ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 31 | Transforming Leaders Through Deeper Discipleship
Pastor Tommy Adams' journey from a broken home to becoming a Christian leader is a testament to the transformative power of the Gospel. Through candid discussions and heartfelt stories, Tommy reveals how a supportive faith community guided him toward a calling in ministry, teaching him to embrace opportunities with courage even when he felt unprepared. The essence of authentic discipleship and effective leadership comes to life as Daniel and Tommy explore how --- investing deeper in individuals within faith communities can lead to profound spiritual journeys.
Our conversation takes a focused look at the disconnect between traditional church practices and the relational model of discipleship found in the Book of Acts. We examine how Jesus' personal connections with his disciples serve as a blueprint for fostering genuine relationships that go beyond superficial interactions. By shifting our focus as ministry leaders from consumer-driven programs to authentic community building, churches can create environments where spiritual growth and discipleship flourish.
This episode challenges us to reevaluate conventional pastoral care and embrace a model that empowers congregants to support one another, reaffirming the core mission of making disciples. From fostering smaller, connected groups to encouraging active participation, we discuss how leaders can empower others to engage fully in their faith. Join us as we uncover the emotional challenges and rewards of genuine ministry and the vital role of relational discipleship in nurturing a vibrant church community.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome back to the History Makers Leadership Podcast. My name is Daniel and I'm incredibly excited to be joined by my pastor and dear friend, tommy Adams. Tommy, it's great to have you, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely so, tommy. We love to to have you, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely so, tommy. We love to sit down with Christian leaders and think through things, talk through things so that we can be faithful to live out our calling and our identity in Christ in our life, in our leadership. So would you mind just sharing a little bit of your background, some of your story, with us, so we can kind of know where you're coming from?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I didn't grow up in church. I grew up in a very broken environment. I grew up in a broken home. My parents were divorced when I was five years old. I moved away from my dad at five and that was kind of painful and traumatic. And then I saw brokenness in my family. I have a history of addiction in my family. Alcoholism runs deep in my family and it touched me when I was a teenager even. And then brokenness due to abuse. I've been in some very abusive environments and so I did not grow up in church.
Speaker 3:I grew up knowing very little about God, about Jesus. I knew nothing about the Bible and about church, and so, you know, at 19 years old, ended up going to a Methodist university in North Georgia and didn't even want to be there. It's the only school that accepted me, which tells you a little bit about my intelligence. But anyways, I met a group of students there who really loved the Lord and just spent a lot of time with me, loving me and, in spite of who I was, in spite of my background, shared the gospel with me constantly. I met the campus pastor there. His name was Tim Harrison. He really invested in me as well and took the time to share the love of Jesus with me. And at 19 years old, I gave my life to Jesus. And it wasn't long after that that I felt the call to ministry. As a matter of fact, when I first gave my life to Christ, I didn't know there was a difference. I thought everybody who was saved was in the ministry, and so every time they asked me to stand up and share or pray or do whatever, even if I didn't know what I was doing, I said yes, I just gave you know, jesus, my my unconditional yes.
Speaker 3:And I remember that campus. Remember, uh, that campus pastor inviting me to go on my first mission trip to Mexico to help build it, the foundations of a church. And, uh, he said that that you know, they would figure out the money portion of it. I just needed to go. And so I went down and it I was. I remember the day it happened. I was standing in a ditch digging the footings for a foundation when I heard the voice of God for the very first time in my life. It wasn't audible, but I knew it was God speaking to me and basically he said this is the life that I've called you to. And I was sure he was calling me to dig ditches for the rest of my life, like I didn't know what that meant. But I gave him my unconditional yes.
Speaker 3:And then, shortly after that, I started serving in youth ministry. I was teaching confirmation classes in a Methodist church and I had not been confirmed in a Methodist church myself. And I was, you know, shortly after that, called to be an interim youth pastor, and then a youth pastor, and then, you know, was ordained as a pastor not long after that. It was probably happened faster than I would have liked it, but God had a purpose and a plan. I hadn't gone to seminary at that point, I was still a new believer and I was an ordained pastor. Uh, so that was the path that God um has had me on, uh, ever since. Is is I learned by doing, and um, you know just, I remember the first church that I was a full-time staff in.
