Why Responsible Men Feel Depleted and How to Rebuild Without Starting Over

Most men aren’t lazy.

They’re husbands, fathers, business owners, employees, and providers trying to keep everything moving. But somewhere between work, family, and responsibility, they slowly stop taking care of the very things that allow them to show up at their best.

In this episode, Brent sits down with clinical psychologist Dr. Matthew Campbell, co-creator of Our Primal Five, to explore why so many responsible men feel exhausted, disconnected, and overwhelmed—not because they’re broken, but because they’re depleted.

Together they unpack why motivation isn’t enough, why perfection is the wrong goal, and how five simple foundations can help men build lives they can actually sustain.

Big Picture

Modern life asks more of men than ever before while making it easier than ever to neglect the basics.

Dr. Campbell explains why sleep, sunlight, movement, social connection, and healthy consumption aren’t luxuries—they’re the foundation that allows men to lead their families, careers, and lives with greater energy, resilience, and purpose.

What You’ll Take Away

• Why “depleted” is a better description than “broken.”
• Why motivation always fades—and what works instead.
• The five foundational habits every man should protect.
• How to make lasting changes without reinventing your life.
• Why small improvements consistently beat perfection.
• The ripple effect better habits have on your marriage, parenting, and work.

Why You Should Listen

If you’ve ever found yourself wondering why you’re doing everything you’re supposed to do but still feel tired, frustrated, or like you’re running on empty, this conversation is for you.

You’ll leave with practical ideas you can start applying today—and a new perspective on what it really means to build a life that lasts.

👇 Connect with Dr. Matthew Campbell
Website: https://www.ourprimal5.com
Instagram:   / ourprimal5 
Workbook: https://a.co/d/06e5ntWg

Transcript

Why Responsible Men Feel Depleted and How to Rebuild Without Starting Over

Brent Dowlen: [00:00:00] Matt, I don't think most people wake up thinking, "I need better self-care." They wake up thinking, "I got bills to pay, kids, work, my wife needs me, something broke." So before we ever talk about sleep or sunlight, why do so many responsible men slowly end up feeling depleted without even realizing it's happening?

Dr. Matthew Campbell: You know, I think we, I think we've lost sight, uh, that, that we have the same bodies as our ancestors. Nothing about that has changed, but the world we live in is so radically different that, you know, I th- I think that a lot of times we have these really important things, like you said, work and family, and we have all of these different things that just are so much, feel so much more pressing at the time.

But as we continue to not take care of these basic human, uh, functioning aspects, we start to feel more and more depleted. And, you know, ironically, uh, or I guess paradoxically, [00:01:00] it ends up coming back to affect us so that we're not able to do the things that are most important for us. 

Brent Dowlen: Most men listening to this are not lazy, not undisciplined, or unwilling to do the work.

The problem is, the work, family, bills, responsibility, and constant pressure to keep producing have a way of slowly pushing the basics to the side. You sleep a little less, you spend a little less time outside, you stop moving as much, you lose touch with people, and you consume whatever is fast, convenient, or distracting enough to get you through the day.

None of that feels catastrophic in the moment, but over time, those small compromises begin to stack up. Your energy drops, your patience gets shorter, your thinking gets heavier, and you start struggling to stay consistent, and eventually you assume the answer is more motivation, more discipline, or simply trying harder.

In today's conversation, Dr. Matthew Campbell and I are going to challenge that idea. We're going to talk about why motivation fades, [00:02:00] why slipping does not mean you failed, and why resilience is often built by getting back after it instead of getting everything right. We'll impact the five basic areas that most of us are neglecting without realizing it: sleep, sunlight, movement, social connection, and consumption, and show you how small changes can begin moving your energy, focus, mood, marriage, parenting, and ability to handle responsibilities that are already on your shoulders back in a positive direction.

This is not about building perfect health routines or adding another impossible task to your list. It's about understanding what is depleting you, taking an honest look at where you are, and finding out one practical way to start moving the chains today. We'll get into all that right after a quick word from our sponsors.

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Go to MyPillow.com/thrive. Let's get back into the show. The Driven to Thrive Broadcast: Purpose, Growth, and Lasting Impact for Men. Helping men go from living to thriving, purpose-filled, intentional lives. Welcome to the Driven to Thrive Broadcast: Purpose, Growth, Lasting Impact for Men. I'm your host, Brent Dowlen, and we help men go from living to thriving, purpose-filled, intentional lives.

Our guest today is Dr. Matt Campbell, a clinical psychologist who helps people build sustainable self-care without burnout or guilt. He [00:05:00] focuses on why motivation fades, why people struggle to stay consistent, and how simple structure rather than perfection supports mental and physical wellbeing. Dr.

Campbell is the co-creator of Our Primal Five, a framework centered on five foundational areas of health: sleep, sunlight, movement, social connection, and consumption. His work helps people feel better first so change actually becomes possible. Dr. Campbell, welcome to the show. It's great to have you today.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Man, I'm, I'm excited. I've enjoyed listening and, and excited to be on. 

Brent Dowlen: I'm, I'm gonna jump right into it because there is, I think, so much we're gonna cover today that I don't wanna waste a whole lot of time. So Matt, most of the men listening, they're not lazy. They're responsible. They show up to work. They take care of their families.

They handle what needs to be handled. So why do so many of those men s- still end up just feeling broken? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: I think we have lost sight [00:06:00] of being human. I, I think we've lost sight of the basic things that we need to function well. Uh, the way I always come back to it is that we have the same bodies as our ancestors, but we live in a very different world.

And so the things that our bodies were made for, the things that our ancestors had to do to survive, well, they're now choices for us. You know? They're now things that we have to think about, uh, and we really have to prioritize because, you know, if the fuel that we're putting in our bodies, um, is- isn't natural, it's not what they're made for, then we're going to feel depleted.

We're gonna feel overwhelmed, and we're gonna, you know, find it more and more difficult to, to, to be where we wanna be, uh, in terms of those things that we value the most. 

Brent Dowlen: It seems really odd that

We can think we're checking off the [00:07:00] list and we're still just not I don't know. It, it feels like there's so much outside of our control that, you know... I, I know a lot of guys who they, they try and eat healthy, they try and exercise, and, you know, life gets in the way. I used to exercise a whole lot more than I do now, right?

Things come up, uh, business gets busy, whatever. But if- it's so disheartening sometimes to feel like we're trying to do our best and still feel like we're just, "Meh, I shouldn't wake up- Yeah ... feeling like this." 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. Right. You know, I think there's so much there that, it, it- with what you just said, I think there's so much there.

Because, you know, kinda ironically, we, we live in a world where there's so much that affects us that's outside of our control, and, and these things that I try to emphasize so much, one [00:08:00] of the things I love about them, uh, and love focusing, um, on them, uh, one of the reasons is that they are things that we generally can, um, have control over, that we can do.

