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Indiewood
A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Indiewood
Creative Career Transitions and Overcoming Limitations: JJ Hawkins on True Representation
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Join us as we chat with writer, producer, and TV actor JJ Hawkins, as we learn how to navigate a career in television, overcome career obstacles, and share our adventures creating the web series "Stupid Cupid" in the bustling streets of New York City.
We spotlight JJ's journey as a trans actor moving from humble theater beginnings to breaking barriers with a role in CBS's "The Red Line." Hear firsthand about the challenges and breakthroughs that come with staying true to one's identity in an industry that’s not always kind to authenticity. JJ’s story is more than just a career narrative; it’s a powerful reminder of how embracing who you are can lead to opportunities that are as groundbreaking as they are rewarding.
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A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
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IG: @indiewoodpod
YT: Cinematography for Actors
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Journey of Indie Filmmakers
Speaker 1Welcome back to the IndieWood podcast, a podcast about independent film and the many hats filmmakers have to wear in order to get those films made. Here we talk about the journeys of creatives who wear multiple hats, who are multi-hyphenate, who dip their toe into different disciplines in order to really kind of get their creative creativity on film, on digital, onto the big screen, onto the little screen. All the screens, yeah, all screens, all sorts of screens. We don't judge, no, no judgment here. This is the first episode of 2025, of the first series of 2025. And with me I have a spectacular, wonderful guest, an old friend, colleague, jj.
Speaker 2Hawkins Wow, hear that Spectacular, I receive it.
Speaker 1Hello, yaro. Hello, we have known each other for quite some time Years. I don't think we've ever like sat down and had a one-on-one.
Speaker 2And never on a pastel couch.
Speaker 1No, or recorded for the world to hear. Right, jj, you are an actor, right, producer, right and writer, and we met on a project that I've talked about endlessly and referenced endlessly, because it's this weird amalgamation of multi-hyphenates and different hats.
Speaker 2Yeah, bring it up again.
Speaker 1we want to hear it, stupid Cupid which was a web series that we shot. My wife and I shot in New York, and you were one of the main characters.
Speaker 2Yes, I was.
Speaker 1So we shot for six days and we had a cast of one, two, three, four, five that sounds right Five plus like another five just of supporting characters.
Speaker 2Don't forget the surprise day in LA too.
Speaker 1Yeah, we had some pickups in LA, but thankfully it was just you and Sarah.
Speaker 2Sign up. I was lucky.
Speaker 1And then we shot in like five different locations in New York for like $25,000. How? He pulled that off how he pulled that off for that much money, I have no idea, and so that was, I think, the start of a wonderful friendship yes, I get to look back with new eyes to that, because I wasn't attuned to any of that. Yeah, I was just like here I am, if you want to ask me about my tour.
Speaker 1Yeah, if you want to ask me about the trials and tribulations of stupid Cupid in New York, please, because you were there for everything, yeah, but you guys had a good time oh we had a blast Good we just in rooms we were bonding. We got invited to joanna's wedding because we got so close after that filming I heard that, yeah, I had a mental breakdown, great day you know you win, some you lose some, I think. I think, in the end, though, it wasn't like a mental breakdown, it was a like exhaustion breakdown it was a, is a an emotional gasp of like relief and creative growth.
Speaker 1I think.
Speaker 2Cause at the end of it.
Speaker 1I, we, we, we spent six days just shooting nonstop. I think we were doing like eight to 10 hour days, but then Sarah and I would go home and prep the next day so we were like sleeping five, six hours, going to bed at one, waking up at five or six and doing it again and I think day three.
Speaker 1We're like it's fine. We were just, we're almost there. We can, we can figure it out. And for those just kind of tuning in um the web series we wrote, we co-wrote, sarah and I, my wife and I. She started it and she produced it and I directed it and I edited it, edited it, edited it, did it, did the post-production on it.
Speaker 2Post-production and what's crazy about even you saying that it's your wife is? I don't know if you remember, but our little pitch, little sizzle day, first day of filming, y'all had just started dating. Yeah yeah, she like brought you around. We were like who's this guy?
