Ep14 - Unlocking Success: A Deep Dive with Joe Foster on Mindset, Luck, and Reebok's Aerobics Revolution

Episode Summary

On this episode of The Australian Business Show, Joseph Foster joins Nick Stehr to talk about lessons he’s faced during his journey, technology’s effect on the modern way of life, how the sports industry has evolved throughout his career, Reebok’s move into the USA, and the power of marketing.

In 1958, with his late brother, Jeff, Joe Foster founded Reebok, the iconic fitness footwear and clothing brand. The Reebok brand has featured as a sponsor for major sports teams in Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, England, Germany, India, Mexico, New Zealand, Paraguay, Uruguay, USA, and Wales, and has been worn by prominent personalities, including Jane Fonda, Ariana Grande, Shaquille O’Neal, Gin Miller, Andriy Shevchenko, Mahendra Singh Dhoni, Ryan Giggs, Thierry Henry, Venus Williams, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, Victoria Beckham, and Cardi B.

Timestamp Segments

• [02:07] Joe’s top lessons.
• [04:12] Travelling away from family.
• [05:39] How technology has changed the way of life.
• [10:41] How has the nature of business changed?
• [14:29] Reebok in the 90s.
• [16:19] Reebok’s history.
• [17:42] Stephen Rubin and Paul Fireman.
• [21:31] Too many presidents.
• [22:41] Bringing in shareholders.
• [27:13] The power of marketing.

Notable Quotes

• “Kids, in particular, they don’t want to be told how to do things.”
• “The only problem with Reebok is, we’ve had more presidents than a Latin American state.”
• “Advertising should always ask a question.”

Relevant Links

reebokthefounder.com.

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Transcript

[00:01] Nick Stehr: Mr Reebok himself, Sir Joe Foster. I'm adding the Sir because I have that much respect for this man. Joe has been good enough to give us some of his time. For those of you that are regular listeners, you will have heard, Joe joined us on this show a little earlier this year, and has come back now to talk a little more deeply, certainly, about the Reebok Experience, but one of the things I know, as my life goes on, is that the older you get, the more experiences you've had, and I hope, you've learned from. Joe’s 89 years old, is as sprightly today as anything, and yet, has incredible wealth of experience that I personally really wanted to tap into and share that with you, as well.

[00:50] Welcome to the Australian Business Show. In today's swiftly evolving commercial landscape, opportunity and challenge abound. It's imperative to stay on the cutting edge, emulating the strategies of the most influential business leaders and entrepreneurs. Join our exclusive network as we unite with the world's elite. Together, we'll uncover their success stories, gain fresh perspectives on market trends, and learn the innovative tactics they employ to propel their companies to the forefront of success. Now, here's your host, Nick Stehr.

[01:24] Nick: Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Reebok, Joe Foster. How have you been? You been well?

[01:28] Joe Foster: Yeah, I'm fine. I think the weather's been worse than I have.

[01:31] Nick: Look, I want it to pick up, I guess, a little bit from where we left off last time, and thanks so much for giving me some more of your time, too. I really appreciate it. Love chatting with you. I was thinking a little bit about our conversation. I went back over and had a listen to the last time you were on, and one of the things, especially as a dad, we've both been fathers and are fathers, one thing that I've found with my kids is that, as they grow up, they go through that stage where you can't tell them anything. With life comes experience. You make mistakes, you have wins, you do all those things, but what is it about, I mean, you've got now a wealth of experience, and that's what I want to tap into here today, is you've got so much experience. You've done so many things. What are those things that are really the standout lessons that, if you could impart to somebody today, in business, you would?