Like you said, life happens, you know, and sometimes we're not gonna hit all our marks. But hey, I mean, behavior change is strengthened when we do have slips and when we do have times that we're not able to, to hit all our marks, but we get back after it. And that's really the key, um, because that resilience, the flexibility in sticking with something even when we have, you know, a slip, even when we're not able to do things in a way, uh, or to the degree that we know, uh, is most helpful, getting back after it, uh, is the key.

It's not a failure. Um, it... And really, genuinely, behavior change is strengthened by having a slip, having a plateau, [00:09:00] and then keeping moving. That's where behavior strengthens. 

Brent Dowlen: Hmm. And we're gonna dive into that a little more, but I'm, I'm gonna get ahead of myself if I look away from my notes. It's just...

That's why I give myself notes, 'cause I, I, I get excited about the conversation and start wondering, and we'll have, like, a popcorn episode where things won't make sense at all. But no, I was, I was looking at your body of work, at least what I could find online, and one of the things I really liked is you and I have a similar philosophy in the fact that we don't think people are necessarily broken.

Now, you use the term depleted frequently in your work. So what is the difference between broken and depleted? Because I want our people to understand we're not saying there's something that's wrong with you And you use different terminology and a, and a different approach than I do. So if you explain that difference.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Well, absolutely. I, I, I think it has more to do... You know, broken, [00:10:00] man, that's rough. That sounds pretty rough, you know? That's, you know, having to, to really, you know, put ourselves together, like there's something just fundamentally, uh, uh, you know, that is, uh, is flawed or, or, or wrong with us. Uh, I think that depleted, what, what I'm getting at there is that the things that build our capacity, you know, the things that help us with energy and focus and mood and all of these things, that's what I'm talking about.

That's where I'm going, um, with this. And then we become depleted in those areas. And so we're waking up and we're, we're just exhausted. You know, we're exhausted, and we get in this pattern of, you know, ways to compensate for the fatigue. We're s- we're, we're drinking coffee, we're consuming caffeine, these energy drinks, all the you know, all these different things that we're doing that become normal, and it just starts stacking on us.

Like, what [00:11:00] becomes our normal, we're not even recognizing that it could be different, you know, that it could be better, um, for us. And, and we find ourselves, you know... Uh, I find, you know, for me, when I get depleted, my irritability just ratchets up, and things that would typically be, you know, just things, challenges, problems to solve, and things like that feel a lot more daunting.

My thinking, you know, your thinking can get much more negative. You just feel that weight, um, on your life. 

Brent Dowlen: Now, for all of you who are listening and not watching the video, that, that chuckle was him acknowledging that I was picking up my coffee cup as we were talking about- ... coffee and energy drinks, 'cause, uh, let's face it, I'm, uh, probably consuming way more than I'm actually supposed to, at least according to the numbers I've read.

Uh, so yeah, I'm, I understand this conversation really well because I probably over-substitute [00:12:00] to compensate a lot on things for, like, lack of energy and sleep and rest. But I'm curious, Matt, why is it that as men... I mean, you're a psychologist, right? So you talk to people all the time. Uh, you have a much I would say broader sampling of people than I probably will ever hope to talk to as far as in these conversations.

So why do you think it takes us as men so long to actually realize that we are depleted, right? Uh, you commented off, off camera before we started having this conversation about the fact that I say men often have to break something, like something actually has to fail before we acknowledge that we're starting to drag.

What is it that's keeping us from picking this up sooner?

Dr. Matthew Campbell: And, you [00:13:00] know, working with people over the years, I, I think some of it is, is just cultural. Um, I, you know, I think that some of it is, is just the way that so many of us are raised, you know, thinking about the things that are, you know, these basics. I, I almost think that there's a... For men, there's this, um, uh, a almost honor of sorts of, "I'm tough, I don't need this thing," and, and, and just, like, focusing on those things, uh, I think for some people can, can almost be a sign of weakness, uh, you know, to, to really, you know, focus on it.

Like, like for example, I think of this, is that, you know, when I go to, go to dinner with some buddies, you know, if, if you order the salad for dinner, how are people gonna respond? You know, like, "That's not manly," uh, you know, and that kind of thing. So I just think that there's this cultural aspect where, uh, you know, we're just supposed to, uh, be unaffected, uh, by [00:14:00] anything and not need to tend to, to things that everybody needs to attend to.

I mean, again, we just have these bodies that need... You know, have needs, have certain things. We're going to suffer if we don't take care of them 

Brent Dowlen: Yeah. Unfortunately, I probably error on the side of walking cliché frequently. Um, my, my daughters are like, "Uh, huh?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah. No, I'm fine." Like, I'm dragging my leg behind me.

"No, I'm fine. It's okay." Right? Um- Right ... I, I actually got sent home from work one night when my oldest daughter was an, a toddler still. I had taken her for a walk. I had one of those nice Kelty kid packs, right? And she loved- Uh-huh ... riding in that thing. So we, we did, like, four or five miles out in the sun and just enjoying the day, and we stopped- Uh-huh

and played in the park for a little while and came home. I was sitting on the floor, and I had to jump up to grab a, the phone or something and tore my MCL, [00:15:00] actually. Um- Oh. But I- it was just me and my toddler, so I drug myself to the couch and got her to come curl up on my lap while I turned on a Disney movie while I waited for my wife to get home.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: And so I could do something about it. But then I went to work that night. I didn't know I tore my MCL. I just know my knee hurt really bad. Right. And, uh- Right ... they ki- they kicked me out of work 'cause I was apparently dragging my leg behind me like it was broken. They're like, "You, you- Wow ... you can't work like that"- Yeah

"man." Um, and I think there's a lot of men who have that... I think you're right, that cultural mentality of just like, "No, I have to go. I have to deliver." I spent years- Yeah ... working in jobs with if you didn't work, you didn't get a paycheck. There's no sick time. There's no... right? And there's a lot of industries, in construction and stuff like that.

A lot of men, if they're not at work, they're not making money. Right. There's no cushion. There's no protection. And so, I mean, I, I spent years working [00:16:00] through being sick, being injured, uh, being hurt, and it- Uh-huh ... it didn't matter. I had to go to work. And I think culturally we've just told men over and over again, but we've also set it up as, like, there is no safety cushion for those jobs, right?

We need those jobs, man. We need our contractors. We need those, uh, laborers. We need our, uh, carpenters out there, the plumbers. We need those jobs, the electricians. We count on them, but there's, there's no safety if you're not at work. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Well, you know, I, I love that you just said that, right? The, the first part of what you said, I think is that challenge that we have, right?

Because toughness is great. You know, toughness is a good thing. You know, to be resilient, um, to do hard things, you know, th- this is good, but we do have to recognize, okay, this is unnatural, you know? Like I have a dead man's [00:17:00] walk right now, you know? 