Speaker 1He's the grip, he's the boyfriend who's helping out in the background. Oh, fast forward.
Speaker 2Oh, my wife.
Speaker 1Oh, my wife, oh, my wife and I recreated that so beautiful. Yeah, I feel like stupid cupid has been. Uh, this kind of background story to our, I bet in my life I yeah, I really resonate.
Speaker 2I mean also fast forward to me and my partner making a film together. Talk about make or break. Some people make babies, others make films. You know what? I mean, those are babies, that they're babies, yeah, and it is like, wow, we're doing this, babe, we're in. Birthing them is painful. Yeah, everybody has a womb. Everybody births. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1Yeah, a creative womb. Yeah, yeah, a creative womb. I want to hear your side of the story, because how did you so as an actor? When did you start kind of being on stage in front of the camera?
Speaker 2Because I kind of being on stage in front of the camera because I know you're from utah. No, I'm not from utah. Not from utah. Many people think this. This is something that I need to clarify right now. Let me throw up before I say that no offense to the land, but offense to the place. Um, I grew up. I'm hurt. Uh, I am happily from the san francisco bay area and I think that is the only thing that kept me like sane because, I was raised in a very devout Mormon household, for better and for worse, but I wasn't in like the Utah culture.
Speaker 1The mothership Very different yeah.
Speaker 2But I did go to college there, that's right as every good little. Mormon girl, does you go to BYU? And so I did spend my four years of penance there and you made your dues and yeah whenever I say that I'm, you know, was raised mormon. I went to byu, people assume I'm from utah, and that makes perfect sense. I totally understand and you know, let's just set the record straight four years there. But I do have extended family there, even though I am like third generation, even from the Bay Area anyway.
Speaker 1So did you start arts at BYU or did you finish BYU and then go like I'm done? I'm just moving to New York or LA, you know a phase of that did happen with theater so.
Speaker 2I started theater in high school very classic story but then in college I did more theater and I was like basically, fuck this, I have been wrung dry of the theater.
Authenticity and Trans Representation in Hollywood
Speaker 2And I was like I'm moving out of Utah as quickly as I possibly can and I wanted to go to New York or LA. Ended up going to LA, closer to home and because I wanted to do film. So I was very much like clean slate, no more theater. I'm a film boy now and I had done just a little bit of film at the end of college but funnily enough I ended up moving to LA and the first thing I did was a piece of theater.
Speaker 2Because, you know what? That's just like what happens, but it's actually an amazing story of how that little like 99 seat theater black box in Atwater Village led me to this person, who led me to this person that led me to this thing, that literally you can draw a direct line from that box to my first CBS show. Okay, cbs, cbs, cbs, cbs show which is so cool.
Speaker 1I think that's like cool People should hear that you know, it's amazing how all the work you do really does build up to the great successes of the pivotal moments in her career in unforeseeable ways, in ways you could never predict and for, uh, the cbs show, that was all rise uh no, my first cbs show was the red line.
Speaker 2A little unknown show kind of got buried. I think it was a little too liberal okay for cbs yeah, liberal for cbs.
Speaker 1Yeah, it was like about this?
Speaker 2first of all this this doctor who ends up getting shot because he's black and he's married to a man and so all even that, that's like the inciting incident and all those things cbs show yeah um, and so you're following his now widowed widow word um husband and their daughter like navigate the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2And it was like, yeah, they were adding in all this like diversity and I played this non-binary character who was like the first out non-binary character on national television cbs show and then they ended up even showing them in two episode chunks. Have you ever heard of that? It was like every monday night there'll be two episodes back to back so that they could get through it in four weeks. And then they like canceled it and they just they buried it.
Speaker 1It was like oh, y'all are doing a lot of liberal stuff um.
Speaker 2I filmed it in 2018, so it came out in 2019. Okay, wow, that is really wild it is pretty wild I mean it's out there now.
Speaker 1You know I mean you can't bear, that I think someone's got it torrented that's the truth.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's not my mom you know.
