04 - Mental Health Breakthroughs: Sean Brock on Neurofeedback and Healing

In this episode of The Brain Collective Podcast, Maria and Melanie sit down with special guest Sean Brock, the head of a renowned clinic in Colorado and a licensed professional counsellor with a passion for the intersection of brain science and mental health.

Sean shares his journey into the world of neurofeedback, how it transformed his counseling practice, and the powerful impact of brain training on mental health. Together, they discuss the benefits of neurofeedback for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and trauma, and how it’s making a difference for clients across the globe.

Tune in to learn how neurofeedback can help you regulate your brainwaves, optimise mental well-being, and live a more balanced life. Whether you're dealing with mental health challenges or simply curious about the science of brain regulation, this episode is packed with valuable insights.

You can visit Neuro Colorado here : https://www.neurocolorado.com/

Listen now to hear Sean’s expert perspective on the future of neurostimulation and brain health.

Find out more information at our website

Edited with finesse by Mike at Making Digital Real

Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:03  
Maria, welcome to the brain collectives Podcast. I'm Maria and I'm Melanie. We're the founders of the brain collective in Harrogate. We've dedicated over 15 years to helping people re regulate their own brains through neurofeedback. Driven by our passion to help our families, when traditional medical approaches fell short.

Unknown Speaker  0:23  
We've trained with world renowned experts and remain committed to staying at the forefront of this field.

Unknown Speaker  0:32  
Hello and welcome to the fourth episode in our podcast series from the brain collective. I'm Maria and I'm Melanie, we are the founders. We've worked hard in the world of brain health and performance for over 15 years now, driven by a need to find great solutions to help our very own families. Was in Europe, treat back EEG technology, light and sound, and we strive to enable individuals to take control and live happier lives simply by influencing their very own brainwaves. We've gone above and beyond to source great guests for the show we hope to inspire, to educate and to showcase cutting edge technologies and solutions that are out there to solve some very tough challenges. So why not learn all about those things you can do to maximize your own brain

Unknown Speaker  1:28  
today, our very special guest on the show is Sean Brock. Sean is the head of a fantastic clinic based in Colorado. He is a licensed professional counselor by background and is deeply committed to the intersection of brain science and counseling. Sean, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me super excited to be here.

Unknown Speaker  1:55  
Perhaps, Sean, you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and about your background and how you ended up in the world of counseling, stroke, brain science, I am happy to Yeah. So a meandering journey for me to get to where I am today, but I have spent

Unknown Speaker  2:14  
many, many years working with with teenagers and different groups of people, and I started out actually doing lots of work in the backcountry, leading backpacking trips, guiding backpacking trips, and being a guide for wilderness therapy based programs. And so I got to observe, before I was a therapist, I got to observe a lot of the therapeutic process that was happening in these very intense

Unknown Speaker  2:42  
week long experiences for teenagers.

Unknown Speaker  2:47  
I worked at a residential treatment facility as well,

Unknown Speaker  2:52  
where, again, I got to see like all of these kids living in this place with therapists and staff building relationships. And so we got to see counseling work

Unknown Speaker  3:03  
in community or in these intensive experiences,

Unknown Speaker  3:07  
I went back to school to get a counseling career after that, and one of the things I noticed

Unknown Speaker  3:13  
in in school was that I felt like counseling was less effective than it maybe could be when we looked at sort of the techniques that were out there, I was in school and was thinking, is this all there is like, this? Is it like? And that's not to say that the field isn't amazing and that we can't do amazing work, but I just wondered, like, is this all that there is, is this all we can do? I was fortunate to have one of my professors was training Neurofeedback and did a weekend seminar on the topic, and I took it and it things started to click for me. It's like, Oh, finally, it isn't just about talking or emotions or things like that, but actually all of the work that we do with counseling is sort of

Unknown Speaker  4:01  
run on the on the hardware of the brain. And so understanding the brain, understanding some neuroscience, and the overlap between the organ itself and our experience of the world and ourselves was, was really, really cool, really important. So that, that was the thing that kind of opened my eyes, and then, and then I ended up interning at a Neurofeedback clinic, actually the one that I work at now, or I own now, and a few years later, purchased it from the owner when she retired, and that was kind of that So Sean, how? How do you think neurofeedbacks changed your practice? That's a huge question. I'll try not to drone on and off wherever with this, but it's been really powerful to be able to look at,

Unknown Speaker  4:51  
look at the brain doing quantitative EEGs. So that's our

Unknown Speaker  4:57  
that's our assessment tool. You guys use that assessment tool.

