Happy By Mistake Podcast! Building an Abundant Mindset for Life and Business

Authentic Leadership and New Leaders with Jacqueline LaCasse

• Corey • Season 1 • Episode 7

Share episode

In episode 7 of The Happy By Mistake pod, I engage with leadership expert Jaclyn Lacasse to explore the complexities of transitioning into leadership roles. We discuss the common challenges faced by new leaders, the importance of emotional intelligence, and the distinction between management and leadership. Jaclyn shares valuable insights on developing leadership potential, navigating workplace dynamics, and the significance of authenticity and presence in effective leadership. The conversation emphasizes the need for self-compassion, mindfulness, and the role of mentorship in fostering successful leaders.

Takeaways

  • New leaders often struggle with the shift from expert to leader.
  • Emotional intelligence is crucial for effective leadership.
  • Leadership is about inspiring and influencing others, not just managing tasks.
  • Authenticity in leadership builds trust and rapport with teams.
  • Self-compassion is essential for new leaders to thrive.
  • Presence and mindfulness enhance a leader's effectiveness.
  • Navigating complex dynamics requires understanding both employee needs and organizational goals.
  • Charismatic leadership can overshadow the importance of building strong teams.
  • Leaders should celebrate mistakes as learning opportunities.
  • Every new leader should have access to coaching and mentorship.



Find Jacqueline on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jacqueline-lacasse-b94186127

If you are curious about my coaching, book a 30 minute free consultation with me here:
https://www.castleroadcoaching.com/book-with-me


Corey The Coach (00:02.147)
All right, everybody, welcome to the Happy by Mistake podcast, building an abundant mindset for life and business. In this podcast, I tackle common challenges and themes that come up in the coaching that I do with small business owners, with entrepreneurs. And for the most part, I do that by having free flowing dialogue with an expert on the topic.

And today I have the great pleasure of welcoming my friend and colleague, Jaclyn Lacasse. Is it Lacasse? I always forget Lacasse. Welcome, Jaclyn.

Jacqueline LaCasse (00:34.872)
Yes it is. Thank you very much, Corey. It's a pleasure to be here.

Corey The Coach (00:42.419)
So today we are going to dive into Jaclyn's ocean of experience helping new managers navigate the complexity of their new role to maximize their potential in a minimal amount of time and to head off some of the challenges that new managers face. This podcast, this episode probably speaks to young leaders.

people who are aiming at moving up the ladder, to speak, older employees who are now moving into their first managerial or executive position. Now that being said, I would also argue that this conversation will be very helpful for anybody who just wants to improve their leadership skills in general. If this sounds like you, then stick around, hit that like and subscribe button and enjoy. So.

Before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about my friend Jacqueline. She's a bilingual, professional, goal -centric certified coach from University of Concordia. She has a master's in leadership and education from the University of Ottawa. She spent 30 years as a teacher, as a manager, as a leader, and nine of those she spent as an academic dean of a C -JEP in Quebec.

Her specialty as a coach and why she's appearing on this podcast today is because it's really about accompanying people, preparing for, or transitioning into new leadership roles. Okay, Jacqueline, so let's dive into this thing called leadership and let me start by asking you how your interest in this topic developed. And here, I think I'm specifically referring to...

the challenges new leaders, new managers face when they take on a leadership position and sort of those best practices and tips for maximizing their success in that role as quickly as possible.

Jacqueline LaCasse (02:48.016)
Okay. Well, it's just so important. It's such a big need. Many people from one day to the next, they were a professional, they were a social worker, they were a teacher, they were an accountant, and all of a sudden they're a manager and they're the leader of a team and they have these decisions. Everything is, there's such an important shift in mindset and they gain so many complexities and responsibilities.

And they don't always have the support they need for this big change. So that's why I love that it's my coaching niche. And it's always been a part of me, though. It's naturally evolved. Because as you said at the beginning, leadership is a very general term. So it's not just someone in a specific hierarchical position in an organization. Everyone has leadership. And even as a teacher, I like to build the leadership of my students. It's all about

bringing out the best in people and helping them achieve their full potential. So I've always been in that mode of mentoring, coaching, accompanying people, asking the tough questions and helping them do their best.

Corey The Coach (04:04.765)
And that's how I know you. That's a part of who you are. If you had to narrow it down to one challenge, what from your experience do you believe is the biggest or maybe the most common challenge new leaders face?

Jacqueline LaCasse (04:25.42)
One is tough. Will you allow me to cheat and give two? That's why I love you. We're small, I'll pay you afterwards. The first one is a bit what I mentioned in my intro. Often someone is promoted to a management or leadership position because they're an expert in their field. But what got them there isn't necessarily going to help them as a leader.

Corey The Coach (04:30.643)
Absolutely, for a small for a small penalty

Jacqueline LaCasse (04:54.234)
So that's a big challenge to realize it's not anymore about your expertise in one field or another. And even when you become a leader or manager, some of your strengths can hinder you, especially if you overuse them. So that's a big challenge. And the other thing I would say is social and emotional intelligence. So people are coming in and they're great at what they do.

But leading is about working with people and getting people to work together on different things. whenever something goes wrong, it started with a problem in a relationship with a communication not understood, with someone not happy, like not motivated at work. So that's what I would recommend that people work on when they become...

when they get these positions, your social and your emotional intelligence.

Corey The Coach (05:50.377)
Mm

Yeah. Now you mentioned that some of what they were good at can actually be a weakness as they move up into leadership. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you an example from my own life. So the very first time that I was leading a team, similar situation, I was very good at what I was doing. I was promoted into a leadership position.

And one of the things that upper management liked about me is that I could really focus and solve problems. I could identify what wasn't working and solve the problem. So I moved very mechanically into like sort of analyzing what was working and what was doing well and what was not working. And then I dived in to fix what was not what was working. And I did so without enough

social sensitivity. And in addition, I remember this moment in particular where one of my people came up to me and said, Are you mad? And I said, No.

why do you think I'm mad? And she goes, well, you're kind of scowling. And I realized that I had this face that when I was concentrating, I still have it. When I'm concentrating, I'm scowling. And so that was another learning for me. So anyways, there's an example of it. Could you speak a little bit more to that and how you've seen that sort of play out?