[02:25] Joe: Well, I guess, you're learning all the time. I think it's listening and being patient. I think it's understanding that, and you talk about kids, in particular, they don't want to be told how to do things. They want to find out, and I guess, I was no different. You want to test the water yourself, even though, sometimes, you know it's hot. “Let me just check.” You still need to put your toe in. I think it's something to think about when you're having kids or even relationships, meeting people, really, you are nothing special. They may think you’re special, but really, you have to do one or two things that either came out very good or worked in some way. People say, “Joe, why are you so modest?” I say, “well, what's the difference?” Most of the things that I've done, I didn't write a list down and say, “this is my plan for life” and tick them all off when I've done them. You don't do that. You move along in life, and it's like many things that happened, with the business. We couldn't register the name that we had to begin with.

So, what you find is that you get problems, or you get challenges, and I think that the most important thing, in that life, is to accept those challenges as opportunities. “Okay, this is the challenge. How do we handle it?” We don't try and beat the death out of it. We just, “well, why are we trying to fight this? Surely, there's something we can do that's different.” So, we changed our name, and we changed our silhouette. So, we learned, and I think I learned a lot, that whenever you get a challenge, you have an opportunity. So, make the most out of that, and you usually find it that is better. With kids, I don't know. It all depends on what you do in life. My job just took me away from the family for so long and so many times. They just have to get on with it. You do your best when you can, when you get back, but then again, if you're not there, you're not there. You try and be the friend, but most people, that includes me, I guess growing up during World War 2, I didn't see much of my father. Not that he was fighting, but I just didn't see much of him.

[04:42] Nick: Do you think that made it easier for you or harder for you to then travel away, as a father?

[04:50] Joe: I think it might have made it easier. Also, I think two of the things made it easier, for me. One is that, during those years, and shortly after the war, both Jeff and myself were part of the scouting movement, and scouting gives you that independence. We were always over at weekends. We go camping or doing whatever was going on. I even went to a Jamboree in Austria, in part of my scouting years, and then we both did National Service, and National Service, again, takes you away from the family, gives you that independence, and you have to learn how to look after yourself. In the forces, it's up to you. Mother's not there, nobody’s making your bed, cooking your meals. You've got to do those things and look after yourself. So, you learn an awful lot of independence, which is something that kids of today don't get.

Now, they have computers, and they have smartphones, and their heads are always in the smartphones. They don't meet people. They just talk to people. It was strange, because when we went to Reebok in Boston, we said, “where is everybody?” And it was just after Covid, and they said, “well, yeah, we're a few guys in here.” They're supposed to come in at least three days a week, and if they don't, and if you say, “look, you've got to,” they leave. They just leave the company. They go somewhere else, and even when they do come in, they sit in their office, and they Zoom each other. They just Zoom each other. So, I guess, in today's world, we have a much different time from, probably, when you were a kid, growing up. You go out, you meet your pals, you do things. These days, kids don't. It's all to do with technology. It's all to do with what they've got in front of them.

Yes, I wished I could have had a Zoom meeting when I was in the business, but I retired in 1990, and we didn't have computers. So, we didn't have smartphones. So, totally different lives now. We talk to people now, and it’s AI, it’s “what's next?” In fact, we had an interview with a young guy who's going to be in Survive and Thrive, but he's only 19 now, and he's in Survive and Thrive. We met him in Australia with a […]. We're trying to think, “well, what would he get the Survivor and Thrive from, at 19?” It was a bit of a struggle, but we managed to get down inside. He literally went to school but didn't do school. He had his computer open all day, and I can't understand “why didn’t they stop you?” And he decided he wanted to be in real estate. So, all he was doing all day was studying about real estate, financing, and whatever. He didn't really have a formal education. His biggest thing they had to survive from was people saying, “no. You're too young. You've got to go to the university. You got to go to college.” No, that was his fight. Now, he has three houses and he's refinanced, and he's got $150,000 in the bank.

[07:56] Nick: At 19. Amazing. I think about my resilience in business, and then yours. You were quite independent growing up, you're off doing your thing, you've got to load to figure things out, and talk about, you were saying, when problems come, when challenges come, you go, “well, what's the opportunity out of this?” See, I didn't grow up with my father. My parents divorced when I was two. So, I didn't have a father there. He lived in another state. So, I often reflect on, I just figure things out, and I've always done that, because I guess, I had to, and I think that’s served me really well in business, and it sounds like, maybe, that was a little bit the same for you. Even though, your father was there, you didn't spend a lot of time with him. You have to learn how to figure things out.

