{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":13.76,"endTime":16.953,"body":"Hey, writers, welcome back to Story"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":13.76,"endTime":16.953,"body":"Magic, the podcast that will help you write a"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":16.969,"endTime":18.265,"body":"book you're damn proud of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":18.385,"endTime":19.281,"body":"I'm Emily."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":19.433,"endTime":20.625,"body":"And I'm Rachel."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":20.785,"endTime":25.753,"body":"And today we are going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":20.785,"endTime":25.753,"body":"want versus need in character arcs."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":25.809,"endTime":28.233,"body":"So this came from a listener question."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":28.409,"endTime":31.241,"body":"If you are not aware, you can send questions"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":31.273,"endTime":36.429,"body":"to us at any time that we will answer on the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":31.273,"endTime":36.429,"body":"podcast, and you can email them to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":36.517,"endTime":43.213,"body":"podcastoldenmayediting.com with podcast"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":36.517,"endTime":43.213,"body":"question in the subject line, and then we will"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":43.309,"endTime":44.909,"body":"eventually get to it on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":45.037,"endTime":47.237,"body":"So this is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":47.381,"endTime":49.345,"body":"Yeah, it could take us a while."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":50.965,"endTime":51.797,"body":"Who knows?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":51.901,"endTime":53.265,"body":"Thank you for being patient."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":55.285,"endTime":57.935,"body":"But I love this question because this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":58.045,"endTime":61.179,"body":"This sort of crosses other people's craft"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":61.307,"endTime":66.171,"body":"teachings with our craft teachings, and I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":61.307,"endTime":66.171,"body":"think it's a really, really great question."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":66.243,"endTime":69.043,"body":"So I'm going to read the question, and then we"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":66.243,"endTime":69.043,"body":"can jump in."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":69.179,"endTime":71.627,"body":"So this is from Sarah, and Sarah asked."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":71.771,"endTime":74.435,"body":"I've heard of want first need in character"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":74.475,"endTime":74.843,"body":"arcs."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":74.899,"endTime":77.555,"body":"I understand the want is the external goal,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":77.595,"endTime":79.851,"body":"but I'm confused about what the need is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":79.923,"endTime":81.571,"body":"Is the need the internal goal?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":81.603,"endTime":84.455,"body":"Or is it the healed belief?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":81.603,"endTime":84.455,"body":"Or is it both together?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":85.575,"endTime":87.543,"body":"Awesome. Thanks, Sarah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":87.599,"endTime":92.715,"body":"This is a good question, and I think my first."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":93.975,"endTime":99.447,"body":"We're going to answer this with, like, how we"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":93.975,"endTime":99.447,"body":"interpret what other people teach the need as."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":99.511,"endTime":101.039,"body":"Because as we've said, there's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":101.127,"endTime":102.967,"body":"There's overlap between what we teach and what"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":102.991,"endTime":103.807,"body":"other people teach."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":103.911,"endTime":105.807,"body":"There's also, like, lots of craft terms that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":105.831,"endTime":107.655,"body":"get thrown around or used."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":107.695,"endTime":108.047,"body":"And I'm not."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":108.071,"endTime":109.207,"body":"I'm not saying that disruptively."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":109.271,"endTime":111.127,"body":"They get, like, used in other teachings."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":111.191,"endTime":113.429,"body":"There are lots of different terminal."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":113.517,"endTime":115.501,"body":"There's lots of different terminology out"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":115.533,"endTime":119.305,"body":"there, and some of them have very parallel"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":115.533,"endTime":119.305,"body":"meaning."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":119.845,"endTime":125.185,"body":"I do understand the need as being the internal"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":119.845,"endTime":125.185,"body":"goal, as being like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":126.005,"endTime":128.621,"body":"Yeah, I think it can be."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":128.693,"endTime":132.133,"body":"I think that is sort of up for debate, which"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":132.149,"endTime":133.717,"body":"is why I think this is such a good question."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":133.781,"endTime":134.149,"body":"I know."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":134.197,"endTime":134.589,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":134.677,"endTime":134.949,"body":"Because."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":134.997,"endTime":137.453,"body":"Okay, so maybe let's back up and let's define"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":137.549,"endTime":137.877,"body":"because."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":137.941,"endTime":138.213,"body":"Because."