Ep. 101 | The Strategic Power of Building Local Leaders

Are you leading from a place of performance or proximity? Many ministry leaders today face a crushing pressure to produce results and "grow big," while their congregations feel unknown and stuck in a cycle of consuming content. If you see the brokenness in the world but struggle to find a sustainable way to move the needle, you aren’t alone. 

In this episode, we explore the "indigenous advantage"—the unique strategic power of the local leader. We discuss why "celebrity" ministry and imported strategies often have a short shelf life compared to solutions born from within a local culture. Learn how to move your community from passive consumption to true biblical discipleship by prioritizing relationships over performance. 

Key Takeaways:

• Performance vs. Proximity: Identify and break the cycle of "crushing" pressure to perform in ministry. 
• The Power of Local Leadership: Why solutions born from within your own context can yield stronger, long-term outputs. 
• True Discipleship: The vital distinction between simply "teaching" content and "discipling" through relational proximity.
• Sustainable Strategy: Why imported tactics can be demoralizing and how to seek healthy, internal growth. 

Transcript

Why Local Leaders Matter

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Norval, uh, I'm really excited to be sitting with you talking about this today. Um, because there's kind of three groups of people that I'm thinking about as we have this conversation about the importance of a local leader. Um the first group is really the the kind of pastoral ministry staff of so many churches where there's this constant pressure to perform and to produce, and it's crushing them. It overwhelms them, it's it's it's surrounding them, and they feel that that urgency. Uh uh, I've got to perform, I've got to perform, I've got to perform, I've got to produce, I've got to produce, right? I've got to be big. I've got to be big, I gotta be big. And if I'm not big, I'm failing, right? Um, that's that's one group of people that I think this conversation may help. But I'm also really intrigued. I think there's a group of people that are attending churches that don't feel known, they don't feel seen, and so they're they're kind of stuck in this consuming Christian cycle, looking for an exit, trying to figure out where else they should go, what else should they, because this just doesn't fill me. This just doesn't feed me. Um, and I think there's something for them in the midst of this. But but there's a third group as well. I I think there's a group of people that uh they're really looking and asking, you know, what's the best way? I see the brokenness in the world, and I long to see the hope of the gospel change people's lives, but darn it, I just can't find the best way to move that forward. I can't move that needle. Um, and I think today's conversation about the importance and the power of a local leader is gonna be a really interesting kind of meld of those three groups.

The World’s Disciple-Making Challenge

SPEAKER_01 1:40

What do you think? Well, uh, I just when you were talking about, you know, the reaching of the world and all of that, um, I was reminded that there are, gosh, three, three and a half billion people who have never heard of Christ. Yeah. Then there is another probably three, three and a half billion people on this planet who for whom either Christianity is a is is is a is an is the other religion, or it's my religion, but it really doesn't mean a thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

It's my religion, but not my practice.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

No, it's my religion, but not my life. It's not my uh yeah. So how are this is a massive amount of people.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

And so how is the church going to actually make disciples of all of these nations? And that's where that's where this conversation is so relevant because it's not gonna be through big, massive uh great men or women of God of great leadership. They might be a part of it, but it's really gonna be well the local, the local leader.

