{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":0.24,"endTime":14.6,"body":"Foreign. Hey, writers."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":14.6,"endTime":16.48,"body":"Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":16.48,"endTime":18.32,"body":"will help you write a book you're damn proud"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":16.48,"endTime":18.32,"body":"of."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":18.4,"endTime":19.28,"body":"I'm Rachel."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":19.36,"endTime":20.32,"body":"And I'm Emily."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":20.56,"endTime":25.04,"body":"And today we are talking about"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":20.56,"endTime":25.04,"body":"atmosphere and setting with a very special"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":25.12,"endTime":27.07,"body":"guest, Taya Verdone."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":27.23,"endTime":31.31,"body":"Welcome. Hi, Taya. Hi. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":27.23,"endTime":31.31,"body":"for having me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":31.79,"endTime":32.75,"body":"We're so excited."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":32.83,"endTime":33.39,"body":"We are."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":33.39,"endTime":34.35,"body":"We're so excited."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":34.91,"endTime":36.11,"body":"So I am a fan."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":36.59,"endTime":41.07,"body":"I think I've talked about your books on the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":36.59,"endTime":41.07,"body":"podcast before, but before I start just"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":41.07,"endTime":45.63,"body":"blabbing on and on, would you please tell us a"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":41.07,"endTime":45.63,"body":"little bit about you and what you do in the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":45.63,"endTime":46.43,"body":"books that you write?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":46.83,"endTime":47.23,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":48.03,"endTime":49.03,"body":"So I'm Taya."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":49.03,"endTime":49.71,"body":"I write."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":49.71,"endTime":51.95,"body":"Mm, modern gothic romance."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":53.95,"endTime":59.91,"body":"Usually there's, like, a lot of angst in"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":53.95,"endTime":59.91,"body":"mental health rep, and I always try to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":59.91,"endTime":62.99,"body":"incorporate my setting as, like, an additional"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":59.91,"endTime":62.99,"body":"character."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":63.55,"endTime":66.75,"body":"Yes. Which is why that's exactly what"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":63.55,"endTime":66.75,"body":"we want to talk about today."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":67.55,"endTime":68.99,"body":"And I read your."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":69.55,"endTime":74.39,"body":"Your book Never Leave, Never Lie last year,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":69.55,"endTime":74.39,"body":"and it was one of my favorite reads of the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":74.39,"endTime":74.83,"body":"whole year."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":75.39,"endTime":76.35,"body":"It was incredible."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":76.43,"endTime":77.71,"body":"So I highly recommend it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":77.71,"endTime":80.59,"body":"And we used it in our descriptions class, I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":77.71,"endTime":80.59,"body":"think,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":81.64,"endTime":86.68,"body":"because you do such a great job of weaving all"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":81.64,"endTime":86.68,"body":"these different parts together."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":87.48,"endTime":92.0,"body":"And we did want to talk a lot about setting an"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":87.48,"endTime":92.0,"body":"atmosphere today because it does feel so"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":92.0,"endTime":93.64,"body":"visceral in your novels."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":94.28,"endTime":100.08,"body":"And then I also feel the same way about"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":94.28,"endTime":100.08,"body":"Emily's books, too, where just the world in"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":100.08,"endTime":103.64,"body":"this setting is just so part of it, you know?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":104.28,"endTime":106.52,"body":"But what's really interesting is that,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":107.51,"endTime":112.23,"body":"yeah, you write contemporary and Emily writes"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":107.51,"endTime":112.23,"body":"fantasy, but it still is like, such a."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":112.71,"endTime":116.79,"body":"A vibe, you know, like, it's so important that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":112.71,"endTime":116.79,"body":"setting is included."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":118.55,"endTime":121.59,"body":"So before we jump into, like, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":118.55,"endTime":121.59,"body":"do you do to build that out?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":121.75,"endTime":125.67,"body":"Could you tell us a little bit about Gothic?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":121.75,"endTime":125.67,"body":"You know, why Gothic for you?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":125.67,"endTime":130.31,"body":"What leads you to writing about gothic and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":125.67,"endTime":130.31,"body":"that vibe and style?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":130.31,"endTime":133.03,"body":"And how do you feel like it comes to life in"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":130.31,"endTime":133.03,"body":"your books?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":134.86,"endTime":136.06,"body":"I guess by accident."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":136.22,"endTime":136.62,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":137.82,"endTime":138.98,"body":"I just kind of."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":138.98,"endTime":142.82,"body":"I'm a big, dark romance reader, and I've"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":142.82,"endTime":145.3,"body":"always loved, like, horror and gothic stuff."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":145.3,"endTime":146.06,"body":"And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":146.94,"endTime":150.38,"body":"Shirley Jackson was, like, a favorite author"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":146.94,"endTime":150.38,"body":"of mine and stuff,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":150.7,"endTime":153.66,"body":"but I started with just, like, basic"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":150.7,"endTime":153.66,"body":"contemporary romance."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":153.66,"endTime":159.24,"body":"And then when I started writing Alex Story,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":153.66,"endTime":159.24,"body":"Alec and Ian and Never Leave, Never Lie, I. I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":159.24,"endTime":161.32,"body":"thought it was going to be, like, a dark"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":159.24,"endTime":161.32,"body":"romance."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":161.32,"endTime":166.16,"body":"And then I kind of, while I was writing,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":161.32,"endTime":166.16,"body":"figured out who I was and how much I really"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":166.16,"endTime":168.04,"body":"love that gothic vibe."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":168.68,"endTime":169.16,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":169.32,"endTime":170.52,"body":"Yeah. It just."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":170.76,"endTime":173.88,"body":"How does it feel like, if you were to describe"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":173.88,"endTime":175.44,"body":"gothic to somebody who doesn't know?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":175.44,"endTime":175.64,"body":"What."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":175.64,"endTime":176.8,"body":"What do you feel like?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":175.64,"endTime":176.8,"body":"Are the Hallmarks."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":176.8,"endTime":178.32,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna, I was like, what is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":178.32,"endTime":179.96,"body":"I feel like it's one of those words we throw"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":179.96,"endTime":180.16,"body":"around."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":180.16,"endTime":180.4,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":180.4,"endTime":183.72,"body":"But like it's gothic and like it gives you a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":180.4,"endTime":183.72,"body":"feeling, a vibe."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":183.72,"endTime":185.32,"body":"But like, how do you define it?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":186.32,"endTime":191.48,"body":"Yeah, I read a bunch of articles"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":186.32,"endTime":191.48,"body":"when I was like trying to pitch my book and it"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":191.48,"endTime":193.36,"body":"seems like a lot of people feel that way."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":193.6,"endTime":195.88,"body":"But there are like some universal things that"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":195.88,"endTime":201.799,"body":"are often included, which is like the setting"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":195.88,"endTime":201.799,"body":"as being super atmospheric and kind of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":201.799,"endTime":202.88,"body":"claustrophobic."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":204.0,"endTime":208.16,"body":"There can be supernatural elements, but not"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":204.0,"endTime":208.16,"body":"necessarily."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":209.2,"endTime":214.46,"body":"There's often like kind of this rising dread"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":209.2,"endTime":214.46,"body":"that Chris."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":214.46,"endTime":216.54,"body":"And Chris and crescendo."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":216.62,"endTime":218.46,"body":"Oh my God, I can't say that word that,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":219.1,"endTime":220.78,"body":"that climaxes towards the end."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":220.78,"endTime":221.42,"body":"How about that?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":223.02,"endTime":223.82,"body":"Towards the end."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":224.62,"endTime":228.9,"body":"And I don't know if I mentioned the whole"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":224.62,"endTime":228.9,"body":"mental health aspect too."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":228.9,"endTime":233.66,"body":"A lot of times there's like this unreliable"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":228.9,"endTime":233.66,"body":"narrator or like deterioration of mental"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":233.82,"endTime":236.86,"body":"health and not knowing like what's real and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":233.82,"endTime":236.86,"body":"what isn't."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":237.47,"endTime":237.87,"body":"Mm,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":238.91,"endTime":239.39,"body":"yes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":239.79,"endTime":244.87,"body":"I love that distinction right there"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":239.79,"endTime":244.87,"body":"because I feel like that separates it a little"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":244.87,"endTime":246.19,"body":"bit from like suspense."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":246.51,"endTime":246.91,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":247.07,"endTime":249.75,"body":"Having the like, unreliability, this sense of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":249.75,"endTime":252.19,"body":"like, what's real, what's not, the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":249.75,"endTime":252.19,"body":"claustrophobia."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":252.19,"endTime":256.55,"body":"Like, I feel like that is just like slightly"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":252.19,"endTime":256.55,"body":"like there is suspense in gothic a lot of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":256.55,"endTime":257.19,"body":"times, I think."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":257.19,"endTime":259.87,"body":"But that doesn't necessarily, like, mean"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":257.19,"endTime":259.87,"body":"they're the same,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":260.27,"endTime":261.35,"body":"you know, they're the same thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":261.35,"endTime":263.94,"body":"Gothic has those unique aspects."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":263.94,"endTime":264.54,"body":"That's cool."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":265.18,"endTime":266.46,"body":"Yes, I totally agree."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":266.54,"endTime":267.1,"body":"You can."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":267.18,"endTime":271.7,"body":"Even if it's like historical gothic, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":267.18,"endTime":271.7,"body":"like the traditional kind, I think you can"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":271.7,"endTime":274.86,"body":"definitely differentiate it between other"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":271.7,"endTime":274.86,"body":"genres."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":275.1,"endTime":275.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":276.06,"endTime":278.46,"body":"It's interesting to me how some,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":278.86,"endTime":283.22,"body":"some of what you just, just described with"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":278.86,"endTime":283.22,"body":"like unreliable narrator has so much to do"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":283.22,"endTime":285.38,"body":"with character on top."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":285.38,"endTime":287.38,"body":"Like character and setting just become this"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":287.38,"endTime":289.69,"body":"very tight knit thing."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":290.49,"endTime":297.53,"body":"So how did you feel with like Alec, who is"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":290.49,"endTime":297.53,"body":"that person and, and bringing that to life"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":297.53,"endTime":300.41,"body":"through him?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":297.53,"endTime":300.41,"body":"I mean, I guess, like, did you develop these"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":300.41,"endTime":302.13,"body":"two things in conjunction with one another?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":302.13,"endTime":303.13,"body":"Did just feel like."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":303.61,"endTime":303.93,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":303.93,"endTime":305.45,"body":"Alec is a very gothic person."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":308.01,"endTime":309.85,"body":"Yeah. Very sulky."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":310.89,"endTime":311.29,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":311.77,"endTime":315.13,"body":"I think I kind of wrote them in tandem."