Speaker 3:After six months of being on staff, the entire staff either was fired or quit or whatever, and I was the only staff pastor. I was a brand new believer, ordained pastor. People were coming to me about marriage issues and I'd only been married for like a couple of months at that point and I'm like I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out myself self. So it was a unique path that God had me on, in that I didn't go the traditional, you know, grew up in church, went to school, learned these things and then was put in this. It really was trial by fire my entire ministry.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's something in there. You know, there are lots of leaders who go through you know kind of that season where all of a sudden they're saying yes and they find themselves in that position where they go.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm really ready for this, Like I don't know if I'm equipped for this.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm able or ready to handle that. How did you kind of adapt?
Speaker 3:to that in that moment. Yeah, I mean, it was hard, you know, you don't? I, just as a man and as human being, you know just, we see our deficiencies and so I never felt like, oh man, I'm just not I'll tell my wife that even now, I'm just not good at this Like I don't know what I'm doing, and uh.
Speaker 3:But time and time again I've had people come up to me, maybe after I I speak or whatever, and they would say the same thing Like um. I think God uses that weakness in you to display his strength. That's right. And so I think there was a very as much as I lament it sometimes my journey. I think there was a very specific reason why God would put me in those environments. It wasn't because I was the best speaker or teacher or I knew a lot or I was funny or whatever. It was because I was really a blank canvas that he could display his, his, his strength through. And so you know when, when Paul talks about um, you know his grace is sufficient for me. His strength is made perfect in my weakness. I'm living proof of that right Is that? It's never me. I'm still that scared new believer. Every time I step into a pulpit or whatever, or behind you know, a camera or whatever, I'm still that nervous Like I hope I don't say stupid things and do stupid things.
Speaker 2:I mean gosh, that's definitely comforting for me because I get that right, Like I feel those same things. Um, you know, obviously we, we attend church together and we're we're in alignment and agreement. On all of those things I mean yeah, yeah, together. I mean yeah, yeah. For those who are curious, tommy leads a group of house churches in the United States that run across a portion of the state of Georgia, and so he leads one of those house churches and so do I, and that keeps me really grounded and connected to that process of making disciples.
Speaker 2:You know, as you shared your story, the thought that came to my mind was you were digging a foundation, you were digging footings for something to be built upon, and I think, even now, in this model of church that we've been living in, in some ways it's a similar thing where it's digging a footing, but this one feels well-worn and kind of dug out by the Lord really to me. So tell me a little bit of you know, we believe deeply that leaders will have a passion for the harvest right, and that means a passion for the Great Commission. You know that the Great Commission talks about, you know, making disciples right, going to all the nations, right, but there's this phrase teaching them to obey right, and that's really kind of that discipleship context. What are you seeing, or how are you seeing discipleship, at the very least in the American church, but maybe even more broadly, where are you seeing some of the trends or tides in that in your walk in church?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the interesting part of my journey is I, I, I didn't really have that one person to walk alongside me to teach me how to do things and I, I again, I can lament it, but I think it really was God's intention for it to be that way, because he's given me a passion to help see people grow in their relationship with the Lord. Um, and so, you know, just like everyone else, you know, I, I came through the church, um, did the church thing, the youth pastor thing in a more traditional setting and all of that, and I always felt like there was something broken, like there's something messed up here, because what I'm reading about, especially in the book of Acts, with the early church, and what I'm seeing happen and play out in the church, is not, it doesn't jive, it doesn't go together and there's some good things about. You know, I had some great experiences in some churches and I had some not so great experiences in some churches, but but altogether, when I, when I look at it, I was like there's something, there's something that's not gelling with what I'm reading in scripture and maybe that, maybe that was where it was good that I didn't come at it with a lot of background and baggage because I could notice there's a difference. Lot of background and baggage because, um, I could notice there's a difference. And so something inside of me, um, always long for more. Like I would read, uh, acts chapter two, acts chapter four, and I would be like man, there's things missing and I want to be a part of that. So bad, um, but I there was part of me also that would just resign myself to be like, well, these people are a lot smarter than me and they've been doing this a lot longer than me, and this is hundreds of years of church history. And I just got to fall in line and do what I'm supposed to do, but they're, they're reached like a breaking point in my life where it's like, no, no, no, there's something fundamentally wrong and I don't think I can continue to do church this way.
