{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":178.19,"endTime":178.51,"body":"Foreign."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":191.07,"endTime":191.86999999999998,"body":"Hey, writers."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":191.86999999999998,"endTime":193.63,"body":"Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":193.63,"endTime":195.39,"body":"will help you write a book you're damn proud"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":193.63,"endTime":195.39,"body":"of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":195.39,"endTime":200.26999999999998,"body":"I'm Emily, and today we are including a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":195.39,"endTime":200.26999999999998,"body":"special edition podcast episode that was"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":200.26999999999998,"endTime":205.31,"body":"originally recorded with Sam Cameron for the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":200.26999999999998,"endTime":205.31,"body":"Truant Pen substack."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":205.54999999999998,"endTime":209.31,"body":"Sam is a book coach, an author, and a member"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":205.54999999999998,"endTime":209.31,"body":"of our tenacious writing community."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":210.01,"endTime":216.73,"body":"And in this episode, we discussed what it's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":210.01,"endTime":216.73,"body":"like to revise with editor or agent notes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":216.73,"endTime":222.76999999999998,"body":"It was a fantastic discussion about how we"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":216.73,"endTime":222.76999999999998,"body":"both process and integrate feedback slightly"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":222.76999999999998,"endTime":224.32999999999998,"body":"differently, which was really cool."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":224.64999999999998,"endTime":229.29,"body":"And we broke down some tips and tricks for"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":224.64999999999998,"endTime":229.29,"body":"navigating feedback relationships."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":229.92999999999998,"endTime":234.37,"body":"It's a. This is a great episode for anyone"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":229.92999999999998,"endTime":234.37,"body":"who's looking for practical advice on how to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":234.37,"endTime":238.64999999999998,"body":"integrate feedback of any kind, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":234.37,"endTime":238.64999999999998,"body":"from a beta reader, an agent, an editor."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":239.38,"endTime":245.06,"body":"Um, any kind of feedback doesn't have to be"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":239.38,"endTime":245.06,"body":"the official agent or editor kind."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":245.21999999999997,"endTime":249.45999999999998,"body":"Um, after you're done listening, make sure to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":245.21999999999997,"endTime":249.45999999999998,"body":"go check out Sam's incredible substack."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":249.45999999999998,"endTime":251.21999999999997,"body":"It's called Truant Pen,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":251.54,"endTime":254.1,"body":"where she gives actionable advice for writers."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":254.1,"endTime":255.94,"body":"And I will put the link in the show notes so"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":255.94,"endTime":256.65999999999997,"body":"you can check it out."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":256.82,"endTime":258.26,"body":"But in the meantime, enjoy."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":260.58,"endTime":265.29999999999995,"body":"Welcome to Truant Pen, a substack"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":260.58,"endTime":265.29999999999995,"body":"of actionable advice for stuck writers."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":265.9,"endTime":270.29999999999995,"body":"I'm your host, Sam Cameron, and today I am"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":265.9,"endTime":270.29999999999995,"body":"joined by Emily golden."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":271.02,"endTime":276.5,"body":"Emily golden, aka E.B. golden, is the epic"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":271.02,"endTime":276.5,"body":"romantasy author of the Crimson Curtain"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":276.5,"endTime":279.5,"body":"duology, as well as a developmental editor and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":276.5,"endTime":279.5,"body":"book coach."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":279.5,"endTime":280.38,"body":"With Golden May."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":281.18,"endTime":284.65999999999997,"body":"Since she could hold a pen, she's used"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":281.18,"endTime":284.65999999999997,"body":"speculative fiction to make sense of a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":284.65999999999997,"endTime":285.65999999999997,"body":"nonsensical world."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":285.9,"endTime":287.78,"body":"And when she's not writing, you'll probably"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":287.78,"endTime":291.74,"body":"find her in the mountains of southwest"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":287.78,"endTime":291.74,"body":"Colorado with her husband, daughter, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":291.74,"endTime":293.02,"body":"sometimes their cats."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":293.74,"endTime":294.74,"body":"Emily, welcome."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":294.74,"endTime":295.58,"body":"Thank you for coming."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":296.14,"endTime":296.62,"body":"Hi."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":296.7,"endTime":298.1,"body":"Thank you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":298.1,"endTime":298.94,"body":"I'm so excited."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":299.82,"endTime":300.46,"body":"Me too."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":300.62,"endTime":305.78,"body":"So to get our listeners caught up, the origin"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":305.78,"endTime":312.22,"body":"of this conversation is that I was talking to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":305.78,"endTime":312.22,"body":"one of my critique partners, longtime critique"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":312.22,"endTime":313.5,"body":"partner, writing friends,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":314.38,"endTime":318.53999999999996,"body":"who recentishly started working with her first"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":314.38,"endTime":318.53999999999996,"body":"agent."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":319.19,"endTime":324.23,"body":"Um, and after all of the excitement cleared"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":319.19,"endTime":324.23,"body":"and settled and,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":324.87,"endTime":326.78999999999996,"body":"you know, she signed the contract and all of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":324.87,"endTime":326.78999999999996,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":327.66999999999996,"endTime":335.19,"body":"she got her first edit letter from her agent"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":327.66999999999996,"endTime":335.19,"body":"with suggestions about how to change the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":335.19,"endTime":337.35,"body":"manuscript to get it ready to go on sub."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":337.90999999999997,"endTime":340.63,"body":"And my friend came to our critique group"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":337.90999999999997,"endTime":340.63,"body":"meeting and she said,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":341.27,"endTime":342.66999999999996,"body":"I have no idea how to do this."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":342.66999999999996,"endTime":345.90999999999997,"body":"I don't know, like, how do you go from a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":345.90999999999997,"endTime":349.59,"body":"manuscript that you've been working on alone"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":345.90999999999997,"endTime":349.59,"body":"for 10 plus years?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":349.59,"endTime":352.13,"body":"And I think it was 10 plus years or something"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":349.59,"endTime":352.13,"body":"like that in her case,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":352.45,"endTime":358.21,"body":"how do you go from working alone on this"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":352.45,"endTime":358.21,"body":"manuscript to suddenly having somebody else in"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":358.21,"endTime":360.77,"body":"your process in this really big way?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":361.57,"endTime":364.21,"body":"And how do you actually go tackle,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":365.65,"endTime":369.25,"body":"piece by piece, the things that they're asking"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":365.65,"endTime":369.25,"body":"you to do from this edit letter?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":369.97,"endTime":376.37,"body":"And what she brought up in asking this in our"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":369.97,"endTime":376.37,"body":"meeting was she knows how to find writing"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":376.37,"endTime":376.81,"body":"resources."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":376.81,"endTime":377.89,"body":"She's very good at that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":378.13,"endTime":382.15,"body":"But she was like, people just don't talk that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":378.13,"endTime":382.15,"body":"much about what happens to them."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":382.23,"endTime":385.19,"body":"Like, all of the resources are about how to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":382.23,"endTime":385.19,"body":"get your agent."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":386.15,"endTime":386.87,"body":"And then once you."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":386.87,"endTime":388.07,"body":"It's sort of like, okay, once you have your"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":388.07,"endTime":389.11,"body":"agent, you figured it out,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":390.23,"endTime":390.78999999999996,"body":"solved."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":391.11,"endTime":393.11,"body":"You don't need craft resources anymore."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":393.90999999999997,"endTime":394.95,"body":"You know what you're doing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":396.07,"endTime":401.11,"body":"And so I thought that she brought up a really"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":396.07,"endTime":401.11,"body":"good point, which is that it is a new phase of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":401.11,"endTime":401.51,"body":"the process."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":401.51,"endTime":402.23,"body":"It's very different."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":403.27,"endTime":407.99,"body":"And so the reason I invited Emily here is that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":403.27,"endTime":407.99,"body":"I know she has been through this part of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":407.99,"endTime":411.59,"body":"process of getting feedback both from an agent"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":407.99,"endTime":411.59,"body":"and an editor."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":413.65,"endTime":418.45,"body":"So what we're going to do is I'm going to ask"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":413.65,"endTime":418.45,"body":"Emily some questions and we're both going to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":418.45,"endTime":423.01,"body":"kind of talk about our own experiences with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":418.45,"endTime":423.01,"body":"agents and editors and how to."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":425.16999999999996,"endTime":426.45,"body":"What to do with that feedback."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":427.97,"endTime":429.49,"body":"So to start out with,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":429.81,"endTime":437.37,"body":"could you start by telling Emily everybody how"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":429.81,"endTime":437.37,"body":"you got your agent and your publisher and just"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":437.37,"endTime":438.55,"body":"like, I don't know, your."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":438.55,"endTime":440.43,"body":"Your publishing origin story a little bit?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":441.07,"endTime":441.87,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":442.67,"endTime":443.87,"body":"Gosh, it's all a blur."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":443.87,"endTime":444.87,"body":"So let's see."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":444.87,"endTime":445.55,"body":"I got."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":446.27,"endTime":449.03,"body":"So I started querying my."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":449.03,"endTime":450.19,"body":"So it was my second book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":451.07,"endTime":451.83,"body":"I'll start there."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":451.83,"endTime":455.03,"body":"Because I feel like people need often should"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":455.03,"endTime":458.46999999999997,"body":"know this, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":455.03,"endTime":458.46999999999997,"body":"That that first one doesn't always go"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":458.46999999999997,"endTime":458.99,"body":"anywhere."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":459.07,"endTime":460.87,"body":"And I didn't actually finish the first one."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":460.87,"endTime":462.51,"body":"I worked on it for like five, six years."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":463.4,"endTime":465.47999999999996,"body":"Um, it was an epic, a huge epic fantasy."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":465.47999999999996,"endTime":467.44,"body":"And I just sort of was like this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":467.44,"endTime":468.56,"body":"I need to try something else."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":468.56,"endTime":469.76,"body":"Cause I'm spinning my wheels."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":469.76,"endTime":473.47999999999996,"body":"So I then started what became the Crimson"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":469.76,"endTime":473.47999999999996,"body":"Curtain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":474.44,"endTime":478.92,"body":"And then we worked on it for 3ish years, I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":474.44,"endTime":478.92,"body":"think,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":479.239,"endTime":480.52,"body":"before I started querying."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":481.15999999999997,"endTime":482.68,"body":"And so I started querying,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":483.0,"endTime":484.03999999999996,"body":"let me do the math."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":486.52,"endTime":486.92,"body":"Jan."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":487.32,"endTime":487.88,"body":"February."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":488.03999999999996,"endTime":489.64,"body":"February of 23."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":490.75,"endTime":491.22999999999996,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":491.71,"endTime":495.87,"body":"and then I was out to agents,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":496.43,"endTime":500.67,"body":"and I signed with my agent, Laura Dale,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":501.15,"endTime":502.99,"body":"in May."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":503.55,"endTime":506.27,"body":"And it's all hazy because I was pregnant at"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":503.55,"endTime":506.27,"body":"the time."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":506.99,"endTime":508.67,"body":"So it's all just sort of a blur."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":508.75,"endTime":509.39,"body":"But I was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":509.55,"endTime":515.79,"body":"And then Laura and I did edits on Crimson with"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":509.55,"endTime":515.79,"body":"the goal of having it ready for submission"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":516.29,"endTime":518.29,"body":"when I had my baby."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":519.73,"endTime":522.25,"body":"Cause I was just like a natural, natural"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":519.73,"endTime":522.25,"body":"timeline."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":522.25,"endTime":523.41,"body":"So that was September."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":524.05,"endTime":526.45,"body":"So then she took it out on submission."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":526.45,"endTime":530.53,"body":"In September I got an offer from Amazon"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":530.53,"endTime":535.25,"body":"publishing from their 47 north imprint."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":535.5699999999999,"endTime":538.53,"body":"And then that was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":538.53,"endTime":539.37,"body":"It was really fast."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":539.37,"endTime":543.3399999999999,"body":"It was like two weeks which is not normal to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":539.37,"endTime":543.3399999999999,"body":"get."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":543.5799999999999,"endTime":545.5,"body":"And I also a blur because I was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":545.5,"endTime":546.7,"body":"Had just had my baby."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":547.98,"endTime":553.74,"body":"And then I did edits with Amazon has a weird"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":547.98,"endTime":553.74,"body":"way that they do edits that I can talk about"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":553.74,"endTime":554.06,"body":"later."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":554.3,"endTime":558.78,"body":"But I did edits with them from September to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":558.78,"endTime":559.0999999999999,"body":"January."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":559.3399999999999,"endTime":561.02,"body":"That was like my first passive edits."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":561.02,"endTime":563.06,"body":"And then I think I did like one more passive"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":563.06,"endTime":567.7,"body":"or two more passes of like copy inline edits"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":563.06,"endTime":567.7,"body":"after that and then wrote my second book for"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":567.7,"endTime":567.86,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":567.86,"endTime":573.6800000000001,"body":"I sold the duology so that I have since that's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":567.86,"endTime":573.6800000000001,"body":"probably the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":575.2,"endTime":578.44,"body":"That's the only project I'm planning to do"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":575.2,"endTime":578.44,"body":"with them for now that they're planning to do"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":578.44,"endTime":579.0799999999999,"body":"with me for now."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":579.0799999999999,"endTime":581.5999999999999,"body":"So I have another book on submission wide"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":581.5999999999999,"endTime":582.16,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":583.04,"endTime":585.9200000000001,"body":"It did not sell in two weeks but."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":586.0799999999999,"endTime":587.88,"body":"But yeah, it's out there and we'll see what"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":587.88,"endTime":588.52,"body":"happens with it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":588.52,"endTime":589.12,"body":"So that's."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":589.2,"endTime":589.8399999999999,"body":"And I did."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":589.8399999999999,"endTime":592.72,"body":"I did hire a developmental editor to work with"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":592.72,"endTime":595.2,"body":"me on that one before I went on submission."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":595.5999999999999,"endTime":597.5999999999999,"body":"So that's kind of my quick and dirty."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":598.64,"endTime":602.88,"body":"Yeah. So mine for some people who"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":598.64,"endTime":602.88,"body":"are listeners will know some of this already."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":603.04,"endTime":603.6800000000001,"body":"So my."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":603.9200000000001,"endTime":604.88,"body":"I don't think I do."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":604.88,"endTime":605.3199999999999,"body":"So I'm."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":605.3199999999999,"endTime":605.9200000000001,"body":"Oh, you don't."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":605.9200000000001,"endTime":606.4,"body":"Okay, good."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":606.4,"endTime":609.0,"body":"No, I know like some of the basics, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":609.0,"endTime":609.52,"body":"just from."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":609.52,"endTime":611.3199999999999,"body":"From hearsay and everybody talking."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":611.3199999999999,"endTime":613.04,"body":"But yeah, so I'm curious."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":613.5989999999999,"endTime":614.8,"body":"Yeah, so mine is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":615.28,"endTime":618.8,"body":"So I'm actually on my second agent right now."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":618.88,"endTime":620.72,"body":"So I wrote."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":621.5999999999999,"endTime":624.4,"body":"I wrote two books when I was in high school"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":621.5999999999999,"endTime":624.4,"body":"that will never see the light of day."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":624.4,"endTime":628.13,"body":"They were like, you know, the books you write"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":624.4,"endTime":628.13,"body":"as a teenager and you're like, oh, it's a book"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":628.13,"endTime":629.73,"body":"length work of fiction, but it doesn't."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":629.73,"endTime":630.13,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":630.53,"endTime":633.25,"body":"that's about all the definition of book that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":630.53,"endTime":633.25,"body":"it meets."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":633.49,"endTime":636.53,"body":"So those were, you know, my learning"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":633.49,"endTime":636.53,"body":"experiences."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":638.45,"endTime":643.73,"body":"And then when I was a senior in college, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":638.45,"endTime":643.73,"body":"wrote a historical novel as my senior project."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":643.73,"endTime":647.01,"body":"Cause I went to a small liberal arts college"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":643.73,"endTime":647.01,"body":"where I could convince the history department"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":647.01,"endTime":649.97,"body":"to let me write a historical novel as my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":647.01,"endTime":649.97,"body":"senior thesis."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":650.05,"endTime":650.8499999999999,"body":"That's amazing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":651.24,"endTime":652.12,"body":"Um, so that was."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":652.12,"endTime":652.76,"body":"That was great."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":652.76,"endTime":655.24,"body":"So that was between like 2013 to 2014."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":655.88,"endTime":658.04,"body":"I wrote the first several drafts of that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":658.76,"endTime":665.04,"body":"And then similar to how you kind of had some"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":658.76,"endTime":665.04,"body":"life stuff that was hemming you in or kind of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":665.04,"endTime":666.04,"body":"made a natural deadline."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":666.04,"endTime":668.0799999999999,"body":"I knew I was about to go to grad school right"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":668.0799999999999,"endTime":668.8399999999999,"body":"after college."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":669.3199999999999,"endTime":674.4,"body":"So I queried during like the six weeks or so"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":669.3199999999999,"endTime":674.4,"body":"or like got Ready to query in the 6 weeks or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":674.4,"endTime":677.64,"body":"so between when undergrad ended and when grad"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":674.4,"endTime":677.64,"body":"school started."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":680.0,"endTime":688.04,"body":"And basically was querying the summer and fall"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":680.0,"endTime":688.04,"body":"when grad school was beginning and got an"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":688.04,"endTime":691.04,"body":"agent offer around Thanksgiving of that year."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":691.8399999999999,"endTime":697.0,"body":"And so then I was represented for that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":691.8399999999999,"endTime":697.0,"body":"manuscript for about four years, I think"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":697.0,"endTime":698.72,"body":"between 2014 and 2018."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":699.9200000000001,"endTime":701.04,"body":"Did not sell the book,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":701.9200000000001,"endTime":703.8399999999999,"body":"had trouble finishing anything else."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":704.4000000000001,"endTime":709.5999999999999,"body":"Cause I was like a brand new teacher trying to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":704.4000000000001,"endTime":709.5999999999999,"body":"do my job and write at the same time."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":710.96,"endTime":718.8399999999999,"body":"And so eventually I parted ways with that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":710.96,"endTime":718.8399999999999,"body":"agent and submitted that book around a couple"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":718.8399999999999,"endTime":723.04,"body":"more years while I worked on other things."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":723.2,"endTime":728.8,"body":"And then eventually in I guess it was 2024,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":729.28,"endTime":733.3499999999999,"body":"I started working with Emily's business"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":729.28,"endTime":733.3499999999999,"body":"partner, Rachel as my book coach."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":733.9100000000001,"endTime":738.3900000000001,"body":"And Rachel helped me write a new idea that I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":733.9100000000001,"endTime":738.3900000000001,"body":"had for a queer rom com."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":739.19,"endTime":744.51,"body":"So I think that was the fifth book I wrote,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":739.19,"endTime":744.51,"body":"like, if you include those two quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":744.51,"endTime":745.75,"body":"books I wrote in high school."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":746.55,"endTime":754.71,"body":"And then that one I pitched at a conference in"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":746.55,"endTime":754.71,"body":"May of 2025."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":754.71,"endTime":756.0699999999999,"body":"Yes, May of 2025."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":756.6299999999999,"endTime":760.79,"body":"And I expected that to be the soft launch of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":756.6299999999999,"endTime":760.79,"body":"my pitching process because the manuscript was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":760.79,"endTime":761.75,"body":"with beta readers."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":762.24,"endTime":767.1199999999999,"body":"Um, and similar to how Emily ended up selling"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":762.24,"endTime":767.1199999999999,"body":"her manuscript remarkably quickly,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":767.5999999999999,"endTime":770.24,"body":"that agent process went remarkably quickly."