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":138.269,"endTime":138.509,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":138.557,"endTime":141.343,"body":"The question here is how does what you teach"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":141.519,"endTime":145.623,"body":"intersect with what other people teach?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":141.519,"endTime":145.623,"body":"And so first let's define what we teach, and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":145.639,"endTime":149.315,"body":"then we could kind of talk about how we've"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":145.639,"endTime":149.315,"body":"seen other people talk about these terms."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":150.495,"endTime":151.159,"body":"So first."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":151.207,"endTime":151.391,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":151.423,"endTime":152.431,"body":"The external goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":152.463,"endTime":154.559,"body":"A character's external goal is what they know"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":154.607,"endTime":156.551,"body":"they want in a story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":156.703,"endTime":161.247,"body":"So, you know, it's win the Hunger Games or I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":161.271,"endTime":162.447,"body":"like, any other."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":162.551,"endTime":163.927,"body":"What are the other stories?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":163.991,"endTime":166.535,"body":"Any other book we know, Save the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":166.575,"endTime":168.355,"body":"Damsel, you know, like, whatever."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":168.755,"endTime":170.175,"body":"Win Prom Queen."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":171.555,"endTime":172.035,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":172.115,"endTime":172.895,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":174.555,"endTime":177.555,"body":"And then the internal goal, as we teach it is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":177.595,"endTime":179.603,"body":"the thing that they actually want."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":179.659,"endTime":179.851,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":179.883,"endTime":188.851,"body":"It's the subconscious, usually deeper desire,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":179.883,"endTime":188.851,"body":"deeper human desire that a character has that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":188.883,"endTime":191.691,"body":"they think their external goal is going to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":188.883,"endTime":191.691,"body":"give them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":191.843,"endTime":192.323,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":192.419,"endTime":195.363,"body":"So Katniss wants to win the Hunger Games"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":195.459,"endTime":200.185,"body":"because she wants safety for her family or"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":195.459,"endTime":200.185,"body":"whatever it is that her internal goal is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":200.265,"endTime":202.097,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":200.265,"endTime":202.097,"body":"So the internal goal is usually some version"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":202.121,"endTime":206.105,"body":"of, like, love or respect or fulfillment or"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":202.121,"endTime":206.105,"body":"safety, belonging."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":206.265,"endTime":208.005,"body":"Belonging, things like that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":208.985,"endTime":210.577,"body":"It's something that the character is lacking"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":210.601,"endTime":216.449,"body":"at a deep human level that they are trying to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":210.601,"endTime":216.449,"body":"get by going after their external goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":216.577,"endTime":217.725,"body":"Yeah, so."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":218.465,"endTime":220.385,"body":"So then you're exactly right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":220.425,"endTime":221.121,"body":"The want."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":221.273,"endTime":224.033,"body":"The want in the want, need equation, which a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":224.049,"endTime":228.317,"body":"lot of other writing teachers teach, is the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":224.049,"endTime":228.317,"body":"external goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":228.341,"endTime":229.669,"body":"It's the thing they want in the story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":229.717,"endTime":230.985,"body":"It's pretty straightforward."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":231.405,"endTime":232.865,"body":"And I think the need."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":233.725,"endTime":236.677,"body":"I like internal, internal goal better as a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":236.701,"endTime":238.597,"body":"way, because they get at the same thing,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":236.701,"endTime":238.597,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":238.621,"endTime":242.061,"body":"There's this, like, external thing, journey"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":238.621,"endTime":242.061,"body":"that they're on and then this internal journey"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":242.093,"endTime":242.985,"body":"that they're on."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":243.325,"endTime":245.413,"body":"And so the want is the external, the need is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":245.429,"endTime":249.477,"body":"the internal, the external goal is the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":245.429,"endTime":249.477,"body":"external, and the internal goal is the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":249.501,"endTime":250.265,"body":"internal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":251.825,"endTime":255.633,"body":"But I think so, yes, I think it can be"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":255.809,"endTime":258.369,"body":"sometimes the internal goal, like you're"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":255.809,"endTime":258.369,"body":"saying, Rachel."