Jacqueline LaCasse (07:29.028)
and we see it played all the time. So among the biggest mistakes is micromanaging, because that's not a leader's job. It can make employees feel that the leader doesn't trust them, the leader doesn't think they can do the job, and it just makes too much work for the manager. It's not his job to be doing the jobs of everyone below him. That's why there are other people in the structure. And this belief also.

Corey The Coach (07:36.551)
Hmm. Yep.

Jacqueline LaCasse (07:57.948)
And it can be a limiting belief that the boss has to be the fixer, the savior, has to have all the answers. That's just putting too much pressure on your shoulders, especially when you're new. So even if you were really good at what you did, the team that you're leading now, that maybe isn't its only role, it might have other roles, and you don't need to know everything about everyone's job or role.

Corey The Coach (08:04.521)
Mm

Jacqueline LaCasse (08:24.326)
to be able to lead the team and to attain your objectives and to be really aligned with your organization's vision. So the new leader just has to take some pressure off their shoulders and say, don't have to have the right answer. What you have to have, is the right question. You have to be there and ask the right questions so that the team together finds the solution. And actually,

Corey The Coach (08:45.095)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (08:53.146)
It makes your job easier once you realize that you're not the one who has to fix everything. But we tend to make things complicated, don't we? We tend to put all the pressure on us, and we tend to think, I have to have the answer, I have to be the one to do this. And when you let go of that, everything flows a little better.

Corey The Coach (09:13.769)
Well, not only that, the people beneath you come into their own, right? Because you're not, you are giving them leeway and you're giving them opportunity to flex their strengths and their unique way of doing things. Yeah, and that was a lesson I had to learn on the fly because I wasn't given any management training. I wasn't giving any leadership training, but yeah, mean,

Jacqueline LaCasse (09:19.9)
yes.

Corey The Coach (09:42.385)
It sort of brings to mind this idea of the difference between management and leadership, right? So maybe is that something that you could sort of define for us just in your head, the way that you look at it, what's the difference between managing and leading?

Jacqueline LaCasse (09:47.439)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (10:01.616)
Okay, well, I'll get out of my head and I'm going to start with a quote, because I like what Peter Drucker says that managing is about doing things right and leading is about doing the right thing, because I find that sums it up really well. So managing is about getting things done and getting them done well. We're talking about efficiency, productivity, planning, organization, organizing, control.

mechanisms assessing, redirecting and readjusting afterwards. So you manage projects, manage schedules, manage budgets, but in my opinion, you do not manage people. When you're talking about people, then you're talking about leadership. Leadership is influencing others and I'd even go further. In my mind,

Corey The Coach (10:50.473)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (10:59.458)
Leadership is about inspiring others. It's about inspiring others to action towards a common goal. So now we're talking about vision. And basically when you see it like that, leadership, it's all a question of relationships and communicating. And it's bringing out, as I said in the beginning, bringing out the best in people and building teams. That's what leaders do.

Corey The Coach (11:02.536)
Mm.

Corey The Coach (11:26.733)
So one of the things that new leaders find challenging, I think, is first of all, finding the balance between those two things. But also, sometimes they're, maybe they're not ready to lead, right? Maybe they're ready to manage. Maybe they're not ready to lead. And the question then becomes, how do you develop?

some of that leadership potential in yourself as you're taking on that role. Do have any insights around that? It's a big question.

Jacqueline LaCasse (12:05.498)
big question, yeah. I think when you start with the thing that there isn't one and one only right and good leadership model. There are lots of different models. So if you think that the only way to be a good leader is to be like such a leader that you know with such a boss that you had, well then you might be putting too many

too high expectations because I think the most important thing is authentic leadership and being yourself. And in being yourself, you also have to forgive yourself. You're learning this. So it's about building teams and leadership starts with leading oneself. And when you realize, OK, maybe I don't know it all now, but I have been a leader in the past. I'm sure everyone, I'm sure at one point has led a class project or a committee...or even just influenced family members and friends into rallying around a common cause or something, that was leadership. So if you start with the basics, with the trusting yourself and being in relationship with people, then you can work on all the rest. So you do though, you do have to know yourself. You have to know your strengths and you have to know your weaknesses and build upon your strengths, start with those... bring out what helps most and what you're doing and then identify what you have to go work on more. If you need to work on your negotiating skills or delegating or some other aspect of leadership, you have the time to do it slowly.

Corey The Coach (13:48.519)
Yeah, and there's a couple of things in there that I want to touch on because I think that authenticity piece is really, important and can be a, as you suggested, it's kind of a compass point for you in terms of.

What do I do in this situation? Be authentic. If you don't know the answer, say you don't know the answer, but you find out, right? If something is bothering you, sit down with somebody and say, you know, something's bothering me about what's happening right now. Can we talk about it? You know, just coming from an authentic place, I think really, really matters, regardless, as you put it, the leadership model that you're, you're saying the other piece that I wanted to just jump into for a second there is you say, forgive yourself for making mistakes.

One of the things that I preach a lot is self -compassion is not a weakness. So being hard on yourself is not a strength. You're not being tough. Self -compassion is about being strong. And the reason that is, is because what you do, what you model ripples out to everybody else around you, right? So if you're super hard on yourself as a new leader, a new manager, everybody else is going to be super tense and super worried that you're gonna do the same to them, and you probably will, right? So does that resonate with you, that idea that, yeah, I'm, yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (15:15.104)
yeah, it doesn't it. I just love Brene Brown when she talks about courage and vulnerability and how it takes courage to be vulnerable. And the whole being too hard on yourself, that this culture that we can't make mistakes doesn't serve us at all. Because if you're not willing to take a chance, how are you going to innovate? And if you're always afraid of making mistakes,

Corey The Coach (15:23.027)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (15:34.931)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (15:41.192)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (15:44.482)
You're going to play it safe as an employee or even as a leader if you are afraid of making mistakes. And then when is change going to come along if that's the mindset? I read this, I can't remember the article at all, but this summer I read this great article that there was a company that instead of celebrating the wins or the successes when they had team meetings, they celebrated the mistakes. Because it proved that you tried something new. And so it was like, know,

Corey The Coach (16:08.093)
Hmm

Jacqueline LaCasse (16:13.732)
What a fail, know, great for you, you tried it, didn't work at all, but you tried it and you went out for it. I mean, obviously you have to take into account the, in what kind of a context you have that leeway to take certain kind of risks. But still, if you can forgive yourself and if you can admit it, employees will always forgive a mistake because

Corey The Coach (16:15.559)
Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... Yeah...