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":770.8799999999999,"endTime":774.0799999999999,"body":"And within like a week or so after that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":770.8799999999999,"endTime":774.0799999999999,"body":"conference, I had a new agent."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":775.04,"endTime":775.9200000000001,"body":"So that was amazing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":776.72,"endTime":781.48,"body":"And then I worked with her on getting the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":776.72,"endTime":781.48,"body":"manuscript, doing a revision on the manuscript"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":781.48,"endTime":781.9200000000001,"body":"in June,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":782.8,"endTime":784.0,"body":"went out on submission,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":784.8799999999999,"endTime":786.24,"body":"have not sold it yet,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":786.56,"endTime":787.9200000000001,"body":"did some more revisions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":788.51,"endTime":791.0699999999999,"body":"It's out on submission again as of the time"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":788.51,"endTime":791.0699999999999,"body":"we're recording."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":791.3900000000001,"endTime":792.19,"body":"Hasn't sold."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":792.75,"endTime":793.1500000000001,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":794.4300000000001,"endTime":795.5899999999999,"body":"So that's, that's where I've been."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":795.5899999999999,"endTime":797.1099999999999,"body":"So I've been on sub a couple of times."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":797.1099999999999,"endTime":800.4300000000001,"body":"I've done, you know, I've had an agent a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":797.1099999999999,"endTime":800.4300000000001,"body":"couple times, but I haven't gotten to the,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":801.47,"endTime":804.03,"body":"the publisher part of the process yet."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":804.6700000000001,"endTime":805.6700000000001,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":805.6700000000001,"endTime":808.03,"body":"And I think it's such a great example of like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":808.51,"endTime":809.19,"body":"in publishing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":809.19,"endTime":810.4300000000001,"body":"It's like, it's so unpredictable."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":810.4300000000001,"endTime":813.71,"body":"Sometimes it happens so fast, sometimes it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":810.4300000000001,"endTime":813.71,"body":"takes a long time."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":814.06,"endTime":814.5,"body":"Like it's just."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":814.5,"endTime":815.8199999999999,"body":"Yeah, it's all over the place."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":815.8199999999999,"endTime":820.5799999999999,"body":"And my agent gave me a whole"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":815.8199999999999,"endTime":820.5799999999999,"body":"spiel before she went on sub the first time."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":820.5799999999999,"endTime":822.0999999999999,"body":"She's like, okay, here's the standard thing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":822.0999999999999,"endTime":823.8599999999999,"body":"You gotta know, like, this could happen in two"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":823.8599999999999,"endTime":825.1800000000001,"body":"weeks, it could happen in two years."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":825.1800000000001,"endTime":826.06,"body":"Like, there's no,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":826.6199999999999,"endTime":827.1800000000001,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":827.98,"endTime":830.8599999999999,"body":"you know, we'll, we'll keep doing as long as"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":827.98,"endTime":830.8599999999999,"body":"we feel like we're gonna do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":830.8599999999999,"endTime":832.46,"body":"But just so you know."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":833.98,"endTime":838.22,"body":"Okay, so now that everyone's like, knows a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":833.98,"endTime":838.22,"body":"little bit about what you know, the basics of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":838.22,"endTime":838.7,"body":"our experience."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":840.06,"endTime":846.46,"body":"I was wondering if you could talk a little bit"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":840.06,"endTime":846.46,"body":"about the sort of emotional and mind shift"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":846.6199999999999,"endTime":853.3399999999999,"body":"transition that went into being an unagented"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":846.6199999999999,"endTime":853.3399999999999,"body":"author to having an agent in your process."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":856.22,"endTime":860.46,"body":"So I love collaboration."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":861.26,"endTime":861.98,"body":"So for me,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":862.3,"endTime":864.6199999999999,"body":"it was really exciting."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":867.03,"endTime":867.6700000000001,"body":"I'm trying to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":867.6700000000001,"endTime":870.0699999999999,"body":"Like I said I was pregnant, so it's all very"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":870.0699999999999,"endTime":870.5899999999999,"body":"hazy."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":870.5899999999999,"endTime":872.0699999999999,"body":"I think there was a lot of, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":872.71,"endTime":877.8299999999999,"body":"for me, there was a lot of anxiety mostly"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":872.71,"endTime":877.8299999999999,"body":"around timeline, but also,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":878.95,"endTime":882.0699999999999,"body":"you know, now you have this other person,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":878.95,"endTime":882.0699999999999,"body":"you're trying to, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":882.79,"endTime":884.5899999999999,"body":"prove you can meet their expectations."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":884.5899999999999,"endTime":885.27,"body":"I think there's just."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":885.27,"endTime":892.1500000000001,"body":"There can be a lot of mindset stuff that goes"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":885.27,"endTime":892.1500000000001,"body":"into it in terms of you having to remember"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":892.1500000000001,"endTime":893.99,"body":"that you are a team, you're working together."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":893.99,"endTime":895.5899999999999,"body":"It's not like you're working for them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":895.5899999999999,"endTime":895.9100000000001,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":895.9100000000001,"endTime":896.3900000000001,"body":"It doesn't."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":896.53,"endTime":897.1700000000001,"body":"It doesn't work that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":897.1700000000001,"endTime":897.73,"body":"It's not."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":898.1299999999999,"endTime":899.5699999999999,"body":"They're not suddenly your boss."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":899.6500000000001,"endTime":900.05,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":900.05,"endTime":902.8499999999999,"body":"It's a. It's a creative vision that you have"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":900.05,"endTime":902.8499999999999,"body":"to work on together."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":903.97,"endTime":904.3699999999999,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":905.5699999999999,"endTime":913.4100000000001,"body":"So that took a little bit of finagling, like"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":905.5699999999999,"endTime":913.4100000000001,"body":"figuring out how to work through what she was"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":913.4100000000001,"endTime":918.9300000000001,"body":"thinking the book could be versus what I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":913.4100000000001,"endTime":918.9300000000001,"body":"wanted the book to be and, like, how to take"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":918.9300000000001,"endTime":921.5699999999999,"body":"her feedback into consideration with,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":921.97,"endTime":923.49,"body":"you know, my vision for the story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":924.29,"endTime":924.81,"body":"It's all."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":924.81,"endTime":926.21,"body":"It can be a lot to balance."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":926.77,"endTime":927.81,"body":"And so I."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":928.5899999999999,"endTime":930.03,"body":"It was a mindset question, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":930.99,"endTime":933.0699999999999,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I feel like mindset wise."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":934.9100000000001,"endTime":939.51,"body":"It was a lot of me gut checking with other"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":934.9100000000001,"endTime":939.51,"body":"writer friends, you know, being like, this is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":939.51,"endTime":940.55,"body":"my vision for the story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":940.55,"endTime":942.1099999999999,"body":"Does this fit my vision of the story?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":942.1099999999999,"endTime":944.6700000000001,"body":"Just sort of like soundboarding to figure out,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":944.99,"endTime":951.19,"body":"to, like, work through that anxiety, that,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":944.99,"endTime":951.19,"body":"like, external validation desire to figure"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":951.19,"endTime":954.51,"body":"out, like, what was best for the story and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":951.19,"endTime":954.51,"body":"what was best for my vision of the story,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":954.51,"endTime":956.19,"body":"which ultimately is what we were selling."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":956.5,"endTime":959.1800000000001,"body":"Um, and for the most part, we were pretty"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":956.5,"endTime":959.1800000000001,"body":"aligned."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":959.1800000000001,"endTime":962.4200000000001,"body":"So I don't say that as if to say, like, she"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":959.1800000000001,"endTime":962.4200000000001,"body":"had this other vision for my story, but I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":962.4200000000001,"endTime":964.98,"body":"think in any sort of feedback, there's."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":965.6199999999999,"endTime":968.9000000000001,"body":"There's often the feedback that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":970.5,"endTime":974.4200000000001,"body":"There's like the feedback behind the feedback"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":970.5,"endTime":974.4200000000001,"body":"is how I talk about it with my critique"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":974.4200000000001,"endTime":974.74,"body":"partners."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":974.74,"endTime":977.1400000000001,"body":"It's like, okay, this is what Laura said and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":977.1400000000001,"endTime":978.1800000000001,"body":"here are her suggestions."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":978.1800000000001,"endTime":979.5799999999999,"body":"What's the feedback behind the feedback?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":979.5799999999999,"endTime":980.1800000000001,"body":"What's really."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":980.26,"endTime":983.54,"body":"What's really the problem and what's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":980.26,"endTime":983.54,"body":"really not aligning?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":983.54,"endTime":986.0899999999999,"body":"And then is her solution the best for,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":986.6500000000001,"endTime":989.9300000000001,"body":"you know, fixing that in a way that aligns"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":986.6500000000001,"endTime":989.9300000000001,"body":"with my vision, or is there something else to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":989.9300000000001,"endTime":992.45,"body":"do with it?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":989.9300000000001,"endTime":992.45,"body":"And oftentimes I needed other brains to help"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":992.45,"endTime":993.0899999999999,"body":"me work through that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":993.0899999999999,"endTime":995.9300000000001,"body":"Just because my anxiety was all, all up in"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":993.0899999999999,"endTime":995.9300000000001,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":996.97,"endTime":999.9300000000001,"body":"Yeah, I like that idea of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":996.97,"endTime":999.9300000000001,"body":"feedback behind the feedback because,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1002.0899999999999,"endTime":1006.3299999999999,"body":"you know, so I, I, I think one of the things"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1002.0899999999999,"endTime":1006.3299999999999,"body":"that can sometimes be a little tricky about"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1006.5699999999999,"endTime":1009.6099999999999,"body":"any kind of feedback, whether it's feedback"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1006.5699999999999,"endTime":1009.6099999999999,"body":"from an agent, editor,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1010.6500000000001,"endTime":1012.6500000000001,"body":"or feedback from your critique partners,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1012.97,"endTime":1019.4300000000001,"body":"is that I feel like a real, like, really"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1012.97,"endTime":1019.4300000000001,"body":"useful feedback frequently asks questions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1019.4300000000001,"endTime":1024.47,"body":"And I know that's what a lot of coaches like"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1019.4300000000001,"endTime":1024.47,"body":"us will do is we'll say, this is how I'm"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1024.47,"endTime":1026.11,"body":"feeling when I read this."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1026.11,"endTime":1028.59,"body":"But, you know, is this what you meant?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1026.11,"endTime":1028.59,"body":"Or like, what are you trying to do?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1029.6299999999999,"endTime":1032.11,"body":"Things that will sort of guide a writer"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1029.6299999999999,"endTime":1032.11,"body":"towards,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1034.03,"endTime":1035.31,"body":"towards their vision."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1035.79,"endTime":1041.03,"body":"But most of the feedback that's being offered"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1035.79,"endTime":1041.03,"body":"is not by trained book coaches who are asking"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1041.03,"endTime":1041.6299999999999,"body":"questions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1041.71,"endTime":1043.51,"body":"It's by people who are going to give you, who"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1043.51,"endTime":1045.03,"body":"are going to say, this isn't working for me."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1045.03,"endTime":1047.45,"body":"Here's a prescription description of how I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1045.03,"endTime":1047.45,"body":"think you should fix it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1048.97,"endTime":1054.65,"body":"And I think that you're right, that in terms"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1048.97,"endTime":1054.65,"body":"of aligning with your own vision, there is"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1055.05,"endTime":1060.57,"body":"this need to parse the feedback you're getting"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1055.05,"endTime":1060.57,"body":"and figure out what it's actually saying."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1060.73,"endTime":1064.33,"body":"So on my most recent revision on my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1060.73,"endTime":1064.33,"body":"manuscript,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1065.69,"endTime":1070.41,"body":"my agent and I didn't have a ton of editor"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1065.69,"endTime":1070.41,"body":"feedback to go off of,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1071.49,"endTime":1073.89,"body":"you know, because most of the rejections were"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1071.49,"endTime":1073.89,"body":"the very nice, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1074.21,"endTime":1077.17,"body":"love this, not gonna buy it, you know, kind of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1074.21,"endTime":1077.17,"body":"rejection."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1078.77,"endTime":1082.85,"body":"And then kind of reading between the lines of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1078.77,"endTime":1082.85,"body":"the other rejections,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1084.21,"endTime":1088.65,"body":"I sort of realized that it was like, oh, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1084.21,"endTime":1088.65,"body":"problem that I think most people are reacting"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1088.65,"endTime":1092.57,"body":"to is that this is this book's kind of on the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1088.65,"endTime":1092.57,"body":"long side, and there's something off with the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1092.57,"endTime":1093.01,"body":"pacing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1094.21,"endTime":1096.85,"body":"And so then my agents, I had to be like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1094.21,"endTime":1096.85,"body":"okay, yeah, we,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1097.28,"endTime":1099.52,"body":"we can see how what people are saying,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1100.4,"endTime":1104.08,"body":"like what the editors were saying wasn't"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1100.4,"endTime":1104.08,"body":"necessarily the solution, but that was the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1104.08,"endTime":1106.16,"body":"problem they were all identifying."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1107.04,"endTime":1112.48,"body":"And then she and I were able to identify a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1107.04,"endTime":1112.48,"body":"solution that we both felt good about to that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1117.0,"body":"problem that wasn't like an editor who's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1117.0,"body":"rejecting something isn't going to come up"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1118.48,"body":"with a super nuanced,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1119.36,"endTime":1120.32,"body":"subtle fix."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1120.32,"endTime":1122.32,"body":"And that's what we needed in that situation."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1122.84,"endTime":1123.16,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1124.12,"endTime":1130.32,"body":"yeah, I think that's such a good point, which"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1124.12,"endTime":1130.32,"body":"is that agents are not like when, when you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1130.32,"endTime":1131.8,"body":"think about what an agent does,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1132.52,"endTime":1135.56,"body":"there's a very specific skill set you want"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1132.52,"endTime":1135.56,"body":"your agent to have."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1135.64,"endTime":1136.04,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1136.2,"endTime":1138.44,"body":"And it's to go out there and sell your book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1140.04,"endTime":1143.8,"body":"And so in terms of editorial skills, I think"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1140.04,"endTime":1143.8,"body":"agents,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1144.2,"endTime":1147.36,"body":"they just run the gamut in terms of, like, you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1144.2,"endTime":1147.36,"body":"know, There are some who are really, really"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1147.36,"endTime":1153.16,"body":"good at editing, and there are some who don't"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1147.36,"endTime":1153.16,"body":"love it, you know, and just so they're looking"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1153.16,"endTime":1153.48,"body":"for."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1153.64,"endTime":1155.32,"body":"For cleaner manuscripts, maybe,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1156.04,"endTime":1158.76,"body":"or suggesting outside help even."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1159.08,"endTime":1159.8799999999999,"body":"And so,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1160.44,"endTime":1163.32,"body":"you know, depending on who you sign with and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1160.44,"endTime":1163.32,"body":"depending on who your agent is,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1164.68,"endTime":1168.0,"body":"there's their skill sets in terms of the types"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1164.68,"endTime":1168.0,"body":"of feedback they're going to be able to give"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1168.0,"endTime":1170.04,"body":"you might vary."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1170.52,"endTime":1177.0,"body":"And it's actually true, too, for editors in"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1170.52,"endTime":1177.0,"body":"house, because oftentimes the skill set that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1177.0,"endTime":1181.24,"body":"they have is to find really good marketable"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1177.0,"endTime":1181.24,"body":"pitches, to work with teams within the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1182.09,"endTime":1185.61,"body":"publishing house to, like, push your book and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1182.09,"endTime":1185.61,"body":"to get it sold and all that, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1185.61,"endTime":1186.77,"body":"Those are like social skills."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1186.77,"endTime":1187.37,"body":"Those are different."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1187.69,"endTime":1191.93,"body":"And so even editors have varying levels of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1187.69,"endTime":1191.93,"body":"actual editing skills."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1192.17,"endTime":1195.89,"body":"And so there is a certain level of, like, you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1192.17,"endTime":1195.89,"body":"needing to be able to parse through feedback"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1195.89,"endTime":1196.89,"body":"that might not be like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1196.97,"endTime":1199.21,"body":"Like you said, like, book coach level,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1200.97,"endTime":1204.25,"body":"clear and useful feedback as to what is and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1200.97,"endTime":1204.25,"body":"isn't working."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1204.65,"endTime":1206.65,"body":"The other thing that that makes me think of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1204.65,"endTime":1206.65,"body":"is,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1207.939,"endTime":1210.019,"body":"and when I work with Laura,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1210.419,"endTime":1214.179,"body":"to my agent, to get something sold,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1214.499,"endTime":1215.8590000000002,"body":"it's a very different approach."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1215.8590000000002,"endTime":1217.6190000000001,"body":"Like, she has a very different approach from"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1217.8590000000002,"endTime":1221.299,"body":"an editor who's trying to get me a book"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1217.8590000000002,"endTime":1221.299,"body":"that's, like, ready for."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1221.459,"endTime":1222.499,"body":"To go on the shelf."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1222.978,"endTime":1225.699,"body":"Because those are two very different"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1222.978,"endTime":1225.699,"body":"objectives."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1225.939,"endTime":1230.8590000000002,"body":"And it used to drive me nuts to think about"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1225.939,"endTime":1230.8590000000002,"body":"that because I was like, how can those be"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1230.8590000000002,"endTime":1231.1390000000001,"body":"different?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1231.6190000000001,"endTime":1233.939,"body":"Don't they just want a perfect book that's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1231.6190000000001,"endTime":1233.939,"body":"ready for the shelf?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1234.099,"endTime":1235.459,"body":"But that's not how they're thinking."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1235.459,"endTime":1237.45,"body":"Like, what they're thinking when you're"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1237.45,"endTime":1240.77,"body":"working with an agent is they're thinking, how"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1237.45,"endTime":1240.77,"body":"do I sell this to an editor?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1240.8500000000001,"endTime":1243.53,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1240.8500000000001,"endTime":1243.53,"body":"How do I make it so that the premise is super"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1243.53,"endTime":1245.89,"body":"clear?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1243.53,"endTime":1245.89,"body":"How do I make it so it feels really pacey, how"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1245.89,"endTime":1250.45,"body":"do I make it so it's, you know, checking all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1245.89,"endTime":1250.45,"body":"the boxes that an editor is looking for, which"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1250.45,"endTime":1253.3300000000002,"body":"aren't necessarily the same boxes that a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1250.45,"endTime":1253.3300000000002,"body":"reader's looking for."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1253.49,"endTime":1258.05,"body":"And so when Lauren and I were working on"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1253.49,"endTime":1258.05,"body":"behind the Crimson Curtain,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1258.77,"endTime":1261.0900000000001,"body":"we ended up cutting it down."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1261.3300000000002,"endTime":1264.81,"body":"It was like 135, and she wanted it under a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1264.81,"endTime":1265.0900000000001,"body":"hundred."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1266.26,"endTime":1268.82,"body":"So I got it to under a hundred thousand words,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1269.54,"endTime":1272.3,"body":"which, like, crazily sped up the pacing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1272.3,"endTime":1272.5800000000002,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1272.9,"endTime":1274.1000000000001,"body":"you know, the world building,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1274.42,"endTime":1274.98,"body":"I think,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1276.02,"endTime":1276.98,"body":"suffered from that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1277.38,"endTime":1279.02,"body":"But the point was not the world."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1279.02,"endTime":1280.78,"body":"The point was to get people to turn pages and,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1280.78,"endTime":1281.94,"body":"like, get to the end, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1282.5800000000002,"endTime":1283.66,"body":"And so we focused on that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1283.66,"endTime":1285.22,"body":"And then we also made it really spicy."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1286.74,"endTime":1291.14,"body":"And both of those things I reversed when I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1286.74,"endTime":1291.14,"body":"worked with my editor to actually get it on"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1291.14,"endTime":1291.6200000000001,"body":"the shelf."