From Celebrity Content To Real Discipleship

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I want to I want to talk about that a little bit, right? I want to talk about the local advantage, the indigenous advantage, right? Um, we live in a day and age, which praise God, there's a lot of benefits to it, the day and age in which we live. All right, but we live in a day and age where I can follow a celebrity pastor. Yeah, I can follow a celebrity Christian. And yet, in my own zip code, in my own backyard, I can feel the complete absence of leadership. Why do you think we we live in that kind of a context?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Well, you're talking about we follow. Uh, we have gotten gone you gotten used to consuming Christianity. I mean, um I do it the same. I watch Louis Gigliou, I watch uh Tim Mackey, I watch Tim Keller, I watch uh some of the pastors in Brazil. And and I have to admit, and a lot of times I consume their content. I have no involvement with them necessarily. I have um I have no saying in in in what they're gonna what their next message is going to be. Um they have no particular saying in my life. Um and so the the online availability of every everybody being now at my doorstep uh may give me the idea that I'm connected to everybody, but I'm not. I'm what I'm really connected to is the pastor of my local church, is my small group leader, is the person that sits next to me on my pew, it's my wife, it's my children, my grandchildren.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Well, I think, I think, I think you said it really, really well. I can follow them in a consumption way, but I can't follow them in a uh carrying the dust off their feet kind of way, right? Picking up the dust off their feet, right? That's the that's that kind of that disciple, that that that old uh uh uh Jewish concept of like being so close, you're gathering the dust off of their feet as they walk, you know. Um, and I do, I do think that's um that's an important piece to uh being discipled, not just consuming the the intellectual uh words or the emotional uh stories that are shared from one person to another.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

As great as those as those might be. Oh, yeah. Um, um, I'm I'm not saying, you know, watching all these international, they're not necessarily celebrities, but internationally known pastors and preachers and leaders doesn't add value to my faith. It does greatly. Yeah. But that's not where I am being discipled into uh the likeness of Jesus.

Why Imported Strategies Fail Locally

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Right. And I think maybe that's an important distinction is the discipled versus taught, right? Because again, I praise God, there have been some incredible uh uh uh men and women that have been able to speak into my life, even though I don't know them personally, even though I can't follow them personally. Um But here's your question for us, right? We want to talk about the advantage of a local leader. Uh what is it, what do you think it does to a culture uh or to a group when you import a new strategy or you import a new tactic or you import before you listen to the local idea or the local concept?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Well it I I I believe it has a sh it I'm thinking it had probably has a short shorter self-life. Shelf life. Yeah. It it may last for a season. Uh it may. It's interesting. If I import a strategy, if I can if I go and consume a strategy, I'm buying, I'm being a consumer of that particular strategy that I now put it all put into practice in my own church. I'm gonna generate consumers again.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Because it's because strategy, again, as important as strategy might be, we are both strategists.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Um uh strategy does not replace relationships and culture.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Well, and and I also think there's there's there's the balance of knowing, it doesn't replace the relationships, it doesn't replace the culture. But but it, you know, when I import a solution, it really communicates, I think to the people, you don't know what you're doing. You you don't know, you can't, you're not able. I I gotta imagine there's a degree to which when you import a solution, uh it's demoralizing, it's frustrating. Uh maybe sometimes it works, maybe sometimes you you hit it out of the park. Uh, you know, there's some interesting research coming out now about there are these uh uh particularly in the West, there are these uh businesses that their entire business is consulting. That's all it is, right? Um, and yet they're finding over and over again, uh, some recent research out of the late 90s and early 2000s, that these consulting businesses actually didn't do anything advantageous uh for the company, uh for the companies that they consulted with. In fact, they they gave them some strategies or some solutions that resulted in some immediate change, but for a long term long-term collapse of the business and of the market segment, um, such that, again, uh, what did they do? They imported a solution, and the instead of seeking from within, and I think I think a lot of leaders understand intuitively, wait a second, a solution that is born from inside will come with some better elements and some stronger outputs.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

And and and the thing about um we imp instead of importing solutions, okay, there's a church down in Florida in the United States that is that is doing this amazing thing and they're growing and they're so one thing is to ask, okay, what is it that they do that I can bring it? Yeah. Other question is what is happening underneath the surface that is that is making that emerge that is causing that to happen. Yeah. So if we can tap into what God is doing underneath the surface that is generating that, well, that's what we need to not import, but we need to learn and seek for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Yeah, and I think that's the that's an important distinction. You, of course, should look, could, and and and have opportunities to learn across a variety of platforms and across a variety of people's experiences and all that kind of stuff. But but the power of the local leader is is that they understand the internals already. And so if you take that and you teach that local leader, that local influencer, uh uh, rather than uh importing a solution, you you you take that person with all that they've experienced so far, and then you invest in them learning new ideas, learning new strategies. All right. Now, now you've got somebody who's able to already think from the frame of, well, here's who I know we are, here's who I know what we do, right? And this is where I think, particularly for for churches on mission, right, for individuals who are focused on the Great Commission, for for people who are following in the way of Jesus, uh, it's an important set of questions for us to look at. Because, you know, I I think the the right question behind us is, hey, what is this, what is the impact of this as we think about mission? What is the impact about uh on this for for me as an individual as I think through uh being a local leader, being a uh just a member of a congregation? Um how do I uh uh effectuate change? How do I not just bring in outsider outside ideas or outside programs, but actually be a part of what God's doing uh around the world?

