was when I first started like looking into it all um kind of doing research on it things like that and then covid happened and you just then get back into the swing of everything um but yeah kind of having young family with house all of that you've got the financial pressures of everything else um but yeah when you kind of get into it all yeah the big thing was was kind of daunting like well It's got to work. If it doesn't work, you've got to go back to get a job. And yeah, you've kind of took a big risk and a gamble for it all. So, yeah, you kind of got no choice but to make it work. But yeah, it was kind of a lot of pressures and a lot of adjustment, really. From going into an office day in, day out, seeing everyone to then suddenly being... yes obviously there's there's the support with everyone within the avenue and using the office but mainly working from home by yourself not having that day-to-day interaction with people um that's probably been for me a big adjustment as well um which like you know james we we still do a lot together in terms of collaborative stuff up at the office and things like that as well to to keep that side of it um but yeah kind of the big adjustments just been day-to-day kind of getting on with it by yourself, no one around, just chatting away and things like that that you get normally in an office. I think there's a couple of things that I've taken from your share there. I think coming into it with no plan B, I think it's really important that if someone's going to make a success of this world of work, then you've got to come in and give it everything. It has to be focused on plan A. Like this has to work. I like the phraseology because I think anyone that's coming in with a, I'll give it a go six or seven months. And then if it doesn't work, I can just, it's not going to work and you're going to waste money. Yeah. Yeah. You know, having a foot in two camps just isn't going to work. And the second thing is about that period of time you did your research for. So my question connects probably to that. You did a lot of research and I believe that there's a lot of people out there that are like you that want to dive deep. They really want to understand the granular detail of how it's going to work, what the commitments might be, how it's going to impact them financially. What was it that made you finally make the decision to kind of go, you know what, this now feels right? I think it was more came down to the financial side of things. So when I first started looking into it, obviously to start looking into it, you don't know what the financial implications are, what settled costs have you got, if any, monthly running costs, all that side of it. So kind of when I first started doing all of that, it was just more of a kind of a background. And I was probably looking at a longer term at that point anyway. I wasn't necessarily thinking about Because obviously, like I said, it was just before COVID. So that was probably like end of twenty nineteen. That started kind of exploring those bits, just looking into it in more detail. But yeah, it came down to it financially was more the thing of having the funds readily available to take that time to be able to then not do or not have an income, because as we all know, kind of being in the industry, it's not something where you can make hundred sales in a week and get paid on those hundred sales if you sell it like an item or a product um or something like that or you can start to generate an income immediately um but for us you need like we've said that seven eight month window of no income at all to be able to support you for that so that was kind of the biggest thing was the was the financial side So you obviously remortgaged your house. We said before we hit record, there was nothing that was off bounds. And I'm glad you said that I was okay sharing that because I feel like that really does hit home how bold you were how brave you were and how committed you were to plan a working like that's a big commitment with a young family you've got another little one on the way I totally related by the way when you launched because when we launched the Avenue I was in exactly the same position Stanley was ten months old Hayley was pregnant with Margo June February we launched July first twenty twenty one so when you and I spoke the very first time I was like this guy is gonna win because he is throwing everything on the line for this But it also made me, I'm totally committed to every partner we work with, but there was something in me that connected to your story that little bit more. And I was like, I have to make sure he wins. I can't do it for you, but I have to make sure he wins. I think with everyone, there's always risk involved. Yeah, we... Oh, bit of a delay on the line. Sorry, Ben. I think there's always risk involved, especially when you're looking to start a business. But for you, there was a lot on the line. There was your family, which was growing at the time, a growing family, obviously remortgaging the house. For you, do you feel as though going into this, you've obviously gone two feet in, thrown everything into it. Do you think that that's what's been able to give you the success and the drive and seeing your business grow as quickly as it has because of the efforts that you put in? Yeah, absolutely. It's like we were saying at the start, there's no plan B. Part of wanting to go into the self-employed side was something that again, over recent weeks, you guys have chatted about in the podcast, is that work-life balance with having the young family, having that flexibility to not miss out on some of these things, which you probably do if you're