Fractional Futures

The Role of Marketing in International Expansion

• Paul Mills • Season 3 • Episode 8

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Fractional Futures is the essential podcast for CEOs, investors, and senior marketing executives looking to unlock the power of fractional marketing leadership.
 
Hosted by Paul Mills, Founder at VCMO, and with special guests, we'll share expert insights, provide actionable strategies and explore real-world success stories to help you leverage fractional marketing leadership for maximum impact.

In this episode

In this episode of Fractional Futures, Paul Mills and Rob Nicholls discuss the complexities of international expansion for businesses. They explore how to adapt marketing strategies for new markets, the importance of building a global brand while maintaining consistency, and the financial risks associated with entering international markets. Rob shares insights on the necessity of market research, building relationships, and the long-term perspective needed for successful brand building in diverse regions.

Special Guest

Rob Nicholls, Founder Rob Nicholls Consulting, CFO, Board Advisor and Angel Investor

Key Takeaways

  • International expansion presents both opportunities and challenges.
  • Cultural, economic, and regulatory differences require tailored marketing strategies.
  • Building relationships with local distributors is crucial for market entry.
  • A strong global brand helps in gaining credibility in new markets.
  • Brand building is a long-term investment, not a short-term tactic.
  • Market research is essential before entering new international markets.
  • Different regions require different entry strategies and pricing models.
  • Trust and partnership building are key in relationship-driven markets.
  • Digital infrastructure must be localized for effective market penetration.
  • Businesses should focus on one or two markets at a time for effective strategy.

Sound Bites

"How should a business approach market entry?"

"It's about getting out there, meeting people."

"Build relationships. It's not difficult to do."

"You have to take a long term perspective on this."

"Don't start dropping your pricing by 10% or 20%."

"Do your research and do it well."

Contact VCMO

Thanks for listening & keep podcasting!

Fractional Marketing Leadership | Marketing Transformed.

Paul Mills (00:03.001)
Hi, welcome to another episode of Fractional Futures, where we're exploring how fractional CMOs help SMEs and portfolio companies accelerate growth and maximize enterprise value. Today, we're discussing one of the most exciting but complex aspects of scaling a business, that's international expansion.

Rob Nicholls (00:06.667)
Okay.

Paul Mills (00:19.897)
So reaching new markets, it presents a huge opportunity for growth, but it also comes with significant challenges, from adapting marketing strategies to different cultures, to overcoming entry barriers and maintaining brand consistency across multiple regions. In this episode, we'll be exploring how businesses can navigate these challenges and use marketing as a strategic, I'll say that bit again.

Rob Nicholls (00:25.848)
you.

Paul Mills (00:43.127)
In this episode, we'll be exploring how businesses can navigate these challenges and use marketing as a strategic enabler of growth globally. I'm going to do that bit again, sorry.

Rob Nicholls (00:45.422)
Thank

Rob Nicholls (00:55.094)
you OK?

Paul Mills (01:02.519)
In this episode, we'll explore how businesses can navigate these challenges and use marketing as an enabler of growth for global. I can't get it right. I've fallen down Rob. I've fallen down. Let's try it again. dear. It doesn't know. It's been a long week. In this episode, we'll explore how businesses can navigate these challenges and use marketing as an enabler for global growth.

Rob Nicholls (01:14.778)
It doesn't happen very often,

Paul Mills (01:26.467)
Joining me in this episode is Rob Nicholls, a strategic CFO, non-exec director and board advisor with over 35 years of global finance experience. Rob specializes in profit maximization and value creation. And today he'll be showing his insights on how CFOs and CMOs can work together to ensure international expansion is both strategic and financially viable. Hi Rob, how are you?

Rob Nicholls (01:50.914)
Good to see you, Paul. Yeah, very well indeed.

Paul Mills (01:53.505)
Are you cleaning down your golf bats ready for another round soon?

Rob Nicholls (01:58.126)
Golf bats are going to be well used this weekend, actually in the next week or so. Yeah, the weather's improving so we're getting out more. That's all good.

Paul Mills (02:05.871)
Fantastic. How many rounds of golf you got in this season? Because I know it's opening up, isn't it? So have you been out and about a lot?

Rob Nicholls (02:10.514)
Well, what? I've done quite well, actually. I've already knocked out 12 rounds in 2025 so far, so it's going quite well. The game actually isn't improving substantially, but we're getting better. I'm just going to keep trying.