Speaker 1so just to kind of give folks perspective on a career of theater in byu theater in in los Los Angeles to a network show. What did that look like for you? And I really just want to get that perspective because I think everybody's journey is different, but I think the common thread is always no work that you do is a waste of time.
Speaker 2I completely agree with that sentiment. No work you do is a waste of time. But for me in particular at that time and where I was in my life and where society, the industry was, all of that, it was a lot of things coming together, as I think everything does. It's like every single lane. It's like where are you at personally, where is the world at around you? How much do those inform each other to be where, where you are in that present moment? So I think it was a lot of this. When I came to LA, I, I was in at BYU and everyone assumed I was a girl. I was like identifying that way even at that time, and so I moved to LA and I was like enough of this, it's time to let everybody know I'm actually a boy and so transitioning, coming out as an actor, is a big thing. I mean, it's already a big thing.
Speaker 2It's not like that's ever easy, but when you're like marketing yourself, yeah you're like this I had signed with an agency being like, yeah, I'm like a butch lesbian.
Speaker 1And then it was like actually just to clarify this was in Los Angeles. This is in Los Angeles, okay, so you were already here putting down roots and then you're like no, no, there's this other transition that needs to happen. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2So kind down roots, and then you're like no, no, there's this other transition that needs to happen. Yes, exactly, so kind of getting my feet under me, and then I was like actually I'm a trans boy, so sorry about that. Um, and so it's like then it's the whole like medical transitioning which takes so long and then you're like socially transitioning, like call me this name etc etc. Etc. It's really difficult, let alone that whole time, the whole thing, the that actors face, which is like marketing yourself.
Speaker 1You're like.
Speaker 2I want people to know exactly this little box that I'm in so that they know where to cast me. But when you're transitioning, that box is changing like every other week.
Speaker 1It's like I don't know what.
Speaker 2I look like today?
Speaker 2What do you think I look like today?
Speaker 2And so it was already a confusing time, and trans representation in media was very new it still is, but it was like even more so and so it was kind of a confluence of things, a lot of things coming together. It was like me finally being like this is me and I think a lot of my my like life lesson is like authenticity will always sell, and so, no matter where that is or what that is, and it's just like here I am, and it was also with the burgeoning like oh, we want to have some trans representation in the world, and so I think that's really what got my name passed through a lot of hands. So it's like even in this small 99 seat theater, I'm playing this trans character who is this teen boy who hasn't come out yet, hasn't started, and it was kind of like exactly where I was in my own transition and so it was like yeah exactly you and those things kind of align, I think, when you are your authentic self, and then it's like, oh, did you hear?
Speaker 2there's this trans boy who's doing this thing, and it's like I specifically need that for this one thing I'm doing. And then it's like that leads to another and leads to another and because, especially you know, this was now I don't know what time is it seven, eight years ago, um, it was like this was really.
Speaker 2I mean, the list of us who were like out was exceptionally small yeah, and so you know again these names kind of being pushed from hand to hand, ending up on someone so-and-so's desk, that like then the CBS show is like we have this non-binary character and we're out of our league. We're trying to cast that Right so that ends up, and, of course, then again it's everything coming together. It's also you being like I deserve this, I, I'm capable of this, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah.
Speaker 1Did that answer your question? It did I. I you know because, uh, the more you explained, the the journey. It made me think about a lot of different things that I've kind of used as anchors in my life, in my creative pursuits as well. And the last thing you said, where, like you know, you were um, oh my god, I forgot what the words you used specifically, but it was like why me, why you know?
Speaker 1like, how like how can I be in this position? You know, I think and it's also just an issue of self-confidence that always every creative experiences, but then I forget what it, um it was.
Speaker 1It was for how to get away with murder and it was oh, what's her name? The actress. I keep forgetting her name, viola davis. Thank you so much, viola davis, you're so welcome. Read her book. She was talking about how she got hired for the show and how she didn't feel comfortable doing all these like scenes where she was seen as an ingenue right and then she goes why not me, right?
Speaker 2I was like right yeah, because now how to?
