“Finding God After Religion I John Williamson: The Deconstructionists” Ep#28

In this episode of Spiritual Hot Sauce, Chris Jones sits down with John Williamson, co-creator of The Deconstructionists Podcast, to explore what happens when faith falls apart—and how that collapse can lead to deeper truth. They unpack the evolution of the deconstruction movement, how doubt can become a spiritual tool, and why some voices stay stuck in anger while others find healing. From megachurch culture to the bull elephant of enlightenment, John and Chris journey through questions of belief, identity, and what it means to keep seeking when 

"Deconstruction isn't something that happens to you—it’s a natural progression of faith."

                                     — John Williamson

Connect with John Williamson at

https://thedeconstructionists.org

This episode of “Spiritual Hot Sauce” by Chris Jones is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.  

Transcript

Chris Jones 0:00

When your faith falls apart or you're not accepted and everyone thinks you're lost, my guest, John Williamson's podcast, The Deconstructionist, says what you need to hear. You're not crazy. For nearly a decade, he's been a lifeline for thousands navigating the wilderness of doubt and rejection with the simple call of hope. You're not alone. Welcome. I'm Chris Jones. And this is Spiritual Hot Sauce. John, welcome to the sauce. Thank you so much. Honored to be here. Oh, I'm I'm excited to have you here. This is this is going to be good. But I have to ask, when you first hit that record button, did you have any idea that you were going to become one of the leading anchors in this movement?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

No, gosh, no. When my my former podcast co-host, Adam and I, I was just talking to Adam actually, when we first sat down, sat down rather to record our first episode, we we kind of just thought, hey, like, you know, we we felt like we were having some interesting conversations between the two of us. And we thought, hey, maybe there'll be a few people out there who might benefit from this. And so when we sat down to record, we just kind of thought, hey, at the end of the year, if 100 people are listening to this and that's a success, and really had no idea that there was a need for those types of conversations and the way in which it took off, you know, you couldn't have told me that it would have ended up the way it did. Yeah, we got we got really lucky. We hit that wave early. So tell us a little bit about your own deconstruction. Sure. Mine, you know, as I'm sure you've talked about on your podcast as well. You know, there's a couple, you know, there's multiple different ways that you could find yourself on the path of deconstruction. And mine was probably the most benign, I guess. Um mine was sort of just out of curiosity, it was one of those hallmark moments, you know, in the in the course of your life when I was about to have my first child, you know, before my daughter was born. It kind of hit me that, you know, I was already sort of asking questions. I've always been a curious person. I always researched the heck out of everything. And and so it was no different. And in that moment, I I knew I needed to figure out what is it that I believe? Why do I believe those things? Where do these beliefs come from? And and in what way do I want to raise my daughter? And so that's sort of how it began. And I but I I do know that that's not the case for everybody. I know some people are sort of thrown into it, you know, through trauma and and and things that aren't so um, you know, innocent.

Chris Jones 2:36

Yeah, a friend of mine, Kyle Whitaker from a pastor and philosopher, walk into a bar. He came on and we talked about this. And and it's like he said, if you've met one deconstructionist, then you've met one deconstructionist because everybody has a different story. Yeah. But but yet, uh, you know, I find and I think from what I've seen that there seems to be two catalysts that kind of prompts this. You're either running to something or from something. And it it seems to me some people plan and they have a strategy, they do some research before they they make this happen. They realize this is not an event, that this is definitely a process, and there's probably some painful moments going to be in this. So they prepare and now they have a strategy and they go somewhere and they deconstruct in that process. Where other people, it's like what you're talking about, they have this emotional trauma. They're hurts and they have an emotional knee-jerk reaction, and they're not running to something as much as they're running from something. Unpack that for me.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah. I I think in my experience, and and this, you know, this is based on experiences with listeners, you know, writing and that sort of thing. And who knows from a statistic point what the breakout is. But in my experience, it seems that a lot more folks are on the side of having been sort of thrown onto the path of deconstruction through some sort of traumatic event of varying degrees, versus folks like myself who just sort of stumbled upon the path. There are a lot of folks who unfortunately have had some sort of evangelical, predominantly negative experience of some kind and found themselves sort of deconstructing or asking questions. Something that precipitated them asking a question that sort of set the thing into motion. If I had to pick one, I would pick the probably the route that I took, where I sort of got to do it in my own terms at my own pace and sort of gradually find my way there. Was it more difficult than what you thought it was going to be, or was it what you expected? It was, I wouldn't say it was more difficult. I would say it was different than I thought it was going to be. I would say when I first started, I didn't have a term for it. I just knew I was wrestling with things. You know, my my former co-host Adam is the one that sort of stumbled upon the term deconstruction, which was just sort of starting to become a term to, you know, to sort of label this experience with at the time when we started about 10 years ago. And so I I found that helpful. I know a lot of the philosophy purists uh hate that we've sort of co-opted that term, but I I find it useful. And I think other people find it useful because they can use it to describe an experience that they're having. And I think naming a thing uh sort of takes some power back from it, you know, and sort of takes some of the fear away from it. Yeah. But I I think for me back then, you know, I just started looking for resources wherever I could. And unfortunately, there weren't a ton at the time. I think there were a couple other big podcasts at the at the time when we first started, or at least started around the same time. The one that, you know, that we sort of modeled ourselves after was a British podcast that's still going. Great guys. There's just one host now, but the Nomad podcast out of the UK have been doing terrific work for a long, long time. And so there were a couple places that you could go and some authors that we sort of started to compile, but it was really just through our own research at the time. Now there are, you know, a multitude of different podcasts and and books and things on the topic. And so there's a lot more helpful resources, I would say, now than there were back then.

