ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Explore the transformative journey that is leadership. In each episode, we will dive deep into strategies, stories, insights, and the core values that shape and inspire effective Christian leaders who make an impact - all around the globe. Get ready to unlock your leadership potential.
When leaders are equipped, kingdom impact multiplies. Equipping leaders and spreading the Gospel. Let’s change history together!
This podcast is brought to you by the International Leadership Institute.
ILI: History Makers Leadership Podcast
Ep. 68 | Why Good Teams Fail and How to Build Trust
Ever wonder why some teams implode while others thrive through challenges? This deep-dive episode uncovers the hidden erosion that happens long before visible team failure.
We explore how mission drift silently damages even the strongest teams when leaders fail to provide what teams truly need—not certainty, but clarity. As one leadership expert notes, "People don't need certainty as much as they need clarity," a crucial distinction that transforms how we communicate vision.
The conversation reveals why conflict avoidance masquerading as harmony actually destroys trust faster than healthy disagreement. We examine the powerful difference between "peacekeeping" (maintaining superficial calm) and "peacemaking" (addressing issues with grace and truth).
Perhaps most challenging is our discussion of leadership identity. When leaders derive worth from titles or metrics rather than Christ, they create unstable foundations. "Leadership without intimacy with God is just religious performance," we note, exploring how misplaced identity hampers our ability to empower others and share leadership.
The episode provides practical steps for building enduring team culture: maintaining kingdom alignment, practicing confession and accountability (starting with leaders), celebrating small wins consistently, and leading with genuine humility. We conclude with a powerful reframing: leaders don't own visions—they steward them alongside others pursuing the same mission.
Whether you’re leading in ministry, the marketplace, or your community, this conversation will help you steward vision faithfully, empower your team, and advance the Kingdom together.
When you begin ILI training, you will discover how the Eight Core Values will lead to the Seven Outcomes in your life and the lives of those you lead. Join a community of leaders who are ready to change history and make an impact in this world. Discover more at ILITeam.org/connect.
Hey, I'm really excited. This week we're looking at why do teams fail. There's so many reasons that teams can begin to see trust erode or unity erode, or maybe even vision and mission misalignment. But we're going to talk through some of the most common reasons why teams fail and we're going to look at some healthy practices that you and I can engage in as leaders to help protect against those failures, so that we actually build healthy, strong, thriving teams that help to advance the kingdom.
Speaker 1:I think today's episode of the History Makers Leadership Podcast is going to be incredible. Looking forward to joining in with you. So, Norval, I'm excited to talk with you about this because you know teams, when we lead, we're leading with teams, we're influencing, we're helping other people to know the way. You know, go the way and we're trying to navigate some of those things. But, as a leader of teams, well you know, sometimes those teams can begin to fail and we know that there are the big explosive failures, right, Like oh, my goodness, this just exploded, but it's never that moment that actually lit the fuse, right? It's a series of things and I'd love to just kind of break down with you what are some of the biggest reasons why teams begin to fail. Some of the biggest signs that teams are leading to failure fail some of the biggest signs that teams are leading to failure.
Speaker 2:It's true, daniel. Even great, good teams, even great teams can fail, and usually it has to do with drifting away from some things. You know mission drift is one thing, of course, but also drift from unity. But also drift from unity Little divisions that pull yourself, and from integrity from truth. When teams start walking away from that. It's that little erosion that eats away at it. Little's that. That little erosion, yeah, that eats away at it.
Speaker 1:I can see Norval in all three of those. There's there's relationship between that. Right, if there's mission drift, then of course there's going to be some some unity drift. If there's a lack of integrity, then we're not going to have unity or or mission alignment, like I can see the relationship between those, but I love how you've intentionally separated them out, because I think it's in every one of those categories that we could do some self-analysis and some self-review and honest reflection to say, okay, as I'm leaving the team, is there sincere mission alignment or is it, you know, just that, two degrees different? That can kind of grind those gears of operation over time and lead to disunity or lack of integrity. So what are some ways that, in personal reflection, we can kind of look or see some of those things beginning to creep in? I mean, what does that look like in our teams as we encounter that slow drift in mission or that slow drift in unity? What are some ways that that kind of manifests itself?