Paul Mills (02:25.347)
That's the I think that's what most golfers say, isn't it? It's just a good excuse to get out and have a long walk, isn't it? Anyway, Let's jump into today, Rob. I want to talk, I think this first topic I like to explore is how you can adapt your marketing strategy for new markets. There will become an inflection point at some stage in the business growth cycle, where the only option for growth is to go international.

Rob Nicholls (02:28.974)
Well, that's right, that's right. Some people would say that, yeah.

Rob Nicholls (02:39.628)
Thank

Paul Mills (02:54.239)
And expanding into new international markets, it isn't as simple as replicating what works at home. So cultural, economic and regulatory differences, they require businesses to adapt their marketing strategies to resonate with the local audience. I want to explore how we can strike the right balance between local customization and brand consistency. So Rob, I know you've worked internationally for many, years. From a financial perspective,

How should a business approach market entry? What factors should a CFO and a CMO consider when deciding how much to localize the marketing strategy versus maintaining the standardized approach?

Rob Nicholls (03:35.822)
Well, you this is a great topic as well, because it's very appo pro right now with the sort of the move away from Europe and British businesses looking at other markets, whether it's Asia, North America, the Middle East. And it's something that I've been playing in for 30 odd years as well. used to when I early days I was running the Middle East and Africa for a global technology firm. So I know this this world very well and then spent two decades in in North America living and working in the US as well.

So I think it's very apopro. It staggers me as a nation, an international nation like Britain, that more businesses are not selling or exporting into other markets. Way back when I took a product that basically was a standardized product and took it into 69 countries in the Middle East and Africa, grew distribution through all manner of different processes and practices.

And we took a business that went from 20 million to 120 million in about three years. It wasn't difficult to do, but you learn an awful lot. And your point is well taken about, how do you take a product, a standardized product, and moving into markets? I'm a big believer in strategic alliances, partnerships, building relationships with distribution points of presence in certain markets. And you have to go one market at a time. You go into Egypt.

you need one, two, three distributors. You go into Kenya, you need one, two, three distributors. You should do the same thing in South Africa. And over time, you play the market game that way. I think there's a very deliberate strategy you should apply in any market is you go after the big markets first. So I do a lot of work with companies moving into North America. obviously, Dependent on the product or the service or where you're going and the way you want to

enter that market is the obvious markets for certain products are if you're in oil and gas, you want to look at California and Texas. If you're in hospitality, you want to look at Florida and California. If you're in medtech, you want to look at Connecticut, Massachusetts and California. So you have to pick your markets. And I think that's one of the first things that I tend to work with companies on is pick the right markets before you even start thinking about

Rob Nicholls (06:00.31)
legal entity structures? Is it a distribution strategy? Do we need to set up a legal entity? Do we need to manufacture income in country? know, with the current US administration putting tariffs on an awful lot of things, we need to be very cognizant of that as well. know, A lot of people front ran the whole tariff debacle that's going on right now by importing an awful lot of product into the country in January. So

As a result of that, you're going to get a major tail off in April, May, June, where there's not a lot of economic exporting activity as well. There are people that are playing this game very quickly, very rapidly. I was sat down last night with a client around the dinner table and she's just come back from a trip selling British products into the Middle East, into one country, Dubai, because it's easier.

And the next step is, how do we take it from the Emirates, the same product, exactly the same product, and move it into other markets? She's looking particularly, obviously, at places like Saudi. Great product, great brand, not creating any new brands, just taking the existing brand that is available on the shelves in the UK and putting it into a new market. Not doing anything fancy, but the key factor she's found, and I found 25, 30 years ago was,

was the points of presence. It's partnering with the right people at the right time. Finding people that are invested in your product, that understand your product, that can talk to your product with their end clients as well. And what we found, we generally went with two or three distributors or dealers in country, found the best one and then took away the one that wasn't performing and really doubled down or actually in some instances,

acquired the best distributors in that country. And it takes a period of time. It takes years in many respects, but it's not difficult to do. And I struggle mightily with the fact that most businesses aren't doing it today. There's not a lot of support out there. The DBT, the Department of Trade and Industry, they talk a good game and on the ground in country, they will often talk a good game and they'll invite you to various cocktail drinks and they'll