Speaker 3:And it was the discipleship piece. You know, I think in our country and here in the United States, you know, we've, um, the church has become just this big, um attractional, consumeristic driven thing, um, where people they go and they can attend, they can sneak in and sneak out and, um, as we were talking about before, they, not they they're never really known by anyone you know. You can attend church and never be known, um, or you can even go to can attend church and never be known, or you can even go to a small group and never be known. And so we've made everything so programmatic and not relational. So in our church, kind of our mission statement or whatever if you want to call it that, we don't really call it that, but the truth is that discipleship happens best in the context of deep relationships and I came to that conclusion.
Speaker 3:It's not anything new, it's just reading scripture and watching how Jesus invested in the 12. Right, he spent his time with them. You know they walked where he walked. He showed them, you know the things of God and then he let them do it. And so it was very relational. This wasn't just him standing in front of a church or a classroom teaching. This was him investing in. I really want to know Simon Peter, I really want to know John, you know, and these relationships, and we see that even in the picture of the Last Supper when John's reclining on Jesus. That's a very intimate picture.
Speaker 3:And I think that's what discipleship looks like. And the problem is we've we've so programmed our churches to where relationship isn't a priority anymore. You can literally just go and go home and and say that you know, and I think that, I think that there was something in me. It's like no, there has to be more than that. Yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I would think even even the opposite side of that can also be true, where I participate in all of the programs of the church. But maybe I don't have any personal relationship in the midst of that and I think there's a lot of danger and propensity toward that and I would argue it's probably not purely an American thing, right?
Speaker 2:There are lots of groups, even in the global South. Now they'll hold crusades and prayer gatherings. I mean, I was at a church in Africa and one of the elders was up there even saying we'll all give an mm at the prayer, but then we walk out and we don't do anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right, and there's that disconnect where it has become, I think, at different times, very consumer in mindset, yeah, and I think those things you know, like you know the aspects of church, the Bible studies and the preaching and all that and even the revivals and the conference.
Speaker 3:They're not inherently bad things, but I think they're missing an important element. And so when it came down to it for our church, it was now we can add something else that we can call relational, and it'd just be another relational program in our church and try to get people involved. Or we can force everybody into relationships. Because here's the thing you know, if we talk about, like any socialization we have at church or a conversation you have at church, traditional church setting, it's what? Five minutes before, five minutes after, nothing deep happens in five minutes Like so you're not talking about what's going on in your life. I don't know what's going on with you, I don't know how to help you, I don't know how to pray for you beyond what you're just letting me see.
Speaker 3:And so it was like we can add something else to to people who've already been stretched very thin by the things of church. Or we can just change the way we do church altogether and make it relationship the priority. And so that's kind of where we approached it from, and we're still learning as we go, you know, but it's a very hands-on. Dig your hands beneath the soil to get to the root, to start to deal with. How do we help this thing to grow?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll often describe it to people.
Speaker 2:You know you'll hear the phrase get out of rows and into circles, right, where everyone's discussing the value of that circle-driven community, and I, just when I introduce our church and our model to people, I just say, look, we just deleted the rows.
Speaker 2:We just say that's not what we do. So you know, and so we've kind of set up here, that there's a tension and a problem that exists within many Christian contexts and that tension and problem is there isn't relational discipleship taking place. So I know that we have done some of that within our own church. But what are some of the practical ways? Because the leader inside my head, right if there's a third chair sitting here having this conversation, I would imagine that they're thinking, you know, gosh, that sounds great, like I'd love to be able, but you know, I don't know if I even have time for another relationship or how do I? Even so, what are some of the practical ways that you see yourself and you see our church living out, how to make that a reality and how do we overcome some of those real or perceived obstacles?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'll talk about the way our church is and then I'll talk about how I've started to do this on a more personal level. But our church is structured in such a way that, because now we're doing house churches, they're smaller, which means that you're going to get to know everyone in your house church. No, I always tell people people can't hide in our church, like, and that's a good thing, but it's also intimidating for a new person, you know. But even outside of that, that's where relationship comes in. So if you're inviting someone in, you've already invested in a relationship.