Corey The Coach (16:29.245)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (16:41.114)
That's about not knowing the right thing or doing the wrong thing, but maybe for the right reason. But what they won't forgive is if you don't admit it, if you try to hide it or deny it or gloss over it, because then that's about, my gosh, I wasn't even going there yet. But because then that's about your values as a person and it's about the relationship with them.

Corey The Coach (16:52.963)
Mm -hmm.

Corey The Coach (16:57.349)
Or blame somebody else.

Jacqueline LaCasse (17:10.096)
And the most important thing is the trust in the relationship. So if you're able to admit a mistake in a team meeting, then your employees and colleagues will feel a little more empowered and allowed to do it as well. it's a big change in culture. And depending on where you work, it is not necessarily easy, but it is very possible. You start with yourself, yeah.

Corey The Coach (17:39.143)
And I think that leads into the practice of prototyping.

right where you treat things as an experiment and for the new leader negotiating with an upper manager and saying I want to try this I want to approach it like a prototype see you know learn from it I can't guarantee it's gonna work but this is why I think it's gonna work and if it doesn't I'll learn from from it and adapt that's one of the ways that an upper manager will be more willing to accept you taking a chance as you put it yeah okay

Jacqueline LaCasse (17:43.334)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (18:08.752)
Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Corey The Coach (18:11.663)
Okay, well thank you for that. Let me ask you that, I think you've touched on this a little bit, but I'm gonna ask you, because before I said, what's your number one piece of advice? Now I'm asking for your top three pieces of advice, but specifically for that new leader who has just taken on the new role and she works, she worked with the people

she is now managing. That can be a very unique experience. I've experienced it. Tell me what your advice is for somebody facing that situation.

Jacqueline LaCasse (18:44.06)
Okay.

Jacqueline LaCasse (18:57.308)
My first piece of advice in any situation for a new leader is what I've already talked about is be yourself and trust yourself. So you have to know yourself from that, but specifically if it's someone that's becoming a manager of people she worked with before, that too, stay yourself.

All of a sudden, if you suddenly change your language or how you treat people in that, or think, now I have to be a certain way, it's a little false. And people will feel you're not being genuine in your relationships. Second of all, I would say connect. So connect with people, because now it is different.

Now you are the one that's making the final decisions. The buck stops here for certain things. So you do have to reconnect with everyone in your new roles and clarify them. You know, what's changing in our roles and maybe there were things you never saw before, especially among management. If now you're a manager for the first time, you always saw them as the bosses and they worked a certain way and a lot went on behind this.

Corey The Coach (20:10.537)
Right.

Jacqueline LaCasse (20:17.06)
behind this dark curtain and now you're there with them. So ask questions and connect with the people and slow down because first, and I know that things run very fast, especially that I coach in the world, especially of education and health where we have, where we lack.

employees and where everyone is overworked and but I mean that that's not the way to solve the problem is just putting more and more work on your own shoulders. actually have to slow down to be able to work better and go further and even go faster. So give yourself time to reflect. Your position is different now and you're more in a role of strategies, decision making and that.

Corey The Coach (20:51.165)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (21:10.428)
So slow down for that and slow down also to communicate clearly and to communicate the right things. don't, and especially if you're staying in the same organization, you think you know everything already, so then you become boss and it's like for the past five years you've been saying, I'm going to change this and that and I know how to fix this. And then when you become a manager, you might see, that's why they never did this and that's why you can't change that.

Corey The Coach (21:38.378)
Right.

Jacqueline LaCasse (21:40.014)
So take the time to learn everything so that you can make the right decisions and don't assume anything because you were there before. Don't assume that people will just accept you in the new position or that things will stay the same or that you understood everything. Ask questions, figure it out, yeah.

Corey The Coach (22:01.679)
Okay, makes perfect sense. Thank you for that. So there's another little nuance that I wanted to sort of jump into here. And that is for a new leader, a new manager, there's often a balancing act between sort of understanding the needs and challenges of the people that they just worked with.

or maybe it's an external promotion and they're just sort of, but they understand that life, they understand that role and promoting the overall needs of the business and its executives. You sort of alluded to that just now, right? So that's complex.

Jacqueline LaCasse (22:26.566)
Okay.

Jacqueline LaCasse (22:32.54)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (22:41.233)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (22:45.005)
How does a new leader navigate this complexity? Because on the one hand, they understand and respect the needs and wants of the people that are, you know, they are now managing. And the other hand, they're seeing this wider perspective than they had before. And it can be a very difficult middle position between them. Now, this is gonna vary depending on the people, depending on the type of,

know, executive leadership that there is. But if you have any insights on that, I think that would be very helpful for a lot of people.

Jacqueline LaCasse (23:23.228)
I think that's a really good way to look at leadership. Like when you said this balancing act and it's more than just balancing, there's this continuous tension between things that really seem contradictory. Like they'll say, you when you become a leader, you have to be confident and you have to be humble. Well, it's like, which one do you want? You have to be both. And what you were talking about there, you know, the needs of the employees, but the greater needs of the organization or of the clients they're serving.

Corey The Coach (23:43.145)
Hahaha

Jacqueline LaCasse (23:52.636)
There you're with the whole, are you people oriented or are your results oriented? vulnerability and courage as well. So I think is get used to the gray because it isn't black and white. And it isn't a perfect balancing that I need 10 points on the black side and 10 points on the white side of this scale.

Corey The Coach (24:18.459)
Mmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (24:20.248)
is there's this spectrum in between and everything's in the gray. So you learn to be comfortable. Well, learn to be a little more comfortable in the not knowing and this ambiguity because that's what leadership is. It's complex. It's not easy. And there isn't one right solution. There isn't a cookie cutter recipe for how to solve this. It's asking the right questions. It's working.

Corey The Coach (24:35.901)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (24:49.468)
as a team, it's stepping back to really, because sometimes we want to be in there too quickly with the facts, with the fast fix, so then you're in the band -aid. Then you're like, this is the complaint or this is the problem, this is how you fix it. If you're not, what's the real source of the problem? You know, the client wants this or that service wants this or our partner with who we have a contract.