Rob Nicholls (08:24.544)
introduce you to people. But there's not a lot of systematized processes, templated ways of doing business. It's about getting out there, meeting people, building relationships, reinforcing those relationships, going out there again, getting boots on the ground. And I'm a big believer in getting people into the country. So most of my clients that work in places like the North in North America,

I will advise them to go out and spend six weeks rent an Airbnb and go and live in California, go and live in Miami, go and live in Houston and become part of the business fabric for a period of time. Go to the universities, go to the chambers of commerce, meet the right people, build the right relationships because it will open so many doors over time. Don't just try and ship your product in.

clear it through customs and try and find someone to put your product on the shelf. Build relationships. It's not difficult to do, but you do have to invest time and effort in doing that. Most people don't do that. So my advice would be, be the one that does invest in those relationships, that builds a point of presence in the country. Get people to feel warm and cozy about your product, your service, like them.

You need to like, know and trust them. They need to believe in your product and they need to, you need, there's a certain amount of trust that has to be built up and that will take time. know, the product piece is the easy bit of it. The benefits, the product benefits and the bells and whistles that your product or service does is the easy bit. It's the relationship that is the key thing. And over three decades of working overseas, it's absolutely the case in my world.

in my view.

Paul Mills (10:16.374)
I think you're absolutely right. I don't think there's much more I can add to that. I think you've pretty much covered all the important points there. I think one thing that many businesses in the UK do badly is market research. I think just generally market research on a product in the UK, we're quite bad at that. The market research has to be amplified several times more if you're to go to an overseas, know, looking to export overseas. And I think with

with remote working that there is no excuse to put one of your employees in another country for a few weeks, a few months, work remotely, get to everything that you've just mentioned there about, you know, embedding yourself in that local market, understanding who the movers or shakers are, who's the safest bet to be a potential distributor, all that good stuff, and picking up on the cultural nuances of that market as well. know, likes, preferences, things you can't do.

Rob Nicholls (11:09.582)
You're actually right. I think your point is well taken. There's no excuse with the ability using AI to develop a research report on a market, a country, a product, a distributor. It's really very, very, I mean, you could literally do it on the aircraft flying to Dubai, generate half a dozen research reports by product, by region, by customer, know, do the due diligence on the partners you're looking at.

There's no excuse. literally, I know founders that will literally fly to California. They'll live in San Diego or San Francisco for six weeks in an Airbnb and they'll do their due diligence. They'll find the right people to talk to. And your point is well taken. There's no excuse. It's easy to do. You just need to get off your backside and go to Dubai, do the due diligence, meet people.

build a presence, build a personal brand, make sure that people know you're out there as well. I have one person I deal with, he's an FX broker out of London, took himself off to Dubai for four weeks. And now he's really quite well connected in Dubai. He's got a number of clients in Dubai. Well, then that starts resonating with other Emirates in the region. So he's picking up clients in Qatar and Bahrain.

That's through just getting off your backside and going out there. I've got another client who's in the special effects world. And next week, I think is South by Southwest in Austin, Texas. He went out to that, spent a couple of weeks out in Austin, Texas. And already now we've probably, we've actually got a distribution point in Texas, big market, big opportunity. And it was leveraged, actually in that case, it was leveraged through

an innovate UK extension for an offer to go out and and write on that and there's a lot of stuff that is going on innovate UK do a lot of these g-bits which are hosted groups of individuals whether it's a sector specific maybe semiconductors or or AI or Medtech and they'll go out as a group of eight ten twelve people hosted and they'll facilitate introductions into market so

Rob Nicholls (13:27.328)
I would encourage people to look at those sorts of opportunities because going out on your own can be a little bit tricky for some people. But if you're a founder, you've got to be able to get willing to get out there. But there are ways to go out with a group of people and some people might find that beneficial. So the G bits through Innovate UK are very worthwhile. They'll go out to places like Germany, Sweden, Singapore, India on industry or topic specific groups.

And that's a good way as an entry point to a market, but pick one or two markets. Don't say, I'm gonna go to the US. That's not a strategy. Go to California, go to Texas, go to Dubai, pick a market and make an effort on that and get on the ground. That's my message, if you will.

