The Autonomy Journals
The Autonomy Journals showcase leading voices, sharing insights, learnings, lessons and perhaps some confessions from the Autonomy Journey in transport and mobility.
SAMS, a private, non-profit innovation cluster for sustainable, autonomous mobility solutions, host the podcast.
The Autonomy Journals
Maritime Autonomy: Safety, Scalability, and the Crew Crisis
Maritime autonomy operates on a three-dimensional spectrum of self-driving capability, remote operation, and manning levels, representing a crucial solution to the maritime industry's pressing challenges of crew shortages and decarbonization requirements.
• Øyvind Smogeli transitioned from assurance and verification of complex systems at DNV to developing maritime autonomy technology at ZEABUZ
• ZEABUZ focuses on three key principles: scalability, modularity, and trustworthiness in theiritsnomy solutions
• Simulation-based testing is essential as startups cannot afford millions of nautical miles of real-world testing
• The maritime market for autonomy is still immature but maturing quickly, with different segments at varying stages of readiness
• Four key drivers for autonomy: crew shortages, complex vessel technologies requiring new skills, dual-use defence applications, and urban waterway mobility
• Zeebus pivoted from building autonomous ferries to becoming a pure autonomy technology provider
• Projects like MF Estelle in Stockholm demonstrate the practical application of autonomous ferry technology in urban settings
• Hardware quality and design remain crucial challenges that even the best software cannot overcome
• Regulatory frameworks are still developing, with vessels currently operating with conventional manning while awaiting broader regulatory acceptance
Join us again for the next episode of the Autonomy Journals brought to you by SAMS, the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Autonomous Mobility and Transport Systems. We'd love to hear from you about what you'd like to learn about autonomy, because in Norway, we do it.
The Autonomy Journals showcase leading voices, sharing insights, learnings, lessons and perhaps some confessions from the Autonomy Journey in transport and mobility.
Subscribe to the Autonomy Journals and join us next time as we continue exploring how Norway leads the way in autonomous mobility solutions. Because in Norway, we do it.
SAMS is a private, non-profit innovation cluster for sustainable, autonomous mobility solutions and the host of the podcast.
I think autonomy is probably one of the world's most misused terms.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Autonomy Journals podcast brought to you by SAMS, the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Autonomous Mobility and Transport Systems. Autonomy In Norway we do it. We are your hosts, eija and Aril.
Speaker 3:I'm leading the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Sustainable Autonomous Mobility Systems.
Speaker 2:And I'm the founder of a small company in the mobility space, Cobra.
Speaker 3:The Autonomy Journals is aimed at inviting you into the autonomous universe of new ideas, innovation, great progress and feedback.
Speaker 2:Translating visions and complexities.
Speaker 3:One interesting conversation at a time and we'll offer links and resources to autonomy sites and news in the credits. Thank you so much for a short visit to our podcast studio. Welcome to the Autonomy Journals Øyvind Smogeli, cto and CEO of Sebas.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Your autonomy journey. How did you arrive here, where you are?
Speaker 1:today. It started actually in a different domain with assurance, or testing and verification of complex software-driven systems, first employee in a spinoff from NTNU, so the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim. That was called Marine Cybernetics. We developed hardware-in-the-loop testing technologies and services for the maritime and offshore industries. That company was acquired by Classification Society DNV back in 2014. And then I continued that path on assurance of complex software-driven systems within DNV back in 2014. And then I continued that path on assurance of complex software-driven systems within DNV, both in classification and advisory, and eventually in research where I was leading a research group called Digital Assurance.
Speaker 1:In that research group we were trying to figure out, you know, how do you do assurance when assets have become digital more than physical. So risks are changing from the traditional physical risks of structures and machinery systems everything you can touch and feel to becoming digital and driven by software. And what's the ultimate challenge when it comes to digital assets in the maritime world? Well, that's autonomous ships, when you want to start replacing human tasks and responsibilities with software. And as part of that work, we scoped a new research project with an exciting new startup from NTNU called Zeebus, and this was started by some of my previous colleagues and friends at the university. Which year are we about here? Late 2019. At the university, which year are we about here? Late 2019.
Speaker 1:The company Zebus was founded by the technology transfer office at NTNU and these professors started sourcing for management in industry.
Speaker 1:I got the opportunity to join as a co-founder and CTO and then I decided to switch sides of the table, so going from being the assurance provider to actually developing the technology. So, in a way, it's a kind of sideways entry into the topic of maritime autonomy. So going from kind of deeply understanding that space for the sake of assurance to actually then going into developing ourselves. We took that DNA with us into the development of Zeebus. So I think, as a startup, we probably spent a big part of our development efforts on ensuring that we develop for assurance, so ensuring that the systems we develop can be tested and verified by third parties. So, basically, thinking of myself in my previous role, because I believe that is going to be critical so when you want to launch autonomy technologies into the physical world, into society, I believe trustworthiness is key and that's a big part of the DNA in in Zeebus and, in a way, the way I came into the topic of autonomy that's a really interesting way of changing the tables.