Corey The Coach (24:59.539)
Mm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (25:18.778)
Is that really the problem? If you go further into the source, then you're really being in your leadership role. And when you don't know where to start, because sometimes there'll be three or four different ways to go, and there are odds, there are pour et contre, there are fours and against, but there's a term for that in English. Anyways, there are plus and minuses to these decisions.

Corey The Coach (25:39.923)
Mm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (25:48.048)
You're kind of torn between them. And if you get too much into deciding out of fear, instead of making the decision for the right reason, you might not make the right decision. So then I like to step back with people and come back to start with your values. You and your organization's values. when you don't, you know, when you're torn between all these, take a step back and what are our values? What's our mission? What's our, what are our goals?

Corey The Coach (25:59.515)
Mmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (26:17.584)
What is the real problem? And then build from that. And that's how you take into account all these conflicting things on both ends of the spectrum.

Corey The Coach (26:29.671)
I think that's very insightful. And also if you go, if you take the time, if you slow down, like you said, and you go through that values analysis, not analysis, it's the wrong word, but if you, if you connect to those values, then you have something to explain to upper management if they question you about it, right? The other thing is, is of course the gray and that tension, right? And, and you mentioned people, people,

people -oriented. So those that are people -oriented often find themselves really good at the people stuff, but then they're also needing to demand accountability to the measurements, right, to the stats, and vice versa. The people that are really good at the stats and driving those milestones.

Jacqueline LaCasse (26:59.484)
People oriented, yeah.

Corey The Coach (27:23.367)
they often do it at the expense of the social, right? So it just, and not that I'm asking for any answer to this question because I think you painted it right, is there's this tension there, right? And it's a question of the values, it's a question of living in the gray a little bit, it's a question of being a little bit of a conduit between what the staff has experienced and the expectations of other management and being brave enough to speak up about that, right?

So I like the way that you sort of put that. Okay, so this brings me to something that is pretty near and dear to my heart and that is...

I guess I'm curious just to hear your take, your perspective on the so -called charismatic leader, represented by people like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. Now these are two of the most financially successful people in the history of our species. Yet from my perspective,

they left a trail of unhappy, demoralized people in their wake. So I don't know if you agree with that, but you will tell me, how do you make sense of this kind of contradiction if indeed you see a contradiction there?

Jacqueline LaCasse (28:40.784)
Well, I won't get into an analysis or a debate with you on their business approaches and all that. I'll stick with the individual that I'm in front of that's a new leader and that is saying the only way to be a good leader is to be a charismatic leader like those guys, and I don't have it. As far as I'm concerned, leadership is not about charisma at all. It's true that yes, you can influence a lot of people,

Corey The Coach (28:46.419)
Yep.

Corey The Coach (28:58.217)
Mmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (29:09.712)
with this charisma and you can be very strong with your communication skills and people can be following you for a while. But if it's not the right vision behind there, if you don't have the right relationships with people and are building the team, it's not going to hold up to the test in the long run. As far as I'm concerned, leadership is more about humility. Humility and leading from behind and bringing out the leadership in others. Whereas charismatic leaders don't do that. So that's why

Leadership isn't about having great leaders. Leadership is about building strong institutions. And to build strong institutions, you want to build good leaders around you. And the examples you are giving, I don't know if they're necessarily people that are building up leaders around them as well.

Corey The Coach (30:01.957)
Yeah, I think that's, I think we're aligned in the way that we look at that. And I would also say that one of the historical trends you see with charismatic leaders is when they leave, often there's a bit of a vacuum because they haven't spent that time to develop those leaders around them. Okay, we're just agreeing too much, Jacqueline. No, we're...

Jacqueline LaCasse (30:23.642)
sorry. Okay, well let's see, what do you want to talk about that we can maybe not agree on? Okay, we're okay.

Corey The Coach (30:28.201)
We're not Fox Sports. It's fine if we agree. Okay. Okay, so let me move on to something else then. I've got all of these questions that are...

bubbling inside of me. I really appreciate you taking the time to lend your perspective and your expertise to this. One of the trends that I've seen in management, especially in academic environments, by the way, which you have a lot of experience with, is that, you know, there are people who may get a series of projects and milestones assigned to them by a committee, like a manager or leader of some kind. And they spend almost all of their time working on these projects, attending endless

meetings without ever really choosing to lead their teams or feel like they have an opportunity to do that, right? So they'll check in on them, they'll interview a new hire, they'll fire somebody. But in terms of actually leading,

Jacqueline LaCasse (31:24.294)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (31:32.297)
It's not happening in a lot of these environments. you know, it's hard to say, are they just not prioritizing it? I guess my sense is from working in that environment for a while, that it was overload. It was like there was too much there. There was a funnel constantly coming down from various committees. And they literally did not have time to lead.

So I'm just curious, what's the impact in your opinion on a team when the managers aren't really there leading?

Jacqueline LaCasse (32:11.63)
It can be huge, but sometimes it can be hidden and take months, even years that you really notice the impact and then it's kind of late and hard to fix it. But it is, I find it's often, it's just work overload. And unfortunately, they just don't have enough time. And often a new manager, especially in the health and education fields, is on top of doing their job, they're doing the job of three or four of their professionals or colleagues that are absent.

because they're on sick leave or because the position hasn't been fulfilled yet. And then they really just don't have the time. And unfortunately, instead of running around and being in operations and covering certain things, their time would probably be better invested in leading their team, in delegating certain things, and in helping their team be able to take over things.

Let's say you're not leading them. You're not present, you're not helping find direction, you're not building a vision. You could even ask the question, well, can you even say, is there a team? There's maybe a group of coworkers, maybe they get along very well, maybe they work very well together, maybe they have great social interactions, but are they a true team working towards a common goal aligned with the organization's vision and mission and purpose?

