How to Trust Yourself When Fear Gets Loud

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What if fear isn’t something to heal… but something to understand?

In this episode of The Brilliance Method, I’m joined by Joanna Lindenbaum, founder of the Applied Depth Institute, for a powerful conversation on fear, visibility, self-trust, and the hidden ways we keep ourselves small.

We talk about why being seen can feel unsafe, how fear disguises itself as resistance, and why true transformation comes from learning to work with fear—not against it.

Joanna shares her deeply personal story of Bell’s Palsy, the spiritual lesson behind it, and how her body forced her into alignment with her real calling.

We also explore ethical coaching, power dynamics, nervous system wisdom, rest, grief, and why remembering who you are is often the real healing.

If you’ve been feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or like you know you’re meant for more but can’t quite move—this episode will meet you there.

Guest:
Joanna Lindenbaum
Founder of the Applied Depth Institute

🎧 Get Joanna’s Resistance Archetype Ebook + explore her work:https://pages.applieddepthinstitute.com/resistance

Connect with Joanna: www.applieddepthinstitute.com

https://linktr.ee/joanna.lindenbaum

https://www.instagram.com/joanna.lindenbaum/

Joanna Lindenbaum is the founder of the Applied Depth Institute, and teaches master level facilitation and coaching skills to coaches, therapists and leaders so they can respond powerfully & effectively to the issues their clients bring to them.

Using her 20+ years of experience and extensive background with coaching, human behavior, embodiment practices, and Archetype & Shadow, Joanna’s approach to ethical and trauma-informed facilitation and coaching supports her students to gain a level of skill, confidence and depth the majority of their peers don’t have. Graduates of her signature Sacred Depths Practitioner Certification become the best of the best at what they do, plus they experience life-changing personal transformations as they step into this mastery level. All of this, in turn, positively impacts their businesses as their proven results then attract more renewals, referrals, and professional opportunities.

Joanna has led hundreds of retreats, workshops, and trainings with thousands of participants and clients in the US and abroad. She is also the host of The Coaching r(E)volution podcast.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

What if all that fear you're trying to get rid of is actually your doorway to the healthy, happy life you're meant to live? Today I'm talking with Joanna Lindenbaum, founder of the Applied Depth Institute. We break down why fear might not actually be the enemy and why so many people are maybe not afraid of failure, but afraid of fully being seen, and how your body will often force alignment when your soul has been asking you to change for years. We also have a very honest conversation about the coaching industry, including abusive coaching dynamics, manipulation disguised as mentorship, and how to tell the difference between real guidance and someone trying to control you. This is about healing, self-trust, nervous system wisdom, visibility, and finally choosing the life that is actually yours. If you've been feeling a little bit lost lately, overwhelmed, afraid to be seen, or questioning who to trust, this episode will help. Let's get into it. Hello, my new friend. Welcome to the party. Hi, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so glad. Here we are in divine timing coming together to do some good in this world. Yes. Yes. And on your website, you talk about this pivotal moment that happened in 2015 that changed everything for you. Can we just jump right into that?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, back in 2015, I had already been coaching and mentoring and leading circle for many, many years. And at that point in my business, I was mainly supporting entrepreneurs to build their businesses. I was helping them with marketing for sure. That that wasn't really the brilliance, but I was good enough at it. I was really helping them go deep inside of themselves, working with their shadows, undoing, you know, unfurling fears, becoming better friends with the fears, and combining that with business coaching. And the light bulb moment was that, you know, one day I was kind of like, how is it I'm not a marketing superstar? And yet so many of my clients are building their businesses with my support. What is it that's happening here? And what I realized was yes, it was the inner work that we were doing for sure. Because of course, we know we need to find that courage to be visible and put ourselves out there. But the thing that really struck me was that I realized this whole that whole time, in addition to all of those things, I had been modeling for my clients how to hold really deep space with their clients. I had been modeling for my clients how to support their own clients with their shadows. I had been modeling for my clients how to co-create better results in their client work. And that was actually the key to their success because their clients were having amazing experiences and renewing with them and sending referrals. That in turn was supporting my clients to be even more confident, which helped them be even bolder in their marketing statements and put themselves out there even more. And there we were. And so that was that was the first aha. The second aha that came right behind that was oh my gosh, I love this industry so much. And yet, at the same time, we're not training our practitioners to be as exceptional as they can be. I really, for as much as I believe in therapy, and I'm a lifelong person who has, you know, gone to therapy off and on over the years, I also don't believe that it is the only pathway to reclaiming wholeness, to moving through trauma, to being able to feel satisfied in life and connected to self, others, and spirit. And I think our culture does us a big disservice by focusing only or mostly on this one Western, I don't know what we call it, allopathic, whatever it is, way. And um having learned ritual, worked, you know, all of these different things. The the bigger light bulb moment for me was it's important for those of us that are outside of the box to get the best training so that we can all rise together. And there can be many pathways and strategies to to wholeness and well-being.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I'm so grateful for what you do. And I wish I found you in 2015, 2016. I wound up in 2018 working with a great coach. His name is Bill Barron, and you know, mostly business stuff. And then over the years, especially in the online space, it's so saturated with coaching, coaching, business coaching, just different types of coaching. And I'm not, you know, I'm pot calling the kettle. I'm also an online coach in many ways to many people. But there, I've seen so much abuse, Joanna, and I'm sure you have too. And there was a period of time where people were coming to me and my program because it felt so safe, because they had to heal the trauma of being in other people's programs. I'm like, I could create a whole program just to help you heal from the trauma from your shitty coach. Like, we need someone who can teach coaches how to be better coaches. And I didn't have time to create a life coach certification for that. And like, you have all of this at our disposal. Like, oh my gosh, here you are.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