[08:41] Joe: That is so important, and kids are resilient. They find a way around things. They do things.

[08:47] Nick: I think they're resilient when they're born, when they’re young, but sometimes, and we go to what you were saying, that the technology and the way life is now almost crushes that resilience out of them, because they become so dependent on that phone, on that interaction there, rather than having a conversation.

[09:05] Joe: You probably have the same knowledge that, go back, before we had smartphones, and I would probably remember 1000 numbers in my head. […] I go to pick the phone up, in those days, dial it. Now, I can hardly remember my own number, and it's the same with driving anywhere. Going in the car. We all have GPS. You don't remember. I mean, I used to be able to drive all around the country. Okay, I had the map and whatever, but I knew how to find my way around. I remember, this is a couple of years ago, when I was going to the […] displays where Reebok were, and my SATNAV let me down. It stopped, and I’ve been there a dozen times. Where do I go? And I was thinking, this would have never happened to me 20 years back.

[09:51] Nick: Well, look at the disruption, just last week, the Microsoft update, and everything stopped. So, I think that's a really important point, that we've got to, as parents, as grandparents, we've got to teach them how to think for themselves and not just rely solely on this tech that's in front of them, because what happens if and when that tech’s either not there or not available at that time? You got to work stuff out.

[10:14] Joe: You’ve got to be able to build some backup there.

[10:16] Nick: Yep, exactly right, and I think that translates to business really well, because business doesn't go smoothly. There's rarely a day, I think even our mutual friend, JT, he says, “if you have 52 good days a year, you'll be a millionaire.” I mean, that’s not many days out of 365, but the rest of it is all about flexing to the challenge and the trouble, and the challenge that sits in front of you. I think you speak about that very well. How do you think business changed? Did you see the nature of business change a lot during your journey? And then, how would you compare it today, compared to then?

[10:52] Joe: Well, I can only relate to my business, which was, we'll say, the sports industry. The sports industry has changed beyond sight. In my very early days, I would jump in my car and visit the sports shops, and they were small sports stores run by an ex-footballer or ex-cricketers, somebody who made his name in sport and he retired and set up a small shop, and there’d be, at least, four of those in every town. So, I would go around, and I'll be selling my product there.

[11:24] Nick: Yeah. Literally door to door.

[11:26] Joe: That's right. Now, they don't exist. Now, they're multiple giants. JD Sports, Footlocker, and people like this, where nobody goes round and knocking on the door. They just come to meetings. We used to stock our product. We used to have a warehouse with our products in there. Now, brands don't stock the products anymore. The big brands now, they take the orders, the orders go straight to the factory, and the factory sends the product straight to the retailer. They don't handle the product anymore. The retailer has to give at least 18 months forward notice for the orders. I've had a bad week. I used to go over to Yorkshire, and there was a guy in Yorkshire, in Halifax, good friend, Jack Lees. He knew every time I came in. You had bad week this week, Joe? Yes. Oh, go see what I need, and he just sent me into his warehouse, into the back there, and just check out his stock, and I'd come out and say, “I need this, this, this, and this. About 20 pairs of rugby boots,” and he’d say, “okay. Double that, then.” And that used to be it. It doesn't happen like that anymore. Nothing like that.

[12:34] Nick: They came up with a fancy name for it, the Just-in-Time manufacturing, to make it sound fancy. I get it. It's the competition of business, and it’s extremely competitive, and they've got to manage costs, and sitting on stock is expensive, but it's very different.