working full-time in an employed role. You're probably less flexible to do these things as the little ones are growing up and taking a bit of time out to go sports days or just school runs whatever it may be that's important so yeah there was kind of with not having that plan B it was a massive risk but then that reward side to it was something which to make the family lifestyle better over the next however many years um so yeah kind of had no choice but to go all in um from it and obviously again circus has to chase even since joining uh there's even more pressure on it all so uh so yeah it's uh yeah but it really helps you focus that kind of I think sometimes over years when you've been employed you always think could I do better could I do I'll go elsewhere what am I doing this for? What's the drive and things like that. But you get that daily now kind of being self employed, you're like, well, I've got no choice. So yeah, it definitely kind of makes makes more of an impact in that sense as well. So Jack obviously alluded to the fact that you've completed your first two completions combined financially were the equivalent of most people's annual salary. Basic salary on high street. Yeah. My question there is, obviously, I was looking back at the dates before we jumped on the call. So we did your onboarding week mid-Feb, and you went live. I think it was the ninth of Feb. So everything was set up. All the marketing went live. It was like, right, the lights are on. Ben Dunn, Michel over, little over, and surroundings is alive. How long was it between that moment and completing on your first deal? Was it about six months? Yeah, so... august was the first so almost exactly six months yeah yeah so end of august yeah So this question, this is obviously about the Elite Agent Masterclass, but like I said in the introduction, this is very much about those people that are listening in, considering going on the journey, what the highs, what the lows are, you know, the things that people are prepared to put on the line. And it's part of what tells me if someone's going to be elite or not is they're prepared to put everything on the line because they're going to give the kitchen sink and all. So all this risk, refinance the house, lots of pressure, family's growing. How were you feeling the first few weeks? Scared? Yeah, I think that element of self-doubt creeps in as well. Is it right? Can you do it? I think human nature is to have that there. But I think I was quite fortunate in the sense of a couple of early listings as well, which was through my network, just people... who I knew, friends and family, recommendation, obviously still had to go out and win the business. But yeah, kind of getting those first few listings on the board just kind of helped me relax a bit in a sense of, that kind of self-doubt going out that mind slightly, not obviously relaxed in a sense of, oh, I'll put my feet up now, I've got a few listings already, only a few weeks and it's easy. But yeah, those first few weeks, yeah, I think you kind of, again, it's that transition to self-employed of going in a busy office environment, knowing your daily, weekly, monthly tasks every day, you just go in and crack in. on this side of it, that first week after I've had the onboarding week, it's then like, right, there we go. I've got nothing to do. Like, no properties. No one's called. Where do I start? Yeah, that's got to be proactive. Yeah, absolutely. It's a big shift in everything, mindset, but then, like you say, productivity and even just job tasks in general. Everything's then completely different. Yeah, those first few weeks, very daunting. But, yeah, can I say that? With those first few weeks, how did you organise your time? Because I think going from an employed role where you're in the office, you've got set hours that you work in, when you're in the office, when your appointments are, everything's kind of planned out or you've got a structure to your day, to going into actually having to create your own structure, especially like you said, you haven't got any leads or you haven't got any properties that you're working with right now. So how did you organise and structure your days, day to day, to make sure that you were really productive and make sure you're going out there still keeping yourself busy? Yeah, I mean, my kind of personality trait anyway is to be quite organised and structured to a degree anyway. So it was more just kind of, I'm very much like handwritten list, cross things off, things like that. So I think even towards the end of the onboarding week, start to get a few ideas of different things to do. So it was more just in a morning, everyone, most of the week, everyone kind of goes out of the house anyway. So with them, having my office here at home house is empty I can then just kind of crack on with it but it was more just kind of doing things that I'd done previously anyway in terms of business generation um door-knocking different plans uh about kind of lead gen um on the social media aspect as well which again conversations we have had over time um hasn't always been my strongest point um but yeah it's just kind of trying to adjust to that and find the new norm that well works well and it did take a few weeks um there'll be times where kind of I'd write a list in the morning and come the end of the day you know what has happened today and but yeah yeah where's where's the day gone but this is one of the reasons why when I said to jack the other day like let's get ben done on I knew you'd be really open and real and raw about it because like it takes a a bold person to kind of go do you know what am I wasted a bit of time initially and and