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
Where we can look at how much electricity the brain is producing in certain frequencies in different parts of the brain, and we compare that to a normative database for, like an average. So for me, it would be like other 47 year old myth, right? Like, how does your brain compare to the other other guys like that? And then we can see sort of the deviations from the norm, and when those differences from the average match up with symptomology that somebody has. So we sort of know some specific patterns that that we expect to correlate, whether it's ADHD or anxiety or depression or OCD, different things. When we see that in real time, we can bring it back to the to our clients and show them and say, Hey, of course you're feeling like this. Of course you're feeling overwhelmed, or you struggle with the tension, or do you feel really low energy and it's hard to get going in the morning, things like that. And so first off, just the assessment process

Unknown Speaker  6:02  
is really validating to people, because maybe for the ADHD folks, it's like, maybe their whole life, they've been told, Well, you should just try harder. What's wrong with you? Pay attention, focus, whatever. And then they can see it on the screen. It's like, I'm not making it up. Like, this is real and it's not my fault, right? It just, it just is, I think, I think that's very powerful. It's very powerful, isn't it? It's so powerful, yeah, we find it particularly

Unknown Speaker  6:33  
useful and really powerful when, when we talk to a lot of the male population, Sean as well, who really are resistant to go and see a doctor to say they've got a real problem. They're struggling with depression, anxiety, burnout, and I think they'd rather come and sit in our seat and spend hours just looking at their engine, looking at their what we call maps, just to sort of pinpoint that they're not making it up. Because I think a lot people just think that they're told that they're that you know they're they're broken, or they you know that they've caused it themselves, and it's all down to them, and they've just got to pull themselves together. It's very hard to pull yourself together when you feel like that. I absolutely agree. I think neurofeedback, I think is a excellent modality for many people, maybe most people that we see in our clinic, but I do think that men in particular, I think it's like a really great gateway into mental health treatment for men, especially if there's this, this cultural belief or personal belief that emotions or feelings or mental health treatment is weak or feminine or something like that, to be able to see like objective evidence that says, Oh yeah, you should feel bad. And then even further than that, if we're doing neurofeedback training, and I'm and I say, hey, I want you to practice. I want you to actually feel terrible right now. So go ahead, get all the anxiety, or all the shame or whatever it is that you feel, and let's look at your brain waves, right and then now I want you to imagine that you're chilling on a beach, you're in a hammock. It's super soothing. Everything's amazing. Just Just pretend, and they start to feel good. And then we just look at the brain waves, where we'll say, Look, they're totally different. So the way you feel, the way you're using your brain, like we have objective data that that it changes the way your brain is functioning. And so there we get way more buy in, of like, Oh, so you actually want me to feel good, right? Yeah, because it makes your brain work better. And they're like, oh, I can do that, you know? And then they're in, as opposed to, I need you to feel better, because, you know, happy you is a better you. They're like, No, I just have to try harder. Sure, we very much share a lot of the same technology that we use. Even though you're out in Denver and we're here in Harrogate in North Yorkshire, we have a lot of common things that we use together. And

Unknown Speaker  9:20  
just for the listener. Can you sort of explain the word? The word neuro feedback is a bit of a funny word. People don't really understand it.

Unknown Speaker  9:32  
Yep. So neurofeedback is a subtype of biofeedback, and some people are more familiar with heart rate variability or skin temperature, like everybody's had those, like mood rings, right, that change colors, or the little cards you put your finger on. And if you're stressed out, it's blue, and if you're relaxed, it's the green or orange or something like that.

