First Response with Bob Plaschke, Episode: 26 - Chief Art Acevedo (Ret.) - Leadership, Ethics and Relational Policing

You can’t understand modern American policing by looking only at headlines. The real story lives in the everyday moments: a traffic stop, a tense protest line, a hard conversation with a mayor, a decision to de-escalate instead of escalate. That’s why we sat down with Aurora CO, Chief Art Acevedo, (Ret.) one of the most decorated big-city police chiefs (Austin TX, Houston TX, Miami FL) of the last few decades, to talk about what actually builds trust and what quietly destroys it.

We start with Art’s American journey, arriving from Cuba on the Freedom Flights, and how his family’s push to assimilate and embrace diversity shaped the way he leads. From there, we get honest about the trust gap around law enforcement, why police are still judged as part of government, and what changed after George Floyd. Art explains why mass crowd tactics can backfire, why precision and restraint matter, and how leaders earn credibility by showing up and leading from the front.

The heart of the conversation is leadership and ethics. Art lays down a blunt rule for anyone chasing the top job: don’t become a police chief unless you can afford to lose the job, because integrity is the only thing you fully control. He also breaks down “relational policing” and his TREAT framework (transparency, respect, engagement to build emotional capital, accountability) as a practical blueprint for better outcomes, safer officers, and stronger community relationships. We close with why professional associations matter in a nation with 18,000 separate agencies but one Constitution.

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Transcript

The front line, and that is the policing front line, is loud, and because even the voices behind it, I think they're louder, if not more important. My name is Bob Plaschke and this is First Response. We're the number one podcast that takes you behind the police edge and uncovers real stories and experiences of police officers from all walks of life, and the topics that shape public safety and policing today. Hopefully, you're curious about the people that sit behind the hero, and they are indeed heroes, and the topics that drive police in the United States. So this is kind of your front row seat, and let's get started. I should tell you that the podcast is sponsored by PepperBall, where I have the honor to serve as the chief executive officer. PepperBall creates non-lethal alternatives to guns that the police use to keep themselves and their public safe. Today is a special day for me and for First Response. We're joined by one of the most decorated police chiefs in the last 20, 30 years, a gentleman that has served in three major metropolitan areas as police chief, served as the president of the Major Cities Chiefs Association, which is one of the largest and most influential associations in policing today, both in the U.S. and globally. He is a true American success story and someone that just I'm honored to be with and that is retired Chief Art Acevedo. Chief, so great to have you. The first question is going to be a softball between Austin, Houston, and Miami. What was your favorite city?

Oh, that's funny. And don't forget Aurora, that was my fourth and final stop as interim police chief there. What's funny is that I loved every city because it really wasn't about the actual city, it was really about the mission. It was about the cops and it was about the safety of the public and it was about building trust and creating long-lasting relationships. So I love them all. And if I could start all over again tomorrow, I would. It's been a 37-year career that I thoroughly enjoyed. So for the food, I would say it would be one, and then for family and another, but at the end of the day, I love them all because I love being with cops, I love being around cops, and I love serving the public and being challenged.

Oh, then I assume the food is Miami.

Well, yeah, because some of that cuisine as a Cuban by birth and an American by the grace of God and the generosity of the American people, that's where I could find the food that most closely tasted like the food that my mom and dad would cook for us as kids.

So I was going to ask you about that. Your father was a police officer in Cuba before the federal government took over. And then I guess he brought you and your family here when you were four years old. Is that right?

Yeah, about four and a half. We landed in Miami on what was called the Freedom Flights back on 12/26/1968. I was four and a half. We processed at old World War II barracks at the Miami International Airport that they had on the grounds. I actually took my kids there, my older kids back in the late 90s, early 2000s to see that place and all that's left now, sadly, is a big plaque, a historical plaque. And after five days, my dad said we're moving to Los Angeles because while I want you to appreciate the culture and your homeland that you came from, I want you all to assimilate and I want you to learn about other cultures, how to be an American, so on and so forth. And I think that was really brilliant on our father's and mother's foresight. They had the foresight to understand that what makes our country the greatest, I think, on earth is that diversity. But had they not moved us out of Miami, we would have never left the island because we would have been around people who think the same and it was groupthink. And thank God for my dad and mom, because I don't think I would have had the great career that I really enjoyed in the journey, my American journey, had we not moved to California and Los Angeles.