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":258.457,"endTime":266.545,"body":"But I. I also understand it as like, the want"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":258.457,"endTime":266.545,"body":"is the thing they think they want, but the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":266.585,"endTime":270.369,"body":"need is the thing that they actually need."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":270.457,"endTime":272.681,"body":"And I feel like that can be a little different"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":272.713,"endTime":274.177,"body":"from an internal goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":274.321,"endTime":277.241,"body":"Like, I feel like it can overlap with, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":277.273,"endTime":279.325,"body":"the thing they need to learn."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":280.905,"endTime":283.405,"body":"And I'm struggling with, like, specifics."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":283.705,"endTime":288.521,"body":"Well, I mean, that's why this, that's"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":283.705,"endTime":288.521,"body":"why Sarah asked, is the need the internal goal"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":288.553,"endTime":290.577,"body":"or the healed belief?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":288.553,"endTime":290.577,"body":"Or is it both?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":290.761,"endTime":293.745,"body":"Yeah, and it probably depends on how you're."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":293.905,"endTime":296.113,"body":"You're setting this up, because another term"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":296.169,"endTime":300.001,"body":"that we have here is the healed belief, which"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":296.169,"endTime":300.001,"body":"is what we would call the story point."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":300.153,"endTime":301.001,"body":"So, and that's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":301.033,"endTime":302.657,"body":"That's not necessarily, like us, like Lisa"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":302.681,"endTime":303.753,"body":"Kron calls it the story point."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":303.809,"endTime":305.575,"body":"I don't want to, like, steal anybody's terms,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":305.665,"endTime":306.267,"body":"say their own."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":306.331,"endTime":309.363,"body":"But, like, the story point is the idea that,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":309.419,"endTime":312.659,"body":"that, that is the lesson that the person is"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":309.419,"endTime":312.659,"body":"learning."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":312.787,"endTime":314.315,"body":"They don't know that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":314.435,"endTime":317.387,"body":"So throughout their arc, they are letting go"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":317.411,"endTime":322.459,"body":"of the flawed belief, which is what we would"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":317.411,"endTime":322.459,"body":"call their internal obstacle belief."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":322.627,"endTime":325.371,"body":"They are letting go of how the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":325.443,"endTime":327.587,"body":"That belief has messed up their life so that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":327.611,"endTime":334.897,"body":"they can learn the lesson they need to learn"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":327.611,"endTime":334.897,"body":"the whole time, which would be the story"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":334.961,"endTime":336.765,"body":"point, the healed belief."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":338.465,"endTime":340.777,"body":"And you'll also see, like, the internal"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":340.841,"endTime":345.105,"body":"obstacle, which we have done episodes on"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":340.841,"endTime":345.105,"body":"extensively and talked about a lot."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":345.225,"endTime":349.445,"body":"Also called like the misbelief of or the lie."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":351.345,"endTime":353.257,"body":"There is other terminology out there, but it"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":353.281,"endTime":354.165,"body":"sounds like."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":354.865,"endTime":356.753,"body":"It sounds like there could be some overlap"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":356.809,"endTime":357.793,"body":"because if you're."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":357.889,"endTime":360.809,"body":"If you're thinking about it like the character"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":360.857,"endTime":364.233,"body":"doesn't know that this is what they really"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":360.857,"endTime":364.233,"body":"need."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":364.329,"endTime":370.553,"body":"And so it is the capital N need, the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":364.329,"endTime":370.553,"body":"terminology need, then in some interpretation,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":370.609,"endTime":372.281,"body":"that could be the story point lesson."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":372.393,"endTime":373.121,"body":"They."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":373.313,"endTime":376.153,"body":"That's what they really need is to"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":373.313,"endTime":376.153,"body":"look at the world differently."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":376.329,"endTime":378.445,"body":"Yeah. And I think that's what makes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":378.865,"endTime":380.905,"body":"I've always struggled with want verse need"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":380.985,"endTime":384.301,"body":"because of this ambi ambiguity."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":384.433,"endTime":386.989,"body":"Because I do think that what the want verse"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":387.037,"endTime":394.677,"body":"need tool is trying to do is trying to put all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":387.037,"endTime":394.677,"body":"those internal pieces into one term."