Time to Wonder Podcast
Time to Wonder Podcast is a place where kids ask questions about museums and we find the answers.
Time to Wonder Podcast
Episode 5 Why are there museums in houses
In this episode, Ava, Lesley and Sue chat with Johnny and Darren who work at Historic Joy Kogawa House in Vancouver Canada. This museum is located in the childhood home of Joy Kogawa, a famous Canadian writer of Japanese descent. Johnny and Darren tell us the history of the house and how it came to be a museum. We also learn a bit about the internment of Japanese Canadians during World War II.
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“Why are there museums in Houses?
Welcome to Time to Wonder podcast, a behind the scenes peek into the world of museums for kids of all ages, everywhere.
Hi, I'm Ava. Hi. I'm Leslie and I’m Sue. And this is a podcast where kids ask questions about museums and we find the answers.
Disclaimer: During this episode we will be talking about the Japanese internment during the Second World War. There is also a brief but non explicit mention of harm against children.
Welcome to our podcast. And today's big question is why are there museums in houses? Today's guests are Johnn Trinh the Interim, Executive director at Historic Joy Kogawa House. As well, we have Darren who is the heritage interpreter intern. They both work at Historic Joy Kogawa House, a Museum that lives in a house.
HI you two? How are you doing? Hi, Johnny. Hi, Darren. How are you guys today?
Great. We're good.
Did you want to tell us a little bit more about the Joy Kogawa house?
Yes, we're really stoked to be here and talking about the place we work and get to work. It's the Historic Joy Kogawa House. This is a house that has become a heritage site and it has a lot of really important purposes. One of the main purposes right now, one of our jobs is we get to be a house, a home for writers. A lot of important writers come into our space, and they work on their next big project, the next big story or collection of poems or a cookbook or play. Any type of writing is welcome in this space and the reason we do that is because this was the childhood home of Joy Kogawa and she wrote the book Obasan. This book is important because it really talks in a human way and detailed the stories of Japanese Canadians who experienced the Interment during World War II. There's a lot of heavy stories that are in this space here. And what Joys been able to do is bring humanity and in some ways fun enjoyment into the work to help be more accessible for folks. Because for many of us living in Canada, a lot of this history wasn't told, which is kind of why this book is so exciting and why being a museum is so exciting because we get to be a living space where people can come in and experience history. I want to say that it’s also important that you know, there's so many layers in histories, right? We are in the world of prequels, right? The story before the story and we want to acknowledge that in this space, in this home, it was the home Nakayama family, including her father. Gordon Goichi Nakayama who was a former member of the Anglican Church. But he hurt a lot of young people and that was a history that was also erased in the process. So, this space is also important to remember. It's important to know people do bad things sometimes and healing requires us to move forward in good ways and make right and apologize and do important work. So, this house represents all of those things. And we also have groups like the Ukulele group come and play once a month, every Sunday. It's really nice place to hang out. We’re happy to share it.
Are there any other houses that are museums?
Yes, there are a lot of heritage sites across Canada that are living museums.
Do you have one on your list?
I do. Before I was lucky enough to work here at the Historical Joy Kogawa House, I used to work at the Maple Ridge Museum in Maple Ridge, my hometown. And one of the buildings they had was the Haney House. That was the house that belonged to Thomas Haney. And so it was also a house that was deemed of heritage importance, which is to say that it was very important to the history of the town. People were put there and paid to maintain the house, to make sure that people could see it and that the story was told and that was my job. I really, really loved it.
There's one thing I'm thinking about when I was a young person. I was born in Ontario, an area called Kitchener Waterloo, just outside Toronto. I generally called Toronto home but grew up in Kitchener and there was a Schneider Haus National Historic Site, which was formally called the Joseph Schneider House, where you may remember the name of the sausages and whatnot. And it’s in Ontario. And in that region, there is a really strong German culture and Oktoberfest. That was the first time I went to a museum living in a house and we learned a lot about what life is like in the early 1900s, late 1800s and whatnot. I think a lot about food, and I think a lot about what people eat at different times. That it was really interesting for me even at that age to learn more about, you know, making butter, making ice cream, making sausages and preserving food. I think that was also really resonant here for a lot of Japanese Canadians coming to Canada, for a lot of cultures coming to Canada, coming to live here, bringing food from wherever they came from to their new home to maintain culture is really important. You know.
What do the neighbors think about living next to museum?
It's a real joy to be able to have that luxury. That is not always the case because sometimes a museum in a house gets busy, you have lots of visitors. But we have this lovely little Free Library at the front of the house that Darren manages. It has a range of books from children's books to novels to recipes in cookbooks and things that people share and it's really, really nice. Sometimes I think the neighbors might think that we have big parties here, but we do not. Just for everyone watching, there are no parties let me make that clear. There are groups and writing groups and readings and poetry readings. A lot of book-based literary arts based programming. I've had the deep privilege, it’s been a great honor to be able to tour the house with families who just want to learn more about the Interment, and a lot of times it's actually families that experienced it themselves. A lot of Japanese Canadians and Japanese Americans were sent off to internment camps. And they were never allowed to come back. And that was really hard and sad. They went to the prairies and to the sugar beet farms. And, so we've had visitors say, “Oh, my grandparents were, or my parents were.” And they're bringing their kids here to come see the house and learn more about the history, which is so powerful. So it's been a real joy to build it and the neighbors are really supportive of that. So it's great, the neighbors are wonderful. We couldn't do this without them.