Chris Jones 6:10

You know, I think because I have such a different kind of podcast because we overlap, but what I try to do is present Jesus outside of religion. So we talk a lot about the worshipers of the deity of Christ versus disciples of Christ, two different things. But I'm always amazed at how many nomadic people there are, that they seem to have no home. And some of them go from religion to religion, and they just seem a little lost to me. I'm not sure how they get there, and I'm not sure how they get out of it. But it it seems like that sometimes when they get in there, they get caught in this hurt loop, I call it, that they're in a perpetual state of hurt that maybe they don't know how to get out of. And I think probably going through that exercise of writing the letter that you never send. But as in this day and age, we always send, you know, it always ends up online. Yeah. And there's a lot of people just lashing out. And I get it. They're they have legitimate hurt, and and this is part of the process. But where do you draw the line where you realize that, hey, I'm not going through a process, I'm in a perpetual loop of hurt that I'm I'm almost taking on the identity of a victim?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah. I think that's a great question and a great point. Something that we've talked a lot about and something that has sort of concerned me in the years after we started our podcast is we always try to take as gentle approach as possible. And because you are dealing with people who have dealt with real trauma, things that I've never personally encountered but can sympathize with. But I do think there's a danger in staying in that anger for too long. A lot of unfortunately, the newer voices over the last five, six, seven years are people that are sort of coming at it from uh and I I don't want to demean anyone, but but from like an immature place where it's a lot of just bashing on, you know, that former religion version of Christianity that they left. And I've always said you've you've got every right to be angry and upset. And there's a place for that, absolutely. But like any grief or any grieving process, there has to come a point where you recognize it for what it was and you you gotta let it go. You know, it's it's and this is why we've always kind of leaned on the teachings of like the Franciscan monk Richard Rohr, who says, you know, you have to respect it for the thing that it was, that structure, that go that you can kick against now. So it gave you sort of the foundation, but now you can kind of look at it from a distance and say, you know what, it wasn't good for me, but it taught me some things and now I know how to move forward from there. Yeah. But like it's not healthy to stay in that place of just anger and bitterness.

Chris Jones 9:03

But I think maybe you hit on one of the points, and it's easy to monetize a problem. Yeah. You know? And if you're gonna have a platform that let's be honest, your cash flow is this issue. You're about pointing out the problem, but you're not necessarily about a solution. Right. Is that part of the problem, like you were mentioning with some of the newer podcasts that they're just trying to cash in on this movement rather than legitimately get people to a better place?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I yeah, it's hard to say. I I don't know for sure, but I, you know, I don't know the heart of the of the folks behind the microphone per se, but you know, they certainly have large audiences and they certainly use that as a strategy, at least it seems on the outside. Now, Adam and I said from the beginning, you know, we worked full-time jobs from the start. I still do. This has never been a full-time job for me. I'm sort of thankful for that in the respect that it was never about the money. We kind of always said, look, if it ever got to the point where our decision making changed because this was, you know, sort of like earning income and that sort of thing, that sort of poisons the well. Yeah, I think. Yeah. And it it's not genuine, genuine anymore. And Adam put it best a long time ago when he said, Look, you know, our hope is that you don't listen to us forever because you don't need to listen to us forever. You know, and and we've had people come in and out and and people come back every once in a while to check in and listen. And our our listenership is ebbed and flowed, and and that's fine, you know. And and my hope is that people find something and sort of move on from it, you know.