Brent Dowlen: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: You know, I'm breaking my leg, yeah, probably, probably be a good thing to get this checked out.

But the second part of what you said I think is so important because I think that when we do-- when we talk about these things, this, you know, sleep and getting outside and moving and being connected with people and, and watching what we put in our bodies, you know, I think that sometimes the very thing you just mentioned, right?

Is it doesn't sound like it fits our life, right? It doesn't sound like it really takes into account what our experience is. You know, so it might be, I've got a job, you know, I've gotta do it. You know, I gotta support my family. I've gotta do these things. I don't have these options. And I think it's like, "Hey, that's okay."

You know? That's okay. We, we can still try to improve things. It doesn't have to be perfect. I mean, perfection's not an option anyway, so let's throw that away as a goal. I mean, you know, no [00:18:00] one, no one is, is-- can, can meet that standard. We're just focused on improvement, you know? And for someone, you know, they may have situations...

Hey, another one is this. Here in the United States, what is-- you know, if you look at the processed food versus the, the more natural foods, which is cheaper? The processed foods, right? Like, it's a little stacked against us here. And so for some people, hey, maybe they'd like to be cleaner in their dietary habits, but you know, the, the budget doesn't work for that sometimes.

Again, we're just going for improvement. We're just looking to see how can we make this better. We're not gonna be able to be perfect and hey, that's, that's the reality 

Brent Dowlen: Now, one of the things I love is you tend to push back on motivation, and a lot of people think motivation's, like, super important. I, I, I love all the stupid [00:19:00] motivational posters out there, right?

Yeah. Those motivational posters you look at and you're like, "Wow, someone let that poor cat hang in there. They suck." You know? Yeah. I just think about how mean a lot of those are, but you push back- Yeah ... against motivation in a culture that sells motivation, so why is that? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: I think it is a trap. I think it's a, a really significant trap for us to, to think that we need to be motivated to do something.

And it, and it is. I mean, it's counterintuitive for a lot of people, but, but just think of it this way. I was listening to one of the episodes, and you were talking about, uh, your exercise routine, right? It sounds like you could lift a small car or something like that. I don't know. But you know, it's like you get after it and do it.

If every time, especially maybe as you started, you know, you said, "Do I feel like doing this? Am I motivated to do this?" [00:20:00] Probably wouldn't have gotten to the point that you were really into exercise because we can't count on feelings to guide us. That is, that is the way to get ourselves into trouble, is to let our feelings decide for us what we're gonna do.

And motivation is, is an emotion. It's a feeling, and it's awesome. It's so great, uh, when we feel motivation to do something positive and healthy for ourselves, but it is fleeting. And, and the example, the easiest example I think, because it's something that all of us have done, is the New Year's resolution.

You know? And, and you mention the New Year's resolution and almost always someone kind of chuckles, right? Because we've all had that experience, "Hey, I'm gonna do this thing." Usually it's gonna be health or exercise for most of us. You know, it's gonna... Or I'm sorry, eating or exercise for most of us. So what happens, and the reason that 90% of these fail within a week or two, [00:21:00] is that, you know, we s- "Hey, I'm gonna do this thing."

That's exciting. "Hey, I'm gonna take care of myself. My body's gonna benefit from it." That's cool. Great. But what happens, so I'm excited about it at first. I'm motivated. This is gonna be great, but then the new wears off, as any emotion does. Every emotion fades. You know? They're time-limited. And so what happens in that week or two weeks is the, the, that new has worn off, so no longer, you know, am I hearing "Eye of the Tiger" in the background and just so pumped up and excited, and that's why.

We're relying on the emotion to get us there. Motivation, that's not it. You know, it's not going to help us, uh, make and sustain healthy behavior change 

Brent Dowlen: Now guys, if you didn't follow that transition with me, I understand, but I am going a specific direction. So if that seemed like a big jump from where we were to where we are now, I promise there's a [00:22:00] reason it's coming.

Because I, I agree, right? There's, there's so many of us that are like, this time of it is... I, I love the example of the New Year's resolution because I, I harp on that all the time 'cause I, I look at the numbers every year. I, almost obsessively at this point, like I look up the new numbers every single year, and have been- Yeah

for the last probably seven or eight years. Like, it just, it cracks me up every year because- Mm-hmm ... so many people are like, "I'm gonna do it this time," and, "I'm, I'm gonna get- Right ... serious about it." And, and within two weeks most of them are right back where they started, right? So- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Absolutely ... 

Brent Dowlen: I, I harp on motivation a lot- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Mm-hmm

Brent Dowlen: because I, I am, you know, I, I've been lifting for a lot of years. I started lifting I think when I was 11 or 13. Uh, my dad started taking me to the YMCA and I fell in love with it and, uh, [00:23:00] I've been a, a fairly regular meathead ever since. And so, you know, I, I don't know that I could lift a small car, but for a guy who spent years working in cubicles, I, I got pretty big for a while.

Um- But for me, it was I had just fallen in love with that at that point, right? And so many people... I'd see the transition every year at the gym. Right. All, all dedicated gym-goers hate that first two months, like January 1st to the end of February. Here's like, "Go home. Go home. Get off my bench." Right. Uh, but so many people end up back there because they think motivation is something that's gonna carry them.

Mm-hmm. Instead of... I, I found in the gym that like, for lifting as an example, I got excited after I got to the gym. Like I, I never felt good. I was like, "Oh, yeah, everything hurts. I don't wanna go to the gym today." But about 10 minutes [00:24:00] into it I'm like, "This feels good." Right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: That, that motivation seems to kick in after you start going.

But you were talking about perfection isn't the goal, right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: It's, it's moving forward, and we think we can get motivated enough to get to this bigger idea of perfection, which isn't realistic. So a lot of people seem to think they, they can just reinvent themselves, right? They get motivated with that New Year's resolution or that new goal and, you know, we're just gonna reinvent all over.

Big change. You tend to lean into a lot simpler structure. So what does it actually look for... like for someone who's already carrying a full plate to try and shift- Mm-hmm ... from motivation to, okay, how can we actually like start making little [00:25:00] forward progress here?

Was that as condescending as it sounded? Sorry. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: No, I get it. I get what you're saying, uh, for sure. So these are things that we all, you know, the things, the, the prime, our Primal 5 that I refer to. And the reason that I, you know, uh, uh, along with how I put together the workbook, the reason, um, part of the reason I put together an app is because we know these things, right?

But we need or we benefit from some structure, we benefit from understanding kind of behavior change techniques and things like that. What, what is most useful for us. Because at, like you said, it's about moving things forward. There are all sorts of ways that we can do that, right? Um, there can be just that, the focus on, okay, where am I right now?