It's, you know, you bring up such an important point. And I have had those experiences as well. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that you're speaking to is not just ethics as practitioners, but it's the shadow of power.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Right. So it's not enough to just learn cool transformation techniques. It's not enough to just learn coaching skills. Like, yes, of course, that's great. We want that. But if we haven't worked our own relationship to power, we run the risk of abusing it at some point. Not because we're bad people. Like, I just I want to be so clear because I agree with you, there are so many coaches out there where people are getting damaged in their space, where there's abuse of power, but it's not because those coaches are bad people. It's not because those leaders are bad people. It's because of culture, right? Most of our role models of power and authority in culture, they've abused it in one way or another. And because of that, at some point, most people, even if they really want power, they really want to be empowered, they've also decided that it's bad. And the moment we decide anything is bad, we can't use it correctly. We can't use it effectively, and we can't use it ethically. And I think that's the case inside of the coaching industry sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

I think that's fair to say for a lot of industries. I've seen real estate professionals go through this with their brokerages. I've seen actors and creatives, directors, producers go through this with networks or other executive producers. And, you know, we have this desire to not be, you know, a sheep. And that's something that's been ingrained in us. Like that's a, you know, that's a bad thing or whatever. And the truth is, not everybody is a natural-born leader or even wants to be a leader, or even wants to be responsible for other people. And that doesn't make them a sheep. And we have to, I love how you said, well, as soon as we've made something bad, then we can't use it. And I'm gonna sit with that more and be more present to that when it comes up in my mind, if when I'm labeling things. And I'm a Course and Miracles student. And I have learned and practiced over the years that when we label anything, this even goes back to Eckhart Tolle's teachings. We make something real, right? We're making it real in this whatever version of reality we're experiencing or not. And then that gives it power. So, what do we want to give our power to? Kindness, compassion, taking better care of others. And I liked how you said becoming better friends with our fear.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

How do we do that? Such a good question. So it's like, right, it's a million-dollar question. So the the first part is to be to understand that our fear is something for us to become friends with. So, so much out in culture, definitely in the coaching industry, but everywhere we see these phrases like vanquish fear, destroy fear. And we don't want to do any of those things. We don't even want to release fear. I know that sounds radical, but we don't even want to release fear. Um, we want to make better friends with it. So we want to understand why. Like, why would we want to be friends with fear? So the way I like to look at it, I always use this metaphor: fear is like a smoke alarm. We absolutely want a smoke alarm in the kitchen. Because there might be a fire. And if there's a fire, we want it to go off because we need to get out of the house and we need to call for help and we need to get water. So the idea isn't to get rid of the smoke alarm altogether. The idea is to get to know it better, to know, oh, it's going off now because there is an actual threat. I need to run away or, you know, do something about this. Or, oh, you know what? The smoke alarm, the fear is going off because this is something that used to feel like a threat when I was younger in the past, when I didn't have the resources or the wisdom or the tools that I have now. And back then it was a survival threat. Back then, it was a true fire in the kitchen. But now it's not. I don't have to be scared of it in the same way. So, to get back to your original question, how do we become friends with it? This is the first piece, is we have to realign our perspective on what fear is. We don't want to get rid of it, we don't even want to release it. We wanna start to get to understand it better, respect it, and know when it's signaling a real threat and when it's signaling an old threat that we can handle.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah. And what I love about this, the way that you're languaging this too, is by following this idea, this process, and what it is you help people with, the end result is gonna feel like you've released the fear. But that's not the point. And maybe you have or haven't. In fact, it won't even matter because it doesn't affect you anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yes. And what I would add to that is uh the end result, even more than feeling like you've released the fear, is that you feel like you can stay regulated in the face of the fear and make really good decisions and take action anyway.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I have another question. When we uh let go of the idea of something or we transform our relationship with something, there is often an energetic space for something new to be created. So in this friendship with fear, or and however we've transformed it, to not focus on that and to remember the truth. One of my mantras is in this moment I am safe. What do we fill in with at that point?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So I love this question. I think it's gonna be different for each uh situation. I was gonna say first each each person, but really each situation, right? Um, but you know, if I could give one answer to that question, is what do we fill it up with? It's a higher wisdom, uh, an uh a piece of wisdom from our here and now more resourced self. So the example that you gave, like I am safe no matter what, that's a piece of wisdom from your here and now resourced self. Um, sometimes what might come in as we befriend the fear, let's say it's about visibility and making yourself visible in your business, and and that's been the fear to put yourself out there. I mean, so many different pieces could come in, but for a particular person in a particular moment, the wisdom that comes in might be it's okay if people don't like me. Right. So it's what is the resourced wisdom that we can make bigger than the I'm not gonna be okay part of the fear.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

