Part 2- The Idaho Follow Up Episode

Today we drop part II of our "what happened at the Idaho town hall?" episode where we answer your questions and respond to your comments

0:00-2:00 Ashley's Idaho story

3:00-4:00 Introduction to today's episode and Emily's thoughts

4:00 What is one of Emily's biggest pet peeves

4:30 Idaho murder documentary

7:00 Fight/flight/freeze and that is "just Northern Idaho"

10:00 Hate comments

13:00 "If you just follow the rules"

14:00 A personal story from the event

17:00 The power of fear

20:00 Bystander effect

20:30 Portland True crime case

22:00 Democrats and Republicans current day

27:00 White women

28:00 Schindlers list

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Alley-American-Pilots-Himalayas/dp/0811772624

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack

https://www.cbsnews.com/tag/bryan-kohberger/

https://www.thecreepybookclub.com/product-page/a-killing-cold-by-kate-alice-marshall

https://apnews.com/article/idaho-protest-woman-removed-town-hall-b4348df006fe83723f95769a05007098

Transcript

Idaho Follow Up

 Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is books with your besties. You're being recorded. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Okay. Okay. So what were you going to tell me? Okay, so funny that we're doing a second part of the Idaho episode since I was in Boise. We were at the airport. Ben and I are sitting like this facing one another, and we're in this kind of, like, general area. And there's a bar to the left of us, this group of five men, I'd say late 30s, maybe early 40s, roll in and sit at the bar. So they're all up there having drinks, and it looks like Boise is maybe a place where people come for like a weekend away, maybe because there were lots of groups of people. So the men go up to the bar and they're sitting and, you know, I love people watching. It's like my favorite hobby ever. So they're sitting facing the bar. And no less than 15 to 18 minutes later, this group of five girls come up the escalators. They walk by us, they hook a U-turn to go into the bar space, and I see one of the girls lock eyes with one of the guys at the bar because he needed to turn around to see her because they were facing the opposite direction. He turns around, they make eye contact, and this girl's face goes white as a sheet and she goes, oh, funny seeing you guys here. The men all turn around. The five girls look at all the men. And it became crystal clear to Ben and I that whatever they got into the night before, they never intended on ever seeing one another again. And here they were in an airport bar, and I quickly started scanning. I was like, do I see wedding rings? They looked all about the same age, but Ben scooted over one seat and I was like, no, scoot closer. I want to know what happened. Did you ever hear anything else? No. I mean, but you could just tell from the body language, the lack of conversation that whatever happened between these ten men and women, they never thought they were going to see one another again. And they ended up at the Boise airport all together. So if that was any of you, let us know in the comments. All right. Let's get into it. Hi besties, it's Ashley and Emily. We are back with a follow up episode, and who knows what else we will talk about from last week's episode about what happened at the town hall in Idaho. I am how are you? I am fine, how are you? I'm okay. I'm excited to talk about this and some of the feedback and questions and comments we got after the episode. Perfect. Let's do it. Let's do it. Thank you to you for educating and empowering all of us. I got so many messages from people basically saying how lucky I am to have your knowledge in my everyday life, but that you brought it to them because a lot of women admitted that they initially blame the other women and did not take one second to think about how did this start? How did the bigger patriarchal system allow this to happen? And you helped that conversation start. But I do think, you know, that's it can be helpful to just hear different perspectives. And I do think that. For whatever reason, just based on maybe my experience and time in that in the system of education, I had a different perspective than I think a lot of people did. And I still continued to see, like you posted on your personal page about the incident, but it wasn't really apparent straight up, like where you could listen to our episode. And so I think a lot of people thought we were just like, you were just having a discussion on there. So there weren't people on there who were like, I listen to the episode, here's feedback, but there was a ton of just comments of like, everyone should have helped. Yeah. And if everyone just would have helped this would it would have prevented this situation. So it was just more of the same sort of I can't believe that people didn't help her a lot of the same comments and a lot of the same initial what we talked about that people really firmly believe if I had been there, I would have stepped in totally, which is fun to believe, but you wouldn't have. That is just one of my biggest, biggest pet peeves. And I think it's come up here, I don't know, ten times on this podcast that I can't stand when people think they know how they would behave in a situation, because we're wrong most of the time, and we know we have evidence from research that our perspective thinking is wrong. But also, I just think it's really silly to think that we