Chris Jones 10:41

Are you seeing things collect and get more momentum in deconstruction, or is this something that you're seeing slow down? Is it bouncing out? Where are you seeing it going right now?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I mean, I I think I think what happens is, and I've wrestled with this for a really long time. I think before deconstruction or the deconstruction movement really sort of took off, you had the what was it called, the emergent church movement, you know, and so it was essentially the same thing, right? Like, you know, trying to try to show people, hey, there's a different way of doing this that doesn't mean this, this sort of super restrictive version of Christianity. There's a way that that we can wrestle with faith, and that's okay, and not have all the answers, and that's okay. And ambiguity is good, you know. I think it just changes names, you know, as time goes on, because now we've seen a lot of a lot of folks online who've sort of demonized the term. And just like anything else in religion or politics, they like to weaponize a certain term that people are associated with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I would got on my I got on my soapbox the other day about political terms. But I think it'll it'll probably change. If I had to guess, at some point people start using the term deconstruction a little bit less and then they'll latch onto something else.

Chris Jones 11:57

But it'll essentially be the same. A new movement. Yeah. Curious about exactly what you said. I think you you hit on a valuable point. We're always looking for something, but that also speaks to we're never quite happy where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah. And I think as people grow and learn and evolve in their faith, and that's the hope, right? Is that people are constantly evolving. And that's the way I look at it now. Deconstruction isn't so much something that happens to you as it is a natural progression of your faith, you know, hopefully. I think where it becomes painful is where you resist. And then it becomes potentially traumatic. But I think the natural evolution is you start out with this sort of first grade understanding where it's very surface level, you know, especially when you're looking at certain stories within scripture. But then as you get older and you start to become, you know, more nuanced and you know, you start understanding more complex ideas like myth and, you know, metaphor and things like that, then the the text really starts to open up a lot more. But if you resist that and you try to stay in that first, you know, that first square, then I think it is one of those things where you either have a choice, you have to double down on that, or you go through sort of this painful journey of deconstruction, which again, I think it's natural. It's a part of it. I mean, we can see examples in in the Bible, you know, the book of Job, like literally, he's just yelling at God constantly, like, what the heck, you know? And yet we ignore those parts of the Bible. We we we ignore lamentations and and sort of the the tougher parts to to look at, you know, it's not all happy, you know, worship songs, you know, throughout the world. Pick and choose. We do, yes.

Chris Jones 13:38

Yeah, I said one time that it's like a a collage board. We we take different pieces and parts we like and we kind of create our own religion that we're comfortable with. But it's a false sense of security because a good religion should serve you and help you have a better life.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah.

Chris Jones 13:52

So if you have something that's not really helping you have a better life that's just comfortable, it may not be a very good religion. Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Yeah, yeah. You know, what something you said about square one and never moving on, that takes me to a metaphor that I've been giving, and I and it's an ancient one, but that's the metaphor of the bull elephant. You can be in the community and talking about the bull elephant that's out in the jungle. You can sing songs about the bull elephant, you can encourage one another about the bull elephant, and you can try to figure out what you think the bull elephant would like you to do. But until you leave your community and you go out into the jungle and you take that journey and all that entails, and everything you go to, and then you have the experience of the bull elephant yourself, until then you've just been in community. You've never had the real experience. And I think that when you come up through a fear-based religion, nobody wants to go see the bow elephant because they're terrified of the bow elephant. But we'll comply and we'll go to the church because we find beauty in the community. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. And so I think we have a lot of people that are deconstructing, and I think there's two ways you can do that. You can deconstruct and go find your bow elephant, go find your truth, you know, and then when you come back to your community, you have something valid to offer. Or you can leave your comfortable table that you don't like anymore, and then go find another table that's more comfortable. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

You just hit on the hero's journey, right?

Chris Jones 15:37

Well, I just recorded that today for my next episode that you know Christ is the archetype. So yeah, man, you just nailed it. Yeah. Did a big deep dive into that. But yeah, the metaphor of the bow elephant comes out of Buddhism and of the Upanishads. Right. But I but I think it's so true. And I worry that some of these nomadic people that we've been talking about may be lost and not looking for the bow elephant, but just looking for another table of encouragement, which is a byproduct of a fear-based religion.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah. Well, and it kind of reminds you, too, of sort of the lesson that even in the Old Testament, you know, the they were trying to teach the uh the Jewish people where they were so afraid that the temple is going to be destroyed. And that's where, but that's where God lives. You know, what are we going to do? You know, it's like, no, no, no, no. God, God exists everywhere, not just inside this physical building. And it made me think of that when when you when you gave that example, where, yeah, it's it's you know, this performative one time a week thing that we do and not something that's lived out in our everyday lives. And I think that's a large problem, specifically within Western Christianity. And we see it playing out now, you know, in a moment where if at any point in US history, you know, uh Christians should be speaking up and protecting their brothers and sisters, now would be the time, you know?