I was looking at my list and going what have I done but the thing I really rate and respect about you is you kind of don't then make excuses it's just a case of look yeah actually do you know what I probably dropped the ball a little bit that day but I ain't gonna I'm not gonna repeat that two days on the spin or you and I would have a call or you might speak to jack whatever and you'll go right yeah actually I've got something there and the thing I love about doing sessions with you is that it's like we'll have a conversation and then for hours you're late you've implemented it's done it's like right on to the next thing what can we what can we build next and I love that so I want to go back a step um we've talked about the early stages of of launching as a self-employed agent I don't want this to make it I don't want to be weighted towards why did you join the avenue but there is a point to me asking the question of why the avenue because I think with the growth of the self-employed space a lot of agents that are looking to transition could potentially look at self-employed brokerages in the same way that homeowners can start to look at estate agents. And so rather than looking at them based on the value they get back, they potentially look at who's the cheapest entry to market, i.e. who's the cheapest fee and who's going to give you the highest value, right? So you, and I don't need to name names, but I remember you telling me you had explored a few options before we spoke. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than it being a sales pitch for the avenue, it's more understanding what was the decision making process for you and why the avenue? Yeah, I think when I was exploring the options, there was... three or four, including obviously you guys that I spoke to, all ranging, like you say, in terms of fee structures, setup costs, all of that. But I was then looking at it more knowing how I am. And like I said to you before, that adjustment of being in an office day to day to then being alone. Some of them that I looked at, I just didn't feel like there was... very much like with you guys where you've got that team element. So somewhere, obviously with the avenue, having the postcodes, not competing kind of against other agents within the same brand, which you do have with kind of other self-employed models. For me, it was more kind of collaborating still. Yes, you're self-employed, but you are still within a team and having that support network and that team around everyone was, Yes, you don't have that day-to-day office life, but there's people now even within the avenue where I've got that closer relationship with where I do have conversations a couple of times a week or I can pick up the phone and speak to either of you guys or any other agents. So yeah, it was more that kind of togetherness as part of it as well because I knew kind of when looking at the different models that I probably wouldn't fit well in a model where you are just solely by yourself. They kind of set you up with the basics and it's you go do what you want to do, do it your own way. However works best for you, you do it. I think for me, having that structure that you guys put in place, the agents follow, but then also having the team aspect to it as well. That was just something that resonated with me and I felt that was actually the most suitable fit for me. Cool. And it wasn't a sales pitch. Thank you. Yeah. Because the point of team is to give value. So it's more people understanding, looking at it, whether it's the avenue or not. To me, it's by the by. Like we were looking at something yesterday and it's very much the attitude within the avenue that is like ninety nine percent need not apply. Like, do you know what I mean? We're not about the masses. So I'm quite comfortable with the idea that you're not pitching us. It's very much to help those listening in think about what they should be looking for. And, you know, you said about your personality profile being a part of something bigger than yourself. for you is important and equally then having a network that you can collaborate with and lean on and chew ideas over with and all that sort of stuff then is far more valuable to you oh yeah absolutely um yeah like I say there will be other models out there that work better for other people like personality traits and things like that but for me yes like we said at the start I think it's early next year where it's ten years in the industry so again coming up to ten years in the industry but I still wanted that kind of support or kind of more support network there that team behind it um as well so Yeah, I think that was kind of one of the biggest things for me was just having that extra. I think you hit the nail on the head with, you know, there's a lot of different brokerages out there and not everyone is the right fit for each brokerage. There's going to be different models that are more suitable for other individuals. And I think you've alluded to it, going out there, doing your research and making sure that you pick a business that is the right fit for you and you can see yourself being there long term, which is interesting. Yeah. I mean, coming on to, I suppose, moving back into your local business and how that's been going and performing over recent months, what would you say is one of the most effective or what have you found to have been real effective lead generational strategies that have worked really well for you to start getting yourself some opportunities and starting to grow your business and speak to a lot of homeowners or people that are looking at moving? Yeah, I think at the very start... was more door knocking, which