Unknown Speaker  9:55  
Those are all simple bio feedback tools or ways to use.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
Use something outside of ourselves, some version of technology, to give us information about our bodies and how we're doing, and then learn to control our bodies. So neurofeedback is EEG biofeedback, and what we're doing is we're using

Unknown Speaker  10:17  
basically real time brainwave data on the screen to give us information about what our brains doing. And then we set up some like a reward based system and opera conditioning based system that says, hey, if you, if you get your brain to do this certain thing, the computer is going to be but you or the character on the screen is going to move, and it's basically giving you a thumbs up, right? Hey, you're doing it. And when you're not getting the reward, it's saying you're not doing it. And the whole goal is to learn, hey, how do I self regulate? How do I use my brain in a specific way that's going to counter my symptoms, right? So if I'm feeling anxious, that's a problem for me, and I've tried to reduce some fast brainwave frequencies that are contributing to that. Every time I create less than a certain amount, the computer beeps or my character moves, and it's basically saying, Hey, you're doing it like your brain is calming down. Hey, notice how you feel when you're getting a lot of these rewards? And they're like, Oh yeah, I guess I feel a little bit more chill. Like, yes, exactly. And so we just keep doing that and keep doing that, and keep doing that until they get really good at using their brain in a way that makes them feel better, reduces their anxiety, and then they know how to do it. So it's not magic, but it's really cool way to learn to control your brain in a real, targeted way. It's very much training, isn't it? It's not it's much treating. It's training, and it's allowing the brain to have the permission to self regulate and to and to improve. And I think the reason I love it so much is is whereas a lot of the other biofeedback techniques do require some degree of cognitive control. Eugene Neurofeedback doesn't require cognitive control. Somebody can. It's happening all almost to a degree below conscious level. They can influence it cognitively. But a lot of it is happening because the brain wants to do the best it can do.

Unknown Speaker  12:21  
I yeah, I think you're right. I think my, I guess my perspective, is that that is happening in the more cognitive control we can add to it, the more even more powerful it can become. If the reward that we're getting so with operant conditioning, if the reward is rewarding enough then, yeah, the brain just wants to, wants to get better. But if I can also cognitively learn, hey, this is what this feels like, or looks like, and I like it,

Unknown Speaker  12:53  
then I can choose it on purpose as well. And the thing I love about neurofeedback is we're not, we're not changing you in that. We're taking away brain states that you've already had. We're just creating a new one that you don't know how to access very well, and giving your system an opportunity to access this other state that feels so much better than being depressed or anxious or whatever, whatever we're treating sure tell us about the population of people that come to see you. Okay? We we see a pretty wide range of folks at our clinic, so we're all licensed professional counselors at our clinic, so our emphasis is on mental health. Neurofeedback can be quite effective for things outside of the mental health field, but we're not licensed to treat it, and so in in the States at least, we're sort of limited to our licensure. And so we treat folks with mental health concerns, and we start at about age seven and go sort of all the way through end of life care for folks, and

Unknown Speaker  14:07  
we see a wide range of symptomology, and I would say in our kiddos, it's usually anxiety, sensory processing stuff and ADHD are kind of our main topics that we're dealing with in within that you may have some oppositional defiance disorder and some, some things like that, but they, they all kind of go together as we get older. It's similar things, but OCD, anxiety, depression, ADHD as well. And then we do, we do crossover some into traumatic brain injury work, especially on the mental health side of that. So the anxiety and depression, the brain fog and things that come with it, we may be effective in treating the other things as well, but that's a side effect that we can't claim that we're treating. But yeah.

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
So I would say that that's most of our population. I think neuro feedback is quite effective for folks on the autistic spectrum as well, but that's just not a population that we're as skilled with working with them. So that isn't, isn't a group that we work with that much, but I think neuro is great for that.

Unknown Speaker  15:21  
So that's a really broad spectrum of people. We we also deal with a very similar population, although we do, we do venture a little bit earlier. So we'll, we'll do children from three years old, because of some of the technology we use in in our in our clinic and Harrogate, we cover most of those things, but we also do a lot of work on head injuries, because head injuries create a whole host of problems. Yeah, not only functional but but obviously there are a lot of emotional challenges that come with it as well. I

Unknown Speaker  15:57  
think one of the great things, one of the great things about neurofeedback as well as it's not diagnosis specific. So, you know, doesn't really that the it's not about making a diagnosis, that you're just treating the whole brain and the person globally. And I think that's, yeah, it's really, as you know, you're you're treating the person holistically, because our brains and our bodies are connected, and we are one so, you know, doesn't necessarily need a diagnosis in order to access neurofeedback. Melon. I think that's totally true. I actually love that as well. And yeah, in in counseling world, at least, there's very specific criteria that land you very specific diagnoses, and they're typically all based on symptoms. So if you have five of these seven symptoms, then you have this diagnosis, but you may also have five of these other symptoms, and you have this diagnosis, and then this one and this one. And so people may come in with five diagnoses, and then we look at the person's EEG, and you're like, Well,