Corey The Coach (33:31.709)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (33:39.004)
because that's the leader's role to keep it lined up. Now, if in your team you're lucky that some of your professionals or other managers in your team have a lot of leadership qualities and informal leadership, they might be compensating for your lack of leadership. And then people might not notice that you're not leading your team because after all there's someone else there that's playing that role. Or if there's no one playing the role, if they're all very autonomous,

Responsible professionals that are doing their jobs. As I said, it might take quite a while before you realize that this has been going on. But you could have a bunch of people that they're doing their individual jobs very well, but there's no alignment with the institutional priorities or the strategic planning. They're giving, and in the education field, you could have a team of academic advisors and pedagogical advisors and that that are doing great jobs.

But if they're not aligned with what was the priority this year, you might find yourself at the end of the year that we didn't develop such an approach and that was something that was in our school's institutional priorities and we didn't reach it. We did great work with many projects, but there wasn't that synergy, that building towards the common goal.

Corey The Coach (35:02.216)
Yeah, and then one or two of those very special autonomous people leave the team, right? Or a new opportunity, right?

Jacqueline LaCasse (35:07.534)
If they get frustrated, they leave and if you're not lucky, new opportunity and if you're not, and I was talking about if you're lucky to have a team that works like that, but if there are conflicts within your team, if there are people who aren't pulling their weight and there is no leader there, well then it's going to disintegrate much more quickly and then we're going to see the impact of the manager not leading.

very quickly because conflicts, misunderstandings can quickly escalate into conflicts. Sometimes just about what's our priority, what project should we be working on or each person goes off and does their own thing, not caring at all that they're undoing the work of the other. So you're not bringing your results to the table after that. So if there are any of those kinds of problems in the team, the impact will be huge. And then you're talking about

people becoming unmotivated, not caring anymore, saying, well, if no one's going to notice this and they're not getting any acknowledgement or recognition, they don't feel that they're listened to, then yeah, are they going to leave or are they going to just check out, just do the minimum of their job but stay there? Many problems can percolate from that.

Corey The Coach (36:25.02)
Mm. Mm.

Corey The Coach (36:29.937)
well, yeah, and then there's also this bottleneck, right? Where you're, you have these autonomous creative people and

they have solutions, they have ideas, they have projects or initiatives, and they never get time to really get it launched, because the leader is too busy to spend time on it even think about it, which is not necessarily their fault, right? They're overwhelmed. It's more the structure of the entire system that falls apart there. But that's where

ingenuity gets lost, right, is when you're wasting that. Okay, well, let's become a little playful here. I'll share a sitch. Let's get more playful.

Jacqueline LaCasse (37:12.252)
we haven't been so far?

more, okay.

Corey The Coach (37:19.067)
I'll share a situation and you give me just the first piece of advice that comes to you. This is not meant to be comprehensive. We're just being playful here. We're tapping into our intuition, our instincts. Does that work for you? Can we do that? Okay. The situation is a new female leader in a male dominated environment.

Jacqueline LaCasse (37:33.276)
Okay, yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (37:44.378)
change. Do not change for them, for the men. That's what pops to my head because I love mixity in an environment and not just mixity men women but also ages, cultural differences, backgrounds, everything enriches our experience but as academic dean of a Sijup I just loved it when men went into the nursing programs.

And we need more men elementary school teachers. And we need more women engineers. And we need more women in computer sciences. So anything that can encourage someone to go into a male dominated or female dominated field, I'm on board. Yeah. And just be yourself there because they need you as you are.

Corey The Coach (38:11.496)
Right.

Corey The Coach (38:34.413)
I love that. I love that. I love that. Be yourself because they need you because otherwise they wouldn't have hired you. I think that's beautiful. Now, I recognize I'm going to get binary here and I'm going to get a little off track here, but I think that's okay. So sometimes when I look back big picture, and maybe I'm talking more here about politics, maybe I'm talking more here about civilization as a whole, I'm going way out. In a way.

Jacqueline LaCasse (38:41.105)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (39:04.137)
We've got 10 ,000 years of failure in male leadership. Now I'm not picking on males, OK? Like, there's lots of wonderful male leaders that there are. But just, mean, we're in a, some might argue we're in a pretty terrible place environmentally and otherwise. And one of the things I see, and I might get in trouble for saying this, but I'm kind of fearless and I'll just ask for forgiveness in advance.

Sometimes what I see is female leaders modeling male leadership styles. Again, very binary, very constricted, very old man terminology here. But why do we not see more of those women leaders bringing a different kind of leadership style within these corporations? And is that even a real thing to you? This is just my perception. Do you see that? And if so, why is it happening?

Jacqueline LaCasse (40:00.774)
Well, I see it happen sometimes, but I don't know if it's necessary that the woman changes her approach when she gets the position because she thinks that's what she has to do. I'm actually questioning the selection committee. Who's on the selection committee and what is the profile that they're looking for? And if it's a bunch of people with such a vision of this is what leadership should be in our organization and we only want someone with that profile,

Well then they're going to hire someone, whether they're a man or a woman, they're going to hire someone with that profile. And we should actually, as leaders, when we're hiring other leaders, we should search for this complementarity. We should say, I'm such a leader, what would really be good for my organization is that I get someone else who's going to challenge me, who's going to have a different approach. You know, the director general shouldn't be hiring a bunch of yes men below him.

because he's not serving his or her organization.

Corey The Coach (41:03.783)
Right, right. Okay. I think that makes a lot of sense getting back to that system impact. Cause we do tend to hire those that in some ways remind us or resemble us in some ways. Okay. Number two, a new leader from another company coming in to take over the team. What would be a piece of advice that you might offer that person?

Jacqueline LaCasse (41:15.984)
resemble us. Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (41:35.408)
be humble and take time to get to know the culture. Even if you know the industry and you think you know the culture because you had lots of partnerships with this other firm or whatever, until you're there, boots on the ground, you don't know it. So take time, ask questions, and really figure out what makes these people tick and why they're this way.

And then if there are things that need to be changed in the culture, well then you do it very slowly with the people, understanding. And when I say culture, it's the whole history of why things are done this way at such a company.

Corey The Coach (42:20.505)
Mm, I love it. Okay, a young new leader who takes over a team of older, more experienced people, something I myself have experienced.

