ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 54 | Faithful Leadership in a Shifting Culture
What happens when Christian leaders embrace both the stability of institutional wisdom and the vitality of Spirit-led movement? In this powerful episode of The History Makers Leadership Podcast, Ryan Barnett joins ILI's Daniel Drewski for a transformative conversation on reclaiming the church’s original mission in today’s rapidly changing world.
Drawing from his own remarkable journey into pastoral ministry, Barnett unpacks a guiding principle that’s reshaping his leadership:
"The institution serves the movement, not the movement serving the institution." This conviction fuels what he calls a “Methodist Reformation”—a bold recovery of core identity and mission, shedding layers of bureaucracy to rediscover the church’s missional roots.
The conversation also explores the dramatic shift in global Christianity, as the church’s center of gravity moves toward sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America. These regions embody a grassroots model of ministry—where discipleship is lived out in homes, neighborhoods, and workplaces, not just church buildings. It's a model Western churches are beginning to rediscover in the wake of the pandemic.
Whether you lead in a church, a nonprofit, or the marketplace, this episode offers practical insight for navigating cultural shifts with clarity and conviction. For leaders disillusioned with institutional stagnation or struggling to channel fresh movement energy, Barnett’s message is clear: Remember why we exist, reclaim the mission Jesus has already given us, and reform the structures that hinder its fulfillment.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast, where we explore the transformative journey that is leadership. Each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact all around the globe. This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute. Now get ready to unlock your leadership potential and let's change history together.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the History Makers Leadership Podcast. My name is Daniel and I'm incredibly excited today to be joined by Ryan Barnett. Ryan man, it is so good to kind of connect, at least virtually. I know we've met in person, but it's great to see you, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good to see you too. I'm so grateful for you, for your team and all the great work you're doing in equipping churches to really make a difference in their community and around the world.
Speaker 2:Well, you're incredibly generous brother. Well, ryan, I'd like for, like for the third chair here, those who are listening in and participating with us to know a little bit about you. I've had the chance to meet you and we've had some great conversations, but I know you're an incredible leader of character who's really leading in this culture-shifting, transformational moment. Tell us a little bit about, maybe, some of your background. What led you to where you are now, where you are now? Just help us get a context here so that, as people are listening in, they're going to be able to know where you're coming from and some of the insights that I think God has given you through your experience and your faithful walk with Him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, man. Well, I grew up in a small town outside of Houston and I grew up in a Methodist church. It's probably not unlike many Methodist churches in that time. It was faithful people leading, providing for the growth, development of families and kids. So I grew up in Sunday school Methodist youth fellowship all of that. And kids so grew up in Sunday school Methodist youth fellowship all of that.
Speaker 3:But one of the things that growing up that somehow I missed, and I still, you know, reflecting back I'm not sure if it was just missing from the Methodist church at that time or if I just missed it, which I'm willing to confess that it was me but I cannot for the life of me remember talking about the Trinity growing up in ways that allowed me to understand that God was living, breathing, moving in the world. And so what I say is I grew up with a really intellectual faith, a faith that was neck deep. So I 100% was sold out on Christ, on the faith in my mind. But it wasn't until when I was in college that I went to a Methodist church in East Austin. I was at the University of Texas and there was a pastor there named Sue White, and she led from the third person of the Trinity. I mean, she was really the first person I can remember encountering that, just when she would stand in the pulpit. It wasn't like you were listening to an exposition, it was. You were experiencing the power of God moving.
Speaker 3:And again, you know I'm not saying that it hadn't happened. It certainly could have been what God was doing in me that made me receptive to receiving that. But for whatever reason, my heart was kind of wide open during that time. At that season in my life I was working in politics. I mean, that was really what I thought I would do with my life. I was working as a legislative aide in the Texas Senate. I had worked on some statewide campaigns. That was the direction I felt like my life was moving in and I don't know how else to say it. But I mean, holy Spirit just wrecked me and in part it wasn't as dramatic a shift as it may seem. I mean, my interest in politics had always been a desire to see the world work in more fair and just ways and I thought that that, okay, this is confession now.
Speaker 3:then I thought that the best avenue for that was the statehouse. You know if we can create policy and legislative packages that make the world function in a more just, equitable way, and there is certainly a place for that. But at the end of the day, the Lord really in that season opened my heart to the realization that you can enforce compliance on people with law. But deep change, transformation into the kingdom of God, requires the work of the church house. You know it is a transformation of heart and mind, a total transformation of your soul. And so I had two job opportunities in front of me at the time. I had been volunteering at that little church in youth ministry and doing some, and I was working at the state house.
Speaker 3:I had an offer for a junior partnership in the boutique government relations firm in Houston that you know I'm like all of 23, 24 years old, fresh graduate, and they're offering me six figures and partner buy-in and all this, you know stuff. And then I had a phone call from from a church that asked if I would consider coming being their their youth director. And it's like we can pay you 26 000 a year and pay for 25 of your health insurance. And I was like when can I start? You know that, that's what I, that's what I want to do. Um, and so it was. I mean, it was, and it was providential, just parenthetically. Uh, the biggest client of that governmental boutique firm was Enron. They, they, they paid that firm millions a year.
Speaker 2:Uh, that, that, yeah, and and and well, and Enron, just a few years later, would would collapse. I'm trying to keep like the timeline straight in my mind, but that business would just collapse.