That's right. So we're shifting our focus also, and we know so much. Like everyone who is listening and watching to this right now, you know so much. You are so wise. And we get caught up in the bullshit and the mishigas and the story, and we forget who we are, and that we are powerful and there's no need to abuse it, and we're wonderful, brilliant creatures. And then something happens that triggers something, and then we just flail. And there's so much work to do, you know, and I appreciate what you were saying about therapy. I don't believe it's the only way or the fastest way for anyone who's going to therapy. Obviously, don't quit, but combine it with coaching, with practice, with somatic work, with amazing, brilliant people who've got your back, read books, watch shows like this, listen to Joanna's podcast, and remember who you are.

unknown 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Remember who you are. It's amazing, and all of us have access. So I have two daughters, and my younger daughter is 11, and she has a lot of fears. And since she's been seven or eight, I've been working the Befriend Your Fear process with, you know, with her, with her fears. It's a somatic process. It's a it's a way of going in and dialoguing with your fear and holding space for your fear and listening to it. And what amazes me about it is even at that age, just taking the time to hold space for the fear, she does what you just said. She remembers who she is. And the fear may not go away, but she is often able to say to the fear, and I don't feed her these words. It's like it can't, we just all have this innately into us. She's often able to say to the fear, I have your back. I'm gonna take care of you. You don't have to be so scared. And it's just like it's such a beautiful thing to witness, whether someone is eight or eighty, to come back to that knowing, to that self-knowing.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