would know exactly how we would react in these incredibly rare circumstances. Can I just tell you that I watched a, like, older documentary on the Idaho murders, the University of Idaho, for people who were murdered, and by Brian Burger. And that case really haunts me. Just the life of these four college students, probably, you know, working with college students, it has really affected me. Obviously, it's just incredibly brutal, horribly tragic. But I watched the documentary and. Now on social media. The case records Bryan Berger have been of his case have been released publicly. Some of the details and some of that includes the text messages with those two surviving roommates. And it just absolutely sickens me how much people are certain the way if they had been one of those roommates, they would have behaved in that situation. And so that makes these roommates wrong, suspicious, anything other than no. They were the only two people in the world who have experienced this. And this kind of crime is so outrageously rare, you don't actually find anyone else who can find the exact same situation and does know how they reacted. So just be thankful you weren't there and feel sorry for these poor women who were traumatized, being left survived, and the families and friends of all these victims. And that's it, you know, leave it there. But to say I would have done this, I would have called them number one. I would have ran and helped, and then they would have lived as the stupidest narrative. That's a question that someone asks in our question box. They they wanted you. This is just going to be you teaching us all the things because people were like, we just need to ask Emily questions about this stuff. So someone said, is there an element in these situations of fight, flight or freeze? Of course, I'll just say your autonomic nervous system is has arousal during these situations, right? So we have physiological arousal that we can identify like rapid heart rate. We sweat a little bit more right. So we can kind of. Feel these things are. Digestion slows, and the way that we react is not necessarily something that we choose in the moment, but is something that our body, our mind reacts to that physiological feeling in some way, and it happens very quickly. Right. And we run or we fight back or we might freeze, and we actually have a hard time controlling which one we are likely to do. We can have pre-planned ideas of what we can do, but in those moments they come out of nowhere. You're not expecting them, and you get that immediate arousal. One of those happens right away, not a physical response or a physical example. But for me, this made me think about when someone said something inflammatory or even hurtful towards you and you don't say something back, and 24 hours later you're like, oh, this is what I should have said. And had you been told this scenario in advance, you'd be like, well, this is what I would say. But in the moment you don't say it right. We don't know. And we really like to think that we are these super Uber logical creatures that can just act on a whim and a dime exactly the right way. But I don't think anybody out there has always acted quite how they wish they had, or quite the way we would like to think that we would. One comment that came up consistently from people who actually live in Idaho, and I found this to be interesting, and I'll tell you why was, well, that's northern Idaho. That's northern. That's northern Idaho. That's kind of just what that's kind of just what happens there, you know, like just don't go to that part of the state. This kind of behavior is to be expected. And it made me think about M when we were in an Uber ride and our driver asked about Antifa in Portland. I think it's really dangerous to just write off cities or sections of cities because of these preconceived notions about what they are like. Right? And we might know culturally that a place is more conservative or less conservative, or has a higher level of white supremacists. For example, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, used to be the head of the KKK. So, I mean, I understand that we can see cultural sort of differences in rural and urban areas. But yeah, to holistically say our Uber driver saying, Has Antifa left Portland yet? As if Portland is controlled by Antifa. I mean, I don't live in Portland, but we drove all over Portland. I didn't see any Antifa. I think there is something to recognize about that. Like, this is not a place that you are going to find a friendly community. And I would think if anything, if you're going to be saying, oh, that's northern Idaho, that's what northern Idaho is like, then you should definitely not also be saying out the other side of your mouth, why didn't anyone help her? Absolutely. Yep. And be even more impressed and proud of the people who did show up there. If they knew that that was going to potentially be the atmosphere, right? Like the bravery of the people who did show up, knowing that most of the people there were probably not going to agree with what they said. Right? A comment we had from someone with the handle SG moon, 34, was I think that this was a valuable and necessary evil. We take our right for freedom of speech for granted. In today's environment. We learn from this experience. Moving forward, we will realize that this recording is very important. Standing with her would have been vitally important. Her idea was, if you're in this situation again, would there be a way for people to surround her and lock arms as as a group of men or women? So I just thought we didn't talk a lot about the freedom of speech and the importance of this video to share that. We did have a couple hate comments. Would you like a moment of levity so I can read some of those to you? Sure. Okay. One from her horses was nope. The Democrats think they can disrupt and ride and do whatever they want. Shut up lady, get out. So I was friendly. That was that was a friendly comment. Let's send her a thank you note. And and then someone else on TikTok stormed the truth. 