Proximity Beats Top-Down Leadership

SPEAKER_01 10:54

And and I'm thinking that it that is part of the of the the good leadership is is bringing that out in people. Yeah. Good leader, good local leadership is having that open conversation with people.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Well, and it and it it's not that that heavy top-down kind of a structure, right? Absolutely, right? What are some can can you think of a moment where you've seen that top-down really just explode and become so difficult?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

But here's but here's the thing though the top-down presumes a certain distance. And one of the things that we've talked about, the benefits of local leadership is that leadership is that proximity. So, in a sense, there they're the problem is people have this uh model of an ideal leader that is the celebrity or the superhero. If they can be delivered from that and realize that they're they're much closer to their people. Well, yeah, I and and so and and and that they're closer economically, they're closer culturally, they're culturally, sometimes even in terms of education and knowledge and all of that. They're you said something interesting about you know, a lot of these house church movements that are happening out there, that really the pastor is just because they're the they're the pastor by virtue of being the first one who came to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

So they've walked with Jesus for a couple weeks more than the others. So that proximity, I think it's a protection against a top-down um leadership uh approach. Um, but of course, it's all about if we're if we're looking at us as outsiders, as as an organization like ILI that empowers the local leader, um, it's helping them to see and identify God's vision in their hearts and put it to practice right there at that level where there isn't a lot of top-down because there isn't a top-down. It's a small community.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Well, and and I think, I think in today's world, right, there's so much um uh uh we we do. We live in a very digital world that makes us feel like um we should be heard, we should be known, we should be understood. But yet people feel so detached from that, right? There's so many who feel detached from that, they don't feel known. And I think in a very top-down way, it's not possible, right? I mean, if I've got 4,000 or 40,000 people uh under under my leadership, there there's there's no way I can know all 40,000 people. Like it's just not it's not even tenable. Um, so where do you think you you honed in on that word proximity? Where do you think the idea of mobilizing a local leader, mobilizing a local person of influence plays a role in helping others in that community feel known, feel seen, feel heard?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Well, remember what Paul said in uh uh in Ephesians chapter four when he talks about the apostolic gifts. Okay, you know, apostle and the and the evangelist and the prophet and the teacher and the I'm missing one, the prophet and teacher, and so at the end of that passage he says, those ministries exist to build people up to the likeness of Christ. There you go. So that is to me, if not the secret, one of the secrets of avoiding a top-down approach. Because isn't it if if the if the apostolic gifts or if the uh the if these these the what the five a lot called the fivefold ministry, they are if they are to build the people up, it's not a top-down, it's a bottom-up approach. Yeah. Because they are they are they're not asked to rule over, but to build the people up.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Well, a lot of pastors today, Norval, I think they I think they feel like their churches are full of consumer Christians who are just there to consume. So how do they how do they help build up that person? How do they help them uh uh um really feel known and a part of that community, uh, and not just somebody who's who's coming to to you know receive a program?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Wow, that's that may be the million-dollar question, uh Daniel. It is it because even uh, you know, I go, I I I attend a small church, you attend a small church. Um I think your model of house church is so much better uh at helping people feel seen and and recognized and known. Because because you're all sitting around in a living room, uh you know, worshiping together, doing church together. Um, you know, long many years ago I've heard my my dad used to quote that, that church is the only place where you go to look at people's the back of people's necks. You know, because you sit there and and and and you're watching, you know, you're watching a concert. Um you want to see one thing that that that I I push back against in my own life. I don't know if you've noticed that worship now is there's there's like a structure of the songs, and a lot of times, at the very least, the first verse and first chorus of the song is sung by one individual, and everybody else is watching. And um I don't I don't know where we changed from everybody singing the song with the congregation to the worship, to one of the worship leaders doing it. And it's just a sign. I mean, that's not the pro that's not the issue, but it's a sign that that people have come to watch and perform. Now, that is a that is a lot harder when you don't have a PA system and you don't have when you're in a living room.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Well, and and I think, you know, uh it won't surprise you to know uh some of the reasons why I think that's a a a viable strategy. And this isn't to speak ill of any other strategy, but it's a viable technique uh for mobilizing a local leader because, you know, um when we think about Jesus' statement to love our neighbor as ourself, right? Um we remember our first neighbor is our family, right? It's our spouses, our children, then it's our literal neighbors, right? And when a church, when a group of believers meet in my home, um it's hard to be more local than my home. It's hard to be more local than Todd Drive, right? Like that, that, that street is is about as local as I can possibly be. And it moves people. Uh, I think, I think the way we move people there is is by being in their community um and by by acknowledging we're both in this community, by definition, we both know each other a bit better because we share so many elements of community already. And I think that's one way to help move some of that is is by by recognizing wait a second, there are things that are local to you and there are things that are local to me. And when we share that locality, uh there's a connection and a deeper relationship that can take place, pulling you out of the I'm just receiving space to the I'm now a member in space. And I think that's a an important distinction, an important transition.