Jacqueline LaCasse (42:33.422)
Okay, well there I go to my complementarity thing. You were hired for specific things in your profile that are needed, so don't be intimidated by the fact that the other people have more experience than you in that. And I would come back also to what I was saying about a leader's job is to surround himself with great leaders and to build up leadership. So that might be kind of a way to start the conversation.

with these other people that, you know, I really want to, I want to learn from your experience, you know, and I think I'm bringing something to the table with this qualification or with this in my profile, but you're bringing this experience, this knowledge, and I want to benefit from it. Can we please share? I think that might be a very good way to approach your new team members.

Corey The Coach (43:34.449)
And again, you went back to that idea which I love about they hired you for a reason, right? So you're bringing value and step into that value. Okay, great. A new leader who takes over.

Jacqueline LaCasse (43:44.698)
Yeah, yeah, be yourself. Don't come in too cocky though. sorry.

Whoops, sorry, I interrupted you. Well, I was just saying, you do have to be careful not to be too cocky when you come into a new position. Like if you come in and you sit down at the table and say, I know how to do things better and I'm going to tell you how to do it, might not be the way to start on the best foot. So yes, they brought you for a reason and trust your qualifications, but that will not serve you yet.

Corey The Coach (43:54.075)
No, that's okay. Keep going.

No worries, keep going.

Corey The Coach (44:14.178)
No, I don't think that would serve you.

Corey The Coach (44:22.409)
Okay, thanks for adding that. And it's always a good idea to interrupt me, by the way. Yeah, yeah, cause I'm just gonna go on. A new leader who takes over at a time of layoffs, downsizing, and general anxiety. Extremely tough position to walk into. What's a piece of advice?

Jacqueline LaCasse (44:27.992)
okay.

Jacqueline LaCasse (44:43.836)
Yeah, okay, well that's what happened to me when I became academic dean, actually. I became academic dean and we had a huge budget cut that year by the Ministry of Education and we had to cut 17, the first thing I did the second day in position was cut 17 jobs. I was like, not the best way to start. So you have to, first of all,

Corey The Coach (44:48.817)
Mmm, mmm, mmm.

Corey The Coach (45:05.347)
Jacqueline LaCasse (45:12.27)
Yeah, you have to understand the anxiety. So there's a question of empathy. There's a question of being open, of listening to people, hearing their preoccupations, hearing their worries. But you have to also be very clear in what you're announcing. Like if you have to be cutting projects or cutting positions and that because of this thing.

It doesn't help anyone to rip the bandaid off one little bit at a time. Or to avoid pushing back or avoiding a difficult conversation isn't helping people. There's actually more fear and frustration in the unknown and then there'll be rumors and they'll be making up all sorts of stories about what's going to happen.

Corey The Coach (45:44.937)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (46:07.568)
then you actually saying, listen, unfortunately next year we're going to have to cut two projects and we're going to have to cut so many positions. You just have to have those difficult and courageous discussions, as I said, with a lot of empathy, with a lot of listening to people, and we'll find solutions together afterwards. But unfortunately, that's the context you're coming in. So there are things that will have to be put into place.

Corey The Coach (46:12.19)
Hmm.

Corey The Coach (46:37.767)
So a lot of presence, a lot of living in the gray. Okay, okay, makes a lot of sense. Right.

Jacqueline LaCasse (46:40.123)
Yeah

a lot of just being there for the employees and that.

Corey The Coach (46:48.755)
Okay, okay. Last one of these. A new leader who has friends among those they are now managing.

Jacqueline LaCasse (46:58.072)
-huh. Lots of things can happen there. But first of all, if you say, things won't change, things are going to change. You kind of don't have a choice. So maybe things will change just because of your new role. You're going to have to make some decisions that won't be popular with your old friends.

Corey The Coach (47:09.927)
Yeah. Yeah.

Corey The Coach (47:24.189)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (47:24.476)
Or maybe your friends are suddenly going to have lots of expectations towards their new boss and start asking things of you and you will have to refuse them. And you might have, so I would say clear conversations with your friends about your new role, especially that loyalty piece. Because there might be things that you didn't agree with as an employee and you become a manager and you still don't agree with it.

Corey The Coach (47:30.855)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (47:44.818)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (47:54.588)
And you'll be participating in meetings with colleagues and other managers and you'll bring forth your arguments why they shouldn't go ahead with such a project or a decision but for a reason A, B, they go ahead anyways. You've said your piece. After that, you are loyal to that decision. You are part of the management team. You are part of the decision with everyone and you can't go tell your friends afterwards.

Corey The Coach (48:13.617)
Right, right.

Jacqueline LaCasse (48:23.514)
I was against it, you know, but what do know, we have to do it anyways. No, you.

Corey The Coach (48:27.109)
Or even start complaining about it.

Jacqueline LaCasse (48:30.212)
unraveling it from, yeah, we're complaining about it or unraveling it from behind. that's a con, first of all, that's a big thing you have to learn as a new leader and manager that loyalty towards the organization and what it requires of you. And you have to look at your, alignment of your values with the organization's values and how you are going to navigate these situations. And then you have to have a conversation with your friends.

Corey The Coach (48:38.515)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (48:59.16)
about just in general, know, before these situations happen, what does loyalty mean to a manager and there are certain conversations you're not going to be able to have with them anymore.

Corey The Coach (49:10.471)
Yeah, I love that.

that you're phrasing it like that, like what does loyalty mean in this context, you know, between us, between, you know, me and my new role, things like that. think that's very insightful. And I'd also say there's a social aspect of this too, something that I faced the first time I was a manager where I did have friends, you know, and I did not think it was appropriate for the three of us to go out at lunch together and it'd be just us three, right? And that was a very,

at the time awkward conversation right and i think it was the right decision but i probably could have handled it with more skill now of course than i did then

but it can create all kinds of worry and anxiety within an office because there's favoritism going on there. they're friends. He'll get the promotion or she'll get the promotion, you know? So a lot of boundary setting, I think is important and upfront, genuine, like the way that you described it. Hey, this is my role now. You know, this is what I can do. This is what I can't do. Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (50:17.574)
Yeah, can't do and I mean if you have, I had a colleague that was also another manager but not in the same position that was very trusted and a very wise person so I did want her advice on certain situations but we would name to each other. Okay, there things I can't tell you that are confidential but I'd like your advice or sometimes we say, can I just react on a first level here? I need to vent.