Speaker 3:I'm from sideways. What was the thing that you expected and what surprised you when looking at it from the other side?
Speaker 1:Yeah that getting ready for testing and verification and future certification certainly is challenging, especially for a startup with limited resources. To think ahead and be prepared, you know that's a big task. It's easy to sit on the other side of the table putting up requirements for what you believe should be done, but then when you switch sides and you see all the effort needed, a bit of a surprise.
Speaker 3:CBUS is built on technical innovations. What makes CBUS so unique?
Speaker 1:What makes us unique. We have three key principles for the technology Scalability, modularity and trustworthiness, and I believe that is one of the unique points of CBUS that we have been developing autonomy to be applicable to a wide range of different vessel types and operation types to a wide range of different vessel types and operation types, making it modular in order to make it easier to develop, test and verify and also ensure that lifecycle maintenance becomes possible. Because of the trustworthiness principles, we've had a big focus on simulation-based development and testing. So again, we put a lot of effort into that toolbox that enables us to do very rigorous testing of our systems before you deploy it out in the real world.
Speaker 1:And here we've been learning from automotive industry, but the experience that they've had is that even millions of miles of real driving is not sufficient to build trust in the systems. They needed billions of miles, and as a startup in the maritime space, you cannot afford to do millions of nautical miles of testing. It's simply not feasible. So you need to find ways to accelerate that, and simulation-based testing is key. So we have some very sophisticated simulators that enables us to deploy the system as it is on board a real vessel in simulation combining then physics simulation, game engines and sensor simulations, but having it in place is a unique and key tool for our scalability what are the growth plans and the visions that you see for that future?
Speaker 1:they course, ambitious. It's become a leading provider of maritime autonomy solutions spanning across different vessel segments and use cases and also different levels of autonomy. I think autonomy is probably one of the world's most misused terms. Many people associate autonomy with unmanned. I usually look at this in three dimensions the level of self-driving capability, the level of remote operation and the level of manning, and any given project or concept will be somewhere in that three-dimensional space and all these attempts at building taxonomies for levels of autonomy, saying that you're at autonomy level three or four, are often just misleading. But especially in maritime, where operations are more complex and actually have more dimensions, you also get into some challenges when you try to build too narrow boxes.
Speaker 3:How ready do you find the market being for autonomous discussions, and what is?
Speaker 1:the market. The market is still immature, obviously, but it is maturing and it's maturing relatively quickly. But we see that many customers are still at an exploratory stage where they are trying to figure out what different levels of autonomous operation means for them and for their operations. So we need to have that customer dialogue. Autonomous systems are not off-the-shelf solutions yet. For some segments, like for small USVs that do surveys and data gathering, we're starting to see an established market where the value proposition is clear. And, of course, you've had other guests on the podcast, like Reach Remote, where the business case for remote operations is obvious.
Speaker 1:When it comes to more traditional segments, like with waterborne mobility and transport, the long-term business case is obvious. There's simply not enough crew to man the vessels that we would like to have on our waterways. So in order to facilitate widespread waterborne mobility, autonomous and remote operation is needed. The challenge right now is how to get there. There is an ecosystem driving towards that autonomous future, with companies like Haik and ourselves pushing forward. To move forward, we need to offer solutions at lower levels of autonomy that give clear return on investment, also short term.
Speaker 1:From Cebus side, the original business idea was to develop small electric urban ferries, but we realized along the way that developing those autonomy solutions only for one segment was too time consuming and not very scalable. So we did a pivot along the way. Although the name remains, we are a pure maritime autonomy provider that can offer solutions to many different segment types and also different levels of autonomy. We are, for example, now working with one of our owners, ginseng Green Tech in Singapore, to deploy solutions on harbour crafts that operate between the ships that call on the port of Singapore and shore to move goods and people between ship and shore.
Speaker 3:The service vessels in Singapore. I could imagine that the decision making for a startup for urban ferries is quite long compared to service branch, where it's privately owned businesses. Is that one reason of focusing on offshore service and on the bunkering in the harbour?
Speaker 1:Actually, a lot of this initiative in Singapore is driven from the authorities, so they have ambitions of decarbonising the harbour craft operations completely by 2030, focusing heavily on digitalization of that fleet, where autonomous and remote operation will be key Because, again, the availability of skilled crew is diminishing and customers we talked to they already fear how they will be able to operate their assets when the current crew go into retirement. On the crewing side is a key driver for autonomous operations.
