"Wayne Teasdale: The Mystic Heart and Interspirituality" Ep#31

In this episode, Chris Jones and returning guest Brian Muldoon explore the life, legacy, and disruptive compassion of monk and mystic Wayne Teasdale, the interspiritual pioneer behind The Mystic Heart and the phrase “interspirituality.” Through Brian’s personal stories—from monasteries in India to encounters with the Dalai Lama—they trace how Wayne’s radical love for the poor, his nondual contemplative path, and his insistence on “love everyone, everywhere, all the time” completely reoriented Brian’s faith, practice, and work in the world. Along the way, they wrestle with doubt, shadow, community, and what it means to live as a “monk in the world” while staying rooted in one’s own tradition but open to the wisdom of all.

https://a.co/d/0gM8iTAf

Brianmuldoonlaw@gmail.com

https://www.mind-university.com/about1

This episode of “Spiritual Hot Sauce” by Chris Jones is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.  

Transcript

Chris Jones 0:00

Today, Brian Muldoon and I are sitting down to dive into the life and work of Wayne Teesdale, the monk and muffler who famously coined the term interspirituality. Now, full disclosure, some of what Brian Muldoon shares might be a bit uncomfortable to hear. But I don't think it's meant to tell you what to believe, but rather challenge us all to figure out what we believe. Welcome. I'm Chris Jones. This is Spiritual Hot Summice. So I am back with Brian Muldoon. It was so good we had to come back and do it again. Except this time we're going to have a conversation, deeper insight into Wayne Teesdale and his teachings, and also into Brian's personal journey of faith. So, Brian, welcome back to the SUS. Good to be here, Chris. So we were just talking about before we got on into this, the Brian has got so many different things going on. This guy's rushing around trying to make time to get here to do this episode. So, first of all, thank you for making time. So let's just jump right in because I know you're limited on your time. Tell me about how you met Wayne Teesdale, what you thought about him when you first met him, and then how that all kind of unfolded till you get to the point where you say he changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Well, I was doing a lot of inner work with sort of retired Methodist pastor named Hal Edwards in Chicago. And Hal's ministry was really to clerics and religious officials from every tradition. He ran small groups with them, so a rabbi would be sharing with somebody from the Greek Orthodox Church and so on. And one day Hal asked me if I would come and do a bit of a presentation on a retreat he was running for these clerics. I said, Well, I'm I'm the last person in the world to be preaching to the to the not only the choir, but uh to the pastors up there. But he said, No, I think it'll give him an interesting perspective. So I gave a talk about the the path being off the path, because I I always seemed to be uh avoiding the traditional roots and taking the alternatives. And while I was there, Hal said, Well, there's a monk here at this monastery, St. Pacopius, that you that I know you'd get along with. So you you should meet him. And that was Wayne Teesdale.

Chris Jones 2:43

About what year is this?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

This would have been like 1992 or so, let's say. And and and so I met Wayne, and he Wayne had lived at a couple of other monasteries besides St. Procopius in New England and and around. And more even more interestingly, he'd been ordained as as a monk in India, in not just the Catholic tradition, but the Hindu tradition as well. And Wayne describes this in his book, The Mystic Heart, that that he saw parallels as had the founders of an ashram in India, parallels between Advaitic Hinduism and apophatic, what's called apophatic Christian mysticism. Let me share a little bit about his personal story. Wayne was the illegitimate child of a very suspicious relationship between his biological father and a cleaning woman who worked at their home. Wayne was disavowed and disowned by both of them. He was set into the world as an orphan. He lived with, I think, seven different foster families and was completely unloved and uncared for. And one day, when he was in high school, I think, he was sitting on a park bench reading, and a gentleman came by and said, Young man, why are you not in school? And he said, Well, because it doesn't matter anymore. None of this matters. And and this was a guy that he referred to as Uncle John. Just out of the goodness of his heart, this complete stranger said, Well, this is not okay. You need to be educated properly, and I'll see that you are. And and Uncle John basically became Wayne's de facto parent. And he not only put him through high school but through college. Wayne ended up with a PhD from Fordham University in mysticism, and it took up communication with a former Oxford Don named Bede Griffiths, who was the abbot of a small monastery in South India. And Bede invited Wayne uh to join their community. Bede had had uh was maybe the third abbot that this Shantivanam had uh as its uh leader. And it was founded by a couple of Jesuits, I believe, who believed that on the mystic path all traditions uh merge into one. And so they celebrated both uh as you say, Advaitic Hinduism celebrated Mass with readings from not only the Christian scriptures, but also from the Vedas. And Wayne was part of that uh tremendous history, very experimental.

