118 - Where and when to end a chapter

Today, Emily & Rachel talk about ending chapters!

What you’ll learn from this episode:

• Scene vs chapter
• Scene structure
• Ending in the middle?

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Transcript

Emily: 2:18

Foreign.

Rachel: 2:31

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Emily: 2:36

I'm Emily.

Rachel: 2:37

And I'm Rachel.

Emily: 2:39

And today we are talking about scenes and chapters because oftentimes I get asked the question all the time of like, how do you know where to end a chapter? And I feel like that's a really good question and I'm excited to talk to you about it because I feel like the answers depend based on like, genre and expectations and like all the things. And I've been thinking about it a lot lately since I've been writing more like a. Of a thriller type approach to structure, which has a different approach to, you know, how to where and how to end scenes and. And chapters and stuff. So. So, yeah, so that's what we're chatting about.

Rachel: 3:19

Interesting. I. I wouldn't have. I want to talk more about thrillers in particular because I like that. I do think. I do think it can vary for sure, as with, like, what. What emotion you want to evoke on the page, like a more tense or a more emotional or a drama or, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to make readers feel. Yeah, definitely makes a difference. But what if we start with like, scene versus chapter?

Emily: 3:51

Sure, sure.

Rachel: 3:54

This one was. This question, I think is something that I always struggled with when I was a baby, a baby writer, because technically they're different. And if you have ever tried to study, like, if you've approached scenes from a study standpoint in a book, you might realize that a chapter and a scene are not the same thing always. They don't have to be. I think a scene is the unit of story structure that has more structure. I suppose. Scene strut scenes have a beginning, a middle and an end. They have expectations as far as the beats that. That occur within them. What is going on? What are characters doing? What is the plot doing? Like, a scene has, I'm so reluctant to say rules because they're not rules, but chapters are whatever the hell you want them to be. So I think like, in that sense, scenes are established. I should say, like, well, they're a chain.

Emily: 4:57

So we talk about them as a chain, right? Where you have a scene as a unit of story, where your character has a goal and something gets in the way of that goal, they have to make a choice because of that. And that choice has consequences. And those consequences set up the next scene. Right. So it's this sort of chain of events that pushes the story forward. And if you miss one of those links Right. If they don't make a choice, then you don't have consequences. So the next scene feels disjointed. Or if you don't have a goal, then what's. Why is the conflict matter? Because what are they after? Right. Like, if you, if you lose or miss one of those links in the story, then I do think it can kind of the story can veer or feel disjointed or you start to, you know, drop the threads of what you're trying to do versus a chapter. Like you said, like, it can splice anywhere at any time in any way. And so the question of where do you end a chapter? You end a scene with a choice and consequences. Right. Like that's where a scene ends. The next scene picks up when your character has a new goal. Um, I feel like that's pretty, you know, but in terms of where you actually end the chapter, I feel like that is a slightly different craft question depending on, like, the impact that you want to have on your readers.

Rachel: 6:08

Yeah, I agree. And I think, like, from a theory perspective there, people don't teach chapters. People teach scenes. And then that's why there's like, theory and reason. And this link from one thing to the next that follows a pattern to connect into your whole story chapter is like, where are you going to format this? And how does your. The formatting of this chapter, meaning, like, where it, where it cuts in the middle of a scene. How does the formatting of that chapter make your reader feel something like, what are you trying to do with. With your chapters? Chapters are part of the equation, but they're not taught in the way that scenes are taught where they are part of story. That. That's always. And that was helpful for me to learn because a chapter can be a whole scene or it can be part of a scene.

Emily: 7:08

Yeah.

Rachel: 7:08

And it. And it's done that way to make your readers feel something, to like, to get them to the cages reading.

Emily: 7:16

Really.

Rachel: 7:17

Yeah, to keep them going.

