The Autonomy Journals
The Autonomy Journals showcase leading voices, sharing insights, learnings, lessons and perhaps some confessions from the Autonomy Journey in transport and mobility.
SAMS, a private, non-profit innovation cluster for sustainable, autonomous mobility solutions, host the podcast.
The Autonomy Journals
Eye Contact with Robots: The Human Side of Driverless Tech, Laura Herzig from Beta Mobility
Norway's approach to autonomous mobility innovation is driven by curiosity rather than risk-taking, with its harsh winter climate providing the perfect testing environment for developing robust autonomous systems.
• Beta Mobility bridges the gap between startups and established public institutions in the transport sector
• Norway's challenging winter conditions create essential "edge cases" for testing autonomous vehicles
• The broad testing framework in Norway allows for experimentation with various vehicles and use cases
• Transferring costs from private car ownership to public autonomous services remains a key challenge
• Creating compelling mobility experiences is crucial to encourage people to abandon car ownership
• Public transport operators like Ruter are leading autonomous vehicle implementation efforts
• The loss of human communication in traffic (eye contact, gestures) will need technological solutions
• Norway can build an industry around autonomous technology services despite not manufacturing vehicles
• Getting "wheels on the ground" with diverse use cases is essential for advancing autonomous mobility
Autonomy: In Norway we do it. If you like the sound of this, please subscribe to the podcast and follow the Autonomy Journals on Spotify and other channels. We'd love to hear from you. Tell us what you'd love to hear more about around autonomy, because in Norway we do it.
The Autonomy Journals showcase leading voices, sharing insights, learnings, lessons and perhaps some confessions from the Autonomy Journey in transport and mobility.
Subscribe to the Autonomy Journals and join us next time as we continue exploring how Norway leads the way in autonomous mobility solutions. Because in Norway, we do it.
SAMS is a private, non-profit innovation cluster for sustainable, autonomous mobility solutions and the host of the podcast.
I don't think it's about risk. I think it's about curiosity. I perceive the public sector in Norway, but also the people living here, as more curious when it comes to figuring out how we can use new stuff.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Autonomy Journals podcast brought to you by SAMS, the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Autonomous Mobility and Transport Systems. Autonomy In Norway we do it. We are your hosts, eja and Aril.
Speaker 3:I'm leading the Norwegian innovation cluster for sustainable autonomous mobility systems.
Speaker 2:And I'm the founder of a small company in the mobility space, Kobra.
Speaker 3:The Autonomy Journals is aimed at inviting you into the autonomous universe of new ideas, innovation, great progress and feedback.
Speaker 2:Translating visions and complexities. One interesting conversation at a time, and we'll offer links and resources to autonomy sites and news in the credits. My guest today is Laura Herzig from Beta Mobility, where she's a partner. Hello, arit.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2:Why don't you first start by explaining your role at Beta?
Speaker 1:I'm a partner at Beta Mobility. We are an industry-specific advisory focusing on the transformation in the mobility sector, with a focus on new mobility solutions. We are a startup and we're based out of Oslo and Copenhagen and we kind of combine different backgrounds academic backgrounds, from urbanism to engineering to business in a very hands-on, operational way.
Speaker 2:Can you share maybe a couple of projects or a couple of customers?
Speaker 1:We love to work with both the small ones and the bigger ones, so, let's say, small micro mobility players that want to get into Norway and find a way to market. That's something we would do, and at the same time, we work with the very well-established public institutions, such as private transport players Ruta Columbus and the likes, but also the regulatory authorities Staten, zweivesen, the road authorities here in Norway or municipalities.
Speaker 2:So you like to bridge this divide a little bit, because there's a big difference between those institutional players and startups.
Speaker 1:When we move into this new mobility system thinking, you need to understand how a startup works and how they are put up and put together operational wise, but also incentive wise and economically, in order to create an ecosystem where they can plug into.
Speaker 2:What's your path to the sector of mobility?
Speaker 1:So I have a background from economy and sustainability and quite quickly I figured out one of the spaces where those two sections meet is within transportation. How can we change the way we work with transportation in order to create something that's more sustainable and increases the quality of life of people? So when electrification started in Norway, that was one of the first topics that I got to work with the electrification of public transport fleets and then later on, when my comorbidity was new and came to our cities, I was involved in the regulatory environment, the way we would incorporate it into our public transport systems, and then from there it kind of naturally continued into the space of autonomy, and that's what I've been working on the past two to three years.
Speaker 2:We have so many EVs in Norway electric vehicles that now there are almost no ICE vehicles being sold in Norway anymore. Right, it's not quite as well known that also the buses are electric. That's quite an example of scaling right, because autonomy it's not scaled yet. But is that what you're working for now, scaling autonomy?