I am my barometer for improvement, right? I, [00:26:00] I was, uh, you know, I keep referencing your podcast, but I, I was listening to one, to one of your shows and you were talking, it was the same show that you were talking about lifting and such, right? So tell me this as a, as, as someone who's a weightlifter, if someone comes into the gym and their focus is on trying to lift as much weight as you and your friends who go there all the time, if that's their focus, uh, uh, how long will they remain going to that gym?

Brent Dowlen: I think that depends on patients 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Well, that's the thing though, right? Is it's about how do I improve myself? But if those of you who've been in the gym a long time, right, and, and have gotten stronger and stronger and stronger, if they're focused on you as a benchmark, right, that's gonna be tough. But if they focus on where am I right now, and what's more [00:27:00] than that, and what's more than that, if they do it in that progressive way, then they can build.

You know, then they can move more towards that long-term goal. That's the key, is, is recognizing we are, are, uh, you know, where we are, that is our launching point. It's not where other people are. Comparison kills progress, and so it's that next step and that next step. That is what we're doing. But, you know, there are, there are a bunch of techniques.

One of them that I really encourage as an example of kind of stacking things that we do together, one of them, uh, for me is, hey, listen, c- you know, you were just lifting your coffee cup. You know, coffee's popular. We love it. I love it. But how about that morning coffee you have sitting on the porch, sitting on a chair outside, sipping your coffee in the morning, [00:28:00] okay?

Now we're stacking things. We've got the morning sunlight. Now we're doing an activity we were gonna do anyway, right? The coffee drinking. Now we're just doing it outside. You know, we're getting that, that morning sunlight that's huge for us. So I think a lot of it, you know, some of it is breaking it down into short, you know, short-term goals, just trying to focus on improvement.

And then another part of it, uh, can be what... How can I connect things that I'm already doing you know, with these healthier ways of living

Brent Dowlen: That sounds like a small piece of heaven to me. The whole sitting on the coffee, drinking a porch, or- Uh-huh ... sitting on the porch drinking coffee. Yeah. Yeah, switch that. Yeah. Uh, 'cause there, there is not ever as good a coffee as around sitting around a campfire, like camping- Uh-huh ... first thing in the morning.

Yeah. Like just sitting around the campfire- Uh-huh ... that first cup of coffee in the outdoors morning is probably the best coffee ever. You can even have crappy coffee and it's still [00:29:00] pretty good. Um- Yeah. So it's, you know- Yeah ... sitting, sitting on the front porch and drinking my coffee first thing in the morning sounds really nice to me, but I'm a country boy.

Uh, that's, that's the bread and butter. There's... My, my wife is, uh, likes to tease me 'cause I, I'm that guy who would... You see all those stupid bets on like social media. They're like, "Would you live in this cabin for a year with no technology up in the mountains for a million dollars?" Pay my bills, I'll go live there now.

That's- That sounds glorious to me. Um- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: But I love the idea of working it into stuff you're already doing. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: I was talking to, uh, a guy who- He works in... It, it's funny, he works in the field of helping people with sobriety by- Mm-hmm ... telling, not telling people not to drink. It's... He's, he's hilarious.

Duncan's a [00:30:00] hoot. But that was one of the things he talked about when he's talking to people about making this change away from alcohol is- Yeah ... having that slight change, right? You're already going to get your coffee. So while you're getting your coffee, add this new trigger, right? That says- Yeah ... I'm gonna go stand outside and drink or sit on my porch, right?

Yeah. He's talking about the importance of that little adjustment to what you're already doing for it to really connect, and it sounds like that's where we're going down here, right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. I mean, that, that's the good stuff. That's the good stuff. Rather than, than thinking it's a, it's something that we have to add on to what we're already doing, realizing we can, we can put these things together.

You know, it doesn't need to be this and then this. Sometimes we just add it into something we're already doing. Uh, we can add it, add it on there, or, you know, sometimes we can combine them. You know, [00:31:00] sometimes we can combine them. Like, one of the things that, that I love is we find the physical activity that we enjoy, right?

We find the physical activity we can enjoy, and I get it. I get it. I read the stuff. I read about how, you know, lift large objects, you know, do that. That's best for longevity. You know, I've read, you know, the walking literature, the sprint... There's a lot out this w- last week about, you know, the six sprints, 30-second sprints and these kind of things, and I love that stuff.

I absolutely love it. But if you're not doing an exercise, you know, that there's some enjoyment to then, uh, it, it, it may not last very long. You know? And that doesn't need to be like, "I'm so darn happy I'm doing this thing," right? But for someone like me that grew up playing sports, man, put me out there.

Put me on a court. Put me on a field. I love it, you know? Now, I, I'm at an age where, you know, some things like, you know, [00:32:00] playing basketball a lot probably isn't gonna be great for my Achilles, you know? But, you know, find a way to make it enjoyable. Hey, if you're gonna go for a walk, grab a friend. You know?

Then we're with a friend. We're outside. We're moving our bodies. We're combining things. So again, it, it, it doesn't have to be things individually, and a lot of times we can just, we can just, uh, you know, put it onto something we're already doing

Brent Dowlen: Well, it's funny, people don't realize that when they talk about all those workout things, and, and I'm a huge fan of your, you know, like you. Find what you enjoy, right? 'Cause that's what you're gonna do. I, I'm one of those sick individuals, I really actually like lifting heavy things. I hate cardio. Right.

Like, I, I'm that cliche shirt that says, "I hate cardio." Uh- Yeah ... I'll lift things all day. You ask me to go running, I'm like, "Yeah, no. That's not happening." Um, it's... You, you gotta [00:33:00] find what you love. I had one young man I, I consulted for as his trainer, and he was like, "I don't really like lifting weights." I was like, "Well, what do you like to do?"

He's like, "I love to ride my bike." I was like, "Great. Go ride your bike." 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. He 

Brent Dowlen: was like- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah ... "

Brent Dowlen: Really?" I was like, "Yeah, go ride your bike." I said, "And then find one place and, you know, for every mile, stop, add five pull-ups. Then on the next mile, see if you can do, like, five pull-ups on something or pushups, right?

Just- Yeah ... just add in a little something you don't necessarily like as much, add it in here or there, just to add a little resistance to the bicycling." I said- Yeah ... "You don't have to go lift big weights. You don't have to like the gym." He's like . I was like, "This isn't rocket science, really. Just- ... you love to ride your bicycle, dude.

You love to swim. Go do those things- Yeah ... and throw in this every now and then." I said, "You got a pull-up bar at house, at your house?" He's like, "Yeah." I was like, "Great. Every time you walk by it, do one." Yeah. He's like, "Really?" I was like, [00:34:00] "Yeah, just really just do something, right? We're just adding a little exercise on top of regular movement."

