Story Magic

116 - The brain science behind writer's resistance with Monica Hay

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Today, Emily & Rachel talk about the brain science behind resistance with special guest Monica Hay!

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • What causes our brains to freeze up when we try to write
  • Retraining your amygdala 
  • Building neurons that support a writing habit 

MONICA HAY's WEBSITE: https://monicahay.com/

MONICA's INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/monicahayauthor/?hl=en

MONICA'S MATCHING PROGRAM: monicahaycoaching.com/matchmaking


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Emily:

Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.

Rachel:

I'm Rachel.

Emily:

And I'm Emily.

Rachel:

And today we're talking about the brain science of writer's resistance. Writer's resistance. Overcoming it. So to be a fun chat with our very special guest, Monica. Hey, welcome, Monica.

Monica Hay:

Hi. It's nice to be here.

Rachel:

This is going to be a great chat. We're going to have a ton of fun. Um, but before we get started, could you please tell us a little bit about you and introduce yourself for our listeners?

Monica Hay:

Yes. This is the part that I always struggle with because I, like, for some reason, I never know how to introduce myself.

Rachel:

Who am I?

Emily:

I don't know.

Monica Hay:

Who am I? What do I do? Okay, so I am a writing coach, and I specialize in helping writers overcome resistance. So that looks like procrastination, perfectionism, writer's block. I come from a background in social work along with English lit, and so I have kind of a holistic view of the writing process. I'm also very fascinated by brain science, and so I help writers overcome resistance using the actual brain science and using those tools so that they can actually get their writing done. There's a lot of shame surrounding resistance, I think, and so I help remove the shame so that people can get to writing again and enjoy it again, find some joy in the process and stuff like that.

Rachel:

I live in Amsterdam with my two.

Monica Hay:

Cats and my husband.

Rachel:

Yay. So do you work with, like, clients one on one in group settings? How do we tackle this shame?

Monica Hay:

Yeah. Okay. So I used to run a bootcamp called the Overcome Riders Resistance Bootcamp, and that was where I would teach all these tools. I'm kind of making it into something else now, which will be available at some point, 20, 26. I don't know when, but someday. And that's kind of where I would te the brain science. It's basically an intro into what it is. I. When I tell people that it's a lot of it's brain Science space, they are like, what the hell is the brain science? Like, what are you talking about? And so I explain all that through the bootcamp. People can work with me one on one. They can work with me in groups. It really depends on what the person needs. Some people really love the individual connection with the coach, especially if they come from a lot of shame, because they don't necessarily want to share that in a group. Right. But some people actually find the group setting quite healing as well. So it really depends on the person. And I also have a community where I call us. Like, a lot of us are neurospicy. Not everybody. But I'm also quite open online about being ADHDer. I was diagnosed later in life, which Rachel, have you, like, said that you have?

Rachel:

Okay.

Monica Hay:

I'm like, I don't want to out you.

Rachel:

Yeah, no, I've said it. Everybody knows I was 29.

Monica Hay:

I think I was 29.

Rachel:

It's at that time Saturn's return. You know, things are getting weird and you're like, something's wrong.

Monica Hay:

You're like, I can't anymore. Yeah. So I got diagnosed then. And ever since then, I've been pretty open about that journey. And so I also attract a lot of adhders into my practice.

Rachel:

That makes sense. So how'd you get into this? You. So if friends you should know. We had scheduled to record this like a week and a half ago, and we ended up just talking for two full hours. Three hours. Almost three hours. We were just talking, didn't record, had to reschedule.

Monica Hay:

Here we are.

Emily:

So.

Rachel:

So we are very good at chatting. But tell back then, the last time we spoke, you had said that you came from the publishing world. Did that bring you into this work or how did you get into specifically doing this?

Monica Hay:

The publishing world? Yeah. It's kind of a long story. It's kind of meandering. I think when I was a social worker, I did really love it, but I got very burned out very quickly. And honestly, I think that's the nature of social work in a lot of different places. And I had discovered I had rediscovered my love of reading. And so I got really obsessed with books. And I really wanted to work in publishing, in marketing or publicity. I didn't want to be an editor because I don't know how people edit books. I'm sorry. Like, I don't know how you guys do it. And so I went back to get my degree in book publishing. And so I finished that, went to New York to work in publishing, and I started working in marketing. And then Covid hit. I was not the girly that wanted to stay in New York during COVID It was just not a vibe. I also didn't love New York. I don't. I mean, I can see myself living there again. Maybe someday. Well, actually, I should probably just not lie. I don't think I would ever go back.

Emily:

New York is a specific vibe.