Speaker 1:It's a bit similar to when digitalization came around, right, first thing we did was basically putting electricity to paper and to me, electrification is a little bit in the same corner because it was a technological disruption but in a way we just changed one box with another, one vehicle with another vehicle and we put electricity behind it. Right, what's happening in autonomy? And that's what fascinates me. But again, it's not about the technology. It's more the kind of jump that we do from the first wave of digitalization towards something that's clearly disruptive by its nature, because it goes to the core of the way we move, and I think that's that's what I want to work with the kind of real disruption in the transportation system, with the potential to actually not only change the nature of the box, the car, car out there, but the way the car is used and the place it gets in our cities and the way people move around.
Speaker 2:So would you describe the way you envision people moving using autonomy?
Speaker 1:That's the interesting part of it, right, people have been to the US and they've used the Waymo's and the likes and they drive around and they come back with this big realization of like, oh, this is is really working, and that's great because, yeah, seeing is believing. The question of what use cases do we want to apply this to is a way broader and way more important one, and I really like, or enjoy, seeing that we in europe are heading more towards public transport at the core kind of approach, because I do believe that our both environmental focus, the way we design cities, the way we live, the way we go shopping, the way we move is very different from the US and requires a way more nuanced approach to forming out those use cases.
Speaker 2:What do you see as like the major obstacles? Because, like you say, people travel over to the US and they sit in the waymo taxis and they film with their cell phone and they post it on linkedin and they're wow, this is right around the corner I mean, if you, if you talk about mobility, there's always about six pillars that need to be solved in order for something to work, and those are also the barriers.
Speaker 1:The one is, of course, the regulatory side of things, but for me it doesn't start with regulations. But to me, the big risk in Europe is that we try to go use case for use case and let regulations address each use case before we actually, in a broader sense, get an agreement about what do we want this to solve for us and then let people solve it, and I think that would be a great approach, and I think in Norway we have a tendency to think that way and to be that way, and I really hope that we continue to have the courage to act accordingly as we have so far, in my opinion, because we have this very broad testing framework regulation that allows for a lot.
Speaker 2:Here in Norway.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So actually Norway is a pretty good place to test autonomous technology, because I would imagine it as a difficult place. I mean we have snow, we have cold weather, we have different small tight roads some places and we have a lot of hinterland, as they say. So I would imagine it's a difficult place, but it's not.
Speaker 1:It is, and that's why I love it. Good. We have edge cases for half a year, which is hard. Winter conditions, a lot of snow, icy roads that's our norm. That's four months a year in Norway, right? What we have in addition to that is an urban environment, so we have cities where people also, in winter, walk and cycle, and you have that in a snow, icy environment. How do people move in snow? From a car perspective, from an av perspective, we do behave erratical when snow comes around, right, absolutely, because you, all of a sudden, you would walk even me with my baby stroller, I would walk on the street because the the sidewalk is blocked or icy or there's piles of snow and you can't go around right yeah, the surface is really important here during the winter time absolutely is a norwegian environment, that where people are willing to take the risk of trying something new.
Speaker 2:That's not my impression, but maybe you're, as not a norwegian, maybe you see it differently I don't think it's about risk.
Speaker 1:I think it's about curiosity. Yeah, I perceive the public sector in norway, but also the people living here, as more curious when it comes to figuring out how we can use new stuff in a way that is actually beneficial to um, to the way live, and so we're quite early out with the electrification of, also public transport vehicles. There's definitely a certain level of curiosity and courage involved.
Speaker 2:With your background in both economics and sustainability. I have one question that I've always wondered about Self-driving bus shared replacing private car ownership. How do we solve the transfer of costs from households that pay for a private car to something that probably will be a public service, either privately run or at least in some way subsidized by municipalities? Is that possible? I use so much of my money on my car and then suddenly I'm going to sell it and just buy that service from a public transport provider. Is it possible to imagine that that public transport provider has the investment power to deliver that service? How do we do that?
Speaker 1:I think we need a lot of good and smart people to solve that question, but I do think it is possible, because to look more into the business model and for the service, thereby being more incentivized, to do something that actually makes you want to sell your car because it's such a convincing offering and it's way less expensive than the alternative. But that also requires some sort of dynamics in the market that allow those players to operate in that way, some sort of dynamics in the market that allow those players to operate in that way, and that will not be seen before we actually move from publicly funded pilot projects into something that's more of a scalable and real service.
Speaker 2:You could imagine like a large employer offering a pickup service instead of parking spots.
Speaker 1:For example.
Speaker 2:I think that's and at some point the price is low enough because you don't have to have the driver, for example.
Speaker 1:For example.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty tough adversary. I mean the marketing around it and the whole value chain about being in the showroom and feeling like you really want a car and all that stuff is really strong. It takes a lot of changing.