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":394.821,"endTime":398.597,"body":"So I just pulled up our craft complex"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":394.821,"endTime":398.597,"body":"characters guide because I'm like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":398.621,"endTime":399.429,"body":"I need to show."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":399.477,"endTime":401.173,"body":"I need to like, use an example to show."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":401.229,"endTime":402.705,"body":"So let's use Laia."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":403.165,"endTime":405.813,"body":"So Laia in an Ember in the Ashes by Sabaa"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":405.829,"endTime":406.565,"body":"Tahir."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":406.725,"endTime":408.061,"body":"Her external goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":408.093,"endTime":414.585,"body":"So her want is to get the resistance, these"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":408.093,"endTime":414.585,"body":"other people to save her brother from prison."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":415.165,"endTime":416.277,"body":"He's been arrested."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":416.341,"endTime":417.949,"body":"She feels responsible for it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":417.997,"endTime":418.621,"body":"So she."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":418.733,"endTime":420.945,"body":"She's trying to get other people to do that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":421.565,"endTime":427.421,"body":"Her internal goal is to make right her failure"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":421.565,"endTime":427.421,"body":"of leaving her brother behind because she"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":427.453,"endTime":428.501,"body":"thinks that she was weak."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":428.573,"endTime":431.365,"body":"She thinks she's inherently weak and so she"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":431.405,"endTime":433.189,"body":"can't save him, couldn't save him by herself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":433.237,"endTime":434.997,"body":"So she needs to get other people to do it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":435.101,"endTime":439.567,"body":"So if I was thinking of Lia in a want verse"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":435.101,"endTime":439.567,"body":"need equation, I would say her want is to get"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":439.591,"endTime":440.727,"body":"other people to save her brother."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":440.791,"endTime":442.463,"body":"Her need is to learn that she can save her"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":442.479,"endTime":443.395,"body":"brother herself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":443.815,"endTime":445.263,"body":"And I think that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":445.439,"endTime":445.823,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":445.879,"endTime":447.671,"body":"That's not quite her internal goal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":447.783,"endTime":450.047,"body":"Her internal goal is to make right her"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":447.783,"endTime":450.047,"body":"failure."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":450.191,"endTime":456.135,"body":"Um, but her need is to, like, realize that she"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":450.191,"endTime":456.135,"body":"is the one who can do that, which is baked"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":456.175,"endTime":456.615,"body":"into."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":456.735,"endTime":457.015,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":457.055,"endTime":460.839,"body":"Her story point belief that her power lies in"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":457.055,"endTime":460.839,"body":"her own hands."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":460.927,"endTime":461.415,"body":"So it is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":461.455,"endTime":463.231,"body":"It's kind of like this internal goal and story"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":463.263,"endTime":464.695,"body":"point, like, mushed together."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":464.855,"endTime":465.635,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":466.195,"endTime":470.771,"body":"It's like the need is what they need to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":466.195,"endTime":470.771,"body":"learn about how they'll actually get their"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":470.803,"endTime":471.855,"body":"internal goal."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":473.075,"endTime":473.675,"body":"I don't."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":473.755,"endTime":475.251,"body":"It's cool."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":475.323,"endTime":476.235,"body":"I mean, it's not."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":476.315,"endTime":477.235,"body":"It's not speaking to me."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":477.275,"endTime":481.963,"body":"I can see why, like, there's a reason why we"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":477.275,"endTime":481.963,"body":"have these things teased apart."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":482.099,"endTime":482.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":482.467,"endTime":488.135,"body":"There's a reason why we think about it"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":482.467,"endTime":488.135,"body":"in a little different terms."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":488.515,"endTime":493.267,"body":"But I do think, like, whatever is going to"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":488.515,"endTime":493.267,"body":"make sense to you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":493.371,"endTime":493.959,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":494.107,"endTime":495.599,"body":"If that's what makes sense to you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":495.687,"endTime":496.355,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":496.735,"endTime":497.687,"body":"That's so cool."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":497.751,"endTime":501.391,"body":"And like, that's the whole point of making"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":497.751,"endTime":501.391,"body":"craft work for your brain."