Ep#7 - Interview with Naomi Anderson

Episode Summary

On this episode of The Australian Business Show, Naomi Anderson joins Nick Stehr to talk about Naomi’s interest in aged care, the story behind Aged Care Ready and Caring Clothing, the good and the bad in the industry, ensuring high standards of care in facilities, the slow uptake of technology, the benefits of adaptive clothing, and providing care in patients’ homes.

Naomi is a Registered Nurse and the Managing Director of Aged Care Ready and Caring Clothing. She has considerable experience in management of Aged Care Facilities and has an intimate understanding of the internal workings of facilities, along with a thorough understanding of their clients’ needs.

Naomi has a passion for advocacy and thrives on being able to assist clients in finding the best provider for their individual needs.

Timestamp Segments

·       [01:46] Naomi’s background.

·       [02:39] Getting into aged care.

·       [03:35] Cultural treatment of elders.

·       [05:46] Aged Care Ready.

·       [08:18] The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

·       [11:48] What Aged Care Ready does.

·       [13:25] Finding providers.

·       [15:40] Slow adoption of technology.

·       [19:41] Building a preventative budget.

·       [23:25] Caring Clothing.

·       [27:16] Function and fashion.

·       [29:40] What’s most important to Naomi?

·       [32:25] The advantages of adaptive clothing.

·       [33:29] Caring for somebody in their own home.

·       [39:24] Funding.

Notable Quotes

·       “The Australian culture is heavily influenced by the way that we do treat our elders.”

·       “A lot of families probably don’t want to invest in brand-new clothing once somebody is in residential aged care.”

·       “If somebody has the means to pay for it, then they should.”

Relevant Links

Naomi Anderson.

agedcareready.com.au.

www.caringclothing.com.au.

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Transcript

[00:01] Nick Stehr: So, it's a fact of life that we will age. We tend to be living longer these days with modern medicine and science, but the fact remains that our life is rich with stories, experiences, pain, and joy, and as we age, the stories and experiences can provide us with invaluable advice and learnings, if we're open to it. Taking the time to sit and converse with someone in our aged care community can be both enlightening and entertaining. This is one of the many things I love about the aged care industry. The industry is broad, varied, and can be incredibly rewarding. It's also an industry ripe for disruption. Our next guest is a fierce defender of some of our most vulnerable Australians. She's a woman with exceptionally high value set, one of the best networkers I have ever met, and she's created a business that aligns with her values, positively impacting lives, and driving much-needed disruption in the industry.

[01:03] Welcome to the Australian Business Show. In today's swiftly evolving commercial landscape, opportunity and challenge abound. It's imperative to stay on the cutting edge, emulating the strategies of the most influential business leaders and entrepreneurs. Join our exclusive network as we unite with the world's elite. Together, we'll uncover their success stories, gain fresh perspectives on market trends, and learn the innovative tactics they employ to propel their companies to the forefront of success. Now, here's your host, Nick Stehr.

[01:37] Nick: Hi, Naomi. Welcome. Thanks for being on the show. How are you?

[01:39] Naomi Anderson: I'm good. I'm good. Thank you, so much, for having me.

[01:42] Nick: I've been really looking forward to this conversation. It's been a little while in the planning for us, but here we are. I did a little bit of stalking of you, like we do before getting into these, and you've been heavily based in care, across the spectrum of care, I guess, is what I've found. Started out as a registered nurse, originally in the acute sector in hospitals, and even some surgical stuff.

[02:05] Naomi: Yes. So, overall, I've spent 19 years in aged care, and that was from the beginning of my degree. So, I did start in aged care, as a carer, and then obviously, built from there, but during my grad year, and a couple of years after that, I was in the acute system while still working in the aged care system, and worked in the acute wards and the medical surgical wards, and then did anesthetics and recovery, as well, for a little bit. So, pretty different from aged care, but I guess something just kept calling me back into that field.