Chris Jones 17:02

So do you think part of what triggered all of that was when you have organized religion? Carl Jung says that organized religion keeps us from having a personal experience with God, you know, and I'm paraphrasing. But when you have uh organized religion and you have this group of people that they pick to be their leaders because you look the part, you sound the part, you can do what they you can represent the brand, and that's a good way to say it, the brand of that religion, that we have made it so indoctrinated in the denomination that we have fooled ourselves into thinking that becoming more religion and more indoctrinated, that we, we we're finding truth. That is making God happy, you know. I I think until we go find our bull elephant, we will never be happy with that table of encouragement where we're sitting at, because we're maybe we're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

I yeah, I often wonder about that. I do think that there is a problem. And this isn't new, you know, we can look back and look at the Catholic Church in Europe all throughout history, but the new version of that, you know, I think is this sort of megachurch where, you know, brand becomes more important than mission and, you know, and performance becomes more important, you know. And so when we start to reprioritize in a way that doesn't put the people first, I think we run into these problems that are an eventuality, really. And I do wonder, I think back to the early church, you know, where, you know, two or more gathered in my name, where they were house churches. I I saw online today somebody said something to the effect of the most Christian friends I have are the atheists in my life. And I think about like the atheists, you know, at the coffee shop, who are kind and loving people. And I know I'll I'll get some flack for that, but they're more Christ-like in a lot of the things that they live out than a lot of the Christians I know.

Chris Jones 18:59

I've got a friend of mine who was an atheist, and he has a pretty amazing story of why he deconstructed a long time ago and wh why he became an atheist. But he's been listening to the podcast and we've had talks and discussions, and now he claims to be a Christian atheist. And yeah, that the message he says, he goes, he goes, I don't need the magic of the Bible, Chris. He says, the message is the magic.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah.

Chris Jones 19:25

And it's how we heal humanity. I call it becoming the antidote to the poison that if we actually fulfill the command of Christ and become a disciple like him, that we heal humanity of the poison that's in it. But he said something. I listened to him. He kind of went on a rant. And I thought, man, that just says how ingrained we are with this. And he was going on about the idea of God and how ridiculous and the church and this and this and this. And I was just letting him vent. And he just stops right in the middle of his rant. He looks at me, he says, Is that okay? I said, Yeah, that's okay. And I thought, you know, I got the same thing though. The church has given me such guilt that if I have any doubt whatsoever that I'm in major sinville, you know, that I'm not in the faith. I'm really displeasing God. I've I've all been blasphemed. Oh my gosh. But yet, God has given us doubt. And when we're going into specially spiritual things, you recently had Peter Rollins on your show. You guys did a double episode. Incredible. Everybody should go listen to it. It is fantastic. And there was a lot of great things you guys talked about. It was wonderful. But Peter Rollins, he brought up something. He was talking about doubt. And I talk about it in kind of like a toolbox. You have different tools in your box to know what to get out the time. And he talked about doubt like it was a tool. And I said, you know, that's brilliant. And that's so counter to what we've been taught in evangelical religion, is that doubt is a tool. That is, to me, that's like your machete of how you work through the jungle to go find your bull elephant. But at the same time, I realized that we have been so ingrained never to doubt. You know what I mean? Yeah. Never doubt. Yeah. And I thought that that's not anything spiritual. That's just control. That's just religious control. So what have you done or what have you seen for people to navigate and give ourselves permission to use doubt as a tool?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Oh man. I, you know, I'm my answer would probably change every day. I think I don't know if this is necessarily answering your question, but I I find that to kind of go back to the point you made about control, I think that's a large part of it. And I think that's the major part of the problem is we like the comfort. Of being able to go to a church that has beautiful graphics and great music. We want to be entertained. Entertain me.