Paul Mills (14:15.885)
I think another thing that might be overlooked and I think that's all well and good. think the other thing to consider is the digital infrastructure that has to be localized as well. So depending on whether it's a product or service is, you know,

digital accessibility in those new regions. So if for example, you're exporting to China, WeChat might be a viable platform for your business to be on. If it's in India, I think it's UPI, know, Klarna in parts of Europe. And I think that's another thing you need to look at. How do the buyers or the potential buyers of your products, how do they buy the products? What platforms are they using? What systems, processes, techniques are they using? Because you need to adapt your digital, your tech strategy accordingly.

Rob Nicholls (14:59.148)
Now you're see you're right. You're see you're right.

Paul Mills (15:01.775)
I want to move on, Rob, to the next chapter, I guess, in this episode, which is building a global brand and maintaining consistency while appealing to an even more diverse audience. Both you and I know, Rob, having a strong global brand, helps businesses expand into those new markets, win credibility, win trust. But maintaining brands is more difficult when you're going into multiple new markets.

So I guess from your CFO head, I'll start a bit again. So Rob, from your CFO perspective, many CFOs are focused on the ROI of brand building activities, especially when expanding internationally. So how do you evaluate the financial impact of brand consistency, I guess nationally or internationally versus local adaptations? And what role does brand play in international growth?

Rob Nicholls (16:01.806)
So I think brand is critical. It's probably an undervalued asset because it's an intangible. I, as a CFO, I'm thinking longer term. I'm not thinking short term. And I think that's a weakness that many backward viewing CFOs or even management teams are guilty of is that they'll expect a brand to have a short term impact. You know, take your product, they should love my product. The sales should be generated

relatively quickly, know, in a matter of months or, you know, at least a couple of quarters. I think that's a little bit foolish, to be honest, you know, a brand does take time to resonate in a new market. You know, I work with a product that have been around dozens of years, but it was new to the market. And so it takes time for people to familiarize with the benefits of your product or service. And so you have to take a long term perspective on this. have to take

a multiple quarter, likely multiple year perspective on this. You cannot expect a product or service to resonate quickly in a matter of weeks, let alone months. if you will. It will take time. And I think that's, know, as business people, we tend to want an impact. want the product is there, it's on the ground, it's in the marketplace. We want to see traction. And I think that we're often guilty of

of falling into that trap of expecting that there'll be resonance. It took me a few weeks for my digital products on my Stan Store to generate inquiries. And I was like sitting there thinking, well, it's not working. But equally, you've to be very careful not to what I call negotiate with yourself. So if a product isn't gaining traction in the marketplace in a short term period,

I would be very cognizant not to start thinking, we need to lower our price or we need to spend more on points of presence or marketing presence or Google ads or whatever the mechanism for short term boosting visibility is. I'm a big believer that you shouldn't compete with yourself. So don't start dropping your pricing by 10 % or 20 % just to get traction in the marketplace. Hold your guns.

Rob Nicholls (18:22.348)
build your resonance, build your brand presence in that marketplace, make sure you're doing all the right things, talking to the right people, whether that today might be an influencer in country. I was talking to someone recently there, she's got her product into the hands of, what do call that? a soap opera person who is now the brand image, if you will, of that product. if you will.

And that took a little bit of time, but that actually was an inflection point. And you will see an inflection point when your product gains resonance and traction in the marketplace. It just won't necessarily happen tomorrow. And I'm very cognizant that a lot of businesses will start saying, well, we need to start offering 20 % off our 495 offer just to get resonance. Well, then you're just competing with yourself and it's a race to the bottom. I would suggest

playing the long game on this as well. And I would encourage marketers and finance people and CEOs to build for the long term, if you will. You should be thinking three to five years, how is my product resonating in the market? Is my brand doing the right thing? Do I need to invest in the brand? And in most cases, that's probably the case. You do need to invest in the brand. However, that is done.

Paul Mills (19:45.335)
And I think, you know, To answer that question, how is it done? One strategy might be creating a sub-brand to support market penetration. know, certainly the parent brands, you The UK brand may not resonate particularly well in a different location internationally. know, Procter & Gamble are very famous for creating sub-brands. It's the same product,

Rob Nicholls (19:58.702)
Right.

Paul Mills (20:06.891)
it's just called something different in different places. And that takes quite a bit of time and effort and energy to make happen. And so that needs to be certainly on your radar in terms of a potential tactic to enter a market.