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":315.83,"endTime":321.99,"body":"I liked to use the house as kind of a metaphor"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":315.83,"endTime":321.99,"body":"for Alex's own growth too."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":322.07,"endTime":322.63,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":323.59,"endTime":328.11,"body":"Kind of like slowly transforming into"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":323.59,"endTime":328.11,"body":"something whole again."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":328.11,"endTime":332.55,"body":"When we started all broken and there's all"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":328.11,"endTime":332.55,"body":"these, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":332.95,"endTime":334.79,"body":"hidden corners and."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":336.23,"endTime":338.11,"body":"Just because they're renovating a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":336.23,"endTime":338.11,"body":"house."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":338.11,"endTime":338.35,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":338.35,"endTime":338.67,"body":"I've."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":338.67,"endTime":340.31,"body":"I've only read snippets of the book."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":340.71,"endTime":341.95,"body":"The ones that I've sent her to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":341.95,"endTime":343.35,"body":"Be like, it's on my tbr."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":343.67,"endTime":346.11,"body":"But but yeah, can you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":346.11,"endTime":347.67,"body":"Maybe for folks who haven't, you know, who"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":347.67,"endTime":352.27,"body":"aren't familiar with the story, you could just"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":347.67,"endTime":352.27,"body":"give us a teeny like about it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":352.83,"endTime":353.63,"body":"Great point."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":353.71,"endTime":355.51,"body":"Okay, so never leave, never lie."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":355.51,"endTime":356.91,"body":"It's about Alec and Ian."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":356.91,"endTime":359.87,"body":"Alec is a pianist with synesthesia,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":360.75,"endTime":365.39,"body":"and he has all these secrets and lies."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":365.39,"endTime":369.35,"body":"And he's also with this man, Ian, who's a"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":369.35,"endTime":373.56,"body":"historical building rehabilitator,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":374.04,"endTime":375.08,"body":"sort of contractor."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":375.48,"endTime":380.2,"body":"And Ian is a total, like, I think I can fix"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":375.48,"endTime":380.2,"body":"him if I just keep trying."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":380.52,"endTime":381.24,"body":"Like, the house."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":382.2,"endTime":383.24,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":383.8,"endTime":388.2,"body":"Part of their business is to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":383.8,"endTime":388.2,"body":"kind of buy up these properties and then"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":389.56,"endTime":392.52,"body":"restore them to their former glory and then"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":389.56,"endTime":392.52,"body":"resell them."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":393.0,"endTime":396.12,"body":"And then Alec kind of finds this forever home."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":396.28,"endTime":398.16,"body":"Except he hasn't shared that with Ian because"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":398.16,"endTime":399.16,"body":"he doesn't share very much,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":399.73,"endTime":400.21,"body":"like, information."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":400.29,"endTime":400.93,"body":"That's true."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":401.25,"endTime":405.29,"body":"And they're working on this house that starts"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":401.25,"endTime":405.29,"body":"really crumbling."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":405.29,"endTime":407.97,"body":"It's like a Victorian manor situation."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":408.45,"endTime":408.93,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":409.41,"endTime":410.05,"body":"gotcha."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":410.29,"endTime":410.77,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":410.85,"endTime":412.13,"body":"And all this."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":412.85,"endTime":413.41,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":413.73,"endTime":414.57,"body":"I was just gonna say."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":414.57,"endTime":415.01,"body":"So the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":415.17,"endTime":419.73,"body":"So as you were saying before I interrupted"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":415.17,"endTime":419.73,"body":"you, like, the house is a sort of a metaphor"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":419.73,"endTime":422.85,"body":"for what Alec is going through in terms of,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":419.73,"endTime":422.85,"body":"like, it's got."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":422.85,"endTime":426.57,"body":"You were saying that it has hidden corners and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":422.85,"endTime":426.57,"body":"secrets and things like that, and that kind of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":426.57,"endTime":427.29,"body":"mirrors him."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":427.29,"endTime":428.05,"body":"That's really cool."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":428.91,"endTime":429.71,"body":"Oh, thanks."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":429.87,"endTime":433.51,"body":"Yeah, I. I took, like, some notes about it, if"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":433.51,"endTime":437.15,"body":"I can find them, but just with, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":437.63,"endTime":442.59,"body":"how Alec kind of is the one to stumble upon"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":437.63,"endTime":442.59,"body":"the house and then is so, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":443.47,"endTime":443.87,"body":"in."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":444.19,"endTime":445.75,"body":"Enchanted by it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":445.75,"endTime":447.47,"body":"It's like there's this immediate connection,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":447.47,"endTime":451.31,"body":"almost like he does himself in it and like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":447.47,"endTime":451.31,"body":"with this, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":451.63,"endTime":457.11,"body":"fog gray paint that's, like, peeling, and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":451.63,"endTime":457.11,"body":"there's this wisteria that's, like, totally"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":457.11,"endTime":461.51,"body":"overgrown and climbing up to, like, a tall"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":457.11,"endTime":461.51,"body":"tower and stuff."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":462.47,"endTime":463.91,"body":"That's kind of like where I started,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":464.23,"endTime":464.91,"body":"I guess."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":464.91,"endTime":465.83,"body":"And yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":466.23,"endTime":469.99,"body":"yeah, I was gonna mention the wisteria because"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":466.23,"endTime":469.99,"body":"it's also such a big."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":470.15,"endTime":474.47,"body":"There's different pieces of the house, and the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":470.15,"endTime":474.47,"body":"wisteria being one of them, that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":475.11,"endTime":480.15,"body":"That change and undergo this trauma as Alec"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":475.11,"endTime":480.15,"body":"does."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":480.87,"endTime":481.43,"body":"And it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":481.69,"endTime":481.93,"body":"It."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":482.09,"endTime":483.73,"body":"What?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":482.09,"endTime":483.73,"body":"I loved the reason why we."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":483.73,"endTime":484.49,"body":"We picked."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":484.65,"endTime":485.77,"body":"I don't know if you know, but the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":485.77,"endTime":491.77,"body":"The excerpt that we picked for our class was"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":485.77,"endTime":491.77,"body":"when Alec falls and rips the wisteria down."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":491.77,"endTime":491.97,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":491.97,"endTime":494.09,"body":"And it's just like the description of how that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":494.09,"endTime":496.25,"body":"action happens is so visceral,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":496.73,"endTime":501.13,"body":"but it's like the house itself, the more Alec"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":496.73,"endTime":501.13,"body":"crumbles, like, the more the house is."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":501.45,"endTime":502.77,"body":"Is falling apart too."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":502.77,"endTime":508.09,"body":"And you've done such a great job of"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":502.77,"endTime":508.09,"body":"weaving those two things together."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":508.74,"endTime":508.98,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":509.62,"endTime":514.18,"body":"it felt very considered, you know, like, very"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":509.62,"endTime":514.18,"body":"thoughtful of, like, oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":514.74,"endTime":520.46,"body":"This setting is like, the house is what binds"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":514.74,"endTime":520.46,"body":"them together when they're, like, ready to"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":520.46,"endTime":523.46,"body":"tear each other apart, but they can't because"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":520.46,"endTime":523.46,"body":"they have the house."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":523.94,"endTime":524.819,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":524.819,"endTime":525.78,"body":"Because they definitely."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":526.1,"endTime":529.1,"body":"At least one of them definitely wants to, you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":526.1,"endTime":529.1,"body":"know, bounce."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":529.1,"endTime":531.54,"body":"But the house is there to hold them together."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":531.54,"endTime":532.26,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":532.74,"endTime":539.91,"body":"And, yeah, I do feel like I'm very intentional"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":532.74,"endTime":539.91,"body":"when I'm writing to kind of try to connect the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":539.91,"endTime":541.19,"body":"setting in the mood."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":541.19,"endTime":542.63,"body":"I kind of think, you know, how you learn"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":542.63,"endTime":550.43,"body":"about, like, character voice and how you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":542.63,"endTime":550.43,"body":"should choose words very wisely to make each"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":550.51,"endTime":554.91,"body":"individual sound authentic and real."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":554.99,"endTime":555.63,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":555.95,"endTime":562.71,"body":"like, for example, Alec is a musician, and he"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":555.95,"endTime":562.71,"body":"thinks about things in, like, a lot of musical"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":562.71,"endTime":563.87,"body":"sort of metaphors."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":564.55,"endTime":564.87,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":565.51,"endTime":571.83,"body":"and for the house in the forest surrounding"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":565.51,"endTime":571.83,"body":"it, I was kind of able to kind of build in"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":572.15,"endTime":573.67,"body":"that whole sort of,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":574.39,"endTime":581.75,"body":"like, claustrophobia and just this sense of,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":574.39,"endTime":581.75,"body":"like, being sentient almost and alive."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":581.75,"endTime":584.47,"body":"And I try to do that with all the ones I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":585.11,"endTime":586.15,"body":"All the settings I write."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":586.15,"endTime":591.27,"body":"Yeah, Yeah, I. I think, like, bringing"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":586.15,"endTime":591.27,"body":"it back to character is really important and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":591.27,"endTime":592.86,"body":"how the characters,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":593.18,"endTime":595.58,"body":"like, live their lives and look through them."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":595.98,"endTime":599.38,"body":"And I think with, like, world building and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":595.98,"endTime":599.38,"body":"setting building in general, there's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":599.38,"endTime":602.46,"body":"There's usually two pieces, which is the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":599.38,"endTime":602.46,"body":"building itself."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":602.62,"endTime":606.06,"body":"I mean, like, you have to play, like, planning"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":602.62,"endTime":606.06,"body":"that out or creating it, whatever,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":606.46,"endTime":609.02,"body":"and then bringing it to life on the page."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":609.18,"endTime":611.7,"body":"And those are, like, two very different skill"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":611.7,"endTime":612.22,"body":"sets."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":613.02,"endTime":613.66,"body":"How do you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":613.98,"endTime":618.06,"body":"Like, how do you approach world building and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":613.98,"endTime":618.06,"body":"then showing it, you know, on the page?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":618.77,"endTime":619.33,"body":"Good question."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":619.33,"endTime":621.73,"body":"Yeah, I'm glad you asked that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":621.73,"endTime":622.29,"body":"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":622.61,"endTime":627.81,"body":"so I do a ton of research right now for my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":622.61,"endTime":627.81,"body":"current work in progress."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":627.81,"endTime":630.37,"body":"I literally have, like, 700 pins on my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":627.81,"endTime":630.37,"body":"Pinterest."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":630.37,"endTime":633.93,"body":"It's, like, really never, never lie."