201 said, oh, good. Please keep telling people that that being about the situation in Idaho, we don't want your kind here. Those who hate kids and babies. Idaho isn't a safe place for you guys. We're going to defend our state from people like you. Oh, wow. So is that a threat? I'm so glad it wasn't. It seems like it. So don't visit either, Idaho. Also, we who hate kids and babies because we're the ones that want to strip medicaid from them, their health care right from them and their Snap benefits and free lunches for kids. But I guess unborn fetuses can be protected. Her mini Bassan Bassan brought up what you talked about on the podcast, and I don't know if this if this listener listened to it or said this first, but they said you are better off if there are only 1 or 2 people in a crowd. The assumption is that someone else is going to do something, which is exactly what you talked about, right? With, oh yeah, you're definitely better off with 1 or 2 people. That's completely correct. Yeah. Did you see the comment we got from someone who said when she was on a run, she saw a swastika had been graffitied on the sidewalk and she's like, because I listened. Instead of assuming someone else had called it in, I stopped. I took a picture and I called the police. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, it is great. One of the other things people were hoping you could talk about, I'm going to put you on the spot because I can't is there was this knee jerk reaction from people who appear to be on the right or identify as more Trump supporters on the right to say. If she would have just followed the rules, nothing would have happened if she would have just followed the rules of decorum and just the way that we are willing to blame the victim and and say, well, if you just followed the rules of the world, nobody would get hurt. Which is the same thing in so many cases of violence against people of color. If they just followed the rules, this wouldn't happen. Right. Here's the problem with that. I understand where the argument comes from, that they're like, she was being super disruptive. She should have stopped shouting over people. She was going to be removed because of that. And if she hadn't done that, there wouldn't be these consequences. Here's the problem. What do you think an appropriate consequence is for her not following the rules of decorum? Because I think if you're willing to say that an appropriate consequence is for her to be violently, physically grabbed by strange men, restrained, handcuffed or zip tied or whatever, and dragged out of the room, I think you should be really careful what you wish for. I think you should be really careful about where that turns on you. And if you look at the quote unquote rules, what rules are you talking about and what it just feels like such an easy way to take no accountability for what happened, not even question what happened, and just be like, well, if you just did what you were told, this wouldn't have happened. Yeah. I don't understand how people can look at it and think that it's okay in any capacity. I think no matter what you think of her behavior, her behavior was words and a voice. They could have called the police and they could have had sheriff deputies come if they really needed something taken care of. But to have strangers, just these random men who wouldn't identify themselves, pin her on the ground and stretch her around. I mean, it was aggressive. Can I share a story that was sent to us through direct messages? And I'm going to keep this person anonymous just for her safety. Okay, so we got a message from someone who follows us on Instagram who has a friend who was actually at at the town hall. She didn't know she was there, but one day she picked up a newspaper and saw her friend in in the main image that we all saw. So she saw her friend and reached out to her and was like, oh my gosh, you you were there. And she was really struggling with the same thing. We were that. Why didn't anybody do anything? But she, this woman, her friend. Said that people there did stand up. People were yelling, grabbing, screaming at the security guards to make it stop. And then this woman, I have goosebumps. This woman followed her and waited with her until she was released to go home. So a woman did go with her, and I don't know if that means waited until she was safely out of the building, but she's like, I just want to represent the women in this community that we didn't see on the news who were yelling, trying to get security guards and who literally went with Theresa until they knew she was safe before going home. I love that there's, of course, more to the story than you're going to see in some clip. And Steve even said that when he listened to it, my husband, he said, I'd love to see more context around all the sides. Like everything. I just want to say the whole thing. I'm not surprised that there was