Emily: 7:20

Um, because they feel like it's. Right. A chapter is this unit of, of the product that they are consuming. Right. And if you can get them to. I'm going to flip the page. Right. We are, we are less inclined to stop reading in the middle of a chapter than we are at the end of a chapter. So if you can, at least from like. So I've been thinking about this from a thriller standpoint where this is very important because the whole, like, the driving energy, the driving purpose of a thriller is what's going to happen. Right. Is this, like, fearful kind of tension of, like, what's going to. Next? And part of that has to do with, like, what's the character going to do? But I do think it's. It veers. It's probably a spectrum, but it veers more on the side of, like, what is going to happen in the plot versus, like, what's the character going to do? Like, romance probably falls on the what's the character going to do? Side a little bit more. And I'm just curious if you have thoughts on that. But it's like, depending on the emotional journey that you want your reader to go on through the, you know, through the genre or the type of story that you're giving them and that they're expecting, you might, like, play with how you end a scene, right? Are you trying to end on an emotional moment? Are you trying to end on, like. Like, for thrillers, I've been trying to go with this, like, cliffhanger thing. It's like, oh, something unexpected happened, right? And that ups the stakes and that makes it more scary for the main character. And we're like, what's gonna happen? Is the villain closing in? So I've been trying to, like, find these places in these very short chapters, right? In a thriller, you have these really short chapters where you wanna keep readers flipping pages. So you try to end on those moments of, like, you know, the. The biggest, like, oh, shit moments. Yes. Happen. Um, and so I'm curious, like, do you. I've been more intentionally approaching this or approaching this with more intention for this draft and, like, this stage of my writing career and this story than I have previously. And I'm curious, like, do you think about that? I mean, you have POVs to deal with. Like, I. In this story, at least this thriller that I'm writing, like, it's one point of view, so it doesn't matter where cut it. Right? Because it's always her point of view versus, like, you have to think about how are you going to end a chapter with one person and pick up with another? Like, how do you think about that?

Rachel: 9:29

Well, that's the question. How am I gonna do it? No, but I, I typically, I do not end my chapters on a cliffhanger of, like, at the turning point. So if you're unfamiliar with scene structure itself, we talk a lot about this in episode 19, intro to scene structure. So in the beats of a scene, you have a character goal. You have problems, complications, things go awry, it gets worse. This builds to a beat that we call the turning point. Which is like this turning point scene forces your character to make a choice, then they make the choice, and then there are consequences to that choice. And that is like the end of the scene, like, set up. So I think it's. It's quite frequent that we'll see chapters end on like a turning point where it's like, plot thing has given us, what are we going to do? And so like, it's kind of. We've had problems spiral to this big moment, end of the chapter, because then you're like, well, what. What's the caricature going to do? AKA what choice are they going to make? You got to flip the page and you got to see. I have not in this series ended my chapters very often on that note, where I have ended them with like this kind of nebulous what is going to happen? But I do usually try to end them on some sort of tense thing to keep the reader flipping pages. So that's going to be like a dramatic character choice because we know that the other characters are going to have to react to it.

Emily: 11:02

Yeah.

Rachel: 11:03

So. So for me, it is really hard to end things on a turning point because that POV does have to continue and I have to move to a different. Usually I'm moving to a different pov. So I don't think I have made the choice very often to end a scene without showing the goal or without showing the character choice and then go to a different point of view without having seen that character choice. Does that make sense? Like a scene is in one character's point of view. So because I have seven point of views now, I'm rarely ending scenes, not doing that. But I did actually in the draft that I'm drafting now, I don't know that it will remain if the scene will remain the same, but there is a scene where I did end it at the turning point because I'm trying to hide the character choice. That's so good. I did that on purpose. And we later come to find out what that character choice is, is because that choice directly impacts the other characters. So I chose to not show that character choice for the drama.

Emily: 12:05

For that. Yeah.

Rachel: 12:06

For the conflict.

Emily: 12:07

Yeah.

Rachel: 12:08

Yeah.