Speaker 1:It's not just about the technology, but it's also about how do we shape city environments in order to make the service attractive. And to me personally, living in Oslo and using the bike quite frequently taking the car into the city center is I'm stressed out, I don't know where to park, what apps do I need to park? And it's a very chill and easy experience using the bike. That's exactly where you want to be, with all the little tweaks and parts that you can influence as a municipality or road authority. That's what you want to achieve and that makes you change behavior, because you don't want to be stressed out going to work and I don't really care about what vehicle I use getting there, but I do care about the experience.
Speaker 2:Is it possible for startups in Norway to survive and to try out new stuff?
Speaker 1:Technological disruption and innovation. The big hope for every country should be to foster new businesses around that right. I mean, in Norway we don't have a car industry, so we will not be at the forefront when it comes to developing the cars or the EV technology. But, similar to electrification, where we saw a big uprise of charging infrastructure providers and everything around the technology, we should also aim and figure out for us here in Norway what kind of businesses do we want to be established around AV technology and that could solve parts of the things that need solving in order for that to function out here, there is a role for startups and new businesses to play in order to create the environment that we need for those new vehicles to function in the way we want them to. I don't think we're there yet. No, I think we need a different mindset and definitely a look into how do we fund or possibly fund those kind of businesses in the future in order for them to survive.
Speaker 2:And possibly we're at a geopolitical position where there might be a little bit of a reset of how people think regarding building up industry in our own country these days.
Speaker 1:For sure, and I think that's a very legitimate question to ask and to throw into the game right, if we want this to happen on our streets, then again, why do we want it? Part of it is definitely there because we want people to move differently, but part of it is also because we want an industry and businesses to flourish around it.
Speaker 2:You touched on regulations earlier. What's necessary?
Speaker 1:We should look into what's actually necessary to regulate versus what can we be more reactive about? Right, because there are certain things, as we discussed earlier. There are certain decisions to be made about how we want the technology to work in our streets, and those decisions, in order to become reality, need some regulatory framing and direction in order for those players to establish themselves in the way we want them to. Do we want Robotexes? Do we want public transport, et cetera. But then there's definitely parts which do not need upfront proactive regulation, because you can be more reactive if you're confident in the kind of structures in place and that they allow you to be reactive. And I think that's the big fear here, right, that we feel like we need to be very proactive on everything because we're scared we might not be in a position to adjust and modify as we move along, because that requires some sort of collaboration that is not yet in place and it can't because we don't have those players in place either, right. So I'm not saying we're laid out. I'm rather saying that we are now, for the first time, looking into something that is potentially not just a pilot project but a scalable real service out there, and in that transition. We do need regulations to follow both the proactive and the reactive part of it.
Speaker 1:You pointed to the very broad testing framework that we have in place. I think that's a great start and in a way that allows for much, much more, and it should be an attractive framework for international players to come to Norway and test things out, because it allows for a variety of different vehicles and a variety of different use cases, and that's great and we should hold on to that. But at the same time, it shouldn't be a comfort cushion to relax upon, which I'm not saying that it is because we just need this to be used as a starting point in order to learn how to make this into something more permanent. It's a starting point and we should use that in order to get to something more permanent that puts a strong, clear signal out in the market about what players are allowed to do here, how long, if it's commercial or not, in order for them to consider establishing services on our streets that are costly to begin with.
Speaker 2:At the moment, my impression is that Rüther is charging ahead and thumbs up for that. Is this strategy established further up?
Speaker 1:So I believe that, both Rüther, but also Columbus and Stavanger, they are providing better insights into possible use cases that then again are kind of the foundation for any regulatory discussion that we should have, because not knowing what it is you need to regulate is the most tricky and difficult situation to be in for any nation, right.
Speaker 2:We have a tradition for certain public-private partnerships in Norway. That's, I guess, been a success. How do you see that put to use for this sector?
Speaker 1:There's a different level here that is required in order to make that technology happen right. It's not only based on dialogue, but it's actually based on collaboration. Av-based vehicles are so local Like everything that needs to happen is so deeply interlinked with the way we design and form our streets and want people to move, that it requires some sort of public involvement also when it comes to the more operational side of things.
Speaker 2:What could we get wrong in developing these things going forward?
Speaker 1:A lot.
Speaker 2:I'm also a little bit concerned that private car producers are pushing the technology much faster than public transport organizations or municipalities or countries are even able to absorb. And then suddenly these driver safety-based applications will be. It'll be like impossible to say no to these because they improve driver safety based applications will be. It'll be like impossible to say no to these because they improve driver safety. And then suddenly we have a model we didn't want on our streets. Am I justified in that fear, or should I just leave it?