Speaker 3:So what we do is we. If you came to our house church, it looks almost like a typical church gathering. We have the same elements, except for, you know, we spend our time praying. So we want to be devoted to prayer, as it says in Acts, chapter 2. We want to be devoted to the word of God, as it says in Acts, chapter 2, the apostles teaching, you know. And we want to be devoted to fellowship. That's the one we miss. And so we still have, you know, the teaching. We still have the discussion, the prayer, the communion. We do all of that.
Speaker 3:But lunch is a vital part of what we do on Sundays, right? So I have people in our and I know this is the same in your house church as well. We have people who start off at our house at 10 o'clock and don't leave till almost three o'clock some Sundays, and so that's a long time to spend with each other. So it's almost like a family reunion every Sunday, except for Jesus is the center. And so, um, we have people hanging out around a table after all of the, the, um, you know, the, the, the message, and all of that, just talking and hanging out for two hours after all of that's over, and that's. That's a beautiful thing to watch, because now we're going beyond surface. Now I'm hearing what's going on in your life and, um, there have been people who have stuck around until everybody's left to talk to me about really important issues in their life marriage issues, um, you know, um, sickness that's happening, uh, asking for prayer that they don't want to make public yet, uh, so so we get to that point where we spend enough time and people are going to hang around and say, hey, I really need to talk about these things. But for the most part, it really goes beyond the surface because we're spending so much time together. Which time is? You know it's hard in our culture.
Speaker 3:And so now, on a personal level, I have I was telling you this earlier, but God really kind of laid on my heart. If I'm going to ask the people who I'm trying to equip to make disciples, then I have to figure out what that looks like in my life beyond the church bubble. And so I had the opportunity to coach baseball, you know, just to be a sports coach and spend time with young men and invest in them. And God has given me unique opportunities in that, to mentor kids and to really spend time investing in them spiritually, not just, you know, on a sports level. And I think that's been huge, you know, because this summer we saw a young man give his life to the Lord, which was a huge praise. After four seasons of me coaching baseball, I saw a young man give his life to the Lord.
Speaker 3:And so it's, you know, making disciples is not I mean, there are, there are those, you know, light comes on choir of angel moments where you come to know Christ. And then there's the slow right when you just have to really invest in someone and it's over time that you start to see them, start to really understand the gospel and to see it played out in your life to where they want to give their life to it. I mean, you think about Jesus. Jesus spent what? Three years with his men, and then, even then, he had to die on a cross and raise again and then send his spirit. And I always remind myself, well, I'm not Jesus and I'm, you know, I'm not going to rise from the dead now yet. So you know, so I don't have you know, I'm going to cut myself some slack and give myself some grace in how I invest in people. That it's not always about the numbers, it's about being faithful to being who he's called us to be, but isn't there such a tension in that, though?
Speaker 2:Like, I feel that tension, and maybe that's somebody told me this morning in a Bible study group that I'm a part of. They said look, the most dangerous game is the comparison game.
Speaker 3:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:But gosh, don't we feel that tension. Yeah, where we sit there and like I'll devalue that hard conversation I get to have with Jesse over the grill, we're cooking at the end of house church, right, and he's got some stuff going on and we really need to have this hard conversation. I'll unintentionally devalue that while thinking that you know, 40 extra people at the church on a Sunday was the better thing, right. Like how do you overcome that? Like what do you do to combat that?
Speaker 3:It's taken me years because you know it's easy to kind of get caught up in how we do things. You know, as a youth pastor I got the opportunity at times to speak at large camps and stuff and I got used to the invitation culture where you do this really dramatic, emotional invitation at the end of your message and you get kids to come forward and raise their hands and after a while I thought to myself I'm pretty good at manipulating kids to coming forward Like if I wanted to and I'm not saying this to brag, I'm saying this because it really hurt my heart after a while I could get every kid to come forward if I wanted to Just take the time and just play on the emotions, it felt very manipulative to me.
Speaker 3:It didn't feel real, and I'm not saying that no kid gave his life to Christ in those moments. I'm just saying it just felt forced and it didn't feel natural or whatever. And so I really, you know a lot of that has changed. So I started thinking about what about? You know, we're seeing people come forward. I remember going to a church um a few years ago and this pastor comes in. It was a big like, um, I don't know big, big deal, I'm coming into the building even, and he stacked. He sets this stack of blue cards on the podium, he slams him down. He's like we saw 800 people come to faith in Christ this weekend and I looked around I was like but where are they? You know, and and and again, I'm not trying to criticize them my thought was who's discipling those people? Right, because it goes beyond the raised hand, right, and so there was already that angst in me about the way we do things in that sense, because that's not discipleship.