Chris Jones 22:39

We're armchair Christians now. We don't want to work for it. Just give it to me. And I'll give my money. I'll go home.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Right. Yeah. They give you the welcome packet with here's all the stuff you need to believe, right? So you've got your checklist, you've got this great talented band up there pumping you full of good, good feelings because all worship music is sort of designed the same way, you know, to reach this climax where like you're just you're filled with with you know endorphins or whatever. And and it's this great experience. And then you leave feeling, feeling great, you know, and and the pastor looks great, they're sharp looking up on stage and they've got all the answers. When the reality is we're joking ourselves if we think we've got it all figured out. And the Bible even says, like, you know, we can we can't even grasp the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding what God is, you know. I think the first step is sort of letting go of our addiction to certainty. That's hard. And that's that's really hard because in every aspect of our lives, you know, if you look at every aspect of our lives, even outside of religion, you know, we like comfort and we like stability and we like certainty in all things. Like I like to know tomorrow how my day is going to go, roughly speaking. Change is painful. Good or bad is painful. Yeah. Ambiguity is tough, man. And really sort of leaning into ambiguity and unknowing is really difficult. But anybody listening who's really gone deep into science, especially as it pertains to the universe and outer space, knows that we don't know anything. You know? No, we don't. The more we learn, the more we don't know. You know, the more things we uncover that we're like, well, this is a new mystery. And so for me personally, I think, you know, I've always been interested in space exploration and things like that. And so I think science in that regard has sort of helped me in that sense. You know, I see pictures taken from the James Webb Space Telescope of deep space, and I'm like, wow, that is beautiful. You know, that is God's artwork out there, you know? And so, in a way, in a weird way, that sort of helped me sort of let go and kind of embrace the fact that, like, you know what, I've gotten to a point now where I don't want to know everything. I don't like to me, because to me, that limits, that places restrictions on the divine. Yeah.

Chris Jones 24:57

Yeah. We make God smaller than I think what he is, and we want him to live in that box because that's where we're comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Right. We want God to be predictable and we want, yeah, you're absolutely right. And so for me, the more the older I've gotten and the longer I've, you know, researched and lived in this space, the more I love the fact that there's this incredibly massive, unknowable God out there. And every day maybe I learn a little bit, but knowing that I'm never gonna have the whole picture is kind of cool to me. But I think the important part is, and this is sort of my uh my working theory here, is that when the Bible says, you know, we're all gate made in God's image, I don't think it was a literal, you know, God looks like old man on a throne. I think it was more so like if we believe that God is love and God is the source of all love, then my working theory has always been that he meant that we are all made in his image in the sense that we are all filled with that spark, just a little piece of that love from the greater whole. And when in the moments where we are truly being selfless and truly loving our neighbor as ourselves, and it's love without strings attached, true selfless love. And in that moment, you feel that connection. I feel like in those moments you see the face of God and you experience the divine in those moments. What God's like. Yeah. And it's and people know what I'm talking about. Like when you when you you feel it, it's almost saturates every fiber of your being. And it's there's nothing like it. You know, there's a reason that people, you know, uh fall in love and do crazy things, you know. It's this, it's this, it's this beautiful, amazing experience. Like true love. I'm not talking about, you know, like puppy love or lust or whatever, but like true, you know, just unconditional love and you and you think to yourself, well gosh, like if if the afterlife, you know, is is returning to the source, to the well of all love.

Chris Jones 27:07

Do you think the afterlife when it speaks of heaven and because it doesn't go real deep, do you think it's just talking in ways that we can understand and and possibly it's us assimilating with God and becoming part of that love and that entity of God in that eternal state?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, that's kind of I mean, who knows for sure, right? But um, yeah, no one knows. That's the beauty. That's what I would like to think, you know. I mean, there are other Eastern religions out there who who who believe that that type of thing, that you know, we're we all return to source, you know.

Chris Jones 27:37

Um Moksha or Nirvana, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

The ground of all being, you know, within Hinduism. And so, yeah, I I'd like to think that that's the case, that we return to the creator, to the source of all love. Yeah. I I hope that's the case. I hope that's where our love is.

Chris Jones 27:53

Me too. Yeah. I see, I agree with you. I think you and I are similar there. And I'll tell you briefly, I did a whole episode on this, but I I see God like this of kind of a three-part being. And then I think of where it says that we are living tabernacles. And then when I think about the temple, there were two of them. The first one had the Ark of the Covenant, so there was life in it. It was three parts. The second one only had two parts. The spirit representative didn't have the spirit of God, it was dead. And I said that in music, you can have two notes. They can be in harmony together, but they don't make a chord. It takes the third to make a chord to determine whether it's major or minor. And then it fits into what's called the Ionian scale or the major scale. And it says there's only one scale in music, and that it's all connected in this beautiful universe of music through mathematics, and that if you change a note, it changes all of it. And that reminded me of then when we take God that into our spirit, we then have a three-part synthesis and we belong to something bigger than ourselves, of that eternal thing. It had no beginning, had no ending, it will always be. And it predates time, which means it's not ours by the natural order of things, that Jesus brought it to us, that God so loved us we could be assimilated with Him.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Dude, I love that, man. That is, that is, that is awesome. I love that. Yeah.