Speaker 3:What are the other key drivers for the autonomous operations? Does safety play a role in there as well?
Speaker 1:Willingness to pay for safety alone is often very limited, so I would say safety is almost like an added benefit. The other key drivers that we are seeing is the decarbonization journey of maritime, which leads to more complex vessels and new technologies, meaning that the vessels become more complex to operate. Since the transition to zero carbon fuels is taking time, you need to focus on energy efficiency gains short term and they will also be needed later, since zero carbon fuels will be expensive. So, both for electric vessels, due to range considerations, and for the decarbonization, the energy optimization technologies like weather, optimal routing, wind sails, rotor sails, etc. They require a much more dynamic and active control of the vessel than just crossing the ocean in a straight line. This means that you need an active and proficient crew. With increasing lack of crew, decarbonisation journey becomes more challenging and we believe technology and autonomy technology is also a key to bridge that gap.
Speaker 3:Dual use of technology has speeded up the market development. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Speaker 1:We've seen through the recent developments in the global geopolitical situation that the need for new technologies in the defence sector is growing and the traditional processes of acquisition within that space are too time-consuming for the needs that we have now, which is pushing the armed forces towards what we call dual use, meaning taking technologies and solutions developed for civilian use and putting them into use in the defense space. Autonomy is, of course, a hot topic in that context, I think largely driven by recent experience from the conflict in Ukraine, where autonomous technologies, flying vehicles and waterborne vehicles have been key in that conflict. So, as a technology company providing maritime autonomy solutions, we see this as a great market opportunity for our solutions and also an area where we can contribute to the security of Europe.
Speaker 3:It's the deficit of crew, but also the need for upskilling or reskilling the existing crew because of the vehicles having a lot of new technology that drives autonomy and the two other were.
Speaker 1:Well, the third one was really the need for dual-use technologies. A fourth one is the drive for increasing waterborne mobility. The original business idea for Zeebus was to revitalize the urban waterways. That need is still there, although it takes time to realize a whole new mobility mode. We still have a strong belief in this, what we like to call the urban shortcut networks, where it's kind of like a subway system on water right With a fleet of small electric self-driving ferries, you know, crisscrossing the urban waterways to move people across and along the waterways. It's a very compelling and also cost-effective mobility mode compared to building permanent infrastructure like roads, with tunnels and bridges, and also a resilient mobility mode in terms of dealing with environmental changes and flexible in terms of being able to change docking locations and capacity both through the day, through the seasons and over time due to changes, for example, in demography. That driver, which was the original business idea behind zbus, is still there, but maybe not the most prominent one for us right now.
Speaker 3:Eivind, could you share the founding story from start, from Seabus with the key milestones up to where you are now?
Speaker 1:It all started, really, with the decades of research on maritime automation and autonomy at NTNU. So the original inventor was Professor Egil Eida at the Department of Electronic Systems, because the municipality in Trondheim were planning a bridge that would cut the old boats off from their harbour and he didn't like that idea. So he came up with the proposal let's replace that bridge with an electric autonomous ferry instead. And with that was the idea of the first autonomous ferry prototype, the MilliAmpere 1 Born, A collaborative effort within NTNU within departments of marine technology, engineering, cybernetics, electronic systems and design. The idea was born to build a commercial spinoff. The business idea was to revitalize urban waterways. Professional management was recruited from industry to lead the company, including then myself, coming from DNV, to be a CTO.
Speaker 1:We then managed to launch the MilliAmpere 2 in a semi-commercial operation as a free service for citizens in Trondheim 2022. And then, building on that experience, we launched the MF Estelle, so named after the Swedish princess, in the city center of Stockholm, together with one of our owners, Torghatten. So they are a major Norwegian ferry operator set up to move people right in the city center of Stockholm, creating a shortcut across one of the many lakes there, and by that time we had done the pivot from being a mobility company that was the original idea to becoming a pure play autonomy technology company, and this is also the business model that we have going forward. We want to be the technology provider that enables shipbuilders, designers and system integrators to introduce autonomy into their assets. One great example is with our friends in Hike. We're established about the same time and also with the same vision, but we are now cooperating and putting Zeebus Autonomy on board the electric ferry from Hike Now a common vision of putting one of these on the water in Singapore next year.
Speaker 3:That's really combining the strengths of the two companies.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting story Hike from the Eker system with a design and boat building perspective and Zeebus coming from the university with an autonomy technology perspective. Both with the same original vision perspective, and Zeebus coming from the university with an autonomy technology perspective, both with the same original vision but then pivoting in different directions to become complementary to cooperate on a full autonomous electric ferry.