And that's one of the things- Yeah ... I think people miss, is we're not just... You gotta do what you're having fun doing if you're gonna keep doing it. But a lot of people don't understand this exercise, this is on top of movement in general. And you already referenced the Prime 5 once, so let's clear that up and- Yeah

and get into that, because that's part of the movement category, right? So let's... You created this framework you call the Prime 5. Why did you land on these five foundations? What are they? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. So, um, it's, it, you know, we-- it's our primal five. So we're really trying to focus on the primal aspects of, of the human experience.

What did our ancestors have to do? And of course, you could be endless with that, um, with those kind of things. But landed on these five because again and again in, in my practice, in my psychology practice, I was finding I'm working with people, and people have really im- you know, they have [00:35:00] got important stories.

They've got important experiences, stresses, things like that. But so often I was working with folks, and man, we were running uphill. You know, we-- I, I had people that I'm working with that, you know, not getting good sleep, that was just day-to-day life for them, right? You know, or, you know, being on a screen for inordinate amounts of time, that was just normal for them.

Um, you know, staying inside, not moving their bodies, all of these things, and it's like, well, if we're gonna try to work on these things you came in for that are really, really important, let's start at the ground floor. You know, let's make sure our foundation is solid because sometimes just doing those things-- First of all, it's our foundation, you know?

And so these are-- I- w- if we're gonna build anything on top of it, it better be strong But the, but the other part is a lot of times in and of themselves they can be hugely [00:36:00] beneficial, you know? You, you've mentioned it before, and it's... I mean, it's a white paper. You know, it's like a, a big issue, the epidemic of loneliness, right?

So a lot of times just simply getting connected, you know, and really feeling that connection with others from, you know, the perspective of depression, even, you know, anxiety, all these different things, that in and of itself can be therapeutic. Um, exercise has been found to be equivalent to antidepressants.

Um, you know, so there are some of these in and of themselves that can get us pretty far ahead. But for me it was just how repetitively when I was having what we call an in- the intake session, the first session with someone coming to the office, I mean, it is very rare for me to have someone come into the office and they're hitting the mark with the five things: getting enough sunlight, um, getting good sleep, moving their bodies, [00:37:00] having meaningful connection with others, and then being really attentive to their consumption.

And, and obviously there's physical consumption, right? There's what we eat, what we drink, what we put in our bodies. But then these days, the, the mental consumption is enormous because of, of all of the things that we have available to us te- yeah, absolutely. There is that tool, the phone, that hey, there are great parts to it, right?

There are great things about it, but it is an absolute time vacuum and there are so many things that can be problematic and we, and we know that. I mean, the research is very clear, um, about how detrimental, uh, it can be 

Brent Dowlen: Now, a lot of people get into this whole busy thing, and we're gonna start working that way with it.

So if somebody listening is feeling overwhelmed, right? You know, you're, you're talking about the five, and I [00:38:00] wholeheartedly agree with you on these five core tenets. I, I think they're incredibly just... If you don't have that sorted out, you, you can't start sorting out much else. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: Because you can't eliminate things that are having that big of an impact, uh, for stuff that's superficially over that.

But if someone's- Mm-hmm ... feeling overwhelmed and going, "Well, I don't have time to fix five different areas of my life." Mm-hmm. But where is... What's the one you would start with? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: It really depends on the person. It really genuinely does. I mean, it's... I think, I think a first step for all of us is taking stock of where we are.

I, I was mentioning earlier, like, if someone's gonna start working out or doing any of these things really, they, they are their own barometer for success and improvement, okay? It's like, am I moving forward in these ways? Similarly, so often we get [00:39:00] in our lives, and we lose sight of where we are with things.

Like, you know, as I was mentioning earlier, we are accustomed to depletion because that's all we know. We think that's normal. I mean, I can't tell you the number of people who have told me, "Ah, I don't need as much sleep as other people." You know? And in some cases, that may be true, but the majority of people, that's not the case at all.

It's just they're accustomed to that fatigue, right? You know, it's just waking up groggy and it taking, you know, a while until that caffeine really settles in, um, you know, to be awake. That's normal, you know? You know, or that afternoon fatigue. That's normal. Um, that is their normal. That's what they know.

And, and that's all we have to base things on, right? You know, where people who kind of feel crappy, um, because of their diet, you know, and they kind of feel, you know, they feel that fogginess. They feel all sorts of things with it. That's their normal. They don't realize [00:40:00] how different it can be, um, the more clean, um, their eating habits are.

And so it really begins with taking stock, you know, taking stock of where I am, you know, or where I'm sorry, where am I in terms of how much am I getting outside? You know, what is my sleep looking like? Uh, what... You know, am I around people? Am I... Do I have people who I'm, I'm connected to, right? Like, it's a meaningful relationship.

Am I moving my body? And then what am I putting in my mind and body? Like, that's where... I mean, it's really taking stock of that, and then when we, when we find them, you know, you can take one of two approaches. You can take one that's, you know, good to get started on because it's relatively easy, you know, the coffee in the morning can be one of those.

Um, you know, or it may be, where do I have the most deficiency, right? Where am I? Am I, am I just not around other people? You know, do I not feel connected with them? That's a pretty important [00:41:00] one to get, get addressed and, and try to get that improvement going on. So again, just really depends on us, where we are, um, and if we wanna take the approach of, you know, build momentum early, um, or I want to attack the thing that, you know, is my, is my weak area.

Brent Dowlen: Now, there, there's a lot of things that are easy to say, right? It's, it's easy for us to sit here and talk about things like this. But I mean, you spend your career helping people understand how they function, helping people work through different concerns and issues in their life. But at the end of the day, right, you're married, you have kids- Okay

and you have the same challenges as the rest of this. Uh, so how did this principle evolve in your life, and how do you apply this in your life so it's sustainable to work a full-time job and to be a family guy, take care of yourself, stuff like that? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: [00:42:00] Well, it, you know, for me, I actually, uh, had this experience.

So when I was, um, godly, probably 10, 15 years ago, it was when, uh, P90X was probably at its peak, right? And so I get into P90X, and man, I, I just, I just got into it. It was, you know... It-- I, I, I was all in. I was all in. And, and along with that, I changed my diet, um, to where I was eating pretty clean, really clean, actually, at that time.

And so I was doing that, and I had this experience where, um, I had this experience where after eating cleanly for a really long time, I went to a steakhouse, you know, with some family, and I had this really rich, rich steak, you know, and, and these awesome veggies that, you know, were probably cooked in all sorts of oils and stuff like that, right?

And my body told me, "You were not [00:43:00] made for that kind of food," right? But it was such a good experience in terms of it was just, you know... It, it just was a light bulb moment for me 'cause it was like it showed me, you know, like when you eat, when you consume like your body was made for or in a way like your body was made for, you function this way.

But like, you know, it's like allergic reactions. If you're constantly exposed to the allergen, you feel crappy, right? But if you're n- if you're not exposed to the allergen for a while, and then you are, it's a very strong reaction, right? It's a really strong reaction because you've been without it, and that's the way I found processed food was for me, you know?