Speaker 1get away with murder is is how to get away with murder.
Speaker 2I mean, if you want to be inspired, literally learn everything you can from viola davis. I swear to god she is inspiring well.
Speaker 1So, as an actor, you and I don't want to say you know, luck is, opportunity means talent. So I don't want to say you were lucky but, like you had an incredible opportunity because you were just in this pocket of this industry needing trans actors, needing trans representation, and then you were prepared, you were got the talent, you were doing theater, you were showing people what you could do and that kind of came together. And I guess you know, if we want to use that definition of luck, that was the lucky break. But, as an actor, still transitioning, still finding your footing yourself, developing your career, then getting that show, how did you continue on that momentum? How did you continue building on your career?
Speaker 2I mean that's a great question, and I also kind of want to talk about this luck idea because it comes up a lot in our industry and probably in every industry this is just my industry there's almost like a shying away from it.
Speaker 2It's like people don't want to be like it wasn't just luck I did all this, or not even just luck. People are like there was no luck involved. I did this, and it's like I don't know what I mean and maybe this is just a very non-binary way of thinking, but, like, both are true. Every all of this is true and I think to to your point of like what defines luck. It's like, yeah, is it just these things? I mean, I think what we do is put ourselves into luck's way and if you have the patience to wait out luck hitting you, I mean cause I think you can also argue like, how many times has luck hit someone and they didn't even notice?
Speaker 2And so I think it's also like giving kind of respect to like this ethereal thing that we can't touch, like luck or something hitting me.
Navigating Career Setbacks and Growth
Speaker 2That's being like, wow, thank you so much that that happened. But also recognizing like but I up and I Carried it through and I recognized it as that, and I think those things really like help each other to be like yes, I worked hard and something else worked out there for me too, and I think Accepting both of those things is like not at odds with each other and I think it's actually like beautiful. So, going from that, like that show and on, I was just like I I think there's a lot to be said about mindset really because before the show I pictured myself there. Well before you know, I was like I'm absolutely capable, I'm absolutely on that level, on that tier, whatever that is, and I just felt myself like even in my, in my day job, which was as a substitute teacher when I first moved here yeah, we could talk all about that. I literally was playing high school students on tv meanwhile substituting high school high school students very funny I looked that's interesting how often like I would be like okay, kids sit down.
Speaker 2And the students would be like why is this senior like taking?
Speaker 1role. But who's tre? No, literally, whose ta is this?
Speaker 2I'm like I'm your 21 year old adult, thank you. But uh, going from, yeah, sitting in my day job and being like I could be at the Oscars tomorrow, not like literally, that that would make sense, but that like I felt that I belonged, I was like I could do that I would be right there with them.
Speaker 2And what difference do those people have than me? Like none. So it's kind of funny to look back and see that I was thinking that way because I wasn't like doing an exercise, I wasn't like I could, just I wasn't visualizing on purpose, that was just kind of like my, my energy. I was just kind of like on that frequency and.
Speaker 2I think things kind of like align with that. I think I think you know this thing we call luck is kind of listening to that. And so once I got the, the first cbs job, I was, of course, like ecstatic. I was like shaking, I was so happy, but also I was like exactly I was like this is right where I belong.
Speaker 1Thanks for finally opening the door for me.
Speaker 2I've been knocking for hours but you know, there's a quiet way to do that. It was not at all feeling like that didn't need to be for anybody else, it was just me being like this fits, yeah, and feeling that kind of softness and kind of like, oh, it's a, it's a tender type of love you can give yourself when you like, think you're worthy of something, and then it comes.
Speaker 1You're like oh, we knew that and it's like, yeah, it's a really special experience you can have with yourself.
Speaker 2So I feel like I just kind of rode that for a while and I was. I then got known by more and more people. I mean, that's how everything is in this industry. You just kind of one step leads to the next, One person leads to the next person in an unforeseeable type of like road and it's definitely not linear in any capacity.