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":633.93,"endTime":635.33,"body":"It's not quite so intense."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":635.49,"endTime":641.13,"body":"But I basically research locations sometimes"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":635.49,"endTime":641.13,"body":"it's like, actually, like, a real estate"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":641.13,"endTime":641.73,"body":"listing."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":642.13,"endTime":646.71,"body":"I do a lot of things on Pinterest to find more"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":642.13,"endTime":646.71,"body":"details about, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":647.11,"endTime":650.07,"body":"the interior, a lot of times, exterior, too."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":650.07,"endTime":653.51,"body":"But, like, if I have a very specific doorknob,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":653.51,"endTime":653.83,"body":"which."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":653.83,"endTime":654.67,"body":"That's another thing."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":654.67,"endTime":659.95,"body":"I don't know if it will come up, but I feel"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":654.67,"endTime":659.95,"body":"like making the setting feel real is by being"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":659.95,"endTime":665.03,"body":"specific and using really specific details and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":659.95,"endTime":665.03,"body":"without making it boring,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":666.31,"endTime":668.79,"body":"you know, And I totally lost my train of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":666.31,"endTime":668.79,"body":"thought."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":668.79,"endTime":672.95,"body":"So what was the original question before that?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":673.11,"endTime":676.31,"body":"Because it's like, you have to build"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":673.11,"endTime":676.31,"body":"it, but then you also have to bring it to life"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":676.72,"endTime":677.36,"body":"on the page."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":678.08,"endTime":680.76,"body":"So how did you approach both of those things"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":678.08,"endTime":680.76,"body":"where you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":680.76,"endTime":682.84,"body":"You're built you're looking at real estate"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":680.76,"endTime":682.84,"body":"listings, right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":682.84,"endTime":683.6,"body":"To get ideas."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":683.6,"endTime":685.96,"body":"Then you also have to show it, which is its"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":685.96,"endTime":687.44,"body":"own technique."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":687.84,"endTime":689.92,"body":"Okay, thank you for jogging my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":687.84,"endTime":689.92,"body":"memory."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":689.92,"endTime":691.04,"body":"I have adhd."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":691.28,"endTime":691.68,"body":"Same."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":695.04,"endTime":696.96,"body":"Yeah, so I do all this research."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":696.96,"endTime":699.16,"body":"I also do, like, antique listings."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":699.16,"endTime":703.18,"body":"I'm trying to think of things that might help"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":699.16,"endTime":703.18,"body":"other authors, like think outside side of the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":703.18,"endTime":703.54,"body":"box."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":704.26,"endTime":704.9,"body":"Alec."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":705.22,"endTime":706.9,"body":"Pianos are really important to him."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":706.9,"endTime":709.06,"body":"So I actually looked through, like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":709.06,"endTime":714.22,"body":"know, dozens of piano listings, like really"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":709.06,"endTime":714.22,"body":"priceless, restored ones, to kind of figure"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":714.22,"endTime":714.94,"body":"out what I wanted."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":714.94,"endTime":720.86,"body":"And I also try to blend things together so"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":714.94,"endTime":720.86,"body":"that makes it unique to just pull what you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":720.86,"endTime":724.26,"body":"want, which is really kind of fun to make your"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":720.86,"endTime":724.26,"body":"own thing, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":724.9,"endTime":730.43,"body":"and then to put it onto the page specifically"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":724.9,"endTime":730.43,"body":"from those notes."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":730.67,"endTime":731.95,"body":"I don't know if I like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":732.35,"endTime":733.27,"body":"actively do that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":733.27,"endTime":736.27,"body":"I just have these images in my mind and I free"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":736.27,"endTime":739.07,"body":"write, you know, and then I kind of."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":739.55,"endTime":740.83,"body":"As my writing process,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":741.15,"endTime":745.31,"body":"I will often start with more of a skeleton for"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":741.15,"endTime":745.31,"body":"each chapter, description wise."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":745.31,"endTime":750.43,"body":"And then I definitely go back in repeated"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":745.31,"endTime":750.43,"body":"rounds and keep layering and layering details."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":750.91,"endTime":755.44,"body":"While you also need to sometimes chop them out"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":750.91,"endTime":755.44,"body":"because nobody wants to read about something."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":755.91,"endTime":758.63,"body":"I don't know, piano restoration for like, five"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":755.91,"endTime":758.63,"body":"pages,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":759.35,"endTime":760.23,"body":"I would love that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":760.31,"endTime":761.67,"body":"But I also agree with you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":761.67,"endTime":763.79,"body":"I. I like, really connected with that part of"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":763.79,"endTime":766.31,"body":"Alec because I've been playing piano since I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":763.79,"endTime":766.31,"body":"was a little girl."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":766.47,"endTime":767.35,"body":"So having him,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":768.63,"endTime":771.19,"body":"as you can see, I really, like, really loved"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":768.63,"endTime":771.19,"body":"this book."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":771.19,"endTime":774.71,"body":"But yeah, it was, it was very,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":775.03,"endTime":775.43,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":776.15,"endTime":781.83,"body":"special or thoughtful to see him think in"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":776.15,"endTime":781.83,"body":"musical terms, which I completely understood,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":782.3,"endTime":787.14,"body":"and then feel so grounded in him of, like, he"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":782.3,"endTime":787.14,"body":"has, you know, his tunnel vision, but still we"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":787.14,"endTime":789.18,"body":"get all these little specific details."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":789.74,"endTime":791.7,"body":"Cause it really is like, what's relevant."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":791.7,"endTime":793.5,"body":"You know, you can have the whole house, but"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":793.5,"endTime":798.299,"body":"what's relevant in the moment to Alec is"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":793.5,"endTime":798.299,"body":"bringing it out."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":798.299,"endTime":800.62,"body":"And like, that's how you're showing it through"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":798.299,"endTime":800.62,"body":"him."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":800.78,"endTime":802.58,"body":"Is what?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":800.78,"endTime":802.58,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":802.58,"endTime":803.54,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":802.58,"endTime":803.54,"body":"Why this?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":803.54,"endTime":804.46,"body":"Why right now?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":805.18,"endTime":811.45,"body":"Okay, so my question is, you describe"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":805.18,"endTime":811.45,"body":"how you have like 700 Pinterest, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":811.45,"endTime":815.81,"body":"articles and images and things, and you do all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":811.45,"endTime":815.81,"body":"these, all this research on types of houses,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":815.81,"endTime":817.09,"body":"what interiors could look like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":817.25,"endTime":822.21,"body":"How do you decide which of those details and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":817.25,"endTime":822.21,"body":"inspirations to actually pull from?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":822.21,"endTime":826.65,"body":"Like, are you pulling the things that you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":822.21,"endTime":826.65,"body":"think are going to have meaning to the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":826.65,"endTime":829.17,"body":"characters in some way, or just like the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":826.65,"endTime":829.17,"body":"things that look cool?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":829.49,"endTime":831.73,"body":"Like, how do you choose which piano?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":829.49,"endTime":831.73,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":832.85,"endTime":836.69,"body":"Yeah. So for the piano itself,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":832.85,"endTime":836.69,"body":"that one's not as interesting."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":836.69,"endTime":838.13,"body":"It's just like I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":838.51,"endTime":842.51,"body":"I tried to pick a Victorian era one that"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":838.51,"endTime":842.51,"body":"seemed, you know, cool."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":844.03,"endTime":845.75,"body":"That had, like, an Alec vibe."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":845.75,"endTime":846.43,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":848.27,"endTime":849.59,"body":"Hey, vibes are vibes."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":849.59,"endTime":850.11,"body":"They work."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":851.47,"endTime":858.35,"body":"Yeah, but I try to include"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":851.47,"endTime":858.35,"body":"things really purposefully to build on the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":858.35,"endTime":860.75,"body":"story or, like, the mood."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":860.75,"endTime":862.99,"body":"So a lot of times it'll be things like that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":862.99,"endTime":863.31,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":864.44,"endTime":869.8,"body":"if I'm thinking, like, on a more exterior"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":864.44,"endTime":869.8,"body":"setting kind of scale, like, I'll try to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":869.88,"endTime":875.36,"body":"include parts about the forest that build that"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":869.88,"endTime":875.36,"body":"claustrophobia or the sense of dread, or,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":875.36,"endTime":877.32,"body":"like, there's a line where the trees,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":877.72,"endTime":878.12,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":878.44,"endTime":879.32,"body":"are too still."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":879.32,"endTime":881.2,"body":"Like, they're holding their breath, and that"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":881.2,"endTime":882.44,"body":"kind of, like, weaves in."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":882.52,"endTime":884.68,"body":"So I feel like a lot of times it's that or,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":884.68,"endTime":886.76,"body":"like, definitely a lot of symbolism."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":886.76,"endTime":891.6,"body":"Like, I have a part in the book where there's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":886.76,"endTime":891.6,"body":"a nurse log, which is, like, a tree that's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":891.6,"endTime":892.54,"body":"fallen on its side."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":892.77,"endTime":894.77,"body":"Side, and the roots are, like, pulled out."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":895.33,"endTime":899.69,"body":"And then you have all these new baby trees"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":895.33,"endTime":899.69,"body":"growing from that log."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":899.69,"endTime":901.01,"body":"That's why it's called nurse log."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":901.41,"endTime":906.89,"body":"And that was, like, a symbolic thing about"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":901.41,"endTime":906.89,"body":"kind of what happened to Alec with someone"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":906.89,"endTime":912.85,"body":"looking out for him and, like, that person's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":906.89,"endTime":912.85,"body":"sacrifice that they made for him does that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":912.85,"endTime":913.73,"body":"That's really cool."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":913.89,"endTime":915.33,"body":"Yeah, no, that's really cool."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":916.77,"endTime":920.41,"body":"I love it because it sounds like you pack all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":916.77,"endTime":920.41,"body":"kinds of meaning into the pieces of the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":920.41,"endTime":921.01,"body":"setting and."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":921.01,"endTime":921.33,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":922.21,"endTime":924.37,"body":"And stuff, and that meaning is coming from,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":924.69,"endTime":926.45,"body":"you know, what the character is going through."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":926.45,"endTime":928.69,"body":"So I guess my next question is, like, what is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":928.69,"endTime":932.09,"body":"your process?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":928.69,"endTime":932.09,"body":"Do you kind of know what the character's arc"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":932.09,"endTime":935.53,"body":"is going to be and, like, what that meaning is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":932.09,"endTime":935.53,"body":"going to be before you start drafting?