That's beautiful. What a gift. What a gift that children can do this work. You know, we often think, oh, kids are just in school for academia and to get book smarts. And there's a lack of empathy and self-work that's taught in schools. And not everybody has amazing parents like you or the mother that I had. And I hope that any parents out there are taking some notes right now. And if you want to have a deeper conversation on how do I actually talk to my kids, that's a good thing to get in touch with Joanna about. And all of her links are going to be in the description below, including her website, her socials. What if the most powerful thing your team could do wasn't another training, another framework, another goal setting session? What if it was learning to actually slow down, get present, and actually trust themselves? Hi, I'm Alicia Skye, mindfulness consultant, speaker, and intuitive business coach. Through the success of my clients, I have proven that when people trust themselves, they stop second-guessing every decision. They stop shrinking in rooms they belong in, they communicate more clearly, more effectively, they lead more confidently, and they stop waiting for permission to take up space. They take creative risks, they inspire the people around them without even trying. And that's not soft work. That's a competitive advantage. I lead immersive mindfulness and meditation experiences for companies to go deeper, not surface level stress tips. These are real tools for presence, self-trust, and showing up with intention. I've brought this into teams at Paramount Global, Gap Inc. and their brands, Humanity HR, and many more. The room always shifts every time. Happier employees are healthier employees, and healthier employees do better work. So if you're ready to explore that, head to elesiasky.com. Let's help your team thrive, not just survive. As business owners, especially in the coaching space, healing space, entrepreneurial space, creative space, there's so much to do. It's like we're never bored, we can never run out of things to do. If at any point you find yourself not knowing what to do, it's probably you've just got like overwhelmed. So you're freezing as a reaction to it. But when we're going through trauma, grief, time that we need to pause and say, hey, everyone, I'm tapping out for a minute because I have to, because I choose to. And, you know, you are you just went through and are going through something, and I've gone through so much. And I would love you to share, you could share any insight from anything you're experiencing or any guidance for the rest of us who might need to just step away from their business for a second, just a hot second or a hundred seconds to focus on themselves. Like give us permission to do that, Joanna.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah. I love this question. I'm gonna answer it in two ways. The first is it is patriarchal and uh advanced capitalist lie that we have to be working at all moments, and that we can't be successful if we take a break or slow down. It is just, and it's seeped those messages as we know they're seeped into our being. We buy into them, but it it is just not so. It is just not so. And I prefer to remember the wisdom of the earth versus the messaging of the patriarchy. I'm really consider myself a lifelong student of the cycles. And you know, every cycle has a winter, every cycle has a phase of release and silence and letting go, whether it's the cycle of the year, whether it's the cycle of the moon and the new moon, whether or right before the new moon, the dark of the moon, whether it is the cycle of the day and the middle of the night, the phase of the nighttime, whether it's the pause at the bottom of a breath, we cannot have a rebirth without a pause and a death. We cannot plow fertile grounds. The grounds cannot be fertile. If we don't take a break, when it's important to take a break. And oftentimes our bodies and our psyches will let us know when. So I don't ascribe to the like every winter you don't do anything, or during the dark of the moon, or when I bleed, that's my winter time. For me, it's more every cycle has its own length, every phase has its own length. But I'm looking for my body's and my psyche's cues to know, oh, this is actually what is most productive at this moment, is to take a step out.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Thank you for sharing that. And people get so scared that everything's gonna fall apart. And especially so much pressure is put on social media. And we're taught that the algorithms require consistency. And one of my clients just lost her grandma, and she's such an angel, such a light. It's amazing. A story for another day, the divine timing of all of it with her book publishing and all of this. I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of you, Jesse, if you're watching this. And she's growing her TikTok and she's getting pretty big on TikTok. And she has this beautiful channel as a mother and a healer and a teacher. And she just couldn't. She just had to go live and be present and be with family. And we had conversations about this in my coaching program about what happens when we step away. And there were people who had fear about it, like, oh, it took so long to like get out of the hundred view jail and blah, blah, blah, all this bullshit people say. Not that it's bullshit that it happens because the algorithms are not always on our side. They want us to be on the apps, but that we have to subscribe to this. And so my job as a coach is to give everyone permission to let go of whatever it is that they're telling you and do what you feel motivated and inspired to do. And here's the truth: if anyone is like, no, I can't get off the algorithm, whatever platform it is, get off the algorithm, heal, be present for your family. And when you come back, it's going to be so excited you're back. It's going to push your shit back out. It will. It might take like revving up the engine again and doing a little more posting than you might want, but nothing is lost when you choose to put yourself first. The only time anything's lost is when you abandon yourself with a capital S.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

It's, I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more. You're gospel, you know, for real. I've taken many hiatuses from social media, sometimes because of something like, you know, my mom passed, but other times because I was like, I'm tired and I don't feel like doing social media. And I haven't regretted it. It has not impacted my business. When we show up for things, the energy that we show up for them with is 80% of it. This is so true in business. It's not just about doing the things or the right marketing formula or the showing up for the social media every day. It's like, what are your energetics? Who are you being when you show up? What is the energy that you bring? And if you bring tired energy, if you bring not fully present energy, it doesn't matter. You can post 10 times a day, it's not going to do anything for you. But if you you take the space that you need for whatever the reason is, and you come back with the right energetics, that's where the impact is going to be made.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

That's right. That's so important to hear. If you're in a shit mood, it's alchemy, right? It's like if a if a chef is in a bad mood, the food's not going to taste as good. If you're just pushing because you feel you have to, and desperation cancels manifestation, those posts you're spending all this time on, these reels, these reels aren't gonna land. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. While you were talking, the Mary Magdalene card just popped out of my deck. And it was like right around when you mentioned your mother finally. So I was like, oh my gosh, unconditional love. It really feels like there's an angel showing up for you today, Joanna.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Oh, what a gift. Thank you. Thank you. I also love that because I feel like it relates to everything we've been talking about so far. Like, what how do you befriend fear? Well, one of the things is you have to have unconditional love for your fear. You can't hate on it. You know, how do you allow yourself to pause when it's time to pause? Have unconditional love for yourself. So it feels perfect for amazing and discussing.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