Afterwards, I'm taking off my hat, so we would identify it. I'm taking off my hat, I just need to vent for five minutes, and then we're going to put our hats back on. in some positions, you can't even allow yourself that. And I used to be a teacher before becoming an academic dean. And when I knew that there were litigious things going on in a department, or when the union was voting on positions, well, I just didn't go see my

old colleague teacher friends, like even just to have lunch or to chat with them because I didn't want them to feel ill at ease that they were seeing me the day before they were going to go vote on something and they knew, you know, that it was important to a decision that I was making. So I also, it was kind of to protect them and to protect our relationship. I just didn't go into certain zones. I said, you know, for us to be able to

Corey The Coach (51:13.536)
Mmm. Mmm.

Corey The Coach (51:30.703)
Mm. Mm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (51:37.018)
continue playing golf together or whatever, then we're not going to be seen such a way and we're not going to talk about such a thing.

Corey The Coach (51:46.217)
Yeah, and I would one thing I would add, which I think you'd agree with is when you went to that person invented, if they're a direct report, for instance, or if they're not somebody that you've been close friends with for 20 years, probably not a good idea. So yeah, yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (52:06.254)
No, if they're a direct report or you don't have, like here I'm talking about a very long trusted relationship. If not, no, to your coach, talk to someone else, but no, you just can't. And there are even some things, yeah, there are some things I told my boss when I was talking about difficulties in my job that afterwards with hindsight I realized I,

Corey The Coach (52:14.963)
Yeah, yeah.

Corey The Coach (52:22.46)
You can't do it.

Jacqueline LaCasse (52:36.016)
didn't need to go there. would have been better to talk to a coach or a neutral external source than to that person about that specific problem because then it created a bias in him afterwards when other things were going on. Yeah.

Corey The Coach (52:38.077)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (52:53.393)
Yeah, and also, you never know how somebody is going to interpret vulnerability or anything like that. The other thing is, I think every leader wants the people that they lead to be able to solve problems and not add to them. So there's a time and place where you got to communicate.

But I would say, you know, at least have an idea of what you want to do about it, right? Rather than just dumping it on, on a, on a leader and saying, how this is such a massive problem. You know, it's about going to them and saying, this is what I think about it. You know, this is what I propose. Can I get some feedback? Do you have any advice? Right. What do you, what do you say to that?

Jacqueline LaCasse (53:41.488)
Yeah, well, leaders can even encourage that in their employees by taking a leader coach approach or mindset to it that when people come to you, you ask them, what would you like to do with it? That you're in listening mode, but then you ask the powerful questions and you work on developing your employees and your colleagues' autonomy and responsibility and their capacities to deal with this. You know, do you have a

Corey The Coach (53:49.956)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (53:55.454)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (54:10.812)
And with some people, know, if they're always coming to you with a problem, can name next time when you come into my office with a problem, I'm going to ask you what solutions you have to propose or what areas you'd like us to study. So you announce it ahead of time. Next time, there's going to be a question coming after this and we're going to delve into it, yeah.

Corey The Coach (54:24.115)
Yep.

Corey The Coach (54:29.491)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's insightful. When I was a more experienced manager at a team meeting where I said that because one of the challenges I was facing was I had all this work to do and people were coming constantly into my office, right? And so I said to them, okay, this is what I'm experiencing.

Jacqueline LaCasse (54:48.293)
You

Corey The Coach (54:54.673)
I'm falling further behind, but I also want to be there for you. So how about this? When you come to me with a problem with a question, can you have done a little bit of work on it so that you have some angle, some opinion on it to present to me? And everybody sort of actually really responded really well to that. They did not think of that as a negative. They did not think of that as me, abrogating my responsibilities. They were like, right. And then, and then empowered them, right? So when they came, they

Jacqueline LaCasse (55:13.072)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (55:23.537)
Yep.

Corey The Coach (55:24.627)
felt better about coming because they weren't supplicants, right? They were, they were people that were there, they were equals, they were, you know, professionals that were coming with, you know, real ideas, real challenges, and they'd thought about it. Right? So I, and they knew I'd listen. Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (55:41.052)
and they knew you'd listen to them too. So that was a condition necessary so that you could keep your open door policy. Because I find it's important to be, know, that people know that they can come see you when something's going on.

Corey The Coach (55:50.055)
That's right.

Corey The Coach (55:56.125)
That's right, that's right. We're nearing the end here. I got a couple more questions for you if you're willing. Are you willing?

Jacqueline LaCasse (56:04.636)
I was going to say I'm always willing, but maybe I shouldn't say that to you, Corey. I'm willing. In the context now for the next questions, I'm willing.

Corey The Coach (56:08.041)
Okay. That's right. That's right. I'll call you at 12 o 'clock tonight and pose the question to you. We talked earlier about the difference between managing and leading.

Jacqueline LaCasse (56:14.748)
Well said.

Jacqueline LaCasse (56:24.668)
See

Corey The Coach (56:26.011)
And I wonder if you have any insight about it. And actually the example that you just gave is probably one of the best examples of how do we operationalize that? How do we operationalize leadership? How does a manager, a new manager move from managing

to leading. So the example that you just gave is one of those answers. How can you empower them? How can you ask them to take a bigger role in bigger responsibility, bigger accountability with the inputs they give you, right? Whether it's questions, whether it's ideas, whatever, that's one way. Is there anything else that you would suggest around that?

Jacqueline LaCasse (57:10.064)
Yeah. So the question is really, you know, how can someone shift their mindset to really go from a managing mindset to a leading mindset? So what would, and I think the answer is very individual for each person, you know, what would help me shift, but keeping in mind, okay, I'm going, leadership is about relationships with people. So it's about communicating. It's about building trust. So I would say,

What's going to help me be more courageous and what's going to help me build these trusting relationships? Trusting myself and trusting them and having my employees trust me. So what builds courage and trust? And then the answer might be very individual for each new leader. And what would help me deal with the not knowing, with that whole gray piece we talked about? So my tolerance towards ambiguity.

Corey The Coach (57:56.698)
Mmm. Mmm.

Corey The Coach (58:04.881)
Mmm. Mmm.

Corey The Coach (58:09.906)
Hmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (58:09.954)
and that there's not one right solution and balancing all these conflicting forces or tensions and all these contradictions. So what will help me become better at that? is it taking better care of myself? Are we talking about mindfulness, how to deal with stress management, how to deal with decision making?