Speaker 2:Well, and it speaks to the value of that tangible authenticity, yeah, right, yeah, of that tangible authenticity. Right, and to not see evangelism as separate from discipleship, but the initiation of that process that has to be continued, right, like it needs longevity. It needs, you know, the science. Part of my brain says it needs longitudinal data, right?
Speaker 2:I don't know anything about that I need to see it over time, to see that that authentically develop in in a person's life. So, as I'm, as I'm kind of reflecting on this, you know I've got to have the authenticity, got to have the time. But doesn't that authenticity lead to my heart feeling like mourning with them as they mourn, or feeling that weight? How do you, how do you have enough emotional energy to do that, man, Like that's exhausting.
Speaker 3:I mean it comes from the Lord only because it is exhausting. I was talking to you earlier, you know, since we did house church, um, it's, there have been times when I've been in ministry situations that I've never been in before, and I've been in ministry almost 30 years now. And so, uh, sitting in a living room as a marriage is breaking apart not in a counseling situation, in a situation where the wife is asking her husband to leave the house, that's awkward, but that's part of you know, getting your hands dirty beneath the soil. It's like, shouldn't we be there for those kinds of conversations? Shouldn't we be there to pray? And shouldn't we be there to encourage, and shouldn't we be there to speak truth and life over that situation, whereas in the past I wouldn't even have been a part of that conversation unless they made an appointment to come see me for counseling. But even then the conversation changes, it's not as raw as that moment was. And so I think, if we're being relational in the way that God wants us to be relational, we're going to be present for those moments, so present where marriages are breaking apart, and we're there to help.
Speaker 3:Minister, when loved ones are sick or dying and people are really mourning. We're there to put the pieces back together, not just in the hospital where you get that call that so-and-so passed away. But hey, man, you know my wife has been in the hospital for three months. You know, are we there in the hospital, are we there ministering to that family those three months, and not just there at the end. You know there's something to be said about again, that the empathetic I'm walking in their shoes, I'm walking this out with them. I'm not just hearing about it, you know, later on or whatever, and I think that's important. It's painful and it's hard and it is emotionally taxing and it does leave you at times like, oh gosh, I don't know how to do that. But again, his strength is made perfect in our weakness, and so I'm going to keep pushing forward, because that's what discipleship looks like.
Speaker 2:I think. I think that's so good because it's a reminder that if I'm going to be an effective leader, uh, uh, a follower of Christ right, Irrespective of the leadership context, but but particularly as we're talking in this moment, right, Uh, it, it's going to require an abiding intimacy with the Lord that allows me to live in an authentic way with those who are hurting, when they are hurting, so that I can be in that journey with them. And the other part of my brain it just, it just triggered. Well, there's, there's surely somebody listening to this who thinks to themselves that's great when you've got 20 people in your house, but how do I do that for 2,000 people? I got 2,000 people, Tommy. How on earth am I supposed to do that for 2,000 people? What would be, maybe, your word of encouragement or something that you might offer them? And I've got some thoughts of my own too.
Speaker 3:You know what's crazy is right. When we started this journey, um, I sat down with a pastor friend of mine who was running around 2 000 people and me and this man have been friends for a long time and we're always kind of simpatico, like we're always thinking the same thing around the same time, like god's laying something in our heart. We're thinking about this, this topic of discipleship and what it looks like to really radically right be who god's called us to be in making disciples.
Speaker 3:And it felt like we were on the same page. And I remember saying to him it's funny that you even use the number 2000. I said I don't know how to do that for 2000 people, like in my context, I can just start over. But I told him, I said if you, if you go down this journey, you can expect a lot of people to walk away, because we built this big consumer model of church where people just come and again they hide out and they get what they need and they leave. And you know, there's this, this uh principle called the 80, 20 principle, right? So 20% of the people are giving and leading and doing all these things and 80% of people are just attending.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Right. Um well, what happens when you're just left with the 20, right? Well, it feels like a failure in our culture right oh.