Emily: 12:09

So I don't do that. Well, I jump a little bit for folks because I did this. So when I wrote behind the Crimson Curtain, I had multiple points of view in that book as well. And so I ran into the same problem or challenge, rather. Right. Where when you're writing a scene, you want to write that scene, the goal, the conflict, the choice, the consequence. Those are built around the character whose point of view you are in, right? So, like, they have a goal. Something happens that gets in the way of their goal, that's their conflict. They have to make a choice, and that choice has consequences for them. And so it's when you have multiple points of view, I do think that tends to happen where we tend to, like, show a whole scene through that person's perspective rather than cutting at that dramatic turning point. Because we want to be able to experience, like, you know, they're reacting to that. That conflict that was built for them in their choice. And we want to see them make that choice. We want to see what happens as a result. Like, we, being the readers, want that whole picture. So if you cut it, it kind of feels like, oh, we never got. We never got to live through that moment with them. So I found in Crimson, I mean, mine wasn't like 50, 50, like, there were chapters where it was a fear in chapter and then a fear in chapter. And so I could kind of mess with it a little bit there and have more, you know, play with where I caught scenes. But when I went from a fear into a Bregan chapter, I really had to think about, like, how do I make this feel complete? And I feel like in those circumstances, I leaned heavily on, like, the consequences of their choice. Something unexpected happened because of a consequence of their choice, and that's where I ended the scene or. Or something just, like, totally random happened. Like, they. They make their choice, that choice has consequences. And then, like a. Something external. Right. Happens and kind of helps leave end on that cliffhanger. Like, someone else comes into the room or like, there's an explosion or whatever. Right? And, like, you don't. It can't be totally random. You need to, like, pull the events of the scene into the next one. But that can help kind of keep it turning pages without, you know, chopping the scene prematurely.

Rachel: 14:10

Yeah, this was a. This was hard for me in Only Fools Rush in, which is my second book in this series, because there is a portion of the book where the characters split up. And so. But I couldn't, like, leave out some of the other point of views, so I. I moved around. Where do these scenes end and how does the next scene begin? Quite a lot, because they weren't. I had to make them directly impact one another to connect them, but because they weren't in the same place or working on the same thing, it was very much this question of, like, I could put these point of views in any spot, you know, because they're, they're not doing the same thing. So I did have to. I had to think about that a lot of, like, where do these other point of views go in a way that makes them feel connected, that they're all that. Even if our characters have individual goals, we're still progressing towards, you know, one external plot goal. So how are we working together? How are we doing that? Or if they are pursuing, like slightly different things, how are those pursuits affecting one another? So I, I had like some time skips actually. And then I had, you know, a group in one area need the help of a group in another area. So they had to have like a, A transition kind of phone call to hand off like the next sequence of goals, pursuit. And then we knew what the other characters were doing. So I tried to make those different goals very clear. And if we did leave one person's point of view, I tried to make it clear that we knew what they were doing. So even if we weren't going to be with them for a couple days, we knew they were. We knew they were establishing a new gun smuggling business. And that takes a lot of work and we don't need to see it. So we're back over here, you know.

Emily: 16:09

Yeah, that makes me think a lot of working on Molten, the sort of second quarter of Molten, because Fieren and Bregam were apart also. And I moved those chapters around a bunch partly. At one point I had to create a timeline where I was like, okay, it takes him four days on a ship to get here. Which means this chapter can't happen before that one. Because I wanted it to be. It didn't technically have to be in order, I don't think, but it was helpful just to, like, in my brain make sure that it was all kind of in. In some kind of order. And I did the same thing. It was like, at the end of the scene making it's clear, like, what they're gonna be doing for the next couple of days. So that when, you know, the reader doesn't feel like lost in what's going on, like, that feels like an untied up sort of cliffhanger ending. While you switch to like a whole different sort of storyline for that one too. It was. He was investigating something that she was also learning about. And so I had to be careful about, like, who learns what information when, so that the reader feels that suspense growing because, like, he learns information that you realize puts her in danger, but they're like an ocean apart. And so, like, the building that suspense of, like, the reader knows more than one of the characters can also be really helpful in terms of, like, how you place those chapters and, like, where you end them and pick the other ones up. But I had to do that in, like, later drafts once I. I think I drafted them separately.