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1291.95,"endTime":1292.99,"body":"Which is like so crazy."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1292.99,"endTime":1294.95,"body":"Like, like, we started having conversations"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1294.95,"endTime":1298.1100000000001,"body":"with my editors and they were like, oh, it's a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1294.95,"endTime":1298.1100000000001,"body":"little too spicy for the market that we want"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1298.1100000000001,"endTime":1298.5900000000001,"body":"to push it to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1298.5900000000001,"endTime":1299.8700000000001,"body":"Can we pull back on the spice?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1300.27,"endTime":1302.63,"body":"And we need way more world building and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1300.27,"endTime":1302.63,"body":"context because."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1302.63,"endTime":1304.23,"body":"So a lot of this stuff doesn't make any sense."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1304.23,"endTime":1305.63,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, that's because I cut it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1305.63,"endTime":1307.99,"body":"down to 100k, but that's what got it sold."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1307.99,"endTime":1309.99,"body":"Right. So I think there's."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1309.99,"endTime":1311.67,"body":"You kind of have to be asking yourself, well,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1311.67,"endTime":1315.23,"body":"who is the person giving me feedback and what"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1311.67,"endTime":1315.23,"body":"are their objectives and what is the objective"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1315.23,"endTime":1316.8700000000001,"body":"in the publishing process right now?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1316.8700000000001,"endTime":1322.17,"body":"And how do I filter what I want my vision to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1316.8700000000001,"endTime":1322.17,"body":"be for the story right within that context?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1322.17,"endTime":1323.05,"body":"Which for me was hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1323.05,"endTime":1325.6100000000001,"body":"I was like, I don't want to let go of all this"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1325.6100000000001,"endTime":1329.97,"body":"world building and I don't necessarily want it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1325.6100000000001,"endTime":1329.97,"body":"to be quite that spicy, but that's fine."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1329.97,"endTime":1331.13,"body":"Like, it didn't bother me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1331.13,"endTime":1332.53,"body":"I just was like, I don't know if that's right"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1332.53,"endTime":1333.17,"body":"for the audience."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1333.17,"endTime":1335.17,"body":"And so we ended up, you know, tweaking that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1335.17,"endTime":1336.73,"body":"when we had audience in mind."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1336.81,"endTime":1337.21,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1337.45,"endTime":1337.93,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1338.25,"endTime":1338.6100000000001,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1338.6100000000001,"endTime":1340.8500000000001,"body":"And something else I think is an undercurrent"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1340.8500000000001,"endTime":1346.46,"body":"of several of the things you've said is I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1340.8500000000001,"endTime":1346.46,"body":"remember this was a really important"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1346.6200000000001,"endTime":1350.22,"body":"revelation for me that I did not have until"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1346.6200000000001,"endTime":1350.22,"body":"after."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1350.7,"endTime":1353.18,"body":"Until I was in between agent number one and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1350.7,"endTime":1353.18,"body":"agent number two."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1353.9,"endTime":1360.22,"body":"So when I worked with my first agent, I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1353.9,"endTime":1360.22,"body":"very, very young again, just out of college."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1360.38,"endTime":1361.7,"body":"He was not that much older."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1361.7,"endTime":1363.42,"body":"He was maybe a couple years older than me."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1363.74,"endTime":1366.3,"body":"So neither of us really knew that much about"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1363.74,"endTime":1366.3,"body":"what we were doing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1366.38,"endTime":1371.1000000000001,"body":"Neither of us knew that much about the market"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1366.38,"endTime":1371.1000000000001,"body":"and how it worked and how publishing worked."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1372.82,"endTime":1379.3,"body":"And I think that it's very easy if you are a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1372.82,"endTime":1379.3,"body":"writer who is pursuing traditional publishing"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1379.46,"endTime":1380.3400000000001,"body":"as a pathway."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1381.54,"endTime":1386.26,"body":"It's very easy to sort of see agents as like"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1381.54,"endTime":1386.26,"body":"the anointers of."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1386.66,"endTime":1392.14,"body":"You know, that once someone chooses you that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1386.66,"endTime":1392.14,"body":"you finally have like that external validation"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1392.14,"endTime":1394.3400000000001,"body":"of like, I am good enough, I have done enough,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1394.74,"endTime":1395.46,"body":"you know, and that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1395.46,"endTime":1397.7,"body":"That in some ways becomes the goal."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1398.25,"endTime":1402.65,"body":"And I think what is lost in that, and it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1398.25,"endTime":1402.65,"body":"easy to see why you would feel that way if"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1402.65,"endTime":1406.41,"body":"you've been querying, especially for like a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1402.65,"endTime":1406.41,"body":"long time and somebody finally makes you an"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1406.41,"endTime":1406.65,"body":"offer."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1409.21,"endTime":1413.6100000000001,"body":"And so something that was like, really earth"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1409.21,"endTime":1413.6100000000001,"body":"shattering for me was to be reminded that this"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1413.6100000000001,"endTime":1414.89,"body":"is a business partnership."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1415.6100000000001,"endTime":1417.29,"body":"You know, it is a business decision,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1418.17,"endTime":1422.81,"body":"just like whether you traditional hybrid self"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1418.17,"endTime":1422.81,"body":"publish is a business decision."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1424.25,"endTime":1431.43,"body":"And so one of the things that's going to be"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1424.25,"endTime":1431.43,"body":"important in who you choose to query to when"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1431.43,"endTime":1433.71,"body":"you interview an agent, decide if you're going"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1431.43,"endTime":1433.71,"body":"to work with them,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1434.67,"endTime":1441.67,"body":"and then once you actually start working with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1434.67,"endTime":1441.67,"body":"them, is to kind of evaluate is this"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1441.67,"endTime":1449.31,"body":"relationship going to work for me as an artist"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1441.67,"endTime":1449.31,"body":"and as a person who has this business of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1449.39,"endTime":1450.3500000000001,"body":"writing books,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1450.91,"endTime":1454.79,"body":"is this person helping me to meet my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1450.91,"endTime":1454.79,"body":"objectives?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1456.15,"endTime":1459.1100000000001,"body":"And then, like you said to remember that they"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1456.15,"endTime":1459.1100000000001,"body":"work for you, not the other way around."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1459.27,"endTime":1460.39,"body":"You know, you're not."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1460.55,"endTime":1462.79,"body":"You know, you want to impress them because"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1462.79,"endTime":1469.71,"body":"that's so much of what you have to do to get"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1462.79,"endTime":1469.71,"body":"in your foot in the door and, like, get the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1469.71,"endTime":1470.3500000000001,"body":"agent is you,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1470.3500000000001,"endTime":1470.8700000000001,"body":"like, are."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1471.19,"endTime":1474.31,"body":"You have to be kind of impressive or, you"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1471.19,"endTime":1474.31,"body":"know, that's what it feels like."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1475.75,"endTime":1477.39,"body":"And so then that pressure continues."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1477.39,"endTime":1480.46,"body":"Like you said, once you have,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1481.02,"endTime":1484.74,"body":"you know, have the representation, you're"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1481.02,"endTime":1484.74,"body":"like, oh, I want to show you that I'm so good."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1484.74,"endTime":1488.3,"body":"And, like, I don't want to show you any of,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1484.74,"endTime":1488.3,"body":"like, my vulnerabilities or,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1489.26,"endTime":1490.22,"body":"you know, whatever."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1490.3,"endTime":1492.3,"body":"And so I think then what ends up happening is"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1493.82,"endTime":1498.5,"body":"you can have a situation where writers don't"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1493.82,"endTime":1498.5,"body":"feel like they don't want to bother their"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1498.5,"endTime":1498.94,"body":"agent."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1499.5800000000002,"endTime":1500.14,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1500.46,"endTime":1503.02,"body":"So it's like, okay, my agent has"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1500.46,"endTime":1503.02,"body":"given me an edit letter."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1503.26,"endTime":1505.18,"body":"I gotta go figure it out by myself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1505.94,"endTime":1506.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1507.38,"endTime":1508.9,"body":"Personally, that has not been my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1507.38,"endTime":1508.9,"body":"experience."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1509.46,"endTime":1517.38,"body":"My agent is very open to, when she gives me an"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1509.46,"endTime":1517.38,"body":"edit letter to have a conversation about or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1517.38,"endTime":1517.8600000000001,"body":"like, when."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1518.1000000000001,"endTime":1519.9,"body":"The most recent round of revisions I did for"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1519.9,"endTime":1520.18,"body":"her,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1521.06,"endTime":1524.06,"body":"she and I talked a little bit about what we"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1521.06,"endTime":1524.06,"body":"thought the approach was going to be."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1524.06,"endTime":1525.3400000000001,"body":"I reread the manuscript."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1525.3400000000001,"endTime":1527.22,"body":"I came back to her with a list of changes I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1527.22,"endTime":1527.94,"body":"was thinking about."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1528.18,"endTime":1531.95,"body":"We had a conversation about it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1531.95,"endTime":1533.31,"body":"She made some other suggestions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1533.31,"endTime":1534.5900000000001,"body":"I did the revisions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1534.5900000000001,"endTime":1536.19,"body":"She came back with a couple of notes."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1536.3500000000001,"endTime":1538.51,"body":"One of the notes I wasn't really sure what to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1536.3500000000001,"endTime":1538.51,"body":"do about."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1538.5900000000001,"endTime":1540.91,"body":"So we got back on the phone and we talked"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1538.5900000000001,"endTime":1540.91,"body":"about it again."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1541.31,"endTime":1543.31,"body":"And then we had a manuscript we were both"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1541.31,"endTime":1543.31,"body":"happy with."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1544.43,"endTime":1544.99,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1545.39,"endTime":1546.19,"body":"Yeah, that's."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1546.19,"endTime":1548.8300000000002,"body":"That's pretty close to my experience too."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1548.8300000000002,"endTime":1550.27,"body":"Maybe a little less back and forth."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1550.27,"endTime":1551.55,"body":"But with."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1551.95,"endTime":1555.67,"body":"With Laura, it's been very like, she."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1555.67,"endTime":1557.8300000000002,"body":"She'll give me her feedback in writing, and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1557.8300000000002,"endTime":1559.79,"body":"then I usually take a couple of days to, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1560.15,"endTime":1563.75,"body":"process it, like I said earlier with critique"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1560.15,"endTime":1563.75,"body":"partners and stuff, to try to figure out,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1564.07,"endTime":1565.67,"body":"okay, what do I think the feedback,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1566.31,"endTime":1569.27,"body":"you know, if it's not clear, what do I think"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1566.31,"endTime":1569.27,"body":"the feedback beneath the feedback is?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1569.27,"endTime":1573.8700000000001,"body":"If I don't like one of her suggestions, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1569.27,"endTime":1573.8700000000001,"body":"I come up with another one."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1573.8700000000001,"endTime":1577.67,"body":"And so by the time we get on the phone, I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1573.8700000000001,"endTime":1577.67,"body":"like, okay, here's what I think you're saying."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1578.15,"endTime":1579.27,"body":"Is that what you're saying?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1579.8300000000002,"endTime":1583.75,"body":"And then once we kind of have that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1579.8300000000002,"endTime":1583.75,"body":"conversation, and usually it is, then I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1583.75,"endTime":1585.75,"body":"like, okay, well, here are the solutions that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1583.75,"endTime":1585.75,"body":"I have."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1585.75,"endTime":1587.23,"body":"The ones that match what you suggested."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1587.23,"endTime":1587.38,"body":"The."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1587.69,"endTime":1590.6100000000001,"body":"The ones that maybe are new to the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1587.69,"endTime":1590.6100000000001,"body":"conversation."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1590.6100000000001,"endTime":1593.13,"body":"And then usually she's kind of like, great,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1590.6100000000001,"endTime":1593.13,"body":"sounds good."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1593.13,"endTime":1595.8500000000001,"body":"Unless there's, you know, I've misinterpreted"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1593.13,"endTime":1595.8500000000001,"body":"something that she said."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1597.53,"endTime":1598.17,"body":"And then we."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1598.17,"endTime":1601.21,"body":"We do the revisions, and it goes back to her"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1601.21,"endTime":1603.45,"body":"and goes back and forth like that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1604.3300000000002,"endTime":1605.29,"body":"So, yeah, pretty similar."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1606.97,"endTime":1608.01,"body":"So just to kind of, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1611.21,"body":"recap for the audience as they're following"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1611.21,"body":"along,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1611.6100000000001,"endTime":1612.05,"body":"you know."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1612.05,"endTime":1614.25,"body":"So if you are in the audience and you're like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1614.25,"endTime":1615.77,"body":"great, I just got my first edit letter."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1615.77,"endTime":1616.73,"body":"I don't really know what to do with."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1618.25,"endTime":1623.21,"body":"Sounds like. Both Emily and I have an early"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1618.25,"endTime":1623.21,"body":"step of taking some time to process what the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1623.21,"endTime":1624.13,"body":"edit letter says."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1625.81,"endTime":1631.0900000000001,"body":"And that processing might be processing by"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1625.81,"endTime":1631.0900000000001,"body":"yourself and think, you know, kind of figuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1631.0900000000001,"endTime":1631.41,"body":"out,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1632.21,"endTime":1634.3700000000001,"body":"you know, what it says and how you feel about"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1632.21,"endTime":1634.3700000000001,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1634.3700000000001,"endTime":1639.25,"body":"It might be talking to critique partners and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1634.3700000000001,"endTime":1639.25,"body":"getting them to help you parse the feedback."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1641.13,"endTime":1649.45,"body":"And it may also include actually talking to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1641.13,"endTime":1649.45,"body":"your agent, asking for clarity about what it"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1649.45,"endTime":1650.17,"body":"is they've said."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1651.69,"endTime":1655.3700000000001,"body":"And then the next step, I'm thinking, is"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1651.69,"endTime":1655.3700000000001,"body":"actually to make a plan."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1655.6100000000001,"endTime":1656.01,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1656.57,"endTime":1661.73,"body":"So how do you approach planning out a revision"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1656.57,"endTime":1661.73,"body":"when you've been given an edit letter or some"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1661.73,"endTime":1662.25,"body":"feedback?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1663.77,"endTime":1664.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1665.38,"endTime":1669.78,"body":"So usually what I'll do is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1670.66,"endTime":1674.18,"body":"So before I even get the edit letter, I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1670.66,"endTime":1674.18,"body":"usually write down all the things that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1675.14,"endTime":1677.38,"body":"That, like, I want to do with it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1678.18,"endTime":1679.8600000000001,"body":"So often I'll reread it or."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1680.42,"endTime":1684.26,"body":"Or just take notes from when I finished it of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1680.42,"endTime":1684.26,"body":"things I know that I need to go back and fix."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1685.94,"endTime":1686.5,"body":"And then."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1686.5,"endTime":1688.38,"body":"So I'll start with sort of that list of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1688.38,"endTime":1690.1000000000001,"body":"things, and then I'll take."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1692.01,"endTime":1695.77,"body":"Take the edit letter and, like, break it into"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1692.01,"endTime":1695.77,"body":"pieces."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1696.17,"endTime":1698.93,"body":"So I'm like, okay, this character needs work"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1696.17,"endTime":1698.93,"body":"in this way."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1698.93,"endTime":1700.3700000000001,"body":"And then I kind of, like, organize it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1700.3700000000001,"endTime":1702.29,"body":"So I take the pieces of the letter, and I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1702.29,"endTime":1703.41,"body":"organize it with what I've got."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1703.41,"endTime":1706.57,"body":"And so I make these, like, big buckets, and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1703.41,"endTime":1706.57,"body":"then I kind of nest everything."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1706.57,"endTime":1709.53,"body":"And I'm like, okay, this is this, you know, my"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1706.57,"endTime":1709.53,"body":"main character's arc."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1709.53,"endTime":1711.8500000000001,"body":"And all of this feedback fits under the arc."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1712.89,"endTime":1715.17,"body":"And so that will include, like, comments and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1712.89,"endTime":1715.17,"body":"stuff."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1715.17,"endTime":1718.49,"body":"So if I. If my agent does inline comments."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1719.53,"endTime":1723.21,"body":"So inside the document, I'll be scrolling"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1719.53,"endTime":1723.21,"body":"through, and on chapter 15, she'll be like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1723.21,"endTime":1724.17,"body":"well, here is an issue."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1724.41,"endTime":1726.8500000000001,"body":"And it feels isolated, but I'll nest it under"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1726.8500000000001,"endTime":1728.49,"body":"something that it relates to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1728.81,"endTime":1733.53,"body":"So I kind of compile everything and usually I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1728.81,"endTime":1733.53,"body":"end up with not as many buckets as I initially"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1733.53,"endTime":1734.57,"body":"think I'm going to have."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1734.57,"endTime":1736.13,"body":"Like, when you first read the letter, it can"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1736.13,"endTime":1738.57,"body":"feel like, oh, there's 80 million things that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1736.13,"endTime":1738.57,"body":"are wrong with this book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1738.65,"endTime":1743.3,"body":"But in reality it generally comes back to,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1738.65,"endTime":1743.3,"body":"okay, there's like these four or five buckets,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1743.38,"endTime":1747.78,"body":"like three of them might be major that I need"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1743.38,"endTime":1747.78,"body":"to address."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1747.94,"endTime":1754.74,"body":"And then I'll start to think up solutions from"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1747.94,"endTime":1754.74,"body":"there and I'll come up with broad swath"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1754.82,"endTime":1756.7,"body":"solutions and then I'll start to figure out,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1756.7,"endTime":1759.18,"body":"okay, in each act, how can I. How could I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1756.7,"endTime":1759.18,"body":"revise that?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1759.18,"endTime":1759.66,"body":"And I'll."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1759.66,"endTime":1760.5800000000002,"body":"I'll map it out from there."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1760.5800000000002,"endTime":1762.14,"body":"But I'm a plotter, so that's like"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1762.14,"endTime":1763.46,"body":"normally how my brain works."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1764.3400000000001,"endTime":1765.14,"body":"But what about you?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1765.14,"endTime":1769.07,"body":"How do you tackle it so"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1765.14,"endTime":1769.07,"body":"interestingly,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1769.39,"endTime":1773.71,"body":"I would not consider myself really a plotter,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1769.39,"endTime":1773.71,"body":"but I do think similar to you, you prefer"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1773.71,"endTime":1777.31,"body":"revising over drafting, right?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1773.71,"endTime":1777.31,"body":"Yes, yes, I'm the same way."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1777.31,"endTime":1779.51,"body":"So caveat to all of you listening."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1779.51,"endTime":1781.63,"body":"If you're like a drafter at heart and you hate"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1779.51,"endTime":1781.63,"body":"revising,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1782.75,"endTime":1783.91,"body":"this still might not be helpful."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1783.91,"endTime":1786.19,"body":"You still might always hate having to revise"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1786.43,"endTime":1787.79,"body":"based on edit letters."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1788.75,"endTime":1791.63,"body":"But yeah, so the way I approach it, it's not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1788.75,"endTime":1791.63,"body":"totally dissimilar,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1792.75,"endTime":1794.27,"body":"but I think I don't usually,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1795.0,"endTime":1799.16,"body":"I don't necessarily implement the feedback"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1795.0,"endTime":1799.16,"body":"chronologically, like act by act,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1800.04,"endTime":1801.0800000000002,"body":"if that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1801.32,"endTime":1804.2,"body":"So what I kind of end up doing is I'll."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1808.8400000000001,"body":"And this is actually very similar to what I do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1808.8400000000001,"body":"when I have beta reader feedback too."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1809.88,"endTime":1811.72,"body":"And I kind of like compile it together."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1813.32,"endTime":1819.0800000000002,"body":"So I'll look at, okay, here are the trends or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1813.32,"endTime":1819.0800000000002,"body":"the things I need to change,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1821.4,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"and I will create, like you said, kind of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1821.4,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"buckets of thematically related or like"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1828.16,"endTime":1829.24,"body":"interrelated things."