[02:39] Nick: That was about 2007, if the timeline is right, I think, when you moved into aged care, and it actually looks like you bounced back and forth a little bit, then you came back into acute, but really looking at your timeline, you keep getting drawn back to the aged care sector for some reason. Why is that?

[02:57 Naomi: I think because of my family makeup, I consider myself a bit of an old soul. So, I'm youngest, by far, of four kids. The only daughter, as well. So, I was always raised around older people, and I guess that's probably why I kept being drawn back to older people myself. I just love the stories that older people share, and they have so much wisdom and experience that we can learn from, that often goes unheard of, because I guess from a societal point of view, they are pushed to the side a little bit, I guess.

[03:35] Nick: Do you think that's a cultural problem in Australia, or do you think that's a problem? I mean, do you have, outside of Australia, with aged care?

[03:43] Naomi: Not outside of Australia, directly, from a career standpoint, but I do think the Australian culture is heavily influenced by the way that we do treat our elders, but I do have a Polish background, and I know from a cultural perspective, that a lot of other cultures also put their elders in very high regard, and in European countries, or even Asian countries, they're reluctant to put their loved ones in aged care, or they just don't have the same systems that we do. So, yeah, I do think it is an Australian cultural perspective. I couldn't tell you why that is, though.

[04:22] Nick: Yeah. I've often wondered about the same thing, being in the industry now for so long. Often when you're in the facilities, a lot of the residents there are really hungry to engage to you, and some of the stories are incredible. I got called into a room by a resident one time. He thought I was one of the doctors there, and when I said I wasn't, he was asking me “am I going to die?” I said, “I don't know. I’m not a doctor,” but he was saying it to me tongue in cheek, but he then went on to tell me about his incredible story as a Holocaust survivor, and just to sit with him for that 10/15 minutes was phenomenal, to listen to his story.

[05:00] Naomi: And that's all it takes. It just takes a few minutes, and like you said, all they want is somebody to speak to them, just acknowledge them, and validate their existence, I guess, and I have looked after some amazing people that, by all intents and purposes, when they were younger, were the top of their field, highly intelligent people, and I guess, aged care doesn't discriminate. Once you're elderly, you’re just put in the same basket as everybody else, but I have looked after veterans, Holocaust survivors, like you mentioned, as well, people who created incredible medical devices that we still use today, and unfortunately, that just isn't recognized towards the end of their lives.

[05:46] Nick: Yeah. Aged Care Ready. So, that's your business at the moment. There's a couple there, and I'll circle back to that, but Aged Care Ready, did you start that company?

[05:56] Naomi: Sort of. I had the idea quite a few years ago, after a couple of experiences, and being a nurse and new to the world of business, I didn't really know where to start, and actually, I posted on a Women's Business Forum, just asking “where do you start with this? I've got this nursing background. This is what I want to do. I don't know where to go from here,” and that's actually where I met my first business partner. She had already seen the gap in the market, but from a property perspective. So, she's a buyer's agent, and so she had started the company where she'd had someone employed to find facilities for families, but that didn't work out, and I think that was really because that person was an employee. They weren't driven to build a business themselves. So, the business laid dormant for a couple of years before I stepped in, and I guess it was probably just a case of serendipity that I'd had that idea, it was available, and I stepped into that, and she was really my first mentor.

But in terms of why I actually started the business, there was a number of things that led up to that, and I guess it really stemmed from, for the first 29 years of my life, I lived in some form of abusive relationship, whether that was in my family home or my marital home, and amongst that, as well, I had experienced a lady who was placed in an aged care facility where I was a care manager, or one of the key managers, despite my protest, saying that the facility doesn't have the resources to care for her, and that she needed to be placed somewhere else that was able to care for her, and I was essentially told that, “well, we need to fill this bed to be able to pay your wage,” and unfortunately, that lady had a very traumatic fall the same day, and passed away from those injuries within a couple of days after that, and it was really after that point, that some need or hunger to become a fierce defender of the people that are most vulnerable, and nearly 10 years on, that drive is even more prevalent in my life.