more. I'm really heartened to hear that there was more action. But also I did see that in the video. It was in the video, the yelling and the voices you can hear that are supporting her in the video. But people are still so fast to say, why didn't you help her? Because you didn't stop it. Do you actually think if you decide to stand up and help, that you're invincible and it's going to be successful and you may not fail, their voices didn't win anyway, resistance does not mean immediate success, so any resistance that was shown there should be valued for the resistance that happened and should not be discredited because it resulted in an outcome in the immediate sense that we didn't like. I in my post, should have done a better job directing people to the episode because an on TikTok. I agree with you that people I kept replying to people especially on TikTok, like have you listened? Have you listened because the consistent feedback was, yeah, why didn't she do anything? And I'm like, that's why you have to go listen, you have to hear Emily talk with us about how people did help, and that help doesn't have to look like what you think it's going to look like and why, as women, we're not going to put ourselves in physical danger. Right. And I'm not the only I'm not the only perspective. Right. So, like, if that's the first time you've heard the perspective that I had after listening to our episode, it may not change your mind. You may still think that people should have done more. I understand that, but I still think there should be some soul searching there about really considering in a moment where there are 4 or 5 violent men who are attacking a woman. Are you sure you're good with jumping in? Are you sure and ready for the consequences of that? Because I know myself. And as much as I want to get involved in those situations and preach that we should get involved in those situations, I also know that I have hesitated out of fear, especially in a state also where, you know there are people who are armed. We were just in Idaho and a soccer ball went into yards. And my son was like, should I climb over the fence and get it? And another dad was like, you do not trespass on property here. Like you don't do that in this state here where people are armed and allowed to. Not that you should go in anybody's yard, but you do have to think about those situations that probably a lot of the people here have firearms. And if you give them a reason to use them. Yeah, yeah. I just don't think sometimes it's it's worth it. I don't know, maybe I'm just feeling defeated too by these things will continue happening. You know, women aren't empowered in the United States. It's laughable. Maybe things will get worse. Maybe they won't. But we have to stop attacking each other in the interim. In the meantime, the only and this is not going to seem the same at all. But I've really been reflecting on this because I think we really are so confident in what we would do. And the only experience I've had where I think I knew how I would react, and then the way I reacted would be when my mom called to say my dad had passed away. You think you know what you're going to do in those situations? And I'm not saying that that's the same as being in this like, riot type scenario, but I do think it's the same. And you have these ideas of how you're going to react. And then when it happens, you react so differently because your body literally takes over. And it's just hard to think. It's just hard to think about that. You just don't know what you're going to do in, in any of those situations until it happens. And then you're like, whoa, that was different. We try to imagine those things, we try to prepare ourselves, but it's like anything in life, every single parent will tell you that you can't be prepared for having a baby. Every person tells you you can't be prepared for what a loss feels like. Really, you can't prepare for the things that life hands you, that you haven't experienced. You just cannot. You can. Try. You can do your best to wrap your brain around it, but until you're in it, you just don't know. I could be not wrong because I was reading about this, and I don't need you to to take all the time in the world to teach us about it. But I did do some reading on how to kind of be an active bystander, like what to do if you are in these scenarios and exactly like you're saying, none of them are like, get in the middle of it. That's not the advice at all. The advice is to ask things like distract, get help, use your device to to videotape like document. It's all these D things. And I'm like, nowhere in here does it say risk your own personal safety and escalate the situation. Totally do. Yeah. And I and I listen another case that haunts me, another true crime case that haunts me is the one that happened on the Max train 7 or 8 years ago. And it was a man named, I think Jeremy Christian or something like that was his name. And he killed two people, £0.03 and he really critically injured another. And it was all because they stood up for a young girl who he was harassing about her race. They stood up to him and confronted him, and he very quickly stabbed them and killed them. And I'm not saying we shouldn't intervene, but I think those kinds of situations like, am I equipped to go up against a man who is acting erratic, unhinged, violent? Am I prepared for the consequences of that? And is it worth it? And the answer for me as a woman is no. And even for men, they may