Is it's like I learned really quick that's not what my body was made for. Um, and like you, like one of the things that I've done is I stack things. [00:44:00] Again, my dogs, I love my dogs. Um, I'm gonna walk 'em in the morning, you know? I, I'm gonna do that. That's gonna get me moving. I am outside, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting some sunlight early on.

Um, you know, that's huge. Um, my kids play sports. Um, that's one of the things. And one of the things that I notice, I don't do this as much, I just love being outside, um, with their stuff, but I'll see some of the other parents. I think it's fantastic. You know, they'll come out. They'll take their kid to a practice, game, whatever.

Hey, when they're not playing, they're walking. You know, when they're not playing, they're doing other things, and so they're, they're, they're combining it in their life. So they're not missing anything. Um, you know, they're not missing any responsibilities. They're just taking care of themselves, you know, when, when the opportunity arises.

I think a lot of the time And this isn't popular, but I think a lot of times we tell ourselves [00:45:00] we're more busy than we really are. And it's not that we're not busy, it's not that. But if we really took stock of how much time that our brains are being sucked into these screens, you know, if we really took a step back, a lot of times because we're depleted, we're not very efficient.

You know, we're, you know... So there, again, people don't like hearing that, but, but typically for most of us, you know, I'm not talking for everybody, but for most of us, there's more time there than we think 

Brent Dowlen: I experiment and I'm always experimenting with efficiency, right? I try to be more efficient, cram... Part of that's just I'm always trying to cram more into one day, right?

Uh, a- as you know, building a business, uh, being your own boss is often busier than working for somebody else. And so, like, there isn't a whole lot of time off, so I'm always trying to cram [00:46:00] more in and cram more in. But I've always liked background music, and I've always had stuff like that going on, or like I'll listen to podcasts in the background when I'm working.

I didn't realize how inefficient it was for me to do it until I actually started listening to, uh... I found a YouTube channel that just has binaural beats at a certain frequency And the difference in my efficiency when I'm listening, when I, I put on these headphones, which take out the rest of the background anyway, and turn that on in my ears- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah

Brent Dowlen: I am so much more focused that I easily cut down projects that would take me an hour, I do in 30 minutes. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Sure. 

Brent Dowlen: Right? And so I'm always experimenting, trying to find those things because you try and cram me in. I don't wanna be in my studio for 12 hours when I can go spend time with my daughters or- Right

go hang out with my wife [00:47:00] or something like that. Um, so we're always playing with those things, stacking things, what makes me... If I do this first thing in the morning, if I attack this at the fullest part of my day, right? 

Mike Lindell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: I think we get into this productivity mindset where we have to do more, we have to do more, and we let some of these baseline things go.

But how do these baseline things play? Because as we're trying to get more stuff done, right? Because let's face it, as men, we're told our productivity is our value for the most part. Sure. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Sure. 

Brent Dowlen: I think... Now, that's, I know that's a generalized statement and we can't generalize everything, but in general, as men, we, whether we're actually being fed that or not, equate our productivity and our ability to inc- make, produce income with our value directly, and so we start looking for those shortcuts, right?

I was looking for ways to be more efficient, to get more done [00:48:00] in the same amount of time. Why? 'Cause it produces more, which makes me more money, right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: We do all these things to try and become these guys we are- And we start to deplete ourselves, but we don't see we're depleting ourselves. So how does this baseline, these primal five, impact this whole conversation we started with men depleting themselves without even realizing they're depleting themselves?

Dr. Matthew Campbell: You know, when you were just saying that, uh, I had a bunch of thoughts, but it's... You know, I think that I had this experience that was really, um, uh, really powerful for me when I was in graduate school. It was my first year of graduate school. And first year probably across the board, I would imagine for people who are in different graduate schools or what have you, your first year is brutal.

Your [00:49:00] first year, they are throwing so much at you, usually classwork and stuff like that, but it's harder than I've ever done before, and so much of it. It's just, you know, it's a lot. And I... And there was this guy, um, Billy Barrios. He was just one of the most incredible humans I've ever met, and Billy was one of the professors.

And, uh, he did meditation. He taught, like, these meditation groups. He led these all sorts of meditation. And that was really interesting to me, right? Like, and here's this guy, he's an expert. I was, I was like, "Hey, Billy, uh, you know, my second year, I am gonna... You know, I'm gonna get after it. I'm gonna do these groups with you."

And he had this really soft voice. Uh, a- and he goes, "Matt, your first year is the exact time to do these." And, and the message he was communicating at the time, I thought he was crazy, right? 'Cause I was like, "Man, he doesn't remember how busy this is." But what he was basically saying is, when you take care of yourself, right, when you get [00:50:00] resets, you're gonna be so much more efficient than you otherwise would be.

'Cause now I have the resources, I have the capacity to focus and to lock in. So often we think more, more time, you know, more... And that is what is gonna make it better for us. Well, efficiency has to do with the capacity we have to do something. And if I'm depleted in all these areas, I'm not gonna be very efficient, and so it's gonna take more time, which is gonna make me less attentive to these things that dep- that, that, that can give me s- you know, more, more focus, more, uh, efficiency.

We just get in a cycle with that, just more and more and more, and we're not taking care of the basics that are gonna make us more efficient to begin with

Brent Dowlen: So in case people are not following this along closely 'cause[00:51:00] 

I don't know if like my brain is like having ADHD today because- Sure ... I, I feel like I- my brain is skip- not skipping around as well or is skipping around more than it should, right? In your Primal 5 framework, you center on sleep, sunlight, movement, social connection, and consumption, and we've talked a little bit about all that.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Sure. 

Brent Dowlen: These five core areas

A lot of us will drop, I'll say a minimal of two of those- 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Uh-huh ... 

Brent Dowlen: on a regular basis. They'll start to take less priority. We'll start to not pay attention to them. I know, like for me, I'm not getting the sunlight I should. Uh, I... All summer it's... Here, here it is, like we're at the end of July, and since like late [00:52:00] April, I was like, "I really need to clean up my back deck," 'cause I have a table and everything out there and I love sitting outside anyway.

I need to clean out my back deck so I can work at my back table for at least an hour a day to make sure I'm actually getting outside and getting out of my studio, getting some air, some sunlight. It's late July, I still haven't done it. It just has not happened, um, because we compromise. We skip on these things.

It's like, well, is that really worth X amount of hours of a day or two days to make sure that that's all cleaned up and, you know, things got stacked up in the winter kinda thing? Is it worth that time or am I losing time doing this, right? We find that justification- Right ... we find that thing, and we start to skip out.

We stop connecting socially with people because we gotta work more, we gotta produce more, right? And I've gotta take care of the wife, and I got the kids, and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I know there's a lot of guys out there [00:53:00] who are struggling and depleting in one, if not multiple areas of this- Yeah ... uh, conversation.