I know is a bit of a controversial, but some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people think you should do it. Some people think you shouldn't. But yeah, for me, it was something which I have done in the past. So I had a bit of experience with it and, With then discussing it with you guys, I had kind of a slightly different approach to it to kind of maybe what I'd done previously, which I then actually found worked well. But that in the early days kind of worked well for me in a sense of, getting a few properties on the market, then show off the marketing that we do on homes so that when I'm then sitting in the living rooms with other people, I've then at least got properties that I can show off, which, yeah, it's great when you've got other agents under the avenue and you can show off other homes that they've got, but then when it's your own stuff... I think it has that bit more empowerment. I'd say, so that was kind of probably, I'd say, the first two to three months that worked really well. But then from then on, a lot of it has been social media, kind of recommendations in local groups, various different posts in groups. But yeah, kind of social media has been a big one for me, which again, like I say, I'm still not any sort of consistent person consistently posting um there's a big improvement for me to make on that social media side of things anyway um but yeah that's something which more recently I've seen an improvement I love that as well the fact that you want to keep growing and improving and yeah improving what you're doing coming back to the the door knocking strategy uh strategies what advice would you give to anyone that is nervous around going out there and knocking their first door or um going out there and door knocking in general just going out with a mindset of trying to help that person. And I mean, I've had some awful experiences in the past with it. Uh, we do take to heart and it's just learned just not to take it to heart. Um, yeah, ultimately I had the mindset of it, of if they turn around and say, look, don't know what you're doing here, shut the door on my face, I'm happy with what I'm doing, don't know why you're doing it, I turn around and then I think, well, look, that's not a person I want to work with, that's not the right client for me, I went with a strategy of, look, how are you getting on, are you looking to move locally, I'm, recently set up my business trying to build kind of my contact base in the area if you're looking to buy locally be good to get some details of what you are looking for so I can then keep you in the loop of anything else and I think that initial kind of conversation being trying to help them kind of almost kind of breaks that barrier down. And it also gave me a different light of when people doorknocked on my house, not agents, but like just through the... So I had a window cleaner the other day, opened the door and there's been the odd time I've shut the door and I've been a bit harsh on him. Like... How would I feel if that was me? But I think it's kind of how you approach it to each person. I think if you try and help them before you ask them for anything, someone's a lot more going to be a lot more kind of, yeah, respective of it and probably open more to a conversation. It's interesting, isn't it, where you say how you react to people knocking on your door. I'm the same as you now. If someone knocks on the door, the first thing that goes through my head is like, do you know what fair play to you? You're getting out there. I had it the other day, a neighbour a few doors down, they're having their roof replaced on their house. And one of the lads, only young lad, came round and he's like, just wanted to knock on, we're doing your neighbour's roof, just wondered whether or not it might be something that you're considering doing. And the first thing I said was, fair play to you. That's literally fair play. He doesn't even own the business. He works for the guy. And he's like, I just wanted to pop by. We're obviously just down the way anyway. And I really rate it. I really respect it. Because I'm like, do you know, there are so few people that will go out of their own way and step outside their comfort zone. Because it must have been like a bit of a thing for him. He's like, oh, should I? Shouldn't I? Sod it. Fortune favors the brave. Can't help to ask the question. My neighbor's having it done. We're not. Probably should. But the point being is, is that if they hadn't knocked on, that conversation wouldn't have started and they wouldn't be building their business. I think credit to it for those people that are the haters. Cool. That's fine. If it's not for you, it's not for you. But it does work. On that note, coming up to ten years in the industry, all of it traditional based before now. Yeah. How am I to position this question? Would you say that you've learned a lot because you've obviously been partnered with the Avenue now for nine months? So would you say in that nine month period, you've learned a lot? You've learned more than you had in the previous nine years, less than you've had to pivot about yourself? Bear in mind, we did the dis profile and everything else. Have you learned anything about yourself? Have you learned anything more about a state agency and how to do things in a certain way? And by the way, it's not a loaded question. If you say no, no, no. Cool. And equally then about building and growing a business. Where are your learns? Just saying no, Ben. Just for the fun of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, nothing. Yeah. No, it's across the board, really. So I learn a lot about myself. What have you learned about