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":935.53,"endTime":938.61,"body":"And so you're building the world intentionally"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":935.53,"endTime":938.61,"body":"around that, or are you, like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":938.93,"endTime":941.13,"body":"Are you a pants?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":938.93,"endTime":941.13,"body":"Or, like, Rachel, where you just kind of,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":941.13,"endTime":945.13,"body":"like, feel it out and it comes together, and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":941.13,"endTime":945.13,"body":"then, you know, you revise it to be more"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":945.13,"endTime":945.89,"body":"intentional."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":946.13,"endTime":946.93,"body":"Like, what's your."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":946.93,"endTime":948.07,"body":"How. How do you approach that?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":948.79,"endTime":951.35,"body":"I'm a total plant, sir."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":953.19,"endTime":953.75,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":953.83,"endTime":954.63,"body":"I almost."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":955.27,"endTime":957.75,"body":"My process seems pretty similar every time."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":957.83,"endTime":959.87,"body":"I'll start by, like, just writing the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":959.87,"endTime":962.47,"body":"character, free writing, just to get to know"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":959.87,"endTime":962.47,"body":"them a little bit."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":962.71,"endTime":970.15,"body":"And then I either already have the idea of the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":962.71,"endTime":970.15,"body":"story in my head, or I kind of figure that out"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":970.15,"endTime":971.67,"body":"after getting to know the character."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":971.83,"endTime":973.83,"body":"And I don't spend too much time on that part."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":974.3,"endTime":980.62,"body":"And then I let myself have the freedom to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":974.3,"endTime":980.62,"body":"change things and go down rabbit holes that"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":980.62,"endTime":981.02,"body":"often."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":981.1,"endTime":983.1,"body":"It's really cool how that's where writing"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":983.1,"endTime":983.82,"body":"feels magical."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":983.82,"endTime":986.5,"body":"Sometimes when you are just letting the words"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":986.5,"endTime":990.099,"body":"flow and you come up with something, like, way"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":986.5,"endTime":990.099,"body":"cooler and you don't even feel like you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":990.099,"endTime":990.74,"body":"actively did it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":990.74,"endTime":994.06,"body":"Like it genuinely was the character and, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":990.74,"endTime":994.06,"body":"the story unfolding."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":995.1,"endTime":1002.83,"body":"So that's usually how I work with, like, you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":995.1,"endTime":1002.83,"body":"know, I know exactly, like, for both the ones"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1002.83,"endTime":1005.99,"body":"I'm working, this never leave, never lie and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1002.83,"endTime":1005.99,"body":"what death forgets."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1005.99,"endTime":1010.43,"body":"I know the whole story, how it's going to end,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1005.99,"endTime":1010.43,"body":"but in between, there's wiggle room."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1010.59,"endTime":1011.51,"body":"A lot of it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1011.51,"endTime":1012.67,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1014.75,"endTime":1015.87,"body":"When I'm doing,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1016.43,"endTime":1020.75,"body":"like, my descriptions and setting are, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1016.43,"endTime":1020.75,"body":"my least favorite thing."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1020.91,"endTime":1022.43,"body":"Just because they're never, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1022.75,"endTime":1024.27,"body":"I just always forget about them."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1024.43,"endTime":1026.11,"body":"So it's a big part of my."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1026.35,"endTime":1026.87,"body":"I don't."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1026.87,"endTime":1027.67,"body":"I don't care about it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1027.67,"endTime":1030.07,"body":"I just care about my characters talking and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1027.67,"endTime":1030.07,"body":"fighting with each other."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1030.07,"endTime":1031.75,"body":"That's basically it anyway."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1032.63,"endTime":1033.67,"body":"Not that I don't care about."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1033.67,"endTime":1035.43,"body":"It's not the first thing that's on my mind."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1035.43,"endTime":1035.95,"body":"Dialogue."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1035.95,"endTime":1037.43,"body":"And we talk about this on the podcast, so"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1037.43,"endTime":1038.23,"body":"listeners will know."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1038.23,"endTime":1038.47,"body":"But."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1038.47,"endTime":1039.27,"body":"So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1040.31,"endTime":1045.31,"body":"I normally just do dialogue first, and setting"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1040.31,"endTime":1045.31,"body":"is, like, one of the last things that I do."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1045.31,"endTime":1050.03,"body":"But I have to have, like, I'm planning a"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1045.31,"endTime":1050.03,"body":"revision right now, and every single scene, I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1050.03,"endTime":1053.51,"body":"think I have a revision note that's like, you"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1050.03,"endTime":1053.51,"body":"have to describe the setting."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1053.51,"endTime":1054.95,"body":"Like, where are they?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1055.51,"endTime":1058.55,"body":"What's going on?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1055.51,"endTime":1058.55,"body":"And then I'm like, okay, I'll do that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1059.0,"endTime":1060.36,"body":"You know, I'll do that later."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1061.64,"endTime":1062.44,"body":"When you're."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1062.76,"endTime":1065.48,"body":"When you're planting and when you're doing"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1062.76,"endTime":1065.48,"body":"this, you have."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1065.48,"endTime":1070.6,"body":"We've talked about how you've built things and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1065.48,"endTime":1070.6,"body":"brought it to life, but do you, like, go"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1070.6,"endTime":1074.56,"body":"through every scene when you're writing it and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1070.6,"endTime":1074.56,"body":"you're like, okay, this is the vibe."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1074.56,"endTime":1075.88,"body":"I need to grow some dread."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1076.04,"endTime":1077.2,"body":"So how am I going to do that?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1077.2,"endTime":1080.92,"body":"Or are you, like, is this part of a revisions"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1077.2,"endTime":1080.92,"body":"process for you as well?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1081.56,"endTime":1082.84,"body":"Are you thinking, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1083.16,"endTime":1083.84,"body":"okay, the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1083.84,"endTime":1085.72,"body":"The atmosphere of this scene, we're outside,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1085.72,"endTime":1088.0,"body":"we're in front of the wisteria, the trees are"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1085.72,"endTime":1088.0,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1088.0,"endTime":1089.16,"body":"Here's how it's going to look."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1089.24,"endTime":1092.18,"body":"Is that, like, really top of mind for you?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1092.74,"endTime":1093.74,"body":"I do think it is."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1093.74,"endTime":1095.38,"body":"While I'm writing, I. It's easier for me to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1095.38,"endTime":1097.3,"body":"use what death forgets as an example,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1097.7,"endTime":1099.46,"body":"like, actually in it right now."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1099.54,"endTime":1101.94,"body":"But I do very much try to,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1103.54,"endTime":1107.94,"body":"as I'm writing, include that for the mood, for"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1103.54,"endTime":1107.94,"body":"the story,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1108.26,"endTime":1110.02,"body":"for increasing the tension."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1111.22,"endTime":1114.74,"body":"And sometimes, like, for Alec,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1115.3,"endTime":1119.99,"body":"sometimes I would use, like, I would submit,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1115.3,"endTime":1119.99,"body":"subvert the expectation of, like, for example,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1120.15,"endTime":1124.47,"body":"the weather being, like, really cheerful when"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1120.15,"endTime":1124.47,"body":"actually something horrible had happened."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1125.19,"endTime":1129.15,"body":"You know, So I do do that actively."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1129.15,"endTime":1130.23,"body":"But then the more."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1130.71,"endTime":1134.95,"body":"The smaller details, like, if I Do have"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1130.71,"endTime":1134.95,"body":"symbolism for, like, a doorknob."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1134.95,"endTime":1137.31,"body":"Because that's just how I. I don't know."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1137.31,"endTime":1138.59,"body":"That's like, my metaphor right now."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1138.59,"endTime":1144.95,"body":"I usually layer it on each rewriting session"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1138.59,"endTime":1144.95,"body":"and, like, expand."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1144.95,"endTime":1146.03,"body":"But I do."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1146.03,"endTime":1148.31,"body":"I think it's really common to do the whole"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1148.31,"endTime":1150.83,"body":"white room thing, you know, writer."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1151.63,"endTime":1154.35,"body":"I see that all the time because I beta read a"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1151.63,"endTime":1154.35,"body":"lot."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1154.51,"endTime":1160.63,"body":"And I do also feel like when I'm writing, it"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1154.51,"endTime":1160.63,"body":"is mostly dialogue for me as well, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1160.63,"endTime":1161.07,"body":"But I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1161.07,"endTime":1165.43,"body":"I guess since I like setting and it's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1161.07,"endTime":1165.43,"body":"habitual, I do incorporate a lot of it while I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1165.43,"endTime":1165.79,"body":"write."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1166.11,"endTime":1167.31,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, I."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1167.79,"endTime":1171.94,"body":"I totally feel the white room vibe, but in my"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1167.79,"endTime":1171.94,"body":"head there, it's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1172.02,"endTime":1172.42,"body":"Why."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1172.58,"endTime":1173.78,"body":"Why do I have to describe it?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1173.78,"endTime":1175.42,"body":"It's just in my head, so that's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1175.42,"endTime":1177.14,"body":"I just miss it because I, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1178.1,"endTime":1181.02,"body":"am living it, you know, like a moving going on"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1178.1,"endTime":1181.02,"body":"in my head."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1181.02,"endTime":1182.5,"body":"And then I'm like, oh, wait, not everybody."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1183.14,"endTime":1184.82,"body":"Yeah, not everybody can see that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1184.82,"endTime":1186.42,"body":"I can see it really good."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1186.58,"endTime":1188.9,"body":"And I'm never going to be able to describe,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1189.46,"endTime":1191.14,"body":"you know, trees holding their breath."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1191.3,"endTime":1192.9,"body":"You know, Like, I just."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1193.06,"endTime":1193.7,"body":"It's not."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1193.86,"endTime":1194.9,"body":"It's a skill I'm still,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1195.31,"endTime":1198.03,"body":"you know, developing with every pass, but I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1195.31,"endTime":1198.03,"body":"think that's incredible."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1198.03,"endTime":1198.43,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1198.99,"endTime":1200.35,"body":"It's, like, very immersive."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1200.99,"endTime":1201.63,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1201.71,"endTime":1204.35,"body":"Like, I have the opposite problem where"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1201.71,"endTime":1204.35,"body":"I have to, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1205.79,"endTime":1209.55,"body":"if I can't see the setting and, like, feel the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1205.79,"endTime":1209.55,"body":"vibe of the setting, like, it's really hard"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1209.55,"endTime":1211.07,"body":"for me to see what's going on in the scene."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1211.15,"endTime":1212.63,"body":"So I have, like, the opposite problem where"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1212.63,"endTime":1216.03,"body":"I'll get hung up on trying to get the setting"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1212.63,"endTime":1216.03,"body":"vibe right when it's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1216.27,"endTime":1218.83,"body":"girl, you don't even know what this book is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1216.27,"endTime":1218.83,"body":"about yet."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1220.27,"endTime":1221.63,"body":"Just keep moving."