Monica Hay:

It just wasn't for me. And so publishing is very much based in New York. That's just the reality. And so, excuse me. I went back to Portland and I worked for a literary agent for a bit, and I kind of realized that wasn't really for me either. I loved working with authors. I really love working with writers and authors and creatives. I love that part. What I didn't love was, to be honest, when you're an agent, you have to read pretty quickly. I don't read super quickly, personally. So when I left that, I was like, okay, what? What do I do? And when I got diagnosed with adhd, it was actually when he told me that a lot of ADHDers are happiest when they have their own business, when they get to call the shocks. And so I was like, okay. And so I kind of combined the social work background and the publishing experience. Took me a couple years to land here. But, you know, I started coaching writers with what I knew from publishing, and it used to be more based on craft. And then throughout, you know, learning what I was interested in, I landed on the brain science stuff.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Emily:

Well, I'm super excited to talk about the brain science of resistance, because I feel like we talk about the brain science and sort of the nervous system stuff when we're talking about burnout mostly, and then when we're talking about we call it mindset stuff, like mindset work. We talk a lot about, like, you know, the inner voices in your head that are really your fear manifesting. But I don't feel like we've bridged the, like, what is the brain science of procrastination and perfectionism? So I'm really excited to hear sort of like, how you talk about that and how you see that and teach that.

Rachel:

Yes.

Monica Hay:

Do you guys want me to give you this? The, like, please. On it? Yeah.

Rachel:

I want the heavy.

Monica Hay:

I want the everything on the heavy. Okay. So it's always funny because this. The brain science stuff, I have, you know, like an hour and a half teaching on it, and you can go very deep. But the whole concept of the brain science is that our brains are designed. It's quite simple. Our. Our brain is designed to go toward pleasure and away from pain. Okay? So most of us are probably aware of that concept. And when we look at the brain and we look at our consistent.

Rachel:

Habits.

Monica Hay:

So, for example, I, you know, go to the gym, and I want to make a habit of going to the gym more often. Your brain sees that as quite exhausting. Okay. And it's the same with writing. And so when people ask me what do I do to overcome resistance, I say, Your brain is literally designed by default to completely avoid discomfort because of survival. And from a nervous system perspective, we all kind of know this. Like, we know that our nervous systems are, are going between the system, the PSNs and the SNS, so the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. And, well, a lot of people get stuck in certain nervous systems. I won't go into that too much. Uh, but basically we end up in a place where if you show up and your. Your brain is barking at you, let's say it's saying, this is shit. My writing sucks. I can't do this. Or maybe you don't show up at all because you're too scared. A lot of that is basically just your brain protecting you. It's just protection from the brain. Because your brain, when you are not used to doing a typical thing, so writing, going to the gym, it can be any type of thing that you want to be doing in your life. When you're not doing it relatively consistently, your brain will start to freak out and basically treat it like a threat. So I like to call it right or flight. Your. Your brain basically goes into fight or flight when you show up to write. Yeah. And most people are like, why? Why is my brain afraid of writing? Like, that makes no sense. Like, I'm not gonna get, like, what is my book gonna do? Like, yes, there's no actual danger when I show up to write. Like, I'm not, like, I can get a paper cut. Like, what the hell is gonna happen? Uh, but your brain doesn't know that if you show up to write and you have, let's say you haven't written in a while. So you show up and you're like, where am I going? What do I do that can cause fight or flight? If you show up, you have perfectionism issues that will cause fight or flight because nothing's good enough. Your brain is basically designed to get out of a stressful situation, AKA writing, not make sense of it. And so when we show up to write, as we all know, it's a lot of mental. It's wrestling with a lot of mental stuff. You're wrestling with self doubt. You're wrestling with a lot of sometimes negative emotions. Your brain doesn't want to make sense of those negative emotions. It wants to walk away from those negative emotions. It doesn't want to feel pain. Right. So when people ask me why exactly can my brain feel threatened by something so simple as, like, showing up to the computer? A lot of it comes down to when we look at the prefrontal cortex and our amygdala. So am I getting, like, too technical?

Emily:

No, no, this is.

Monica Hay:

No, no, no, no, no.

Emily:

More like, tell me about the amygdala, please.

Monica Hay:

So bas the way I like to describe the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. And I did not make this up. I saw this. I think a friend told me about this. Think of your prefrontal cortex as like a parent and think of your amygdala as like a fucking five year old. No, three year old child with a knife. That is your amygdala. And your amygdala has a knife in her hand and is running around saying, this is a threat, this is a threat, this is a threat. And your prefrontal cortex is just like, you fucking bitch. Like, call me tits. Stop. Stop overreacting at everything and just relax. Like free. Stop freaking out. But your amygdala kind of. It's basically your fear center. It's they call the emotional brain. I don't love that term. That's what they call in the science community. It's a very primitive part of your brain. It's the survival part of your brain. And she is a dramatic little bitch.

Emily:

She just is like my daughter this morning.