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":501.503,"endTime":509.255,"body":"Because the theory behind this is still the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":501.503,"endTime":509.255,"body":"same where you have a character who is trying"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":509.295,"endTime":510.903,"body":"to achieve a goal."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":511.039,"endTime":513.135,"body":"And that could be the external goal or the, or"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":513.175,"endTime":516.927,"body":"the want, right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":513.175,"endTime":516.927,"body":"Like you have a character doing something in a"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":516.951,"endTime":521.417,"body":"plot that is always going to be storytelling,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":516.951,"endTime":521.417,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":521.521,"endTime":525.689,"body":"Then you have like on, on the internal side,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":521.521,"endTime":525.689,"body":"on the inside of that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":525.737,"endTime":530.081,"body":"There are other motivators for why they want"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":525.737,"endTime":530.081,"body":"that goal, why they're trying to achieve that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":530.113,"endTime":530.593,"body":"goal."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":530.729,"endTime":534.105,"body":"Like that's, that's the theory is that they"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":534.185,"endTime":540.345,"body":"have a deeper, a deeper reasoning, a deeper"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":534.185,"endTime":540.345,"body":"motivation for why all this matters to them"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":540.385,"endTime":543.845,"body":"and what they hope to get out of it, why"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":540.385,"endTime":543.845,"body":"they're doing it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":545.285,"endTime":553.413,"body":"And they still need to change in order to get"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":545.285,"endTime":553.413,"body":"that meaning, like find, achieve that success"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":553.469,"endTime":557.605,"body":"that they're looking for and be like"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":553.469,"endTime":557.605,"body":"internally fulfilled."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":557.725,"endTime":566.661,"body":"To find the internal goal that, for Laia, that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":557.725,"endTime":566.661,"body":"forgiveness, that, that like, ability to say"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":566.693,"endTime":570.085,"body":"that she, she fixed it, right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":566.693,"endTime":570.085,"body":"Like she, she fixed it all."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":570.125,"endTime":572.357,"body":"She doesn't have to feel guilty, she doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":570.125,"endTime":572.357,"body":"have to feel bad, could."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":572.381,"endTime":573.021,"body":"Because she did it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":573.053,"endTime":573.719,"body":"Like she."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":573.877,"endTime":578.315,"body":"There's a lot of reasoning there, but she"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":573.877,"endTime":578.315,"body":"still has to learn something in order to"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":578.355,"endTime":579.995,"body":"achieve that and to find."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":580.155,"endTime":581.739,"body":"Yeah, she has to film it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":581.787,"endTime":584.179,"body":"And I think, right, baked into the want versus"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":584.227,"endTime":585.643,"body":"need is this idea of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":585.739,"endTime":587.211,"body":"And into our character tables, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":587.243,"endTime":591.163,"body":"Is this idea that they have to change before"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":587.243,"endTime":591.163,"body":"they can get the thing that they actually"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":591.219,"endTime":595.675,"body":"need, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":591.219,"endTime":595.675,"body":"The thing that the internal, like that there's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":595.715,"endTime":601.733,"body":"this idea that what they want isn't exactly"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":595.715,"endTime":601.733,"body":"what's going to get them, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":601.749,"endTime":604.477,"body":"they're going to change and they're going to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":601.749,"endTime":604.477,"body":"maybe have a different desire or they're going"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":604.501,"endTime":607.901,"body":"to find a different way to go about doing it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":604.501,"endTime":607.901,"body":"by the end of the story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":607.973,"endTime":610.509,"body":"And so, yeah, I think that's a really good"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":607.973,"endTime":610.509,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":610.677,"endTime":615.725,"body":"If you understand like, right, if external and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":610.677,"endTime":615.725,"body":"internal goal work for you, just use those."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":615.765,"endTime":619.589,"body":"You don't need to understand how want first"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":615.765,"endTime":619.589,"body":"need work, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":619.677,"endTime":621.773,"body":"If you already have a tool that works for you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":621.829,"endTime":624.117,"body":"If you're like, want for first need works so"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":624.141,"endTime":627.365,"body":"well for me, your six piece character table is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":624.141,"endTime":627.365,"body":"way too much."