also feel like. Think about this, think about this. Men may have tried to help in that situation, but people were then like, okay, let's pivot and not be mad at the women in the room. Let's be mad at the men in the room. That didn't help. We should still be mad at the men who did this, and we should still be mad at the person up front who talked, calling her a little girl and condescending car the whole time, speaking over this whole situation. That's what we should be mad at. But let's be mad at the men in the room for not doing enough. Are we sure that they felt safe in their community? Absolutely. Publicly shaming and embarrassing men by standing up to them in this situation? They may have thought to themselves, once she's out, it will be fine. Like she's not going to get really hurt. She's not going to she's they're going to just take her outside. Like me. Intervening as a community member here in this small area pits me against maybe a group of people who are involved in things that we don't know anything about. I guess I'm just validating the likely fear of men and women in that room. Not. That we weren't there to experience, right? They also had perspectives. We didn't like what the people around them were saying, which apparently, according to some folks online, if you go and look, the comments very much are like this was justified. She deserved worse. One of the people in our comments said, you can hear on the audio someone on this, the aisle next to her saying, well, she's a Democrat. She deserves this and that. That type of inflammatory speech was what was more frequent in that area than anything supportive of her, which is sad times we live in with. I mean, I have my viewpoints and I'm liberal, but the hatred toward the other side of like the humans behind it is not serving us or helping us because there's no way we're going to come back from that. That's the problem is, I definitely have a hard time with being okay with the viewpoints that are out there, and I don't think I should have to accept and tolerate racism and discrimination and hatred for women. And. Hatred for LGBTQ folks. I don't think I should have to be okay with those values and be like, let's just hang out and be best friends anyway. But the like, general pitting of Republicans versus Democrats. I also don't think this is Republicans versus Democrats. I think this is MAGA versus everyone else. Uh, absolutely. 100%. And MAGA is not a majority. Trump may have been elected. It's 22% of our American population voted for Trump, 22%. And I think it is important as non MAGA that people do keep showing up to these types of town halls and that these blue dots in these red cities and red states do keep being really brave and showing up in ways that matter, because the second we stop showing up is the second we stop fighting. I also think it's okay just to empower. I think it's okay to sort of to bend your mind enough to go. Are there things that happen that regardless of party should have crossed a line should not happen? I think that's wise. And in our 24 years of friendship, I would say both of us have never just blindly followed what our quote unquote party does or stands for. We have spent a lot of time saying, we got this wrong, we got this wrong, we're doing this wrong. We need to be doing this better. And I'm not sure that that type of introspection and calling your party to the carpet happens with some of the MAGA folks, although on for at least you and I. It happens with us. It happens with us. Oh, I think it happens all the time with the Democrats, I think. I think Democrats are just such a weak party for a lot of reasons. And you and I talk about that all the time. And I think part, a big part of our foolishness is I think super extreme liberals are angry at less extreme liberals, wrong people to pick a fight with. Stop picking fights. Why are we infighting that weakens us so much? And you just don't hear that over there. You just don't hear that Trump supporters are enraged by non Trump like super fans that are conservative. They don't care. They're pissed off at the liberals. You said infighting, which made me think of this. And this is a harsh pivot and I have no answer to it. But this comment made me think, and I don't think it's not true. Somebody on her TikTok said, basically, white women don't support white women. And she talked about in with black women. She's like, I, I do think this situation would have looked different because from the day we are born, we are taught how to show up for one another, which means you do protect one another. And I did not disagree with what she said, but just the comment with no context. You just said white women do not support white women, which is more of the infighting. Oh, we absolutely do not. I think more of us are self-proclaimed guys girls than should ever be the case. How can you not be a girls girl? Why would you hate women? Right? That's what you are. And I think we are super quick and love to pull each other down, drag each other down. I think we have fragile egos and fragile self-esteem. And I'll tell you why. This is why I think it all stems from we have this fragile self-esteem. It's defensive. And so the best thing we can do is drag others down to make ourselves feel better and stand up. But it's because we're all clawing for like, second place. Because we will never, ever get to the top. Because we're women. Yep. That was essentially I watched I kind of went down a rabbit hole of TikTok about this