Now, did your dad continue as a police officer or did you pick up the baton?

No. I mean, look, when the communists took over in the late 50s, there was not enough food for all of us to go around. I'll never forget my father saying when he was in his deathbed back in 1995, and I was with him every day for two weeks in the hospital, sleeping in the room with him as the baby. I got to do that with both my mom and my dad. He said, don't forget your mom. Take care of your mom because there was never enough food to go around living under communism. And if you kids dropped a grain of rice, she would pick it up and eat it because there was not enough food. And so he was a he was a police officer before the communists, when once the communists took over, my father, my uncles, they were anti-revolutionaries. And I can just tell you that, the uncles in the Bay of Pigs, my parent, my dad was locked up before the Bay of Pigs because they knew what was coming. So it's, we were raised to be patriots, but he never became a police officer again. He had to go to work in construction when he got to this country and to raise his family and support his family. And the I think the greatest gift he gave us was the gift of love, the gift of understanding that all you can take with you is your memories. You can't take things with you. So, work to live, but don't live to work. But he also taught us to appreciate the gift of freedom that our country gave us, right? This wonderful nation and to give back. And so to be a patriot, and that's what I think we were raised to do.

Well, what I'm sure he was pleased when you decided to go into policing, was that an easy decision for you?

Well, yeah, I grew up wanting to be one of three things: a police officer. My nickname was the policeman as a kid because every time we played cops and robbers, that I'd fight you. There'd be a fight before I became the crook, right? So I always wanted to be the cop. And then I either wanted to do that, go to West Point, be a West Point grad, because you think about going there when I was 13 with my brother-in-law, who was 13 years older than me. May he rest in peace, Vietnam vet, Purple Heart winner, Bronze Star, all that stuff in Vietnam with Valor. He passed last year, but he took me to West Point when I was 13. I started thinking about all the great leaders in American history, the Grants, the MacArthur's, the Pattons, all these great leaders, Eisenhower, that walked those grounds. And I remember my the hair on my neck standing up. And so that was the other thing, either that policeman, or a prosecutor. So I couldn't make it to West Point because I never got my citizenship in time, didn't get it till right after my 21st birthday. It finally came through, and then so that wasn't in the cards, but then I went to law school, and after toward the end of the first year, I said, what? Policing's really in my heart. There was an old police chief that was going through law school from I think it was in Brea, and he said to me, Hey, listen, Art, law school is not going anywhere, it will always be here, but clearly your heart is somewhere else. And so I quit law school to become a police officer in the California Highway Patrol, and I'm so glad that I did because that's truly what was in my heart, the thought of giving back to the country that gave us that gift of freedom. And when I became a police officer, the highlight of my career, one of the highlights was taking my father as a sergeant in East Los Angeles with the California Highway Patrol on a ride-along. And he was just beaming with pride that his son, was a sergeant. And he won the hearts and minds of all the cops that knew me and got to meet him. And I'll never forget when he passed away in 1995. That wall of honor that the officers, a bunch of my partners showed up. We probably had close to 70, 80 officers there. It was huge. I couldn't believe how many showed up. And when they all stood out there, we brought the, brought out the old casket and they all saluted. I'm I'm spiritual, so I know he was watching that, and I'm and I know he was filled with pride that all those officers showed up to honor him.

Well, I mean there are so many things that, and this podcast, by the way, the goal is to try to take folks like myself who don't who have never served, never had that privilege or honor, and try to understand the fraternity that sits behind the brotherhood that sits behind the policing. And that's, that's just one small example, right? That they would all come out and honor your dad in that way.

Yeah, and it touched me, man. And it's like, but the good thing is that when you say that you haven't served, I, I might differ a little bit because with PepperBall, what you guys do when you provide us that force option that really helps, keep police officers safe and suspects safe and protesters safe and helps us bring really volatile situations under control without taking a life, that is service, right? And so I always tell people, service is not just about the people behind the badge, it's the people that's that provide all the support services internally that are part of the organization, whether the professional staff, people that clean the facilities, and everybody plays a role, including the private sector, right? That's why I, I'm an Axon ambassador. That the reason I picked them is because they continue to give back, keeping everyone safe, all the stakeholders, like that moonshot that quite honestly, Axon, PepperBall, all these tools that help us bring closure to a critical incident, a critical event without having to hurt someone physically, I think is service. So I will just throw you are serving, but in a different capacity, and I appreciate your service.