Chris Jones 5:51

That explains a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah. Wayne found his way there. And he happened to be in London one point, and somebody came up to him and said, Are are you going to the meeting with the Dalai Lama? And he goes, I don't know anything about what you're talking about. He goes, Oh, well, over at such and such a place, the Dalai Lama's meeting with a group of Christian theologians and monks, and you should probably go. And he said, Oh, that sounds really interesting. So he did. And when when Wayne showed up, the only empty chair was the one sitting right next to the Dalai Lama. So he took that. And for the rest of the meeting, the Dalai Lama only spoke to Wayne. Wow. He sensed something very powerful about that connection. And from that moment, they became very close friends. As you know, Thomas Merton, the great uh Trappist monk and Zen practitioner, had been a a close friend of the Dalai Lama since 1968 or so. And with Merton's unfortunate death, the Dalai Lama really had nobody on the Christian side to share with, and Wayne became that person. He personified the Christian ethic.

Chris Jones 7:08

Aaron Ross Powell So do you think and I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of Wayne, but did Wayne ever share with you in your time with him that he thought that that was divine intervention, or did this just kind of happen?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Aaron Ross Powell No, I think he definitely felt the guidance of God in that connection very strongly. And Wayne, for all of his interfaith and interspirituality, was first and foremost practitioner of Catholicism and believed very much that God had created that that connection.

Chris Jones 7:43

Aaron Powell I think he made the quote that I am a Christian by faith, but a Hindu by culture and a Buddhist by temperament. That's an interesting quote. And that but that's a very in-depth quote, too. It was a very thoughtful. Yeah. All right. So he got connected with the Dalai Lama, and they became friends in the Dalai Lama's connection to Christianity. And how did you come to form a relationship with him, a friendship that how he would change your life?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Aaron Ross Powell Well, in 1993 in Chicago, there was a big interfaith event called the Parliament of the World Religions. And when we first met at his monastery, fell into conversation about each of us and our pursuits. Wayne said, Well, there's this big event coming up, and I'm on the board of trustees for the event, and I'd I'd like you to make a presentation at the at the Parliament. And let's do one together. Let's talk about men's spirituality. Let's talk about the interfaith path that each of us has walked in in our own way. And we'll do a workshop on that. And we'll call it a monk in the world. Because I was a civilian outside the monastery, but I love going to monasteries, retreat, and for meditation and contemplation. And Wayne was an insider who always wanted to be out. So it was a very strong friendship from the Trevor Burrus.

Chris Jones 9:15

So you guys had a very nice connection. So do you think that that was divine intervention as well, or did that just happen?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

They could have been messing with it.

Chris Jones 9:36

However, it came about, it came about.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

A brilliant, brilliant woman who understood every tradition extremely well and was conversant in all of them to the point that she was actually able to facilitate the best expression of these many religions at the Parliament. Her mind really encapsulated the whole thing. So Wayne and Barbara and I became kind of a triumvirate over time.

Chris Jones 10:19

Aaron Ross Powell Is It's in that place where you developed that relationship with Wayne? Yes. But it would carry on for years, though.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. And and Wayne was especially good friends with Tenzin Chogil, T. C., the Dalai Lama's younger brother, who just passed away in the last couple of weeks. And so he was sort of a family favorite for the Dalai Lama. Stayed at the Kashmir Cottage, which is where the Dalai Lama's mother lived, and was welcomed throughout Dharmsala. Everybody knew him as the Dalai Lama's buddy.