after she made that comment, and a lot of it was about that and about how for white women, some of us aren't willing to have these hard conversations with other white women, like about the Democratic Party and how or like, okay, white female friend, you're a Maga supporter. Can we really have a white woman to white woman conversation about why that's not what's best for you? And here's why I see that it's not best for you. And instead we're taking this energy and putting it into other things instead of putting it into the white woman to white woman conversations we need to be having, I agree. Okay, can I bring up something about this that it's been making me think about, that we have actually history that we can call upon to see how things went in prior situations and what was revered and what was not right, what was hated and abhorred. And one thing I can tell you is that if you look at the Nazi movement and then the resistance to the Nazi movement, we do not see movies coming out and books coming out, and we do not laud the heroes of the Holocaust who stood up in that moment, punched a Nazi in the face, and then also got killed. We praise Oskar Schindler, which this is low hanging fruit, because most people have seen Schindler's List and understand the story of Oskar Schindler, who was a Nazi. And engaged with the Nazi Party, but saved thousands of Jewish people by calling them to work in his factory, where he didn't actually create anything. He did a quiet. He did a passive action that got no attention at the time and was not meaningful at the time, but became one of the most powerful things that somebody did during the Holocaust. So for us to sit here and have an expectation of some violent confrontation being the right outcome, we are. We are as humans, ignorant and uneducated in general, all of us. I saw a historian talking about how history basically repeats itself on an 80 to 100 year cycle every 80 to 100 years, somewhere in the world the same thing happens. Why do you think that is? What happens every 80 to 100 years? People die. Everybody who was alive at the time of the previous event is dead. My grandfather was 102 years old. He fought in World War two. He actually he didn't fight. He flew planes over Burma to deliver supplies. Is called the hump. Flying the hump. And my cousin Rory Laverty wrote a book called Aluminum Alley because. And it's called Aluminum Alley because so many planes crashed. It was just like littered with airplane parts along that area. And he received many honors and accolades. And he went to China as a hero and 15 years ago and was with other World War Two veterans, and he was 102 years old. So he was in his 20s when he flew for the Air Force for World War Two. And he was 102 years old, who's one of the last living World War II vets. And he died last year, and he was one of the last. There's no one left to tell us cautionary tales. Uh, well, and I was just going to say it is also why we are then allowed to rewrite history and decide what we want, what stories we want to tell, and why things right now are being taken down, removed because of where this particular administration wants us to go. Which is terrifying. On that note, maybe next week we'll go back to talking about books. Yes, let's. We should pick a book to talk about. We should pick a book to talk about for next week. Um, yeah, we'll pick one and then we can add that in. I can't wait because I have such a huge TBR pile right now, and I want to actually just blow through and read something. And it's sunny today, and I actually feel like I'm working. Obviously we're doing this and I have other work too, for my other job, and I want to sit in the sun and read a book. It's pouring down rain here, so I want to sit in front of my fireplace and read a book. Oh, it's going to start pouring here too in the next couple days. All right. Thank you guys for your questions and comments and sticking with us. And oh it was our most downloaded episode ever. You then the first. Oh and that's what I was going to tell you. We're closing. We're going to close this out with this last week. I know it's not number one or number two, but we were number 198 out of all of Apple Podcasts. Stop it. Oh, I feel like for new babies who don't know what they're doing, being in the top 200 is a big deal. Oh, are you serious? Is that on Buzzsprout? How'd you find that out? No, I found I just figured out where to find it out, and I looked us up, and I saw where we were, and we're, like, not far behind podcasts we have heard of. And then it also shows like people who may come to your episode from these. So we have, like Scamander, Armchair Expert, Glennon Doyle, our podcast that people who listen to us also listen to. So we're doing something right. Top 200 podcasts. Listen I'm gonna that calls for champagne. Number 198, baby. 198 on all of Apple. Thank you for listening to us. Thank you for hanging in with us. We love your comments. Oh, also come and follow us. We just created our new Instagram page at Books With Your Besties. So head over to Instagram and give us a follow there please. Bye guys. Bye. And heads up friends, prepare for next week. We are going to be discussing a Killing Cold by Kate Marshall. If you need a copy, we have them at the Creepy Book Club. Com we have audiobooks in our Amazon shop. Make sure to read it and be ready to chat with us next Tuesday on Patreon. Thanks for listening. For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club. Happy reading!