No, that's that's incredibly kind of you and generous of you to say I appreciate that. We do feel here at PepperBall in that context. We do feel like we're a very small part of a much larger and much more important mission to save lives and save careers, looking back, when you first joined the force, I have a number of police chiefs on here, and we talk up and they talk about the old days of you ask politely, you tell someone that you need, to do something, and then you make them, that's the old and you rarely got to the tell and make because most of the time they just it happened, people had a I think a healthy respect for the law enforcement and for police officers. That's that's changed. I think it's now only 46% of Americans trust the institution or have some some fundamental trust, which is a a shame. Have you seen that over your time and as a police chief, you've had to deal with that, where do you think we are on that pendulum? Do you think that we're hopefully maybe swinging back a bit from the kind of the George Floyd protest days?

Yeah, look, I first of all, it's we're part of government. And so while people think that the public doesn't trust the police, I can tell you when it comes to government, they trust the police a lot more than they trust Congress or they trust the legislature or they trust the mayor and council, right? But we are part of the government. And sadly, our government, when you have so many people that all they care about is their next election, right? And regardless of whether to the left or the right, they care more about their respective bases. Quite honestly, they're, the extreme bases of either side of the political spectrum are out of touch with the rest of us. Most of us are center, center left, center right, but we are not extreme. And unfortunately, we live at a time when most of these so-called leaders care more about self, care more about their next election, irrespective of what party they belong to than the mission, than good public policy. And so I would I would argue that when it comes to the government, which we are a part of in law enforcement, we are still the institution that is trusted most when it comes to government. So I always tell my cops, just keep in mind that you're living, you're serving, you're working at a time when the mistrust of government is a, fever-high pitch. So that means that we have to work that much harder to perform in a manner that is consistent with the expectations of the people that we serve. Because at the end of the day, the court of public opinion matters to everything we do as police officers. It matters to the pay that we're going to get, the benefits we're going to receive, the trust and the credibility we'll have with a grand jury when we're there because we were involved in a critical incident, right? Or we're there to testify on behalf of a victim of crime. So it matters to juries, grand juries, civil juries, criminal juries. So it matters to everything we do. So make sure that you conduct yourself in a manner where what you're doing is making us as best as you can a friend and not a foe for the police department, that one contact that they may have may be the one and only contact they'll ever have. So the question is I'm going to conduct myself in a way where we're going to make a a friend or a foe. And quite honestly, those voices are the ones that we're going to need when the defund policing movements come out, which is usually not the community. It's that community of 10, which I call the same ten activists that come to the city hall or come to the Congress or come to the state legislature. And the community of this and the community that, when you come, when you when you come to find out, one, they don't represent the views of that community that they pretend to be representing. And B, half, majority of them don't even live in the community that are speaking out, on their behalf. And so, at that's why, I will say don't worry about, don't worry about polls and worry more about hearts and minds and conduct yourself in a manner that's going to win over the hearts and the minds of the people. And I can tell you being in Houston in the summer of George Floyd, I promise, I challenge you to go find a big city that did better, that fared better than the city of Houston, where we didn't have any police cars burned down, we didn't deploy massive gassing of crowds, which quite honestly as a police chief for 15 and a half years across four different major cities in the country, I've never authorized gas mass gassing. Now, not to say that we wouldn't use something like PepperBall, which is a very precision tool that can be used to actually target an individual and not an entire crowd, because what these what these anarchists want is to get in a crowd of 3,000 people exercising the First Amendment rights, throw a few frozen water bottles, and they want us to just gas the whole crowd because then you lose everybody. And you're actually agitating everybody, and you're actually, you're you're you're not de-escalating, you're actually escalating the response. And so I'm glad that, we're we're we've been more strategic than that, and we understand that we have more support than people think we do.