Speaker 2:Well, a lack of shared vision and a sense of calling are it's kind of the beginning of it, isn't it? When either we start drifting from the vision that God gave us or, as a leader, we don't give clarity. Gosh, one of the biggest lessons that I've learned and I've learned that during COVID, and I repeat it often, I might have said it more than once on our podcast conversations people don't need certainty as much as they need clarity. Certainty is impossible, and we've learned that during the pandemic. Oh yeah, there's nothing certain about it, nothing was certain, but you can give clarity was certain, but you can give clarity. And so the lack of shared vision can come from not communicating the vision well enough and with clarity.
Speaker 2:You know when they're on our white board. In the training department, there was a season where we had a big sentence there Clarity is kindness.
Speaker 1:That's right, I think. I think that's such a key phrase, right, it's not about having certainty in all those elements, but but the clarity in that communication and the consistency of that communication. Because, you know, even good teams will begin to have moments of failure. As that, as that, as that clarity erodes, right, A leadership failure isn't always betrayal. Sometimes it's just busyness that isn't in alignment, and so that clarity results in a sense of, or the lack of clarity results in a sense of man. I am doing a lot of work without any actual movement, without any contribution, without actually moving forward, I'm just busy and man. That begins to really erode that trust and that belief in the vision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting that you take me back to a season when, in my own team, there was that sense that people were grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding, working very hard, losing sleep over work without it producing what we hoped it would. But it was a moment of there wasn't clarity in some things, in the vision and the calling, the sense of calling. You know we can do grunt work if we know what it's for Right. You know I'll use gardening as an illustration.
Speaker 2:For years I've been out in my backyard and sweating and digging here and digging there, digging through roots and pulling out rocks like there's no tomorrow, because that's where we live, and sometimes it looks like I just did a little thing here. But then as time goes by, I start looking and I start seeing it. It starts, it's looking better, it's a pleasant place, it's a place that blesses my wife because she loves to be there. She calls it her happy place. Then you start seeing the purpose. So the next time I have to go out there and sweat, sweat, sweat and get tired, I know there's a purpose to it. And sweat, sweat, sweat and get tired, I know there's a purpose to it.
Speaker 1:And so that sense of calling and sense of purpose is what maintains the team when there's a lot of hard work to be done, which is always yeah, I mean, when you're doing good work, when you're doing kingdom work, you know there's going to be that again, that hard work that's in the midst of it.
Speaker 1:I think, again asking the question why do teams fail?
Speaker 1:And we understand that, lacking a shared vision or clarity around that shared vision.
Speaker 1:But I think sometimes, if I'm honest, a lot of Christian leaders, particularly pastors, can begin to believe that if they just talk about the vision more, that's going to create the clarity when I think sometimes it's actually an exercise of, of course we have to talk and share the vision, but we also have to listen. We have to be careful to pause long enough in the hecticness and the busyness of the world around us to listen, to understand what is it that they perceive the vision to be, so that where there is misalignment, it can be heard. Because if I say the same things over and over and over again, where there is misalignment it can be heard. Because if I say the same things over and over and over again and they keep hearing it differently than I intend to communicate it, then I just keep reinforcing the misalignment rather than creating a context where that clarity can take place and the alignment can come. There's got to be that element of listening in order for that clarity to come, and the clarity helps us have that unified vision well, the clarity.
Speaker 2:The clarity is about the, the goal of communication. You, you haven't communicated until it's understood, until it's grasped. And so if you, if you look at communication in that way, a receiver oriented, if the focus is on the people and if, if the relationship because there are some other things that erode group dynamics, that can cause a group to fail, that are relational, that's right and so they play together with the whole vision thing can derail a team, is when we avoid talking about conflict and let it simmer In the name of peace. Like you said, we try to keep the peace instead of make peace, and it was Ken Sandy that talked about the difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking. And so a lot of times we don't communicate enough, especially in situations of conflict, and this may come to our here listeners as a surprise, but there will be conflict.