And if somebody finishes this episode and wants to make a change, not next Monday, not after vacation- Yeah ... but today, what would you advise them to do? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: I, I would advise them personally, like my, my choice would be where are we having the hardest time? Like, where are we most efficient or, or what are we struggling with the most?

Let's pick that and let's set a goal for a week. You know, how can I improve that this week? You know, what are the things that I can do to move forward in that regard? Like that's-- that would be my recommendation. And the other thing is, and, you know, I think that was my fault that you said your, you know, attention went awry [00:54:00] 'cause that was a long-winded answer.

But it's if we can stick with it, if we can try to stick with this, then I think that's when we really experience the benefits because we know from the research how important these things are, right? Uh, it's not theory. You know, it's not theory that these things are important. We know them clearly. But I would really wanna focus and just, okay, I'm gonna dedicate myself to this.

I'm gonna dedicate myself this week, you know, to reaching out and being around people, and maybe it's giving myself the opportunity to make friends, you know, or to connect with people or maybe it's established friends. You know, I'm gonna make it a priority to do something, you know, with them. Maybe that's it.

Um, or maybe it's that morning sunlight we were talking about. But I'm gonna make a move in one of these areas, not all of them. That's why we did the workbook in a week-by-week way, you know. And I did a work- we did [00:55:00] a workbook because I don't want this just to be like intellectual discussion, you know. I d- I don't want it to just be a talking point of, hey, these things are important.

I wanna... I, I'm trying to encourage people to apply it, to get after it

Brent Dowlen: I don't want you to think it, it was your answer. Um, my brain is going like 20 different ways I wanna take this conversation all at the same time because there's so much... You and I are aligned on, on these core principles, like that- that's one of the reasons that we connected originally, and I think I could do a single to a double or triple show on each one of these core things by themselves.

In fact, I've probably- There's a lot to it ... I'm probably sure I have done single episodes on a couple of these, um, because I agree that they're so important, right? [00:56:00] I, I think that as men we undervalue them. So it wasn't that your answer was long-winded, it's you're saying things and my brain's going, "But we could go this way and this way and this way and this way."

And I, I'm having a little ADHD brain today. It's like I'm looking at my notes going, "That was a great question" before we got to this point in the conversation, "but now what I really wanna ask is this, and when I..." So I- I 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: gotcha ... 

Brent Dowlen: it's, being a podcast host, that's one of the hardest things is I get into these conversations and I'm like, "But I got about four more hours worth of conversation I wanna do today" uh, because I start talking to you guys and I enjoy the conversation, and I think of all these directions that I started in and then all the directions I wanna go.

It, it's hard for me to stay focused some days. I'm like, "But I..." 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Hey, I mean, you're into your, what you do, right? That's good. 

Brent Dowlen: I, I absolutely love what I do, but it just, it, it's my brain every now and then. Some days I have really good discipline on it, and other days my [00:57:00] brain's like, "Squirrel. Let's go down that rabbit hole."

"Let's go down that rabbit hole." I, I got off talking, uh, Italian recipes with one of my guests for 20 minutes one day. Turns out we both love to cook- Oh ... and yeah, we started swapping Italian recipes. That was a whole segment I had to cut out of like a two-hour interview. Um- ... my wife's like, she was engineering for me at the time, she's like, "Uh, back on track, baby.

Back on track. Come on." Uh-huh. Uh-huh. "I normally don't interrupt you, but..." Uh, so if someone wanted to commit to these principles for, say, the next month, right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: They wanted to pick one, one thing, and, and guys, you know me, I'm, I'm always pick that one thing, right? So pick one thing in each area: sleep, sunlight, movement, social connection, and consumption.

Pick one small thing in each thing, and really, you can do them almost all at the same time except for sleeping. If they wanted to pick one small thing from each of these five core areas [00:58:00] and commit to that for the next month, what kind of changes do you think they would notice? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: I love that you said a month.

You know, I love that you're mentioning giving it time, right? Because that's... It's, it's a, it's a long, you know, it's a short-term, long-term thing is what we're dealing with. And, and I know you've discussed that before. It's, it's just that, you know, long-term benefit that we're focused on. They're gonna have more energy.

They're gonna be more locked in, and they're gonna be able to focus better. Um, their bodies are just gonna feel better, you know? Whether it's fatigue or GI, you know, they're gonna benefit from that perspective. And I, you know, I mentioned the GI, but I'm talking about the emotional, the mental health, you know?

Hey, listen, if you get off the screens and you stop seeing, you know, terrible, horrible things in the world constantly, you're gonna be less anxious, right? Or, you know, if [00:59:00] you're, if you're caught in the comparison trap, you're, you know, you're gonna not... You're gonna feel better about yourself, uh, when you're not watching people's highlight reels all the time.

And so, you know, these kind of things we're gonna... You know, it's r- uh, really across the board. Energy, emotional regulation, handling feelings in our daily life, that's gonna get better. You know, so many of these different things and, and anxiety, depression, stress management, all of them get better. And then obviously there are huge health benefits.

You know, that I'm just speaking to the emotional mental health aspect. Um, but really it really genuinely cuts across the board. 

Brent Dowlen: Okay, I wanna translate this one other direction before we leave this concept or this idea we're talking about, about how this would affect you if you did this for a month.

Because let's face it, most... I have a lot of family men who listen to this who are working hard and trying to take care of their families. They're focused on that provider role [01:00:00] And most of us do not actually care about ourselves enough to do something for ourselves. So let's translate to what kind of ripple effect would this have on, say, if, if I did this, if I committed to this for a month, what kind of ripple effect do you think this would play out in my marriage and me as a father and my immediate world, the people I'm around all the time?

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Absolutely. I think you'd have more patience with your kids. Um, I think your kid and maybe your wife, who knows? Hey, you know. Uh, but I, I, I think what you'd find, I think you're showing your kids an example of what it looks like to take care of themselves. So maybe we can get out of a little bit of those ideas that, you know, um, that, that y- you're always fine.

You never acknowledge anything. You know, hey, you know, you see that people need to take care of themselves. I really think that at your [01:01:00] job you're gonna find you can focus better. You know, I think you're gonna find that you can focus better and that you can be a lot more efficient, um, with what you do.

And I think that when life happens, and we have challenges, and there are things that affect us, frustrate us, what have you, you have more resources to be able to handle them. It's not gonna feel like as big of a deal. It's gonna seem more manageable. Everything feels more overwhelming when we're tired.

Everything, you know, feels more overwhelming when we're already having, you know, that painful emotion that's just sitting there or just that depletion

Brent Dowlen: Now Matt, you, you mentioned you have a book for people who wanna dive deeper into the work or... And I love the fact that you did a workbook instead of just a book book. I, I- Yeah ... I, I'm such a more hands-on person. I love the idea of a workbook. So if people wanna learn more about the Primal 5 or actually, like, have something to help them [01:02:00] put this into practice, tell us a little bit about your workbook and where to find it 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah.