Speaker 3:It would collapse a few years later and and I would have collapsed with anyway. So after a few years of doing youth ministry, I realized this is what I want to do, this is my call, this is the place. And so I ended up going to Asbury Seminary in Wilmore, kentucky, and that was a defining season of training, equipping, preparing. Maxie Dunham was president of the seminary at that time. During Maxie Dunham was president of the seminary at that time, jd Walt was the new dean of the chapel, vice president for community life, and Sandy Richter was a brand new professor of Old Testament and Steve Moore was the executive vice president and others you know a vice president and others you know. But these are people who, when I arrived there, for whatever reason, god just allowed me to come into their orbit, learn from them, watch them, lead, lead beside them in some ways as the years went along, and all of whom I count as mentors and friends to this day. So when I left there, I took an associate pastor position in a large church in San Antonio.
Speaker 3:Mike Lowry was the senior pastor, okay, and so I got to serve under him and learn from him and anyway, from there I served churches in Texas at that very large church it was University Methodist Church down to a small suburban church in Corpus Christi and then out to a county seat church west of San Antonio and then finally to First Methodist in Waco where I was for almost eight years as the senior pastor there and then I just stepped out of that January 1, and I'm currently serving as the conference operations officer for the Mid-Texas Conference and I also serve as the senior advisor for advancement for the Wesley House of Studies at Baylor University.
Speaker 3:So, that's probably way more than you all were looking for. It's like hey, tell me what you're doing. Well, here's my entire life story, brother.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest. No, there's again. We want to talk about providential. I didn't know some of those elements of your story, but there's actually a lot of overlap. I also was a legislative aide and worked in the Georgia state capitol, also grew up in a church that believed very much in Trinitarian doctrine, but, understanding the Holy Spirit and his active work and role, I wouldn't say it was depressed, but it wasn't as taught or as clearly communicated, and so there's actually a lot of overlap in some of those elements to our story.
Speaker 2:I had a chance to work at a national kind of political action committee, and, similarly, god called me into discipling the mind of the church, and so saying okay, god, what does that mean? I don't think it has to do with that and really recognizing and this is 15 years of growth and development later, recognizing, I think, some of what you were, even sharing that, hey, god, that sense, that inner sense to yearn to seek righteousness and justice, isn't wrong. The means by which that will ultimately be accomplished, though, is not the means that I kept trying to kind of skirt around and make it, but rather it is the transformational work of the gospel in the hearts of people. Right, and this is how, as kingdom-minded, gospel-minded leaders, we don't want to see the external cleanliness, but the internal cleanliness. We don't want just the external elements and actions and activities, as good as those may be. We want to see men and women's hearts transformed and that's ultimately going to be a work of the Spirit of God working in and through the local body of Christ, because that's the means by which God has chosen to propagate His name, his goodness, his glory, to the ends of the earth. And so I mean that was super encouraging to kind of hear the connection there and understand a little bit about that past and history from you. Well, I know this.
Speaker 2:Okay, you mentioned mid-Texas. You mentioned kind of hey, january 1, you stepped into this new seat, a new role. I'd just be curious, man, you're in a kind of a key critical culture shifting moment in your context of leadership, and I know that, no matter what our context for leadership is, as we are leading and guiding other people, there are going to be moments where we have to kind of navigate that culture shift. What are some of the things God's teaching you in the midst of that right? How do we do that without just totally obliterating whatever good is left in the culture. How do we do that without just running people over roughshod? You know people can sometimes be slow to adopt. We know we have adoption curve differentiation here. What are some of the ways that you're seeing that as you're in the midst of living?
Speaker 3:What are some of the ways that you're seeing that, as you're in the midst of living it. Yeah, that's a great question, daniel. I mean, first of all, I think some of the culture that we're trying to change and that is changing is not the heart of what the movement is. So it's not like we have to change the heart of the church or the heart of the people or the heart of the mission. It is behaviors that have piled on. It is doctrines that have piled on. It's processes, systems that have piled on, you know it's the plunder, the Egyptians, but leave the gods behind kind of moment, I think, for Methodists, particularly for global Methodists.
Speaker 3:In fact, I would suggest that what we're seeing in global Methodism is a recovery of primary identity, of the laying down and surrendering of some of the institutionalism that had piled up and around the movement. At Asbury Seminary, you know, in the center square of the courtyard there's a statue of John Wesley, but one of the plaques there that haunted me from the day I arrived is his quote about, you know, not fearing whether the people called Methodists should ever cease to exist, but whether they would surrender the spirit with which they first began and for myriad reasons we surrendered the spirit with which they first began.
Speaker 3:And for a myriad of reasons, we surrendered the spirit with which we first began. Mainly, we got educated and wealthy and comfortable, and Americanized and Westernized all these things which happens to every great movement through the course of human history, until there is a moment when the spirit moves in a way that begins to force the institution to fracture and break and releases the movement again. So, all that to say, I think that for me that's where we are.
Speaker 3:I mean so it's a wonderful moment of being allowed to question, uh, the box. You know anybody who knows me. They're like ryan thinks outside the box, I'm like no I didn't know.
Speaker 2:There was a box.
Speaker 3:You know the way god made my mind is you know, why would you even want a box? You know, in this expansive nature of God's person character, what he's capable of. Why would we want to limit or shrink down any of his ability and vision for us so?
Speaker 3:all to say we are in a moment. I am. It makes me excited. There's people that culture shift make nervous. There's people who make make them very excited, makes me very excited. There, you, what I think, why I think it's so important?