[08:18] Nick: A lot to unpack in that, but we've seen the Royal Commission into aged care, and I don't know about you, but having been around the industry for as long as I have, I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, I guess, and I think the media beat-up on the industry was unjustified, and let me just clarify what I mean by that, because I'm not saying that there weren’t some horrific stories that needed and should have been investigated. Any perpetrators of anything other than the best quality of care for these vulnerable Australians should be pursued to the full extent of the law, but if you were the average punter watching the media, you would have thought that the whole industry was that way, that if you put your loved one into a residential aged care facility, they're going to be abused, assaulted, ignored, and I just don't believe that to be the case. I think, those were the exception, not the rule, but it's a crying shame because I think our industry generally does a good job. There's always opportunity for improvement, and when you're talking about caring for people, that's an incredibly difficult task, especially in a multicultural society, like we have, when people have so many different needs and expectations. How did you read that period of time for aged care, and what did you take away from it?

[09:39] Naomi: Yeah, like you said, that was really the exception to the rule, and over the span of my career, I have found more homes and more providers to be empathetic, compassionate, and provide a very high-quality level of care than those that don't. I have seen some horrible things in aged care that, I would understand why those types of things were put in the Royal Commission report and their recommendations, but as a whole, the number of facilities that I've seen, and I've seen 1000s of them, provide an absolutely amazing standard of care, some more than others, and especially if they're on the front foot with technology, innovation. Those types of things really make it more transparent to ensure that everything is above board and families understand the type of care that their loved one is getting, always been prepared for an accreditation or an unannounced audit. I love that, out of that, we actually got these unannounced accreditations, as well. So, facilities are always on guard, and they're always accountable.

[10:48] Nick: That, to me, seems like one of the single best outcomes, unannounced accreditation visits, because preannounced is just about getting ready for it, or potentially those that are doing the wrong thing. Those that are doing the right thing, would be throwing the doors open to say, “come any time. We do the right thing, and that’s what we pride ourselves on.”

[11:08] Naomi: I know, before that point, when I was working within aged care, still on the floor, there was this premise, especially in some facilities, that they knew when an accreditation was coming up. So, they would change their staffing. They would change the way that a shift even runs and prepped their staff and residents, and also family members, on how to answer questions, and I think that, by making this system, where they could come at any time, is more reflective of what our facilities run like on a day-to-day basis, and that's great. That's what we want at the end of the day.

[11:47] Nick: Yeah, absolutely. Aged Care Ready. Really love the name because I think it speaks to exactly that period of time where somebody's transitioning into full-time care. If you had to summarize what you do, in a couple of sentences, what would you say Aged Care Ready does?

[12:02] Naomi: So, we assist our elderly clients and their families navigating the aged care space, and it's not just about placement into residential aged care. It's also assisting families to keep their loved ones at home. So, that could mean that we're putting referrals into My Aged Care for funding, home care packages, or CHSP, Commonwealth Home Support Program, subsidies, and although we are known for placement, we do believe in keeping people in their own home for as long as possible, because that's where they want to be, essentially, and if they have the support to do that, and that’s safe to do that, then that's what we will do, but what makes us different is that we're nurses, ourselves, and between us, we've got well over 60 years of experience, and we are fiercely independent, as well, which means that we don't get paid by the provider. We do get paid by the person. So, the client or their family, because what we offer is an incredibly bespoke service. So, it all starts with coming out and actually meeting the client, doing our own clinical assessment on them, and getting to know them and what's important to them, having a family case conference, and then we do an incredible amount of due diligence and facility tours to make sure that we're finding the home that is most appropriate for their needs.

[13:25] Nick: How do you find the providers? I don’t mean, as in, “how do you find them?” but, they must like to look to create a relationship with you that, to say, “hey, we'd like you to strongly consider us or our facilities for any of your clients.” Do they canvas you? How does that relationship work?