Rachel: 17:31

Yeah.

Emily: 17:31

And then I figured out how to, like, weave the chapters together. Yeah.

Rachel: 17:35

Yeah. I just read. So two things. I just read Bonds of Hercules by Jasmine Oss. And the first one is Blood of Hercules, and the second is Bonds of Hercules. And the best part of. I did not love the book. So I'll say that it was so entertaining. I think there were a lot of craft problems that the book had that were clear to me as, like, an analyzer of, like, this is why I don't. I'm not having a good time right now. But one thing that was, like, so intriguing that I could not wait to put down is that the main girl character had a hidden secret. And we knew it was a matter of time until the guys learned the secret. And I could not wait to see them learn that secret. And so in, like, almost in every single scene, you know, she's getting beat up, she's getting hurt, and I'm like, when are they gonna find out that she's partially blind? When I, like, I can't wait to see what they think when they find out. And it was a little bit disappointing, but.

Emily: 18:44

But it kept you turning pages.

Rachel: 18:46

It kept me turning pages. It kept me turning pages because I just, like, there was something I knew that the characters didn't know. That's my point. I knew the characters didn't know it. I could not wait for them to know it. So it was so compelling. And I think that's a really powerful tool if you're going to be deciding what to show and what not to show. And different points of view is like, that is a hook. Like, we cannot wait to see what characters, how they will react to juicy bits of information. And, like, the more that you can weave your seat. Like, that's why I chose in this. The scene I'm in, the book I'm drafting now to not show her character choice because I want them to be like, oh, what did she do? Did she decide to. Did she decided to do it or not do it? And then when we see, like, the choice come out at that point, it impacts everybody. It's impacting the character whose point of view we're in, or it's impacting the reader at the same time. And, like, it's. To me, it was to me, it's brilliant. I don't know. I love it.

Emily: 19:56

So. Okay, so practical advice.

Rachel: 20:00

One more thing, however. I read a different. I'm reading a different book right now by S.J. tilly and it's called Mountain Grump. I have a wide range of. I enjoy many things. This is a mountain man romance. If you don't know, it's like a grizzly old man. He's not an old man. It doesn't matter. Anyway, I open that book and I got to the table of contents and there are 182 chapters. And I was like, what the fuck? Why are there this many chapters? And it's because there's no scene structure. So. But like in, like there are. These chapters are two pages long. Two or three pages long. It is. Every single chapter in this book is designed to flip pages. I'm not saying that is the best way to incorporate scene structure into your work. But I am saying that the short chapters always end on like an emotional gut punch. So that when I go to the next one, I like, am seeing the next character cry, or I'm seeing the next character feel guilty, or I'm seeing like, them. Them look at the same situation through two different lenses. And we don't need a whole scene. I need like little, little moments through each of this person's eyes. That does not work for everybody because one of the critiques that S.J. tilley has of her work is that her short scenes are very annoying to read. If I think if you can get into the character stuff, they work. So it's. That is a choice that this author has made to kind of forego. You know, it's not that the scenes don't link together, because they absolutely do. Or the chapters, I should say the chapters don't link together. They do, but it does not follow a standard structure. And it is entirely character based and emotional based of like, when these different chapters end. I would not call them scenes, though, you know, so like, that's. That's the craft side of things where I'm like reading this book and I'm like, there is no scene structure. There is no craft in this. Not that there's no craft. That's not fair. There's no. We're not getting all of the beats that a reader might typically look for. But in these books, it's like the character, the author's choice for a reason. And I think it is one of her stylistic choices, you know, across many of her books, to do it this way. So I think a good Thing to read, a good thing to study to be like, do I prefer the shorter chapters or do I prefer like a full, flesh out established scene that's going to include the plot and character at the exact same time? For reasons.