The Local Church In A Crisis

SPEAKER_01 18:36

And uh, and and I believe another thing about the the small and the local is the the issue of neighborhood. I mean, I've been thinking ever since we've started here that Jesus talks about loving our neighbor, uh, not not the guy on the other side of the city. Yeah now that's that's a little bit of a shallow interpretation of the word neighbor, uh, but but it just led me to to thinking of that that importance of that local, be it a house church or be it a neighborhood church congregation. You know, and um we live in we live in the south of the United States where there are churches everywhere, and every every now and then, I mean, even even on my drive uh from home to my church, you pass neighborhood churches, churches that are small and that that once were the neighbor the church of that neighborhood. That's right. And uh, and that proximity, and honestly, you know this, we've been around the world, around the world, that is there are many more neighborhood churches or village churches than mega city churches. Uh and um and that causes an effectiveness of mission that that is is tremendous. Um I remember, and we were mentioning this before uh we started recording, um, it was during the AIDS pandemic that I believe it was Rick Warren that proposed to governments and to United Nations and whoever else that the only way to stop the spread of the pandemic, of the AIDS pandemic, which was ravaging Africa in particular, was for the only organization, the only human institution capable of doing what needed to be done in terms of the education, in terms of the distribution of the anti anti-retroviral drugs and and all the other things that needed to be done to stop the spread of AIDS, was the local church. Because the local church was local, it was everywhere. Yeah, it was to use a medical term, it was capillary.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

It had that capillarity, it was everywhere. So if you could, if you could influence the church, the church would be able to influence. And I'm I believe uh one of the main reasons why Africa has uh, or or let's say this one of the main victories that Africa had in the fight against AIDS was the participation of the local church.