[12:48] Joe: And from that now, there's so much online. Online now is bigger and bigger. We used to do direct selling. We used to do quite a bit of that because we’d go to race meetings, we'd also advertised, and people would come direct to us. So, we’d do postal sales, but not like it is now. We probably have, almost every day, somebody comes and brings a parcel of something. Read one this morning. It's so much direct selling there, and the High Streets are dead. The High Streets are going. I mean, apart from major cities, like Paris or London, and New York. The major High Street is going. Usually, go to a mall, at least, five times a week, just to walk, because you're out of the rain, you're out to the sun, it's nice, it's flat, you can go and have a coffee, and you can buy some food. You can do whatever. So, it's all moving into malls. Even the malls are almost glorified advertising boards. This is where you make your brand visible. Often, a lot of people will go in there, try things on, and then put it back, and they’ll order it  online.

[13:54] Nick: Look at where we caught up, at Chadstone, the size of that mall in Melbourne, Victoria, and there's one of the new Reebok stores there, as well. All of the brands are there.

[14:06] Joe: Absolutely, and the big brands have an awful lot of space. Nike and Adidas have massive stores in all the malls. This is where Reebok have to be now. It's not difficult to say, “well, how do you need to build your brand?” You need to build your brand with influencers and visibility. Visibility in the mall and also, on the feet of influences.

[14:29] Nick: Did you say it was around ‘91 when you stepped back?

[14:33] Joe: It was the end of ’89, right at the beginning of ’90.

[14:36] Nick: Where was the business at, at that point? What size was the business? What was it doing?

[14:41] Joe: We were t about four billion. We’d overtaken Nike. All I was doing, at that time, because we had so many people, we were actually running the business from America. That's where I found the best place to be. The biggest market, get into America. You've got so many people with a good disposable income. Also, the thing about America, and I was doing global. Global business was just over a billion dollars, but all I was doing was getting on an aeroplane, flying around the world three times, being picked up at the airport by a limousine, going to the best hotels, going out for meals with the guys who were the head honcho’s, at that time, and I thought, “what am I doing? There's no challenge here.”

The challenge had gone, for me, and I think that was probably the driving force, for me, was having challenges, because Jeff and I started out just two of us. You’ve got challenges every day, all the time. Cash flow’s suffering. Going to see the bank. It was great because every time, there was another challenge there. Getting to America was a challenge. Took me 11 years, but while there were challenges, it was great. When it was gone, I didn't want to be an ambassador. I didn't want to be just waving the flag. I needed something to do. So, I decided to step back. I didn't turn myself away from the company altogether. I just stepped back, kept on going to all the annual meetings and whatever. I was always invited to those things. So, there's always kept some relationship, but of course, it changed. It changed when I went to Adidas. Now, it’s gone to ABG, and they're putting some effort into it.

I think it's going to come back, and the one beautiful thing that we’ve got at Reebok is history. I think history works really well, because there's so many stories. In fact, I was telling the guys, it's Paris Olympics on Friday, 2024. 100 years ago, Paris Olympics in 1924, Harold Abrahams won the 100 metres sprint, and the guy called Eric Liddell, he won the 400 metres, and they both won, they got gold medals, and both got gold medals in my grandfather's shoes, Fosters. It's a good history that they can use.

[16:57] Nick: To clarify that, that was JW Foster, was that right? And your grandfather. So, he was the original creator of the spike running shoe, right?

[17:06] Joe: That's right. Yeah. 1895. A good story. A lot of stories. Good history.

[17:12] Nick: Yeah. So, clearly, shoes are in your blood. It's been in your life, your entire life, virtually.

[17:19] Joe: This is Reebok's tradition. Reebok's tradition goes back beyond that, to 1924 and beyond Chariots of Fire, but so much is of story. I guess that athletics and athletic shoes are in the blood, part of the DNA.

[17:34] Nick: Yeah, and these are the stories that you go through a lot, in Shoemaker, your new book, as well.

[17:39] Joe: That's right. Yes.

[17:40] Nick: Yeah. So, when did Stephen Rubin get involved with you? I think he came and invested into the business, didn't he?