[13:42] Naomi: It's interesting that you asked that question because, over the years, our relationships with providers have evolved. So, initially, they really, I guess, had their walls up. So, they didn't really understand what we did, and that was our job, to educate them that we're actually there to work with them, not against them, and although we're looking at the facility from, I guess, a critical analysis standpoint, we actually wanted to be able to build a relationship with them so that we had some accountability, and also an understanding of how they run. So, initially, they, I guess, kept us at arm's length, but as time went on, they understood what we did, and how well we actually facilitated a clinical approval, and an admission, things like that, because when we do our clinical assessments, we write that up in the form of a care plan or report, which is then handed to the facility to give them adequate information as to whether or not that person should be clinically approved for that home.

[14:46] Nick: We spoke about the cultural differences and different needs, and things. So, this sounds like there's quite a science, to be able to match a particular provider, or even down to a particular home, a new resident with one of your clients.

[15:01] Naomi: Absolutely. So, we know that people of different European backgrounds, especially, there are certain providers that we look at first. It doesn't mean that they’re necessarily the best match for that person, but we know that, culturally, they would be a good pick, and so we look at that provider first, and then expand from there, and also from a cultural perspective, we look after a number of clients from all walks of life. So, yes, most of them are Australian, Anglo backgrounds, but we do care for a very wide range of cultural backgrounds.

[15:39] Nick: Yeah, and you spoke before about the providers that are a bit more progressive, I guess, a bit more on the leading edge with adoption of technology. I’ve often been guilty of saying, “aged care by name. Aged care by nature.” Sometimes, it is a little bit slow to adapt, is what I've found. I think, there's so much opportunity for technology to further enhance what we do. I love the industry. I think the industry does, generally speaking, an amazing job, but I don't know that it, yet, really has taken advantage of the evolution of technology, be that your hard assets or AI, or whatever the case may be, as it evolves more and more today. What's your experience and your take on that?

[16:24] Naomi: Look, I think the uptake is slower than I would have anticipated, especially after COVID, and that's where we saw most of the uptake happen. Before that, because of the quality standards being updated in 2019, we saw more of a movement towards a homestyle model of care, and then obviously, within that COVID period, we went to more of a clinical, acute-based system, because we had to. So, on the other end of COVID, I found that providers went one of two ways. They went back to the homestyle model of care, which is great. We love that, as well, but then other providers went that way, and also then leaned on more innovative structures, especially with that high-tech AI system, as well, which I think, out of the two, I would definitely prefer the innovative process, and the reason being is because, like I said before, it makes things far more transparent. It puts a lot less emphasis on the time that nurses and carers have to dedicate towards paperwork and things like that, when they should actually be spending more time with the residents, rather than behind the desk.

[17:36] Nick: Why do you think it takes them so long to really adopt some of this new tech? I mean, I know of some providers that are really on the cutting edge. They want to be the ones that are first to market with some of the tech, and others that just stand back and wait, and watch, for some reason, and it's become a pretty competitive space now. There's power of choice. They're not all running at 100% occupancy, at the moment. So, people looking for a place in a home have got choice. Much more so. If they're all full, it's a little bit harder. You've just got to sometimes take what's on offer in the early stages, but I don't think that's the case at the moment. There seems to be a lot more choice out there. Wouldn't you want to be a provider that's seen as progressive, that's offering even better quality of care, or better accountability, or even, in terms of how the staff, what their working conditions are like? I find it both interesting and frustrating that the industry is a little bit slow to move and adopt some of this tech. There's a fear around it.

[18:41] Naomi: Yeah, and I think that fear stems from, one, the cost, and also the effort that goes into putting those things in place, especially if it's already an established building or an older building. I'm finding that the newly-built homes are more likely to uptake that type of tech, but I think, I guess, and this is a very big generalization, that aged care altogether has always been slow to uptake a lot of things, and I would say that, probably, the cost is the factor, but what I guess those providers don't necessarily understand is that it's an investment, not a cost, and it will make things a lot easier for their staff. It would probably be a really good marketing tool, as well, to be able to fill those rooms a lot easier, if they had something that was, I guess, worth marketing, above and beyond the quality of care that they already provide.