I love pulling cards on this show because they're not just for my guests, they're also for my audience. It's always the perfect time. So, this card from Mary Magdalene, this is the goddess guidance deck from Doreen Virtue before she like renounced her, what would you call it? New ageism. This says, love yourself, others, and every situation, no matter what the outward appearances may be. There it is. How beautiful. Okay, and then I've got these mind oracle cards, which are really fun. I use them at my in-person events called Clarity Camp. It's goddess work. We get so much shit done. It's pretty phenomenal. Let's call in some mind magic. So for everyone listening or watching, and Joanna as well, just set an intention on what it is you need to hear and receive right in this moment. It could be that simple. Dear angels, God, universe, source energy. What is it that I need to hear right now? Even if it's not what I think I need to hear right now. As coaches, we get that one once in a while. I hear no Alicia. I hear that one a lot. Okay. Give it time. This is what came out. Connect. Connect, connect, connect. We are all connected. You're being asked to connect with others in meaningful ways. Sometimes it's helpful to get new perspectives and to simply be around other people. Well, here we are. You're in need of this right now, and deep connection will benefit you in many ways. And you lead retreats and workshops, and you give your audience an opportunity to come together, as do I. Can you tell us a little bit about those experiences?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah, I mean, I in so many ways, I think circle work, community work, group work, this it is the most important work. I'm sure the same thing happens in your retreats. I feel like inside of those retreats and those communities, we're kind of creating new paradigm of culture and community ways in which people love, hear, and see each other. And there's respect and there isn't hierarchy, there's normalization, you know, all of the things. So I just I so much magic happens inside of groups. Most of my groups are practitioner trainings. So training coaches and therapists and other leaders, how to go deeper with your own clients, how to do shadow work with your clients, and how to just be even more extraordinary in the ways that you support others.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

I love it. So why do you think the connect card came up for us today?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Well, it's funny because uh I could talk, I can say personally when it came up the association it had for me, which is I just last week crossed threshold into 50. And so it's been very much on my mind. I've been doing all of my yearly assessments and decade assessments and ritual, you know, around all of it. And one of the really big themes that keep on coming up for me as I kind of step into this next time in my life and this next decade is to prioritize connection, is to take more pleasure in all of the incredible relationships and friendships that I've created, and also to take more pleasure in connection to spirit. So when I saw the connect come up, I was like, yeah, that's my theme. Of course that came up. Um but I think that that's also, I mean, you know, it's it's me, but it's not just me. I think it's medicine for these times. We are so isolated in so many ways. You know, yeah, computers are great, and social media is great, and texting is great, and Zoom is, you know, like it's all wonderful for sure. And and it helps in so many ways. And I'm not the first person to say it, but it's also it's created isolation. And I think so much what so many people are craving right now is to to get out more and be in connection.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Yeah, I know. I wish we were in the room together right now. As intuitives, we can feel each other through the screen, through the phone. You know, when I was first learning long distance, Reiki and stuff, there's that doesn't matter where people are, but there's something about the like the just the visceral experience of just a hug. And if I hug you and I feel your beautiful fluffy hair on my shoulder, I just get to look in your eyes and say thank you for who you are and the work that you do. Let's change some lives.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and you can co-regulate through the screen, but you can co-regulate even better when you're actually in the room.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Mm-hmm. Big time. You know, the way you talk about the world, Joanna, I would call you a business shaman. Tell me more. Because spiritual people like us who have a zone of genius or a zone of excellence in business, in helping people be better at their craft, at their vocation, at their job. What a what a gift for us and and for everyone who gets to experience us being a mirror that whatever they want to create is possible and they could be the best version of themselves. And not everybody does that from a place of groundedness or a relationship with the cycles of their body and the earth, and from a spiritual perspective. And I don't know where some of this stuff comes from with me sometimes because I'm super intuitive. But I think there's something there for you with being a business shaman. And I don't know if it's like an Instagram or a podcast or an event or a nickname, but uh I'll definitely take it.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I would it it resonates. So I'm gonna take it.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's like I went to the mountains deep in Mexico, and my god, my godmother was on the board of directors for this really amazing holistic immune system booster that comes from colostrum from mushrooms and eggs, and uh really incredible. And she was working so much during the day. She's like, come to Mexico with me, we're gonna have a good time. Uh, but she was working all day during the day. So I found one event that we could do at night, and we went into 20 miles deep into the forest in Mexico, and we were hosted by a family, and uh there were uh it was shamanic work, and we drank this honey wine and we went into this crazy cave thing where they lit the center of the room on fire, and you felt every emotion you could ever feel. And then we swam in the cenote's under the, you know, under the ground with the roots hanging down and the birds flying underground, and then they can find their way out. It was just a mystical experience. That's the word I was searching for. There's something mystical about the way you do business, and it's really, really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Well, thank you. It feels to me like we're sisters in that. Um, I do love strategy. I mean, uh, you know, I I absolutely love strategy, but that's only one small part of the bigger business picture.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Right. It's like when people say tip of the iceberg, but then you actually visualize the iceberg. And it's like, there's that little tip, which is the strategy. If here's I'm gonna help you be a better business owner, make more money, or like be a better coach. And then when like under the water, how many hundreds of miles deep do some of these icebergs go? That's yeah, that sometimes uncomfortable work that makes us that makes us better.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