Speaker 3:Um, we were in a learning cohort, um that that, where we were hearing from um someone who studied the life cycle of churches and movements I'm sure you've seen this stuff. It's like, well, you, that's from where the church begins and they run like this and they, they hit this and then when they get onto this, um, this death spiral, they say you, there's no coming back. That's what. That's what the presenter said there's, there's no way to come back.
Speaker 3:And it got real quiet and still in the room, this is all of the leaders of the GMC and our part of the world, 750 churches, uh, with the 10 or 12 of us in this room. And it gets real still and real quiet. And one of the people says that you, you just described most of our churches Is that is it. Is there no, is there no way? And the presenter was like well, the problem, the problem is, is that the defining characteristic is they've lost vision and so they have gotten into a pattern of existing to exist. That is the goal is to stay, and churches die when that becomes their goal is to exist. It's just to not die, and that's actually what causes the debt?
Speaker 2:yep I mean again, I couldn't agree more. More I mean to use the maybe quintessential phrase preaching to the choir over here, brother. I mean, I think, when leaders fail to consistently clearly articulate a compelling vision, irrespective of the context of our Christian leadership, if we're not doing that, inevitably you end up in a position where visions diverge. And so youth ministry now exists for its own subset of reasons, and that sub-department of your business exists for its own subset of reasons. You start fracturing into local kingdoms, individualized, segregated, I don't want to say it, but selfish needs and, to your point, just kind of becoming really just self-focused in all those ways and gosh, of any group may not be said of Christians that we have become self-idolizing and self-focused when we have been called to be the least and the servant of all. You said this phrase, you use these two terms, and so I'd love to just kind of get your feedback, your thoughts on this. You use the term institutional and movement, and I have long believed that actually. So correct me, correct me if you think this is an incorrect belief, or what your impression is in the midst of where you are.
Speaker 2:I've long believed that the body of Christ, the church, it needs both. It needs movements for the zeal, for the passion, for the out of the box, for the movement, for the energy, but it needs the institutions for the systems, the processes, the longevity right. When I think about in the business space, I do a lot with Christian business leaders and when I talk to them I'm often reminding them that, listen, 100 years ago the average age of a business was 100 years or more. Today it's less than 20 on the S&P 500. And so you go, wait a second. Have we exchanged longevity for activity, when activity's impact isn't always necessarily measured on the same kind of timelines and scales that we know our God measures things in?
Speaker 2:So, ryan, my first undergrad pursuit was physics and I ended up with a degree in religious studies and philosophy. And I'll never forget my advisor when I switched degrees. He was so gracious to me. He said listen, daniel, you just moved from a field where your greatest discovery and accomplishment would happen by the time you're 27 to a field where Abraham wasn't even given the promise or the call from God until he was well beyond the ages that you and I may even be blessed to grace. So don't lose sight of God's timeline on those things. So I'd love your input. What do you think, as you're in the middle of saying, hey, we saw how some of the institutional mechanisms or whatever became kind of internally focused. Whatever became kind of internally focused, how have you seen institution and movement and the brokenness that can sometimes happen there, but also some of the things even now that you're trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. What are you experiencing in the midst of those things?
Speaker 3:So I think this is a great differentiation for us as we build, as any movement really builds. The key to me, I think, is understanding that the institution serves the movement. The movement does not exist to serve the institution.
Speaker 3:And this is where institutionalism becomes problematic the businesses you're talking about. So, you know, blockbuster said no, we have stores that people come into and look around, and this they, they. They thought their business was having a space that people came into to pick up a copy of a DVD. That wasn't primarily the business. They were in the entertainment business and so but, but they held on to the institutions. Now, I'm not an expert in, you know, corporate whatever, but sure. But this is to go back to those churches that you know find themselves in the in the death spiral. They forgot what their business is. Their business is not holding the building up, it's not making sure that the doors are open until the last person that attends their dives, that actually they exist to make disciples of Jesus Christ. They exist to share the goodness of the gospel of Jesus Christ with their neighbors and coworkers, classmates, their friends, their family members. That the building, that the committees, that the budgets, all of those things were crafted and created in service of the mission, and so if we're saying we can't do the mission because the institution doesn't allow it, that's where we have problems.
Speaker 3:I'll be honest with you, like large writ in 2012, there was a lot that happened at General Conference of the United Methodist Church in Tampa, florida, in 2012. This is 10 years before the Global Methodist Church started. But I'm telling you, the Global Methodist church started in 2012,. Because here's what happens. You have the theological disagreement about human sexuality on display. It's the same fight happening in the same ways. It's more, you know, visible higher tension and all of that. We existed through all of that through a long time. But a reform package passed in 2012 to reform the incredible bureaucracy of the denomination. It was not everything that needed to happen, but it was a big step forward to say the institution has to transform for the sake of mission. We have received report after report. It's not financially sustainable. We're going to go over an attendance cliff If we keep doing business as usual. The whole thing is going to crater and fall apart. And finally, there was this moment where people were like, okay, we don't want to change, but we'd rather change than die. So they passed the change.
Speaker 2:Isn't that a compelling vision? I'd rather change than die. Sorry, keep going.