[19:41] Nick: Yeah. Cost is interesting to me, because as you say, whether it's a cost or it's an investment, you still have to find the cash, but the conversations that I'm having, we've even looked at, with one of our businesses, a change in the model of acquisition, trying to shift a little bit from CapEx to OpEx, and maybe we don't yet fully understand the way the flow of funds works and the budgeting works, or maybe the budgeting needs to shift. A great example of that is, many years ago, when I was in a different role, in sales, I was talking to an intensive care unit about reducing the risk and the incidence of pressure sores, but of course, it took money to buy these assets. They looked at me and they said, “Nick, I have a budget to deal with the pressure sores that I'm going to get. I don't have a budget that I can allocate towards buying these things to prevent them,” and I was just dumbfounded. This was a public, government-funded hospital, and to me, it's a budgeting issue. If we're saying, “well, we're going to get them. Let's deal with them when we get them,” to me, it's just totally the wrong approach, and I find it infuriating, to be perfectly honest.

[20:53] Naomi: There's limited foresight, unfortunately, and the constraints really are exactly that. They don't preempt building a budget that would prevent all of those clinical issues. Yeah, it's a challenging world, I guess, and historically, especially in the last few years, there's been such a focus on the appeal of the physical environments and making the home look more like a hotel than an aged care facility, which I mean, is great. A lot of people love that, but why not just take that one step further when they refurbish and invest in that high-tech that would ultimately prevent a lot of those things, or minimize the risk? Falls in residential aged care facilities, they often result in pretty serious injuries, whether that's fractured NOFs, head trauma, and things like that. So, why wouldn't you implement strategies to minimize the risk of that, or at least minimize the risk of the extent of the injuries?

[22:01] Nick: Yeah. Falls are a tough one, I know. Some of the research that we looked at, and all of the attention that falls get, and all of the investment that falls do get, we've had zero impact on the incidence and the rates of falls in our facilities, and now we have, and I understand why, because I would want it to, but we have single bedrooms, with the bathroom and a closed door, and the risk is that somebody falls in there, we don't know about it until it's too late, until somebody has died.

[22:30] Naomi: Sometimes, that can be over an hour, or longer, overnight, especially because at the moment, most facilities, they haven't implemented that tech, don’t have your floor sensors or your bed sensors, which are mats, essentially, which, in effect, are tripping hazards themselves, and a lot of the time, residents, especially those that lack insight, evade those, as well. So, they're putting themselves at greater risk, which is ironic, really.

[23:00] Nick: Yeah, and look, I guess the flip side to this is that the cost of tech comes down over time. I mean, look at what we carry around in our pocket now, these minicomputers that could virtually run the world, in our pocket. So, I guess it happens. Sometimes, it just takes longer than it probably should, in this industry, specifically. We're not known for being really innovative in our adoption and uptake of tech. So, you've recently started another, or bought another, business, too, called Caring Clothing. Tell us a little bit about that. With all of your spare time, you've got more businesses running now.

[23:35] Naomi: I'm lucky to have a good team around me, really. So, end of last year, beginning of this year, I purchased a company, like you said, called Caring Clothing, and it is a company that I had come across a number of times across the span of my career, when I was still working as a manager within aged care, and my paths had crossed with Serena, who is the original owner, a number of times as well, and she's probably one of the most beautiful people you'll ever meet. Unfortunately, she became unwell last year, which means that she needed to sell the business or close it down. So, when I saw that happening, I felt that it would be such a shame to let an amazing product business go to waste, essentially, because there's really nothing quite like the types of products that we manufacture and create.