, and and tip of the hat, it's not easy, it's not easy to be a police chief in a major metropolitan area, and particularly during the George Floyd protests. And if you could avoid to your point that mass gas, that tear gas, and it's, and now you see it a bit used way too, and that's my opinion, maybe a bit too prematurely, a bit too aggressively, or excuse me. And to your point, to it affects it, a bunch of people get affected. And to your point, that, you're just you're making it more difficult for the next generation of policing to happen in that local area. So, that you figure that out. And I know that you teach, and I should have mentioned that you're you're teaching at the UVA Center for Public Safety and Justice. And so you're talking to that next generation of police leaders, how do you I mean, what are the two or three lessons learned from from your work, the kind of the key success factors that allowed you to maintain that relationship with your communities?

Well, that's a great question. And I've always, as president of Major Cities Chiefs. I was there on the board when Darrel Stephens, who's, an old icon of law enforcement, Dr. Darrel Stephens, Chuck Ramsey, myself, I think Bratton might have been around as well. We started the Police Executive Leadership Institute, which is a, which is a great program that continues to this day. And what I used to tell folks is that number one, you should not take that chief's job unless you're willing to lose your job, right? And it unless you can afford to lose your job. If you can't afford to lose the job, don't take it. Because it's not a matter of if. Sooner or later, we're all interims. There's no such thing as a permanent police chief, right, or it's just a matter of whether you're going to last three, one year, six months, three months, three years, five years. And the average is really about three years and a good year during the George Floyd protests for the last several years. I mean, some seats would turn over two or three times in one year. And we know that the lack of continuity of leadership, lack of continuity of leadership is one of the worst things that can happen to an organization. And so I think that the lessons that I've always told people if you cannot afford to lose the job, don't take it in the first place. If you're not willing to lose it, because they own you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're owned. And to speak truth to power, right? Don't BS people. If you're not if you're just going to sit there and try to BS, just don't even bother because people can see right through it. People appreciate leaders that say what they think and do what they say, right? And that are just very honest and open, even if they disagree with you in a policy position, they appreciate the honesty, they appreciate the willingness to take a stand, and I said, and I used to tell them, look, and if you're in a leadership position and you never find yourself in any controversy whatsoever, that means you stand for nothing other than to keeping your job, right? Because think about it, think about the environment we're leading in, the environment we're operating in. And if you're not willing to do the work, it is I'll never forget. I don't know if Lee Baca, the old sheriff from LA County. He'd been a friend for many years, sad the way his career ended. And I actually warned him to his face, by the way, four years before that all happened. I told him it was going to happen if he didn't start doing some things that I thought he needed to do. Because I think that's part of leadership, is being able to have those tough conversations, those honest conversations, there's those critical needed conversations. And so he used to tell me, Art, if you're not willing to work seven days a week, 365 days a year, do not take the number one position because there is no substitute in many instances for the chief. You will be taking all the arrows, whether or not you're even at work when something goes wrong. And so if you don't have the time, don't take, don't take the position. A lot of people want the they want the stripes, they want the bars, they want the stars, they want the pay, they want the prestige, they want everything else, but they don't want the workload or the responsibility. So if you're not willing to do all these things, then then what? Know what your capacity is. And I respect people that don't want to promote beyond whatever. I love cops that I have so much respect for the real leaders, which are those career officers that every day for 20, 30, 35, some 40, 40 something years go out on the streets in that black and white and that shop, right? In that police car, because they really the ones actually go out and do the work and not try to undermine, which is a small percentage, thank God. But what? Everybody knows, can if they're honest with themselves, what they assess themselves, what their goals are, what their views are in the world, know your capacity. And if you can't give the work, then don't continue to promote. Because I think that you do a disservice to yourself and to the community and to the men and women that you're supposed to be leading.

No, I didn't, and we come across these folks every day, these are the guys that are and gals that are, they've been they're they're running the academy, they're doing the training as an example. Or they'll be a SWAT commander. And to your point, they are very, they know what they're good at, and not only do they revel in that work, right? I mean, they take and that's their that's their life's mission, is to and to your point, if you take a job for the ego, it's going to it's not going to work out. I do love this, by the way. I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. If you if you need, if you if you're beholden to a city council for a mayor, that is a that's a long that means you're going to be put in in in a lot of tough. Moral and ethical situations that you can't speak your truth. Let me ask you why did you I mean let me ask the question and a kind of follow-on question is that I do see a bit of a difference between police chiefs like yourself of major metropolitan areas and sheriffs. Sheriffs, they it is a political, political, it's a political position. You have to run for it. You have to get re-elected, but once you're there, you do have a bit of freedom. Compare and contrast a police chief versus a sheriff. And why did you ever think about running for sheriff?