So we have the workbook. It's, it's out there. We have a website, ourprimal5, uh, you know, with the number five. But it... And it has, it 

Brent Dowlen: has- I've got that up on the screen if you're watching on video, guys 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: And so you can look at the information there. There's links for the book or the workbook there, the app.

There's a quiz that you can take to, to kind of do that appraisal to kind of see where I am in these different areas. There's a newsletter. So that's kind of the, the hub for it. It has a link to the Instagram page. Um, it, you know, so we have those resources, and that's kind of the, the central part to it.

But yeah, it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. And, and you and I seem like we're like-minded in this way. What I have found is that either people have no self-development type of books or, you know, things there, [01:03:00] or they have, like, 20 or more, right? And I, uh, the reason I wanted to do a workbook, like you were saying, is that I want to apply this, right?

Like, this is stuff that is so important that it, it... And it's important to actually do it rather than just talk about it as an idea. Because I think too often when we're trying to improve ourselves and do things, we stay in the realm of ideas and what's interesting, like coffee table talk, and we don't do enough, um, about putting it in motion

Brent Dowlen: What's coming down the pipe, pipe for Matt? What, what do you got next? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Man, what I have next, and I, I've made reference to it, I'm excited in it, about it, it is almost, almost ready to release. It, it should be out by the time that this airs, but is an app. And, and the reason I've been so excited about the app is that I feel like whatever we can do to give some more [01:04:00] instant feedback, you know, and kinda get a score, an appraisal, and some guidance on, "Hey, when this thing is good," you know, "When sleep is good, this is where your mood is," and things like that.

Just trying to give b- you know, more feedback and more something instant to folks, and guidance that's right there. I, I think that that's, like most things with healthy behavior, we're just... You know, what we're dealing with is short-term versus long-term, you know? And, and as humans, one of the things that can get us off track is, you know, we're short-term by nature, unless we're really trying to do different.

You know, it's maximize pleasure, minimize pain in the moment. Um, we're real short-term with that. We live in a world where there are so many easy buttons, you know? And so I just... Let's, um, my idea, my hope behind the app is let's give something where we're getting immediate feedback. Where does this put us?

You know? And, and [01:05:00] again, are we improving? Are things getting better? Where are we having the biggest strengths and deficits? So yeah, man, that's what I'm excited about right now. 

Brent Dowlen: Did you gamify healthy behavior? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: You called me out, man. 

Brent Dowlen: You nailed 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: it. 

Brent Dowlen: Nailed 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: it. That's why I had the score on it and all that. I just, you know, I'm so passionate about this.

I know. And I just, you know, I, I wanna do it in a way that is how, how can... You know, how can we put it there? How can we give short-term feedback? You know, we know how important these things are. We, we live in a time where we have to choose to do them, and I can't emphasize that enough. People are not lazy, you know?

They have... Where our ancestors didn't have to choose to do these things, we have to choose them. And let's be honest, there are a lot of more fun things to do in the present moment than these things. I, it... And, and that's the challenge. But we need to do them. So let's... W- [01:06:00] however we can encourage or create structure for people to do it, I, I'm there for it.

Brent Dowlen: You know the hardest lift in the gym? Do you know what it is? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: No, no. 

Brent Dowlen: It's the 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: deadlift. The first? Rep? It's the deadlift. The deadlift? Okay. 

Brent Dowlen: You know why it's the hardest lift? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: I 

Brent Dowlen: do not. Because it's the only really hard lift with no consequences if you miss 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Really? 

Brent Dowlen: Right? If you step out on a squat with a load on your back and it goes south, it can staple you to the ground.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Okay. 

Brent Dowlen: Right. If you unrack a bench and you don't get it off your chest, we've all seen the videos, right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: Right. A deadlift has no eccentric motion. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Okay. 

Brent Dowlen: You can just let go. So, like, you can get part of the way up, and if it's hard, your brain's just like, "This sucks. Drop it," [01:07:00] and it's not gonna hurt you.

Sure. Right. And, and I th- I think it's become the same thing with these behaviors that you're talking about, right? You, you said, you know, our ancestors didn't have a choice. This is, this was just life. Now we're actively having to choose to do things that we should just be doing by default. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: And so I, I love the idea of the gamifying it, 'cause I, I think more...

We, we need more things where we're gamifying healthy habits and benefits. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: Uh, I'd love to see more people on social media taking advantage of like the... I know there's, there's a, like, some... I know there's some app out there where, like, you commit to doing X amount of workouts and you put money on it.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. 

Brent Dowlen: And, and if you don't do them, you have to, like, pay. Right? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: That's kinda cool. 

Brent Dowlen: People like consequences, like negative reinforcement. Yeah. But I, I think those places where people are gamifying their workouts and getting that positive feedback on [01:08:00] going to make healthy choices like, "Today, I ate this," and people are like- Yeah

"Yeah, you ate this. Woo." Right? Or, "Yeah, you got that workout. Yeah." Right? I think we need it these days, and so I'm, I'm excited that you have this app coming out. That's a great, great option. Um, we're addicted to the, like, little likes and yay. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: Right. 

Brent Dowlen: Right. That, those dopamine 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: hits. Yeah. Um- I mean, a- and you know, and there is this part of it, is that, I mean, there's this, uh, you know, there could easily be viewed as a contradiction between saying, "Get off the screens," and then, you know, saying, "Hey, here's the screen," you know?

I get it, but I, I accept the fact that it's part of our culture, it's part of our life, you know? 

Brent Dowlen: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: We could use less of it, for sure. But hey, it's out there. We just have to figure out how to work with it. 

Brent Dowlen: Um- Well, it's, it's like AI. You can hate AI or love AI, but the genie's not going back in the bottle.

Dr. Matthew Campbell: No, it's there. 

Brent Dowlen: Right? It's there. Our, our phones are here. 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: That's right. Yeah. [01:09:00] How are we gonna manage it? Fighting against it isn't gonna do us any good. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Matt, if somebody remembers one thing from this conversation a year from now, not about health, not about sleep, but about just living well as a hu- husband, father, a man, what do you hope that one thing is? 

Dr. Matthew Campbell: That's a tough question 'cause there's so many things. Um, but if I had to say anything, it, move the chains.

Just you move the chains. It's about you making an improvement. It is not about you hitting all the notes. It's not about you getting it perfect or, or being the best, um, that you see out there. Just keep moving the chains. And that's, that would be the one thing 

Brent Dowlen: Guys, for myself and Dr. Campbell, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Be better tomorrow because of what you do today, and we'll see you on the next one. The Driven [01:10:00] to Thrive broadcast: purpose, growth, and lasting impact for men. Helping men go from living to thriving, purpose-filled, intentional lives