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1829.72,"endTime":1832.64,"body":"Before I even get to that point, I kind of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1829.72,"endTime":1832.64,"body":"have to figure out the fixes, right?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1832.64,"endTime":1837.72,"body":"So it's like you take some time to process the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1832.64,"endTime":1837.72,"body":"feedback and part of that I think is figuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1837.72,"endTime":1841.16,"body":"out like what the fixes are, like what the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1837.72,"endTime":1841.16,"body":"changes are."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1842.6000000000001,"endTime":1845.8,"body":"Because I don't know that I can necessarily do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1842.6000000000001,"endTime":1845.8,"body":"the sorting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1846.97,"endTime":1848.49,"body":"I might maybe go back and forth."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1848.49,"endTime":1850.01,"body":"My brain's very non linear,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1850.65,"endTime":1854.8500000000001,"body":"which is why plotting is so hard for me, is"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1850.65,"endTime":1854.8500000000001,"body":"that I have to kind of go back and forth"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1854.8500000000001,"endTime":1856.89,"body":"between various steps,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1858.17,"endTime":1861.77,"body":"but I kind of will go back and forth between"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1858.17,"endTime":1861.77,"body":"like, okay, I know that there's this"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1861.77,"endTime":1862.49,"body":"overarching,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1864.65,"endTime":1866.3300000000002,"body":"so I'LL give an example."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1866.3300000000002,"endTime":1868.89,"body":"In my book, there's this pair of siblings that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1869.05,"endTime":1871.6100000000001,"body":"are switching places, and so they get."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1871.6100000000001,"endTime":1873.3700000000001,"body":"The whole premise is that they get confused"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1873.3700000000001,"endTime":1874.0900000000001,"body":"for each other."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1875.8300000000002,"endTime":1883.1100000000001,"body":"And so one of the big pieces of feedback that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1875.8300000000002,"endTime":1883.1100000000001,"body":"I had was about increasing the hijinks,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1883.51,"endTime":1883.8300000000002,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1883.8300000000002,"endTime":1885.79,"body":"And the chaos of these two people being"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1885.79,"endTime":1886.79,"body":"confused for each other."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1887.5900000000001,"endTime":1892.55,"body":"And then I had this other character whose role"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1887.5900000000001,"endTime":1892.55,"body":"in the plot was not super clear and needed to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1892.55,"endTime":1893.99,"body":"be clarified a little more."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1894.31,"endTime":1900.8700000000001,"body":"And it turned out that solving there was a way"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1894.31,"endTime":1900.8700000000001,"body":"to integrate both of those solutions into one"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1900.8700000000001,"endTime":1905.02,"body":"chapter from the perspective of the character"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1900.8700000000001,"endTime":1905.02,"body":"who's, like, part of the plot needed to be"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1905.02,"endTime":1905.46,"body":"beefed out."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1905.46,"endTime":1908.5,"body":"And I could show her mistaking these siblings"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1905.46,"endTime":1908.5,"body":"for each other."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1908.5,"endTime":1908.7,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1908.7,"endTime":1910.18,"body":"And some of the chaos of that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":1911.06,"endTime":1911.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1912.3400000000001,"endTime":1915.6200000000001,"body":"So what I kind of did is I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1912.3400000000001,"endTime":1915.6200000000001,"body":"like, all right, those are the two biggest"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1915.6200000000001,"endTime":1919.94,"body":"issues I need to figure out, right?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1915.6200000000001,"endTime":1919.94,"body":"Is, you know, that's going to touch the most"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1919.94,"endTime":1920.42,"body":"chapters."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1920.42,"endTime":1922.18,"body":"It's going to require the most structural."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1922.26,"endTime":1923.78,"body":"I guess that's the way I approach is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1923.78,"endTime":1927.06,"body":"Is I'll say, okay, what are my structural"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1923.78,"endTime":1927.06,"body":"changes that I got to do?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1927.67,"endTime":1932.23,"body":"And then I'll kind of, like, work my way"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1927.67,"endTime":1932.23,"body":"towards the smaller things."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1934.95,"endTime":1939.71,"body":"And so then once I kind of have those buckets,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1934.95,"endTime":1939.71,"body":"I'll do passes of, like, this is the pass"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1939.71,"endTime":1943.15,"body":"where I'm going to deal with this issue, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1939.71,"endTime":1943.15,"body":"I'll kind of go through the manuscript and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1943.15,"endTime":1946.8700000000001,"body":"deal with that issue or that handful of issues"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1943.15,"endTime":1946.8700000000001,"body":"that are in that bucket,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1947.5900000000001,"endTime":1949.99,"body":"and I might, like, do small fixes along the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1947.5900000000001,"endTime":1949.99,"body":"way,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1952.63,"endTime":1954.5900000000001,"body":"and that's kind of how I'll work my way"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1952.63,"endTime":1954.5900000000001,"body":"towards it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1954.5900000000001,"endTime":1956.94,"body":"I save cuts for the end."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1956.94,"endTime":1957.5800000000002,"body":"Like, once I'm."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1957.5800000000002,"endTime":1960.5,"body":"At once, I'm happy with all the other changes"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1957.5800000000002,"endTime":1960.5,"body":"I've made."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1961.7,"endTime":1962.82,"body":"Unless it's like, a."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1963.38,"endTime":1966.1000000000001,"body":"Specifically, I'm going through this pass to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1963.38,"endTime":1966.1000000000001,"body":"cut things,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1967.14,"endTime":1969.6200000000001,"body":"or, like, I need to pull things out and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1967.14,"endTime":1969.6200000000001,"body":"restructure,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1970.9,"endTime":1972.1000000000001,"body":"and then I might do that first."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1972.3400000000001,"endTime":1974.38,"body":"So I generally try to make myself do the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1974.38,"endTime":1979.6200000000001,"body":"things that are the biggest and the hardest"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1974.38,"endTime":1979.6200000000001,"body":"first and then work my way down towards, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1980.02,"endTime":1980.9,"body":"the smaller issues."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1982.19,"endTime":1983.47,"body":"On my most recent revision,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1985.15,"endTime":1989.79,"body":"I actually did just go through chronologically"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1985.15,"endTime":1989.79,"body":"because I needed breaks in between the big,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1989.79,"endTime":1991.39,"body":"hard things and the smaller."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1992.03,"endTime":1993.55,"body":"Like, I. And I also."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1993.95,"endTime":1997.63,"body":"My wife was recovering from surgery, so I was,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1993.95,"endTime":1997.63,"body":"like, super busy taking care of her."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1999.07,"endTime":2003.23,"body":"And so it was a way to be like, I have no time"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":1999.07,"endTime":2003.23,"body":"for myself, but I can, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2003.71,"endTime":2008.41,"body":"zip through revising some, like, easy chapters"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2003.71,"endTime":2008.41,"body":"during that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2008.41,"endTime":2008.89,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2009.45,"endTime":2010.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2010.41,"endTime":2011.69,"body":"I. That's so interesting."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2011.69,"endTime":2012.6100000000001,"body":"I. So my."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2012.6100000000001,"endTime":2013.45,"body":"I can't do."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2014.57,"endTime":2015.05,"body":"I can."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2015.05,"endTime":2015.6100000000001,"body":"I understand,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2016.0900000000001,"endTime":2016.49,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2018.89,"endTime":2024.8500000000001,"body":"cognitively, I Understand how layer revisions"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2018.89,"endTime":2024.8500000000001,"body":"are useful, but my brain cannot do them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2024.8500000000001,"endTime":2030.29,"body":"I feel like I sort of do them maybe in the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2024.8500000000001,"endTime":2030.29,"body":"plotting process, where I'll start by plotting"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2030.29,"endTime":2033.69,"body":"out the changes I'm gonna make with the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2030.29,"endTime":2033.69,"body":"structural stuff and then plot the little"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2033.69,"endTime":2033.97,"body":"stuff."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2033.97,"endTime":2035.45,"body":"But when I'm actually on the page,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2036.14,"endTime":2036.7,"body":"my brain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2037.66,"endTime":2041.74,"body":"My brain sees, like, all the interconnections"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2037.66,"endTime":2041.74,"body":"between everything."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2042.38,"endTime":2047.06,"body":"And so it's really hard for me to, like, jump"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2042.38,"endTime":2047.06,"body":"to random spots and try to make changes when,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2047.06,"endTime":2047.3400000000001,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2047.74,"endTime":2049.14,"body":"I see everything as dominoes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2049.14,"endTime":2051.22,"body":"I guess maybe that's a better way to explain"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2051.22,"endTime":2051.34,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2051.34,"endTime":2053.1,"body":"So I'm like, I make this tiny world building"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2053.1,"endTime":2057.18,"body":"tweak here, and then it could affect"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2053.1,"endTime":2057.18,"body":"everything else, which is potentially likely,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2057.8199999999997,"endTime":2059.18,"body":"partially an anxiety thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2059.18,"endTime":2061.66,"body":"But I do think it helps because I'll."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2061.66,"endTime":2064.46,"body":"I usually map out more changes than I end up"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2061.66,"endTime":2064.46,"body":"making."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2065.2,"endTime":2065.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2065.44,"endTime":2068.3199999999997,"body":"Because then I get into the chapters"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2065.44,"endTime":2068.3199999999997,"body":"and I find ways to weave."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2068.3199999999997,"endTime":2070.72,"body":"Like, I often will find ways to weave changes"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2068.3199999999997,"endTime":2070.72,"body":"together."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2070.72,"endTime":2072.88,"body":"So I'll do a world building thing change."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2073.04,"endTime":2075.36,"body":"Like, I'll beef up world building while I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2075.36,"endTime":2078.6,"body":"also introducing a character, while I'm also"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2075.36,"endTime":2078.6,"body":"upping the stakes, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2078.6,"endTime":2082.24,"body":"And, like, I can do all that in one chapter,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2078.6,"endTime":2082.24,"body":"but I can't see that till I'm in the book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2082.96,"endTime":2085.44,"body":"And so for me, it's helpful to go"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2082.96,"endTime":2085.44,"body":"chronologically."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2085.44,"endTime":2089.24,"body":"So I've kind of lived through the changes and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2085.44,"endTime":2089.24,"body":"felt the ripple effects of them and can kind"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2089.24,"endTime":2092.3199999999997,"body":"of go through the manuscript that way."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2092.3199999999997,"endTime":2095.56,"body":"And then oftentimes, like I said, I'll skip,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2092.3199999999997,"endTime":2095.56,"body":"like, a third of the changes I thought I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2095.56,"endTime":2096.2,"body":"needed to make."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2096.2,"endTime":2098.48,"body":"Cause I made it very clear, this world"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2098.48,"endTime":2102.44,"body":"building thing in chapter three, I didn't need"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2098.48,"endTime":2102.44,"body":"to do it six more times, you know, but I had"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2102.44,"endTime":2104.6,"body":"mapped out all the places where I could do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2105.3199999999997,"endTime":2108.92,"body":"Yeah. And I think that brings up"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2105.3199999999997,"endTime":2108.92,"body":"another really good point."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2108.92,"endTime":2110.12,"body":"And I have found that too."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2111.0,"endTime":2114.12,"body":"So similar to drafting, like, you know, when"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2111.0,"endTime":2114.12,"body":"you're drafting how,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2115.08,"endTime":2120.41,"body":"like, you can abstractly picture the scene or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2115.08,"endTime":2120.41,"body":"abstractly picture the story, and then you"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2120.41,"endTime":2125.69,"body":"will learn or see so much that you didn't know"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2120.41,"endTime":2125.69,"body":"was gonna happen once you start drafting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2126.0099999999998,"endTime":2130.65,"body":"I do think it's the same with revising, where"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2126.0099999999998,"endTime":2130.65,"body":"you can kind of, like, abstractly have a sense"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2130.65,"endTime":2132.49,"body":"of, like, this is a fix that I think will"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2130.65,"endTime":2132.49,"body":"work."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2132.81,"endTime":2137.81,"body":"And then once you get into the revising,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2132.81,"endTime":2137.81,"body":"either realize, like, either think of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2137.81,"endTime":2144.13,"body":"something better or realize that that fix that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2137.81,"endTime":2144.13,"body":"you thought of can do something that you"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2144.13,"endTime":2145.0099999999998,"body":"didn't realize it could do."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2145.0099999999998,"endTime":2148.5099999999998,"body":"And like you said, you end up not making."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2148.59,"endTime":2152.11,"body":"Not needing to make quite so many changes or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2152.11,"endTime":2155.23,"body":"that things can kind of do double duty in a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2152.11,"endTime":2155.23,"body":"way you didn't anticipate."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2155.95,"endTime":2157.71,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, that's my favorite part."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2157.71,"endTime":2158.99,"body":"I love that part of revising."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2158.99,"endTime":2161.31,"body":"It's like piecing it all together and, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2158.99,"endTime":2161.31,"body":"making it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2161.87,"endTime":2162.43,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2162.43,"endTime":2163.15,"body":"I love the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2163.39,"endTime":2167.11,"body":"Efficiency is not the right word, but the,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2163.39,"endTime":2167.11,"body":"like, the craftiness of, like, trying to weave"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2167.11,"endTime":2168.5099999999998,"body":"things together and layer things together."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2169.15,"endTime":2170.91,"body":"Yeah, it is really satisfying."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2172.11,"endTime":2173.79,"body":"And there's an interesting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2173.79,"endTime":2175.63,"body":"Like, I have an interesting mental conundrum"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2175.63,"endTime":2177.0699999999997,"body":"whenever I'm revising."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2177.15,"endTime":2178.91,"body":"So my most recent revision was super"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2178.91,"endTime":2186.27,"body":"illuminating on myself as a. On my process,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2178.91,"endTime":2186.27,"body":"because that was what made me finally accept"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2186.35,"endTime":2188.99,"body":"that I'm, like, revising more than I like"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2186.35,"endTime":2188.99,"body":"drafting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2189.15,"endTime":2192.5499999999997,"body":"Cause I always thought that I was neutral"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2189.15,"endTime":2192.5499999999997,"body":"about them."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2192.5499999999997,"endTime":2193.23,"body":"Like, I."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2193.87,"endTime":2195.63,"body":"I sort of thought that I was."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2195.79,"endTime":2199.31,"body":"I liked whatever part I was not doing right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2199.31,"endTime":2201.99,"body":"So, like, whenever I felt like I was drafting,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2199.31,"endTime":2201.99,"body":"I wanted to be revising."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2201.99,"endTime":2204.67,"body":"And whenever I was revising, I felt like I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2201.99,"endTime":2204.67,"body":"wanted to be drafting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2204.99,"endTime":2211.39,"body":"But what I realized is that a lot of what I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2204.99,"endTime":2211.39,"body":"thought was revising for most of my career"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2211.39,"endTime":2212.67,"body":"was, in fact, rewriting,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2213.63,"endTime":2217.71,"body":"like, a manuscript that had not worked and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2213.63,"endTime":2217.71,"body":"needed a total page one rewrite, which is not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2217.71,"endTime":2218.99,"body":"the same thing as revising."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2219.5499999999997,"endTime":2220.5099999999998,"body":"That's just drafting."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2220.59,"endTime":2222.23,"body":"It's just another type of drafting where you,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2222.23,"endTime":2223.31,"body":"like, know a little bit more."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2224.73,"endTime":2228.77,"body":"And so then when I, like, truly was in the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2224.73,"endTime":2228.77,"body":"process of revision, like, taking something"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2228.77,"endTime":2234.1699999999996,"body":"that was fully drafted, did not need a page"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2228.77,"endTime":2234.1699999999996,"body":"one rewrite, but just needed changes and, you"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2234.1699999999996,"endTime":2235.29,"body":"know, things like that,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2235.85,"endTime":2238.5699999999997,"body":"and I realized that I loved doing that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2238.97,"endTime":2240.1699999999996,"body":"It was like, oh, this is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2240.249,"endTime":2243.25,"body":"This is why drafting is so hard for me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2243.25,"endTime":2247.85,"body":"Because drafting is not this, but doing"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2243.25,"endTime":2247.85,"body":"it, it didn't realize it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2247.85,"endTime":2248.49,"body":"That's funny."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2248.81,"endTime":2250.0099999999998,"body":"Yeah. So I."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2251.3999999999996,"endTime":2258.2,"body":"But what's interesting is that every time I do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2251.3999999999996,"endTime":2258.2,"body":"a revision and I get closer to,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2259.3199999999997,"endTime":2263.7999999999997,"body":"you know, a version of the book, that feels"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2259.3199999999997,"endTime":2263.7999999999997,"body":"like every version I like a little bit better"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2263.7999999999997,"endTime":2264.8399999999997,"body":"than the one that came before."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2265.48,"endTime":2268.52,"body":"And so there's this weird sort of tension of,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2265.48,"endTime":2268.52,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2269.24,"endTime":2274.2799999999997,"body":"knowing as I'm drafting that I'm probably"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2269.24,"endTime":2274.2799999999997,"body":"going to change."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2274.4399999999996,"endTime":2278.3799999999997,"body":"And then, like, once I get to revision, it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2274.4399999999996,"endTime":2278.3799999999997,"body":"like, well, why didn't I know this when I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2278.3799999999997,"endTime":2280.22,"body":"drafted it?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2278.3799999999997,"endTime":2280.22,"body":"Like, why couldn't I see this?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2280.22,"endTime":2281.58,"body":"And, you know, you just can't."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2281.58,"endTime":2282.98,"body":"Like, that's just not how it works."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2283.54,"endTime":2284.02,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2284.3399999999997,"endTime":2286.2599999999998,"body":"that's the why I hate it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2286.8199999999997,"endTime":2288.58,"body":"That's why I hate it a hundred percent."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2288.8199999999997,"endTime":2291.3399999999997,"body":"I just feel like I'm just making problems for"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2291.3399999999997,"endTime":2293.22,"body":"myself in the future, which I am."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2293.9399999999996,"endTime":2295.3799999999997,"body":"But there's no other way to do it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2295.3799999999997,"endTime":2297.2999999999997,"body":"And so you just do it, I guess."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2297.2999999999997,"endTime":2297.9399999999996,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2298.3399999999997,"endTime":2301.1,"body":"Yeah. When I worked, when I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2298.3399999999997,"endTime":2301.1,"body":"working with Rachel, there was a thing that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2301.1,"endTime":2302.8199999999997,"body":"Rachel and I would say to each other,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2303.6299999999997,"endTime":2310.0299999999997,"body":"which was I would do something and I would"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2303.6299999999997,"endTime":2310.0299999999997,"body":"talk about past Sam and future Sam."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2311.5499999999997,"endTime":2316.0299999999997,"body":"And so when Rachel and I were in the planning"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2311.5499999999997,"endTime":2316.0299999999997,"body":"phases of the book, I had written like, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2316.0299999999997,"endTime":2318.35,"body":"don't know, a hundred pages before I started"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2316.0299999999997,"endTime":2318.35,"body":"working with her."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2318.35,"endTime":2320.5899999999997,"body":"And then she helped me kind of figure out the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2318.35,"endTime":2320.5899999999997,"body":"rest."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2320.75,"endTime":2323.5499999999997,"body":"And so when I went back and looked at those"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2320.75,"endTime":2323.5499999999997,"body":"exploratory pages,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2324.27,"endTime":2326.39,"body":"I was like, past Sam was such a genius."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2326.39,"endTime":2328.31,"body":"Like, look at all of these really great ideas"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2328.31,"endTime":2330.91,"body":"that, like, mesh so well with all this"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2328.31,"endTime":2330.91,"body":"character work we've done."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2331.0699999999997,"endTime":2335.1499999999996,"body":"And, um, and then when I was drafting, I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2331.0699999999997,"endTime":2335.1499999999996,"body":"like, well, I'm not feeling great about this,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2335.1499999999996,"endTime":2338.47,"body":"but I bet future Sam will know what to do with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2335.1499999999996,"endTime":2338.47,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2338.47,"endTime":2339.87,"body":"Because future Sam is so smart."