It's so true. I always say to clients, sorry, not sorry. I mean, sorry, you're feeling uncomfortable right now, but really I'm not sorry. I'm so happy and excited.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yep. Yep, yeah. One of my friends says she's a coach. She goes, You don't pay me for my charming personality. I'm like, so good. So while we're laughing and having fun, and you pointed this out, not me. Tell us about your awful, awful headshot. And I hope you'll send me a picture of it from when you first started coaching.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, it's it's quite a sight to behold. So story cards. You're gonna send it to me, right? Maybe. No, no, no. I will. I will. I need to put it on the screen right now. So the the short story is that way back in the first years of my business, um, it was the first time I ever had a website and had, you know, picture of myself and all the things. I had a colleague and she said, I want you to meet this other colleague of mine. I think the two of you would connect really well and you know can help each other in your businesses and this, that, and the other thing. I got in touch with this other woman. And it was before the days of Zoom. It was just on the phone. And we got on the phone and we had this amazing colleague conversation. Had never met her before, but we just connected. We talked about all of the things, decided we were gonna support each other, had similar ideas about things. It was, it was really beautiful. And at the end, it was probably an hour-long conversation. At the end of the conversation, she said to me, I know we don't know each other very well, but I I want to tell you something because it feels really important. And I said, What? And she said, Well, I looked at your website, you know, a couple days before getting on the call. And I actually almost canceled this call. And I was like, What? What do you mean? And she goes, Well, you know, it's a little hard to say, but it's important for you to know your headshots make you look like the most unfriendly person in the world. You look like you're hiding.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Oh, babe.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

And it just who you are, after having had this conversation with you for an hour and sensing into who you are and your energy, it is the exact opposite of what you're projecting in your photograph. What a gift. I'll tell you, it was a gift, Alicia, but I will tell you for a split second, it was like I had been slapped in the face. I felt so much shame and embarrassment. And I knew that she was right. That photograph that I had, I was wearing a like a dark, I never wear suits, first of all. I was wearing a dark suit with shoulder pads. Like who was in the early aughts? Who was even wearing shoulder pads then? I don't know. But I was dark, I have dark hair, and I wasn't even looking at the camera. It was, it was the whole thing don't look at me, don't look at me, don't look at me. I do not want to be seen. And you're right, it was a gift because her saying that allowed me, thank God I didn't just write it off and decide she was, you know, I don't know what I can say on your podcast and ask. You know, like thank God I I took it in because what that made me realize was it wasn't just in my headshot that I had been hiding. It was in all of my business. That headshot was emblematic of even though I wanted so badly to be seen, I didn't want to be seen. I was terrified of it. And of course, as I looked deeper, you know, I have um Holocaust legacy, just a lot of ancestral, you know, things where, yeah, it would, it is scary to be seen. There has been trauma there. And that really led me on a path to work more deeply on those pieces so that I could, I mean, first and foremost, just have more freedom from it, but so that I could more deeply and fully allow myself to be seen in my business. And for anyone that's listening to this story, if there is some kind of recognition for yourself in this, like, oh, I do want so badly to be seen, but also I'm hiding in one way or another. You know, I just share the story to normalize the experience and to say, no matter what it is, like you can make friends with that fear. Um, and you can move forward.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Thank you for that. Thank you for your transparency and your vulnerability and for giving us a space to laugh at our past selves and honor our past selves and love and be gentle and caring with our past selves and how it really transfers into who we are, who we become, who we remember to be. Yeah. I've got a I've got a bad headshot story too, actually. Oh, what is it? Oh my gosh. When I was 16, 17 years old, I wanted to move to Los Angeles the second I got out of high school. And I needed headshots to pursue acting. And I found this place that this guy did headshots and I looked at his stuff and it looked fine, right? But I didn't have any perspective. I didn't know what like good headshots are supposed to look like. I didn't know what IMDB was. I didn't know any of that. This is in the late 90s. And I had this guy take my headshots and he goes, So, do you want me to do soft focus or regular? And I was like, What's the difference? He goes, Well, soft focus means, you know, you're not gonna have as much emphasis on any lines or wrinkles, or if you have a pimple or something like that. Okay, I was 17. All right. Like, how many lines or wrinkles did I have? Probably not very many. Maybe I had a zit. I don't know. But I said yes because of, you know, vanity. And I thought, oh, I should like if he's saying that's what everybody does, right? So I get these headshots done and I think they look really good. And I go to LA and I audition for that 70s show. And that's a crazy story, too, by the way, what happened at that audition. But in addition to what happened at that audition, after she's telling me every reason why she's never gonna put me on the show that had nothing to do with my acting, she says, and by the way, your headshot's blurry. And I was like, What do you mean? She's like, This is a blurry headshot. This is not in focus. I go, it's soft focus. And she's like, What is that?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