Unknown Speaker  17:02  
there's one thing wrong, you know, like, there's one thing that's really out of whack in of you know, of course, it, you know, all of these diagnos seem like they fit, but they're, it's not five things. It's, it's one thing. Or,

Unknown Speaker  17:19  
especially with ADHD, people come in and say, we have, like, basically one diagnosis for ADHD. We differentiate, you know,

Unknown Speaker  17:30  
hyperactive versus inattentive or mixed types. But when we look at the EEG, it's like, well, this can present as like, five or six different brain patterns or a mix of multiple and so we would say, like, ADHD is, isn't one thing, you know, or is it? We can't really break it down into just, you know, hyperactive or inattentive, or a mix. It's like, No, this is a temporal lobe alpha, or you have spindly beta, or, you know, whatever these. And I think it's a much more nuanced presentation of what is really going on. Well, we don't need to call it ADHD at all and say all of these would create a situation where it's hard to pay attention.

Unknown Speaker  18:14  
I don't know about you in the state, Sean, but ADHD is a massive topic in the UK at the minute, what lots been written about? It doesn't exist, or it exists in certain forms. Or, you know, it's all about us using technology and watching Tik Tok all the time. So it is absolutely a massive debate at the minute. But what we do see for sure is that both children and adults come through our clinic who are really struggling, and these aren't making they're not making it up. They are really having a hard time. And it changes as someone gets older, and that's our experience of it. It very much changes its presentation.

Unknown Speaker  18:56  
Yep, I totally agree, and it's a it's a huge topic here,

Unknown Speaker  19:02  
you know, there's lots of folks on stimulant medications right now, like, you know,

Unknown Speaker  19:09  
I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but it feels like 20% of the population or so is diagnosed with ADHD. And I think there's probably lots and lots of different reasons as to why

Unknown Speaker  19:21  
we often get people come in who are diagnosed with ADHD, and it's like you have an anxiety disorder.

Unknown Speaker  19:27  
This is not ADHD. You can't pay attention because your mind is going so fast or so focused on things that aren't present. And we wouldn't call that ADHD. What we would say this is problematic, and it's impacting your ability to attend to stuff that's boring right in front of you. Now, I agree that's a common thing we've seen as well, that actually it's actually somebody who's massively over aroused and agitated who can't pay attention because they're not in an optimal state to pay attention. We can't concentrate if we're anxious. You know.

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
And there was a so I think, you know, that's, that's something we see regularly as well. I can, you know, I can wonder, I think there needs to be lots more research. But if I, if I look at

Unknown Speaker  20:12  
historically, for humans like we're asked to consume and process massive amounts of information today that is totally unique to human history, and

Unknown Speaker  20:27  
we're also asked to sit still and consume massive amounts of information, and this is it's just so interesting and unique, and it doesn't surprise me that we're having some problems with it, whether our brain is saying, Stop, let's check out, let's space out too much, or we're moving to anxiety disorders where it's like it's so much, and now I can't stop, right? I can't get out of this loop. And so my mind is going crazy because I I feel like every threat globally, at every moment is actually a threat to me, right? It's like first time in human history, you know that we've, we've felt like anything bad that's happened in the world is actually impacting me. So

Unknown Speaker  21:14  
I do think technology is impacting and influencing attention and anxiety and depression and all of these things. But is it causing ADHD? I don't know. And in some ways, I'm like, it doesn't matter. People can't pay attention, right? They're having mental health problems right now. And so how do we help people get out of it? And just asking that question, then Sean, so of all the hundreds of people you've seen in practice, what would your advice be for the listener who's sitting there and really struggling with things? I think the main, the main thing I want everyone to know is that how you're feeling now doesn't have to be how you feel in the future. You

Unknown Speaker  21:56  
humans are insanely adaptable, and we can change. We know with neuroplasticity that our brains can change and we learn. We also know that that our past and our past experience don't have to dictate how we experience the world today, and there's lots of ways that we can change, but asking for help or go into professionals who are really good at helping you change how you feel. Yeah, like we should, we should all be doing

Unknown Speaker  22:29  
I think that's absolutely fantastic advice, Sean, because