Monica Hay:

I love her. Yes, yes. And so when she feels threatened, she will override your little prefrontal cortex who is like, I want to write a book. And she's like, no, this is scary. And I'm in fear. And so we end up walking away from the book. People ask me like, why is the amygdala so triggered by when you show up to write? And it has a million. There's a million things. It could be like a trauma that you have from writing. Maybe there's a critique partner that was mean to you and you still have those thoughts in your head. It could be a trigger in your book. That's like stressing you out. It's. There's a million things it could be. And sometimes people ask me, can I heal this? Can I make it go away? I am not necessarily a scientist, but I would say for the most part, we can't remove our amygdalas from our bodies. Right? They are what part of what makes us human. And so what we have to learn to do is. Is. Is manage it, is managing those responses because we are still humans and we still have parts of our brain. And if we didn't have our amygdala, we would probably walk into traffic and die. So just. Just saying that your amygdala doesn't care about your writing goals, doesn't care about your dreams. It just wants you to stay safe. Yeah. And writing just doesn't feel safe for most. For most of us. But that's where a lot of the fun neuroscience can come in. People will often ask me, so my amygdala, my brain has this reaction to writing. What do I do? And I say, well, we have neuroplasticity. That's the really lovely thing about the human race. Like, not every other species has this. All right? Like, well, I. I don't know what studies have been done on other species, but we have the ability to change our brains. And so I always tell people that when they haven't written in, say, a couple of months, even a month, they might show up. And you're like, oh, man, this is tough. Like, I don't know where I was in this book. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, it. It kind of feels like you're a little bit rusty. And this is because of what I call writing neurons. And so you guys might have heard an analogy. A lot of people hear this analogy of when you do a habit consistently, there's like a path in the snow that's created. And it's the same with writing. It's the same with really anything you do consistently. Your brain creates neurons around that habit so that it's easier for you to do. That's just what the brain does. That's. It's, it's just like, oh, let's make it so that if I'm learning a language, we create a bunch of neurons there and we build that habit, we build that endurance so that we can show up more easily. It's just a really easy way for the brain to repeat behaviors. And so when you're not writing a shit ton, like if you're writing, if you haven't written in six months, those neurons have fucked off. Ultimately, they're like, bye, bye. Because we also have competitive neuroplasticity. Our neurons are going to go somewhere else if we don't use them. Kind of like when you go to the gym. If you don't go to the gym for six months, your muscles are going to start to wane. That's just how the body goes. And so you can create new neurons by showing up to write more often. And I always tell people, I hear this all the time. People are like, oh, so I just need to get a lot of neurons. So I need to show up for hours a day. Yeah. And like, they Want to do crazy thing? And I'm like, do you go to the gym and immediately start repping 50 pounds when you haven't repped even five pounds in, like, six months? No. Okay. So I tell people to start small, like, bare minimum. And there's a reason for this. I say start it even a minute. Five minutes. You show up for five minutes to write. You let your amygdala yell at you. You let the thoughts flood you. And as you keep showing up and your body starts to notice that this is a safe space, there's not a bear. I'm fine. You'll start to build the neurons. The nice thing about neuroplasticity is that when we have a habit that we do relatively consistently, doesn't have to be every day, but enough where our neurons are still hanging out, it does reduce amygdala reactions. So basically, when you are writing consistently for months and months, your amygdala won't react in the same way as it would if you hadn't been writing at all. Some people will still have fear responses, and they show up to. Right. That can be very normal. But those fear responses won't flood you the same way that they would if you were starting a new habit.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

And so what it comes down to is your brain is dramatic, like. Like on it.

Rachel:

Like a queen.

Monica Hay:

She's. She's a drama queen, and she. She wants to protect you. And there's actually a lot of body benefits to being stuck in resistance. Like, I don't think people realize this. Like, one of the things I talk about with resistance is, like, not writing prevents discomfort. Writing a book or writing in general is not comfortable. I think we all know this. It protects your emotions. A lot of people are like, oh, my God, what is my family gonna think of my book? What is the general world gonna think of my book? Like, a lot of people are very afraid of that. Right. It protects your image. It also helps you avoid putting out a ton of effort. This is a big one. Writing is not an easy task. It's. It requires a fuck ton of energy. Yeah. I don't think people understand.

Rachel:

No, they don't.

Monica Hay:

How much energy writing requires. Your brain doesn't want to do that. It wants to conserve energy for when it's needed. Right. That's why we pick up our phone and scroll, because your brain's like, I can just get some cheap dopamine on TikTok. And then if a bear chases me, I'll have all the energy.

Rachel:

The bears.