That's supposed to be a thing. I had blurry headshots my first year trying to make it in Hollywood. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Oh, it's so bad. That's really funny. That's amazing. It's amazing. I'll I'll briefly say because now everyone's probably curious. She said that she would never cast me because I look and sound just like the girl her boyfriend cheated on her with. And she said, I know. And she's like, Your audition was great. You were amazing. I know you're not the person. Who my boyfriend cheated on with. I know you're not her, but you remind me of her so much. I just don't want to spend another second with you. And then she goes, she turns to everybody and she goes, and this was where it was really cool and helped me so much. She said, I want everyone to know that if you don't get the part or if you get rejected, don't take it personally. I told her why I'm never gonna cast her, but most of the time you don't find out. So just know that it may not have anything to do with your beauty or your talent or even your positive energy. She thought I was very nice.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

That's amazing. That actually really is a gift to know that reflection is like a lot of the time it's not about you. We need that as entrepreneurs too. We do, we do.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Well, before we start to wrap up here, sweetheart, you had mentioned offline that you had a Bell's palsy diagnosis. And I want to know a little bit about that. As a cancer survivor, I talk a lot about wellness, and I can't imagine how that shook you and how you got through that. What was that about?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah. So this, I mean, this was back in my 20s. And I, it was before doing the work that I do now, but I had already been doing the work on the side. Let's put it that way. I'd been circling and doing women's ritual and like starting to coach people. And I knew that it was my sacred purpose. And yet I didn't leave my day job because, you know, fear. Yeah. And I had a master's degree, and it was more prestigious to be in the museum world. And so, you know, I went was going through my everyday life, every day, being part of me knowing that my life was kind of misaligned, but not doing anything, not being willing to do anything about it. And I woke up early one morning. I had to go into the office early because we were opening an exhibit and I wanted to get there to do whatever I was going to do. I can't remember. And I do remember being in a rush, going to the bathroom and feeling weird when I was brushing my teeth. But I didn't even look in the mirror. So I didn't know what was going on. Went to work, nobody was there, got behind the screen, doing my thing. And then as people were starting to pile into work, my friend who I didn't have an office, I was in a cubicle. My friend on the other side of the cubicle came to kibbutz with me, as she every day did. And the moment she looked at me, it was as if she had seen a ghost. And I was like, What's wrong? And she said, Joanna, I think you had a stroke. There's something really wrong with your face. And I ran to the bathroom and the whole left side of my face was paralyzed. My mouth was drooping, my eye was drooping. Um, it was as if I had two separate faces, you know, like those Halloween costumes where one side of the face is happy, the other side, you know, that's that is what I looked like. And I couldn't, I realized I couldn't close my eye, I couldn't open my mouth as much as I should. And it turns out that I had Bell's palsy, which is, you know, medically speaking, something happens with one of the facial nerves and it gets paralyzed. And I remember the doctor saying, you know, you need to take this medication, or else this may not get any better. And I happen to be a very vain person, and especially then I was 27 and I was even more vain. And I was said to myself, oh my gosh, I I don't I don't want to have this the rest of my life. But I also knew intuitively that the imbalance and the mismatch on my face had a lot to do with the mismatch of the life I was living. And I knew that if I just took the medication, I probably wouldn't do the inner work that I needed to do to create the alignment in my life. And so even though it was terrifying, I refused the medication. I did do acupuncture instead. It was my my first experience with acupuncture, and it was very intensive. But I also did the inner work. I did the inner work to really own the fact that my life as a museum curator, you know, it was time for me to move on for that. And it was time to take the leap into owning my own business and doing the work that I do now. And so that's what prompted me to that.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Wow, sweetheart. And how's your health? And how did you navigate working through that or overcoming it?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