[17:47] Joe: It's like any story. You could ask probably four or five different people who've been with Reebok a long time, Rubin, Fireman, and one or two other people, and you'll get a different story, because you'll get a story from their angle.

[18:01] Nick: Their perspective, yeah.

[18:03] Joe: Let's talk about Stephen. Stephen is Jewish. Paul Fireman, who I put on as the distributor of the licence for America, he's Jewish. Paul didn’t have much money. He needed to, things really needed to happen. So, I went to America quite a few times, and we visited lots of people, and the Empire State Building with another guy called Mano, who turned down Nike. Can you believe it? He turned down Nike, and I remember, during our meeting, he said, “well, I like your ideas. It’s good, but don't know if there's a future. So, I'm not going to support you, because I don't want to be the guy that they say backed the wrong team.” So, he didn't back Reebok.

[18:47] Nick: The joke’s on him.

[18:48] Joe: Yeah. The joke’s on him. So, he failed to back Nike and then didn't back Reebok because he didn't want to be known as the guy who backed the wrong horse.

[18:56] Nick: I think he got […] or didn't, as the case may be.

[19:01] Joe: Continuing on with that, Paul had another guy, who was an American, Bill, I think it is. They made rubber soles. They were manufacturers of rubber soles, and Bill, he was called, and he knew Stephen Rubin, again, part of the Jewish community. So, he knew Steve Rubin. So, he introduced Paul Fireman to Stephen Rubin. What Stephen wanted, really, was somebody to give him a credit line to source the product, because if you go to the Far East, you’ve got to have a letter of credit. In other words, you’ve got to have the money, or the bank has got to guarantee the money before they will make the product. So, Paul didn't have enough money for the bank to be able to say, “yeah, we'll give you a letter of credit.” So, he went to Stephen Rubin, who had a company in the Far East, ASCO, Associated Shoe Company. They sourced product for Sears and people like that. Big companies, own brand, or white label. So, he used to do that. So, obviously he would listen to Paul. Paul managed to talk him into to giving him a line of credit, of course.

Rubin would be sourcing the product. So, we'd get $0.05 on every shoe that he sourced, but he gave him an open credit, but he wanted Paul and his team to go around to the big Nordstroms, and all the big retailers, and sell white label. He wanted him to do that, and the one thing I'll give Paul, Paul said, “no. I'm not doing that. We're Reebok and I'm only going to sell Reebok.” Obviously, Rubin said “Okay, then. Fine.” He didn't have any faith, again, in the fact that Reebok could become something. When we got into aerobics, of course, the credit line got up to about 50 million. It was incredible, and Stephen Rubin got very nervous, but it worked, and they made millions and millions out of it. In fact, Julie and I went to see Stephen, about six months ago now. We went to his office and had a chat with him. It was quite interesting because he had fallen out with Paul Fireman. They'd fallen out, at a certain point, and I'd been in the room when those two had been arguing and that, but I still say that Stephen Rubin and Paul Fireman were very important, and a brilliant part of Reebok's early days.

[21:22] Nick: Yeah. Was it Paul Fireman's business that, when he left, that was your distributorship model that then didn't work, later on? Was that that, or was that somebody else?

[21:31] Joe: No. Paul was great. Problem with Paul is that he didn't know how to handle the reins. We had a lot of presidents. In fact, we went to a birthday party. I think it was the 25th birthday party for Reebok, and one of the guys, Angel Martinez, he is in the book and he's the guy who really brought us into aerobics, and he got on the stage and just started talking. […] All fantastic, and he said, “the only problem with Reebok is, we've had more presidents than a Latin American State,” and then he said, “no, no, no. We've had more presidents than all of the Latin American states,” and that probably describes what went wrong, at that point, Paul Fireman used to step back just to become chairman and bring in a new CEO or president, but he kept messing about, didn't give him the reins and let him get on with it. So, as a result, people left, and you didn't get that stability you needed to keep up from being a four billion to us to 10 billion, which is what was needed. Instead, Paul Fireman sold the company to Adidas.