Monica Hay:

So it just sounds exhausting. Your brain is just like, oh, why would I do this exhausting thing that can cause all these painful possibilities, like people judging me, feeling emotions that are negative when I even show up to write. Also, the uncertainty of writing, there's not a lot of certainty when it comes to the writing life. And so that uncertainty also triggers the brain and triggers safety response, basically. Writing is just not a safe space for the primitive part of our brain, the survival part. And so we have to teach it that it is. That's really what it comes down to.

Emily:

I love this. I love this use or like, this explanation of the amygdala and sort of how it reacts and how we need to. Like, basically what I'm hearing is that we need to build those neurons so that the amygdala chills the fuck out. And it's like, okay, this isn't scary. Right? And so, like, your example of people being like, oh, I'm gonna build neurons by doing like eight hours of writing tomorrow. No, you're gonna freak your amygdala out.

Monica Hay:

Exactly.

Emily:

So I love how this sort of. We talk a lot about, you know, the small repeatable actions, something that feels very doable that, you know, you can do to start to build trust in yourself. And really what you're doing is you're trying to prove to your amygdala that it can trust that you're not gonna die if you do this small thing every day. And so I really like how that kind of gives science language to. To some stuff that we've talked about before. Like, folks who are familiar with our goal setting will. Will hear a lot of familiarity in this.

Monica Hay:

Yeah, yeah. And I think people. People aren't necessarily immediately aware of the fact that we have to train the brain. Like, we. We know that we have to train the body if we want to, like, run a marathon or whatever. Like, we know, like, oh, I have to train it. But your brain reacts the same. And I think for a lot of people, they just. They're. They're not taught that. People aren't taught that in school. They're not taught, like, hey, when you start a new habit, you have to train your neurons. Nobody teaches you that, really. Right. Unless, I guess, you're in science class. But for the most part, people are always surprised when I tell them, like, your brain just needs some training. Yeah, your brain also. And I thought this was really interesting. I was looking at a post. This was months ago. One of the really effective ways of training the brain is not only just small habits, but self compassion. Yeah. And so you guys might have talked about that in the past on the podcast, but there's evidence that suggests that when we're kind to ourselves, our amygdala doesn't freak out as much. Shocking. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Rachel:

Wow.

Monica Hay:

It gives us the ability to sit with discomfort a lot more easily when we're kind to ourselves. And it makes it so that your amygdala will, like, basically calm down. Whereas when we're mean to ourselves, that actually causes the amygdala to freak out even more.

Emily:

That's funny. I'm so. I have a two year old and I have been reading parenting books lately. And like, you calling the amygdala like, basically a toddler is like, hilarious. Because now I'm like, okay, well, what if we just treat it and I think is inner child work, right? Like, that small child inside you that's terrified is really your amygdala is what.

Monica Hay:

I hear you saying.

Emily:

And so there's like a lot of like, like, that's where the reparenting comes in, right? It's like learning how to treat your amygdala with kindness and be like, okay, you're freaking out right now. Could you please hand me the knife? Let's like, sit down, lay down on a pillow, cry down. Let's move through the emotions so that we can show up and do the thing. I just find that visual is very fun for me.

Monica Hay:

It's very helpful. Whenever I, my, my brain's freaking out, I'm just like, okay, child, like, like, take a breath. And it's. Some people do have, like, a more overactive, you know, situation than others. Like, some, some people have more trauma around certain things, and so their, their fear reaction is more heightened. And you can slowly teach it that it doesn't have to be so heightened when you write. But I always tell people, because I used to think that we could just train our brains to completely overcome resistance and, like, have it be a thing of the past. But as I learn more of the brain science, I'm just like, that's just not how the brain works. Like, we, we have fear responses and they're not logical fear responses. So even if we logically know that we're not going to die, when we sit at the computer, the brain might have this connection of something really awful that happened or might be really scared of the thing we see. We open our email. There's so many things that could be happening in the brain that your brain is processing it as this, like, traumatic thing. Like, I'm going to Die. If I face this email, which, you know, I'm just. It cracks me up because when I teach people this, they're like, well, why is our brain not, like, caught up? And I'm like, babe, the modern world has existed for, like, two seconds.

Emily:

Yes.

Monica Hay:

I'm like, I love it to catch up. Trust me, that would be fantastic.

Rachel:

We need way more time.

Monica Hay:

We need, like, thousands more years.

Rachel:

Oh, my gosh. I think there's, like, I. I really like the bear analogy, and I use it all the time because I do think there's bears that live in my email.

Monica Hay:

And so I am going to avoid.

Rachel:

It because, yes, I don't want to see the bears that are there.

Emily:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

And that's. That's not really. That's like a very real feeling for your body. Right. Like, it's like when we go into an interview and we, like, sweat through a T shirt and we're like, why am I stressing out so much? Like, it's not like, like, maybe there's some stakes. You're like, oh, if I don't get this job, blah, blah, blah. But your brain is like, danger, danger, danger, and pumps all this adrenaline through you, and you're like, excuse me, I don't want to be, like, wet when I get into this interview. I know that I always sweat a lot when I was interviewed.