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1222.67,"endTime":1223.27,"body":"So I've been."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1223.27,"endTime":1224.71,"body":"I've been getting better about, you know."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1224.78,"endTime":1228.74,"body":"You know, accepting that I don't always know"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1224.78,"endTime":1228.74,"body":"exactly what the emotional arc of a scene is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1228.74,"endTime":1229.02,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1229.42,"endTime":1233.18,"body":"So because of that, I can't get the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1229.42,"endTime":1233.18,"body":"description, like, perfectly right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1233.42,"endTime":1237.18,"body":"But I'll still try for a little while and then"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1233.42,"endTime":1237.18,"body":"be like, keep going."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1237.74,"endTime":1238.7,"body":"Have to move on."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1239.58,"endTime":1240.62,"body":"Yeah. Two things."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1240.779,"endTime":1244.5,"body":"First, going back to you, Rachel, you write"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1244.5,"endTime":1246.34,"body":"mafia stuff, though, right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1246.34,"endTime":1246.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1246.66,"endTime":1250.22,"body":"So that's one thing I did want"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1246.66,"endTime":1250.22,"body":"to touch on because, like, since I do beta"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1250.22,"endTime":1256.28,"body":"read a ton and I don't really exchange with"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1250.22,"endTime":1256.28,"body":"any Gothic romance authors, I feel like it's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1256.28,"endTime":1257.12,"body":"pretty typical."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1257.12,"endTime":1259.84,"body":"Like, you don't need to put as much because"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1257.12,"endTime":1259.84,"body":"you're."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1260.4,"endTime":1263.12,"body":"You don't necessarily even want that much,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1263.76,"endTime":1265.84,"body":"you know, So I think it's okay,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1266.32,"endTime":1266.8,"body":"probably,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1267.2,"endTime":1269.92,"body":"that you're not having the trees hold their"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1267.2,"endTime":1269.92,"body":"breath, you know?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1270.0,"endTime":1273.68,"body":"Yeah. I think it's like, I know what"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1270.0,"endTime":1273.68,"body":"my readers want."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1274.08,"endTime":1274.76,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1274.76,"endTime":1277.12,"body":"They. They're not really concerned"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1274.76,"endTime":1277.12,"body":"about."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1277.68,"endTime":1277.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1277.96,"endTime":1278.96,"body":"You know, all the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1279.76,"endTime":1281.64,"body":"Of course we need to fill in the blanks."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1281.64,"endTime":1281.84,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1281.84,"endTime":1287.08,"body":"And, like, I. I definitely need to add that,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1281.84,"endTime":1287.08,"body":"but I think that's why I specifically, really"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1287.08,"endTime":1290.88,"body":"latched on to this section of contemporary."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1291.12,"endTime":1294.64,"body":"Like Mafia specifically, is because I love"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1291.12,"endTime":1294.64,"body":"fantasy,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1295.04,"endTime":1298.88,"body":"but I don't love world building a ton."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1299.44,"endTime":1300.48,"body":"And I,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1300.8,"endTime":1302.52,"body":"like, read the hell out of it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1302.52,"endTime":1302.92,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1302.92,"endTime":1303.92,"body":"I adore it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1304.29,"endTime":1304.45,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1304.45,"endTime":1307.81,"body":"But I've never felt super comfortable"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1304.45,"endTime":1307.81,"body":"in that space."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1307.81,"endTime":1309.53,"body":"It's not, like, my zone of genius."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1309.53,"endTime":1312.37,"body":"So going into Mafia, it's basically fantasy."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1312.53,"endTime":1314.53,"body":"Like, yeah, this is real."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1314.85,"endTime":1315.25,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1315.89,"endTime":1322.69,"body":"none of this is grounded in reality, you know?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1315.89,"endTime":1322.69,"body":"Like, it just so over the top that making it,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1322.69,"endTime":1327.13,"body":"like, over the top in a contemporary world,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1322.69,"endTime":1327.13,"body":"like, just really matched with my preferences,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1327.13,"endTime":1333.33,"body":"because people can visualize New York City"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1327.13,"endTime":1333.33,"body":"without me having to describe the buildings,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1333.65,"endTime":1334.77,"body":"you know, just can."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1335.01,"endTime":1336.05,"body":"Cool. It's New York City."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1336.05,"endTime":1336.77,"body":"We're on a street."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1337.01,"endTime":1338.21,"body":"Yeah. Great."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1338.21,"endTime":1341.57,"body":"You know, it's been a nice home."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1341.57,"endTime":1342.45,"body":"For me for now."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1343.65,"endTime":1345.93,"body":"That's great. Yeah. Okay. And then my other"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1343.65,"endTime":1345.93,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1345.93,"endTime":1346.85,"body":"I'm trying to remember everything."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1346.93,"endTime":1348.37,"body":"So back to Emily now."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1348.53,"endTime":1353.01,"body":"So I was gonna say, I am exactly the same"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1348.53,"endTime":1353.01,"body":"with, like, getting hung up on things."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1353.09,"endTime":1357.69,"body":"For me, it's often perfectionism, though, so I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1353.09,"endTime":1357.69,"body":"totally relate to that, where I keep having to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1357.69,"endTime":1358.69,"body":"remind myself, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1359.1,"endTime":1362.94,"body":"just go and finish the story, and then you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1359.1,"endTime":1362.94,"body":"can, like, do more, you know?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1363.02,"endTime":1364.62,"body":"So I totally relate to that also."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1364.62,"endTime":1365.82,"body":"It's a struggle, you know?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1366.38,"endTime":1366.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1368.14,"endTime":1369.42,"body":"We are, like, really."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1369.42,"endTime":1371.74,"body":"We talk a lot about the inner critic, and I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1371.74,"endTime":1372.38,"body":"know this."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1372.38,"endTime":1374.62,"body":"We're not talking about the inner critic for"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1374.62,"endTime":1377.1,"body":"this podcast, but I just think it's so"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1374.62,"endTime":1377.1,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1377.42,"endTime":1381.14,"body":"Can we talk about your perfectionism?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1377.42,"endTime":1381.14,"body":"Can we talk about that a little bit?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1381.14,"endTime":1381.74,"body":"And, like, how."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1381.98,"endTime":1383.54,"body":"How does that show up for you?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1383.54,"endTime":1387.96,"body":"And I think it's a constant learning journey"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1383.54,"endTime":1387.96,"body":"to navigate."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1388.36,"endTime":1391.0,"body":"You know, inner critic voices, perfectionism,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1388.36,"endTime":1391.0,"body":"specifically."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1391.0,"endTime":1393.96,"body":"It's something that Emily and I have both"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1391.0,"endTime":1393.96,"body":"struggled with and talked a lot about on the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1393.96,"endTime":1398.44,"body":"podcast, but it's a. It's an ongoing thing."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1398.44,"endTime":1399.64,"body":"So how do you tackle it?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1400.2,"endTime":1404.8,"body":"Yeah, I would do want to say I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1400.2,"endTime":1404.8,"body":"listened to two of your podcasts on it, and I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1404.8,"endTime":1408.6,"body":"think it's really helpful and kind of to work"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1404.8,"endTime":1408.6,"body":"on that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1409.64,"endTime":1410.92,"body":"So I appreciate that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1411.08,"endTime":1413.16,"body":"So for me, it shows up as, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1413.65,"endTime":1419.17,"body":"I really like to have a lyrical cadence, and I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1413.65,"endTime":1419.17,"body":"think of my prose a lot as art."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1419.17,"endTime":1423.01,"body":"Like, I'm doing it for my own artistic"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1419.17,"endTime":1423.01,"body":"expression."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1423.01,"endTime":1423.57,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1424.05,"endTime":1432.57,"body":"so sometimes I would get super fixated on just"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1424.05,"endTime":1432.57,"body":"reorganizing sentences over and over for,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1432.57,"endTime":1434.61,"body":"like, way too long than is necessary."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1434.85,"endTime":1438.21,"body":"So that way it sounds beautiful when you read"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1438.21,"endTime":1439.01,"body":"it in your head."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1439.85,"endTime":1444.97,"body":"And I often just have to remind myself,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1439.85,"endTime":1444.97,"body":"though, like, readers are going to read it,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1444.97,"endTime":1447.61,"body":"like, in a second, you know, So I don't."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1448.17,"endTime":1450.37,"body":"I just need to push past that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1450.37,"endTime":1453.45,"body":"And I also have a hard time, like, allowing my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1454.41,"endTime":1458.89,"body":"prose to be messy before moving on with Never"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1454.41,"endTime":1458.89,"body":"Leave, Never Lie."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1458.89,"endTime":1465.73,"body":"I had a really great routine where I actually"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1458.89,"endTime":1465.73,"body":"had a really clean draft by the end because I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1465.88,"endTime":1471.32,"body":"I would polish it before sending it off to my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1465.88,"endTime":1471.32,"body":"beta readers each time we swap or critique"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1471.32,"endTime":1473.32,"body":"partners each time we swap chapters, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1473.64,"endTime":1476.2,"body":"so I was able to deliver this,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1476.6,"endTime":1477.72,"body":"you know, finished product,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1478.04,"endTime":1480.52,"body":"but now, like, this isn't working for this"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1478.04,"endTime":1480.52,"body":"project."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1480.52,"endTime":1482.2,"body":"I've been writing it for way too long."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1482.2,"endTime":1484.36,"body":"It's been, like, over a year, which is so"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1484.36,"endTime":1485.32,"body":"tragic to me."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1485.56,"endTime":1486.96,"body":"But we're getting close to the end."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1486.96,"endTime":1489.28,"body":"But anyways, like, I have to change gears."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1489.28,"endTime":1492.08,"body":"I can't say that I'm going to have a polished"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1492.08,"endTime":1492.84,"body":"draft, especially."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1493.01,"endTime":1495.45,"body":"Especially when sometimes the plot changes"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1495.45,"endTime":1499.01,"body":"along the way and then you end up, like, just"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1495.45,"endTime":1499.01,"body":"deleting all that anyways, so."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1499.41,"endTime":1499.85,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1499.85,"endTime":1501.89,"body":"Yeah. Oh, I feel that in my bones."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1504.21,"endTime":1508.65,"body":"Yeah. I think if it works, if"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1504.21,"endTime":1508.65,"body":"you're actually making progress and you're"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1508.65,"endTime":1511.89,"body":"finding joy in it, but if you're not, then"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1508.65,"endTime":1511.89,"body":"Gotta do something different."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1511.89,"endTime":1513.17,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1514.21,"endTime":1514.61,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1514.61,"endTime":1516.45,"body":"I have a question about Gothic."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1516.77,"endTime":1522.97,"body":"Does Gothic have a structure?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1516.77,"endTime":1522.97,"body":"Like, do you use a story structure that is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1523.05,"endTime":1525.45,"body":"specific to that genre?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1523.05,"endTime":1525.45,"body":"The reason I ask is because."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1525.45,"endTime":1526.09,"body":"Hot take."