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2339.87,"endTime":2341.6299999999997,"body":"Future Sam knows all sorts of stuff."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2341.71,"endTime":2343.39,"body":"Future Sam will fix everything."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2343.71,"endTime":2345.1499999999996,"body":"Yes, future Sam will fix"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2343.71,"endTime":2345.1499999999996,"body":"everything."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2345.1499999999996,"endTime":2348.0299999999997,"body":"So I'm trying to remind myself now that I'm"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2345.1499999999996,"endTime":2348.0299999999997,"body":"drafting again,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2349.6299999999997,"endTime":2351.47,"body":"that's like, future Sam is really smart."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2352.43,"endTime":2356.99,"body":"And future Sam is going to really appreciate"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2352.43,"endTime":2356.99,"body":"past Sam for having done this draft."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2358.31,"endTime":2359.5899999999997,"body":"That's what I always tell myself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2359.6699999999996,"endTime":2362.31,"body":"I'm also working on my fourth."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2363.27,"endTime":2365.5899999999997,"body":"Well, fifth, I guess, but fourth book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2367.35,"endTime":2370.71,"body":"And I'm having more fun than I've had before."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2370.79,"endTime":2372.83,"body":"I do think a lot of that has to do with, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2372.83,"endTime":2375.1099999999997,"body":"the complete lack of expectations."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2375.1099999999997,"endTime":2377.27,"body":"Like, I have a book on sub, so, like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2377.27,"endTime":2378.91,"body":"need another book on sub for a while."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2378.91,"endTime":2380.47,"body":"So there's no unless."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2380.47,"endTime":2382.1499999999996,"body":"Like, I sold a two book deal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2382.1499999999996,"endTime":2382.83,"body":"Oh, please."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2382.83,"endTime":2383.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2384.2599999999998,"endTime":2386.74,"body":"Then like, there's no, there's no"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2384.2599999999998,"endTime":2386.74,"body":"pressure or rush at all."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2386.74,"endTime":2388.18,"body":"So I do think that lack of,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2388.98,"endTime":2391.7799999999997,"body":"that lack of external pressure has given me a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2388.98,"endTime":2391.7799999999997,"body":"lot of autonomy."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2391.9399999999996,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"That's allowing me to have more fun with it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2393.7,"endTime":2394.02,"body":"But."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2395.3799999999997,"endTime":2402.5,"body":"But I do also think a lot of it is that I have"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2395.3799999999997,"endTime":2402.5,"body":"seen future Emily fix problems before."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2402.5,"endTime":2407.06,"body":"And I know that future Emily likes taking"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2402.5,"endTime":2407.06,"body":"really bad scenes when she knows what there"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2407.06,"endTime":2409.06,"body":"actually should be and rewriting them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2409.3799999999997,"endTime":2410.3799999999997,"body":"That's so much fun."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2410.3799999999997,"endTime":2412.74,"body":"So I'm just like giving her a lot to work"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2412.74,"endTime":2413.06,"body":"with."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2413.3799999999997,"endTime":2415.06,"body":"She won't see problems."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2415.3799999999997,"endTime":2415.93,"body":"Yeah, I."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2416.08,"endTime":2417.3199999999997,"body":"That's another good way to think"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2416.08,"endTime":2417.3199999999997,"body":"about it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2417.3199999999997,"endTime":2423.9199999999996,"body":"Because I feel like so much my problem in"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2417.3199999999997,"endTime":2423.9199999999996,"body":"drafting is that I'm trying to not have to do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2423.9199999999996,"endTime":2424.3999999999996,"body":"revisions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2424.3999999999996,"endTime":2425.72,"body":"It's like, I like revisions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2425.72,"endTime":2426.72,"body":"Why am I, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2427.12,"endTime":2431.68,"body":"spending so much more time in the part of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2427.12,"endTime":2431.68,"body":"process I don't like to save myself from the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2431.68,"endTime":2433.04,"body":"part of the process that I do like?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2434.64,"endTime":2435.64,"body":"Yeah, I feel like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2435.64,"endTime":2438.0,"body":"So with the project that's on submission now,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2438.3999999999996,"endTime":2439.96,"body":"last year I was like, I'm gonna."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2439.96,"endTime":2442.3999999999996,"body":"I'm gonna crack that code, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2442.3999999999996,"endTime":2445.04,"body":"And I'm just gonna track forward as fast as I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2442.3999999999996,"endTime":2445.04,"body":"can."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2445.04,"endTime":2445.6,"body":"So I."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2445.96,"endTime":2450.6,"body":"But really all I did was I just drafted and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2445.96,"endTime":2450.6,"body":"revised obsessively as fast as I could."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2450.8399999999997,"endTime":2456.24,"body":"So I wrote the draft very fast, but I wasted a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2450.8399999999997,"endTime":2456.24,"body":"lot of energy in the interim, going back and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2456.24,"endTime":2457.72,"body":"revising and revising and revising."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2457.72,"endTime":2459.24,"body":"So this time, I'm trying not to do that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2460.6,"endTime":2462.7999999999997,"body":"I have my first act, and I've not revised."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2462.7999999999997,"endTime":2464.2799999999997,"body":"I think I maybe revised, like, the first"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2464.2799999999997,"endTime":2464.7599999999998,"body":"chapter,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2465.96,"endTime":2467.7999999999997,"body":"so we'll see how long I can keep it up."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2468.3599999999997,"endTime":2469.52,"body":"Yeah, I'm trying really hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2469.52,"endTime":2470.7599999999998,"body":"Question, Poll. It's hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2471.16,"endTime":2471.8399999999997,"body":"Sometimes I just."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2471.8399999999997,"endTime":2473.24,"body":"I get to a point where I've lost all the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2473.24,"endTime":2473.71,"body":"threads,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2474.8999999999996,"endTime":2477.8599999999997,"body":"and so it's less revising and more like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2474.8999999999996,"endTime":2477.8599999999997,"body":"backtracking to be like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2478.18,"endTime":2482.58,"body":"okay, where'd I go off trails and how can I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2478.18,"endTime":2482.58,"body":"get back on the right direction?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2482.58,"endTime":2485.46,"body":"Um, and sometimes if I don't do that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2482.58,"endTime":2485.46,"body":"backtracking,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2486.02,"endTime":2490.3399999999997,"body":"I've. I. I don't know how to go forward"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2486.02,"endTime":2490.3399999999997,"body":"because I'm going in the wrong direction."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2490.5,"endTime":2493.8599999999997,"body":"And, like, now that I know that I'm going in"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2490.5,"endTime":2493.8599999999997,"body":"the wrong direction, I can't unsee it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2493.8599999999997,"endTime":2498.06,"body":"So I can't just, like, then, like I said"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2493.8599999999997,"endTime":2498.06,"body":"earlier, I have a hard time not, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2498.06,"endTime":2499.62,"body":"picking dominoes out of the line."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2499.7,"endTime":2502.5499999999997,"body":"And so when I'm drafting, I have to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2502.5499999999997,"endTime":2503.35,"body":"chronologically."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2503.35,"endTime":2505.0299999999997,"body":"It has to, like, at least make sense."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2505.0299999999997,"endTime":2506.79,"body":"I can't just be like, okay, I know I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2506.79,"endTime":2508.1899999999996,"body":"go back and make these four changes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2508.1899999999996,"endTime":2509.91,"body":"I'm just gonna pick up as if I've made those"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2509.91,"endTime":2510.39,"body":"changes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2510.6299999999997,"endTime":2511.1499999999996,"body":"My brain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2511.1499999999996,"endTime":2512.1499999999996,"body":"My brain can't do that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2512.1499999999996,"endTime":2515.0299999999997,"body":"Some people can do that, and I envy them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2516.1499999999996,"endTime":2517.75,"body":"If you can do that, do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2517.99,"endTime":2521.95,"body":"But I think I am able to do that,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2517.99,"endTime":2521.95,"body":"but only if they're, like, kind of subtle"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2521.95,"endTime":2522.35,"body":"changes."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2522.35,"endTime":2525.6299999999997,"body":"And I've had the problem several times of what"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2525.6299999999997,"endTime":2531.06,"body":"I call writing the wrong book first, where,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2525.6299999999997,"endTime":2531.06,"body":"like, I will start on an idea and then,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2532.1,"endTime":2538.18,"body":"like, wildly come up with a new idea that is,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2532.1,"endTime":2538.18,"body":"like, still the same premise and the same"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2538.18,"endTime":2540.74,"body":"characters, but is, like, completely"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2538.18,"endTime":2540.74,"body":"different."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2541.2999999999997,"endTime":2544.18,"body":"And that completely different idea really is a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2541.2999999999997,"endTime":2544.18,"body":"better idea."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2545.3799999999997,"endTime":2548.4199999999996,"body":"But it's like, well, I learned a lot about"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2545.3799999999997,"endTime":2548.4199999999996,"body":"these characters."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2548.66,"endTime":2553.06,"body":"This is why I thought for so long I didn't"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2548.66,"endTime":2553.06,"body":"like revising because I considered that shift"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2553.06,"endTime":2553.7799999999997,"body":"to be revising."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2553.7799999999997,"endTime":2557.5699999999997,"body":"And it's only on the most recent time I did it"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2553.7799999999997,"endTime":2557.5699999999997,"body":"where I was like, that was not revising."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2557.5699999999997,"endTime":2558.5699999999997,"body":"That was a Whole new book,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2559.0499999999997,"endTime":2559.77,"body":"like, related."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2560.49,"endTime":2563.93,"body":"When does that usually happen for you?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2560.49,"endTime":2563.93,"body":"Act One."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2565.77,"endTime":2569.25,"body":"So it's been a couple of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2565.77,"endTime":2569.25,"body":"different times."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2569.25,"endTime":2575.93,"body":"So in the historical novel that I wrote that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2569.25,"endTime":2575.93,"body":"time, it wasn't quite as dramatic,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2576.49,"endTime":2582.62,"body":"but basically, I wrote a whole draft and then"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2576.49,"endTime":2582.62,"body":"realized that the middle part was not at all"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2583.3399999999997,"endTime":2584.46,"body":"where I wanted to go."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2584.9399999999996,"endTime":2589.98,"body":"And so I kept Act 1 and Act 3 pretty much the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2584.9399999999996,"endTime":2589.98,"body":"same, but rewrote all that too."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2590.54,"endTime":2591.06,"body":"Got it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2591.06,"endTime":2593.14,"body":"And then with one of my fantasy novels, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2593.14,"endTime":2599.8599999999997,"body":"wrote a whole draft before, and I just did not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2593.14,"endTime":2599.8599999999997,"body":"know enough about storycraft at that point."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2599.8599999999997,"endTime":2604.14,"body":"And so I was like, this doesn't actually hold"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2599.8599999999997,"endTime":2604.14,"body":"together at all."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2605.02,"endTime":2610.0699999999997,"body":"And so I did some more thinking and figured"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2605.02,"endTime":2610.0699999999997,"body":"out same character, a couple of the same"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2610.0699999999997,"endTime":2611.5499999999997,"body":"characters, some of the same premise,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2612.91,"endTime":2614.27,"body":"but very different story."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2614.83,"endTime":2616.35,"body":"So that was a page one rewrite."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2617.23,"endTime":2622.0699999999997,"body":"And then the book that I worked on with Rachel"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2617.23,"endTime":2622.0699999999997,"body":"was a queer sports rom com."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2622.0699999999997,"endTime":2626.1499999999996,"body":"But when I originally started writing it, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2622.0699999999997,"endTime":2626.1499999999996,"body":"wrote, like, 200 pages of a gaslamp fantasy"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2626.1499999999996,"endTime":2628.99,"body":"based on the same premise that I really hated."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2629.6299999999997,"endTime":2631.5499999999997,"body":"And then while I was writing that is when I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2629.6299999999997,"endTime":2631.5499999999997,"body":"got."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2631.5499999999997,"endTime":2635.12,"body":"I was like, what if I did this?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2631.5499999999997,"endTime":2635.12,"body":"But with Formula one driver?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2635.12,"endTime":2635.9199999999996,"body":"That's awesome."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2636.48,"endTime":2638.16,"body":"And that ended up being a much better idea."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2639.4399999999996,"endTime":2643.6,"body":"I really would love if my process did not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2639.4399999999996,"endTime":2643.6,"body":"always involve writing the wrong book first."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2643.68,"endTime":2650.7599999999998,"body":"The current book that I'm working on, I think"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2643.68,"endTime":2650.7599999999998,"body":"I wrote an Act One that I realized could not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2650.7599999999998,"endTime":2651.3599999999997,"body":"be sold."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2652.08,"endTime":2654.16,"body":"The premise just wasn't gonna work."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2655.52,"endTime":2662.08,"body":"And so then I pivoted to another idea where I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2655.52,"endTime":2662.08,"body":"can use some of what I wrote in that Act 1."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2662.6699999999996,"endTime":2662.99,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2663.47,"endTime":2666.99,"body":"And so that felt like I got to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2663.47,"endTime":2666.99,"body":"write the wrong book without writing the whole"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2666.99,"endTime":2667.5099999999998,"body":"wrong book."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2667.5099999999998,"endTime":2668.1899999999996,"body":"So that was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2668.1899999999996,"endTime":2669.6299999999997,"body":"That's what I do a lot."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2669.71,"endTime":2671.95,"body":"I happen, like, Act Ones for me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2672.91,"endTime":2674.6299999999997,"body":"And it's taken me a long time to realize this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2674.6299999999997,"endTime":2676.23,"body":"Cause I used to get caught in the Act 1"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2676.23,"endTime":2680.6299999999997,"body":"revision cycle, like the perfectionism cycle,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2676.23,"endTime":2680.6299999999997,"body":"which is very different from what I'm about to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2680.6299999999997,"endTime":2681.0699999999997,"body":"explain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2681.39,"endTime":2681.95,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2682.75,"endTime":2689.1099999999997,"body":"where that cycle, I was stuck rewriting Act 1"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2682.75,"endTime":2689.1099999999997,"body":"and revising Act 1 obsessively because I was"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2689.1099999999997,"endTime":2690.1899999999996,"body":"too scared to move forward."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2690.89,"endTime":2691.29,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2692.0899999999997,"endTime":2696.33,"body":"but I have realized that part of my process is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2692.0899999999997,"endTime":2696.33,"body":"I have to feel my way into the right story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2697.1299999999997,"endTime":2700.33,"body":"So for this project that I'm working on right"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2697.1299999999997,"endTime":2700.33,"body":"now, I have a finished Act One."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2700.73,"endTime":2703.85,"body":"But I had already written parts,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2705.6099999999997,"endTime":2708.5699999999997,"body":"like, probably, like, two thirds of Act 1,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2705.6099999999997,"endTime":2708.5699999999997,"body":"like, two other ways."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2709.45,"endTime":2711.25,"body":"But both of them, I was like, it's not right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2711.25,"endTime":2712.93,"body":"Like, this version's too romantic."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2712.93,"endTime":2714.33,"body":"I wanted it to be a thriller."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2714.41,"endTime":2715.97,"body":"It's like the tension's not there."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2715.97,"endTime":2717.0499999999997,"body":"It's not the right focus."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2717.6099999999997,"endTime":2718.73,"body":"So I have to kind of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2718.73,"endTime":2720.37,"body":"And the same thing happened for all my"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2720.37,"endTime":2721.0499999999997,"body":"previous projects."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2721.0499999999997,"endTime":2722.75,"body":"I just didn't quite recognize it as that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2722.75,"endTime":2723.39,"body":"because I was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2723.39,"endTime":2725.35,"body":"The perfectionism was wrapped up in it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2726.0699999999997,"endTime":2727.6699999999996,"body":"This time I can definitely feel."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2727.6699999999996,"endTime":2728.35,"body":"It's like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2728.35,"endTime":2729.91,"body":"I was like, this isn't the right genre."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2729.91,"endTime":2731.6699999999996,"body":"Like, I'm not going in the right direction."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2731.75,"endTime":2733.0699999999997,"body":"The tension's not in the right spot."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2733.0699999999997,"endTime":2735.75,"body":"And if the tension's not in the right spot,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2733.0699999999997,"endTime":2735.75,"body":"how am I supposed to write Act 2?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2736.1499999999996,"endTime":2739.83,"body":"So for me, it feels like Act 2 is the story"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2736.1499999999996,"endTime":2739.83,"body":"and Act 1 is how you get there."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2739.99,"endTime":2745.1899999999996,"body":"And if I'm not feeling like I'm getting to the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2739.99,"endTime":2745.1899999999996,"body":"right starting point for act two, I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2745.5899999999997,"endTime":2749.95,"body":"I generally will start over just to figure out"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2745.5899999999997,"endTime":2749.95,"body":"how to get to that right starting point."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2749.95,"endTime":2755.95,"body":"But once I found it for this time, I was like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2749.95,"endTime":2755.95,"body":"I wrote 20k pretty fast."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2755.95,"endTime":2757.27,"body":"It kind of flowed out of me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2757.27,"endTime":2759.1499999999996,"body":"And then I reached that Act 2 break and I was"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2759.1499999999996,"endTime":2760.23,"body":"like, okay, this is the right break."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2760.23,"endTime":2762.83,"body":"I have a lot of revising to do for act one,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2763.39,"endTime":2767.35,"body":"but I'm not gonna revise it because I'm in the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2763.39,"endTime":2767.35,"body":"right direction now."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2767.35,"endTime":2768.83,"body":"So I feel like it's."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2769.0699999999997,"endTime":2771.87,"body":"It can feel differently once you untangle some"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2771.87,"endTime":2772.5099999999998,"body":"of that stuff."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2773.0699999999997,"endTime":2776.35,"body":"Yeah, I think I'd probably end up"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2773.0699999999997,"endTime":2776.35,"body":"rewriting act one a lot more."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2776.43,"endTime":2780.5499999999997,"body":"Not just like, I. I also used to be prone to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2776.43,"endTime":2780.5499999999997,"body":"the, like, I gotta keep rewriting Act One"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2780.5499999999997,"endTime":2781.6299999999997,"body":"until it's perfect thing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2781.87,"endTime":2782.91,"body":"But I also think,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2783.9399999999996,"endTime":2787.7,"body":"similar to you, it's kind of how I'm figuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2783.9399999999996,"endTime":2787.7,"body":"out what the story is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2787.9399999999996,"endTime":2788.66,"body":"So in other."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2789.14,"endTime":2795.02,"body":"In the two books that I have that I think are"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2789.14,"endTime":2795.02,"body":"like, I could self publish them and they'd be"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2795.02,"endTime":2796.3399999999997,"body":"readable books."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2796.3399999999997,"endTime":2797.14,"body":"Like, people could,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2797.46,"endTime":2799.46,"body":"you know, start to finish read them,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2799.9399999999996,"endTime":2801.54,"body":"and they hang together pretty well."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2801.7799999999997,"endTime":2804.74,"body":"In one of them, I had to add a lot to Act One"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2804.74,"endTime":2806.8199999999997,"body":"because I had the catalyst too early."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2807.8599999999997,"endTime":2812.0699999999997,"body":"And in the other one, I had to cut a lot from"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2807.8599999999997,"endTime":2812.0699999999997,"body":"Act One because I had."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2813.6699999999996,"endTime":2817.43,"body":"I needed a lot of, like, on ramp for myself to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2813.6699999999996,"endTime":2817.43,"body":"get to know all these characters in this world"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2817.43,"endTime":2822.87,"body":"and this plot that then ended up not really"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2817.43,"endTime":2822.87,"body":"being necessary for the reader later on."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2823.5899999999997,"endTime":2829.1099999999997,"body":"So, yeah, I would definitely say that for when"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2823.5899999999997,"endTime":2829.1099999999997,"body":"I. When I look at my stories, I think that Act"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2829.27,"endTime":2833.0299999999997,"body":"1 tends to get redone the most and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2829.27,"endTime":2833.0299999999997,"body":"restructured the most."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2833.83,"endTime":2835.27,"body":"It has to do the most work."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2835.27,"endTime":2837.0299999999997,"body":"I mean, it's got to hook the reader, it's got"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2837.0299999999997,"endTime":2840.0,"body":"to introduce the characters, it's gotta"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2837.0299999999997,"endTime":2840.0,"body":"introduce the plot."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2840.0,"endTime":2842.2,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2840.0,"endTime":2842.2,"body":"Like, there's so much that once you do all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2842.2,"endTime":2847.3199999999997,"body":"that setup, Act 2 and the second half of the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2842.2,"endTime":2847.3199999999997,"body":"story especially, it's just fallout."