Speaker 3:No hours before the conference adjourns, the Judicial Council of the denomination renders a ruling saying all that entire package of change is you can't do it, it's unconstitutional to the denomination, constitutional to the denomination. Consolidation of agencies, you know, moving from guaranteed appointment, all of that can't be done. And I remember at that moment I sent word to a friend and said that's it. The institution has said that it will not change, even if it means we kill the life of the church. That and so that's to me, that's that's where it is now. Here's the opportunity because I don't want to end on the negative note on this comment those in that same meeting I mentioned to you before, where we said you know, it was quiet and still Can we do anything about these churches Because there's hundreds of them? She said, well, it's the vision issue. And here's what the question we put back to the presenter was.
Speaker 3:Look, in all of those churches you suddenly have groups of people who are very excited about being a part of a new thing that God is doing called the Global Methodist Church. They, even for the ones who are not necessarily doing anything about it right now, they are excited about the idea that God is doing a fresh thing, that he's doing a new thing, that he is stripping off the layers of bureaucracy and reinvigorating the focus on the local church, that he's bringing the denomination to a subservient level to the local church, saying no, actually the structures exist as a servant of the mission on the ground, in the local church. They are excited about authentic connectionalism internationally. They feel like they are actually connected now with, like in our context, people in Costa Rica, people in Bulgaria, people in Rwanda, because those are our international partnerships.
Speaker 3:So you know 92-year-old Jane Smith in her church of you know 92 year old Jane Smith in her church of you know 67 people in a rural part of Western Texas feels connected with the 92 year old widow in you know Sophia, that her church is, does Bible studies, has had their pastor itinerate through, and so the question we put was is it possible that that vision of the GMC large writ could be infectious in these local churches in a way that could break them out of the cycle and bring them back around to a new life in their local church? And then it was the presenter's turn to get really quiet, and of all the study and research that she's done, she comes back and says you know, I think it is possible. I don't know that it will have ever happened, but I don't know that anyone's had that kind of opportunity before. So she's like we're going to be watching really closely.
Speaker 3:So to me, I'm always optimistic and I'm just telling you, Daniel, this is one of the reasons why we've embraced ILI so heavily in Mid-Texas is we want that opportunity lady who's excited about what's happening around her to help connect that back into her community to her neighbors and do that for all of our leaders across the conference.
Speaker 2:No, I just love that vision and I think you're right. I think that what your churches and this movement has done is really I don't know what word to use. It seems to be the most public, at the very least, of these kinds of transitions in our lifetime. And I have even investigated, saying, okay, god, this is really unique. What are some of the ways in which we need to be studying this?
Speaker 2:So you know from a more, some of my observations have been when people see dying churches, what do they do? They go and plant a new church. Right, they just, instead of you know that's how they create that momentum again, that movement, that idea of joining God. So, like church planting had been and is, in some context, kind of that. That, um, you know, uh, uh, bring with the novelty, the, the excitement, the energy, the, the passion, the zeal again. But but you guys are in the midst of of not just that like it is this, this kind of shift into a, a, you know, it has some established connections and roots and relationships, but it's it's birthing something. Uh, it has some established connections and roots and relationships, but it's birthing something that has new energy, life, and I think very well can be a different end to that same story.
Speaker 2:And you know, I'm a huge, I was a math guy, huge data science person. Those things are lagging indicators, not necessarily predictive. They just tell you what's happened in the past. It doesn't mean that this is the guarantee of all things into the future. And so, yeah, I really do think, not least of which because God tells us His church will prevail. But I really do think, god, you're doing something in the midst of this that, no matter our denominational affiliations, whatever, there should be some eyes on. Okay, god, what are you doing in the midst of this and how are you kind of turning that dial in the lives of these believers? And I'll just affirm, gosh, when you get well-equipped Christian leaders with a shared language for leadership that includes and incorporates their own devotional life, it is a transformational work.
Speaker 2:I'm constantly reflecting on the value of statements from great leaders John Maxwell, simon Sinek, some of these others that help teach great leadership concepts. But I don't want my leadership to be divided from or an add-on to, my followership of Jesus. I want it to be an extension of my followership of Jesus. So I'm constantly trying to look at that element. And man Jesus was very clear about the vision, the kingdom that he was proclaiming in discipling his disciples into teaching and moving forward. And so when we kind of take and realign a whole congregation, or, in this case, really a denomination, into seeing hey, wait a second, these are what we're driving toward, it's revolutionary right. I mean, you brought up Blockbuster and Netflix earlier, but gosh, is that not such a prime example where they had the chance to buy it In fact, netflix was desperate for them to buy it, but they wouldn't. And so what happened? Well, man, it was a total shift, and now they are the dominant source of entertainment.
Speaker 2:And I think, when it comes to the church being the answer to the problems, the struggles, the strife that exists in the world today, I know that that's the answer. And so, god, help us to be united in movement toward that message of hope, that message of kingdom, redemption and transformation, that message of ultimate satisfaction in God. That message of ultimate satisfaction in God, that is what's going to bring the kind of transformational hope and change we want to see in our communities and in our world, but also in our neighbor. And so your example, even of a lady who's sitting there thinking of her friend in Bulgaria and her friend next door. Helping to draw all of that together is just so essential for I think, the larger global view for the kingdom, that God's kind of stirring afresh and anew in our world today. I mean, you think I'm crazy here, like that's just what I'm seeing, at least.