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1526.17,"endTime":1529.05,"body":"I am realizing that Save the Cat doesn't work"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1529.45,"endTime":1530.81,"body":"for me right now."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1531.29,"endTime":1532.89,"body":"Oh, my God. Earth shattering."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1533.13,"endTime":1535.93,"body":"We'll do a whole episode on that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1536.25,"endTime":1539.53,"body":"But I'm realizing that that's not how"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1536.25,"endTime":1539.53,"body":"thrillers work."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1540.57,"endTime":1542.41,"body":"And I. This is a developing thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1542.65,"endTime":1544.37,"body":"I just had a conversation with my critique"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1544.37,"endTime":1547.13,"body":"partner about it this morning because I was"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1544.37,"endTime":1547.13,"body":"like, I can't figure out my all is Lost."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1547.13,"endTime":1549.05,"body":"And she's like, it's because it doesn't work"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1547.13,"endTime":1549.05,"body":"the same."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1550.09,"endTime":1553.01,"body":"Because if you have a Save the Cat all its"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1550.09,"endTime":1553.01,"body":"last moment, you're going to kill the tension"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1553.01,"endTime":1554.41,"body":"of the thriller, and then it's all over."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1554.89,"endTime":1556.49,"body":"And I was like, oh, my God,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1556.81,"endTime":1558.49,"body":"my whole worldview is shattering."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1558.81,"endTime":1560.49,"body":"But so putting that aside."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1560.65,"endTime":1561.53,"body":"Talk about it later."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1561.93,"endTime":1563.29,"body":"I'm curious, like, is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1563.37,"endTime":1566.05,"body":"Does Gothic not suffer?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1566.05,"endTime":1570.49,"body":"Does Gothic have that challenge of, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1566.05,"endTime":1570.49,"body":"having its own kind of structure?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1570.65,"endTime":1573.09,"body":"Do you use a structure?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1570.65,"endTime":1573.09,"body":"Do you just kind of make it up?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1573.09,"endTime":1575.21,"body":"Like, what's your approach?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1573.09,"endTime":1575.21,"body":"Your Personal approach."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1575.21,"endTime":1577.13,"body":"You don't have to answer for the genre as a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1575.21,"endTime":1577.13,"body":"whole."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1578.25,"endTime":1578.81,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1578.97,"endTime":1582.13,"body":"Yeah. I do think for Gothic, there is kind of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1582.13,"endTime":1590.37,"body":"that expectation of, like, the whole building"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1582.13,"endTime":1590.37,"body":"dread, building tension towards the end, you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1590.37,"endTime":1593.13,"body":"know, and, like, something really crazy"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1590.37,"endTime":1593.13,"body":"happening or whatever."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1593.21,"endTime":1596.09,"body":"But for me, I just."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1596.33,"endTime":1598.33,"body":"I'm very familiar with, like, the general"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1598.49,"endTime":1602.97,"body":"romance arc, so I so use romance."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1603.46,"endTime":1603.82,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1603.82,"endTime":1604.26,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1604.66,"endTime":1606.02,"body":"yeah. Cause I'm like."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1606.02,"endTime":1607.94,"body":"I started with romance, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1608.82,"endTime":1610.5,"body":"and so I all."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1610.5,"endTime":1612.42,"body":"But I don't do it rigidly."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1612.42,"endTime":1617.86,"body":"I usually just pop in, like, maybe two or"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1612.42,"endTime":1617.86,"body":"three times while I'm writing to make sure my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1617.86,"endTime":1620.5,"body":"beats are hitting vaguely where they're"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1617.86,"endTime":1620.5,"body":"supposed to be."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1620.9,"endTime":1623.14,"body":"But because I do have, like."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1623.46,"endTime":1626.82,"body":"I feel like I do, like, a stepladder sort of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1623.46,"endTime":1626.82,"body":"thing towards the end,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1627.22,"endTime":1629.86,"body":"but through, like, the second and third act"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1627.22,"endTime":1629.86,"body":"of, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1631.09,"endTime":1636.57,"body":"things get better and then they go back and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1631.09,"endTime":1636.57,"body":"then they get better, and then it goes to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1636.57,"endTime":1640.85,"body":"something even worse the next time for, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1636.57,"endTime":1640.85,"body":"you know, backsliding."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1640.85,"endTime":1643.97,"body":"And it just kind of goes like that until"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1640.85,"endTime":1643.97,"body":"things just explode."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1645.65,"endTime":1650.49,"body":"So. And then another thing that was really"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1645.65,"endTime":1650.49,"body":"helpful was after releasing Never Leave, Never"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1650.49,"endTime":1655.17,"body":"Lie, people kept telling me that this was,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1650.49,"endTime":1655.17,"body":"like, no other book they've ever read."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1657.57,"body":"It wasn't, like, any romance they'd ever read."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1657.81,"endTime":1661.86,"body":"And just I had, like, insecurity about not"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1657.81,"endTime":1661.86,"body":"following that skeleton."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1661.86,"endTime":1666.3,"body":"And, like, do I, you know, am I supposed to be"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1661.86,"endTime":1666.3,"body":"plotting the way everyone else is?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1666.3,"endTime":1668.02,"body":"It's still going to be a good book."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1668.02,"endTime":1672.9,"body":"And now I can just kind of embrace, like, I do"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1668.02,"endTime":1672.9,"body":"write unique stories as long as the pacing"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1673.54,"endTime":1674.02,"body":"works."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1674.02,"endTime":1676.62,"body":"And I do, like, that whole ratcheting up of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1676.62,"endTime":1679.54,"body":"tension towards the end, and we're all happy"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1676.62,"endTime":1679.54,"body":"then."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1679.54,"endTime":1681.78,"body":"If it didn't follow it perfectly, it's okay."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1682.42,"endTime":1684.1,"body":"So, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1684.66,"endTime":1685.14,"body":"Vibes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1685.14,"endTime":1687.34,"body":"If we didn't follow it perfectly, it's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1685.14,"endTime":1687.34,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1687.34,"endTime":1688.02,"body":"That should be."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1689.62,"endTime":1690.66,"body":"Here's the rules."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1691.3,"endTime":1694.42,"body":"Yeah, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1694.42,"endTime":1695.94,"body":"That's probably not good advice for, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1695.94,"endTime":1697.22,"body":"newer authors, I guess."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1697.86,"endTime":1700.26,"body":"I mean, I feel like that's always the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1697.86,"endTime":1700.26,"body":"struggle, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1700.34,"endTime":1701.06,"body":"It's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1701.38,"endTime":1704.58,"body":"yeah, if you don't know anything about the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1701.38,"endTime":1704.58,"body":"craft, you can't, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1705.06,"endTime":1709.22,"body":"you can't really throw the rules out the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1705.06,"endTime":1709.22,"body":"window and, you know, expect yourself to write"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1709.22,"endTime":1712.74,"body":"a successful or not successful but, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1709.22,"endTime":1712.74,"body":"satisfying story, you know?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1713.51,"endTime":1713.91,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1714.31,"endTime":1716.63,"body":"But anyway, yeah, I opened a can of worms."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1719.27,"endTime":1721.59,"body":"Yeah. I read a ton of craft"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1719.27,"endTime":1721.59,"body":"books before."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1721.91,"endTime":1723.59,"body":"Feeling that confident, too."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1723.59,"endTime":1724.07,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1724.63,"endTime":1725.11,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1725.51,"endTime":1726.91,"body":"yeah, I do."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1726.91,"endTime":1730.03,"body":"You feel like I've always had such a hard"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1730.03,"endTime":1733.59,"body":"time, like, making, like, executing craft on"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1730.03,"endTime":1733.59,"body":"the page."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1734.07,"endTime":1739.39,"body":"Um, have you felt the same?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1734.07,"endTime":1739.39,"body":"And I don't know if it's being neurodivergent"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1739.39,"endTime":1742.63,"body":"or just, like, the specific way that my brain"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1739.39,"endTime":1742.63,"body":"works, but, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1743.28,"endTime":1744.88,"body":"craft in a book,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1745.28,"endTime":1747.64,"body":"Like, I'd be like, okay, cool, I get it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1747.64,"endTime":1749.4,"body":"And then I'd approach a page and be like, this"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1749.4,"endTime":1749.84,"body":"isn't."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1750.32,"endTime":1751.52,"body":"No. What?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1750.32,"endTime":1751.52,"body":"What?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1752.16,"endTime":1757.48,"body":"And I mean, we've been doing this now for six"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1752.16,"endTime":1757.48,"body":"years, so like, our business for, like, six"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1757.48,"endTime":1758.08,"body":"years almost."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1758.879,"endTime":1759.44,"body":"Geez."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1761.52,"endTime":1762.24,"body":"Is that math?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1762.24,"endTime":1762.56,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1763.28,"endTime":1765.12,"body":"It's like five and a half, right?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1765.28,"endTime":1765.92,"body":"I guess."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1767.2,"endTime":1768.96,"body":"Yeah. Because it's, like, as old as"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1767.2,"endTime":1768.96,"body":"Rose."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1771.2,"endTime":1771.56,"body":"My daughter."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1771.56,"endTime":1774.4,"body":"My daughter's gonna be five in August, and we,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1774.4,"endTime":1775.04,"body":"like, one."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1775.04,"endTime":1776.48,"body":"It's one year older than Rose."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1776.48,"endTime":1776.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1776.84,"endTime":1777.44,"body":"Cause we started."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1777.6,"endTime":1779.6,"body":"I. I'm like, I. We started the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1777.6,"endTime":1779.6,"body":"business."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1779.68,"endTime":1783.68,"body":"Like, I think we incorporated the month I got"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1779.68,"endTime":1783.68,"body":"pregnant, so."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1783.84,"endTime":1785.2,"body":"Oh, really?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1783.84,"endTime":1785.2,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1785.6,"endTime":1786.32,"body":"Surprise."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1786.64,"endTime":1788.16,"body":"Easy for, though."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1788.32,"endTime":1788.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1790.64,"endTime":1796.32,"body":"Anyway, your experience with, like, learning"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1790.64,"endTime":1796.32,"body":"craft and then applying it to the page, do you"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1796.32,"endTime":1796.9,"body":"feel like it's been."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1797.05,"endTime":1798.85,"body":"Been this kind of trial and error and you have"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1798.85,"endTime":1803.05,"body":"an instinct that you've learned to, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1798.85,"endTime":1803.05,"body":"listen to and pay attention to?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1804.01,"endTime":1805.53,"body":"Yeah. So plot books."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1805.53,"endTime":1807.89,"body":"And for that part of the craft, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1807.89,"endTime":1810.33,"body":"really common, from what I've heard of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1807.89,"endTime":1810.33,"body":"friends,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1810.81,"endTime":1814.25,"body":"that it doesn't really necessarily resonate."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1814.25,"endTime":1816.01,"body":"And I felt that way too."