yourself, Ben? Now you're asking me. Just more probably... more resilient than what I thought I was. And yeah, kind of, I've always been someone who's probably had a lot of self doubt and I've then actually thought, you know what, you probably do better than what you give yourself kind of credit for at times and things like that. So just more kind of recognition on that side of it. But yeah, kind of on that side about myself is kind of just being more resilient to things. um within the industry yes there's been a fair a fair amount I've learned since being with the avenue um just in a sense of I'd probably say more on the people side of things and kind of it is more about the people yes it's a property transaction but it's and I've always kind of had it on that personal side of things and kind of getting to know people the families behind it all of that but kind of then trying to relay that within the valuation of how we market it to kind of it just being, look, here's what your property is worth. this is what we do, X, Y, Z, here's our fee. It's kind of more kind of how you approach that kind of appraisal conversation, the marketing behind it, why you do certain things, not just being saying, look, this is what we do. It's kind of going into why different strategies, how you implement things differently as well. So there's been a lot kind of more, which I'd say is more kind of the language side of things as well and the psychology side of things. kind of when you're discussing various bits as well so yeah there's definitely been a lot learned kind of across the board on that all of that really do you think do you think on that as well the the fact that you've been able to I suppose connect better we connect with those clients understand them more understand their backgrounds what they're looking to do Do you think that's helped because of the volume? Because look, you're an amazing agent and looking at the fees that you've been able to charge and secure with some of the listings we mentioned earlier, two of those listings were the equivalent to a basic salary on the high street. So do you think you've been able to do that? Because I mean, I know one of those listings as well was on with another agent struggling to sell before. So a massive result for the client as well. I think they were. Both of them. Both of them, yeah. Sorry, I do apologise. Both of them being on with other agents. So, no, you've obviously helped those clients as well, get them those results. But do you think you've been able to do that because of the, I suppose, lower volume compared to what you're used to working with a high street? Has that had an impact? Yeah, definitely. I think it's then been able to kind of really get into the nitty gritty of those people's circumstances, why they're moving. reasons behind it all uh but then be able to give them that kind of more personal service to things as well and kind of really just kind of sit down and be like look this is the way forward essentially um especially with one of them um I remember kind of even after we had the marketing shoot when I got everything back um I went over and sat down with her and she wanted to be kind of involved in it all of it and kind of we sat down there me and michelle and she was going through all the photos and yeah I initially Yeah, the one where we went together. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when we got all the photos and everything back from the photographer, yeah, just kind of went back out, sat in the living room with her and we kind of went through all the photos and kind of, which, yeah, you wouldn't do that with everyone. Yeah. But with her, yeah, it was one where kind of I think because of past experience as well, I think she just wants that bit more kind of handheld involvement. And I think even though she had been on the market for just over a year in the end with the previous agent, she still felt kind of quite drawn to going back on the market and kind of starting it afresh. So, yeah, kind of it definitely allows you kind of not having the volume that you're used to having. being able to actually then provide more of that service. But I think it's also seeing the value in yourself. That's been another thing I'd say that's learned over the last eight, nine months is seeing the real value in yourself. And I was saying to you a few weeks ago, James, that now I'm at a point where there have been times, especially towards the start of the business, where you're more thinking what's the fees here? I don't want to lose it. Where do I go in? Whereas I've now got comfortable at a point of if they say they've gone elsewhere and it's purely based on what's your fees, I'm comfortable with giving them the fee. And if they say, look, that's far too high and they're not willing to listen or anything like that, I'll say that's fine. I'm willing to now kind of walk away from stuff if it's not going to be the right fit for me and the brand. So, yeah, that's kind of another thing in a sense of not dealing on that high volume side of things where you can then kind of truly value what you do, why you do it and what that value is for a customer as well. What a transformation in mindset, because I think one of the big conversations, so this episode is being recorded the first week of November, probably will go out second week, maybe third week of November. So we're in the process of bringing two new agents in this week into the business. And it's interesting, every single onboard that I take part in, the fee conversation comes up. And quite a lengthy conversation, you know, do you really do the agents at the Avenue really secure those fees? Are customers really