Who owned the house after Joyce’s family?
So after the house was taken away from Joyce’s family, it was sold to different people that were part of the Marpole community that were not Japanese Canadians so I won't give you the names. But it was moved around outside of Joy’s family for a number of years before it became a museum.
How did it become a museum?
In the 1940s all the way up until 2003. Joy had come back as an older lady and she had visited the house and there was a for sale sign outside and so she and some of her friends asked the person who was selling the house if they could host a poetry night at that house to honor the work that she had done. She had already written Obasan, and so the impact she had for her experiences at the house and during the Interment were being honored by them having a poetry event at the house. From that event (100 people attended) a petition to protect the house and turn it into a heritage space had been started. It wasn't that easy that it just went straight from petition to house. It still took a long time. In 2004, the house was sold to its next owner. In 2005 they applied for a demolition permit and he was going to destroy the house. They notified a group called the Save Kogawa House Committee. They petitioned for a delay to the demolition permit so they can try to raise funds to buy the house and turn it into a museum. They were approved. They got 180 days to try to raise money. And so they were, they were fund raising as hard as they could to try to save the house. By 2006, with a major donation from Senator and activist, Nancy Ruth Jackman, they were able to buy the house. And it took a couple more years to become what it is. From 2004 to 2006 is how long it took for them to really save the house.
I heard that there were school kids that were involved in saving the house and everything as well. Do I have that right?
Yep. So one of our founding members, Joan Young was a school teacher and actually, if folks come to visit the house, in the basement is a very large banner she created with her students. I think they were grade 3 or 4 when they did it and it was just a picture of the house and just really showing the important love from the community.
Did Joy ever say how she feels about her childhood home becoming a museum?
Absolutely. She has been in great support of it and her family feels truly honored because we're celebrating that word and keeping those memories alive. If you come to the house and take a tour you're going to hear a lot of memories on tape. Joy’s voice talking about being a little girl playing with dolls, being in the kitchen playing, and the joy she felt and also how she navigated being different. There was really a different time in the 1940s and unfortunately racism is a real thing and it still is. It appeared differently back then and so she had a hard time. At times at school and whatnot but coming home to a space that felt safe and she said that this house was a place that represented some of some of her happiest memories. Just be able to spark a huge petition that saved the house. She's very pleased appreciative and grateful of that. When Joy’s family left their house did they know they're never going to live in it again. I know Joy did not know that when they were told that they had to leave. When Joy's family and other Japanese Canadians were told by the Canadian government that they had to go to an internment camp, the government told them that they would keep the house safe for them. They would keep all their stuff, they would keep their car, thier house and everything will be there when they get back. And lots of people who were going to internment thought that they were going for a short trip, so they only packed for a short trip, not even packing for all the seasons in some cases. And so Joy thought that her house would still be here. The short trip turned into three years. In order to pay for the internment camp, the Canadian government sold at a huge discount all of their belongings and the house and the cars of every Japanese Canadian to non-Japanese and used that money to fund the internment of them.
Was Joy allowed to take any toys to the camp?
Joy was technically able to, but her and her family had a very limited amount of things they were allowed to bring. Each adult was allowed a heavy suitcase and each child was allowed half that amount of weight as a suitcase and the whole family was allowed to have one sewing machine. It was considered such a necessity that even when you're being deprived entirely of what you need to survive, a sewing machine per family to mend their own clothes was appetizing. You needed it no matter what. So the families were allowed one in addition to the two cases. Don't get it misconstrued that is generous. Families put together their clothing that they needed. They put together reading material, they put together what they needed to continue to do religious practices. They brought food with them 'cause they weren't sure where or how long they were going to go or if it was going to be available. And so Joy, actually, we have videos, of Joy as an adult talking about those times and she says that one of the things that she longed for and she missed the most was having the house and having all of her dolls there, having their dresses, being able to play with those things and the Cherry Tree. And none of those things were with her when she was there.
Thank you for joining us at Time to Wonder podcast. Thanks you too for joining us. We really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Thank you is very interesting.
Welcome back to Part 2. In our next episode, we will be revisiting a question we asked in Episode 1. Were there museums before settlement in what we now call Canada? In this episode, we talked to Megan Jerry, who is a museum tech at Blackfoot Crossing Historical Park in Alberta. She's a member of the Siksika or Blackfoot Nation. We learn about the belongings that families treasured and passed down to the next generations. We also learn about how families passed down patterns for painting teepees and for beading. Megan tells us about the importance of the buffalo to the Siksika and talks about how Chief Crowfoot's many possessions ended up in a museum in England.
Please join us for Episode 6.