Oh yeah, trust me. I but first of all, as a police chief, you're running for office every day, okay? Not just every four years, right? I mean, you're one instance, you're you're one bad incident away from losing your job. So I used to tease all my buddies, they're sheriffs. But you guys run once every four years, right? I run every day as a police chief, right? So I have, I mean, I'm actually thinking about running, in the in the 28 cycle in Austin, Texas, and that and in that region. But I've always done my job like I was a sheriff. As a matter of fact, chiefs would always tease me, my buddies like, man, man, you act like you're a sheriff. I go, well, let me explain something to you. Leaders come to work to do their jobs, not keep their jobs. And at the end of the day, I was I, I work for the mayor, I work for the city manager, but ultimately we all work for the public. And I think that sometimes in these positions, we forget that. We forget who we work for right? Like I always tell people that if you're going to work in a community, they better see you as a leader, someone that kind of share some of those community values. Regardless, nobody cares what your personal deep held views are, because at the end of the day, we're we work for the public. And you're they're the ones that pay the bills, they're the ones that are going to cast judgment on upon us, pass judgment on us, and as jury members of juries. And so I would say the difference is you cut out the middleman when you're the sheriff and you work directly for the public, but you need to have that mindset as a police chief as well, because at the end of the day, I think elected officials and like your city manager relies on the on the electeds, right, to keep his or her job, but I think ultimately we all rely on the public to keep our jobs when we're in a public service. And so you got to be able to be strong enough, even if you're in the city manager role form of government or a strong mayor form of government, to respectfully and in private have those conversations. Hey, like I used to tell my bosses, listen, remember this. I and my department are probably your number one liability or or asset, depending on how things go. And my job is that this is my guy, this is my life's work. I know the I know relational policing, I understand the public psyche. I always try to represent the values of the community I'm serving in. And it's always been pretty progressive, but it also runs the gamut, right? And most Americans are like I said, they're they're center right, they're center left, but most Americans don't veer too far to either extreme because what they want is results, right? And so go out, deliver results, boss. If I'm your chief, we don't need two police chiefs, right? We only need we can only have one because everybody can see right through that, and you have then you have no stakeholders that will follow you, respect you, or believe in you. They're just thinking this person is just a windsock that goes whatever way the wind is blowing and just wants to appease their bosses. My job is to make the department successful, keep the community and officers safe, and if we do those things and weigh in on public policy as it relates to public safety, not not, not windmills or some other stuff. That's not in our purview, right? So I think I think if you have that mindset and you and you do have that public support, you'll end up being just fine, which brings you to the when Donald Trump was running the first time for office, I was a chief in this is back in what 15, I think it was, that election cycle. And he was coming to Austin. If you remember back then, in a lot of places there was a little civil disturbances going on. There was all these crazy protests, and I and Austin's a very progressive city surrounded by a pretty conservative, kind of like a lot of America, rural versus, rural is more progress, more conservative, urban is more progressive. And when that man came to Austin to actually campaign, I was at the bottom of Trump One when that L, whatever that plan, I think he has an L10. I don't remember what plane he has. Mr. Trump, welcome to Austin. I'm Art Acevedo. I will be part of this operation all day. And because I'm not worried about what people think, my job was whether it's him or Hillary Clinton or anybody else, is to let them campaign. But the interesting thing, his first stop was at the ACL Moody theater, the Austin City Limits Theater for a town hall meeting. And inside was a sold-out crowd for a town hall with Fox News. So that's you can imagine the people inside that town hall were predominantly very conservative, right? So and then on the outside, we had all on the other side of the aisle, that if you're taking time to protest, you're pretty, committed and passionate about to left of center. All I know is when I walked in and before the town hall started, people, hey, it's chief of Acevedo, and everybody started clapping for the police chief. Okay. So then later on, when the town hall is getting ready to end, now I want to go outside to get eyes on everything. So I'm going to be held accountable. I lead from the front, not from some command post. I'd rather trust my own eyes. And as I go out, now you got people in costumes and these big masks and noses and all kinds of crazy stuff. And they all start clapping. Very different politically, but I think at the end of the day, if you lead from the front and you lead in a manner where people know what you think, what you stand for what you believe in, and you focus on public safety, the people really, even when they disagree with you, they appreciate the honesty, they appreciate the engagement, but more than anything, they appreciate that the chief took the time to be out in the field making sure that everyone was safe. And I think that's key.