So, the products are pieces of clothing that adapt to the person's need, which means that if somebody has limited range of movement in their shoulders, for example, the tops that we have open at the back, and it is much easier for somebody to dress and undress, and it minimizes the risk of injury, skin tears, bruising, whilst also keeping that person dignified, and when you're looking at somebody wearing these items of clothes, you don't actually know that they are adaptive, and it's not just tops. It's a full range of clothing, specifically targeted for those in our aged care community, and also our disability community, as well.

[25:14] Nick: We've spoken about technology before, but what's happening with design and fashion around this? I'm imagining and picturing the people that I've seen moving around in an aged care facility sometimes. Maybe fashion is not such an issue for them, but then maybe it is, but probably even more so with young people with a disability. We're getting better at inclusivity. I think it's getting better. We've got a long way to go. I think we've come a long way. So, we're seeing people, much better integration into society, and accessibility, and these sorts of things. So, what's happening around fashion for that area?

[25:50] Naomi: Yeah, look, fashion is ever evolving because trends come and go, and so, we're trying to keep up with what's acceptable in those fields. Obviously, those items are never going to be on the catwalk, and that's okay. They're more practical and modest, but it's not something that I would probably not wear. There have been times where I've modeled the items of clothing, as well, and a lot of people have said, “that looks really nice on you, and you couldn't even tell that was adaptive clothing.” I guess, where our biggest challenge has lied, is actually within the aged care space, because a lot of families probably don't want to invest in brand-new clothing once somebody is in residential aged care. So, they’re taking their own items of clothing, or they take on hand-me-downs, when our clothing is actually no more expensive than something that you would buy at a store, and that's probably where our biggest challenge lies, that families don't necessarily want to invest or spend additional money for maybe something that they don't understand how it works, and that's up to us to educate them, and that's really been quite a challenge, to get our name out there.

[27:05] Nick: Sounds sad, to me, because why do they not deserve? Yeah. So, that's another whole thing to unpack, but I just think that's a tragedy. I mean, you mentioned, it's not on the catwalk, maybe yet, because I wonder with, again, the way design’s going, awareness, why couldn’t be? I don't follow fashion that closely. I get told what I have to wear most of the time, which is probably, I put something on, I'm told, “you’re not wearing that.” I do see from time to time in the media, people with a disability, maybe they're an amputee or whatever, now walking the catwalk, and these things, so why not? Why couldn't it be? Why can't we marry function with fashion?

[27:49] Naomi: I guess, from a manufacturing standpoint, it can be really challenging, especially because when you're manufacturing, you have to consider all the color ways that you need to have out, plus all the sizing variations on top of that, and because we are size-inclusive, I guess it makes it really challenging to be able to create that many variants in such a small micro-business. It is something that eventually, I hope to bring it into place within our own business so that it is more adaptive towards the younger generations, as well, and I have all of these plans for export and getting investors on board, and things like that, but we have to start, I guess, at the bottom again, because the business was originally advertised as closing down, when I first purchased it.

So, I feel like we've been in a lot of damage control for the last few months, but it's definitely something that I would really want to strive for, within the next three to five years. It's just being able to get the capital to be able to do that, because manufacturing is super expensive, and then shipping and customs, and things like that. Bringing the items on shore, there's a significant cost in that. What I would ultimately love to do is have our items manufactured in Australia, but the challenge, again, there, is the amount of cost, because that would still be more than manufacturing overseas and shipping it over, which then has that flow-on effect as to how much we actually have to sell those items for, and at the end of the day, we want to make sure that it's affordable for our clients, so that they can have that dignity, especially in their later years.

[29:38] Nick: Yeah, fair enough. So, you've achieved a lot of success, really, with what you've done, and so much good for the community. You've got an amazing couple of businesses, at this point in your life. What's most important to you?

[29:50] Naomi: Oh, that's a good one. A number of things. I guess, it's that drive to provide people that dignity and that client-centered care. That would be one of my top priorities. As a business owner, having the freedom to be able to reinvest into those industries, but also care for my own family, and I guess, a big part of why I do what I do is really to make a difference, and to, I guess, stand up for the little guy, I think.