Rob Nicholls (20:20.878)
I think that's a great point as well. And something said to me recently again, she said she'd wish she had done exactly that three years earlier, taken her product, which was a very high end product, relatively high cost ingredients in the product, and she wished she'd stripped it down and created two or three at a much, much lower price point. That's difficult to do down the line. But if you can build a lower cost entry product that's maybe 50 % of the price,

And I did the same with I was selling two-way radios into markets in the Middle East and Africa. And we developed a sub-brand that was about 50 to 60 % of the price, but used basically exactly the same components. It's just the Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura company. You just rebrand it as a lower cost alternative and leverage off that in terms of cost.

It's not rocket science. I think that's a great way to do it. And a lot of businesses should do that. you know, pare back the product, take out the high cost components or ingredients in the case of my client. It's not rocket science and it should be one of the first things you should consider, I think.

Paul Mills (21:40.333)
Absolutely. I think on that, another tactic might be looking at the value proposition. Look at the brand's core promise. It may need reframing, particularly due to local economic conditions, customer expectations, even regulatory frameworks. I think Certainly look at what your value proposition is, Just like you developed it from day one, does it fit the UK market? What is the product market fit in the US, in Dubai, in China, in Southeast Asia Pacific?

Just tweaking a few words might be all that's needed or creating a sub-brand entirely.

Rob Nicholls (22:16.204)
The great thing about business is, it's always changing. Change is a constant. the marketplace, the environment, mean, in the global economy in the last 30, 60, 90 days, things have changed at an ordinate amount and go back two, three years, it's changed an ordinate amount as well. So you've got to be fleet of foot. You've got to adapt. You've got to adapt your pricing, your brand strategy, your ingredients, how you go to market. And I think that the businesses and the products that do adapt

to the environment you're in, clients are gonna get a little bit more, they're more price sensitive, if you will, today. And that's the case in most markets. In some markets, they're absolutely not price sensitive. You can increase your prices in certain markets by 10, 15, 20%, and it makes absolutely no difference to the volume of product you're selling or services you're selling, because they're just simply not price-elastic.

But you go to places like the UK and North America, people are very, very price elastic. So if you do put your price up, there are some exceptions to that. One of the ones I use oftentimes is a fast casual dining train in the US called Chipotle. They've got about 30 stores in the UK. They put eight price increases through last in 2024. Absolutely no impact in terms of volume.

That's brand that has resonance where you can take pricing eight times in a year without losing any volume. Now, not many businesses can do that. The ones that can have built a strong brand.

Paul Mills (23:56.121)
You mentioned price elasticity there. think It's certainly one of the big considerations when deciding whether or not to go international is looking at the market entry barriers that you might have to face. And every new market, it presents its own set of challenges. There'll be regulatory hurdles, there'll be competitive landscape pressures, there'll be customer trust. Do we trust this new brand coming into the market? All of these things can slow down your expansion plans.

So marketing can certainly play a part, a critical role in reducing some of those barriers by creating the brand awareness, establishing credibility, creating demand. So Rob, you've been there, you've done it, you've worn the t-shirt. What are the biggest financial risks businesses face when expanding into new international markets? And how can marketing help mitigate some of these risks and accelerate a company's ability to generate revenue in those new regions?

Rob Nicholls (24:53.902)
So think one of the things we talked about earlier was about research, understanding the market you're entering. And I spend a lot of time in what's called the developing markets, if you will, places like Saudi, Dubai, Egypt, Turkey, South Africa. And they have a different perspective of price. Prices are relatively, it's Selling a product into Africa at the same price as you're selling it into the UK is not really going to work. So you need to clearly adapt.

to the market environment. But you need to understand what's going on. You need to do market research. And I think that's one thing that is sorely lacking today in the marketing world is people who understand that you have to do research and it's just not happening. People are just literally wading in, knee-deep, thinking it's the same market. You can do the same pricing, the same distribution strategy internationally that you can do in Western Europe or the UK.

And it's just not the case. And you need to recognize through research, what other people do. I'm not a big proponent of looking at what your competitors are doing because your product is largely likely relatively unique and has certain attributes to it. So I'm not a big believer in, you need to understand what your competitors are doing in these markets. But I'm a big believer in looking at the value proposition of your product, what it's worth to the client.

And aligning with that, doing your research in the market. A lot of businesses these days will just go into a market and just cut their prices by 30 % and thinking their product is going to resonate. Well, that's just going to destroy your margins. You're to spend the next five years trying to get back your margin. And one of the things that I hold very dear is the margins in my business do not go down. The margins in my business is

only increase over time. all of my businesses, they'll have targets for gross margins. And if they're 35, we need to have a gross margin target of 45 in a period of time. That's not going to happen next quarter. But the one of the best ways to protect and expand margins, one of the levers we'll use is price. Well, I'm not going to compete with myself just to gain market share in Saudi or China or Singapore.