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1816.17,"endTime":1817.77,"body":"That's why having, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1818.09,"endTime":1823.49,"body":"a sort of chart with the romance beats that I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1818.09,"endTime":1823.49,"body":"can plug my own points into is a lot easier"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1823.49,"endTime":1826.97,"body":"than me actually trying to hit the beats while"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1823.49,"endTime":1826.97,"body":"I'm writing."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1827.16,"endTime":1827.32,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1827.71,"endTime":1830.03,"body":"um. But as to, like, other craft stuff,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1830.35,"endTime":1833.31,"body":"I. My favorite book is self editing for."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1834.27,"endTime":1841.07,"body":"And I usually read it once a year to, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1834.27,"endTime":1841.07,"body":"make sure I'm following all of those things."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1841.23,"endTime":1842.91,"body":"But I did feel that way."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1842.91,"endTime":1844.91,"body":"Like, I didn't realize I did have these"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1844.91,"endTime":1848.79,"body":"instincts, and I don't know where they come"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1844.91,"endTime":1848.79,"body":"from if it's just from reading a lot, you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1848.79,"endTime":1849.07,"body":"know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1849.87,"endTime":1854.35,"body":"or just, you know, sometimes you're just more"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1849.87,"endTime":1854.35,"body":"skied towards certain, you know, things."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1855.14,"endTime":1859.14,"body":"And I felt like a lot of times when I'd be"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1855.14,"endTime":1859.14,"body":"reading, I'm like, oh, yeah, I do do that."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1859.14,"endTime":1861.54,"body":"I just lack confidence in that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1862.1,"endTime":1863.22,"body":"so it helped me."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1864.1,"endTime":1866.62,"body":"Some people, you know, you get too rigid"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1864.1,"endTime":1866.62,"body":"trying to follow the rules."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1866.62,"endTime":1868.86,"body":"But for me, it kind of was like, okay, I need"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1866.62,"endTime":1868.86,"body":"to trust myself."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1868.86,"endTime":1869.82,"body":"That's just my personality."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1869.82,"endTime":1871.74,"body":"I don't really trust myself to succeed."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1871.74,"endTime":1877.78,"body":"I guess imposter syndrome is the worst."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1878.58,"endTime":1878.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1878.94,"endTime":1881.54,"body":"Yeah. So that I guess I can take"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1878.94,"endTime":1881.54,"body":"into."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1881.54,"endTime":1882.66,"body":"But I definitely."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1882.66,"endTime":1883.14,"body":"Since I."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1883.59,"endTime":1887.91,"body":"I do try to keep it in my mind, you know, like"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1883.59,"endTime":1887.91,"body":"that specific specificity."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1890.19,"body":"I don't know if I pronounced that right in the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1890.19,"body":"moment."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1890.19,"endTime":1892.71,"body":"But that is from that book too, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1893.35,"endTime":1895.99,"body":"And I feel like it's just really"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1893.35,"endTime":1895.99,"body":"sophisticated,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1896.47,"endTime":1898.39,"body":"made my writing more sophisticated."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1898.47,"endTime":1899.67,"body":"So. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1899.91,"endTime":1900.87,"body":"Do you feel like."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1901.11,"endTime":1902.15,"body":"So as you're talking,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1903.11,"endTime":1903.51,"body":"we."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1903.91,"endTime":1909.79,"body":"We really think of the importance of, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1903.91,"endTime":1909.79,"body":"self trust is really so critical to this whole"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1909.79,"endTime":1910.07,"body":"process."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1911.02,"endTime":1914.14,"body":"Um, and then as you were talking, it, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1911.02,"endTime":1914.14,"body":"reminded me a little bit of what we were"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1914.14,"endTime":1915.66,"body":"speaking about earlier, about perfectionism."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1915.82,"endTime":1917.78,"body":"Do you feel like the more that you do it and"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1917.78,"endTime":1922.94,"body":"the more that you build the self trust, your"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1917.78,"endTime":1922.94,"body":"perfectionism gets, like, better or worse or,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1922.94,"endTime":1923.18,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1923.18,"endTime":1923.9,"body":"easier to."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1924.22,"endTime":1925.42,"body":"Easier to work around?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1933.54,"body":"Um, I don't know about you guys,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1933.54,"body":"but I feel like it's kind of always there a"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1933.54,"endTime":1933.98,"body":"little bit,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1934.3,"endTime":1936.7,"body":"especially with the whole imposter syndrome."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1936.7,"endTime":1939.26,"body":"I feel like with myself and a lot of friends,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1939.26,"endTime":1939.66,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1940.04,"endTime":1946.84,"body":"that perfectionism sometimes gets kind of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1940.04,"endTime":1946.84,"body":"like, flare of it or whatever because you have"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1946.84,"endTime":1950.04,"body":"this, like, feeling of being an imposter"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1946.84,"endTime":1950.04,"body":"again."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1951.56,"endTime":1953.72,"body":"So for me, it does get better."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1953.72,"endTime":1955.919,"body":"And I definitely have moved into that role of,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1955.919,"endTime":1962.48,"body":"like, being like, okay, I'm good at this, you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1955.919,"endTime":1962.48,"body":"know, but even still, I think often, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1962.48,"endTime":1966.16,"body":"that, no, I need to, like, get this just"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1962.48,"endTime":1966.16,"body":"right, because if it's not just right, then"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1966.16,"endTime":1966.96,"body":"the book is going to,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1966.96,"endTime":1967.96,"body":"like, completely fail."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1967.96,"endTime":1968.36,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1968.7,"endTime":1969.5,"body":"you know, so,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1970.3,"endTime":1970.82,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1970.82,"endTime":1972.66,"body":"I have, like, all mental health things of my"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1972.66,"endTime":1975.42,"body":"own going on, so that probably feeds into it"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1972.66,"endTime":1975.42,"body":"too."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1975.58,"endTime":1978.78,"body":"But on the whole, yes, I do think it's kind"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1975.58,"endTime":1978.78,"body":"of."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1978.78,"endTime":1983.74,"body":"I've learned to trust myself and feel stronger"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1978.78,"endTime":1983.74,"body":"in my instincts and everything."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":1984.539,"endTime":1985.34,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1988.54,"endTime":1991.58,"body":"Yeah. The best way to build trust is to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1988.54,"endTime":1991.58,"body":"do the thing."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1992.62,"endTime":1994.42,"body":"Gotta keep trying yourself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1994.42,"endTime":1995.26,"body":"You can do the thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1995.26,"endTime":1995.74,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1996.94,"endTime":1997.58,"body":"Yeah. I'm in."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1997.58,"endTime":1999.94,"body":"Like, I'm about to start revisions for my"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":1999.94,"endTime":2000.38,"body":"third book."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2000.38,"endTime":2002.3,"body":"And the only reason why I'm not freaking out"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2002.3,"endTime":2005.42,"body":"about it is because I've done it twice before,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2002.3,"endTime":2005.42,"body":"and I'm like, if I could figure that out."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2005.98,"endTime":2008.7,"body":"I know it's like the last thing a new"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2005.98,"endTime":2008.7,"body":"writer wants to hear."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2008.7,"endTime":2011.54,"body":"It's like, oh, well, you just have to do the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2008.7,"endTime":2011.54,"body":"thing to believe you can do the thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2011.54,"endTime":2012.219,"body":"But, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2012.54,"endTime":2014.14,"body":"nothing's ever been more true."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2014.46,"endTime":2015.62,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2015.62,"endTime":2016.02,"body":"I'm."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2016.02,"endTime":2018.34,"body":"I'm coaching a writer, like one of our"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2018.34,"endTime":2021.26,"body":"wonderful writers in our community right now"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2018.34,"endTime":2021.26,"body":"through a revision."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2021.74,"endTime":2022.14,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2023.28,"endTime":2025.68,"body":"like, the last time I spoke with her, I was"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2023.28,"endTime":2025.68,"body":"like, this sucks."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2025.68,"endTime":2026.48,"body":"But, like, the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2026.48,"endTime":2028.08,"body":"The best thing I could tell you is you just"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2028.08,"endTime":2029.2,"body":"have to start doing it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2030.16,"endTime":2031.4,"body":"You're not gonna know how to do."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2031.4,"endTime":2032.56,"body":"It until you do it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2032.64,"endTime":2037.12,"body":"And, like, we can make our plan and I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2032.64,"endTime":2037.12,"body":"can help you as much as I can, but until You."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2038.16,"endTime":2043.64,"body":"Until you like, actually put your body through"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2038.16,"endTime":2043.64,"body":"the motions, it just doesn't sink in of like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2043.64,"endTime":2045.2,"body":"oh, that's how it works."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2046.32,"endTime":2047.4,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2047.4,"endTime":2050.61,"body":"That's actually advice that resonates a lot"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2050.61,"endTime":2055.49,"body":"with me for I. I don't remember where I"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2050.61,"endTime":2055.49,"body":"learned it, but something about like, you're."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2055.49,"endTime":2057.89,"body":"Each book, each time you do something,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2058.61,"endTime":2062.73,"body":"it's going to be better, not worse, because"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2058.61,"endTime":2062.73,"body":"you have that practice."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2062.73,"endTime":2068.13,"body":"So, like, if you're doubting yourself, if you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2062.73,"endTime":2068.13,"body":"just keep going, you are genuinely going to"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2068.13,"endTime":2069.17,"body":"keep improving, improving."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2069.17,"endTime":2073.93,"body":"So when imposter syndrome says, like, this"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2069.17,"endTime":2073.93,"body":"sucks, you can at least tell yourself, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2073.93,"endTime":2078.49,"body":"no, the odds are much more likely that it does"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2073.93,"endTime":2078.49,"body":"not, you know, and it's better than what you"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2078.49,"endTime":2079.71,"body":"did before, you know, so."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2079.779,"endTime":2082.979,"body":"So, yeah, I'm gonna hold on to that"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2079.779,"endTime":2082.979,"body":"real tight."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2083.059,"endTime":2083.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2083.459,"endTime":2084.659,"body":"These next couple weeks."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2085.459,"endTime":2086.899,"body":"Yeah, you just gotta keep going."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2087.699,"endTime":2088.259,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2089.059,"endTime":2089.939,"body":"Yeah. Cool."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2090.819,"endTime":2096.459,"body":"Well, do you have any, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2090.819,"endTime":2096.459,"body":"on atmosphere, on setting, on writing life in"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2096.459,"endTime":2100.059,"body":"general?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2096.459,"endTime":2100.059,"body":"Any like, final takeaways to share with our"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2100.059,"endTime":2100.899,"body":"listeners or."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2100.899,"endTime":2102.819,"body":"Or major things you've learned throughout the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2102.819,"endTime":2103.139,"body":"process?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2104.259,"endTime":2109.419,"body":"For my advice, I guess for"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2104.259,"endTime":2109.419,"body":"making a setting that's atmospheric and feels"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2109.419,"endTime":2112.9,"body":"like it's own character is to make it living."