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2847.3199999999997,"endTime":2849.68,"body":"It's just plot and, like, stuff happening."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2849.68,"endTime":2849.8799999999997,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2849.8799999999997,"endTime":2851.52,"body":"You don't have to set anything up at that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2849.8799999999997,"endTime":2851.52,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2852.16,"endTime":2857.9199999999996,"body":"So, yeah, I think I rewrite for act ones and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2852.16,"endTime":2857.9199999999996,"body":"first halves way more than anything else."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2858.48,"endTime":2858.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2860.7999999999997,"endTime":2865.52,"body":"So returning to where we started returning to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2860.7999999999997,"endTime":2865.52,"body":"editing."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2865.6,"endTime":2869.3599999999997,"body":"Well, I mean, you know, hopefully people still"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2865.6,"endTime":2869.3599999999997,"body":"learned a lot from, oh, it's all related."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2869.41,"endTime":2869.5699999999997,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2870.2,"endTime":2871.16,"body":"yeah, it's all related."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2872.6,"endTime":2875.64,"body":"So to, again, just remind everyone where we've"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2872.6,"endTime":2875.64,"body":"been."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2875.7999999999997,"endTime":2878.04,"body":"So you get your edit letter from your agent."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2879.24,"endTime":2883.24,"body":"Step one is to do some processing and sit with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2879.24,"endTime":2883.24,"body":"what they said,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2885.0,"endTime":2886.24,"body":"have your feelings about it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2886.24,"endTime":2887.96,"body":"I think that's the other thing is it's okay to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2888.2,"endTime":2891.64,"body":"still be upset when you get feedback from an"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2888.2,"endTime":2891.64,"body":"agent or an editor."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2892.3599999999997,"endTime":2894.3599999999997,"body":"It's okay if it still kind of sucks."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2896.8199999999997,"endTime":2903.8599999999997,"body":"I. I've been lucky so far in that I haven't"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2896.8199999999997,"endTime":2903.8599999999997,"body":"felt like I've gotten any feedback yet from my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2903.8599999999997,"endTime":2905.46,"body":"agent where I was like, this made me sad,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2906.66,"endTime":2908.8999999999996,"body":"and I had to, like, pick myself up."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2910.02,"endTime":2911.7799999999997,"body":"But that's it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2911.7799999999997,"endTime":2913.22,"body":"It doesn't mean you have a bad agent"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2913.22,"endTime":2917.62,"body":"relationship if sometimes you feel sad when"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2913.22,"endTime":2917.62,"body":"you get feedback."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2918.5,"endTime":2919.8599999999997,"body":"Yeah, that's normal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2920.5,"endTime":2922.02,"body":"Usually for me, it's just, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2923.0699999999997,"endTime":2925.71,"body":"anxiety, but I learned to expect it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2925.79,"endTime":2926.35,"body":"So, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2926.99,"endTime":2930.35,"body":"I remember vividly I got an edit letter from."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2931.87,"endTime":2936.83,"body":"I think it was my editor for Crimson or"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2931.87,"endTime":2936.83,"body":"Molten,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2937.6299999999997,"endTime":2938.6699999999996,"body":"probably both times."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2938.6699999999996,"endTime":2940.91,"body":"And I just forwarded it immediately to my"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2940.91,"endTime":2941.5499999999997,"body":"remarkable."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2941.87,"endTime":2942.83,"body":"Without reading it,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2944.75,"endTime":2947.72,"body":"which is like, if nobody knows, it's like a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2944.75,"endTime":2947.72,"body":"writing tablet kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2948.5899999999997,"endTime":2951.0699999999997,"body":"And then I waited until I had, like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2951.6299999999997,"endTime":2956.1099999999997,"body":"Until a moment when I knew I had time and,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2951.6299999999997,"endTime":2956.1099999999997,"body":"like, space and felt calm."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2956.1099999999997,"endTime":2957.5499999999997,"body":"So I was like, okay, I'm gonna,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2958.1099999999997,"endTime":2959.5499999999997,"body":"like, overrun or whatever."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2959.95,"endTime":2964.27,"body":"Um, and then I sat on my porch and I read"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2959.95,"endTime":2964.27,"body":"through it, and I just took notes on it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2964.27,"endTime":2967.27,"body":"And then I had scheduled time afterwards to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2964.27,"endTime":2967.27,"body":"process it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2967.27,"endTime":2968.47,"body":"So I just, like, went for, like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2968.47,"endTime":2970.6699999999996,"body":"I had scheduled time to go for a walk after I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2968.47,"endTime":2970.6699999999996,"body":"read it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2971.0699999999997,"endTime":2971.6299999999997,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2972.27,"endTime":2975.23,"body":"so that helps me, like, manage that anxiety"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2972.27,"endTime":2975.23,"body":"piece of it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":2975.23,"endTime":2975.62,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2977.0499999999997,"endTime":2977.45,"body":"Like you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2977.45,"endTime":2978.41,"body":"I can't think."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2978.6499999999996,"endTime":2980.1699999999996,"body":"The only time I really got, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2980.5699999999997,"endTime":2982.21,"body":"I don't even know if sad was the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2982.21,"endTime":2983.0499999999997,"body":"Would be the right word."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2983.0499999999997,"endTime":2988.41,"body":"Maybe frustrated was when Rachel gave me"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2983.0499999999997,"endTime":2988.41,"body":"feedback."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2988.41,"endTime":2989.5299999999997,"body":"No, no, she did."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2989.5299999999997,"endTime":2990.0099999999998,"body":"Rachel."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2990.41,"endTime":2992.25,"body":"She. She helped me understand."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2992.81,"endTime":2993.37,"body":"Basically."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2993.5299999999997,"endTime":2994.5699999999997,"body":"For this last project,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2994.97,"endTime":2996.81,"body":"I had hired a developmental editor."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2996.81,"endTime":2999.1699999999996,"body":"My agent had given me feedback, and then I had"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":2999.1699999999996,"endTime":3000.5699999999997,"body":"gotten a couple of beta reads."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3001.54,"endTime":3003.58,"body":"And then I asked Rachel to read it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3003.58,"endTime":3005.06,"body":"She was, like, the last one to read it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3005.7,"endTime":3007.54,"body":"And then she gave me feedback."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3009.06,"endTime":3010.14,"body":"No, she wasn't the last one."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3010.14,"endTime":3011.22,"body":"She was the second to last one."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3011.22,"endTime":3012.7,"body":"She gave me feedback and I was like, okay."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3012.7,"endTime":3014.3799999999997,"body":"And then this last person gave me feedback,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3014.3799999999997,"endTime":3015.06,"body":"and I was like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3015.54,"endTime":3017.06,"body":"wait, I didn't address that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3017.46,"endTime":3021.98,"body":"Like, I. Like, it was just this note that I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3017.46,"endTime":3021.98,"body":"had felt like I. Like everybody else had given"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3021.98,"endTime":3023.9399999999996,"body":"me it and I thought I had fixed it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3023.9399999999996,"endTime":3026.3799999999997,"body":"And so that was more of like, a frustration of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3026.3799999999997,"endTime":3028.0,"body":"like, it's still not fixed."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3028.0,"endTime":3030.4399999999996,"body":"And so Rachel had read that version, and so I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3028.0,"endTime":3030.4399999999996,"body":"was."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3030.8399999999997,"endTime":3033.64,"body":"Reached out to her and I was like, is this"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3030.8399999999997,"endTime":3033.64,"body":"still true?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3033.64,"endTime":3035.08,"body":"And she was like, yeah, kind of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3035.48,"endTime":3036.4399999999996,"body":"So we."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3036.52,"endTime":3039.64,"body":"So we talked some solutions which ended up"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3039.64,"endTime":3040.3999999999996,"body":"working out really well."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3040.3999999999996,"endTime":3042.52,"body":"But it was just one of those, like, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3043.0,"endTime":3047.04,"body":"eight people will give you the same piece of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3043.0,"endTime":3047.04,"body":"feedback and you just can't see it until it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3047.04,"endTime":3047.48,"body":"clicks."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3047.48,"endTime":3048.12,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3048.2,"endTime":3050.4399999999996,"body":"It's just one of the inevitabilities."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3051.3199999999997,"endTime":3057.77,"body":"Yeah. But I do think building in"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3051.3199999999997,"endTime":3057.77,"body":"time in your process to have your feelings"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3057.77,"endTime":3059.5699999999997,"body":"about your feedback is important,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3061.33,"endTime":3065.6899999999996,"body":"you know, because I. I mean, people talk"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3061.33,"endTime":3065.6899999999996,"body":"about, like, the whole thick skin thing and."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3065.6899999999996,"endTime":3066.37,"body":"And I."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3066.77,"endTime":3067.81,"body":"You gotta have your feelings."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3067.81,"endTime":3069.0899999999997,"body":"You gotta let yourself have them."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3070.049,"endTime":3070.73,"body":"It's not wrong."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3070.73,"endTime":3071.73,"body":"You have to process them."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3071.73,"endTime":3072.93,"body":"You have to process them."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3074.1299999999997,"endTime":3077.97,"body":"So I think it's really helpful, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3074.1299999999997,"endTime":3077.97,"body":"feedback from an agent, an editor,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3078.6899999999996,"endTime":3081.73,"body":"a book coach, a critique partner, a beta"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3078.6899999999996,"endTime":3081.73,"body":"reader, whoever it is,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3082.6899999999996,"endTime":3088.6099999999997,"body":"to just kind of, like, let yourself have your"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3082.6899999999996,"endTime":3088.6099999999997,"body":"feelings, whether that's on a run in your"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3088.6099999999997,"endTime":3088.93,"body":"journal."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3089.5699999999997,"endTime":3090.0499999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3090.21,"endTime":3093.25,"body":"Yelling to your spouse and"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3090.21,"endTime":3093.25,"body":"complaining to your spouse, which I do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3093.25,"endTime":3096.1299999999997,"body":"sometimes about feedback that I find annoying."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3097.9689999999996,"endTime":3098.6899999999996,"body":"You do need."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3098.6899999999996,"endTime":3101.21,"body":"I know that for myself, like, I need time to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3101.21,"endTime":3103.77,"body":"have my feelings before I can do."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3103.77,"endTime":3105.45,"body":"See the feedback behind the feedback that we"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3105.45,"endTime":3106.1299999999997,"body":"were talking about."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3106.45,"endTime":3106.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3107.98,"endTime":3112.1,"body":"Because if I haven't had a chance to feel my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3107.98,"endTime":3112.1,"body":"feelings and, like, defend myself, that's the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3112.1,"endTime":3114.9399999999996,"body":"other thing is in critique groups, we're told"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3112.1,"endTime":3114.9399999999996,"body":"not to defend ourselves,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3115.3399999999997,"endTime":3119.1,"body":"but I actually, like, need a chance to defend"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3115.3399999999997,"endTime":3119.1,"body":"myself, to feel like I can protect myself"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3119.66,"endTime":3124.2999999999997,"body":"before I can actually process the feedback in"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3119.66,"endTime":3124.2999999999997,"body":"a meaningful, helpful way."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3124.7799999999997,"endTime":3125.98,"body":"Yes, a hundred percent."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3126.14,"endTime":3127.58,"body":"I use my alpha reader for that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3127.58,"endTime":3128.7,"body":"She's like the first person."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3128.9399999999996,"endTime":3131.5,"body":"Usually we have a relationship where we"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3131.5,"endTime":3133.8999999999996,"body":"forward each other notes before the other"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3131.5,"endTime":3133.8999999999996,"body":"person reads them."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3134.2999999999997,"endTime":3138.1,"body":"So, like, if I. So before I forwarded to my"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3134.2999999999997,"endTime":3138.1,"body":"remarkable."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3138.1,"endTime":3139.49,"body":"I also forwarded it to her."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3139.64,"endTime":3141.08,"body":"And I was like, got notes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3142.8399999999997,"endTime":3145.56,"body":"And so she's kind of reading it as I'm reading"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3142.8399999999997,"endTime":3145.56,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3145.56,"endTime":3148.08,"body":"So then as soon as I'm done reading it, I can"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3145.56,"endTime":3148.08,"body":"call her."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3148.08,"endTime":3149.72,"body":"She's just, like, on board, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3150.8399999999997,"endTime":3153.72,"body":"and that's what I Do the venting, the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3150.8399999999997,"endTime":3153.72,"body":"defending."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3153.72,"endTime":3158.08,"body":"And then she kind of will talk me down and be"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3153.72,"endTime":3158.08,"body":"like, okay, what is the feedback behind the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3158.08,"endTime":3159.7999999999997,"body":"feedback?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3158.08,"endTime":3159.7999999999997,"body":"And how do we address this?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3160.04,"endTime":3161.7999999999997,"body":"But she kind of lives in my brain, so,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3162.3599999999997,"endTime":3166.12,"body":"yeah, that privilege of a relationship."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3166.12,"endTime":3168.4399999999996,"body":"But I do think processing, like with Rachel,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3168.4399999999996,"endTime":3172.5,"body":"when she had read the same version that the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3168.4399999999996,"endTime":3172.5,"body":"other person had read, when it finally clicked"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3172.5,"endTime":3172.8999999999996,"body":"in my brain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3172.8999999999996,"endTime":3175.7799999999997,"body":"So I was able to call her and be like, I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3172.8999999999996,"endTime":3175.7799999999997,"body":"panicking."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3175.9399999999996,"endTime":3178.18,"body":"Like, I thought I addressed this help."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3178.8199999999997,"endTime":3183.54,"body":"And she was able to help me, like, process,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3178.8199999999997,"endTime":3183.54,"body":"like, what still wasn't working and possible"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3183.54,"endTime":3184.58,"body":"solutions for it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3185.46,"endTime":3188.8999999999996,"body":"Which I just think when you try to do that by"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3185.46,"endTime":3188.8999999999996,"body":"yourself, it can just be really hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3189.06,"endTime":3190.8999999999996,"body":"I would really recommend finding other."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3192.1,"endTime":3197.8599999999997,"body":"Pairing up with other writer friends,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3192.1,"endTime":3197.8599999999997,"body":"especially ones who are also agented who"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3198.1,"endTime":3199.06,"body":"understand that process."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3199.06,"endTime":3200.7799999999997,"body":"If you can find those folks, I think can be"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3200.7799999999997,"endTime":3206.98,"body":"really helpful for just to help you process"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3200.7799999999997,"endTime":3206.98,"body":"stuff, because it's really hard to see things"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3206.98,"endTime":3209.7799999999997,"body":"clearly when your emotions are up in the way."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3210.5,"endTime":3213.98,"body":"Yeah. And honestly, though, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3210.5,"endTime":3213.98,"body":"friend who asked this question that started"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3213.98,"endTime":3216.02,"body":"this whole thing, that's kind of what she did."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3216.02,"endTime":3216.46,"body":"Is she."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3216.46,"endTime":3220.2599999999998,"body":"You know, she had some time with her edit"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3216.46,"endTime":3220.2599999999998,"body":"letter, and then when she initially was like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3220.2599999999998,"endTime":3222.95,"body":"I don't know what to do with this, she"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3220.2599999999998,"endTime":3222.95,"body":"actually brought the edit letter to our"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3222.95,"endTime":3225.27,"body":"critique group meeting so we could all look at"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3222.95,"endTime":3225.27,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3225.27,"endTime":3226.5099999999998,"body":"And, you know, we had all read."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3227.0699999999997,"endTime":3229.5499999999997,"body":"You know, I don't remember if everyone had"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3227.0699999999997,"endTime":3229.5499999999997,"body":"read her whole book or."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3229.5499999999997,"endTime":3230.35,"body":"But we'd all."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3230.35,"endTime":3231.31,"body":"We all knew it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3231.87,"endTime":3232.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3232.83,"endTime":3235.31,"body":"And so we were able to help one."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3235.31,"endTime":3236.5899999999997,"body":"We were able to help her kind of, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3236.75,"endTime":3242.95,"body":"process a little bit of how she was feeling,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3236.75,"endTime":3242.95,"body":"but also then to help her figure out, she's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3242.95,"endTime":3244.5899999999997,"body":"like, here's this thing that,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3246.1099999999997,"endTime":3247.79,"body":"you know, my agent pointed out."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3247.79,"endTime":3248.6699999999996,"body":"I think she's right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3249.06,"endTime":3250.02,"body":"I don't know how to fix it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3250.02,"endTime":3250.2599999999998,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3250.2599999999998,"endTime":3256.46,"body":"So then we could, like, brainstorm together as"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3250.2599999999998,"endTime":3256.46,"body":"a critique group, you know, some ideas to help"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3256.46,"endTime":3256.8199999999997,"body":"her out."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3258.1,"endTime":3263.8599999999997,"body":"And there's a prompt that I give some of my"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3258.1,"endTime":3263.8599999999997,"body":"clients when they're working with critique"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3263.8599999999997,"endTime":3264.3399999999997,"body":"partners."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3264.3399999999997,"endTime":3265.74,"body":"That's like a journal prompt."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3265.74,"endTime":3270.1,"body":"And it's sort of like, the first part is feel"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3265.74,"endTime":3270.1,"body":"your feelings bad, good and bad."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3270.5,"endTime":3271.46,"body":"Feel your feelings."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3271.62,"endTime":3271.8999999999996,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3271.8999999999996,"endTime":3273.22,"body":"And the second part is to, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3273.7,"endTime":3278.95,"body":"identify the feedback that you found useful"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3273.7,"endTime":3278.95,"body":"or, like, think you want to do something with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3278.95,"endTime":3280.31,"body":"and the feedback you're going to ignore,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3282.0699999999997,"endTime":3282.87,"body":"which is a little."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3282.87,"endTime":3284.5099999999998,"body":"A little more tricky with an agent."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3284.5099999999998,"endTime":3285.6699999999996,"body":"We can talk about that in a second."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3286.39,"endTime":3286.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3286.83,"endTime":3289.75,"body":"And then the last part is like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3286.83,"endTime":3289.75,"body":"okay, so now I will."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3290.6299999999997,"endTime":3294.87,"body":"And I have people write, you know, which are"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3290.6299999999997,"endTime":3294.87,"body":"the things they're going to do something with"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3294.87,"endTime":3297.43,"body":"now and what are they going to do something"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3294.87,"endTime":3297.43,"body":"with later?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3297.43,"endTime":3304.1,"body":"Because sometimes you get feedback from a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3297.43,"endTime":3304.1,"body":"critique partner and it's like, okay, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3304.1,"endTime":3305.58,"body":"at that part yet of the process,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3306.22,"endTime":3307.8999999999996,"body":"so I'm going to save this idea for later."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3309.74,"endTime":3313.8999999999996,"body":"So with an agent or an editor, I think those"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3309.74,"endTime":3313.8999999999996,"body":"last two pieces are a little different because"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3314.46,"endTime":3320.46,"body":"when you get the edit letter, the expectation"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3314.46,"endTime":3320.46,"body":"is you're doing it now and you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3320.46,"endTime":3322.9399999999996,"body":"do everything that your agent or your editor"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3320.46,"endTime":3322.9399999999996,"body":"says."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3323.8999999999996,"endTime":3328.87,"body":"Have you had any experiences where you've kind"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3323.8999999999996,"endTime":3328.87,"body":"of pushed back on something that you were."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3329.91,"endTime":3330.5499999999997,"body":"Yeah, actually."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3331.75,"endTime":3332.1499999999996,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3334.39,"endTime":3340.71,"body":"So when I wrote the first draft of this"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3334.39,"endTime":3340.71,"body":"project that's on submission now,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3342.23,"endTime":3349.99,"body":"I sent it to my agent and she came back with a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3342.23,"endTime":3349.99,"body":"bunch of feedback that just didn't feel right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3350.31,"endTime":3352.79,"body":"And it's not that it was bad feedback."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3352.87,"endTime":3356.91,"body":"What I ended up sort of processing was that I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3356.91,"endTime":3357.47,"body":"had to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3357.47,"endTime":3359.31,"body":"I didn't know what genre I was writing,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3360.91,"endTime":3361.31,"body":"so."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3361.95,"endTime":3363.71,"body":"So she was confused."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3363.71,"endTime":3365.6699999999996,"body":"I probably should not do, like, full"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3365.6699999999996,"endTime":3366.27,"body":"transparency."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3366.27,"endTime":3368.47,"body":"Probably should not have sent her that draft."