[22:41] Nick: Because at what point did you and your brother bring in any shareholders or any other investment? What stage were you at there, and why did you decide to do that? You and your brother owned 100% of it, originally?

[22:53] Joe: We just got to America to get people interested in investing is difficult. They want traction. They want to have seen that you've done something, that you're at a certain point, and those people really only seem to want to come in to help you expand what you've got, as against help you get on that first rung of the ladder, and for us, we had a number of people we tried to get interested and it wouldn't happen. So, we bootstrapped. We bootstrapped all the way to get into America, and then, unfortunately, we just got to America when Jeff died. He overdid it. He used to push himself too hard. At the end of all these races, he would be physically sick, and result of that is that he got stomach cancer, at one point, and that was it. He never got over it. So, just as we got in. So, he never saw Reebok grow to anything, which was a shame. He never got that experience. So, I stayed wholly owning the company for four years as we were starting to grow, and then once Rubin came in, to give us a credit line, that was the time when he took shares of the company.

[23:59] Nick: Did he take 55%? Did I read that correctly?

[24:02] Joe: Yeah, he took 55%. Yeah. I could make that decision because having lost Jeff and replaced him by two or three people, I needed somebody else to take that strain, and he was the man with the money. So, for me, that was okay, and at the end of the day, the result was, Reebok became #1.

[24:24] Nick: I ask because so many of our listens on the Australian Business Show are in small-medium businesses, verging on that. There are large-sized businesses. So, anywhere from, I guess, startups up to $10/20 million in revenue, and there comes a time, around that $10 million, I found, where you have to try and make a decision about, how do I move this business from that stage into the next phase of growth? It takes capital. That's the challenge there, is that you can bootstrap it, to a point, but then to push through that stage, and I think that's where, obviously, one of the things you recognise is, if we're going to go to the next level and the 10 levels beyond that, it's going to take some serious cash to do that. Would you agree with that?

[25:07] Joe: I mean, I agree totally with what you’re saying, but what happened to us is, we hit on aerobics, and all of a sudden, we didn't have to go sell anything. We had 2, 3, maybe 4 years of panic in trying to get the product, because the demand was such, Rubin was providing the money, the demand was great. So, our biggest problem was manufacturing.

[25:28] Nick: Keeping up with the man.

[25:29] Joe: Yeah. Had we not kept up with the man, and Paul Fireman recognised this, we would have starved the market, and other people would have come in. It would have sucked Nike and Adidas in. So, fortunately for us, we were really desperate for production, and at that time, Nike hit a wall. They found themselves with too much inventory, and they pulled out of four factories. Just what we needed. A factory, they can work five or seven days a week. They can do overtime, but they can't, say, triple the production. They can't do that, which is what we needed. We needed three times. We were doing maybe two- or three-thousand pairs month, and all of a sudden, we wanted up to 5 million pairs a month. What's that? It was, again, that production.

So, luckily for us, Nike hit that wall, and had to pull out, and we managed to take on that production and keep supply, and even then, we let an awful lot of people down, globally, because we sat down and said, “look, the market we need to make sure it is satisfied, is America. We have got to keep that going. Even if UK, Germany, Japan, or whatever, suffer a little.” Unfortunately, they had to suffer, and we couldn't produce enough of aerobics products.

[26:49] Nick: You're quite humbling. You talk a lot about luck. I would agree with you. Sometimes you're just in the right place at the right time, and luck, I don't think you can necessarily manifest it, but you can be open to it, and that is identify the opportunity when it's there and take a risk, and you talk about luck, you talk about the aerobics that happened, you talk about luck with the Nike factories. It just was luck, as you would say. The whole Jane Fonda experience, the aerobics thing. There was nothing planned about that at all. Did approach her as an early influencer?