Emily:

All the time.

Monica Hay:

Annoying. But these. These responses are body responses. There are some people, like Wim Hof, who can, like, train their entire bodies to respond to certain situations. And, like, I respect those people. I think they're amazing. That is not the average person. The average person is going to have a response. It's an automatic response. You cannot control it. Yeah. Unless you want to be Wim Hof and, like, swim in ice.

Rachel:

No, I don't want to do that.

Monica Hay:

Pass.

Rachel:

But I see, like, I. I feel like there's so many parallels between your past work as a social worker and now the. The brain science in the study here and the work that we do with creatives and we have used. Like, I'm wondering if the science is different. Anyway, I'm saying there's a lot of parallels because there's so many different things that I feel like this makes connection to. And one of the ones is that, you know, when we're talking about overriding that amygdala or training it to have a different response. Emily mentioned the small, repeatable actions, but it also. But, like, we equivalate or we equivalate a lot to, like, exposure therapy. Like, you've Got to sit down and let yourself be afraid of it, to teach yourself that it's not scary. And now I'm like, oh, well, that's why exposure therapy works, because that's the brain science behind exposure therapy. So I'm like co opting that phrase to say, this is what we're doing. But that's why that part of therapy is actually beneficial, is because it has, it's not just that you're showing it. You're. You're showing yourself enough times that you finally believe it. It's like you're rewiring how your brain functions.

Monica Hay:

Exactly.

Rachel:

So that it doesn't respond the same way.

Monica Hay:

Exactly.

Rachel:

Really powerful. I mean, I think this just gives me more. I think this makes mindset work even more credible to me. Like I have when, you know, baby Rachel. Right. Grew up in a very specific environment that was not really like, oh yeah, go to therapy and fix yourself and let's talk about our feelings. Let's bury them instead. That's better. Let's avoid confrontation. That'll work. So now like adult Rachel had to go through a metamorphosis and get to the part where like, oh yeah, actually emotions are a good thing and let's not be afraid of it. And when I feel a difficult emotion, that's not a critique on my strength or something. Like, that's not a critique of my ability to process something.

Emily:

Yep.

Rachel:

I had to do a lot of work to get there. But throughout that period, there was a time where I heard a lot of like, oh, that's, that's woo woo stuff. Or like your brain is just, just suffer more and you'll, you'll refine yourself. You know, like, there's this whole attitude that mindset work is not real, like not concrete or tangibly explained.

Monica Hay:

Yeah. And for you, science background. Right. And so, yeah, yeah, it's, it's even harder for you to hear that kind of stuff because you're like, but I do want the tangible.

Rachel:

I want the tangible, I want the evidence, I want the studies. And now, now it, I feel like it. If you're listening to this and you've always been like, well, I don't know how the mindset stuff is fine, but writing is writing. You show up to write and you either do it or you don't. Like, there's actually a lot of science behind the mindset work. It's not separate.

Monica Hay:

It's not, it's not separate at all.

Rachel:

Right. It's a very physical thing. I think that's another thing is that People draw this line between the physicality of writing and the mentality of writing. And, like, they're the same thing, right?

Monica Hay:

Yeah. What do you mean by they're the same thing? In the sense that you're. You're having to live with the mindset while you're doing the writing? Is that what you mean? Like, it's the holistic process?

Rachel:

I. That's exactly what I mean. Like, we. We say this. A lot of, like, mindset or process without mindset falls apart.

Monica Hay:

Yep.

Rachel:

Like, you cannot sit down and expect yourself to write unless you've figured out what's going on inside your brain.

Monica Hay:

Yep, exactly.

Rachel:

That's what I mean. Like, they are the same thing. And. And we also talk a lot about how, like, your writing life is not separate from your life life. They're not two different things.

Monica Hay:

No. They don't exist in a vacuum.

Rachel:

Yeah. And like, your brain and your body have to work in tandem to get writing done. Like, you can't separate one from the other.

Monica Hay:

Yep.

Rachel:

And going back to what you're saying about competitive neuroplasticity and the changes in our brains and like, as. As our bodies change and adapt and grow and as we get older or as we experience different life changes, of course that will affect your writing process, your writing life. Like, these things are not separate from one another, but I do often think they are taught that way. Or you're asked to. To differentiate them or like, to compartmentalize, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. You're asked to, like, compartmentalize them when you write. And I don't think that that's possible.