No, I couldn't agree more. And I back to the city manager/mayor construct. I you're there will be, I'm sure there'll be multiple times a year that the police agency is a liability, but every 911 call, it's an asset.

Amen. If we do it right, that's exactly right. Every single call.

And I try to tell my friends, people who don't know much about policing. I said, look, you call them on your worst day, and you might have one worst day, hopefully in your life, four or five times. They have that kind of day, almost every day, at least they see and they see people in their worst conditions, and they have to deal with that again and again and again, and by the way, when you open your door and let them in, that's because of the trust that you have with the institution and respect the trust because that it's it's it's been earned, it's been earned over decades of of of billions of 911 calls where the outcome was what it should have been in terms of taking care of the public.

So that's why people still call 911 here, and let's face it 99 times out of 100, we're actually going to make things better, not worse. And so I think that speaks to it's and it's across the board, right? From poor communities to rich communities to minority communities to promptly Caucasian communities, they all call us, and nine times 99 times out of 100, we make things better, not worse. And so I think that speaks volumes as to this generation of police officers. They're the best trained, best equipped, most educated, most professional, I think, in the history of American policing. And my hat is off to everyone out there serving today.

Well, and I think I and I think, frankly, from what I've seen, no disrespect to policing around the world, but I do see the amount of training, the tools that the U.S. officers get, and and frankly, the challenges they're dealing with right? I mean, the challenges today are fundamentally different than the challenges when you started, the, the amount of mental illness and the amount of drug use and the social issues that police have to deal with and have to be the first on the scene. You mentioned in your last comments this notion of relational policing, which is one of I think a I think you may have coined that term, and that's different than community policing. What give it give give me a bit more detail of that?

Well, what? I was in a I was in a meeting with my city manager, Marc Ott, in D.C. On community policing many years ago when I was in Austin. And I was getting a little bored, because we have ADHD. I think we all had ADHD growing up, we just didn't know it. It wasn't, and there was no medicine for us. Like get your butt back to work and do your school work type of thing. And so I was doodling and and community policing, we kept talking about, oh, we chiefs kept saying, we don't have enough cops. They're going from call to call to call to call, I was really thinking about it's not about capacity in terms of call volume, it's about the quality of each and every contact. So on a napkin, I drew out, the tenets of of relational policing, and that's an understanding that every contact is the beginning of a relationship, right? And it may be the only contact we ever have. So we should conduct ourselves in a manner that will, again, make a friend not a foe. And then when you think about this melting pot we call America, right, is that we want to have to the best extent of our, to the best of our ability, have the cultural competence. And I and I've talked about this where you say treat people the way you want to be treated, which is based on a biblical verse. I said joke about, sorry, good Lord, I'm going to have to take that a little bit step further, because I think that we should treat people, it's not a one-size-fits-all life. If you're going to be in the public service, right, where you're serving, again, people from all walks of life, all different values. That's, America, let's face it, is not vanilla, it's it's everything, it's a mosaic, it's a it's such a beautiful fabric, our country, you educate yourself in in terms of the people you're serving, and you try to serve people and treat them the way they want to be treated, right? And so that relational policing really took off and I came up with the acronym TREAT, which is about transparency, respect, engagement. You've got to engage to build the emotional capital. So it's T-R-E-E transparency, respect, engage to build emotional accountable capital that we're going to need. We don't know when but we're going to somewhere, some right now, someone in this country is going to screw something up really badly, it's just because human nature, right? I like to say that as a Christian, I like to say Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and it wasn't in vain. We made it worth that sacrifice, right? So then you want to be engaging to build the emotional capital. Then we have to hold people accountable. We got to hold ourselves accountable, we have to hold each other accountable, and we have to hold the public accountable. And if we do all those things through relational policing and with every contact and everything we do and how we do things, we end up building the most important commodity, and that's trust. Right? Because with trust through relational policing, with that transparency, respect, engagement, to build emotional capital, hold each other accountable, we build that trust, and that's something when you have trust, you have better outcomes for everyone. You have better outcomes for men and women in blue, you have better outcomes for the community, you have better outcomes for the taxpayers. And at the end of the day, I think we have better outcomes as human beings. So that's really what relational policing in a nutshell is about. And it's about, just treating people right, man, make things better, don't make things worse, be part of the solution, not part of the problem. And I think respect goes a a long way. And by the way, respect for us starts with self-respect, respect of the uniform, your uniform appearance, respect of your colleagues, respect of your oath of office. And like the president of the New Black Panther Party, and one of the activists in Austin, a really good guy, but he told me something really profound one time. He goes, Chief, he's in my office, and he kind of reminded me of Mr. T. He just had that really over-the-top personality, and he would talk like Mr. T. It was, I'm not going to do an impersonation, he'll piss somebody off, I'm sure, but I love this guy. I mean, I've been gone from Austin as police chief for almost 10 years now, and these activists still reach out to me, community leaders still reach out to me. My cops still reach out to me, and not to mention, I see him, but he said, what the difference is between that fool that's acting the fool on the streets and your officers? I go, what's that? He says, Your officers took an oath. They took the oath of office. And those, and when they lower themselves to the level of the street, that fool on the streets that's acting the fool, they're the ones that are going to lose. They're the ones that have a lot to lose, and then your profession has a lot to lose. I thought that was so profound that he said that. And I've shared it with cops over the years just to remind them what? The difference between you and the biggest crook out there is that you took an oath. They didn't. So you're not just violating the trust, you're violating your oath, and that's very damaging.