Speaker 3:No, daniel, I think you're seeing what we're seeing, on both micro and macro levels that's taking place and this is, I think, to kind of tie a bow onto it, that relationship between movement and institution. You know I prefer movements, you know I'm comfortable in a little bit of the mess and the chaos, but I recognize we need. To me, we need just enough institution to keep the movement from, you know, veering off course. So you need some guardrails to keep the movement moving in the right direction and you need enough institution to keep the movement from running over people. Because to me, here's my vision of movement. Can I?
Speaker 2:can I tell you yeah, please, yeah, let's hear it.
Speaker 3:Here's my vision of movement, and this was, I mean, 20 something years ago. I don't know if you know who Mark Swayze is. He's the pastor of Next Gen Ministry at the Woodlands Methodist Church and Mark is one of my best friends. He was the best man at my wedding, so we've been friends for a very long time. And then there's a guy named Rusty Freeman, who he is the director of the Wesley House of Studies now at Truett and runs a ministry called Revive, which is a next gen ministry for children, youth, young adults.
Speaker 3:Um, anyway, rusty, mark and I were all young guys and we were all doing youth camps uh, youth ministry camps at the conference council on youth ministry in the old southwest texas conference. So, anyway, we're with, I'm preaching, rusty's directing and mark is, mark is leading worship. Those were, those were the rules we were seeing. I mean it was. I mean the spirit was running wild in these young people's lives. People, kids, were being called to ministry. You know it really is. I mean it really is crazy. What was happening. I mean demons were being expelled, healings were taking place. Um, it was, it was just a powerful season of ministry and um, and so at that time, this will date us, but do you remember um the song, um, do you feel the mountains tremble?
Speaker 3:oh yeah there's, there's a there's a line in there about like fleeing wide heavenly streets, yeah, all this stuff.
Speaker 3:So, wow, the kids are in there and they're bouncing up and down and singing and worshiping, and you know they're all in, as young people are. You know, just their whole heart is on display and I remember the last night before camp would end. They're singing that and something just stirred in my heart, you know, just like a little irritation from the Holy Spirit that you know spills out to the kids. That's like. You know, you have worshiped here. You've seen what God is doing, you've experienced his power among you. You know the truth of this.
Speaker 3:Now, in this moment, and tomorrow we're going to release you back into your communities and your homes and I know what you experience in your church is not necessarily what you experience here, and there's going to be pressure from your peers, even from some of your parents, to quench the fire of what God has done inside of you. But my question is this will you really run? Will you live what you're singing with the same kind of enthusiasm and passion? Will you really run through the streets proclaiming the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ when it's not in a safe, sheltered environment like Mount Wesley, the?
Speaker 2:camp we were in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man. So I mean it's really, man, I was like on fire. So the next day it's morning, we're all sleepy, you know, bags under our eyes. We'd stayed up late worshiping the Lord. Of course Kids are exhausted from a week at camp. You know parents had kind of come in. It's closing worship. Closing worship is always, you know, it's like their suitcases and bedrolls are all stacked around the chapel and it's like well, it's been a great week.
Speaker 3:We love you guys, Pray for you, you know all right, you know, here's a song by so Rusty and I are standing in the back of the room. I finished and you know that was it One last song we're going to sing and of course, so Mark picks up what had been the theme song for the weekend and that song about Flynn White.
Speaker 2:Rusty and.
Speaker 3:I stand there talking that song about Flynn White, rusty and I are standing there talking, and so as we're talking I become aware that there's a disturbance in the room and kids are. Kids are flying by, kids are flying by us. And so we stopped talking and we look up and all of the kids have run out the doors. And Mark I look up in front Mark unplugs his guitar and he runs, starts running out the door and he looks at Rusty on the way out. He goes we better hurry and get in front of them. We need to run and he runs out the door.
Speaker 3:These kids have run out the door of the worship center into the street of Kerrville, texas and we're running down the street singing this song at the top of Kerrville Texas, and were running down the street singing this song at the top of their lungs through the neighborhoods, and so Mark and Rusty and I was sprinting out after them, trying to get in front of them so that we could guide them back around and into the worship center where their parents are. Like what just?
Speaker 2:happened.
Speaker 3:Now here's the thing Guys like me, you know we talk in leadership hyperbole and you know we rally the troops and occasionally spirit moves in a way that the people of God start running, yeah. And then we have a choice. Do we say, get back in here, I was speaking in parable, I don't actually mean it or do we do what Mark said we have to do? We need to run out in front of the people now because they're ready to go. That's right.
Speaker 3:So does the institution serve the movement or does the movement serve the institution? This is a really important question right now. Here's my sense. What you said historically, we are having a mini-Reformation. It may not be the Protestant Reformation, but it's the Methodist Reformation and the movement. The people of God are ready to run for the gospel. This is my sense of it, daniel.
Speaker 3:We told the people hey, you have to make a really hard decision about what you believe, about the gospel, about the Bible, about the authority of scripture, about the person of Jesus Christ. And it was the first time in a few generations Methodist people have ever been told they have to make a hard decision about those things, because we largely operate in pluralistic mindset. Like you know, we celebrated the notion of being a big tent. Yeah, we forgot as narrow as the way that leads to eternal life. You know like, oh, it's a big tent. No, actually, you know the, the pen is. The pen is huge. The pen has room for everyone who enters the narrow gate. So it you know. Yes, of course Scripture says everyone who calls on the name of the Lord can be saved and anyone who does is Everyone can be and anyone who does hard decision and, in many cases walked away from, you know, the, the cemeteries where their ancestors are buried, the, the sanctuaries where they got married and where they they, they, you know said goodbye sometimes to children and family members, look anyway, and? And so now here they are, on the other side and they go.