Speaker 1:I mean, look, there was conflict for Jesus, the greatest leader who has ever walked the face of the planet.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's going to be conflict for me. And you know, I think it's so great that we're talking about these kind of in tandem, norval, because I do think sometimes we can struggle with the finding the clarity, the alignment of vision, because we don't want to address the conflict, we want to keep peace rather than make peace. And making peace is going to be navigating that hard conversation with the grace necessary to speak truth and love and to hear truth, knowing that it's covered by an umbrella of grace and love from the people around us. And that's a real tension and, I think, a real sign of maturity and growth in effective leaders, particularly effective Christian leaders, who are trying to make meaningful steps toward team success and avoid the typical failures of a team it is, it is, um, it's almost about, it's almost like we need to embrace conflict and and and and resolve it, because false nothing kills trust like false harmony oh man yeah, you know that it's all nice and dandy, but it isn't.
Speaker 1:Well, because it portrays the individual who wants there to be peace, who wants there to be harmony. They feel like maybe it's there or they want it to be there, but the other person sitting there going. I don't feel harmony, I don't feel peace and it really erodes that trust. It really erodes that confidence and you know that can lead to incredibly detrimental effects. And, norval, I have to confess, I think sometimes as leaders we yearn for that peace because we want to be the kind of leader that can lead peacefully and have a team that's full of peace. But I think sometimes there's a failure of identity in the midst of that that can really bring about another kind of failure for our teams.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, misplaced identity when it's about your title or your seniority or your position or whatever, as opposed to being, about Jesus being. Who are we? Sons and daughters? Yeah, brothers and sisters, that's right. Family, that's right. So that when I guess, when we have to pull rank, something is yeah, something's askew.
Speaker 1:You know I reflect on that and you know the Lord's really been ministering to my heart here recently, just reminding me of the scripture. It says unless the Lord builds the house, the laborer labors in vain. And that has to be true for every Christian leader, whether we're in the marketplace or a secular context, or a political context or a church context. We need to recognize that unless the Lord is building it, we're laboring in vain and we need to keep our identity not rooted in our metrics but in a heart of sincere abiding in the Father. And you know the language we use at ILI is ultimately intimacy with God, to live in an intimate walk with the Father, knowing that that intimacy is really where we'll find meaning, value, purpose and will protect us from leading our teams out of a misplaced identity, because that's a huge way for those teams to experience failure which, when we are sure of who we are in christ, we are free to serve, we are free to empower others because we never feel threatened.
Speaker 2:We are free to, to let go, yeah, and, and let people, let people thrive, because leaders who know who they are in Christ are just free from spiritual ambition.
Speaker 1:There you go. There was one guy. He said it this way. He said leadership without intimacy with God is just religious performance. And I really reflect on that and I think you know in my own heart I bristle at that. I don't want to have a life that's just performance and I really reflect on that and I think you know in my own heart I bristle at that. I don't want to have a life that's just performance. I want to have a life of abundance and a life of rest in who God has called me, made me and says that I am and I worship and perform as an expression of worship. Right, I live that out of that abundance rather than trying to make it on my own. And if I'm not doing that, it really does put my team in a position to fail.
Speaker 2:Well it is. I'm reminded of a Brazilian author who wrote a book called Until Nothing Else Matters, and he said what inspired that book was one day when God called him to repentance. He had declared that that was going to be the year that he was going to seek the presence of God more than ever. And God called him to repent because it was and he felt the spirit. The Holy Spirit said you're, you're just breaking your records of how much you pray, how much you fast, how much you read the Bible, and that's performance. So he committed to stop performing and seeking Jesus for Jesus, god for God. And that kind of leader can lead with unity, with vision, you know, with a sense of calling and managing conflict properly.
Speaker 1:Well, that kind of leader is managing and practicing effective soul care, effective relationship management, because their identity is rooted in the right spot. But if we don't practice those things, I think that too right. In addition to our identity, the lack of effective soul care personally, the lack of effective relational care, that can really lead to damage to our teams too.
Speaker 2:As a team, we have a job to do, but we, we will only do it insofar as our relationships are healthy and we will only relate to each other in in a healthy way. If, if we, if we have, if our rhythms are balanced, let's say, let's say that if we're healthy and and I'm not always healthy so we're on the same team you have a responsibility to help me through that unhealthy moment, because tomorrow, guess what?
Speaker 1:It might flop.