Corey The Coach (58:30.675)
you

Jacqueline LaCasse (58:38.214)
Are we talking about what would build my confidence? Well, to build up certain of my competencies, well then I'll feel much more confident and comfortable. And how to practice, how to give yourself this room to practice things and give yourself the right to make a mistake. So start with smaller challenges when you're with a big group.

And if it's a really big challenge, we'll start with a smaller group. Dose it and go step by step. Leadership is all about learning. So look at how you learn best and develop your, anything you did during your professional development to increase certain competencies or how confident you feel in them. And look at that towards leadership. What would be useful to me at this time?

Corey The Coach (59:08.307)
Hmm.

Corey The Coach (59:33.541)
and help others learn. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna jump in here too, because I think presence is a huge thing when you're with your team individually or not. And the other thing I think is, you know, the quality of your own sort of internal comfort.

Jacqueline LaCasse (59:35.557)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (59:48.891)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (01:00:01.733)
you know if if you're filled with anxiety

that's going to come across that is not going to build trust with your employees. So what can you do about that? You know, you already talked about mindfulness, whatever it is. But that presence is so much more powerful than anything you say or anything that you do, in my opinion, right? So even, you know, skills, competencies, all those things, I mean, it's, always important. But ultimately, that presence that you're bringing that

inner being that you're projecting out without needing to be perfect, right? But just authentically, calmly being yourself, however you get to that, which is a whole other conversation that we could have. I think that counts the most. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:00:58.222)
yeah, we're perfectly aligned there as well. And I love Maya Angelou's quote about, people won't remember what you said, they won't remember what you did, but what they'll remember is how you made them feel. And that's all about your presence when you're in conversation, when you're working with your employees. How can you...

Corey The Coach (01:01:02.042)
Okay.

Corey The Coach (01:01:11.657)
how you

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:01:21.99)
How can you build a team? How can you be in creating a vision? How can you be in mobilizing people? If you yourself don't believe in that vision and if you're not confident in who you are in this position, people pick up on it. It's like dogs that smell fear.

Corey The Coach (01:01:39.997)
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's true. That's true. Doing that inner work is really important. Okay. And, you know, I think we'll have to bring you back to talk about the five, you know, we'll spend, I don't know, five straight days talking about how you do those things. But anyways, okay. Last question. I have a magic lamp.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:01:47.302)
Yeah.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:02:02.682)
Yeah, I think.

Corey The Coach (01:02:09.469)
There's a genie in it. You've just rubbed the lamp. The genie has come out and it's offering you one gift or understanding that you would give to each new leader. One insight, one understanding, one piece of advice that you might offer to them. Maybe it's what you just said. Maybe it's something else. If it's what you just said, feel free to say that. want authentically for you to tell me what you think.

is probably at the core of all of this.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:02:42.062)
I it's what we just said, not just I think, I shouldn't have even said that, that's what I truly believe in my inner self, that it's about presence and mindfulness and taking care of yourself. So if they could give them a gift, it would be the gift of presence and mindfulness, because that will help you with dealing with stress, that will help you with, if imposter syndrome is your challenge, it'll help you build your resiliency, it'll help you with self -compassion, so that

Corey The Coach (01:02:52.297)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:03:11.354)
That self -care, would also, like go and walk in the woods, know, take care of your health, be rested and take care of yourself. So that's what I would want the genie to give each new leader and manager as their own inner gift. But I would also like the genie to tell all of their bosses and organizations that they have to give them another gift.

Corey The Coach (01:03:36.038)
Hmm

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:03:38.556)
And is that every single new manager and leader should have a coach or a mentor, should have the support mechanisms and solid support mechanisms that they need. It shouldn't be, you're great at your job, you're hired, the position's been empty for three months, good luck.

Corey The Coach (01:03:44.62)
Yeah.

Corey The Coach (01:04:01.895)
Yeah. And I often wonder how many really good talented people, if we want to talk about, you know, diversity and inclusion, it's not just about different,

you know, different races, religions, backgrounds, and things like that. It's also about, you creating the culture and the training and the connections for people? Are you aware that that person might have a different way of thinking, right? A different way of processing that doesn't match with your experience. So you flush them down the toilet too soon, right? Building that sort of culture that you're referring to

means there are more diamonds in the rough that come up within your organization and I think that is so important. Okay, so listen, I can't thank you enough for giving of your time and your energy and your expertise. Thank you so much for being here. How do people interested in connecting with you?

you know, maybe for, for coaching, maybe somebody that wants to work with you as a client, what is the best way for our audience to reach you?

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:05:18.756)
it would be on LinkedIn. So you just have to know how to spell my name right, but I see it's right there on the screen, but for anyone who's just listening, so Jacqueline spelled the French way, J -A -C -Q -U -E -L -I -N -E, and Lacasse L -A -C -A -S -S -E. And don't be scared by the fact that everything's in French right now on my LinkedIn page. I haven't had time to put it in English. I hope you have the proof right now, right here, that I am perfectly bilingual, and I do this in English as well.

Corey The Coach (01:05:45.193)
You

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:05:48.75)
And I also facilitate co -development groups, like for a whole group of managers in an organization or give leadership trainings on top of individual coaching. And I just have to thank you, Corey. This was so much fun. So thank you for giving me the occasion to have this discussion with you.

Corey The Coach (01:06:02.299)
It was...

Corey The Coach (01:06:07.233)
It's all my pleasure but yes, and we'll have you back too. And by the way, I'll also put your contact info in terms of the LinkedIn profile in the episode notes. Okay. Okay.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:06:11.541)
good.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:06:18.693)
perfect, yeah and you can put my email there too and okay.

Corey The Coach (01:06:22.127)
Okay, well, it's been a total pleasure. Thanks for all that you've brought today. I'm going to ask you to stay on for a second, but I'm going to stop the recording. So everybody, thank you so much. If you liked what you heard, please rate. If you're on Spotify or iTunes, please give us a like, subscribe if you're on YouTube. That's how we grow. That's how we meet more people. And thanks for being with us.

Jacqueline LaCasse (01:06:49.852)
Thank you.

Corey The Coach (01:06:55.835)
I have to be very, very careful because the last time I did this, which was with somebody yesterday,