[27:20] Joe: No, the first thing we knew is she had a pair of Reeboks on, doing her videos. We didn't know that she'd done that. She was in LA. That's where aerobics really took off. So, all the girls were wearing Reeboks. So, I guess, she […]. “I must try it.” This is why marketing is so superior to knowledge, about me being a Shoeman. So, I'm producing shoes. If they'd come to me and said, “we're going to make aerobic shoes out of glove leather,” I’d have said, “you can't do that.” Glove leather, you can rip it like a piece of paper. It is weak. It just rips. You can't do that because it won't stand somebody wearing it as a shoe, and indeed, it didn't. They made them out of glove leather because they came up with the idea after seeing it, and said, “why don't we make an aerobics shoe just for girls and women's sizes, and make it out of glove leather so it feels comfortable?” We’re going for comfort. So, he got the guys to make him up these samples and all this. This was great. Shoe looked good. Perfect, but glove leather is 1 millimetre in thickness, and then when you take the surface off, you take the finish off because you've got to get your adhesive in there, you're talking about .7 of a millimetre. When you put a foot inside that and you start bouncing about on it, it was just ripping apart.

So, I said, when I found out that we're doing this, “what are you doing?” We’re going to line it with nylon. I said, “that's okay, but the reason you’re using leather is because it breathes, and the minute you laminate it with the nylon, you're going to stop it breathing. It might be strong, but you're going to stop it breathing.” So, what did they do? They punched holes in a nice pattern on the toe, and it worked. Marketing. It's marketing. They still had to replace the leather. So, eventually, we got to something more like garment leather. That really changed the whole of the sports footwear business. The sports footwear businesses had used regular street footwear leather, which is quite hard and needs wearing in, bending, and of course, just wearing in the shoe can be painful, at times, if you're using basic leather. Now, Reebok introduced soft leather. So, they didn't need breaking in. That became one of one of our big marketing ploys, that you don't need to break these shoes in. You can just put them on and they’re comfortable.

[29:50] Nick: That unique selling point, but it's not just that, is it, then? It's the marketing that goes with it. How do we spin this, so that it speaks to our audience, to our consumer?

[29:59] Joe: Well, they did it in tennis. In tennis, it was going good because, again, Stan Smith used to be the favourite shoe. Stan Smith, again, was an Adidas one, and it was in white, but it was quite firm leather. We had an advertising agency, and the agency suggested we have this advert, was “Reebok puts their balls on the line,” and that was the fact that, if you don't think that Reebok shoes are the best shoes you've ever worn, we'll give you your money back and a can of balls, and that strapline was “Reebok puts their balls on the line.” It's just getting somebody's attention. That's fine, and I think this is the main thing about advertising. I know a young guy, but he was very good because he said, “advertising should always ask a question, and if it asks a question, people think.” So, he used to do that. He did an advert, when we were just purely running, and all runners go out at weekend, training. So, he had this advert, this runner running through a forest, and the strapline on that was, “Sunday morning, religiously.”

[31:13] Nick: Yeah, I'm writing it down. I love that. Advertising should always ask a question. That's a simple thing that everybody can apply. I know JT talks, at length, about marketing, and saying, “if you think you would a marketer $80,000 a year and they're going to double, triple your business, you're sorely mistaken. You need to understand it. You need to master it. You need to come up with the ideas. Then they can execute.” So, that's a great learning for us. Joe, I could sit here and chat to you all day, and we'll get another chance, I think. We're now going to co-author in a book, How to Survive and Thrive, which I'm very excited about. I think we're catching up next Friday. We’ll just set that up, to have our chat there. So, thank you so much for your time, and for being such an inspiration. Honestly, I thoroughly enjoy our conversations. Just the fact you're out there, doing what you are doing, talking about your experiences. I think, everybody can learn so much from that. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[32:08] Joe: Nick, it's been a pleasure. It always is.

[32:10] Nick: Thanks, Joe.

[32:11] Joe: See you again.

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