Speaker 2:You'll be the one in the unhealthy place. That's right. Earlier we had a failure here. We had one of the lights fail and we joked that you're in the dark spot in life. Well, sometimes we are in a dark place in life and we need that soul care. So when, as a team, we care for each other, I heard a famous pastor of one of the largest churches in California say that he wants everybody on his team, on his boards on his team, I want people who will watch my back. I want people in whom I can rely and who will watch over me, and then I'll watch their backs. That's right. And so, as a team, if we have that mentality, that soul, the expression soul care yeah, I can take care of my soul, I can seek God and pray, but for the most part it's going to be through you caring for my soul or you helping me care for my soul when I need it, and then I help care for your soul when you need it, and that's well. A team like that won't fail.
Speaker 1:Right and I think that's you know. I've even talked with faithful men and women in the marketplace who love the Lord and even they're noting at this season and in the modern age they're seeing incredible need for that, even that same soul care in their secular staff who don't even yet have a relationship with Jesus, don't even yet have a relationship with Jesus. But the practice of caring for them brings real, meaningful transformation in the market, in the business and in the work that they're doing. I mean, the classic example we love to give people, as I'm talking to a marketplace user, is they say hey, don't you think our employees will do better if their family life is in a healthy place?
Speaker 1:And they go well, yeah, and I go exactly Like we should be caring about how their family life is in a healthy place and they go. Well, yeah, and I go exactly Like we should be caring about how their family's doing right, and that's some of that kind of soul care. And, to your point, I think a failing team is one that doesn't see the health of the team as an expression of the health of the individual. And so we're caring for each other's souls because we recognize wait a second, if you're unhealthy, we're unhealthy, and that's going to bring an impact. Right, when Paul gave us the example of the body of Christ being a body, any part of that body that has some weakness affects the whole body. Right, if I've stubbed my toe and it's wounded in some way when I'm walking, it affects my gait, that's going to affect my knees, my hip, my back. It's going to start impacting my ability to function and it's the same, not to mention your humor Very true, but that all carries an impact.
Speaker 1:So if we want to be an effective leader, we want to keep our teams from failure, we got to watch that soul care, those rhythms of relationships and really not leave ourselves so on the edge that we lack the Sabbath, the peace, the pace to go. Hey, I care about you, I know you and I know where you're at in life.
Speaker 2:So, daniel, how do we get there, how do we build, how do we practice a culture that will endure in our team.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I think it's really got to begin, particularly for Christian leaders, in an explicitly Christian context. It's got to begin with a clear understanding of God's mission and connecting our mission into that mission to help people see the direct line between the advancement of the kingdom, the expansion of his good name and glory, the good news spreading to all Like it's got to connect those things to the daily tasks that we're doing and the objectives that we have as a team and an organization.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking that a mission, a vision and mission, individual or an organization, it's great, not because it's lofty and achieves. It is as great as it is aligned with the mission of God. So the closest it is to alignment with God's purpose and God's mission, the greatest this vision is. And as leaders, that's our responsibility to calibrate that. You know, it's like you have these two lines and this one tends to drift a little bit and you have to align it again.
Speaker 1:Well, look, there was somebody else who said it. But we don't drift toward kingdom alignment. We have to fight to maintain it. And just as much as any senior leader is going to fight to maintain vision or mission, the senior leader's got to do the hard work of seeing how does this align with the kingdom? How do I communicate that clearly within my context so that we all see that and can really find that clarity and unity together? And listen, this is even true in the marketplace, right?
Speaker 1:I was talking to a business leader over in Nigeria and he was talking about his business. He really has a heart to see that his community is lifted out of poverty the people in that market segment it was geology and mining. He really wanted to see that a safer place for work that cared for employees and people, and so he was trying to figure out how do I align that with the kingdom? I don't want a buddy. Listen, god cares about people. He cares about families. Family is the building block of society. He made the world, so all of those natural resources that have blessed this country should be blessing the people of this country. That's a transformational message that moves the needle and helps people to begin seeing their work, having a greater alignment with the kingdom, and even that helped that secular company with a Christ centered leader helped to recenter it and refocus it. So, norval, we're going to start there, keeping that kingdom alignment, that mission alignment, seeing our greatest value there. What's the next thing we need to do?