Unknown Speaker  22:34  
we've all got the ability to do better, to feel better. What do you think technology wise? So we've both been practicing for around about the same time, quite a lot of years. Yeah, what do you think has been the biggest game changer in our field? In my experience, I feel like

Unknown Speaker  22:54  
the addition of neurostimulation to to Neurofeedback

Unknown Speaker  23:01  
has been the biggest game changer. And

Unknown Speaker  23:05  
neurofeedback is excellent at teaching you how to learn a new brain state, practice new skills repeatedly. It's not necessarily

Unknown Speaker  23:17  
great at getting you unstuck quickly from a certain situation, it can take some time. It doesn't necessarily like provide the amount of energy or support maybe that your brain might need to make a specific change, in particular for our practice,

Unknown Speaker  23:39  
because we're trying to integrate counseling techniques and skills with neurofeedback or neurostimulation, we're actually able to use neurostimulation to help somebody

Unknown Speaker  23:54  
enter into like a brain state that is more helpful for therapy to happen. And so let's say somebody's highly anxious, and we want to look at some really challenging things in their past that might be really upsetting to them, and so it's hard to access or hard to go there, but if we can use neuro stimulation to calm their nervous system down in the moment, then we can have easier access to these challenging things without Feeling so dysregulating, and actually get a lot of counseling work done at the same time. So we're able to use neuro stimulation in multiple different ways in our practice, and that that has been really transformative and change sort of the speed at which we can do our do our work. Can I just ask a question on behalf of the listeners, I think so. For other people, use the word or hear the word neuro stimulation and think of electric shock treatment. Yes. See One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, all that thing. Yeah. And you know, in the UK, ect still exists.

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
Tests as a treatment here and for for really tough cases where they just don't know the catatonic depressions. But for the listener, the difference is pretty huge, isn't it? It's huge. There are multiple types of neuro stimulation from binaural beats that people you know that you can listen to on YouTube. By the way, if anyone is listening to binaural beats, make sure you have headphones in, because it doesn't work if you're just listening to speakers. But binaural beats boat stimulation, right? Flashing like flashing lights. I guess those are the those are the main two pulse electromagnetic frequency. So a lot of chiropractors will have PEMF or different sort of holistic medicine folks, you know. And then there's different types of electric stimulation. And so when we're using electric stimulation, the goal is to the way I like to think about it, is the brain is an electrochemical organ, right? So it speaks in electricity. And so when you're introducing a small amount of electricity to the brain at a certain frequency, then the neurons in the brain are like, Ah, you're speaking my noise like, I totally understand what you're saying. And then your neurons start to mimic or match the stimulation that you're getting. So it's an entrainment device where we're saying, Hey, do this fire at 13 or 15 times a second instead of 30 times a second. Let's calm down. And then the brain will just starts to practice doing what you're asking it to do when you're looking at things like ect. I'm not an expert in ECT, but my understanding is we're essentially attempting to annihilate neural networks with electricity so that there's a hope of rebuilding something different in the future. And so those are disintegration techniques. So ECT is more of a disintegration technique so that you can reintegrate, whereas the mild neurostimulation that we're doing is more of an entrainment device, where it's coaxing the brain into a new behavior or practicing or strengthening something that it's not very good at. So yes, they both use electricity, but the intensity and the goal of treatment is totally different from one another.

Unknown Speaker  27:27  
Yeah, we see fantastic results using tiny, tiny, micro currents, yeah, yeah, it's really powerful. And I think people are folks for us are really surprised that, oh, I was scared. This is no big deal. It doesn't hurt, you know? It's like, fine. And they're like, Wow,

Unknown Speaker  27:48  
I feel really clear or calm or focused or whatever it is, right now. I'm like, Yeah, I know. And so this is, this is, and we want to help your brain learn how to be here, like all the time, not not just while you're receiving the treatment. I think one of the great things about the neuro stimulation that we both use is that even just putting some PMF on the gut can have a profound impact on the brain. You know that that importance of, you know, the vagus nerve is very, very at the forefront of, you know, lots of technology at the moment, and it's such a an amazing way in to help the brain to function better, as well as directly working with the brain, per se,

Unknown Speaker  28:36  
that has been one of the more surprising things for me to learn. I don't I'm a counselor. And so, like, gut health, inflammation, like,

Unknown Speaker  28:46  
you know, the vagus nerve from, you know, from the gut to the brain. Like, this is not,