Monica Hay:

No, I don't think it is either. And I do think that the compartmentalization is very common in any field. Like, it's the same thing when people go to work. It's like, compartmentalize, like your personal life from your work life. And like, sure, there are things that maybe I don't want to bring to work, but I think when we look at how the mindset works, if you have really negative, awful feelings and thoughts when you show up to write, it's going to make it a lot harder to write. That's just the reality. Yeah. And when I tell people this kind of stuff, sometimes I hear like, oh, I don't, you know, I don't want to just like. I mean, I hear. I hear a few different responses. One is, how do I change my emotions and my thoughts? And two is, why do I need to change the way I talk to myself and the way I. With the way I'm thinking in order to write. And it comes back to the very simple reality this is. It seems so simple and boring, but it's a simple reality that our brains want to go toward pleasure and away from pain. So if you have these really negative thoughts that you associate with writing, your brain sees pain. That's just what it is. Right? Like, and when you start to learn to shift those that thinking into a place of. It doesn't even have to be positive. It can be just neutral, can create a neutral space that's totally fine as well. It starts to feel less painful. And therefore you're able to sit with the discomfort longer. You're able to actually build the neurons. Yeah, yeah. I think the mindset stuff is a huge part of the battle. And I think a lot of people don't like what you were just saying. They don't even think about that part. It doesn't even occur to them. They just think, oh, I'll read some craft books, I'll listen to podcasts and I'll start writing. And then they're surprised when they show up and they're like, oh, this is not easy and I can't do it. And I'm like, you can totally do it. We gotta change the way you're talking to yourself. Because if you consistently tell yourself, I'm shit, like I can't do this, and you actually really buy into those feelings, then it's gonna end up being a place where you are feeling shame, you're feeling self doubt, and then you don't wanna do it.

Rachel:

I'm not gonna do it if I don't wanna do it.

Emily:

Well, this is bringing up a lot of parallels too, to. So we talk a lot about like, finding the joy. Right. And like following the curiosity. And it's making me think of what you're saying about how the brain goes away from pain and towards pleasure. And I think this is also a process question. Right. It's like everybody has a different writing process. And when you're trying to force yourself to write in a way that someone else did because it worked for them and they think it should work for everybody. Right. Then if your brain doesn't see that as something that is pleasurable, it's going to find you're going to hit resistance. Right? Right. And so I think this also sort of gives some science behind why if you sit down and give yourself some options as to what you could do and go with whichever one sounds the most fun and whichever one is more curious, you're going to find less resistance as you're sort of figuring out your mindset stuff, Right? Because you have to take the actions in order to start to train your amygdala to think that it's not a threat. And so you're gonna have an easier time doing that if you're following your own instincts, your own gut instincts towards curiosity and joy, than if you're, you know, trying to prescribe to someone else's process and, like, idea of what's right.

Monica Hay:

Yeah, I really like that point because I do think that people will kind of. They'll show up and they'll try to force a process that they learned about from somebody else. And they'll be like, eh, is something wrong with me? Like. Like, they start wondering if it's like a them problem. I'm like, no, there's just like a million different strategies for writing a book. Like, you can do whatever you want. It's funny, I do think I was actually listening to an audiobook earlier today where she was talking about resilience. And people sometimes will ask me.

Emily:

If.

Monica Hay:

My brain wants to go toward pleasure, how can I make writing always pleasurable? And I tell them, I don't know, because I honestly don't think I. I don't know. And I. Like, I'm always asking myself, where is the line between creating flow and pleasure in our writing lives and going toward that and also accepting that you're going to face discomfort a lot of the time when you're writing and you're going to have to build resilience to face that discomfort throughout your writing career. I don't know where the answer is. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. But I'm always grappling with this idea because I want to tell people, yes, writing can feel pleasurable all the time, but I don't really think it can.

Rachel:

Yeah, not all the time.

Monica Hay:

No. No. And when people are like, okay, but how, you know, like, when is writing gonna feel easier? That's such a per. Like, it really depends on the person, right? Like, for some people, this is a. Like, an example of one of my old students. I think they. There's a lot of, like, talk and study around how long it takes to build habits. And I've heard people say it's like 21 days. It really depends on the person and their brain. And so for some people, it'll take 21 days. For some people, it'll take two months. Right. And so people are like, well, when is it going to feel easier? And I'M like when your neurons are hanging out, like, your neurons have got to be hanging out. But even then, even when your neurons are, like, chilling and, like, doing their thing in neuron heaven and like in your brain, like you, you still have to face some discomfort because that's just the reality of being human. A lot of things that we want to do in life that are worth doing are uncomfortable.

Emily:

Well, if you think about what the process of writing a book is, right, it's just making 8 million decisions one after the other, right? And like, most of them, you're going to change your mind about later. And so, like, that is just inherently uncomfortable, I think. And so you can practice showing your body that that's not gonna, you know, making those decisions isn't gonna kill you, right? And you can practice showing your body that throwing out some of those decisions to make new ones later isn't gonna kill you.

Monica Hay:

Right?