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2113.7,"endTime":2119.78,"body":"For my current project right now that there's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2113.7,"endTime":2119.78,"body":"like an ocean that surrounds this castle and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2119.78,"endTime":2125.22,"body":"it becomes a tidal island during high tide"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2119.78,"endTime":2125.22,"body":"where it's impassable, you know, by road,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2125.22,"endTime":2127.06,"body":"because the ocean's like swallowed it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2127.22,"endTime":2135.22,"body":"And so even like the ocean itself has this"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2127.22,"endTime":2135.22,"body":"sort of hunger about it in this like, bread"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2135.22,"endTime":2138.07,"body":"that builds each time that tide is high."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2138.63,"endTime":2144.23,"body":"And it, like, I bring it into the setting is"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2138.63,"endTime":2144.23,"body":"always alive in there because, like, even when"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2144.31,"endTime":2144.71,"body":"they,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2145.19,"endTime":2146.23,"body":"I don't know, just,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2146.55,"endTime":2147.11,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2147.43,"endTime":2150.07,"body":"boned or whatever, they're in their song,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2151.11,"endTime":2153.51,"body":"I'm like, how can I see this?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2151.11,"endTime":2153.51,"body":"I know I'm allowed,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2154.07,"endTime":2158.63,"body":"but good thing, like, my parents still listen"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2154.07,"endTime":2158.63,"body":"to this stuff anyway."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2160.39,"endTime":2163.35,"body":"Yeah. So it'll be like all romantical or hot"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2160.39,"endTime":2163.35,"body":"or whatever."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2163.35,"endTime":2165.27,"body":"But then if I want to build, like."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2165.45,"endTime":2168.09,"body":"Yeah, they had this great scene here and"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2168.09,"endTime":2170.09,"body":"there's sort of built intimacy."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2170.09,"endTime":2174.29,"body":"But because this is gothic and everyone has"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2170.09,"endTime":2174.29,"body":"secrets and all, there's actually this like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2174.29,"endTime":2176.01,"body":"insecurity that's building back into."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2177.29,"endTime":2180.89,"body":"I'll have like, he can hear the tide and it"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2177.29,"endTime":2180.89,"body":"seems so close."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2180.89,"endTime":2183.37,"body":"It feels like it's right beneath the window."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2183.37,"endTime":2185.21,"body":"And that like, brings that whole"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2185.21,"endTime":2186.33,"body":"claustrophobia."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2186.57,"endTime":2188.17,"body":"So, yeah, just try to like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2188.73,"endTime":2190.89,"body":"literally think of it as a living thing."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2191.16,"endTime":2193.0,"body":"What does the setting want?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2193.32,"endTime":2195.88,"body":"You know, just like, what does a character"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2193.32,"endTime":2195.88,"body":"want?"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2200.36,"body":"And at least for the ocean in this case, it's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2200.36,"body":"to Consume."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2201.48,"endTime":2207.96,"body":"Yeah. And for the wisteria as an example for"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2201.48,"endTime":2207.96,"body":"never leave, never a lie."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2208.04,"endTime":2211.88,"body":"I feel like it's also this point of, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2212.6,"endTime":2216.04,"body":"sort of like mirroring what happens with"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2212.6,"endTime":2216.04,"body":"Alec's uncle."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2216.04,"endTime":2222.71,"body":"It's like this benevolent thing that it saves"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2216.04,"endTime":2222.71,"body":"him and then, you know, it's broken,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2223.03,"endTime":2229.67,"body":"but then it builds back and grows, and then it"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2223.03,"endTime":2229.67,"body":"actually brings back Alex music in the end."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2229.83,"endTime":2234.63,"body":"So it's like a gift, you know, so like a"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2229.83,"endTime":2234.63,"body":"paternal gift."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2234.63,"endTime":2235.11,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2235.83,"endTime":2237.03,"body":"Oh, that's really cool."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2237.19,"endTime":2241.27,"body":"Giving me all my brains, like, project, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2241.75,"endTime":2242.79,"body":"all these ideas."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2243.19,"endTime":2244.07,"body":"No, that's great."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2245.19,"endTime":2246.83,"body":"Well, thank you so much, Taeya."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2246.83,"endTime":2247.26,"body":"This was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2247.57,"endTime":2248.29,"body":"This was really fun."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2248.85,"endTime":2249.33,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2249.81,"endTime":2250.93,"body":"it was so fun."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2251.01,"endTime":2253.09,"body":"Yeah. And I just want to say, like, seriously,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2253.17,"endTime":2258.41,"body":"when I heard about you using my writing in the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2253.17,"endTime":2258.41,"body":"class, it was literally something I'd never"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2258.41,"endTime":2259.01,"body":"imagined."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2259.09,"endTime":2263.97,"body":"And it was the biggest achievement, I think,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2259.09,"endTime":2263.97,"body":"of all that I had."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2264.21,"endTime":2266.21,"body":"Like, it just was such an honor because, like,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2266.53,"endTime":2269.77,"body":"craft is so important to me and like, the art"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2266.53,"endTime":2269.77,"body":"of writing and stuff."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2269.77,"endTime":2272.05,"body":"So thank you very much for, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2272.53,"endTime":2277.29,"body":"seeing beauty in my work and thinking it's"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2272.53,"endTime":2277.29,"body":"actually worthy of teaching someone and then"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2277.29,"endTime":2280.32,"body":"for having me on to talk to you, you guys, of"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2277.29,"endTime":2280.32,"body":"course."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2280.32,"endTime":2281.68,"body":"It was such an honor."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2282.16,"endTime":2282.68,"body":"It was."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2282.68,"endTime":2286.64,"body":"And like, you know, I. I know we"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2282.68,"endTime":2286.64,"body":"talked about perfectionism, imposter syndrome,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2287.44,"endTime":2292.16,"body":"so I. I can't speak to the root of that, but I"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2287.44,"endTime":2292.16,"body":"can say, like, I really enjoyed the book and."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2292.16,"endTime":2294.72,"body":"And I. I really wanted to highlight, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2295.04,"endTime":2301.0,"body":"how much it meant to me to read those p. Like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2295.04,"endTime":2301.0,"body":"you can see that effort come through in the"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2301.0,"endTime":2306.55,"body":"pages and it just results in such a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2301.0,"endTime":2306.55,"body":"story, like, every aspect,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2307.03,"endTime":2307.39,"body":"the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2307.39,"endTime":2309.91,"body":"The romance, the setting, the atmosphere,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2310.39,"endTime":2312.15,"body":"the mental health representation,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2312.55,"endTime":2312.95,"body":"the."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2313.19,"endTime":2315.03,"body":"The way we didn't even cover these other"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2315.03,"endTime":2315.31,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2315.31,"endTime":2317.91,"body":"But there's like a whole backstory timeline"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2318.15,"endTime":2320.63,"body":"also, which Emily writes in her books too."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2321.11,"endTime":2321.67,"body":"So, like,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2321.99,"endTime":2326.75,"body":"there's so many different pieces of that book"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2321.99,"endTime":2326.75,"body":"that really stood out to me and."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2326.75,"endTime":2327.35,"body":"And it."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2327.43,"endTime":2330.07,"body":"It was right at home in our examples for that."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2330.63,"endTime":2331.91,"body":"For that class."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2332.71,"endTime":2333.35,"body":"That means."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2334.31,"endTime":2335.03,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2335.27,"endTime":2336.07,"body":"Well, to."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2336.31,"endTime":2337.99,"body":"To kind of send us off here."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2337.99,"endTime":2341.75,"body":"Can you tell readers or listeners where they"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2337.99,"endTime":2341.75,"body":"can find you?"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2341.99,"endTime":2345.67,"body":"And I know you have two kind of upcoming big"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2341.99,"endTime":2345.67,"body":"news things."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2346.23,"endTime":2351.83,"body":"Yeah. So I actually have the"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2346.23,"endTime":2351.83,"body":"audiobook of Never Leave, Never Lie coming out"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2351.99,"endTime":2352.95,"body":"in July."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2353.03,"endTime":2358.32,"body":"15 Pre orders are just recently live if you"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2358.72,"endTime":2359.88,"body":"want to pick it up."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2359.88,"endTime":2360.8,"body":"That's coming soon."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2360.96,"endTime":2368.32,"body":"Alex Kidd is playing Ian, which I know, like,"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2360.96,"endTime":2368.32,"body":"some audiobook readers are like, oh my gosh,"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2368.48,"endTime":2371.52,"body":"this is my guy for like, you know, each"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2368.48,"endTime":2371.52,"body":"narrator."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2371.679,"endTime":2374.52,"body":"And then Curtis Michael Holland is playing"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2371.679,"endTime":2374.52,"body":"Alec."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2374.52,"endTime":2377.56,"body":"And they both sound like, so perfect and"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2374.52,"endTime":2377.56,"body":"they're going to crush it."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2377.56,"endTime":2380.32,"body":"And I'm really excited for everyone to."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2380.4,"endTime":2381.2,"body":"To hear it."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2381.67,"endTime":2386.07,"body":"And then in general, my book, what Death"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2381.67,"endTime":2386.07,"body":"Forgets, which is like another, you know, mm,"},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2386.31,"endTime":2387.59,"body":"modern gothic romance."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2387.99,"endTime":2389.75,"body":"It will come out this year."},{"speaker":"7","startTime":2389.75,"endTime":2390.51,"body":"100%."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2390.51,"endTime":2390.91,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2390.91,"endTime":2395.39,"body":"I'm thinking it will be"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2390.91,"endTime":2395.39,"body":"September to October, but don't tell anyone"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2395.39,"endTime":2395.99,"body":"this year."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2398.47,"endTime":2401.99,"body":"But it fits the vibe of release and I think"},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2402.63,"endTime":2403.59,"body":"it'll be then."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2403.83,"endTime":2404.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2409.03,"body":"Well, we will put links to your"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2409.03,"body":"website in the show notes and as,"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2410.54,"endTime":2413.26,"body":"as soon as what Death Forgets comes out, I am"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2410.54,"endTime":2413.26,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2413.26,"endTime":2414.42,"body":"I'm going to be reading it."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2414.42,"endTime":2415.02,"body":"I can't."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2415.98,"endTime":2417.66,"body":"I can't wait to check out your stuff."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2417.66,"endTime":2419.02,"body":"Thank you so much, Thea."},{"speaker":"Thea Verdone","startTime":2419.9,"endTime":2420.54,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2421.82,"endTime":2425.219,"body":"If you want to build a successful,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2421.82,"endTime":2425.219,"body":"fulfilling and sustainable writing life that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2425.219,"endTime":2427.18,"body":"works for you, you've got to get on our email"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2425.219,"endTime":2427.18,"body":"list."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2427.58,"endTime":2431.06,"body":"Sign up now to get our free email"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2427.58,"endTime":2431.06,"body":"course, the Magic of Character Arcs."},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2431.06,"endTime":2435.22,"body":"After seven days of email magic, you'll have"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2431.06,"endTime":2435.22,"body":"the power to keep your readers flipping pages"},{"speaker":"Rachel","startTime":2435.22,"endTime":2436.06,"body":"all through the night."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2436.38,"endTime":2437.4,"body":"Link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2437.47,"endTime":2438.11,"body":"We'll see you there."}]}