[30:23] Nick: Yeah. I love that, and we've spoken many times prior to this, and I think our values are very much aligned on that. One of my frustrations, and I get it, is trying to have these conversations with industry, because if you're supplying service as a product, then sometimes there's a fear that you're going to try and sell them something instead of going, “but what value can you add? How can you help me do what I do better?” and I get it, because there's probably a lot of businesses out there that are only interested, and we've all seen them, in getting that sale, and getting that product in there, and moving on. It's trying to find a way, and that's one of the reasons for even starting to put this podcast together, is to hopefully break down some of those barriers, to say, “hey, we've got some ideas that may help.” Now, if they don't, that's okay, as well, but we've walked away from opportunities in our business, where we cannot actually provide the solution that they're looking for.

It would be easy for us to just sell. One of my sayings is, we used to talk about good salespeople. “They could sell ice to Eskimos,” and I don't understand that because Eskimos don't need ice. They're bloody surrounded by it. So, let's not sell them something that they've already got, or that they don't really need. Let's find solutions that help enhance that quality of care that you spoke about. So, yeah, I feel very much the same way.

[31:51] Naomi: I think that goes back to our earlier conversation around the delayed uptake in tech, and although our clothing, particularly, isn't high-tech, like you would find in homes, with the different monitoring systems, AI, and that sort of thing, it still brings value to the end-user, which is the residents, obviously, but in different ways, and I still feel like the uptake is very slow, and the openness for education just isn't there at the moment, for a lot of providers.

[32:25] Nick: there must be an advantage, not just for the individual, but also for the carers that have got to dress them. If it's easier to put on, is there an advantage, in terms of, again, we spoke about working conditions, or the risk of postural stress injury, because you're having to move and lift in a certain way. If there's something that's easier to place on somebody, then there must be an advantage in that, as well.

[32:48] Naomi: Like you said, from a manual handling perspective, it's far easier to dress somebody who is in a hoist, for example, which I know is all your wheelhouse, but if you're dressing somebody who's in a hoist, having adaptive clothing is going to be far easier than if you had standard tracksuit pants, for example, which a lot of people wear in aged care. So, yes, a lot of ease for a staff member when they're using adaptive clothing, but again, it also comes down to the risk management of skin tears, bruising, injuries to the person, as well, which are all reportable items.

[33:28] Nick: Yeah, and I guess, you spoke before about, you're an advocate for people staying in their own homes for longer, and as am I. I've got my own perspective on it, and probably more from, again, the media and the marketing, and the drive from government. It's a great story. One that the cynicist in me might say, “Well, it's a great story to be able to win votes.” However, keeping people in their own home for longer is amazing, but that's the only narrative we're hearing about at the moment, so much so that we saw the number of aged care beds that were stripped out of circulation, in Victoria alone, last year. These people will still get to a point, probably, where we need full-time care, and the efficiency in that, in people's home, I don’t understand how they are going to start it.

[34:16] Naomi: There's a couple of things to take into consideration with that, as well. So, after the Royal Commission, one of the recommendations was that all wait times for home-care packages get wiped, and originally, we were seeing wait times for a level-four home-care package, which at the moment is nearly $60,000 a year of funding. Originally, we were seeing two-year wait times, as an average, and now that has decreased significantly, but you could still be waiting over a year for a home-care package like that. So, what do people do in the meantime, whilst they're waiting for funding? They can use CHSP subsidies, but then you have the issue where all of those providers are at capacity, so they can't serve you anyway. So, what we're finding now that people are still entering care prematurely, because they have to wait so long, or families are privately funding to, I guess, keep somebody at home for longer, but that's not sustainable, either, and we're finding that staffing is a significant issue, just like it is within residential aged care homes. After COVID, we lost such a big part of our workforce, that it's just not sustainable. There needs to be a plan for it, but we do try and keep people at home as long as it's safe to do so, but there are obviously constraints to that, as well.