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3368.47,"endTime":3370.83,"body":"I probably should have spent more time on it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3368.47,"endTime":3370.83,"body":"before I sent it to her."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3372.35,"endTime":3376.27,"body":"But that aside, she gave me all this great"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3372.35,"endTime":3376.27,"body":"feedback, but I was like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3376.6699999999996,"endTime":3378.1499999999996,"body":"she doesn't see my vision at all."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3378.1499999999996,"endTime":3379.95,"body":"But it's because she was looking at the book"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3379.95,"endTime":3381.5899999999997,"body":"from a different genre lens."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3383.18,"endTime":3385.7,"body":"And so I had to do a lot of."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3385.7,"endTime":3389.2599999999998,"body":"I sort of made a lot of time between our calls"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3389.2599999999998,"endTime":3393.4199999999996,"body":"so that I could sit down with the alpha reader"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3389.2599999999998,"endTime":3393.4199999999996,"body":"that half lives in my brain."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3393.74,"endTime":3397.74,"body":"And we sort of like, brain together about what"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3393.74,"endTime":3397.74,"body":"is the genre?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3398.7799999999997,"endTime":3400.3799999999997,"body":"What do I want to do?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3398.7799999999997,"endTime":3400.3799999999997,"body":"Like, what is the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3400.3799999999997,"endTime":3404.02,"body":"What am I going to pull the tension through?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3400.3799999999997,"endTime":3404.02,"body":"Because basically the feedback she had given"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3404.02,"endTime":3410.81,"body":"me would make it more of a romance and more of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3404.02,"endTime":3410.81,"body":"a romantasy by pulling the romance and the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3410.81,"endTime":3413.1299999999997,"body":"emotions to the forefront of the book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3413.45,"endTime":3416.1699999999996,"body":"Whereas what I wanted to do was make it a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3413.45,"endTime":3416.1699999999996,"body":"thriller."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3416.1699999999996,"endTime":3418.0899999999997,"body":"But I didn't have enough thriller teeth."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3418.1699999999996,"endTime":3419.45,"body":"Like, I didn't have enough bodies."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3419.45,"endTime":3420.97,"body":"I didn't have enough scary stuff."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3420.97,"endTime":3422.73,"body":"Like, I didn't have the tension to pull the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3422.73,"endTime":3423.0499999999997,"body":"pages."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3423.3689999999997,"endTime":3427.6099999999997,"body":"So basically when we sat down on the phone,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3423.3689999999997,"endTime":3427.6099999999997,"body":"which I know we said this earlier, but, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3427.6899999999996,"endTime":3432.6899999999996,"body":"you should always talk on the phone because"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3427.6899999999996,"endTime":3432.6899999999996,"body":"it's like the way things come out in written"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3432.6899999999996,"endTime":3434.06,"body":"form is not always the way that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3434.5299999999997,"endTime":3436.45,"body":"Yeah, they emotionally are."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3436.45,"endTime":3438.0499999999997,"body":"Like, the emotions don't translate."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3438.77,"endTime":3441.89,"body":"Like, how strongly your editor feels about a"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3438.77,"endTime":3441.89,"body":"note doesn't translate."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3442.0499999999997,"endTime":3442.45,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3442.45,"endTime":3445.1299999999997,"body":"So we got on the phone and I basically started"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3445.1299999999997,"endTime":3447.6499999999996,"body":"the conversation being like, look, this is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3445.1299999999997,"endTime":3447.6499999999996,"body":"what I want."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3447.6499999999996,"endTime":3449.81,"body":"I Figured out this is what I want to do with"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3447.6499999999996,"endTime":3449.81,"body":"the story."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3450.6099999999997,"endTime":3451.89,"body":"Here's what I'm thinking."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3452.5299999999997,"endTime":3457.0099999999998,"body":"Does your feedback still fit in that?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3452.5299999999997,"endTime":3457.0099999999998,"body":"Or like, do you agree that if I go this"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3457.0099999999998,"endTime":3460.5299999999997,"body":"direction, then I won't do X, Y, Z and I'll"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3457.0099999999998,"endTime":3460.5299999999997,"body":"do, you know, ABC instead?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3460.6099999999997,"endTime":3462.3399999999997,"body":"And she was like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3462.8199999999997,"endTime":3463.2999999999997,"body":"oh,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3464.2599999999998,"endTime":3466.02,"body":"I see now."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3466.02,"endTime":3468.2999999999997,"body":"I see what, what you're trying to do, what you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3468.2999999999997,"endTime":3468.8599999999997,"body":"want to do."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3468.8599999999997,"endTime":3471.8999999999996,"body":"And basically we were able to brainstorm some"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3471.8999999999996,"endTime":3472.98,"body":"paths forward together."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3473.22,"endTime":3475.2999999999997,"body":"So I do think it takes a little bit of like."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3475.9399999999996,"endTime":3481.22,"body":"And I've stedded you can stet comments, which"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3475.9399999999996,"endTime":3481.22,"body":"is basically when you write especially inline"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3481.22,"endTime":3484.2999999999997,"body":"comments, if somebody wants to make a change"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3481.22,"endTime":3484.2999999999997,"body":"to a paragraph and you don't like it, you can"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3484.2999999999997,"endTime":3486.02,"body":"just write stet S, T, E T."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3486.2599999999998,"endTime":3489.47,"body":"And they're, they aren't supposed to be able"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3486.2599999999998,"endTime":3489.47,"body":"to question you on it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3489.47,"endTime":3490.5499999999997,"body":"Like, they just accept it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3490.5499999999997,"endTime":3492.1499999999996,"body":"But for that bigger picture stuff,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3493.5899999999997,"endTime":3497.99,"body":"I think with agents and editors, it's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3493.5899999999997,"endTime":3497.99,"body":"important to sort of think through why,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3499.5899999999997,"endTime":3500.31,"body":"why not?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3500.79,"endTime":3504.1099999999997,"body":"And which is just a good practice anyway"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3500.79,"endTime":3504.1099999999997,"body":"because it helps you get clearer on what your"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3504.1099999999997,"endTime":3505.27,"body":"vision for the story is."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3505.83,"endTime":3508.47,"body":"And so you can kind of think, okay, why not"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3505.83,"endTime":3508.47,"body":"this note."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3508.47,"endTime":3509.75,"body":"What am I going to do instead?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3510.39,"endTime":3514.27,"body":"Or, you know, what's my reasoning and how can"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3510.39,"endTime":3514.27,"body":"I fix the feedback beneath the feedback and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3514.27,"endTime":3517.29,"body":"then have a conversation about it?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3514.27,"endTime":3517.29,"body":"Like, they're not sending you a letter"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3517.29,"endTime":3520.0099999999998,"body":"expecting you to do everything to a T."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3520.1699999999996,"endTime":3521.37,"body":"And like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3521.6899999999996,"endTime":3522.6099999999997,"body":"never question it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3522.6099999999997,"endTime":3524.45,"body":"Like, that's, that's not how a creative"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3524.45,"endTime":3525.5299999999997,"body":"collaboration should work."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3526.1699999999996,"endTime":3531.6099999999997,"body":"So any agent or editor worth their salt is"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3526.1699999999996,"endTime":3531.6099999999997,"body":"going to be willing to have that conversation"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3531.6099999999997,"endTime":3532.1699999999996,"body":"and like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3532.5699999999997,"endTime":3535.0499999999997,"body":"discuss with you other potential solutions."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3536.0099999999998,"endTime":3536.49,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3537.37,"endTime":3542.1699999999996,"body":"and I liked your piece of advice about getting"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3537.37,"endTime":3542.1699999999996,"body":"on the phone as opposed to just like emailing"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3542.1699999999996,"endTime":3543.02,"body":"each other back and forth."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3544.6099999999997,"endTime":3555.21,"body":"Because tone is so hard to convey in email"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3544.6099999999997,"endTime":3555.21,"body":"that you're like, what feels to you as the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3555.21,"endTime":3557.0899999999997,"body":"writer when you're reading it as like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3557.41,"endTime":3563.0099999999998,"body":"very negative will probably feel a lot nicer"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3557.41,"endTime":3563.0099999999998,"body":"when you're like, can hear the person's voice"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3564.77,"endTime":3566.85,"body":"and you know, are hearing what they're saying."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3567.0099999999998,"endTime":3568.6499999999996,"body":"And then also there's just a lot more room for"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3568.6499999999996,"endTime":3570.25,"body":"like, back and forth and like, well, what"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3568.6499999999996,"endTime":3570.25,"body":"about this?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3570.25,"endTime":3572.2999999999997,"body":"And like bouncing ideas off of each other."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3574.14,"endTime":3576.3799999999997,"body":"That's a lot harder to do in writing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3576.8599999999997,"endTime":3579.7799999999997,"body":"Yeah. And it's easier too to get to the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3576.8599999999997,"endTime":3579.7799999999997,"body":"feedback behind the feedback."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3579.7799999999997,"endTime":3583.66,"body":"So if the feedback behind the feedback isn't"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3579.7799999999997,"endTime":3583.66,"body":"clear, you can always ask, like, why did you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3583.66,"endTime":3584.7,"body":"make that suggestion?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3585.1,"endTime":3586.62,"body":"Or why do you think that's a problem?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3588.46,"endTime":3593.62,"body":"And usually once they start to explain it, you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3588.46,"endTime":3593.62,"body":"can start to see, oh, okay, this is what this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3593.62,"endTime":3597.3399999999997,"body":"It's a pacing issue or it's a character issue"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3593.62,"endTime":3597.3399999999997,"body":"or something like that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3597.3399999999997,"endTime":3602.1899999999996,"body":"And then you can think of other ways to fix it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3597.3399999999997,"endTime":3602.1899999999996,"body":"if you don't agree with whatever their"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3602.1899999999996,"endTime":3602.83,"body":"solution is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3603.47,"endTime":3603.95,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3604.5099999999998,"endTime":3605.87,"body":"Okay, so we got."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3605.87,"endTime":3608.0299999999997,"body":"We got time to process feedback, figure out"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3608.0299999999997,"endTime":3608.83,"body":"what we're going to do,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3609.5499999999997,"endTime":3615.39,"body":"have a conversation with your agent at any"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3609.5499999999997,"endTime":3615.39,"body":"point through the process, if you have"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3615.549,"endTime":3616.1899999999996,"body":"questions,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3616.5099999999998,"endTime":3617.1499999999996,"body":"want help,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3618.27,"endTime":3621.1499999999996,"body":"all that Emily and I both talked about,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3622.1899999999996,"endTime":3623.47,"body":"you know, that we kind of approach."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3623.6299999999997,"endTime":3627.0899999999997,"body":"We both have very different methods of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3627.0899999999997,"endTime":3630.1299999999997,"body":"approaching, but basically we both have sort"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3627.0899999999997,"endTime":3630.1299999999997,"body":"of a tiered approach of like, here are the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3630.1299999999997,"endTime":3632.6099999999997,"body":"buckets of, you know, the."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3632.6099999999997,"endTime":3634.45,"body":"The themes of the changes I need to make."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3634.6899999999996,"endTime":3635.97,"body":"Here's how I'm going to do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3636.1299999999997,"endTime":3637.1699999999996,"body":"Now I'm going to do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3638.21,"endTime":3643.89,"body":"How do you decide when it is time to send"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3638.21,"endTime":3643.89,"body":"something back to your agent or editor?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3647.73,"endTime":3649.5699999999997,"body":"Well, usually there's some kind of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3647.73,"endTime":3649.5699999999997,"body":"timeline."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3651.08,"endTime":3653.72,"body":"Um, so that is part of it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3653.96,"endTime":3655.08,"body":"It's sort of like a."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3655.72,"endTime":3658.12,"body":"There's a lot of factors, right?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3655.72,"endTime":3658.12,"body":"There's the timing factor."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3658.3599999999997,"endTime":3659.6,"body":"They want it back at a certain time."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3659.6,"endTime":3661.12,"body":"Obviously you can always extend deadlines if"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3661.12,"endTime":3661.48,"body":"you need to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3661.48,"endTime":3663.3999999999996,"body":"But usually, you know, I'm kind of focused"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3663.3999999999996,"endTime":3664.2799999999997,"body":"using that as a."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3664.4399999999996,"endTime":3665.56,"body":"As a guidepost."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3666.759,"endTime":3669.48,"body":"And then in terms of the actual revisions"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3666.759,"endTime":3669.48,"body":"themselves,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3670.68,"endTime":3672.8399999999997,"body":"I usually just get to a point where I'm sick"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3670.68,"endTime":3672.8399999999997,"body":"of it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3674.3599999999997,"endTime":3681.6899999999996,"body":"So I try to make sure that I've addressed all"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3674.3599999999997,"endTime":3681.6899999999996,"body":"the things that I wrote down and then usually"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3681.6899999999996,"endTime":3682.93,"body":"I'll read it through one more time."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3682.93,"endTime":3685.97,"body":"Because I'm an obsessive copy editor,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3686.37,"endTime":3687.6499999999996,"body":"line copy editor."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3687.6499999999996,"endTime":3689.41,"body":"Like, I can move words around all the."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3689.41,"endTime":3690.0499999999997,"body":"All day long."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3690.1299999999997,"endTime":3691.81,"body":"So usually by the time I get to that point, I"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3691.81,"endTime":3693.89,"body":"give myself one pass through the book to do"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3691.81,"endTime":3693.89,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3695.89,"endTime":3701.97,"body":"And then if there's like one or two spots that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3695.89,"endTime":3701.97,"body":"I'm unsure about based on the feedback,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3702.37,"endTime":3704.1299999999997,"body":"you know, I might go back and spot edit those."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3704.1299999999997,"endTime":3706.0099999999998,"body":"But at a certain point, you just gotta let it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3706.0099999999998,"endTime":3706.29,"body":"go."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3706.37,"endTime":3709.1499999999996,"body":"So that's that last sort of line edit, copy,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3709.1499999999996,"endTime":3713.6299999999997,"body":"edit, pass is usually me convincing myself"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3709.1499999999996,"endTime":3713.6299999999997,"body":"it's a."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3713.6299999999997,"endTime":3717.87,"body":"It's a good cohesive book because when you're"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3713.6299999999997,"endTime":3717.87,"body":"revising, it feels very Frankenstein y and it"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3717.87,"endTime":3718.5899999999997,"body":"can feel very."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3718.5899999999997,"endTime":3721.31,"body":"Like everything's all over the place."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3721.31,"endTime":3725.31,"body":"So that final read helps me kind of feel the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3721.31,"endTime":3725.31,"body":"flow of it, accept that it's good,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3725.87,"endTime":3727.39,"body":"accept that it's cohesive,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3728.5099999999998,"endTime":3729.95,"body":"and then I just have to let it go."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3730.1899999999996,"endTime":3731.91,"body":"So usually I kind of time it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3731.91,"endTime":3734.1099999999997,"body":"So that happens around the time when it's due"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3731.91,"endTime":3734.1099999999997,"body":"back."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3734.1099999999997,"endTime":3736.1099999999997,"body":"But sometimes that doesn't happen."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3737.5699999999997,"endTime":3739.77,"body":"I actually really like external"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3737.5699999999997,"endTime":3739.77,"body":"deadlines."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3739.77,"endTime":3740.93,"body":"I find Them really helpful."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3742.37,"endTime":3747.1299999999997,"body":"So the first revision pass that I did after"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3742.37,"endTime":3747.1299999999997,"body":"signing with my agent initially, she gave me"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3747.1299999999997,"endTime":3751.97,"body":"the notes and didn't give me any sort of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3747.1299999999997,"endTime":3751.97,"body":"deadline because it didn't really matter."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3752.1299999999997,"endTime":3754.1299999999997,"body":"There was no time pressure."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3755.73,"endTime":3758.89,"body":"And I basically said to her, I was like, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3755.73,"endTime":3758.89,"body":"find deadlines helpful."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3758.89,"endTime":3759.73,"body":"Can you give me one?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3760.0499999999997,"endTime":3762.29,"body":"Even though I know it's arbitrary, can you"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3760.0499999999997,"endTime":3762.29,"body":"just give me one?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3762.6099999999997,"endTime":3763.9199999999996,"body":"And she's like, sure, let's try a month."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3765.0299999999997,"endTime":3767.99,"body":"And I actually didn't think I was gonna make"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3765.0299999999997,"endTime":3767.99,"body":"them that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3767.99,"endTime":3771.1899999999996,"body":"Cause it happened to overlap with the last"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3767.99,"endTime":3771.1899999999996,"body":"month of school, and I was still teaching."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3772.31,"endTime":3773.91,"body":"And then as soon as school was over,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3774.95,"endTime":3780.43,"body":"so I, like, I emailed her a week before our"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3774.95,"endTime":3780.43,"body":"sort of quote unquote due date that she had"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3780.43,"endTime":3780.71,"body":"set."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3781.0299999999997,"endTime":3782.71,"body":"And I said, you know, hey, I'm pretty close."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3782.71,"endTime":3784.23,"body":"I've made a lot of progress, but I don't think"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3784.23,"endTime":3785.0299999999997,"body":"I'm gonna be done."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3785.1099999999997,"endTime":3787.1099999999997,"body":"You know, when I originally said, because"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3787.1899999999996,"endTime":3790.6499999999996,"body":"school's been busier than I thought it would"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3787.1899999999996,"endTime":3790.6499999999996,"body":"be and whatever, I was like, yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3790.6499999999996,"endTime":3790.97,"body":"fine."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3790.97,"endTime":3792.97,"body":"Because again, it was totally arbitrary to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3790.97,"endTime":3792.97,"body":"begin with."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3792.97,"endTime":3793.41,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3793.41,"endTime":3795.1299999999997,"body":"Just giving me a deadline because"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3793.41,"endTime":3795.1299999999997,"body":"I asked for one."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3795.85,"endTime":3800.6899999999996,"body":"And then as soon as school got out, I finished"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3795.85,"endTime":3800.6899999999996,"body":"everything within that week, and I got it back"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3800.6899999999996,"endTime":3803.0499999999997,"body":"to her exactly when I originally said I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3800.6899999999996,"endTime":3803.0499999999997,"body":"going to."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3805.1299999999997,"endTime":3805.77,"body":"I find."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3806.25,"endTime":3807.29,"body":"Oh, go ahead, go ahead."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3808.25,"endTime":3812.73,"body":"I just find that that's so common for"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3808.25,"endTime":3812.73,"body":"revisions, especially, because so much of the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3812.73,"endTime":3815.37,"body":"setup, like we said earlier, happens in the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3812.73,"endTime":3815.37,"body":"first half of the book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3815.37,"endTime":3819.21,"body":"And I find that revisions for the second half"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3815.37,"endTime":3819.21,"body":"go way faster, even if they're big, because"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3819.21,"endTime":3819.49,"body":"you're."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3819.49,"endTime":3820.72,"body":"It's. It's implementation."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3820.72,"endTime":3821.56,"body":"It's not set up."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3821.56,"endTime":3822.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3822.64,"endTime":3823.4399999999996,"body":"But then also,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3825.04,"endTime":3827.6,"body":"I find it's really hard to set the story down."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3828.08,"endTime":3831.24,"body":"Like, there's a. You know, there's that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3828.08,"endTime":3831.24,"body":"anxiety of I have to get it done."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3831.24,"endTime":3835.04,"body":"But I also find, like, my brain, when I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3831.24,"endTime":3835.04,"body":"revising and I'm holding that whole story in"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3835.04,"endTime":3837.7999999999997,"body":"my head, it's like, all I can think about and"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3835.04,"endTime":3837.7999999999997,"body":"all I could want to do."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3837.7999999999997,"endTime":3843.2799999999997,"body":"And so even even though I know I can slow"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3837.7999999999997,"endTime":3843.2799999999997,"body":"down, and even though I know I can, like, take"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3843.2799999999997,"endTime":3846.64,"body":"my time, like, my brain doesn't want to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3843.2799999999997,"endTime":3846.64,"body":"because it's like, it's holding up this story,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3846.64,"endTime":3848.08,"body":"and it just wants to set it down."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3848.3999999999996,"endTime":3848.96,"body":"And so,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3849.3799999999997,"endTime":3850.9399999999996,"body":"like, for me, I'll do the same thing."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3850.9399999999996,"endTime":3853.02,"body":"I'm like, I. At the midpoint, I'm like this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3853.02,"endTime":3854.8199999999997,"body":"It took me four weeks to get here."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3854.8199999999997,"endTime":3857.06,"body":"I'm definitely gonna need another four weeks"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3857.06,"endTime":3858.06,"body":"to get the second half done."