Chris Jones 10:57

Aaron Powell So I have a question for you. I everybody can go see Wayne Teesdale speaking. There's a lot of videos out there. He's had a author of a lot of books. But what was your personal relationship with him? Was you more impacted with his teaching or the friendship?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Aaron Ross Powell I I would say his friendship was his teaching. Yeah. I mean he could converse with with the best of them in terms of, you know, what what are what's the nexus and connection between Advaitic Hinduism and Christian mysticism, but who he was as a person was was really his teaching.

Chris Jones 11:36

So what is it that impacted you so much that you would say he changed your life?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

You know, Chris, I I when I met Wayne, I would say I was kind of a wash in a somewhat despairing materialistic worldview. Had been disappointed in in many ways with my my inability to find the true path. And when I met Wayne, all that lifted. I think it's fair to say that my relationship with him was was one that was benefited by grace.

Chris Jones 12:13

So before you were struggling to find your personal experience with the divine or your truth, and after Wayne it made the path clear, you understood it. Is that a fair assessment? Am I getting this right?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Aaron Ross Powell Yes. Yeah. And and he he provided a lot of very generous coaching and teaching along the way.

Chris Jones 12:36

Aaron Ross Powell Share some of that with me so I kind of know what you're talking about. I would like to experience that with you through your story.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah. Well, for for example, I was in Dharmsala, India, with with Wayne on one occasion. We were gonna meet with the Dalai Lama to prepare him, let him know about a conference called synthesis dialogues. As we were walking up to sort of his official residence, there were 20 or so lepers who were sitting on blankets by the side of the road. And with their hands out, they were, they were begging. Wayne was just shocked by this. He, when we got together with with one of the top monks in the Tibetan government in exile, Wayne said, What is it with these monks? You th you think everything uh should be divine and spiritual, and yet here are these people who are suffering from a terrible disease begging outside the palace, this is not all right. These people need to be cared for and loved and supported.

Chris Jones 13:48

Aaron Ross Powell So he was an advocate for the less fortunate.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Aaron Ross Powell Always and was not shy about embarrassing any of his friends in other spiritual circles. And he was especially appalled by the U.S. government's failure to support Tibet in its struggles after having been conquered by China. So he lived the the very best of Christianity.

Chris Jones 14:15

Aaron Powell I was going to say that sounds like the manifestation of a disciple of Christ, because that's what we were told to be discipled in, is how he loved others. Yeah. So he was always like this. He was always moved by people that were hurting or needy, especially the less fortunate.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah. And not just people. He felt the same compassion for the environment. In fact, when he was later ordained by the Archbishop or Cardinal of Chicago, Francis George, part of his ordination was a ministry on behalf of the planet as well as a ministry on behalf of the people of Tibet. Just a short story about that. There was Interfaith Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a number of years ago. And Wayne was giving a presentation there with Houston Smith. So I was there to just observe and support Wayne. And I was in a meeting with some other people, and Wayne came rushing in, and he said, There's a terrible emergency. I need to have everybody come with me so we can intervene. And we're like, I th I thought somebody had been assaulted. So Wayne led three or four of us to one of the missions, an AA mission. And uh there was a really rough tech crowd, I have to say, hanging around and looking at this group of folks who seemed to be full of themselves. And Wayne just came up and he said, he said, Did did you see that little bird that fell out of its nest? It was right here, and I put a piece of bread right next to it. And the guy goes, Are you one of those guys? He goes, Me too. I found a baby squirrel in my backyard, and I've been taking care of it ever since. And Wayne was like, Well, I don't know where that little baby bird went, but we we need to find it and take care of it. And that, I mean, he was not shy about interrupting the entire schedule of this conference to take care of a baby bird.