Chris Jones 29:23

But really weird. So Peter Rollins also talked about coming together with different religions. And I do that. I got a Hindu friend, and he we get together, and it's it's always amazing of how we inspire each other. And he always says, you know, Chris, every time I talk to you, you make me want to just get into it and you just inspire me and want me to. And we have these great conversations, and it's amazing of how we reflect one another. But I Peter Rollins said the same thing. So I see the beauty of what he's saying. And he said something that stuck out to me. He says, if you really want to know what you're like and what your faith is like, go have one of these meals, break bread with different religions, and then ask them, what do you see in me? Because I, you're going to see things I can't see. So you're like the ultimate. You know, if they're your friends and they know you, they can tell you this is exactly what I see. And I see exactly what he's talking about with my friends. Yeah. So, what's your thoughts on that? Have you ever done anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, great question. Yes. The answer is yes. I I I was taking a seminary class many years ago. It was actually on world world religions, and I've told this story I know on the on the podcast, but but it was, it was absolutely life-changing. We were told that we could not go visit a Jewish temple because, again, we are of the Abrahamic tradition, and so a little too close, you know, in terms of similarity. So they wanted us to experience something that was way outside of our comfort zone. So Islam was on the table, Hinduism, Buddhism. There are a number that that we could choose from. And so I worked, you know, I work with a large number of folks from from India, if you're my daily, my day job. And friend of mine there, you know, he always had some different statues and figurines on his desk. And so I sort of made the assumption that I'm like, I think he might be a spiritual person. And so, you know, we were good enough friends to the point where I could ask him. And I said, Hey, do you do you go to temple somewhere? And and he was really excited to tell me about it. I said, I have to do this assignment. I have to go to a temple and and, you know, kind of take it in and write a paper on it. Do you think it'd be okay if I visited? And he said, Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I went, and it was a night where the weather was just awful. And it was a bit of a drive out into the country for me to get there. And I remember I got stuck in traffic and I was so annoyed. And I thought, man, do I just turn around and go back? You know, and but I thought, no, I need to stick it out. I need to get this assignment done. And and also I was kind of excited. There was, this was a particular night where they did this candle ceremony, and I really wanted to see this. And unfortunately, I missed it. I didn't get to see it because of the traffic, but I did make it out there. And the funny thing is, my first impression was I pulled up and it looked like any other Christian church. Meaning there's a basketball hoop in the parking lot. You walk, I walked in, there's a gift shop off to the side, you know, where you could buy books and stuff like that. Only thing different, really, was you know, there's a spot to you to take your shoes off and you stick them in these little cubbies. And the sanctuary obviously is a little different, laid out a little different. The deities. Yeah. Right. But there's a there's an entranceway, you know, and and like I said, a bookshop, and then and then there's the the sanctuary. And so I I knew that I was clearly the the this big pale skinned guy who stuck out like a sore thumb. And I was trying my best to be as you know quiet as possible and not disrupt anything. And and I really didn't know what to do other than, you know, I was I was really intent on not offending anyone. So so I sort of sat in the back and I took some notes, and I just remember taking it in for a few minutes and thinking, man, this is beautiful, the way that they depict the the various gods and things. They sing, yeah, a lot. Yeah, prayers. And and and there are people who were, you know, sitting in chairs, some sitting in chairs, some kneeling and praying. And the temple priest was reciting the Vedas. And so I like this. It was just this really beautiful sort of spiritual moment. And then this little lady looks back and sees me, like, what the heck is this guy doing here? Probably was a little concerned, rightfully so. And she came back and she said, Hey, you know, can I help you? And I quickly, you know, sort of apologetically explained what I was doing there. And she says, Oh, come in, come in. My husband's the temple priest. And I said, Oh, okay. And she introduces me to him and he immediately just like fills my hands with Mandor Norge slices. Yeah. At which point I panicked because I thought, is this a ritual that I'm not aware of? And I'm going to offend everyone here. And no, it was just hospitality. Like he was just giving me a snack, you know? And and so we sat down and he said, So what would you like to know? And we proceeded to have this hour-long conversation that was beautiful. And at one point, he kind of threw me off because I'd always believed that, oh, they they're the religion that believe in a thousand different gods. And so he looks at me, he goes, You see all those statues of the gods over there? I said, Yeah. He goes, You believe in Jesus? I said, Yeah. He said, Uh, you believe that God came down in human form, you know, to a group of people at a certain time in history, you know, and said, Yeah, yeah. And he says, We believe the same thing. We just believe God came down many times to many different people. Uh, that makes a lot of sense. You know, I was like, oh, yeah. Instead of just one time, you know, God came. Okay.