Unknown Speaker  28:52  
this is not taught in mental health, you know, grad school. And so,

Unknown Speaker  28:59  
yeah, the seeing the impact of leaky gut, or gut health and neuro inflammation from the gut causing neuroinflammation, and that has been quite, quite interesting, and have seen some really, really great

Unknown Speaker  29:16  
changes in people's EEGs when we're only doing EMF on the gut, like that's the only thing, and then you look at their brain later, and it's totally different. Oh my gosh. So anyways, really, yeah, really cool and kind of outside of the box. For me, I think it's fantastic. So Sean, if someone comes to your practice and they're dealing with something that's quite tough, and you're going to help them out. You're going to help them get past some of those awful symptoms they've got. How quickly do you think people will feel different going through the process? I think it depends on what. Of course, it depends like is, like I have to preempt any answer with, I don't really know. I.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
And it depends. But if we're doing neuro stimulation, I would expect them to feel

Unknown Speaker  30:09  
something in the first session, right? I would expect them to feel, Oh, this is different, or there's a level of clarity or calmness or something in that first session, if we're working as someone with a lot of like, PTSD and complex trauma dissociative disorders, their connection or awareness of their body may not be real great. And so they might say, I don't notice anything, right? But then you ask their partner how they were the rest of the day, and they're like, they were so chill. It was amazing, you know, like, and so sometimes, for those folks, it takes a little longer, but I would say in the first, the first session or two, you should notice something. It won't last, right? It takes repeated practice for the brain to get good at this. But yeah, there's, there's often, like, immediately some some hope that gets created from feeling better in the moment. If you're doing neurofeedback, my experience is that it takes much longer for somebody to start noticing differences. And I don't know, maybe not everyone agrees with me on this, but I'd say it's usually about 10 sessions or so before somebody, before somebody starts to notice, you know what? Like, I guess I have been more calm, or it got less upset in the situation that would really be bothering me, or whatever.

Unknown Speaker  31:33  
And so we often start with neuro stimulation, and we may continue that for the whole treatment plan, or we may go half neuro stimulation so they feel better fast, and their brain kind of practices what we want them to do. And then we may transition to Neurofeedback so that they they take over sort of that control of self regulation themselves a little bit more moving forward.

Unknown Speaker  31:56  
So I know there's some fantastic work being done at the minute out in places like South Korea and with

Unknown Speaker  32:06  
AI learning about, you know, how our brains run. But if you had, if you could get your little crystal ball out of your desk Sean and say, right, this is what you know, this is what it's going to look like in the future. This is what it's going to be like to really help people who are struggling with mental health issues, with, you know, arousal, challenges, all those things do. Where do you see the future?

Unknown Speaker  32:37  
Would I look what I look to the future? I think that neuro stimulation, especially electrical neurostimulation, will become more and more routine. But I'm also, as a counselor, a pretty firm believer that

Unknown Speaker  32:52  
if you change the brain, it will change how someone feels, but also, if you change how someone feels, change their thinking, change the impact that the past has on their present that also changes the hardware of the brain. And so it goes both directions. And so my hope is that as our understanding of the brain and neural networks and how to manipulate them changes, there's also this big push for

Unknown Speaker  33:20  
more traditional mental health techniques being integrated into that process so people can process through past traumas, so that people can assimilate this physiological change that's happening with belief systems and beliefs about self and beliefs about the past and is it okay to feel good? I've always been told like I wasn't worth it, and so I've never I actually don't know how to feel positive, right? And so I think the integration component, or the conscious component, more traditional counseling approach also has to be like, really integrated in there, so that we're changing not just the brand itself, but we're also changing how we think about ourselves and the world around us, how we experience ourselves and others around us, and putting those things together, I think, is where we're going to see the most powerful change? That's such a fantastic answer, because here in the UK, we are really struggling with our mental health system, with helping people who are clinical grade, anxiety, depression, PTSD is really tough. And you talk to many psychiatrists here, they say they have very little in their kit bag. So the big the big push for us here in the UK is to try and see if we can integrate some of these techniques quite quickly to really relieve some pressure.

Unknown Speaker  34:56  
And one the trend has been, okay. People are.

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
Used to having a national help service that will provide at the point of need, and it is really clicking.