Chris Jones 16:20

Aaron Powell Being a good steward, yeah. So let's go back to where you were talking about these lepers. That was begging for for money. And you've seen Wayne have such an outpouring of compassion to the point that he would voice his concerns and opinions to the people in charge there. Sure, with a great amount of conviction. You said you named this as one of the primary things that you know impacted you and changed your life.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Well, i it wasn't just that he complained to the authorities about their not taking care of these lepers. He insisted that I come up and be with them. And so I did. So he and I both went up, we got to know who they were, they brought their family members along. No it seemed like nobody had ever actually paid any attention to them. And we kind of got a feeling for the pecking order of the group and what they needed and why. And it was just extremely touching. And then a year later or so, I was back in Darmsala, and a cab driver came up to me and he said, Your friends are waiting for you. And I said, What do you mean, my friends? He said, Well, come with me. And all the leopards had leopards had gathered uh an alleyway and held out their hands.

Chris Jones 17:51

Let's talk about this for a second because that's a pretty powerful moment. Uh and what I'm hearing is most people would walk by, or most people would give money. You know, and then that's we've done our part. We we've almost just kind of soothed our own guilt, you know, or made ourselves feel better. But that's not what he did. What he did was is he made them the priority. These were the people in need. So he did everything he could to not only give an immediate, you know, comfort of money, but he also wanted to change their circumstances and he got to know them. There's something very Christ-like in that.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Because for him, everyone in need was his brother.

Chris Jones 18:40

So you are impacted by love and compassion and the stewardship, this Christ-like behavior from Wayne Teesdale. And this starts impacting you differently. It starts hitting you and it starts changing you. What starts changing in you from that?

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Well, I I would say up until that point, compassion was was optional for me. There were times that I would and times that there that I wouldn't respond. And and I feel like Wayne p planted a seed in me by his example of what it means to actually love your neighbor. And everybody is your neighbor. And and he lived that. You know, being at the Parliament of the World Religions there was a wonderful time to see how that played out in other traditions as well. I I remember there was one religion, which I won't name, that was having a a big presentation on caring for the homeless. Well, some some social activist in Chicago got about 30 homeless people together and brought them into the presentation where they were ejected by security forces. Oh my gosh. And it's like that ain't it. I mean, uh everybody's had Shadowside, I think, gets exposed from time to time, particularly at events like that.

Chris Jones 20:11

And did you ever see times in your life or in Wayne's life where it was just people in your path? It was almost like they were placed there in order for you to help them because you would help.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Well, I I I uh at the time I definitely did feel that these opportunities were being provided in in some fashion that I couldn't quite describe. There there was a a kind of synchrony that certain people would show up at certain times. I I I don't want to place too much emphasis on that because I think life and the world unfold according to their nature. But but I I there have been obviously a number of of things that I've been fortunate to experience that in many ways are are une uh explicable. Inexplicable.

Chris Jones 21:45

So you had said that Wayne planted this seed in you through his behavior, through this love. Did he help cultivate that in you?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, he did. Wayne w was uh was a great teacher. He taught but the teaching that I'm most grateful for was what he gave to my children. Wayne was over for dinner on a pretty regular basis, and my three kids were in middle school at the time, and he he just took them to heart and and would give them little lessons that he felt they would be able to understand, and you know, built a a beautiful relationship with them, just that sort of Uncle Wayne vibration.

Chris Jones 22:33

So Wayne, it sounds like just lived in the moment. Where he was, that's who got his attention and his love.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah, living in the now. He he was definitely that. But but he he showed how to cultivate that. He talked about his own spiritual practice and how the benefits of that. He gave teaching just in a casual way on meditation technique and the different forms of meditation. So being with Wayne at any point, something was was going to emerge.

Chris Jones 23:12

You start evolving and you start changing because you said that you just didn't know where to go. You fought hard to find some spiritual truth in your own life, and you just was not successful until Wayne and he showed you love and planted a seed in that of how you was to see the world. What happened with you to start cultivating this and start growing, where you started having this spiritual growth yourself that became open?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think one one of my beliefs is that meaningful, long-lasting interchange is not just a matter of what happens in your head, but how you live. That improvement or growth in in one's spiritual life, for it to work, has to be put to work.