Chris Jones 34:58

You know, it says in the Bhagavad Gita, yeah, that it's a conversation between Shri Krishna and our incarnation of God, and Arjuna is a warring prince. And Arjuna is wanting to know how many gods there really are. And he keeps pushing in. And Shri Krishna's like, well, look up in the sky. How many stars do you see? He goes, No, no, no, how many gods are there? And he keeps pushing in. The number keeps coming down and down until finally Shri Krishna says, There's only one God. And he says, Well, then why are there so many deities and variations? He says, Because that's how you need to see me. And it's more important that you understand it the way you need to understand it because it's about you. It's not about me. And I thought, man, there is so much in that that is so revealing about how we perceive God. And then that's when I realized none of us can understand what God really is. And that's okay. We all see a little aspect. And as long as we are just finding our way around that mountain, and as long as we're still attached looking for a bull elephant, you know, we're going to be okay. I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

I just wanted to interject that. No, no, no. That's that's beautiful, and and that's exactly it. And so I came away with two conclusions. And number one was at the very end before I left, he said, anytime you want to come back, bring your friends. And everyone, you know, during the service brings food offerings to the various deities. And at the end, we just have this big feast. And number one, I love Indian food. So I was me and you both. I'm with you. I will be there. But as I walked into the parking lot back to my car, it it occurred to me that at no point did he try to convert me, sell me anything. It was just, hey man, we're brothers in this community. Like, let's share a meal. Which is in my mind, you know, one of the greatest things you can do with another human being is share a meal. Yeah. And I thought, wow. If he had stepped into most churches, they would immediately have been throwing the full package at him. Gotta convert you. Gotta convert you. And it's I'm like, wow. And my friend told me a story about a wise priest, you know, that was a part of the order, you know, that they were a part of uh within Hinduism, who, you know, I won't tell the whole story, it's pretty long. But the the essence of the story is that he has a Christian and, you know, all these different people from different religions who approach him to convert. And and instead of saying, Yeah, come come and convert to my religion, he says, listen, there was beauty in the religion that you started with. Focus on that and be the best version of that that you can be. Yeah. Yeah. And in that moment, I began to realize that there are things that we can learn from other religions. And perhaps we all own a piece of that patchwork quilt. That by itself, it's just a piece of fabric. But together we can we have this beautiful picture, you know, that wouldn't exist if we didn't open up and and and meet other people. You said something earlier that that that resonated with me. I was not born, but predominantly raised in a very small town in the middle of rural Ohio. Experienced racism for the first time there and and saw a lot of very narrow-mindedness there. There's some excellent, awesome people there too, but definitely a lot of very sort of narrow-mindedness and that that's allowed to exist because of the bubble in which it exists, you know. And I remember I got into an argument with a guy who was from my hometown once online. And I don't, I try not to do that, but I finally said to him, I said, look, you know, we we got into an argument over his mixcharacterization of the religion of Islam. And he was just spouting off things that just factually were not true that are true of, you know, maybe a radicalized version of it, which would also be true for a radicalized version of Christianity, you know, and that was the point I was at. And finally I said to him, I said, look, man, I moved many years ago. I moved to a much larger city. As a result of that, I am daily surrounded by people who are not like me, who have different politics than me, who practice different religions or no religions. And I've grown to love those people. And when that happens, I can no longer hold the same views that maybe I once did, or maybe that you do. I can't afford to anymore because that that just does not work anymore.

Chris Jones 39:33

Yeah. I have a friend, one of my many friends, he's he's Muslim. He's from he's from Iraq. He was in Saddam Hussein's guard. He was the black guard, he's one of those. And yeah, the other dude is dangerous. We were we were talking one time and I asked him, I said, How do you feel about Jesus? And he started telling me about Jesus. The way he told me about Jesus and the way his face lit up, I promise you, I have never heard Jesus talked about with so much love as I did from him. And I was like, I you are talking about Jesus in a way that I wish the believers could understand Jesus. Yeah. Well, let me tell you, you guys, you do you do a fantastic job. Oh, thank you. And uh I would tell anybody you need to go listen to it, even if you're not deconstructioning, because there's fantastic ideas, there's great conversations that happen on there. And I appreciate what you do very much. Well, thank you. I appreciate that as well. So this has been fantastic, but if you could just leave us with three things, what would you leave us with?