Emily: 22:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that that comes down to like the experience that you want your readers to have and that your readers might expect to have based on the genre. Right. And then you can kind of. So you can kind of study what they, what they do and whatever genre that you write to end chapters. And what about that chapter ending keeps you turning pages? Or is it designed to make you like, set it down and think like, I just read the Everlasting by Alex Harrell and I would not say like her chapters are very contained for a reason because I think she wanted you to kind of like sit with it before you went into the. It's a, it's a time travel book. So like she goes back in time several times. And so it's like this completed thing where you're kind of supposed to sit with the gut punch of it and then, and then move on to the next one. And so like, it just depends on, on what experience you want. So I would say some tangible tricks would be think about, you know, look at, look at the books in your genre. Look at books that you like and how they end the chapters. Like study that, see what they have, what they do. That's going to be your, your biggest teacher, I think, for how you might approach it. And then some other, like, smaller tips for when you're actually in the middle of. It might be like if you're, if you're working with multiple points of view, make sure, you know, consider doing the whole scene to make it feel complete. Or if you're not going to do that, you know, have a good reason for it. And consider sort of those, the last couple lines of each chapter. Like, how can you word them to, you know, create suspense or create mystery or create a sense of fear. Right. That's going to keep your, your reader flipping pages. Those would be my, I think my like tangible takeaways. Anything I missed or that you would add.

Rachel: 24:23

I don't think you missed anything I would add. You know, when I have, I have there. I think there's a classic argument of like, well, if this book I love doesn't have scene structure, do I need to know scene structure, that kind of thing of. Well, that's not common in my genre. I'm like, I think it is more common than probably you think, but the, the Point of understanding the function of scenes and the way that they work together is what gives you the ability to choose differently. So if you do choose to like put chapters in a different place or whatever stylistic choice you're going to make, I do think you need to understand why scene beats build character arcs, why scene complications, scene problems influence plot. Like those things are like craft 101 or like foundational craft knowledge. Because then that's what gives you the ability to make a confident choice. I am going to end this scene in this spot or I'm choosing to go really light on the conflict in this scene for this reason. Or my character will have a goal, but we won't see the consequences yet because I'm gonna reveal them later. Like that kind of background knowledge is what allows you to make confident choices. And like the confident choices are what pull books off, I think, because there are a million different ways to put scenes and chapters in a book. But understanding the why behind why these things are the way that they are or what is going to hook that emotion in your reader. Knowing your characters, I also think that's really critical to writing scenes. It's like deeply knowing your characters and what they want and why and what they're afraid of without having that knowledge. That's what I think scenes are little surface. They just kind of feel willy nilly. We're not really going anywhere.

Emily: 26:37

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel: 26:39

We're like here for drama's sake, not necessarily for depth.

Emily: 26:45

Yeah, yeah. So. So basically I feel like what we're saying is you, you gotta know how scenes work in order to figure out where to end your chapters. Yes, effectively. Whether you're gonna end it on a scene, split a scene or not, or have complete scenes, it doesn't matter. You need to understand how scenes work and why they're important. So I'm going to stick. We'll stick the link to our scene structure blog and our scene structure episode in the show notes. So if you're not, if you know, if you're new to this, if you're not familiar with what a scene is or, or how we teach about it, everybody teaches about it differently. We definitely recommend checking that out and just getting a feel for, you know, what is a scene and why. Why does it function the way it functions so that you can kind of figure out how you want to splice your chapters and again, you can figure out, figure out how to splice your chapters in later drafts. It doesn't need to be a draft. One thing like, I wouldn't worry about that as you're writing, worry about it later when you're. Get the story out and then worry about it when you're. You're taking your story and trying to craft a reader experience intentionally. Yeah, that's where chapters are important and where they come in.

Rachel: 27:53

100% agree. Because look, you. When you're drafting an early draft, you just have to make choices and those choices are probably not going to be good ones. So just make the choice, write forward, and then later you can come back and be like, ah, okay, now I see how I can connect those consequences to a later scene. So I'm going to end it here. Or like, I can always delete or add. So this is not. I. No, nobody does this. Nobody gets this right. I guess I should say in their first draft. This is definitely something that comes later.

Emily: 28:27

Cool.

Rachel: 28:29

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Emily: 28:36

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Rachel: 28:44

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.

Emily: 28:46

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