Emily:

And that's just. That's just that practice and iteration and the habit changing. But still, when you come up against a difficult decision, this is going to feel difficult and there's going to feel like there's stakes and it's going to be uncomfortable. And so, yeah, I agree with you. I don't think writing can, and I don't think it should be just, like, completely pleasurable all the time. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have ease to it, and it shouldn't. You know, I feel like when it feels really difficult and you're hitting resistance and you can't move forward, like, then there's something to question there. But, yeah, it's not. Sometimes it's just going to feel like a grind, just.

Monica Hay:

Yeah, I agree. And I think. I think something that I see a lot with, with my people is they were gifted children. A lot of people I work with, I don't know if either of you were in that place. I was not gifted at all when I was a kid.

Rachel:

Yeah, been there.

Monica Hay:

Yeah. Yeah, I was.

Rachel:

And my daughter's now. She was asked. She's five. She's in kindergarten. And like, we just recently got her into, like, the.

Monica Hay:

The track to go on.

Emily:

Talented. Is this.

Rachel:

Is this a good idea?

Monica Hay:

Because I don't know that it did much for me. Well, some of the. Yeah, the, some of the gifted stuff, I don't know what it looks like these days, but I know that for people Maybe in the 90s or 80s or early 2000s, we tend to. I mean, my. I. My brother was gifted, which is funny because, like, I was a dumb kid, you know, like, idiot, non. Non. Diagnosed adhd. Like, stupid kid. With, like, comparing myself to my amazing brother who did everything right. Um, anyway, a lot of people who are gifted, actually, I. I have found, or I've seen struggle a bit more with writing because if it doesn't come easily to them.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

They start questioning their whole identity because they've been told our lives, like, oh, you're so good at this. You're so good at this. You know, I know that my brother was probably told, like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna do great things. I have. I have no idea what. Exactly what he's told. I could be like, totally making the show. But they're. They're like, there's so much pressure to, like, be naturally good at shit.

Emily:

Yes.

Monica Hay:

When you're a gifted kid and then when you grow up and you're like, I wanna write books. And then you start writing books and you're like, oh, I don't come out of the womb knowing how to write a book. Yes, that's really hard. A lot of people just think, like, they suck or they can't do it, or they're like, I have something other people. I don't have something people don't people have. And I'm like, you just have to practice to get better at writing books.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. I was just reading about this in a parenting book yesterday about, like, the dangers of certain kinds of praise. Because if you praise a child in a way that makes it seem like their identity is the reason that they. You're good at something, then they start to think that, like, being good or talented or what a gifted or whatever means something comes easily to you. And so as soon as something is hard, and this was me, as soon as something was hard, I gave up. Because I didn't want my identity to be associated with not being good at something immediately. And so I think, yeah, that's. That's entire. I see that a lot among writers as well. It's like, they really want to do this thing and they want to do it well, and they feel like. Because they can't do it instantly perfectly right out the gate, you know, it's.

Monica Hay:

Right.

Emily:

Reflection of their identity as a human being. Yeah.

Monica Hay:

I think that creates more of that resistance too. Right. It's like they're like, well, why, you know, why am I not showing up to do it when this is like the most important thing in my life? And I'm like, the stakes are probably so high in your brain and it's freaking your amygdala out as always. Yeah. And it's. It's always an interesting conversation when people start to notice the patterns of what's going on in their heads. And I have noticed that people who overcome resistance the best, like, once they learn the tools of, like, you know, showing up for small amounts, like doing the tiny habits, learning how to train their brain once they learn those tools. What I have found is that people who actually implement them are usually people who are connected with other writers.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

I mean, you probably. You. You guys probably feel this because you have each other.

Emily:

Yeah.

Monica Hay:

And the truth is that when you're writing by yourself, it's extremely lonely process because other people just don't get it. Like, it's the same as, like, if you're in the arena, like, we wouldn't understand the realities of being an actor. Right. Like, we wouldn't understand that type of world. And then it's the same with writing, like, when you are like, I am spiraling while I try to write my book. I don't know how to do this. And you can reach out to a friend who's also a writer and have them help, like, talk you down. Right. If you don't have that person, it makes it a lot harder to overcome it.

Rachel:

I agree. I think, like, the. One of the big things that changed for me, I mean, I had to do all this retraining to my brain the same way we were just talking about. About discomfort. But, like, learning that it was normal to feel like this was hard.

Monica Hay:

Yes.

Rachel:

Was like, a really big deal to be like, oh, it's supposed to be like that. Or like, everybody feels this way to a certain degree. You know, things like that where it's. There's a community and there's like, an acceptance at that point to be like, I am not bad because this is hard, or, I'm not an outlier because of how much I'm struggling.

Monica Hay:

Like, exactly.