Speaker 3:Okay, so it turns out what we believe and how we practice it does really matter. So what is it that we really believe? We want the scripture. We don't want your philosophy, we don't want your. You know seven healthy habits of effective this or that. Yeah, you know, those are all good resources, but none of that matters for what we're about. We need Christ at the center, and so I think that's the moment we're in, brother. I think we have to run because our people are on the move, the gospel is on the move and we need to be out front, running as fast as we can and saying let's go this way. And you know, I would love to hear from you I mean because you have been out front running even before some of this stuff so you tell our folks, who are tuned in, dialed up, say, yeah, I am running, where are we headed?
Speaker 2:I mean where can this go? This is my observation is God is, he is, he is renewing and reviving. And I think you know, you mentioned 2012 was kind of that pivotal moment for some of Methodism, but I would, I would say, the the larger global church, even, uh, post COVID, uh, and in the midst of COVID, because that that was uh. There are moments where history confronts, uh, the reality of our beliefs and the foundations of our beliefs, and I think it's in those moments that, uh, really, god helps, the church, helps his people to confirm, refine, clarify the sincerity of those beliefs, the legitimacy of those beliefs, the foundations of those beliefs. And you know, we would use the theological phrasing um, or, or you know, visual, of sifting Right, um, but but just very practically, it causes us to kind of go, okay, what, what do I think here? What do I believe here? Right Again, larger evangelicalism, talking about these ideas of deconstructing ism right, or where people are are kind of taking their faith apart piece by piece.
Speaker 2:Are some who have done that with sincerity? They're really just going? You know, I haven't really investigated this, ryan, I don't know, you know this part of your story, but I know, for me, some of my story was in college, you know I mentioned I started with a degree in science, in physics, and was confronted by some really wonderful, kind loving as the world might define loving people who said, hey, I know you believe in this Jesus stuff, but why I've investigated, I don't really know. Its claims are that legitimate? And I thought, oh man, I've got to take stock of this, I need to understand. And so I wouldn't say I deconstructed, in a sense of like removing things, but you know, kind of pulled all of those theological elements out and just kind of evaluate and say what do I believe here? Does ultimate truth exist? If so, is it knowable by me? Who am I? Uh, you know, and just kind of building out from that um, uh, thinking, and so I think during COVID, the body of Christ, kind of, was having to reevaluate those things.
Speaker 2:And I think what we're finding is, for those who have self-confirmed yes, this is truth, this is real, well then, by necessity, you're compelled off of truth to take action right. Confronting that truth and confronting those beliefs head on compels to take action right. Confronting that truth and confronting those beliefs head on compels us toward action right. If I'm standing in front of a bus, I actually believe the bus is about to hit me, I'm going to do something about it, I'm not just going to stand there and let it run me over. And so I think, even across denominational lines and all those kinds of things, you see people going. Wait a second. We've had a lot of hands raised. We've had a lot of emotional responses. We've had a lot of intellectual but spirit emptied responses. We want people who are genuinely abiding and following in authentic relationship, apprenticeship, followership to Jesus Christ, his way, his teaching, the parts that are celebratory and the parts that are a little hard. We're doing all of that and I think that's where we see genuinely the whole body of Christ moving.
Speaker 2:And I would say the beauty of where I lead and serve with the International Leadership Institute is being able to see that on a global scale, being able to see how the whole church is actually responding and moving. One of our leaders in Latin America he says look, 20% of the world's evangelicals are in Latin America, but we're only 2% of the missionaries. And so, in fact, next week I'll be in Panama meeting with this huge movement of men and women saying, no, that ratio is not okay. This call to mission is not a call to the West, it's a call to all believers and followers of Christ. We have got to be mobilizing the churches here to not be just recipients of the gospel but partakers in its distribution and the global work that God's called us to.
Speaker 2:I was talking to a friend of mine. He serves here in the States, but at a smaller church that has very little financial resources and their average income is like 23,000 US dollars, which in that community is very, very small. I know globally that is a huge number, but in his community their cost of living and such it's a very small number. And he was talking about the struggle of how, in those contexts, it can be difficult to not just feel like a constant victim and a constant recipient of things, but rather to help his people. See, wait a second, I'm not victims, I'm a victorious because of Christ. How can I help people join in that? And so, trying to navigate innovative ways to go about that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's again where some of that movement, some of that excitement and, as you describe, hey, we have to run ahead of that. That's absolutely where I know God has placed us and called us. I would argue, the reason we teach values-based Christian, biblically-based principles of leadership is because those are the things that have to guide. Because the varied ways in which leadership has to take place is so unique, based on the circumstance, we have to have principles that guide us to know, hey, when your buddy said, hey, we got to run out in front of him, part of his mind was thinking we just let a bunch of kids out into the road, who knows where they're going to run, right? So he had hey, I have a responsibility to guide, shepherd and love and care. And that was balanced by they are trying to physically enact the very thing that I want them to do, which is to proclaim with boldness and joy the transformational truth of the gospel. So I'm going to run out in front of them because I know how to run back in a circle that's going to lead them back here for their safe return into some normalcy. But I also know that I cannot squelch God. What you're doing in the midst here. And that's where I think, institutionally, we build out that. How do I say this? We build in our institutions structures that stifle and squelch the ability for the individual to respond, react and lead based on the actual need in the moment. We end up systematizing and processing to such a degree that they no longer have the freedom to respond and move.