prepared to pay upfront marketing fees and a percentage that's higher than the norm? Is that really true? And I'm like, every time I have to open up Lifecycle, show them the fees in the system and which is cool which is cool because it's it's it is unbelievable it's a little bit like sharing some of the data that gets shared on say linkedin or whatever or you know when we're talking to prospective partners around you know the average income of someone or what the lower level is and what the extreme higher level is and all this sort of stuff it's like they feel like monopoly numbers but you are testament to that right you are working in the same marketplace that you were in when you were on the high street so you haven't moved marketplaces but have your fees risen yeah Are you, did you used to charge an upfront marketing fee? No. Do you now? Yeah. What's changed? Mindset to it. But I think also you then start to get the clients who understand the value in it. And I think that's the key thing. It's been more kind of learning, demonstrating value to people. And people are, of I mean when you say about the fees obviously I offered two sets of fees they've got an option where they don't have to pay up for them um but it's purely down to each seller on their own terms of which way they want to go But yeah, I think kind of demonstrating the value to them and that's kind of then also attracted the kind of properties that you then want to be working alongside as well and the clients as well because they see the value in what you're doing and why you're charging those fees and the output they get. I mean, I was sat in the kitchen with someone earlier and I've got one on the market around the corner. He said, look, I had another agent out earlier. We're looking at moving earlier in the year. seeing what you've done with the one round the corner and it's just completely above and beyond what some of the traditional ones do. And we don't want to kind of go down that route now. And yeah, that's something where again, as soon as someone's coming to you because they've seen your marketing on others, when you kind of go into that deeper, having more of a chat with them about why you're doing what you can do and kind of getting them envisioning how you can put that onto their home. Yeah, absolutely. As long as you can demonstrate that value. Yeah, it's been a great turnaround. How exciting, though, and how nice is that feeling when you get clients where they're like, almost, they may as well be saying, how do I sell myself to you? Yeah. Where that client's like, I've seen what you've done. I see how good it is. That's what we want. That feeling of satisfaction where it's like, do you know, all of the hard work I've done over the last nine months to build to this point, all the heavy lifting, all of the commitment, all of the challenges I would have had where I was like, am I doing the right thing? Am I even good enough? Can I make this work in the early days? Then it transitions from that mindset into, huh, actually, maybe I am a bit good at this. And maybe if I just follow the process, it does work. And then it's like, then you're sitting in kitchens and living rooms with people where they're going, seeing what you've done. I absolutely love it. And that's what we want. We don't want that traditional mainstream stuff, my sell and cheat mentality. We want what you do. That's a nice feeling, right? Yeah, we want that because it costs us. Yeah, absolutely. But then they also take on board everything else that you then say. And if you then say, well, look, really, if you want my advice, changing X, Y, Z, or move some of these, when we do the shoot, move all this out the way and all of that, they, they're the people who then actually listen to what kind of how's best to do it. Cause they've seen what you've done on another property. It's like, how do I have my house looking like that? Um, so then when you're saying, look, I think you need to do X, Y, Z before, um, yeah and then like great that's fine we'll get that done and yeah so yeah it's such a great feeling when you're sat there and they're saying oh yeah I've seen what you've done on this other one and we had someone else six months ago coming out but then we had to delay things and whatever but yeah we've now kind of complete done a U-turn on that decision and yeah we want to work with you it's yeah it's a great feeling love that we've seen how hard you've worked on some of those listings and the investment into the market in the quality of what you produce and getting the property ready and completely changing it from what it looked like when it was on the market with other agents they're working really hard to generate leads and opportunities and have a strategy behind um the appointments and how those are conducted and I know there's a couple where you've got some really strong offers agreed on those as well um significantly higher than what these sellers were expecting So I'm guessing you've now built some case studies, which I'm sure those can help you win over the business. But in the early stages, those first couple of listings, what was it that helped you get those over the line? What was it that helped you deliver that value? What was the difference in making sure you could secure that business for those first few listings? Those first few listings, they were more ones where it was kind of, I already had a bit of a relationship with the people. So whether it be, um, Kenzie road, for example, um, or then a couple of properties, um, kind of apartments, um, that I've been working on, um, where they're kind of either family friends or recommendation from a family friend where it was