Speaker 3:I remember the first time when meeting Haik and Zeebus. It was when SAMS was leading the project called Zavas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely now. I think Zavas was a good example of how we can take at least partially competing companies, but cooperating to create the common market.
Speaker 3:When creating new markets and new opportunities to develop technique but also apply new technique. The public-private partnerships is often a good way forward in there. So you have some experience from different countries how the public-private partnerships is often a good way forward in there. So you have some experience from different countries how the public-private partnership works in regulation and also in financing projects.
Speaker 1:We've had great cooperation so far with Norwegian maritime authorities, swedish maritime and port authorities. The MPA in Singapore, regulations around autonomy is still very much in the air, although it is maturing. We are waiting for IMO to come up with their mass rules, which I think will be important when it's kind of setting the standard for international waters. Our projects so far still have conventional manning on board. There is a captain on board who is responsible for the operation and that can intervene if needed. This means that from a regulatory point of view there is no major change. Of course. The second we want to move that captain on shore or replace the captain with another type of competence, for example just a safety host that does not have a captain's certificate. Then you need to go through a process and to get those exceptions in place, and I think that's the key.
Speaker 3:When you want to introduce kind of higher levels of autonomy, you need to do it through many small steps what have been the the most interesting learnings when actually running and operating with torghat and the estelle ferry in stockholm and we see that.
Speaker 1:You know the. The design of the ferry itself and the mechanical components, also on the key side, makes a big difference when you want to have continuous operation. Building something that works over time and can take the wear and tear in continuous use is challenging. Software is quite compelling. It doesn't wear and tear in the same way. Many of the key challenges we've faced have been more on the physical side, for example, on the automatic mooring mechanism and also facing challenges with something basic like the 5G coverage across the lake. The autonomy technology that we provide, of course, is a key part of enabling autonomous operation, but there's so many other pieces that need to be in place for the full mobility system to work properly over time.
Speaker 3:What are the questions that you get from the big public, the people who don't come from tech or who don't come from maritime? What are they curious about?
Speaker 1:They enjoy the ride and we get very little questions regarding the autonomy technology itself. As long as it feels safe and it behaves in a kind of predictable way, people seem to adopt that idea very quickly.
Speaker 3:Eivind, you just recently took a double role in the fast-growing scale-up of Zebas. You are not only the CTO, you're also the CEO. Tell me a little bit how the leadership journey on that one is.
Speaker 1:I'm very much enjoying it. I have a big heart for Zeebus and our mission can help make the strategic decisions, have great backing from the Zeebus team and also a bunch of people extremely talented that keep on challenging me, but that's the way it should be.
Speaker 3:How do you foster collaboration and innovation in a company filled with very skilled people?
Speaker 1:We have a very flat structure. Everyone speaks to everyone, and we're trying to foster, basically, a culture of dialogue and communication where no one has their own turf. I think that's really a key for cooperation Working in small teams that continuously change based on what we need to do, and also, of course, building teams that are cross-functional. I think that's maybe the key to drive innovation, but we are now very much in an outgoing phase, where we are talking to a lot of different customers in different regions of the world, in different vessel segments, to learn about their challenges and finding out how do we fit our technology and solutions to their problems. Feeding that into these small teams enables us to move very fast.
Speaker 3:Eivind, what's your autonomy confession?
Speaker 1:That sounds dramatic, huh.
Speaker 3:My confession.
Speaker 1:I used to say that hardware beats software. Of course we mainly work with software in Zeebus, but you really need to get your hardware right. So if you design and build a vessel that is not suitable for its operation, you won't be able to make it suitable through software, its operation, you won't be able to make it suitable through software. So get your hardware right, get your vessel, design your choice of sensors, of compute, of propulsion and interfaces. You know, call it a confession, since I mean, we are a software driven company but we will be beat by hardware if we don't get that right.
Speaker 3:Good. And then I heard a little story about a professor and you.
Speaker 1:I also was then offered an adjunct professor position at the Department of Marine Technology, where I also did my master's and PhD, so I ended up now teaching a course on maritime autonomy. So from my kind of sideways transition from assurance into working with maritime autonomy, I'm also teaching a course on it, which of course, is a great fit with at least the CTO hat in Zeebus and also a great place to recruit talent for the company.
Speaker 3:You have been listening to a conversation with Øyvind Smoggyli, cto and CEO of Zeebus, about autonomous technology in maritime.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:To our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in. Join us again for the next episode of the Autonomy Journals brought to you by SAMS, the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Autonomous Mobility and Transport Systems. Autonomy In Norway we do it.
Speaker 3:We are looking forward to sharing the next episode with you. If you like the sound of this, please subscribe to the podcast and follow the Autonomy Journals on Spotify and other channels. We'd love to hear from you. Tell us what you'd love to hear more about around autonomy, because in Norway we do it.