Speaker 2:And what I think God is doing right now globally is he is reinvigorating the whole church, the whole church to join in this global initiating kingdom movement. And I really think you know right in our lifetime, brother, the geographic center, the weighted center of the church, is actually going to be sub-Saharan Africa. It's already pretty much there. It's kind of over just a Western sub-Saharan Africa. It's moving. That's where the gospel is exploding and growing.
Speaker 2:How are we seeing that transformation take place? And it's through men and women faithfully helping to make disciples, beginning with a pure presentation of the gospel but then working further into helping people navigate those core, fundamental, foundational beliefs that we all celebrate and together, as the bride of Christ, want to see manifest in his people. Look, he remains Christ, remains the hope for the nations and he remains the means of not only restoration but I would say the total reconciliation. Right, a lot of things broke in the fall and in the garden and we want to see that whole reconciliation take place. And it is through Christ and through his bride, through his people, that he is helping to make that kingdom fully come. Uh, and, man, we look forward, uh, with the whole church saying Maranatha, come, lord Jesus, for that great day when all is uh, redeemed, made whole and right, uh. So, as I'm, as I'm thinking through you know what has that looked like, man? That's what it looks like right now is helping, as the whole church is trying to run forward in some new and exciting ways, to say, hey, let's not lose those foundational core leadership values and principles that allow us to dynamically lead, based on our own context and culture. Because you know what, brother, I was in mid-Texas with you, leading a church there is a little different than in Georgia and I promise it's different for both of us than it is for our brother over there in Rwanda. It's a different kind of thing, and so that's where I know God has called me and our organization to drive our efforts to say, hey, we want to keep pressing that forward, because you're right, man, I think God is on the move in an incredible, powerful way.
Speaker 2:One quick story, just to celebrate that there's a nation that we started working with about seven years ago and in this nation there were maybe 300 believers. Well, we've been faithfully connecting and serving with some of the Christian leaders there. It's a closed nation, very persecuted, hence why I'm not actually referencing where it is militantly and legally opposed to Christianity. Well, a number of years ago a baptism testimony was released and shared in a public way and it created a public outcry. The community was upset over this conversion. Some believers were arrested while in prison.
Speaker 2:God did some incredible things. Not only did he help give them a perseverance of faith in the midst of persecution and threat of death, but he even allowed them to pray for their president and leader. The reports of those prayers got to that leader's ears and he was stunned that these people would be praying for him and he was so taken aback as to even maybe and again this is kind of reports of reports but even to maybe express a little bit of gratitude that they might do that. So he helped to ensure for their release and the recognition of the church there in that country, which is a huge move in the right direction for those peoples. But it even gets better than that. Since that time, that's about 18, 24 months ago, another 200 people have come to faith, so that we're seeing that in these seven years, a more than doubling of the number of believers there and an ongoing recognition and maybe even some protection from the state for this fledgling group of believers.
Speaker 2:People are running out of those gates and it's, I think, incumbent upon us as leaders in positions of influence, both in our organizations but also just within our communities and within the faith community at large. We have to step in and say, okay, how do we help that vision, that excitement, that boldness be caught by the whole church so that we can see the ends of the world reached in the gospel proclaimed to our neighbors and to those who have yet to even hear his name? I know that was a lot, but that's kind of where my mind went in the midst of all of that. Well, ryan, this has been, I think, a wonderful conversation, real quick. Any kind of closing comments or thoughts? I know we've kind of navigated all around here. Anything you just want to add. Maybe a word of encouragement for that leader who's kind of been listening in. Maybe they feel stuck in an institution or unsupported in a movement. What would kind of be your closing thoughts for that leader?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I would just encourage people to remember the mission why we exist. Yeah, it always amazes me how much time committees can spend writing a mission statement for the church. Like Jesus wrote it, just just claim it. Just claim it, and don't don't spend any more time trying to write it, but spend your time trying to decide. Are we living it out? Are we? Is it truly why we exist? And don't be afraid, truly why we exist, and don't be afraid, don't be afraid to reform the institution if the institution is blocking you from carrying out the mission.
Speaker 3:Now, when you're leading a local church, you have to be really thoughtful, careful about that, and I'm not claiming any kind of that. I was ever, ever, necessarily good at that. I mean I, um, you know, um, because institutions give people security, safety, um, you know, in, in, in a world that's more rapidly changing today than at any point in human history, churches are like a bastion of stability, and so it's often hard for people in the local church to want to change. And it's the institutionalism, that, it's the familiarity of the rhythms, of how we do things that sometimes they think provides that. So we have to help them remember that actually it's the mission that provides continuity, that we're going to deliver the same gospel that you know we're going to deliver the same gospel. People may not come to our store to receive it anymore. We may have to figure out how to deliver it digitally, to use our Netflix blockbuster metaphor, but you know those, those things I think for me, you identified in when you were sharing the COVID. Covid broke things all over the world and I think people who thought we'll just go back as soon as possible to the way things were before have missed out and are missing out.
Speaker 3:I remember, in June of 2020, after you know, it became abundantly clear we're not, it's not a two week, four week break and then we're back in business. Like there's going to be a longer time. I went away, uh, cause it didn't matter where I was, so I just went away by myself and prayed. The thing that Lord really pressed on me daniel was at that time. He said you know, we're not going back and the days of you know kind of the, the program church are coming to a close, which was terrifying for me because I led a big program church.