Speaker 3:I've lost 80% of my church. But you know, what changed my heart on that is that Jesus regularly said difficult things and the masses walked away from him. So if we looked at Jesus in our culture we'd say, well, he's a failed church planter, Like he doesn't know what he's doing right, Cause people are constantly walking away. And he'd be left with a 12 and even ask the 12, are you going to leave too? And I love Simon Peter. Simon Peter was like where else are we going to go? Right, and those are the disciples, Right. And we even know one of them was not destined to stay, but within that he always held on to the 12. So our measure of success has to change. You know, I tell young guys who come up to me all the time they're like how do I know I'm called into ministry? My response has always been well, if, like Jeremiah, you could preach 40 years and nobody ever listened to a word, you say then you know you're called and not even realizing that might even be my journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like that. I may never be destined to lead large masses of people to Christ, or see, you know. But but the again we have to change the metric of of what success looks like in the eyes of the Lord. It's obedience, it's faithfulness. Right, am I faithful to making disciples, even if it's that only that one kid on the baseball team in four years that places his faith in Jesus? I could have given up, I could have been like no, I'm not going to do that anymore because it's not fruitful and I'm not seeing the numbers. But God's like you hold on one more season. And you know, I think about, if I didn't hold on one more season, that one kid may not have placed his faith in Jesus. And so, again, our idea of what success looks like has to change. Even and I don't know if this sounds encouraging or not you said encourage them, even if it means the 80% walk away and you're left with the 20.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's. You know, if you're that pastor out there and you're thinking that way, my encouragement to you would be somewhat similar recognizing, hey, that 20% is really. That's really who I'm making like, that's really who I'm investing and discipling, right, these others are like the crowd that was looking on right, but this is where that deeper discipleship is taking place and we know that. You know these are often the individuals that God is, is putting into into leadership roles to be his hands and feet Right. Right, you know we've been reading through Ephesians in the.
Speaker 2:The beauty at the end of Ephesians is like the church is a fullness of him.
Speaker 2:And I had just been ruminating with that over and over again, thinking, man, what an incredible and beautiful thought and statement that we, his gathered body, are the fullness of him right now. And so if you're a pastor or leader out there and you're trying to figure out what that discipleship looks like, let me encourage you that one of the ways that it can look is deep investment in those individuals that are leading, that are engaging and helping them to equally, be in an abiding, intimate relationship with God, helping them to identify who it is that they can start that discipleship journey with and by discipleship journey I really just mean walking in life with those people and getting, giving or creating the space in their life to say, no, this is what I do. Right, you know, I love it, because Sundays I'm just going to have 20 people in the house and I'm going to be spending time with them and I'm not. There's no pretense, there's no pageantry or promotion or play. It's just walking in life together.
Speaker 3:And that's more functional. So you know, I've never been a pastor of a 2,000-member church, but I will tell you, when you get to about 150, I no longer can care for 150 people adequately myself. And so people do get upset. They're like, hey, you didn't call me when I, you know, I've been gone out of the church for three weeks, so it takes me three weeks to notice when somebody's missing in that context, because after a couple of weeks, like well, I haven't seen them in a while, you know. And so people get angry at that. So I started thinking that's not sustainable for me to adequately care for 150 people. And so when we switch to the way we do church now, now I have to invest in my leaders, which is you and some of the other guys, right, I have to invest in my house church now. So I do pastoral care for about 20 people and then the elders in their families, so you're talking about 30 people total in their families. You know that's a lot more sustainable than me trying to be over all of it Right, and it's kind of the system we've created in our culture right, where we let the professionals do all of that stuff and it takes away. We're not equipping people for the work of ministry and it takes away from what God's called them to be and called them to. That's not discipleship, that's called attendance. That's it Right.
Speaker 3:And so I want to equip our people so that when we have a need within our church it doesn't go through our benevolence coordinator or whatever, where they goes to somebody and they call and then they make some calls or we have a fund set up. It's like no, no, no, your house church family is going to take care of your need. Just let them know what's going on. Your house church pastor is going to counsel you and care for you.