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3858.06,"endTime":3860.58,"body":"And then two weeks later, it's like, oh, I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3858.06,"endTime":3860.58,"body":"done early."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3861.46,"endTime":3866.98,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. And I. I've had that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3861.46,"endTime":3866.98,"body":"same exact thing where revising is when,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3867.2999999999997,"endTime":3868.4199999999996,"body":"like, when I'm drafting,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3869.7,"endTime":3872.5,"body":"if I work for two hours, like, that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3869.7,"endTime":3872.5,"body":"impressive."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3872.66,"endTime":3874.22,"body":"You know, it's an endurance feat."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3874.22,"endTime":3874.54,"body":"That's."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3874.54,"endTime":3874.7799999999997,"body":"That."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3874.7799999999997,"endTime":3875.3799999999997,"body":"That's a lot."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3875.98,"endTime":3878.3799999999997,"body":"And then, like, I could revise eight hours a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3875.98,"endTime":3878.3799999999997,"body":"day,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3878.7799999999997,"endTime":3885.3399999999997,"body":"every day. Like, I. Yeah, I just get so sucked"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3878.7799999999997,"endTime":3885.3399999999997,"body":"into it and so absorbed in it that I just."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3885.3399999999997,"endTime":3886.3799999999997,"body":"I won't come up for air."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3886.7799999999997,"endTime":3887.8999999999996,"body":"And I just want to, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3888.3799999999997,"endTime":3889.2599999999998,"body":"you know, keep working."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3889.2599999999998,"endTime":3891.5,"body":"Especially once we get to that last phase,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3892.22,"endTime":3897.3399999999997,"body":"you know, like you said, the copy editing kind"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3892.22,"endTime":3897.3399999999997,"body":"of, you know, wording, phrasing phase."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3897.66,"endTime":3898.7,"body":"I can just, like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3899.02,"endTime":3900.2999999999997,"body":"sink into that forever."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3902.2,"endTime":3905.0,"body":"So I do find that by the time I get to the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3902.2,"endTime":3905.0,"body":"end,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3905.7999999999997,"endTime":3908.6,"body":"I definitely need a break because I have kind"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3905.7999999999997,"endTime":3908.6,"body":"of."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3909.3999999999996,"endTime":3910.3999999999996,"body":"My wife misses me."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3910.3999999999996,"endTime":3911.96,"body":"And also, like, I've pushed myself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3911.96,"endTime":3916.2,"body":"Like, you've been holding a whole book"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3911.96,"endTime":3916.2,"body":"up in your brain for however many weeks."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3916.6,"endTime":3920.0,"body":"And then, like you said, I'm also"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3916.6,"endTime":3920.0,"body":"frequently kind of tired of, like, I'm ready"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3920.0,"endTime":3920.9199999999996,"body":"to do something else."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3921.08,"endTime":3922.52,"body":"You know, I'm excited to."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3922.9199999999996,"endTime":3925.64,"body":"As much as I hate drafting, you know, I want"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3922.9199999999996,"endTime":3925.64,"body":"to start the new project."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3926.3599999999997,"endTime":3926.8399999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3927.7799999999997,"endTime":3933.46,"body":"And the other sort of metric I have for myself"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3927.7799999999997,"endTime":3933.46,"body":"is that there's usually still something that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3933.46,"endTime":3936.8199999999997,"body":"doesn't feel quite right whenever I send a"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3933.46,"endTime":3936.8199999999997,"body":"story back."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3937.62,"endTime":3943.7,"body":"But it's like, if I've gotten to a place where"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3937.62,"endTime":3943.7,"body":"one, no one has told me the thing that I'm"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3943.7,"endTime":3944.98,"body":"thinking about is actually an issue."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3945.8599999999997,"endTime":3946.2999999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3946.2999999999997,"endTime":3947.06,"body":"And two,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3947.3799999999997,"endTime":3949.7,"body":"if I don't actually know how I would fix it,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3950.66,"endTime":3952.8199999999997,"body":"then that's the point where I'm like, okay,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3950.66,"endTime":3952.8199999999997,"body":"that may be an issue,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3953.3999999999996,"endTime":3954.7599999999998,"body":"but I'm going to wait until a new."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3954.8399999999997,"endTime":3958.16,"body":"Another pass where either someone tells me"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3958.16,"endTime":3959.0,"body":"that it's a problem,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3960.12,"endTime":3962.7599999999998,"body":"or I figure out how to fix it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3963.3199999999997,"endTime":3964.7599999999998,"body":"Yeah, that's really good advice."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3965.08,"endTime":3966.7599999999998,"body":"I have a tendency to do that, too."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3966.9199999999996,"endTime":3968.52,"body":"And I think that that is especially."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3968.6,"endTime":3973.3999999999996,"body":"I find people run into that when they are"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3968.6,"endTime":3973.3999999999996,"body":"working with publisher,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3974.04,"endTime":3976.52,"body":"edit, like, at a publishing house with their"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3974.04,"endTime":3976.52,"body":"editors,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3976.9199999999996,"endTime":3979.6,"body":"because at that point, you're just trying to"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3976.9199999999996,"endTime":3979.6,"body":"get the book ready for the audience."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3979.6,"endTime":3980.37,"body":"And so there's like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3981.0,"endTime":3982.9199999999996,"body":"infinite changes you could make, right?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3983.08,"endTime":3983.64,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3983.7999999999997,"endTime":3985.0,"body":"And it's finite."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3985.08,"endTime":3985.7999999999997,"body":"It's final."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3987.48,"endTime":3990.3599999999997,"body":"And oftentimes authors will suddenly come up"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3987.48,"endTime":3990.3599999999997,"body":"with like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3990.7599999999998,"endTime":3994.08,"body":"a thousand things they want to change about"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3990.7599999999998,"endTime":3994.08,"body":"the book, but the editor only names, like,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3994.08,"endTime":3994.68,"body":"four of them,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3994.8399999999997,"endTime":3996.08,"body":"and they're like, yeah, what"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":3994.8399999999997,"endTime":3996.08,"body":"about this"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3996.08,"endTime":3998.2,"body":"and what about that?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3996.08,"endTime":3998.2,"body":"And it's not a thorough editor."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3998.2,"endTime":4001.7599999999998,"body":"And it's like, no one's Going to care about"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":3998.2,"endTime":4001.7599999999998,"body":"your book as much as you do, but you can still"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4001.7599999999998,"endTime":4002.7599999999998,"body":"make those changes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4002.7599999999998,"endTime":4004.8399999999997,"body":"Like, yeah, your book's going out in the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4002.7599999999998,"endTime":4004.8399999999997,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4004.8399999999997,"endTime":4005.56,"body":"It's your project."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4005.64,"endTime":4007.64,"body":"Like, if you still have a list of 15 other"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4007.64,"endTime":4010.49,"body":"things your editor didn't mention that you"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4007.64,"endTime":4010.49,"body":"want to change, like, you can do that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4011.2799999999997,"endTime":4012.3199999999997,"body":"Yeah, it's your book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4013.12,"endTime":4014.56,"body":"I've been there, I've done that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4014.72,"endTime":4018.16,"body":"I've talked a lot of authors down from that."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4019.2,"endTime":4022.4399999999996,"body":"That fear of, like, oh, I'm going to change"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4019.2,"endTime":4022.4399999999996,"body":"something and the editor's gonna be mad."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4022.4399999999996,"endTime":4023.12,"body":"It's like, no, they're not."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4023.12,"endTime":4023.68,"body":"It's your book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4024.48,"endTime":4025.6,"body":"They're not gonna be mad."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4026.08,"endTime":4028.96,"body":"Yeah. And if you did change"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4026.08,"endTime":4028.96,"body":"something that then they were like, actually,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4028.96,"endTime":4030.3199999999997,"body":"no, we didn't want you to change this."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4030.96,"endTime":4031.56,"body":"They'll tell you."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4031.56,"endTime":4032.08,"body":"Then you'll have."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4032.16,"endTime":4033.6,"body":"You'll have a conversation with them about"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4034.64,"endTime":4036.08,"body":"whether the change stays or not."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4038.0,"endTime":4038.8399999999997,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4038.8399999999997,"endTime":4040.3199999999997,"body":"And also the other thing I keep trying to"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4040.3199999999997,"endTime":4044.6,"body":"remind myself of is even though I'm a very"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4040.3199999999997,"endTime":4044.6,"body":"critical reader in the sense that, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4044.6,"endTime":4048.3199999999997,"body":"read as a writer, I read as an editor, so I'm,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4044.6,"endTime":4048.3199999999997,"body":"you know, I'm always thinking about, like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4048.3199999999997,"endTime":4049.0,"body":"what did the author do?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4049.0,"endTime":4050.48,"body":"And, like, how did they do this?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4049.0,"endTime":4050.48,"body":"Or whatever,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4050.8799999999997,"endTime":4053.2799999999997,"body":"like, by and large, if I read a book,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4053.6,"endTime":4054.48,"body":"I'm like, cool,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4054.8799999999997,"endTime":4055.7999999999997,"body":"this was enjoyable."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4055.7999999999997,"endTime":4056.64,"body":"I've read this book."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4056.72,"endTime":4064.1699999999996,"body":"I'm like, I know that the author probably has,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4056.72,"endTime":4064.1699999999996,"body":"like, things that felt really horrible to them"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4064.1699999999996,"endTime":4066.1699999999996,"body":"still, or, like, that they were really unhappy"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4064.1699999999996,"endTime":4066.1699999999996,"body":"with."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4066.41,"endTime":4070.33,"body":"Or on the flip side, like, I'll read a book"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4066.41,"endTime":4070.33,"body":"that was like, yeah, like, this particular"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4070.41,"endTime":4071.6099999999997,"body":"thing was not great."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4071.6099999999997,"endTime":4072.81,"body":"Like, it wasn't perfect there."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4072.81,"endTime":4075.21,"body":"You know, I had this note or this critique"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4072.81,"endTime":4075.21,"body":"about this book."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4075.45,"endTime":4076.49,"body":"Still a published book."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4076.49,"endTime":4077.37,"body":"Still holds together,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4077.77,"endTime":4078.41,"body":"you know, Perfect."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4078.41,"endTime":4079.1299999999997,"body":"Still enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4079.37,"endTime":4080.25,"body":"Still enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4080.97,"endTime":4081.93,"body":"Still pay for it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4081.93,"endTime":4082.97,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4083.77,"endTime":4088.0,"body":"And so that gives me a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4083.77,"endTime":4088.0,"body":"comfort as a writer when I. When I'm like on"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4088.0,"endTime":4088.2799999999997,"body":"those."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4088.2799999999997,"endTime":4088.64,"body":"Those."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4088.72,"endTime":4091.9199999999996,"body":"Those things where it's like, okay, I've done"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4088.72,"endTime":4091.9199999999996,"body":"all the things I've been asked to do."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4092.8799999999997,"endTime":4095.6,"body":"I still think there's this other thing that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4092.8799999999997,"endTime":4095.6,"body":"I'm a little worried about."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4097.6,"endTime":4101.0,"body":"But, one, I don't know how to fix it, so"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4097.6,"endTime":4101.0,"body":"what's the point in harping on it?"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4101.0,"endTime":4105.12,"body":"And two, nobody else has told me at this point"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4101.0,"endTime":4105.12,"body":"that they want me to do anything about it."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4105.52,"endTime":4108.56,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good advice."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4109.28,"endTime":4110.08,"body":"Gotta let it go."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4110.08,"endTime":4111.56,"body":"At some point, you just have to let it go."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4111.56,"endTime":4112.0,"body":"You do."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4112.08,"endTime":4113.36,"body":"Yeah. You do have to just let it go."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4113.83,"endTime":4119.2300000000005,"body":"So. And it's also good to have something that"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4113.83,"endTime":4119.2300000000005,"body":"you're looking Forward to, I think when you're"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4119.2300000000005,"endTime":4124.55,"body":"done revising, whether that's a new writing"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4119.2300000000005,"endTime":4124.55,"body":"project or I know that you're a big fan of,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4125.19,"endTime":4127.03,"body":"you know, taking time off to just like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4127.35,"endTime":4128.15,"body":"I'm not going to write."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4128.15,"endTime":4129.79,"body":"I'm going to read and watch TV and go to the"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4129.79,"endTime":4130.39,"body":"theater and,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4131.19,"endTime":4132.11,"body":"you know, refill the."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4132.11,"endTime":4132.39,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4133.19,"endTime":4134.55,"body":"so if you have something like that."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4134.87,"endTime":4135.35,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4136.47,"endTime":4136.83,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4136.83,"endTime":4139.51,"body":"So something like that, where you are saying"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4139.51,"endTime":4140.15,"body":"to yourself,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4140.65,"endTime":4145.77,"body":"when I submit this to my agent or my editor, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4140.65,"endTime":4145.77,"body":"get to go do X,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4146.89,"endTime":4149.21,"body":"then you kind of have this incentive of like,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4149.53,"endTime":4153.69,"body":"all right, let's just let it go and get it"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4149.53,"endTime":4153.69,"body":"done so that I can go,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4154.33,"endTime":4155.21,"body":"you know, do."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4155.53,"endTime":4158.25,"body":"Do that thing I've promised myself I get to do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4155.53,"endTime":4158.25,"body":"when I'm done revising."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4158.81,"endTime":4160.57,"body":"Yeah, yeah, that's great advice."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4161.13,"endTime":4162.85,"body":"Gotta give yourself a little carrot to work"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4162.85,"endTime":4163.21,"body":"towards."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4163.69,"endTime":4169.54,"body":"Yeah. Yep. Um, and then you'll do"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4163.69,"endTime":4169.54,"body":"the process all over again the next time."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4169.54,"endTime":4170.58,"body":"Do it all over again."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4170.9800000000005,"endTime":4173.58,"body":"Yep. First day after deadline, I cleaned my"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4170.9800000000005,"endTime":4173.58,"body":"whole house."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4173.58,"endTime":4178.86,"body":"And then after that, I usually start thinking"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4173.58,"endTime":4178.86,"body":"about whatever's next and forcing myself not"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4178.86,"endTime":4181.3,"body":"to do it yet till I've had a few weeks of"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4178.86,"endTime":4181.3,"body":"rest."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4181.94,"endTime":4184.42,"body":"Yeah, I. I need to get better at"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4181.94,"endTime":4184.42,"body":"doing that, taking."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4184.5,"endTime":4185.54,"body":"Taking some breaks."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4185.78,"endTime":4186.58,"body":"Yeah, it's hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4186.74,"endTime":4187.3,"body":"It's hard."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4187.3,"endTime":4188.46,"body":"It's an active process."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4188.46,"endTime":4189.78,"body":"I have to make myself do it."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4192.3,"endTime":4194.22,"body":"So this has been a really"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4192.3,"endTime":4194.22,"body":"wonderful conversation."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4194.62,"endTime":4196.22,"body":"I appreciate you coming."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4197.18,"endTime":4197.9800000000005,"body":"And hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4198.3,"endTime":4202.58,"body":"whether people are working with an agent or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4198.3,"endTime":4202.58,"body":"not, they will have learned some interesting,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4202.58,"endTime":4203.42,"body":"useful stuff."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4203.66,"endTime":4207.9800000000005,"body":"Do you have any parting thoughts on editing"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4208.14,"endTime":4211.34,"body":"with agent or editor feedback?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4213.02,"endTime":4214.34,"body":"Just maybe."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4214.34,"endTime":4215.82,"body":"Just remember that it's your vision."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4216.78,"endTime":4217.18,"body":"Just."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4217.91,"endTime":4218.71,"body":"Just a reminder."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4218.71,"endTime":4219.59,"body":"It's your vision."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4219.59,"endTime":4220.55,"body":"They work for you."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4221.91,"endTime":4222.79,"body":"It's your book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4223.19,"endTime":4224.63,"body":"You get the final call,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4225.11,"endTime":4227.19,"body":"and that is expected."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4227.67,"endTime":4231.67,"body":"It's like, not weird of you to want to do that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4227.67,"endTime":4231.67,"body":"if there's something you don't want to do."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4232.47,"endTime":4235.75,"body":"So just in giving you the permission to know"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4232.47,"endTime":4235.75,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4236.55,"endTime":4238.15,"body":"because I think a lot of that just gets."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4238.15,"endTime":4241.47,"body":"There's a weird power imbalance or it can feel"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4241.47,"endTime":4243.55,"body":"like there's a power imbalance that shouldn't."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4243.55,"endTime":4243.99,"body":"Slash."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4243.99,"endTime":4244.71,"body":"Doesn't exist."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4246.4800000000005,"endTime":4248.68,"body":"And so just remembering that it's your project"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4248.68,"endTime":4249.84,"body":"and your voice and your."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4249.84,"endTime":4251.84,"body":"Your choice, I think is really important."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4252.56,"endTime":4254.32,"body":"Yeah. You're the CEO of your"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4252.56,"endTime":4254.32,"body":"book."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4254.72,"endTime":4255.52,"body":"Yes, you are."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4256.0,"endTime":4259.28,"body":"Or the president or the queen or"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4256.0,"endTime":4259.28,"body":"whatever title you want to give yourself."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4260.96,"endTime":4262.8,"body":"Anoint yourself with whatever title."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4262.88,"endTime":4263.36,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4263.76,"endTime":4264.12,"body":"whatever."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4264.12,"endTime":4266.2,"body":"That. That, you know, top of the hierarchy is."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4266.2,"endTime":4267.28,"body":"That is you for the book."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4270.08,"endTime":4270.92,"body":"So. Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4270.92,"endTime":4274.59,"body":"Emily, if people want to read your books,"},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4274.59,"endTime":4276.67,"body":"learn about your work as a coach, and editor."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4277.15,"endTime":4278.3499999999995,"body":"Where can they find you?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4279.47,"endTime":4284.67,"body":"So my books are published under EB"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4279.47,"endTime":4284.67,"body":"Golden."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4284.67,"endTime":4293.23,"body":"So my website is ebgoldenbooks.com and then"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4284.67,"endTime":4293.23,"body":"you can find all my coaching"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4293.23,"endTime":4297.79,"body":"stuff@goldenmayediting.com that's probably the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4293.23,"endTime":4297.79,"body":"two easiest places I'm not really on."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4297.79,"endTime":4300.11,"body":"I have a social media page, EB Goldenbooks."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4300.32,"endTime":4306.4,"body":"I am on hiatus at the moment for the what's"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4306.4,"endTime":4308.639999999999,"body":"the foreseeable?"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4306.4,"endTime":4308.639999999999,"body":"Looking for foreseeable."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4308.639999999999,"endTime":4310.08,"body":"I was like unforeseen future."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4310.16,"endTime":4311.12,"body":"Like that's not right."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4311.28,"endTime":4312.32,"body":"Foreseeable future."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4314.08,"endTime":4315.44,"body":"We're professional wordsmiths."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4315.44,"endTime":4315.679999999999,"body":"Everyone."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4317.5199999999995,"endTime":4319.0,"body":"Thank you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4319.0,"endTime":4320.96,"body":"This has been really, really fun."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4321.44,"endTime":4322.32,"body":"Yeah, me too."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4322.4,"endTime":4323.92,"body":"And thanks everybody for listening."},{"speaker":"Sam Cameron","startTime":4324.48,"endTime":4324.96,"body":"Bye."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4325.5199999999995,"endTime":4329.0,"body":"If you want to build a successful,"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4325.5199999999995,"endTime":4329.0,"body":"fulfilling and sustainable writing life that"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4329.0,"endTime":4331.28,"body":"works for you, you've got to get on our email"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4329.0,"endTime":4331.28,"body":"list."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4331.5199999999995,"endTime":4334.938999999999,"body":"Sign now to get our free email course, the"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4331.5199999999995,"endTime":4334.938999999999,"body":"Magic of Character Arcs."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4335.019,"endTime":4338.898999999999,"body":"After seven days of email magic, you'll have"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4335.019,"endTime":4338.898999999999,"body":"the power to keep your readers flipping pages"},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4338.898999999999,"endTime":4339.739,"body":"all through the night."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4339.8189999999995,"endTime":4340.8589999999995,"body":"Link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Emily","startTime":4340.8589999999995,"endTime":4341.579,"body":"We'll see you there."}]}