Sending Mission As Being Local Elsewhere

Stop Overmanaging People Into Consumers

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Well, and I think I think that connects back to the larger gospel statement, right? If in culture, if there are individuals, and even individuals listening to this, who feel like they're not known, they're not seen, they're they're hurt or their heartache is missed, the gospel and the the the church, right? The the institution of the church, the gathered body uh given the mission to spread the gospel, that is an unbelievable mechanism for helping people. In fact, it is the best mechanism for helping people to feel seen, feel known, feel understood, feel connected. But the the the structure. of that that is most successful is that that local individual, that one friend, and that's what we know about the the the sharing of faith, right? It's the it's the individual to another individual. So one-on-one interactions that that over and over and over again uh reveal and produce uh uh the the well the the gospel transformation that we see in people's lives um so well norval if the local leader plays such a key role in this uh then I think that the the right necessary next question is uh how do I reconcile this concept of the importance of a local leader and their impact but also the knowledge that a healthy church is ascending church um you know how do I how do I bring some some sense of of reconciliation to or or answer the question what's the difference between a church that does missions and a church that is ascending missions church how how do we understand some of that tension uh in the midst of it uh the gospel is um in in its essence centrifugal right okay jerusalem was at the center of the faith then judea samaria and then finally the the ends of the earth and uh and we christianity spread from jerusalem to uh you know to asia minor to europe to america that's that's how we became christians yeah yeah um for those who think that christianity isn't a is a western religion it's it's nothing but yeah uh it's an eastern religion that reached us uh in the west yeah so in in that sense um and i had this thought a minute ago it's um the local church the local leaders the local leadership and the local church is called in the great commission to go to the ends of the earth and i think it it's called to go and be local somewhere else you know the church mission is about us about a local christian or a local church or a local believer going to be local somewhere else well and i i think that's a a a key a key piece right uh a mission sending church uh is sending their people to do mission mm-hmm okay but a a a a a local empowering church is recognizing wait a second I'm empowering you all right I'm sending you to lead in a context not to just do a thing right because it's not just about the doing of a task right that's the importing of a solution it's about the the the sending of a person uh with vision with uh an ability to mobilize people in alignment with that vision an ability to uh overcome the obstacles that are inevitable in accomplishing a vision right it's it's it's it's somebody with uh with influence uh and and then their stewardship of that influence toward toward the kingdom uh and so I think I think it's this this kind of tension point of like hey I'm not doing a mission it's I'm I am being the church um and and that it's not a job yeah it's just who we are mission is who we are yeah it's our identity uh is because it's it's it's built into the gospel this this love your love god and love neighbor make disciples of all nations be my witnesses in Jerusalem Judea Samaria and the the ends of the earth it's built in it if it's built into our my life and your life as a believer yeah then going whether it's across the street or onto the others across the world is is just uh is just the fruit of of that gospel in me. I I think though the reality of so many people is is they've been kind of overmanaged by the leaders in in their life, right? Where it's not they've yet to take real ownership of those elements of their faith of those elements of their calling so that I don't actually have to go across the street.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

All I have to do is tell the person across the street that my church member because I'm I'm here to consume Christianity and so the most I do is is pay for somebody else to go you know plant another franchise.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

But we've got to see we've got to see and realize that that robs the individual of the dignity of the joy of the fulfillment that comes with being a part of the mission absolutely not just uh uh um observing it right um you know I I think how many people watch a sports match and think to themselves whether it's it's football American or or everybody else's football or not you watch the match and I think most people would say man I'd love to be in there. I'd maybe make a fool of myself but man you can watch and sit in the stands but the chance to be on the field and to be in the in the mix is a fun like that's a joy-filled thing and yet within the church we've done so many things to overmanage in a fear of people messing it up that we've we've robbed them of that dignity and joy that comes from participating in the great work that God's called us to and I think that's um man we just we we have truncated or or or or cut off at the knees people's growth uh and and maturing because we we want to either make it so many small steps or we want to maybe over control I don't I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah uh growth comes from doing growth and mission comes from doing mission and the only way for people to to grow is is to go out and do it. And and you're right if if we over control or if we treat if we treat people as consumers um then we're we're robbing them of the privilege of of growing by doing.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