Unknown Speaker  35:09  
So, you know, you'll often see a lot of people who've been through the traditional medical medical model, and they can't access it, or can't get access to it, and it's in, it's it's pretty sad, but, you know, it's very rewarding for us, because there's actually a few very simple techniques to make people feel a whole lot better. And as you say quite quickly, yeah, I think, I

Unknown Speaker  35:35  
think for most people, there's a lot of hope that this is not a you're

Unknown Speaker  35:39  
not going to counseling for five years, you know for this, but it's also not as simple as take this pill and all your problems go away. And so

Unknown Speaker  35:51  
if, if it's taken

Unknown Speaker  35:54  
40 years to to get you where you are

Unknown Speaker  35:59  
and for your nervous system to learn how to behave and respond in a particular way, and the way it's done that feels bad

Unknown Speaker  36:06  
to unwind that is not two appointments, you know, or it's not taking a pill, right? It's like we're trying to undo 40 years of learning, and our brains get so good at doing what we ask them to do, right? They're very efficient. And it's like, Hey, if you felt like you've needed to be anxious to survive your whole life, then your brain is extremely good at feeling anxious, because you've asked it to do that consciously or unconsciously, and then to say, Hey, now stop it. The brain is like, we have like, little physical neural networks that that are super kindled or hyper kindled, right to behave in this way, and now we have to teach them to do something different. So it does take some time to create new neural networks and to to weaken, sort of the the kindling of the anxiety networks and re establish something new. But we're not also talking about, like, years and years and years of work to do that. So when you look at like it took 40 years to get here, and then we're saying, Oh, it takes like, 40 sessions, you know, 20 weeks or something, to get out of it. I'm like, that's massively efficient in my mind,

Unknown Speaker  37:21  
when you're looking at National Mental Health, when you're looking at, you know, the insurance programs in the States, maybe they'll pay for six sessions or eight sessions or something like that, and you're like, it's it's ineffective, and they're

Unknown Speaker  37:37  
the goal of that type of treatment is to make you just above, I can't function, right? And then we're going to call it a success, right? Because we we changed it from mental health to behavioral health, right? Can you behave appropriately? Like, can you show up for work?

Unknown Speaker  37:55  
And then we're good. And I'm like, like, I think everyone would say this is a bad system like this isn't that's not quite enough. But also,

Unknown Speaker  38:07  
if our if the best we have is five years of counseling that is a crushing financial burden to insurance companies into national health health care system, right? This wildly inefficient. And so I think you're right, like, how do we how do we really increase the efficiency and efficacy of treatment? And for me,

Unknown Speaker  38:29  
it's working on the brain and it's working on the beliefs so the software and the hardware at the same time as best we can to maximize that efficiency.

Unknown Speaker  38:39  
I absolutely love how you describe that, Sean, and I think you know for most people, they get it. Sean, what are you? If you could pinpoint something you are really proud of, the thing that keeps you getting out of bed in the morning, hanging those electrodes up, putting that sticky paste in that cap, and putting the lectures on that person's head, what you're really proud of.

Unknown Speaker  39:08  
I have always been passionate about, honestly, like relationships with people are really meaningful to me. Human connection is really meaningful to me, and to be able to use relationship and human connection as a tool for changing people's lives. It's really, really meaningful to me and that

Unknown Speaker  39:34  
that comes as a practitioner

Unknown Speaker  39:38  
with my clients, but that also comes as a as a business owner, with my employees as well. So I love mentoring and training, teaching and like trying to create an environment in our office that

Unknown Speaker  39:53  
people love to come to work, even though the work can be really hard, we all feel really passionate about what we get.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
To do. And so for me, I think that's the thing I'm most proud of, is creating an environment for myself and my staff, where we love to get to

Unknown Speaker  40:12  
pour into and care for and journey with people that are

Unknown Speaker  40:20  
taking their life by the reins, you know, and trying to, like, change how they're feeling and get better.