Speaker 2:How about accountability? We need you know it's interesting we need to practice confession and accountability. And I guess when I say confession I don't mean you know hey, you know I flirted with somebody yesterday or I was dishonest with my money but the confession in the sense of the little things that drain the culture.
Speaker 1:Well, the rule I've given myself, norval a while ago was I know that I make mistakes and if I make mistakes I should apologize. So if I'm not apologizing to my team, then I'm not acknowledging the mistakes that I've made. And if I know I'm making mistakes, then I know I should be apologizing. And when I struggle to do that know I'm making mistakes then I know I should be apologizing. And when I struggle to do that, it's really an issue of pride and a lack of humility. And so, yeah, there has to be that accountability. And I'll say this you know, leaders, we have to be the ones that really engage in that step. We've got to take the initiative there, because it's very unlikely that the people we're leading are necessarily going to step up and say, hey, you did this wrong. It takes a really courageous team and a lot of trust on that team to do that. It takes a lot less for me to be able to say, oh, holy spirit, you've told me, this was wrong.
Speaker 2:I need to confess that, I need to apologize and I need to find that accountability and move forward and it's a great opportunity for for a leadership by example because, if, if, right, Because if the big boss recognizes mistakes, doesn't think he's perfect, doesn't think his ideas are always the best, and is humble enough to confess and admit to his shortcomings, well, maybe this is a safe place for me to recognize my failures as well. Well, maybe this is a safe place for me to recognize my failures as well, because for a subordinate, especially in a paid environment, corporate world, volunteers are a little different. I'm going to admit to my errors and my failures before the guy who does my quarterly evaluation and then determines my salary for the next year.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to keep it to myself. But if, as a leader at the top, we're practicing confession, we're practicing accountability even with those who are under us, That'll be a great example. People will not be afraid to be sincere.
Speaker 1:I heard one leader, Norval, he said it this way. He said never forget, people will celebrate your victories and connect in your failures. And if all we want is to be celebrated, then we know where that heart is, we know what that struggle is. But if we want to have connection with our teams, if we want to be unified with our teams, then sharing those failures creates that connection, creates that sense of camaraderie and connection and that's going to be transformational for our teams, protecting us from those failures.
Speaker 2:Right, but we don't always fail. Sometimes we have wins. Well, sure, yeah, and, and the next point, the next, the next way that we can build a culture is celebrating the small everyday wins of integrity, of quality. You know, just recognize everything. I remember, uh, very clearly a message, one of the very few, less first lessons in leadership many years ago celebrate publicly, um, correct, privately, yeah, which unfortunately a lot of a lot of leaders do it backwards. You know, when they got something to celebrate, they'll go and celebrate privately, but when they need to point out a mistake, they'll do it in front of everybody else. That doesn't help culture. That doesn't help build a team that can, that can pull a team down real quick.
Speaker 1:Well, and I'll be honest, I think you know this is one normal that I really struggle with.
Speaker 1:I'm not good even for myself to celebrate victories, big or small, along the way, because I see the next thing, I see the next opportunity, I see the next struggle, I see the next victory on the horizon, and so there's good to that.
Speaker 1:There's good in pursuit, but there's also a real challenge. If I want to protect my team from failure, if I want to build a team that is thriving, I've got to be effective on getting those celebrations in, and sometimes it may be like identifying who on the team is the best celebrator, and I'm going to make sure they know. Hey, I need your help in this. It's a great way to elevate that individual, disciple them, develop their leadership and influence and help them to grow in the midst of that process and really again take the focus off of self and really deploy that focus of the team to hey, wait a second, guys, we are going to celebrate and it's good and easy and natural for this person to celebrate and I'm going to be present and active in that. But we've got to be effective at celebrating those wins.
Speaker 2:It is. It is encouraging to those who are part of it is encouraging to those who are not part of it, because they want to be the next ones celebrating, that's one of the reasons why we do shout outs every week at ILI, don't we?
Speaker 1:We do every week. We sit there, we shout out, we each identify hey, who's a person in the organization that has really been just having some wins? We want to have a culture of appreciation. There's a great author his name escapes me, but he's got a whole movement called Workplace Appreciation. It's similar to the love languages, if you're familiar with that concept. But man, he's seen some incredible results both within churches and within marketplace organizations to say these are transformational practices that build a culture of appreciation. And what gets praised gets repeated, what gets celebrated gets redone, and so do those things, celebrate those things, identify those things and live out that kind of hope-filled vision for your team, vision for your team.