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":627.525,"endTime":630.357,"body":"That's fine, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":627.525,"endTime":630.357,"body":"I know that there are people who are like"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":630.381,"endTime":635.015,"body":"that, who like the simplicity of want versus"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":630.381,"endTime":635.015,"body":"need and don't need to break their character"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":635.055,"endTime":639.115,"body":"into six individual psychic psyche pieces,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":635.055,"endTime":639.115,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":639.415,"endTime":644.675,"body":"It's all about, like Rachel said, finding the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":639.415,"endTime":644.675,"body":"tools that click for you, that work for you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":646.015,"endTime":650.407,"body":"And like, beyond that, you don't, you don't"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":646.015,"endTime":650.407,"body":"need to fit your story into every structure"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":650.471,"endTime":651.079,"body":"that's out there."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":651.127,"endTime":651.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":651.671,"endTime":652.863,"body":"To make it valid."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":653.039,"endTime":653.647,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":653.711,"endTime":655.255,"body":"I mean, that's why at the heart of everything"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":655.295,"endTime":660.915,"body":"that we teach, we're still teaching, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":655.295,"endTime":660.915,"body":"understand the purpose this craft tool serves,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":661.215,"endTime":667.743,"body":"understand the theory behind character arcs,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":661.215,"endTime":667.743,"body":"and then take whatever terminology makes the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":667.759,"endTime":669.455,"body":"most sense to you and apply that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":669.535,"endTime":671.959,"body":"Or, like, figure out, maybe make up your own"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":672.007,"endTime":672.795,"body":"terminology."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":673.255,"endTime":674.967,"body":"You can do that if you want."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":675.031,"endTime":675.911,"body":"We did that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":676.063,"endTime":676.895,"body":"We did that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":676.975,"endTime":679.799,"body":"Like, it's okay to, like, try to make this"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":679.847,"endTime":682.279,"body":"make sense for you, but, like, the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":682.327,"endTime":684.819,"body":"The theory of arcs remain the same."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":685.007,"endTime":685.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":685.627,"endTime":686.295,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":686.995,"endTime":687.779,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":687.947,"endTime":689.771,"body":"Cool. Thanks for this question, Sarah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":689.843,"endTime":691.467,"body":"Yeah, this was a wonderful question."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":691.611,"endTime":694.803,"body":"If you are listening and you are like, I have"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":694.819,"endTime":702.531,"body":"a question too, and I want you to answer it,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":694.819,"endTime":702.531,"body":"email us@podcastoldenmayediting.com put"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":702.643,"endTime":707.175,"body":"podcast question in the subject line, and we"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":702.643,"endTime":707.175,"body":"will get to it one day."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":709.355,"endTime":711.131,"body":"No, but, like, we will get to it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":711.163,"endTime":711.667,"body":"Don't worry."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":711.771,"endTime":713.211,"body":"We will absolutely answer it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":713.243,"endTime":714.039,"body":"Because these are."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":714.187,"endTime":717.543,"body":"We've had a lot of awesome questions come in"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":714.187,"endTime":717.543,"body":"the inbox, and that's wonderful."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":717.719,"endTime":718.311,"body":"So thank you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":718.343,"endTime":720.111,"body":"If you have submitted a question, we see it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":720.143,"endTime":720.383,"body":"We're."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":720.439,"endTime":721.151,"body":"We're going to get to it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":721.183,"endTime":722.235,"body":"So thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":722.615,"endTime":723.199,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":723.287,"endTime":727.487,"body":"If you want to build a successful, fulfilling,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":723.287,"endTime":727.487,"body":"and sustainable writing life that works for"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":727.511,"endTime":729.511,"body":"you, you've got to get on our email list."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":729.623,"endTime":732.639,"body":"Sign up now to get our free email"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":729.623,"endTime":732.639,"body":"course, the Magic of Character Arcs."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":732.687,"endTime":736.303,"body":"After seven days of email magic, you'll have"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":732.687,"endTime":736.303,"body":"the power to keep your readers flipping pages"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":736.359,"endTime":737.327,"body":"all through the night."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":737.471,"endTime":738.463,"body":"Link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":738.519,"endTime":739.423,"body":"We'll see you there."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":739.559,"endTime":740.235,"body":"Boo. Thanks."}]}