Speaker 1:Yes and no. No, I think that the fear is definitely correct because that's where we come from, that what we experience with the car right. So I think that's the core of what you're saying is basically, how can we introduce that new technology in a way that never makes you experience this in a private vehicle setting right, because if you know avs only in a shared context, kind of like you do with a bus right, you would never question that being the nature of the service that you experience. But if you come from a different point, where it's firstly in your private car and then it's taken away from you, this is going to be a very, very hard fight to win.
Speaker 2:And at the same time, the private car is getting nicer and nicer, cheaper and cheaper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's exactly the yeah, but yeah, maybe you're right, because my argument would be like it's not cheap to make, but of course, costs will go down eventually and it will become more of an affordable technology after all. You have a point there, and that's underlying the importance of us finding a direction rather quicker than later.
Speaker 1:And, like you say, maybe not spend too much time on regulation, but try to get this going in a way that we want it to look, so that we can start maturing the market and start getting people to think in this way, yeah, and I think everything that ruta and the likes, as you mentioned, have done shows how incredibly, incredibly important it is to get wheels on the ground and start testing and that's what we do, of course, and we've done that for a couple of years now but I think we need more of that and more of different use cases in order to fully grasp both the opportunities and the risk entailed.
Speaker 2:Are there any use cases you would like to see going forward Tested? I mean, if you put on your vision glasses or something, my vision glasses For me.
Speaker 1:Personally. I want the autonomous ferry from Farnaby to Oslo.
Speaker 2:That would be nice.
Speaker 1:That would be nice.
Speaker 2:But does it have to be autonomous?
Speaker 1:If you look at the cost picture behind it, then apparently it has to be autonomous in order to make economic sense.
Speaker 2:What's next for Beta Mobility and for you, Laura.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's also a brilliant question not too brilliant, easy to ask, hard to answer, exactly because now I think I think everything we described and discussed in this podcast, that's that's what we're passionate about and that's what we want to do, right, but not only in the av space, but that's that's where I love to go back to my little team and and continue work that we do, because it's about solving all the different parts of the puzzle to make not only autonomous mobility but new mobility solutions, sustainable mobility solutions. Work out there together with the cities and the operators.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, good operators okay, good, good, we always ask our guests if they have an autonomy confession to make, if they have, like, a fun fact or something from your career or something that's, you know, just like a twist at the end of our session. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:um, I love working in that space and people just assume that you're a very early adapter when it comes to technologies overall because you seem like an enthusiast when it comes to new technologies and I'm actually a very late adapter when it comes to all sorts of technologies and one thought that I had when I bicycled down here was that I do trust the technology, but I do still even me who knows what the vehicles are capable of and everything. I don't know how to translate the kind of interaction that I have frequently with every car driving by. I look into the driver's eyes have you seen me? Have you not seen me? It's a fun personal reflection that you, even though you're working towards that future, you feel like I would miss that.
Speaker 2:I would miss that kind of confirmation that I'm getting frequently before crossing any roads that I will not be hit by car there's so much uh like information flow during traffic between just eye contact, facial impressions and everything that risks to being lost, so that's a really big thing. You could imagine something like emojis on the screen projected that make fake eye contact with each and every person in the area to see that they've been seen. But wow, there's so much interaction that's lost when a driver is gone.
Speaker 1:So we're going to have to rethink the whole traffic information flow I think there will definitely be some fun emojis on front of every av, like a bicycle popping up or like a thumbs up or like I've seen you you're safe you're safe you're not safe.
Speaker 2:I'm going ahead of you right now so maybe avs will be much more polite in traffic right I'm pretty sure they will I'm thinking maybe when I use my bicycle I'm much more polite in traffic. Right, I'm pretty sure they will. I'm thinking maybe when I use my bicycle I'm not as friendly in traffic as I am with a car Because I feel I have a privilege and I'm taking the biggest risk, so I go wherever the opening is. I think maybe like a computer will be nicer to me than an actual driver.
Speaker 1:So there's hope. So there's hope for that.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you for this conversation, laura.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for having me. It was great fun.
Speaker 2:Good, and thank you to the listeners for listening to our talk with Laura Hedzik, a partner at Beta Mobility. We've been talking about the use of Norway as an arena for testing self-driving, and we've been talking about regulations, private-public partnerships. I think we've covered a lot of interesting topics. We're optimists Can we say that Definitely but we're also realists and we're both cyclists, yeah apparently so Apparently, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:To our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in. Join us again for the next episode of the Autonomy Journals brought to you by SAMS, the Norwegian Innovation Cluster for Autonomous Mobility and Transport Systems. Autonomy In Norway we do it.
Speaker 3:We are looking forward to sharing the next episode with you. If you like the sound of this, please subscribe to the podcast and follow the Autonomy Journals on Spotify and other channels. We'd love to hear from you. Tell us what you'd love to hear more about around autonomy, because in Norway we do it.