Speaker 2:And then I guess, finally, how do we build a team? Humility, lead with humility. Paul writes to the Philippians let's each of you not look only to his own interest, but also to the interest of others.
Speaker 2:It is about the people as much as some of us wants to make. It about the vision and the task. You know, we all we often talk about task-oriented people versus people oriented people. There is there is no, there is no success in pure task orientation. Yeah, and I've learned this the hard way because I'm task oriented and so I've learned that I need to be pastoral, I need to be at least half and half task people oriented. But to be honest with you, because if you have the right people in the right places, with the right motivation, with the right vision, then the task gets accomplished.
Speaker 1:Well and Norval, I think again this word humility really does form a bit of foundation, and here's some of why I think so many times as leaders there's such a natural inclination to make it about us, to make it about the individual. You know, we look at these great men and women of faith over generations and time past and we make it about those individuals and it's because we can tell their one story faster than we can tell the story of the hundred other people that were involved in it. Right, we look at Paul and we say man, look at all the incredible things Paul accomplished in his life for the kingdom man, that's incredible. And we can easily forget the hundreds of people that fundamentally made that series of journeys possible, the countless gifts, the countless partnerships, the faithful prayers, the people that were sent by their churches, the churches that sought him out, all that Paul had in terms of support structure around him. They are not unimportant to the story, they're essential to the story.
Speaker 1:And as leaders it can be easy for us to begin to slide into a position where we lack the humility to remember it is the community, it's the team, it's the group that is going to ultimately advance that kingdom initiative, because God gave the mission of advancing the kingdom and he gave equipping to the body of Christ, and that isn't an individual congregation, that is the whole body, and so it's the whole body that's advancing that kingdom. It's the whole body that's advancing that mission and it's not even one individual. So it has to be the group of us working together and of course there's someone that has to be leading that, who has to be using influence and stewarding influence to give direction, to give insight, to make key decisions and to listen as God's guiding so that those things can be done. But it doesn't make it personally owned, it just makes it something that that's the role we play in the midst of that event.
Speaker 2:I think I love the word that you used, that you know we call leaders visionaries, and that's why we exalt the individual. I'm a visionary. We don't own the vision, we steward the vision. We steward the vision and, as such, it's definitely not about me, it's not about you, that's right. It's about a vision that God entrusted to us and we are stewards of it. That's right. And hopefully we'll pass it on to others that will continue to steward it faithfully. But it it requires a whole, a whole team of people, yeah, to accomplish the vision. And who? A whole group of people who will co-steward that vision with us and get to the point where we are building God's kingdom on earth and making God's will on earth as it is in heaven. That's our goal, Amen.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, listen, leaders, I just want to invite you Again at the International Leadership Institute. We exist to train and equip leaders so that they can advance the kingdom, accelerate the gospel across their nations and across the world, and we want to see healthy and effective teams. We just list through some of the most common failures and some ways to avoid them. But let me tell you, at the foundation of all of this, as leaders, you need to be men and women of Christlike character, and we teach what we have identified as the eight core values of the most effective Christian leaders. They are incredible tools to help you grow in your life and leadership, and not only that, but for you to actually begin discipling others within your team so that there's a shared language of leadership for all of you, that there's a shared language of leadership for all of you, so it can be that mutual accountability and that mutual growth and the transformation that comes when men and women are equipped to advance the kingdom. Listen, if that's of interest to you. You want to learn more about that.
Speaker 1:I want to encourage you go to iliteamorg and you can be a part of this global movement across more than a hundred nations, serving more than 20,000 people each year. We praise God for an incredible legacy of impact. We want to invite you to be a part of it. If you want to go to that website, you're going to find some great resources. You're going to find some ways that you can participate, pray and maybe even experience those eight core values for yourself. Thank you so much for joining on this particular week. We love serving Christian leaders and if there's particular ways we can be praying for you or helping you to grow as a leader, please don't hesitate to reach out, maybe leave a comment. We'd love to respond and react to those. Thanks so much for joining us this week.