Speaker 3:And it's not saying that I'm hands off. I mean, I've been pastoring some of these people for upwards of 12 years now, and so I'm going to get involved every once in a while as the lead pastor of the church, but I don't feel the pull to do that, and it's crazy the further we get along, the less people actually reach out for me to do those things, and so I trust our leaders to do it, but I don't. It's not just about the elders and the leaders, because they're not even the professional pastors, they're lay leaders as well. Is that I trust the people in our house churches to be the church, be the hands and feet of Jesus and come alongside people in their time of need. So pastoral care doesn't even just happen from the top down. It happens side by side. You know which is how it should happen.
Speaker 2:Well, we were just talking about. There was a message recently and I was just so thankful as we were sitting all discussing the scriptures. I wasn't the one. Like you know, I'm a house church pastor, right, I lead those discussions and I play the bumper to make sure we don't get heretical and kind of keep it all together.
Speaker 2:But they were discipling each other. I was allowed, I was able to just sit there for a moment and allow other people to speak into each other's lives. And you know, I know that that's the context for some small groups and some things like that and those, but it just speaks to the intentionality of creating again those primary elements. We're going to have deep relationship so that we can have deep discipleship. We're going to have deep intimacy so we can have genuine authenticity in our attitudes and actions. We're going to abide in the Father in such a way that we're able to walk that discipleship journey with people. Well, tommy, any kind of closing thoughts as we kind of wrap out this discussion on discipleship and and leadership? I was just thinking really quickly.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, one of the things that that, when we switch to the way we do church now, one of the things that I that I got from a lot of our people who were making the switch with us, who have been in church for a long time, is how are we going to reach people now? Right, and I remember having a discussion with Jesse Cooper and Jesse Cooper was like Tommy, I just don't see how we're going to make this work. How are we going to grow? How are people going to know where we're at? And I said well, jesse, you're going to do what the Bible says and you're going to make disciples. That's right.
Speaker 3:And so that's where we are as a church right now is that, now that we are helping people to grow in their faith, part of that growth comes from actually you going and doing now. So it's not about sitting and learning until glory, until Jesus comes back, right, it's about okay, one of the ways that you experience the fullness of the goodness of God in your life is by actually going and making disciples. Paul says in Philemon 6,. He says I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith so that you'll have a full understanding of every good thing that comes from God, right? So the way that we have a full understanding of the goodness of God and experience the joy of of the fruit that he's promised us is actually in being active and sharing our faith.
Speaker 3:And so, um, you know, we've in in the past, we've left that to the pastors and leaders to do. That's a job for the professionals, but we have to, as a church, in our culture, figure out a way to make that a part of day one of your discipleship journey is that, hey, now you got to go tell people. And so that's where we're at as a church right now, and that's a struggle because we're trying to. I hate using the word deprogram because it just sounds like cult language or whatever, but we have to almost deprogram people from that mentality of I'm just a consumer who comes and sits and I'm served. I don't invest in this way.
Speaker 3:No, no, from day one, we want you investing and we're going to show you how to do it, and so, as leaders, we have to be the example of that in our lives, and we have to be able to point to hey, here, here's what I'm doing, uh, which I think in the past I would have just pointed to the pulpit and say that's what I'm doing, you know, and that's not a really good model to follow. And so, as as maturing disciples, we have to be willing to go and make disciples, you know, you know, and in doing so, I think that you know, we're helping others along on their spiritual journey as well.
Speaker 2:Tommy. Thank you so much, man, Thanks for obviously being my pastor and all the incredible things you do in that role.
Speaker 2:But thanks for taking some time to sit down and talk through this with us. If you're a leader that's out there listening to this, I just want to encourage you, man. There are processes and plans and steps you can take, but it all begins with an intimate relationship with Jesus yourself and living in that abiding place, and we want to help serve you in that regard. You can find resources at iliteamorg, find some different New Version Bible reading plans or just things that can help you in that discipleship journey yourself or along with someone else.
Speaker 2:But if this or some of these others have been of use to you, I just want to encourage you like subscribe, do all the things you need to do there, maybe share with a friend if you find this helpful, and give us some feedback. You can send us an email. Just go to iliteamorg and you can do some different things there, but we'd love to hear from you so we can understand and serve you better, because, genuinely, when the leader gets better, everybody wins. We need more Christian leaders faithfully living out their calling and making disciples in all aspects. So, tommy, thanks again for spending some time with us. Man, I appreciate it. You're welcome.