Well, and to your point, don't take the oath. If you, I mean, it's a huge amount of authority, of trust that the public gives you. And if you don't, if you can't live up to it, don't take it and don't wear the badge, to your point.

What's so funny, though you use the word authority. People go, you have a lot of power. I go, no, we have zero power. See, power comes from misusing authority, power comes from abusing authority, power comes from not respecting the rule of law, right? And so you nailed it. We have authority that's bestowed upon us based on the Constitution, based on the law, and we should never think that, I would get criticized by my family. Hey, why don't you park there? And like no, I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to abuse that authority, I'm just not going to do it. Matter of fact, that's why I didn't have a job in Miami for more than six months, because a couple of those politicians thought that we should be, an instrument for their political views in terms of targeting business people. And I'm sorry, I the only thing we have complete, there's only there's one thing we have complete control over, and that's our integrity. And no, I didn't come here to keep a job, I came here to do a job. And if targeting people and violating their constitutional rights for your political whims, that's not in my wheelhouse. That's not the way I was raised. I'll never forget when I was told, hey, this is Miami, sometimes you have to put your integrity aside. And I'm going to say maybe you have to put your integrity aside, but last time I checked, this is Miami is part of the United States, and I came here with my integrity, I'm leaving with my integrity, and I'm glad I was able to model that behavior that you should talk about, the Police Executive Leadership Institute. Leaders come to work to do their jobs, not keep their jobs, and they're willing, they'd rather lose their jobs for doing it than to keep it by not doing it.

I mean that at least feels the right bar to me, I'd be remiss before we and I love I could I could spend all day talking to you. Second and last question, what I try to explain to people is and it the United States is very, very unusual internationally. The notion of having 18,000 independent agencies, born from the Minutemen, from the local militias that were there to protect that community from the power of the King of England and how those some of those entities evolved into police agencies and how how wonderful it is that each community gets to vote and gets to their own stamp on what policing looks like in the United States. The challenge, of course, is the notion of standards and enforcement policies and use of force policies, and it is a mosaic which can be quite confusing for folks. And so in your role, I mean explain, explain how these associations help shape policing in America because they're the Major Cities Chiefs is super important to create some degree of commonality across all these different locations, which have very different people's different points of view about how policing should look.