Rachel:

Everybody goes through this, and then it's. It's really encouraging and validating to then go talk to a friend and be like, hey, it doesn't matter what stage of the journey. We've all been through it.

Monica Hay:

Yep.

Rachel:

And, like, to talk to someone and be like, this sucks, and then have them be like, you're right, it does suck. I think, like, most of my, like, my. My complaining conversations with one of my. With one of my alpha readers is like, and. And one of my writing buddies. Half the time we're like, are you ready to give up?

Monica Hay:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Are you ready to give up?

Monica Hay:

Cool. Let's give up.

Rachel:

And then tomorrow we just do it again. And then we're like, okay, you gonna give up today? Yeah. Okay, well, I'm here to give up also. And then we just like, you know, it's.

Monica Hay:

It's tongue in cheek.

Rachel:

But having that camaraderie is really important for, for the good times. Of course it's really fun to have people to celebrate with and I think that's really motivating and encouraging. But to be able to see other people and to know not only am I not alone and isolated, I'm also not isolated in my experience.

Monica Hay:

Exactly, exactly. I. It's funny because what I had found in the last few years when I like. Because I, I low key will like stalk people who go through my boot camp. Like, like that sounds really bad, but like, I'll check them on social media. Like, I'll see how things are going for them. And what I always see is that when people have some kind of connection, they actually reach their goals faster. And it's funny. I don't know if you guys have experienced this in the publishing world, but there is this, like, it's not really talked about, but there's this idea that you have to earn community. A lot of people say like, oh, I'll find community when I'm a serious writer. When I've published a book, I'll find it when, like, I'm actually writing consistently. I'm not like, good enough yet. And there's, to be honest, a low key amount of gatekeeping in writing circles. Yeah. Where they treat you like an outsider if you're not published. Right. And so for a lot of people, they think that they get to have community and connection once they are. Have earned the title of writer. But actually I think it's the opposite. I think community and connection makes it so that you can be successful as a writer.

Rachel:

I agree.

Emily:

100 agree. Yeah. Well, gosh, as evidenced last week, we could talk to you for the next three hours.

Monica Hay:

I had not realized it in 47 minutes.

Rachel:

I know.

Emily:

But to kind of transition from that. I know you have a new. A cool new matchmaking program. So can you tell folks about that, about what other stuff you offer where they can find you all those, all those great things if they're inspired today.

Monica Hay:

So, so I. Sorry. Pretty sure cat hair just like flew into my mouth. Um, okay, so my website is monicahay.com so M O N I C A H A Y.com very simple. And I used to host a bootcamp that will be available to watch on your own. In January, probably 2026. Well, sometime in 2026. Um, and that's where you can learn, really a lot of the nitty gritty around the brain science. I go into tools about how you can overcome the resistance. I talk a lot about self compassion. I talk about habits and what they can look like. I talk about celebrating your habits, which could be in a whole other podcast episode. Um, but then I also have a matchmaking program which is relatively new. I've had it for six months. And the reason I created it was because I saw what I just was talking about, that when people are connected, they implement their habits a lot faster and with a lot more. I mean, with a lot more pleasure because they have someone to share with. And so I match writers. You can either be matched with a writing friend. So the expectation is not necessarily you're swapping pages, you're just friends with them. And you can get accountability, you can get support, or you can get a critique partner, which that. The expectation there is that you swap pages with that person. And so when I tell people about this program, they're like, what the hell is this? It is a very strange program. I have not seen one like it. My surveys, they're not simple surveys. One of. One of them is over 70 questions. The other one's over 60 questions. So they're. They're quite thorough because I'm trying to find you a really solid match, not just any person. I take everything into account. Take your genre, I take your interests, I take your boundaries into account. I take your identity into account, all of it. So that's that. And yeah, if you want to follow me on Instagram as well, I'm monicahey, author on there.

Emily:

Awesome.

Rachel:

I like. I really like this. Just as an aside, I don't think I've seen a program that only matches, like, friends, which is really cool because I that, like, if you're not ready for feedback, that doesn't mean that you're. That you should wait to find a community.

Monica Hay:

Exactly. That's why I created the distinction that always confuses people. They're like, what? There's. There's two. There's two surveys. And I'm like, breathe. There's one. If you want a writing friend without swapping pages. And there's one for a writing friend who you do swap pages with. There you go. There you go.

Rachel:

Simple, easy. Yeah, that makes like a ton of sense. So I love that. Well, and I will put links for your website and your Instagram in the show notes. So if anyone wants to check those out. They will be there. Go tap on them and go be friends with Monica.

Monica Hay:

Awesome. Thank you guys for having me. Thank you.

Rachel:

Thank you. I'm sure we'll have you back to talk about any other of our million.

Monica Hay:

Topics to talk about. Yes. Awesome.

Emily:

All right, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.

Rachel:

Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.

Emily:

Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye. Bye.