So here's a question right we we've been talking for for a little bit the the folks who are are still with us here they're they're probably asking some questions I've got to imagine one of the questions is what's one thing we need to stop doing so that we can allow people the opportunity in their local context to lead to step forward uh to to gosh at the very least just be identified right some of the some of those local leaders kind of emerge what are what what is one thing you might recommend and then I'll offer one thing I might recommend that that a church or individuals within a body would could stop doing so that we can find those those local leaders.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Okay just look around yeah um I'm I'm I'm taking to uh Matthew nine and Jesus you know he is he is on a roll he is walking there's a crowd of people walking behind him and he stops and turns around and looks at the people because and and when when he did I don't know that it was the looking or if he already had it in his heart Matthew says that his heart was filled with compassion and it's that compassion that hurts um it's a gut feeling compassion according to the original Greek word. So when when he stopped and looked so if we stop and look and then the consequence is stop look look around and then and then pray. Pray for the Lord to send workers but the the most interesting thing about this text is that it doesn't stop there because the next thing that happens after they pray for the Lord of the harvest to send workers into the harvest is that Jesus sends them. He sends them out so they become the answer to their own prayer. So my my model is look around look around pray yeah and be ready to be the answer to your own prayer. God's going to give you vision to lead but the first thing is just stop and look around.

ILI Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I think that's such a good word is to stop to look to pray. I think uh that is an incredibly valuable way to see the leaders that are emerging in a in a given context and then to uh from that point right to then walk through mobilization and equipping and those kinds of things. I think if I did answer like if I look at it from the what do I need to stop doing in order for that to happen, I'd say stop stop trying to be the answer to every problem. Right. You know we talk about in in some of the things that that we teach here at ILI about the importance of delegation and the art of delegation and the importance of uh um mobilizing people to be a part of it uh because God's never called us to do things alone in isolation uh so uh I would say stop trying to be the answer to every problem um you already you know I think most leaders know they're not the answer to every problem but it's hard when you like to solve problems and a lot of leaders like to solve problems it's hard not to try and solve every problem uh and so instead uh uh uh be a be a sharer of the problem and watch as God begins to emerge um uh or God begins to reveal the emerging leaders among you um and and recognize the the good that comes from that and I think that that would be you know my my exaltation my encouragement to everybody who's listening is is there is so much power in the local leader whether that's local in in in my hometown in my neighborhood or local in a nation that I've never set foot and will never set foot um you know there was a uh a story recently I was shared with me a country that that was open to the gospel for many years uh and suddenly closed um and a church of you know some 1200 people uh was open on one Sunday and the next Sunday had chains on the doors and I was talking to the pastor and uh they just shared with me man it was a really hard day when we realized uh we had gotten a lot of people who could participate in things but didn't didn't have a lot of people who knew that they were the thing right that church is a church is is is not just an activity we'll participate in it's a uh it's a god it's a people it's a people yeah yeah it's a it's a it's a being um and um that's a hard thing to measure that's a hard thing to evaluate that's a hard thing to reproduce um being but it it is what the church is and I think the local expressions of that have better resilience they have better impact they've got longer uh uh uh um uh influence in a particular place and time uh and and there's that that's what we're looking for we want to see that that kingdom come that will be done uh and we want to see that transformation and so that that individual and the important thing to note is Norwell we're all local that's where we each play a part right exactly right um we all have a role to play in the midst of that and uh and it's a gift from God uh that we get to participate in his in his great commission uh across the street and across um uh across the family across the the porch across the living room um and and that that's mine that would be my encouragement um to you to people who are listening hey recognize you have a part to play in this um and you don't have to solve every problem in every place but we do have the opportunity to equip to mobilize to strengthen the local leader in every context and that brings transformation we're all local that's it somewhere somewhere or another we're another we're all local and listen if you are a global leader uh that's listening to this or uh you know you acknowledge hey I'm a local leader in my own context I want to encourage you the International Leadership Institute exists to equip to train to mobilize local leaders in their own context to reach their community their nation their peoples for the Great Commission for the gospel because we think that's where real transformation takes place. I think the best way to advance the gospel is a local leader just like you. You can find more resources at ILI team.org uh discover the eight core values of the most effective Christian leaders uh and other great tools that will help you grow in your life and faith. Uh thanks so much for joining us today on the History Makers Leadership Podcast.