It took, it took way longer than it would have if I took medication. I'll tell you that. I had to wear an eye patch for quite a long time. Um, people stared at me for a number of months on the street. I was living in New York City at the time, but I I feel I feel proud that I stayed the course and I did the work. And I will say, even now, you know, 20 plus years later, if I overwork, if I don't manage my stress in the ways that I need to, I will notice that things on the left side of my face start to get a little slower.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Wow. What an interesting if I can say this, tell me if you believe this to be true. It's almost like a spiritual choice to come into this body to learn the lesson that way. Because I believe that's true about me having had cancer.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

I I do believe that. I absolutely believe that. And for what you're saying, there's a whole other layer to that story, which I'll I'll just go ahead and I'll share it because it's kind of juicy. So it just so happens that the day that I woke up with Bell's palsy was spring equinox. And I was set that night to enact the myth of Persephone and Demeter in a ritual in front of many hundreds of people. And I was set to evoke Persephone, who in this myth she separates from her mother. She becomes this is a myth about many things, but my interpretation of it had always been that this is about Persephone individualizing from her mother, the dometer. Anyway, my mother was supposed to come to that ritual. And for me in my 20s, because my mother and I had always been so codependent, it was a lot about I am finally individuating as well. And when you know it, my mother had multiple sclerosis, which is a neuro neurological disease, and so much of my journey had been my body isn't yours. And I tried to like profess it in this big way, but my psyche wasn't ready to separate. And so it's like, nope, here's a neurological disease. We're not doing it like that.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

That's amazing. We have so much in common, Joanna. First of all, I don't know if you follow Asterian astrology. I've done two episodes on it. It's uh it's kind of an expansion of Vedic astrology, not that my astrologer would love me to explain it that way. But there's 27 stars, and I'm born under the star of Persephone, so I know a lot about her. And I have a Persephone sun and a Hades moon. I have the divine couple in my chart, which is a whirlwind of experiences and emotions for sure. But I get it, I get what you're saying. And my mother had multiple sclerosis as well, and that's not how she died. Uh, but it could have been contributed, she was hit by a car and killed. And often with MS, you tend to lose peripheral vision and you know, quick reactions and whatnot. So yeah, there's more to share, but just know that even you opening up about that, not just to me, but everyone who's with us today, each individual heart and soul who's listening to your story. And just we're so impressed and in awe and inspired. And thank you for choosing to be here in this beautiful body that is Joanna, and create the business and the life you've created, and to step away from something you spent so much time being educated on and devoting a life in New York City to building your gosh, your reputation on, and you are an artist through and through, and that's part of your shamanism as a business owner.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Thank you. I'm taking that straight into my heart.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

You're welcome, Angel. What's the best way for people to sample your work and get into your world?

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah, so the resistance archetype ebook is a great way to do that. We talked a lot today about fear. And sometimes we're scared of something and we just know we're scared of it. And we're gonna be like, okay, I'm scared of that. And then we can work with it that way. But a lot of times the fear is way sneakier. And instead of us being able to say, like, oh, I'm scared of making that video, or I'm scared of putting myself on a dating app, or whatever it is, we go into what I call resistance. We might step into the overwhelmed one and just get really overwhelmed and then we can't make the video, or we might step into the judge, the part of us that's like, oh, it's just so capitalist to make videos. I'm not gonna do that. Or we might step into the victim, like, oh, is me, whoa is me, I'm never gonna be able to make right. And so we wanna get to know our different resistance archetypes so that we can call out our fear in loving ways for sure, but so that we can be real about it and we can work to make better friends with it instead of being in all of those excuses.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Incredible. Well, the link to that will be in the description. And what are some other ways that people can work with you right now?

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Well, the next round of the Sacred Depths Transformational Practitioner training is starting soon. And that is a no stern stones left unturned training for coaches and therapists and leaders who want to go deeper with clients, who want to do somatic work with clients and fear work with clients. And it is just my absolute favorite program that I offer.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Incredible. How often do you do those cohorts in case someone's finding this later in the future?

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yep. We do them twice a year.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

Wonderful. Okay, darling. Well, on that note, is there anything we haven't touched on that you want to before we wrap up? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

I feel like we got to lots of juicy things. I've loved this conversation so much.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so grateful you said yes, that you created and co-created time with me to do this today. And I hope everybody dives into your world. No matter what you do for a living, go follow Joanna's podcast and read her book and remember more of who you are. Thank you, love. I'll talk to you soon. Be sure to connect with me at patreon.com forward slash the brilliance method. The only way I'll know if you're loving the show is if you leave a comment, five stars, and subscribe.