Rob Nicholls (27:17.878)
is to drop my price by 20 % because it will destroy my margins. And that's not a long term way to build value in the business. it's a short term, it's a mistake, but it will also cost the brand in terms of longevity.

Paul Mills (27:35.151)
Absolutely. think it, it's not just price to consider as well. Yes, it's a very critical component of the marketing mix to flex, but I think you have to be cognizant that different regions require different entry strategies. anyway. for example, North America, it's a big place America. It's highly competitive. There's a strong emphasis on brand differentiation and digital first engagement. know, Americans are leading the way with digital. So if your brand, if you haven't got a differentiated

brand, you're going to struggle. And if you're not digital first prepared, you're going to really struggle. I think with Europe, you know, the challenge you've got is you've got lots of countries in Europe in a very small compact piece of land. So unlike America, which is a big bit of land, everyone speaks the same language pretty much. In Europe, you've got to navigate, you know, fragmented regulatory bodies, you've got to navigate language barriers, and you've got diverse customer preferences as well. So you need to consider that.

It's completely different when going to Asia. In Asia, it's all about relationship driven markets. Trust and partnership building is essential, and especially adapting to the local preferences and needs is crucial. And you mentioned earlier, Rob, the Middle East and Africa, massive continent, distribution challenges are the big thing you're going to face there.

And so making partnerships in local regions with local alliances, that's essential for distribution. I don't know if you've got anything else to add to that.

Rob Nicholls (29:03.462)
Yeah, I think this is a really good point. lot of businesses do treat, you know, lot of businesses are looking away from Europe currently and looking at newer markets. The important thing I think is, is not to treat them all the same. The US is not one large country. It's about 50 different markets, know, selling into Washington state as opposed to Florida, looking at California to Massachusetts. They're completely different. They're completely different. They have local

different local state requirements, different licensing, different product requirements. They are literally separate countries in just the same way that South Africa is a different country from Egypt and Singapore is a different country from China. You have to go in and understand those local markets, those local preferences, those local historical norms, those local products that are resonating and develop marketing strategies, pricing strategies, distribution strategies.

for that market. And in that way, you cannot go with 15 or 20 markets, you have to pick your poison, pick one or two states, pick one or two countries, know, pick a market for me in the Middle East Africa, I picked three key markets and that was Turkey, Egypt and South Africa. It just so happens those were large geographical markets.

but that was what resonated with the product we were selling into those markets. I talked to lot of potential clients and clients that are moving into North America and they always want to go to New York or Florida, but you have to pick the right market for your product. And in one case, I was working with a very bespoke, how do I say?

They were basically holders for electronic devices that attached to things like boats. And the right market for them to enter was Connecticut. It wasn't Florida. It wasn't California. It certainly wasn't Texas. Obviously, there's certain markets you need to go to, but you need to pick the right market. And don't always pick the biggest market. Pick the right market that is right for your product or service. And therefore, you need to do the research on that because

Rob Nicholls (31:20.75)
Otherwise, can spend an inordinate amount of time and an inordinate amount of money finding out that that wasn't the right market for us, or that wasn't the right distributor, that wasn't the right strategic alliance. So do your research, get on the ground, find what other people are doing. Don't copy them, do what you need to do, but pick your market and pick your pricing point.

Paul Mills (31:41.839)
I think that's probably a good point to close on. think the key message there is do your research and do it well. Don't assume you know the market, get out there, live it, breathe it, and be prepared to change your decision. really. like you said, if Connecticut, if you've got your heart set on being in New York, but Connecticut's better, go to Connecticut.

Rob Nicholls (32:03.438)
Absolutely.

Paul Mills (32:04.439)
So if you've been watching or listening to this episode, I hope you found value from the discussion. In the next episode, Rob and I will be discussing how to align sales and marketing for revenue growth. So stay tuned for that one. Rob, thank you again for giving up your time to share your perspectives. I've really enjoyed the show and look forward to the next episode. Enjoy the golf.

Rob Nicholls (32:21.902)
Good to see you, Paul. Take care, cheers.


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Paul Mills

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