Chris Jones 24:02

Aaron Ross Powell So we started seeing the external virtue happening. What was internally happening? What does that transformation look like? Because it's when you say path, just so I understand, are you are you talking about the path of externally loving other people and helping humanity?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Trevor Burrus Actually putting it into action.

Chris Jones 24:34

Now did you practice things like meditation? Did you read any scriptures? Do you currently read any text or higher writings or philosophy?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Aaron Ross Powell For Geez, probably 40 or 50 years I've been practicing meditation. You know, Wayne gave me a lot of one-on-one instruction in that. So that definitely strengthened my meditation practice. And Wayne's practice was meditating twice a day and also going for like a one-hour walk. So I started not every day, but taking up that practice as well.

Chris Jones 25:14

Did you start reading anything to challenge yourself with some of different ideas and philosophy other than just and I shouldn't say just love because that is everything to me, but was there other things that was pushing you in kind of a spiritual development of your own personal faith?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Aaron Ross Powell Well, I I would say uh uh attempting to understand the principles of of nondualism. So reading things like The Cloud of Unknowing, very interesting books on that which cannot be said, non-conceptual meditation, and the mystical language of unsaying, if you're familiar with that, basically teaching us how to think in a non-conceptual way. To be able to say things like, well, I am God, God lives within me, and of course I'm not God. That kind of dialectic.

Chris Jones 26:15

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The divine spark. Yeah, the divine spark that's in you, that's in all of us. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah. That's what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

But not as going beyond having a a conceptualization of what that means. In other words, as as human beings, it seems like about the the highest level of our cogni cognition is to uh appreciate the mind of God. But that uh that's uh impossible to do. I mean is there a way of encountering the divine without reducing it to a object-subject dualism? So that is it's not an easy challenge, and I think that's why practices like meditation are so important, that we can somehow ha have that connection without limiting to the conceptual structure that that we deal with in everyday life.

Chris Jones 27:14

Your experience that you had that is so undefinable, but yet transforming, even if you could put it into words, it's not going to help me at all, is it? I mean, the truth is that's your experience. Right. That we all have a path and we all have things we have to work out. And we can share our journeys and encourage one another to get busy on our journeys, but you can't take my truth and live it as your truth. Right. It just doesn't work like that. Right. So And you've it sounds like you've read books that speak more of enlightenment, of a Buddhist perspective without being Buddhist. And kind of from the Vedantic view from Hinduism. Have you ever gone back and reconciled where you came from in your faith, of your origins, of your religion, or is that something that Oh no, it's it's uh a regular part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

I I'm one of eight siblings in an Irish Catholic family. I have a brother who's a deacon in in the church, very involved in uh a lot of baptisms and funerals and sermons and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, each of us finds our path or or doesn't, but we're all walking it whether we know it or not. And sharing I mean, I think the best we can offer to others is is to share our own path and say, let's walk alongside each other for a while here, as long as it makes sense. Uh, and if we have to go our separate ways, that's good. So I think I think a big part of this is learning, at least in in my case, learning to accept that everybody is doing the best they can. We need to support each other in in whatever way we can. I mean, I am constantly finding uh new insights uh into what spirituality really means. It's a constant process and a delightful one.

Chris Jones 29:18

Aaron Ross Powell What's something you could give to somebody else to help them?

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Aaron Ross Powell Well, the thing the first thing that comes to mind is uh facing our own shadows in kind of a Jungian way that that each of us tends to undermine and sabotage our own spiritual growth and looking for ways that that is occurring and addressing that. It's it's a very kind of real-world slog through our own failures and misjudgments and poor choices. But that's the stuff that that we need to address, to me, in discovering our own spiritual nature, is is addressing all that shadowy stuff that we'd rather not look at. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Chris Jones 30:08

We are the mountain that keeps us from God. Yeah. Yeah. Overcome yourself and you know, okay. So you're saying tackle the hard things. Use doubt.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Use doubt on the doubt. Doubt to me is the way. It's not doubt isn't a problem. It's it's our uh it's uh the challenge to make sense and and dive as deeply as we can. You know, what are what are the reasons I'm doubting? Are there valid reasons for this? Have I adopted something that actually is indefensible? And and so looking at at all the hard stuff is the way. Find friends uh on the path. I think it's just really important. You know, in in Buddhism, they they talk about the the three essential pieces being Buddhist doctrine and the practice of it and and being part of a Sangha or community. It's really important. It's not just address our loneliness, but that's what opens us up, I think, is loving response from from those who who've got our backs.