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
Totally concur with that. Because I think one thing that we often talk about with our clients is, yes, this is a this is a technological practice, but at the same time, we walk that journey with you, you know, we, we strongly believe in working with people in the room, you know, I know there are some practitioners who do Neurofeedback remotely, but I don't think it has the impact that it can have when you are walking alongside that person on that journey and providing that sort of emotional support that as a as a therapist, you do, and when we're not psychotherapists, we're not trained in that room. We don't purport to be, but we are empathic human beings who live life and have, you know, have lots of skills, but you know, if we need psychological support outside, then we we we sign post, or we make sure they're getting the appropriate thing? But even just even being

Unknown Speaker  41:24  
you know that that that walking that journey is key, is a crucial component to the technological approaches that we both use,

Unknown Speaker  41:35  
I totally agree in

Unknown Speaker  41:38  
I feel like most,

Unknown Speaker  41:40  
I would say most damage to us as people, um, comes through relationship and through other people. Most of our hurts and arms and I think most healing should come in the context of relationships as well. We can use technology in those relationships, but to to to detach

Unknown Speaker  42:03  
humanity, to detach relationship and connection from the healing process. Feels really disjointed to me, and unhelpful, and so

Unknown Speaker  42:14  
that I feel like that is a is a key component

Unknown Speaker  42:18  
to human growth, but also healing as well.

Unknown Speaker  42:24  
So Sean, what is your message to our listeners? Do you think? What would you what? What would that take away from this conversation be?

Unknown Speaker  42:34  
My message to your listeners is,

Unknown Speaker  42:38  
if you want to feel better, you can't

Unknown Speaker  42:41  
go. Get help. Go and not even help. Like, your help lifts. Like, go seek a professional, right? I don't do my own taxes because I'm not good at it, right? Like, so I go to an expert to say, hey, like, how do I do this? Help me organize this, right? This isn't, this isn't complicated. In that sense, it's hey, if I want to feel better, like I'm gonna go, go to somebody who's an expert in helping people feel better.

Unknown Speaker  43:10  
And so I would say, if you want to, it's in your power. Sean, how do people get in touch with you? How do they reach out and get that help? Yeah, so we do for neurofeedback, neurostimulation. For us, it's in person, and so if they're in the Front Range, if they're in the Denver area, you know you can, you can go to our website. It's neurocolorado.com

Unknown Speaker  43:35  
Our phone number is there. My email is just Sean at neuro color. We also do video counseling. And so if you know, if anybody wants to do counseling, we can do that by video. The neuro part won't be part of it, but, yeah, we're happy to, happy to do that as well. So

Unknown Speaker  43:54  
I've just come up with a new product. Sean,

Unknown Speaker  43:58  
yeah, we're going to get you online to help some of our clients here, we're putting like that's on with them,

Unknown Speaker  44:06  
and then I show up on the screen, yeah, oh,

Unknown Speaker  44:11  
that's absolutely brilliant. Sean, it's been an absolute delight to have you on the show today. And we are so passionate what can be achieved with you know, some fantastic technology.

Unknown Speaker  44:26  
People don't really know about it. They don't a lot of people don't understand how to access it. It's out there, and it's got really good evidence, really good science behind it. So I'm so pleased you came on today. I know you're an amazing practitioner, and people are very lucky to have you in the Denver area. Very lucky.

Unknown Speaker  44:50  
Thank you, Maria and Melanie, I've had a blast talking with you guys. I think the brand Collective is incredible. And like i just i.

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
I just really hope for the for the folks near you that I

Unknown Speaker  45:05  
don't know they can be encouraged, that there's some freedom to sort of step out of, maybe some some cultural norms that say this is something that you should deal with behind closed doors. And I just hope that folks will come and talk in with you and find some help. You know that things can be different. So

Unknown Speaker  45:24  
we've always, we thoroughly enjoyed it because we we always love talking about neurofeedback and the work we all do. It's done. I can talk forever about it.

Unknown Speaker  45:33  
Oh, that. That's absolutely brilliant. And Sean will hopefully meet you in person. I don't know, yeah, that would be brilliant. So that's the end of our podcast today, and I really hope you got something out of it. Please reach out to Sean or ourselves. We're at the brain collective. It's we're all over the internet. If you just type in your feedback or EEG, we probably will pop up first on Google. So it's the brain collective.co.uk,

Unknown Speaker  46:04  
send us a message. We really like talking to people, and it's absolutely free to talk to us, so please send a message out. Let's see if we can help you.

Unknown Speaker  46:14  
Take care. Everyone. Take care. See you in Episode Five. Bye, bye.

Unknown Speaker  46:21  
Thanks for tuning in to the brain collective podcast. If you're curious about how Neurofeedback and neuromodulation can help you or your loved ones live a more balanced, fulfilling life, visit us@thebraincollective.co.uk

Unknown Speaker  46:34  
See you in the next episode you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai