Do All Christians Have to Know how to Counsel? [47]

Host: TJ Freeman

Summary: In this episode of Back to Rurality, host TJ Freeman, a rural pastor in Pennsylvania, discusses how to turn to faith during difficult times and help others who come to you with their struggles. TJ is joined by fellow rural pastor Anthony Caiola. The conversation covers the responsibilities of being a Christian in a small town, including the importance of authenticity, being in the Word, and participating in community activities. They emphasize the role of Christians as ambassadors for Christ, the need to support one another, and the importance of prayer and Scripture in guiding and helping those in need. The episode encourages rural Christians to embrace their unique positions to make Christ known in their communities.

Connect with Us:

• Website: backtorurality.com
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• Email: tj@brainerdinstitute.com

Transcript

TJ: Where do you turn when life gets tough? Do you have somebody that you go to? Do you go to some kind of a self-help book? Do you feel like you need to call up your pastor? And what do you do when other people's life goes south and they start coming to you? Do you feel equipped to respond to those kinds of issues? Well we want to help you in both cases.

On this episode of Back to Rurality, thanks for joining us.

 Thank you for joining us for another edition of Back to Rurality. My name is TJ Freeman and I am a rural pastor. I live in what we affectionately call the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania. Really hard to find my town, and nobody really ends up here by accident.

It's the kind of place you'd have to know about and choose to go to. I assume you live in a place like that too. Or you probably wouldn't be listening to back to rurality. So, you know, like I know how it feels to have problems and struggles and be afraid to share those things. Embarrassed that somebody in the town's gonna find out.

Worried about your reputation. Not sure who you can trust or who you'd even turn to anyway. You also know what it feels like to have people come to you and be, you're just like, I got no idea what to say to you right now. Well, as a Christian who lives in the middle of nowhere, you might be the only one who has the real answer to point people to.

You may also not know who to turn to, but there's another Christian who lives in your town that you could get some help. And encouragement from, and you need to learn how to do that and how to work through scripture together. So today, I'm pretty sure we have our first ever guest on Back to Rurality. I could be forgetting and if I am, I'm sorry.

Somebody write to me and point it out, but I want to introduce to you my friend. And a fellow rural pastor, Anthony Caiola. Welcome brother. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Anthony: Yeah, man. I'm excited to be here and if I'm not the first guest, I'm gonna claim that title. 

TJ: We're giving it to you. 

Anthony: Uh, my name's Anthony Caiola.

I'm a lead pastor of a church called Awaken five 14 in a small town, about an hour south in an hour west of where you're at. But nonetheless, one of those places where you don't wind up there. I guess, I guess I could say a little different. We have a truck stop off a major highway. Yes, that's right.

So people do wind up there for a moment to fill up their gas tank by accident, but beyond that, uh, you really have to be committed and, and show up there intentionally. 

TJ: And they may not have even realized. That they were in Clearfield. Correct. They were just like, I that one spot on 80, you know? 

Anthony: Yes. And I have filled up there before meeting my wife years ago and, and moving there.

I had filled up at that gas station at that, that, you know that exit? 

TJ: Yeah, that's right. Well, it's the only one for Miles. 

Anthony: Miles it feels like. Yes. 

TJ: Yeah. Yep, that's right. So, and how long have you been pastoring there? 

Anthony: We have, uh, we planted the church back in 2020, and so we've been pastoring there in different capacities for about eight years.

Pastoring the church that I'm at now for five years. 

TJ: Okay, that's great. Well, we're really happy to have you here. So let me just get right outta the hood really fast. Have you ever faced struggles that you were ashamed of or embarrassed to talk about? 

Anthony: Never, uh, no, never. Never found a struggle I was ashamed to actually, it's funny maybe, uh, because of my background, 'cause of the nature I may not have faced a struggle I was ashamed to talk about.

Although I, I will say there's probably a handful. But yeah, I think we've all faced struggles where yeah, we're, we're afraid to talk about 'em. We're afraid that people are gonna judge us. We're afraid of people are gonna think differently about us. 

TJ: Lemme just say, point out to the listener, you're Italian? 

Anthony: Correct.

TJ: And you're from New Jersey? 

Anthony: And I'm a middle child. 

TJ: And you're a middle child. All right? 

Anthony: Yeah. So I didn't know I'm a trifecta. They, they basically might as well nickname me mouth. 'cause I have no filter and I never stop talking. 

TJ: That's great. Yeah. But yet you can understand what it feels like to, of course, to have that pressure of, of course, I've got an issue here.

How about this one? Have you ever heard someone share their problems and you're like, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that? 

Anthony: Oh, of course, all the time. You know, I don't know. We've talked in the past. I don't know that there's any place that fully equips you or prepares you to walk entirely through the mess, that is just a broken, sinful world.

Just life. It's filled with mess and every one of us have a different story. And, uh, no matter how long you've been on the ground, no matter how long you've been doing this, no matter how many times, even for professional counselors that have sat down and done counseling for years, I'm not sure anything ever fully equips you.

To be ready for just the uniqueness that is each one of our stories and the mess that we encounter. 

TJ: So why do you think it's important in the rural community to start talking about these things? Because it's much easier just to hide behind whatever label the, the community's given you, and you start living according to that mindset.

You know, this is just who I am in my small town. Why is it important to break out of that and just be open and honest, especially for a Christian? 

Anthony: Yeah, I, I think one of the most powerful things in the modern era that a Christian can probably do to point to the good news of Jesus Christ is to be authentic.

And I know it's a bit of a buzzword, but to be transparent about. Um, their life, their struggles, and what Christ not only has done for them, but is doing for them now. Right. And so rural America, how has this tendency to do one of two things. One is they, they remember who you were in high school. No matter what you do, you can't shake that reputation.

Right. And then the other side of it is those who maybe don't have that high school reputation who grew up on the maybe right side of the tracks. You forever have a persona you have to protect. Both are incredibly dangerous when it comes to the gospel. The, the guy who had a, a wildlife in high school that nobody will let him forget.

That guy has to be reminded regularly and walk in. Hi, the new creation that is. Him or her in Christ. And then for the person who grew up and, and protected their reputation because their parents owned a business in town, or their dad was the principal, or, there's a, a stigma that comes to that where you can't ever be honest because you're, you're so self-protective.

But, but I would say that the danger we fall into is like first John would say, if you say you have no sin, then the truth of God is not in you. And, and most of us wouldn't outright say, I have no sin. But the way that we live that out is by every single time an opportunity comes up to be confronted in our sin or to be exposed in our sin or just our imperfections we find a way to escape it and rebuild our own reputation.

And in a way, the word self justifying. We're not letting Jesus justify us. We're not looking to Jesus and saying, Hey, you, you are my savior. You are the one who makes me righteous. We're saying, all of the persona that I've been able to convince you that exists, that really doesn't exist. Uh, but everything I've been able to convince you, that's what justifies me.

That's what makes me righteous in your eyes. 

TJ: Yeah, it's, you bring up an interesting point. I think about myself in high school. And I was not a nice guy. I primarily tried to use other people to elevate my own status, and it goes all the way back to seventh grade when I had a crush on a girl. And that girl finally paid attention to me one day, just long enough to tell me she hated the way I was dressed.

Hmm. Like crushed me. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: And it opened my eyes to the fact that there's an in-crowd and an out crowd, and I was very much in the out crowd. And then realizing that, I was like, well, I gotta do whatever it takes to get in the in-crowd. So I started trying to live my life for the approval of a bunch of people that truthfully, I didn't really wanna be like anyway.

Right. But I didn't, I couldn't stand the fact that they didn't accept me. Yeah. It just drove me nuts. I think a lot of teenagers feel that way. And I just became. My, like, weapon of choice was making fun of other people. Yeah. And so if you could make somebody laugh by putting down somebody else, then that was a way to do it.

And it left me with a pretty bad reputation. Hmm. Uncaring, selfish, mischievous. I got that one one time as well. Nice. Yeah. So when I thought about moving back to Pennsylvania to pastor after pastoring in southwest Florida. I had some real fear about, 

Anthony: yeah, 

TJ: do I, can I really go back to the county I was grew that I grew up in where I have that reputation and is anybody gonna take me seriously?

That was a really hard thing to face. And some of our listeners, you, you are in that boat, you have a reputation that you got in high school or you have some moment in your history that sticks out in everybody's mind. In your community, or at least you have that perception. I wanna encourage you, one of the best things I ever did was to move back to this place.

And people have generally understood, hey, we all have a past. None of us wanna be defined by it. And it's given me a lot of really good gospel opportunities to, to show the mercy of Christ, even to somebody like me. 

Anthony: Yeah. One of our pastoral residents had said recently, uh, he had started a, like a 20 somethings, uh, Bible study.

It was, it was a men's group. And he'd invited one of his friends that he knew before his, you know, conversion to Christ. And uh, he did something really neat that really challenged me in this specific area. He had went to that guy and just came to the front door and said, Hey, you followed me before Christ.

He said, for you, it's gonna be the hardest. You're gonna be the hardest person to come and watch me lead this Bible study because you knew me before Christ. What I would ask. And he was so bold in this and I loved it. He said, what I would ask is that you give me an opportunity to demonstrate that I'm a new creation and I wanna.

You know, one, apologize to you for who I was, and I also want to ask that you give me the opportunity to demonstrate what Christ has done in me. And I was like, man, that, that was so wise and so incredible as he was stepping back into a similar culture and context where, uh, I don't know his full story about where he had come from or what he had done, but, uh, to just be so self aware as he was stepping back into that situation and, and be filled with such wisdom.

Just call it out. Call it what it's. Hey, this is who I used to be. Let me re-earn your respect as a follower of Christ. Not that I'm worthy of that respect, but let me have the opportunity to show you what Jesus has done in me. 

TJ: So on this podcast, it's back to rurality. We're primarily thinking of people in small towns who don't have easy access to a healthy church.

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: So if that's you, you may be one of the very few Christians in your town. And you may also be quiet, shy, timid, whatever, or hiding behind a facade. And here's some encouragement to you, is that you have a responsibility as a new creation to do what Anthony just said, and to make the fact that you've been transformed by Jesus known to the people around you.

So here, here's an encouragement for you on this episode. Is that jesus came as the word of God made flesh, and he came to make known to us what God is like. We have not seen the Father. You do that, you die, but we have seen him in Christ and the same thing is now true of you. Christ has died. He's been resurrected, and then he ascended and he gave us a ministry of reconciliation.

We are his ambassadors. So you're in your small town not to just not make waves, not just to try to fit in, not just to have a nice career. You're there to continue the work that Jesus began of making known the reality of what God is like. And your past and your struggles and all of that will actually help you be able to do that.

So one thing you need to get comfortable with as a Christian living out there, maybe one of the few, is speaking up. And that is so hard to do. But that is absolutely one of the best ways that we can make Christ known is actually testifying to who we are now because of what Jesus Christ has done on our behalf.

So anything else you wanna say about that, Anthony, before I switch to helping people who come to you who are struggling. 

Anthony: I mean, I, I just think when we think about that idea of being ambassadors for Christ, I, I think we, we have to start thinking about us as believers and then even if we don't have a local church the community of believers that we're able to build around us, whether that's you.

You and your spouse, you, your spouse, your kids, uh, your family, and some extended family or some, you know, cluster of friends. This idea of, of ambassadors is really this idea of, we, we are kind of kingdom outposts, right? So, so ambassadors, uh, go to a foreign country. They, they represent the country that they come from.

They demonstrate all the values. They live under the same laws of the, the country or kingdom that they come from. And likewise, as citizens of the kingdom of God. We represent King Jesus as ambassadors to the world, wherever we are. And that could be in a community with a population of 300, uh, that could be in a community of a population of 30,000 or beyond.

We are the ambassadors to the nations of the world and get to be representatives of Christ's kingdom. And so there's something really beautiful about that call and, and. Being willing to accept that where we've been placed. Paul makes an interesting statement When he is preaching in Athens, he says, the very times and places in which you dwell have been predestined or carved out by God, so that you might find your way towards him, although he is not far from any of us.

And, and really that applies to your neighbors. And, and the reason he's not far from any of us, certainly spiritually, he's never far from us, but all we have to do is turn right, repent, and, and believe, but then he's not far from any of us because you're there. Yeah. You are there. You're, you are the representation of the light of Christ. He sent you.

Exactly. Yeah. And so he's not far from your neighbor because you're right next door. 

TJ: That's right. And I think this is what you really need to get ahold of. This is the whole reason we started this podcast. We want you to understand your responsibility not assigned by any human, but given by Christ.

Mm-hmm. So you became a Christian. You not only, you know, get out of hell, you also become a representation of Christ's kingdom here on earth. You're here to make him known. You're, that's why you live for him, right? One 'cause you love him, but two, because he wants to make himself known through you. That's, that's really why he saved you.

He saved you 'cause he loves you, but he also saved you and primarily saved you for the sake of his own name. Yeah. God created everything for his glory. He demonstrates his glory through humans made in his image, but especially humans who he, who he has redeemed and saved so that even though we've sinned against him, we can be completely forgiven, restored to him and present with him for all eternity in his kingdom, which we get to see visibly.

Through the presence of his people now. So we're getting like theological weeds here that we don't normally get this deep into, but I want you to understand why you're actually here. Dear, dear listener, it's to demonstrate the Kingdom of Christ, and if you're one of the few Christians in your community, you have out weighted kingdom responsibility.

What I mean by that is if you were in a city with thousands and thousands of other Christians, you know, you're all working together to demonstrate the glory of Christ in that place. If you're one of two or five or 10 Christians in your place, the amount of responsibility that's on your shoulders is much greater because you are the representation of Christ's kingdom in your place.

Maybe there's miles and miles where there's no other Christian. So you really have that responsibility to take seriously. Which leads me to the next question. So when people see that you are transformed and you're a new creation, and you have a peace that passes understanding. You have a joy in the Lord no matter what you face.

That raises questions in the minds of unbelievers and struggling Christians both. And you may find that people start to come to you with some problems and you may feel wildly ill-equipped to do that. So Anthony, how would you encourage somebody in that situation to take that responsibility and lean into it instead of running away?

Anthony: Yeah, I mean, I would, I would say two. Two things, especially, one, get into the word. When we, we had an opportunity, my wife and I, in, I think it was 2010, to travel to Russia on a, on a short missions trip. And, uh, we had gotten a chance to visit a number of local churches there. And, uh, Russia was never a destination place for me.

But what was interesting was getting to plug in with a bunch of church plants, longtime churches and discovering how very different they were. When I'd come back, I was in a season where we were at the time anticipating planting a church in that, that season. And the question I came back was. What would happen if we planted the seeds of the gospel and the soil in which we're planted if we stripped away all of our pre prees estimations of what church is or has to be or look like?

Because sometimes that's not always possible. It may be possible in a more densely populated place, but if it's just you, if it's just a small community, church looks much more like the early church. Yeah. And, and while you may not have a, a full-time paid past, you know, pastor or staff. If you are in the word and you're growing in the word, um, and it is not only speaking into your life, but you're finding new and creative ways to apply it in the context that you're in.

As you talk with your neighbors, you engage with your kids' athletics or whatever it may be you're gonna find that you are. So beautifully equipped for when the opportunities present themselves. So first and foremost, be in the word. I, I cannot stress that enough. And then secondly, look for opportunities.

Just look for places where you can be present in your community. Uh, when we have a, a small, I think it's been going for about 160 years or beyond, community picnic in one of the local towns outside of my, my main area, about 20 minutes outside of our area. It's a very, very, very remote place.

And uh, this little picnic is like the highlight of their year. Where the opportunity presents itself, be involved in those community activities. That's great. And then I guess the third thing I would say, I only said two, but the third thing I would say is don't be afraid to fail. You know, be a fool for Christ. It's okay. Be a fool for Christ. He, he has paid the debt for your sin.

He loves you. He has brought you near. He you will get to see him one day, face to face, and spend eternity with your king. Who cares what your neighbor thinks of you? Go look like a fool for Christ. If you're gonna look like a fool for something, let it be Christ. 

TJ: That's great. Another thing that maybe you could remember is Jesus Christ came to you in your time of need.

He didn't shrink away and he's placed you in your community so that you can be there for people in their time of need. So you don't need a degree. You don't need to go to seminary. You don't need to have 10 years, you know, as a, as a really faithful Christian, you can be a brand new believer in your town, and you go, all right, I'm not sure I know the answer to this, but I know that the answer is in God's word and I'm confident about that.

So I'm gonna pray for you. You know, if this person's not a Christian, like saying, let's pray together isn't, I mean, sure do it, but you're the, you're the one that has the relationship with the Lord, not them, but letting them know, I'm gonna pray for you. That's huge and then pointing them to the word and showing them how it has answers.

You at least knew enough to get saved, right? You know enough scripture that you know that you are a sinner and you need to savior, and that's the only savior available is Jesus, and that if you turn from your sin and trust him alone for salvation, you will be saved. You also know enough scripture to know that the Lord actually loves you and is near you.

Those kinds of things. These are the kind of things that you say to people. So it doesn't matter if it's somebody who just had a crisis, somebody who's struggling with an addiction, somebody who's depressed, whatever. You just start to talk to them about the relationship you have with the Lord and what you're learning from his word.

Sure, pray with them, but commit to actually praying for them and then keep pointing to the Christ. And if they're a Christian, I mean together, just go before the Lord. There's a totally different relationship there. Where you can say, why don't we pray right now? So for the Christian, you're not like, I'll pray for you.

Like, let's go together before the throne of God right now, and we'll pray. And then you start digging into the word Anthony if, if people got involved in a church in their area and start thinking about how the church plays a role in discipling and counseling, how would you want 'em to think about that?

So. We're we've been talking about kinda like lone wolf, Christian, off by yourself. What's the role of the broader body of Christ in this? 

Anthony: Yeah, that's great. And it depends on your role in that church. Are you a pastor, an elder, a congregant, and just a member? But I, I think if you're a, honestly, I guess, I guess all of those things have their distinct application, but I think no matter what your role in that church is, the call is the same.

Go and make disciples of all nations, right? And so no matter where you are, whether you're a remote or rural pastor, whether you're an elder of a church, you're, you're helping to lead a small group where you just attend that church on Sundays. I think the. The call for you is again, to be present in your community and involved to be making sure that the word is not only being spoken through you, but lived out in your life and, and ultimately transforming your life.

You're becoming more, um, peace-filled you're becoming more loving. You're, you're projecting a hope. You're projecting transparency. Uh, there's a lot of great things that churches do as far as activities and events. Uh, sometimes I think we, we do those events once or twice a year, the VBS or whatever it may be.

And we feel like we've done ministry and, and we have in a sense, but it is not the entirety of the call of our ministry. The call is for us all to go and make disciples. If you're in leadership, it's to equip the saints to go and make disciples. And so where you can, uh, grab a few people, do life together, find ways to be involved in your community.

Find creative places to get to know your kids teachers, coaches, the, you know, corner store that you buy your milk and eggs at. I mean, at the end of the day, your relational presence and your ability to project Christ everywhere you go, in your attitude, in your words, in the way in which you love your wife.

Or love your husband or love your kids, uh, speaks volumes about your ability to go out and make disciples. And so be intentional. Uh, if you're part of a local community of faith, you can do this inside the church and outside the church. You're not restricted to whatever church programs that church has.

Just take up the mantle, light yourself on fire in a world to come and watch you burn. 

TJ: That's awesome. That is a good word to end on. We do like to summarize though what we learn in each episode, so. Can you give us a, just a brief summary of,?

Anthony: I think I just did by quoting Spurgeon. I, uh, if you set yourself on fire, I mean, I, I think that would be my call is, is know your word.

Love the Lord. Paul writes in first Corinthians 15 he, he talks about the gospel in kind of three tenses. He says, the gospel in which you receive, past tense, the gospel by which you currently stand, and a gospel by which you are being saved, it's future tense. So I would simply say stand in the gospel.

What that means is every single day understand that you have sinned. One way or another, whether it was in the past or in the present, uh, you are a sinner and desperate need of a savior. And if you walk in a posture of worship, celebrating the God who loves you, whose own son died for your sin and you, you are on fire with that incredible message it will come out in everything you do, in every place that you go.

TJ: Amen. That's good. Hey, we're broken, flawed people, but we have a savior who has overcome all of that. By giving himself to us. Yeah. He became, he offered his body for us, and shed his blood for us to make us whole, and that is so sweet. Praise the Lord for it. 

Anthony: Amen. 

TJ: Dude, it's been great having you here.

Appreciate it. Thanks for being on this episode. And for now, let's get back to life. Back to Rurality.