Chris Jones 31:19

Aaron Ross Powell We need a community. It's to encourage you to keep going, you know, encourage you to keep running your race. That's what it should be. And if it's not doing that, it's probably not the right community. Aaron Ross Powell Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah.

Chris Jones 31:29

Great, Chris. Yeah. What's the last thing that you would leave everybody with?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Well, the the the Jesus character in in my book, The Luminous One, his his doctrine, his understanding is all reduced to the demand to love everyone, everywhere, all the time. I think if we're able to move in that direction, then there we're going to find a lot of powerful gifts along the way. Because it's it's obviously really, really difficult and challenging to love those who we feel are destroying the world around us or have given us uh some reason to hate. And to overcome that, that's where we start, and that's a powerful, powerful path, I think.

Chris Jones 32:16

Aaron Ross Powell A man has been poisoned, you don't give him more poison to fight the poison. You have to give him the antidote to the poison.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Aaron Powell Yes. And love is the antidote. Yeah.

Chris Jones 32:25

Aaron Ross Powell You think Wayne would be happy with where you've come to if he'd say you've done well.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Aaron Powell I think so, yeah. Because it's because Wayne was a very forgiving person.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

So I'm not going to say it's well deserved. I'm just saying he was he was a great friend.

unknown 32:47

Yeah.

Chris Jones 32:48

Let's talk about the Luminous One. You've got this book. And uh the last time he was on here, that's we talked a lot about that. Yeah. But you also have Mind University. Is that correct? Mm-hmm. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Aaron Ross Powell For the past nine years, along with my friends uh Rebecca Armstrong and Andrew Shepherd, we have created what we what we hope is at least a partial way of training our minds to not fall under the spell either of AI or of the negative influences that have taken over the Internet. So thinking, good thinking has never been more important than it is now, because literally the the future of the human race depends on it. And good thinking is not something that you get just by reading a book. It's something that your brain has to be trained for. And very few of us are trained in that way.

Chris Jones 33:48

So a lot of us are trained what to think, but not how to think.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

That's right. That's right. And critical thinking in in all of its dimensions is really essential. So Mind University is uh depending on how you do it, a 12 or 15 unit program for training the mind, how to avoid cognitive bias, how to keep ourselves from being propagandized, or uh uh to have our our minds shaped by forces outside of our control or even knowledge. So we'll we're hoping to launch that uh soon. And there's there's just a lot to it. It seems the deeper we go, the more work there is to to deal with it. So we're hoping to get that out soon.

Chris Jones 34:35

Aaron Powell Just one last question I forgot to ask. Do you consider yourself to be a disciple of Wayne? Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

I I would say on my best days. Uh on my best days.

unknown 34:50

Yeah.

Chris Jones 34:50

I think you should write that book.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Well, I I do want to put in a plug for for Wayne's book, The Mystic Heart, though. Because for those who are wondering, you know, what is this stuff about, he it he's got beautiful explanations of all that you and I have been talking about and how they all fit together.

Chris Jones 35:10

So Brian, I appreciate you coming on the thumbs. And uh I'm sure we'll chat again soon because I might enjoy these chats. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Thank you.

Chris Jones 35:19

Thanks, Chris. Thanks for joining me here on Spiritual Home Song. I'd love to hear from you. So please reach out with questions, comments, and opening. And don't forget to like, subscribe, and review us. You can follow us on Facebook for updates and information. And if you enjoy the flavor of the sauce, then please share it with others. Appreciate that. We'll see you next time.