Speaker 3:I was good at it. Uh, there was a reason why at you know know 40, I was at one of the largest churches in our denomination, leading it. It was like I knew how to set that up so that parents drop your kids off at this desk and you won't see them again and we'll take care of them for you and don't worry, you know we'll take care of that for them and we'll entertain them over here. And then you come here and you know we've got social groups and this and that and everything for everyone. And then all of a sudden no program can run and it's like we were like oh hey, you need to disciple your children now. I like how do? We do that.
Speaker 3:No one ever told us how to do that. You told us to check them in at the registration desk and that you would take care of it. Like all of a sudden, we can't. Anyway, that's more than maybe, but to bring it home.
Speaker 3:This is where, as you say, I think we should in the West be embracing that. You know, the shift of the center of gravity for Christendom, because we need to return back to household-centric discipleship, where disciples are being produced primarily in the home, a priesthood of all believers, where we don't outsource leadership to our paid people but, in the same sense of the relationship to a movement institution that we've been talking about, the paid people are there to serve the people and the movement of the people, not to absorb all of their leadership into. You know, single and man, I mean, all of that really wrecked me and I'm still in the process of figuring it out, to be honest with you. But I do know this my partners in Latin America, in Africa, they really they understand.
Speaker 3:You know, the ministry has to be born by the people. It's not, they're not just the recipients of the ministry, they are the doers of, and so things like leadership training and ILI are critical for the equipping and powering of the people to carry the ministry forward. It has to happen in homes, it has to happen in neighborhoods, classrooms, you know, cubicles and companies all across the country. So I'm encouraged. I'm encouraged by what I see happening. I'm excited about the future. We know the church prevails. I think part of what makes me excited was I didn't realize that I would get to be, that I get to run at least half of my professional life in ministry in an expansively growing, even angelically minded, and by that I mean the Evangelion, I mean I'm not politically I'm just I mean excited about sharing Jesus.
Speaker 3:that's radically connected with the global church. I just it's thrilling. I mean I would have continued in what I had experienced before, trying to be faithful every day, but I'm, like, so thankful to the Lord that I get to be bear witness to and, you know, contribute to some of the spirit of what he's doing right now in the mobilization, equipping of people to for the kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven. I mean man. That's exciting and the Lord is doing it by the power of his spirit and I'm grateful that we get to be alive to watch it unfold.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. Hey, leader, if you're listening, I want you to hear. This is at least how I would summarize what I just heard our brother say. More than the comfort, he was committed to the calling. And there's comfort in the familiar, there's comfort in the method or process that you have used historically, but more than those comforts, seek sincere commitment to the calling of Christ above all things, to the calling of Christ above all things. And so, if you're in the midst of trying to figure that out on your own journey, I just want to invite you.
Speaker 2:The International Leadership Institute exists to help equip men and women with biblical leadership values so that they can be successful, faithful contributors to the kingdom, gospel-advancing, gospel-acceler, accelerating people, and so if you're interested in resources like that, go to iliteamorg. You can find more about what those eight core values are. Some resources there. We want to connect you into these kinds of movements and methodologies, because we're seeing God work powerfully as men and women take ownership over the, as you said, brother, the authority that God has given us as the priesthood of all believers. And so, ryan, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation and for just you know, authentically navigating it all with us, man, it's been a real joy.
Speaker 3:Daniel, I appreciate you. The work y'all are doing In mid-Texas we'll have trained 2,000 people in History of Nakers, module one, by the end of this year. Over the last two, it's making a difference. I'm not trying to sell anything, but I'm just giving testimony. We've been hearing reports To the leader that you were talking to. Let me just, let me just say this it doesn't have to be you just dictating. This is what we have to do. If you engage your people in that value based system of learning, they will be the ones to bring it up. So we've heard people in our local churches now who have been through the ILI training the history maker.
Speaker 3:At annual meetings where budgets are being set, decision being made, and they'll ask questions now like this hey, how much of our budget is going to be spent not on ourselves, but on people that don't know the gospel? And they're asking you how much of that's going to be spent in places where you know there's a desert in the gospel? You know where, in those unreached people places? We want it to be more than a fraction of a percentage point, please. And then you know where, where, in those unreached people places, we want it to be more than a fraction of a percentage point, please. And and then you know, leader, you don't have to, you don't have to just dictate, they will tell you. This is how we want the resource guide placed in our care. This is how we want to reach our neighbors. So I mean, I do think that for us it's been a huge accelerant of that culture shift that we started out by talking about is because people are catching a vision and individual responsibility for leading in their churches and leading their churches in that movement running with a little quicker pace to reach the lost before they perish.
Speaker 3:So I really can attest to that and we're so grateful for the partnership that the GMC has with ILI in allowing us to utilize these incredible resources and to put a common language, not just among our churches in mid-Texas, but we'll be running ILI in Bulgaria and Rwanda so that we have shared language amongst all of us in our partnerships across the globe.
Speaker 3:So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Amen. Well, thank you so much, Ryan, for that testimony of how God is using it. Man, I want to say thank you to you all for your faithfulness there. I want to say thank you to anyone who's listening, who's ever partnered with ILI. You help make these things possible so that we can help serve and mobilize the whole body. If this has been helpful for you, hit that like button, hit the subscribe. It's helpful for us and we look forward to catching you on the next one.