Yeah, that's a great question. Look, I think first of all, that local control comes with a great cost, right? I mean, if you think about 18,000 police departments, 18,000 repositories of evidence and pieces of puzzles. So for from from a I like to say it's probably the most inefficient and effective policing model in the world. There's a reason in most countries they only have a a handful, but we, let's face it, we started our the Boston Tea Party started this the beginning of the this experiment we call the United States. And we as Americans truly have never really completely trusted government, and we've always appreciated local control, which is right now, I'm not sure in the last 10 years, 15, 20 years, that's kind of gone sideways. But that comes at a cost, right? Because you do have just just way too much out there. So anyway, that's why it's important to be part of major part of Major Cities Chiefs or IACP or the Police Executive Research Forum or NOBLE or any of these organizations because they help really bring people together, from across the country. Right now I'm at the National Association of Women Law Enforcement Executives Annual Training Conference. And PERF starts on Wednesday in Los Angeles. So, and it brings people together to discuss these issues, to share wins and losses, to share ideas. So, because at the end of the day, regardless of whether we're 18,000 or one, we still only have one Constitution. And when it comes to the use of force policies and a lot of the things that we rely on, just about all our policies, the beginning domino, the beginning brick, the beginning foundation of that policy, of that procedure is truly the Constitution of the United States and the constitutional rights of our citizens and the people that we lead. So being part of these organizations are important because not only do they share best practices, not only do they have these great conversations where we talk about wins and losses and we share them with our colleagues across the state, across the nation, we can also take on positions and where there's a firearm policy, which in our country is very controversial. There's extremes on both ends of that policy. Some people that don't want any guns, some people that want guns for everybody, no questions asked. And so when you join these organizations, sometimes we as an organization, as president of the Major Cities Chiefs, for example, I would be able to put out the views of based on policy position papers of the organization, and then we can speak in terms of individual chiefs based on this is the position of the Major Cities Chiefs, I think it's the 79 largest agencies or 79 some of the biggest agencies in the country. I think about nine from Canada. And I think it provides cover for us, it provides legitimacy for us, and more importantly, it provides a voice, a collective voice for America's police chiefs in these different organizations and the police executives to speak based not on the political whims of a mayor and council, of a legislature, of a congress, but based on the professional judgment of your colleagues across the country.

And tying it back to the Constitution, which is the right, the right beginning to your point. Because at the end of the day, that's the that's what you take your oath to. You don't take your oath to a mayor, you don't take your oath to a city council, you take your oath to the Constitution. Amen.

You nailed it.

, Chief, like I said, I could spend hours here, you've been so grateful, so thoughtful, and I'm so grateful for taking the time. And I've learned just a heck of a lot. One last question. This one's an easy one. We make a small donation in your honor. Where can we where can we send a check with your name on it?

What? I would I would check, I would send it to the Austin Community College. I'm a product of a community college as an immigrant, and the first person in my family to graduate from college in the United States. The Austin Community College has a scholarship fund when I gave the graduation address many years ago, and they still have one every year. So if you if you send it there, that'd be great.

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed and appreciated the conversation as much as I did. My big takeaway for me is not the power, but the privilege to be a police chief, the honor to be a police chief, but the great responsibility that it brings with it. And it was the first time someone's really articulated the, the true basis of for whether you should take that role, yeah and you shouldn't take it if you need it, because you will be a hostage to the local political pressure. And that's as as as Chief Acevedo has laid out, your pledge is to and your oath is to the Constitution, not to the local politician. And for police chiefs out there listening, hats off to you to maintain your independence, hats off to you to maintain your integrity. That's the only way to really maintain the trust of the American people in a in a in a very, very honored profession. And keeping yourself, steering yourself clear of of those dangerous waters, boy, that was really a wonderful takeaway. The other for me is this notion of relational policing. Community policing, I mean, I think in the old days, you could think it was easy to be a good relational cop because you were on the you were on the sidewalk, you did know everyone, you did have that relationship. But now that's not the case. And just being in the community is not enough. And this notion of relational policing, which is getting out there under the treat acronym, getting out there and building relationships and earning that respect and earning that trust, is what officers have to do today. So, two of many takeaways. Well, folks, so appreciated his time. So appreciate having the chance to speak with Chief Acevedo. And I do hope he runs for sheriff. If I'll move to Austin and vote for him, this again, let me tell you, my name is Bob Plaschke. Hopefully, you've enjoyed this episode of First Response, we're the number one podcast that focuses about not the police badge, but what's behind the police badge and talks about the people behind them. And you heard a great deal about American policing today from Chief Acevedo. I'd be remiss not thanking PepperBall, who sponsors this podcast, and where I have the honor to serve as the chief executive officer. And again, PepperBall creates non-lethal alternatives to guns that police use every day to keep themselves and the public they serve safe. We'll see you next time. And thanks so much for listening.