kind of using them to kind of, even though, yes, they're kind of one or two bed apartments still going to town on the marketing to then be able to use that to then show, um, what you could then do on on other houses as well um but yeah like you say there's that investment side to it initially and I think I was chatting to james a couple of months ago about it in a sense that kind of the business from what I projected being at this point I'm delighted it's kind of skyrocketed from where I thought it would be but then there has been that point of the financial side of things where yeah, I've put more profits on the market than I expected to have done by this point. But then I've shelled out a lot more marketing shoots than I expected to have done. So it's always been that cash flow element side as well and trying to juggle all of that, which is... Less than it occurs. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely so. But yeah, I think kind of getting those first year case studies to then be able to show off to people. And that's where, again, where social media has massively come into it with recommendations and things like that is the amount of even buyers that I've been speaking to when they've kind of come and look at a house and they just say, wow, it's kind of what you've done on the marketing is completely above and beyond what we've seen with any other properties or when we're doing the viewings and I'm there chatting to them and kind of they're asking you about things and you just talk to them about it. It just, some buyers can't even believe that that's what we're doing compared to like you say, your high street agents and the difference it does. I feel like a broken record saying this at the moment, but I just so wholeheartedly believe it. And it's the phrase, how you do one thing is how you do everything. So the perception you create is everybody else's reality. So when you're presenting properties with such beautiful marketing, with such attention to detail, with cinematic presenter-led videos that are like five, six minutes in length, when you're doing the social media ad campaigns, when you're doing all of these things, The perception that gives to the public is that these guys do something very different. That really is then their interpretation. I genuinely feel every appointment I go to, if they've consumed any of our content on any platform, I'm going into that appointment safe in the knowledge that no one else does it the way we do it. And so I already have. And this is about a confidence thing. I already have a confidence that I'm probably a little bit ahead of the others because their interpretation is these guys are a bit different. All I've got to do is go in and essentially fill in the gaps around the strategic approach we take. Because you can't be all, what is it, all skirt and no knickers is the phrase, you know, forgive anyone listening in. But you can't, you can't like, and what that, you know, for those, you know, that aren't probably as old as me and don't understand the phrase, that's very much about looking fantastic on the outside. The marketing looks absolutely bells and whistles, but there's actually no substance there. underneath the surface it's just a very flouncy looking marketing piece so then to be able to go in and deliver on the strategy that we deliver the the negotiation process that we go through with clients um then all of a sudden it's like already ahead now it's like okay cool this this is going nowhere but on the market with us um and so I do genuinely believe in that phrase, how you do one thing is how you do everything. So if you show up and your marketing is so on point, people are going to then benchmark you. I also think that then influences fees because people look at it and go, these guys aren't going to be cheap. So if they're calling you out and they're already in a headspace where they know you're not going to be cheap, then the fee then becomes less of an issue as well. It's like a win-win-win, right? Yeah, absolutely. here's my question. I've got a couple of more questions for you. I'm sorry, Jack, I feel like I've hijacked a little bit, but Ben's journey is like a really exciting one because of, because of the backstory, because of the risks you've taken and the young family piece. And we're in end of twenty twenty four. Yeah. The year is done from a business point of view. So what we exchange complete on now, you know, what we sell now is going to be next year, et cetera. What do you envisage twenty twenty five looking like for you and your business? The way it's going, just working on kind of, like we were discussing the other week, just kind of more focusing on the nicer, higher end, like the properties that kind of go in keeping with the marketing that we do. But even then to a point of doubling down more on the social media side, which, like I said, I've touched on before at the minute, it's not my strong point, getting more consistent with that side of it. But I'm looking at it in a sense of excitement in terms of where my business can go to next year and what that kind of earning potential could be um compared to kind of what it has been this year in previous years as well um and yeah there's different things there where I'm just excited by it all really um yeah kind of the possibilities and yeah kind of like you say expanding young family next year as well so there's going to be challenges on that side to it but yeah it's it's then kind of going alongside the business and growing that as well as yeah kind of it's exciting to kind of where that can go to nice nice I've got one final question I don't know if jack's got any I've got one final one If