[35:47] Nick: To me, I mean, there's so many factors that have got to be considered in caring for somebody in their own home. You look at their work safe guidelines. You've got to provide a safe workplace. So, is it safe for the carers to be going in there and working in that environment? How do you ensure that there isn't abuse going on in that environment, where it's hard enough to monitor that within a controlled environment, like an aged care facility? Or neglect. I think there's this drive to get people in their own homes for longer, and I get it, and it's nice, and all of those things, but sometimes these knee-jerk reactions then lead to other consequences that weren't considered. That's the thing, in my mind, that I go, “I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not convinced yet that it's the answer.”

[36:34] Naomi: Yeah, and I think it really comes down to that individual, as well. So, part of our process, like I said, was that clinical assessment of that person, and if they don't have cognitive capacity, then typically, and statistically, it's better to have them in care, rather than at home, because ultimately, the chances of them receiving 24/7 care at home is very low, meaning that there would be times that they would be alone for extended periods of time, but also that they wouldn't have the ability to advocate for themselves or communicate that something was wrong, or something that's happening. So, in those instances, yes, I absolutely agree that people who don't have capacity to be able to do that, should really, from a safety perspective, be in a residential aged care facility.

The ones that should stay at home, do have that insight, do have that cognitive capacity. They still have a big element of mobility. So, I think it really comes down to a fine line as to where they are at in their aged care journey, and statistically, or at risk, on how long it will be until they actually need to go into care. So, we look at how quickly somebody has deteriorated, in terms of their health, up until the point that we meet them, because the best indicator of future is obviously the past. So, if somebody has deteriorated in a matter of three months, and has deteriorated very rapidly, our advice would be to go into residential aged care. So, like I said, we provide a very bespoke service, and it's completely to do around that individual and what they need.

[38:21] Nick: Is there a lot of places available at the moment? Is that hard, to find placings?

[38:27] Naomi: Within facilities? It comes in waves, and I guess it depends on which area of Melbourne, particularly, that you're looking at. Obviously, the further you go out, the easier it is to place somebody, and you're also basing those statistics on the type of provider, as well. So, we find that the providers who, I guess, are more well-known, they market themselves very well, they have those innovative tech, fill up a lot more, and a lot quicker, but it comes in waves, and it's just the nature of the industry, unfortunately, because we find that a facility can change every three months, every 12 weeks, which is why we go and see facilities again, because you have change of staffing, you have change of residents. So, it comes in waves. At the moment, we're finding it fairly straightforward to place people because there's availability.

[39:23] Nick: Yeah, and what's your take on the discussion around funding? User pays. Are you following that, and what do you think about that?

[39:31] Naomi: Look, it's not a big focus on what we do. However, I do feel that if the consumer has the ability to pay for part, or all, of their care, they probably should, because it's more of a fair system. We come across a lot of clients that just don't have the means to even pay the basic-type fees. So, yeah, I'm not completely across that because finance really isn't my wheelhouse, but at the end of the day, I do feel, to have a fairer system, that if somebody has the means to pay for it, then they should.

[40:07] Nick: Yeah. Interesting. Excellent. Thank you. I've really enjoyed the conversation. How would you rate this? Have you done these sorts of interviews before?

[40:13] Naomi: Yes. So, probably more structured, but I really like the conversational pieces a lot more, because it's a bit more approachable, I think.

[40:21] Nick: Yeah, and look, like you, as an entrepreneur, as a businessperson, I'm interested in people's stories, I'm interested in what got them to where they're going, and what's driving them. So, that's why it's good to know, as well, how you'd rate this interview and this podcast, specifically.

[40:37] Naomi: Love it. 10 out of 10. I have to get someone to interview you.

[40:45] Nick: Sure. Any time. All right. Well, look, thank you for your time. I'll let you get back to it, and I appreciate it very much, Naomi.

[40:51] Naomi: Thanks, Nick.

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