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Oh man. Number one, you're not alone. I think the biggest issue, you know, with folks who start going through deconstruction is this feeling of isolationism, especially, you know, depending on your geographical location. I've had so many people reach out who told me, hey, you know, I live in this very small rural small town where it is, it is heavy, heavy, heavy in the Bible Belt sort of region. And I'm afraid to even talk to my friends about this, you know, because of the alienation that that will uh happen. And and I've also talked to people where that's exactly what happened. They told their friends and family, the people that they trusted and loved the most, were completely abandoned by their community. And so I want people listening to understand that you are not alone. There is a community that can be found no matter where you are, even if it's online. There are thousands upon thousands of people out there having similar experiences. So you're not alone. Number two, to kind of go back to our my Pete Rollins discussion, and I love uh one of his the recent things that he's been working on, this idea of communion versus community. And I especially love it in this age where we see a lot of sort of Christian nationalism, you know, the megaphone out there right now. And I would encourage people to also check out a book called The The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He's an American psychologist, who talks about tribalism, the fact that it binds, but it also blinds. I think what Pete's kind of talking about in communion versus community is so important. We used to talk when we first started, like community, find your community. And I still believe that to an extent. I think you have to have people that you can lean on and trust and be honest with. But there is always always a danger of creating a new in-group and a new outgroup and or creating a new version of fundamentalism just on the opposite end of the spectrum. And so we have to be very careful about that. And so Pete Rowland's idea of communion, where you are your common thread there that brings everyone together is your shared lack versus your shared beliefs. Everyone can band together over their common lack. And that doesn't mean that we all have to fall on the same page, you know, in terms of our beliefs. So I think that's important. The third one, gosh, that's a tough one. I would just say, just because it's fresh in my mind right now, don't be afraid to really read things or consume things outside of your bubble or your safe place. You don't have to, and this is an old saying that I mean you say all the time, but I love it, and I still use it. You don't have to agree with everything someone says to agree with something that they say. And so consume everything, man. Like I got when I first started, I was I was reading everything by Joseph Campbell I could get my hands on, who's a famous. So good. So the Power of Myth series that he did too for PBS back in the day. You know, and and then again, like we talked about, I think I've learned a lot through the beauty of other religions as well. And then there's some really great stuff within Judaism right now, sort of commentary on Christianity that I think is is very helpful. I mean, we we often forget, and it's worth saying, Christians didn't write the Bible. Christianity didn't exist then. You know, the Bible's written by Jews. So so to think that they have nothing to offer in terms of that conversation is ridiculous. So keep an open mind. You're not alone. Find your communion, you know, slash community, and don't be afraid to explore. Greg Boyd, I think, put said this. I believe this is him. Said, there is no no question so large that it could possibly unravel God or something to that effect. So that's right.

Chris Jones 44:32

I like that. I like that. So, how do people follow you, get in touch with you? Tell us about how they link up.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah. So the the podcast, we are celebrating our 10 10-year anniversary this month. 10 years.

Chris Jones 44:45

Which is crazy. That's impressive. It's a lot of work to put on a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah. So as you know, it's it's not not for the faint of heart. There's definitely a lot of work involved. Uh, we're celebrating our 10-year anniversary this month. So a lot of cool things coming. Started working on a series on on Patreon, different deep dives that I've been wanting to do for years that people have asked for. I just haven't had the time to do. So there will be videos along with resource material, study guides, stuff like that. Done one on what does the Bible have to say about LGBTQ? You know, digging into Paul, like which letters did Paul write versus the letters that scholars think that Paul may may not have written, and where do the problematic verses fall, you know, in that spectrum. So a lot of stuff there, but just in general, www.thedeconstructionist.org.org. You can find everything there, link to us on social media. We're still putting out podcasts every week. We'll be back in February. New content, including an interview with a pastor from Ukraine. That sounds interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. When we scheduled the interview, I had to schedule it early because he said, and it didn't didn't even occur to me because we're so disconnected from from things like war that if if we do it too late in the evening and the Russians start bombing, I might lose power. And it's just like perspective. Yeah. Man. Variables that we're not used to Russian thinking about. Right. So yeah, so that's coming God under siege is his book that came out. Absolutely just unique conversation. One that I've not done anything like that before. So that one's the first one coming out in February.

Chris Jones 46:21

Thank you so much for being so generous with your time, John. And thank you for doing such a fantastic job on your podcast and giving hope to a lot of people that normally wouldn't have it. So again, thank you for your time and I appreciate it. And I hope to get you back on here soon.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Absolutely anytime. And uh you have some amazing questions. So uh thank you so much for having me on. It's an honor. Thank you, John.

Chris Jones 46:44

Hey guys, thank you for jumping in here with us today. Remember, if you like the flavor of the sauce, then share it with others and follow us. Yep, follow us. Send me an email. Let me know you're hanging out, that you're tagging along. Spiritualhot sauce at gmail.com. Again, thank you guys, and we'll see you again next week.