someone was to contact you right now that was planning on becoming a self-employed estate agent and you were to give them one piece of advice, what would it be? Consistency. across the board really, whether that be with kind of plans that you've got in terms of like lead gen strategies or routine, just across the boards on all the different aspects within the business. I think you've just got to be consistent because if you're not consistent, could easily try doing something but not do enough of it consistently enough to get the proper results uh so I think it's kind of consistency and measuring what you do to kind of really look at what does work well and what doesn't um and again that's something which has kind of come from conversations we've had with kind of measuring the output of How many doors have you knocked or how many of the letters have been sent and kind of what the ongoing is from the results from each of them. But I think you've got to do it consistently. And like I say, that's whether it be a morning routine, different lead gen strategies. If you're not consistent with it, I don't think it's something which... You can't just kind of go up and down with everything because, yeah, it just won't work because you've got the highs and lows of the business as it is, let alone. I think if you've got consistency to it over time, it will then kind of work out. But yeah, if you just keep chasing the highs and lows on that, it's just I don't think it's going to work. I really like the measuring, Pete. I suppose completely right. We've got to do things enough times to be able to have something to measure, haven't you? So as long as you can do it consistently for a long period of time, then review it, then measure, then see where you can adapt and change. I think this has been a great, great episode. There's so much that we've gone through that I think has been absolute gold. I suppose the mindset piece, which I think has been really helped by the strategies and the frameworks that you've been able to put in place and the processes that you've built and the structure that you've built within your business. um I love the fact that you keep mentioning social media wanting to do more with it I love what you're doing on social media so the fact that you want to keep growing and expanding on that is amazing and continuing to build your personal brand I think the confidence that you've got you I can just tell the way that you speak and the way that you talk about your interaction with clients the confidence that you got is incredible um and one of the things I think is really important for people to remember is something you mentioned earlier is utilizing your network because those first few listings sounded like they came from the network around you um But the big thing I think is you've put yourself under immense pressure on a number of occasions. One, launching the business, but also investing into the market to make sure you have to get those listings sold because you've invested so heavily into it. So would you agree that putting yourself under pressure is going to help you have more success within your business? And do you think that pressure has really helped you drive yourself on and give you that determination to keep going? Yeah, absolutely. I think... most people that know me, I'm quite a level person. So if I get annoyed by something, I don't lose my head and lose it. But I'm always kind of quite calm anyway. So I think having that pressure kind of makes you need to kind of consistently do these things, especially with how I am, because Without that pressure, I'd not be too laid back, but you could fall into that trap quite easily if you then don't have that pressure to it. I'd massively say that the pressure's been the big thing for me. It's then how you, as things progress and build, it's how you keep that pressure there to then want to push it forward. Again, as you move on to the next step of things where you maybe take the financial pressure away of kind of the day-to-day but it's then how do you build on top and kind of keep progressing forward and yeah extra pressures will come because if things kind of keep being successful and building you'll probably add to kind of that outgoing side of things as well so yeah earning that having that earning potential to kind of then enjoy it at the same time the pressure makes diamonds I think in your case ben the pressure has built you a healthy soul pipeline yeah Love that. I must admit, yeah, the pressure definitely lit a fire under you, Ben, that's for damn sure. I think Jack's synopsis before he asked the question was like so perfect for this episode. Ben, you've shared so much value. It's been wicked. If anybody wants to connect with you online, on social media, see some of the amazing stuff that you're doing, even though you'd want to do more, how can they connect with you? LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, kind of across social media channels. Feel free if someone then wanted to kind of message me or kind of get into more about self-employed model. All my contact details then across social media platforms. So if they wanted to text, call me, email, anything like that. Yeah. Anyone was feel free to kind of follow me on socials or then kind of get in touch if they wanted to kind of discuss anything on the self-employed model side of things. If it's Instagram and Facebook, is it at Ben Dunn the Avenue? Yeah, Instagram, I think Ben Dunn underscore The Avenue. And yeah, I think Facebook's the same. So yeah, at Ben Dunn The Avenue. Thanks so much for joining us, mate. It's been absolutely wicked. Thank you very much for having me on. Thank you, mate.