Speaker 2We'll get to that there was some linear moments for me, and I would say the first CBS show started a linear kind of chapter where I was just kind of then the next job, then the next job, then the next job, and most of them were also on CBS, because that was cool, I just, I guess I just made friends there. But then I started on a Cw show as well and I feel like that was, that was kind of, I guess, the end of that chapter. So it it just. You know, that would kind of be a montage if we were looking at. My life was just like those couple years of just like booking and going on this show and going on this show and traveling and being like la-di-da-di-da, the kind of like um magic that people really like fantasize about.
Speaker 2I would totally categorize those couple years as and then COVID hit yeah, then everything stopped, Lord. Everything stopped, man. What a surreal thing.
Speaker 1Thinking so for those at home. We're recording this the week after the intense palisades and pasadena, or, as they're calling it, the eden fires have hit los angeles and, uh, it's still kind of we're still recovering.
Speaker 2In week two they are still active. Yeah, they're still there.
Speaker 1Yeah, in this, but it feels like a very condensed version of covid, because the city shut down.
Speaker 2Exactly what I've been saying and it felt like, I mean, you literally had to be inside, shut the windows. It felt like lockdown. Not to mention there were let's try to remember, throw ourselves back in the good old year of 2020. There were also fires then, that was crazy.
Speaker 2It was like on top of lockdown, like that summer. I remember the 4th of July that summer being like, huh, the city's in flames on top of the world and it was like it's yeah. It's honestly crazy to look at life since then, because it was like, yeah, covid been there, know her. And then everyone was like, but like, as soon as, as soon as this, this gets under wraps, like things are, the floodgates are gonna open, industry strikes two strikes, yeah, multiple strikes just like back to back and and like that, and then they're like stay alive till 25.
Speaker 2That's what they said and in 2025 the city catches fire literally.
Speaker 1It was like 2025 wildfires so how did I guess the question would be having this momentum in your career and something that I've also had, like momentum that then just gets, not just stopped, but like stomped on and cut like there's no recovery.
Speaker 2Yes, we've talked about this. Yeah, how?
Speaker 1do you? How did you specifically recover from that and kind of find the emotional energy to continue, because it's hard?
Speaker 2dude, it's more than hard, it's soul-wracking. Yeah, because especially you know the, the youthful aspect, the I mean there is some naivete attached to. I was like this is what I foresaw and then I got it yeah so now it's just going to continue like this until the rest of time and until I have a great life.
Speaker 1You know, speaking, speaking on that. Do you feel like the opposite? Sometimes is true where you're like oh. No, I caused the pandemic, I caused the fire by like oh absolutely.
Speaker 2Yeah, you have to go through that ringer too, because then you're like, wow, I do have power over my life and then, like, disaster strikes and you're like I'm a monster. I create a disaster it is my fault?
Speaker 2yeah, of course, and and that's where you, I think the battle of my life since then was trying to find this line of like how much control do we really have? What control do I have? Where is that line? I want to find it and I want to do everything I can up until that line, and then stop it, yeah, and then stop there and start praying or, you know, mantraing. Whatever I need to do to appease the other side.
Speaker 2Right, like you tell me, and it's and and it's still like, it's still a form of control, and I think life is supposed to teach you like let go get on the ride, because if life does go the way that you want it to that you think you want it to, my belief is that that's ultimately much worse than what life has planned for you.
Speaker 2And what may seem at first as an obstacle ends up being the route, the way to a new life before an unforeseeable right that you couldn't have imagined, and I think that's what the multi-hyphenate journey has been for me. Absolutely. I never in a million years would have thought that I would have started doing anything but acting. I was an actor, I was a performer, I was like that's what I do has been for me absolutely I never in a million years would have thought that I would have started doing anything but acting I was an actor I was a performer, I was like that's what I do, that's what I love you tell me what to say.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, exactly like. Wait a minute, I can write this down.
Speaker 2Do it, and I'm gonna bring a fully fledged human to it and I'm gonna bring all that. I've gone through and I'm just. I just want a camera in my face. I just want people to look at my, look at me, look me in the eye. You know I just that's all I wanted. And the thought of doing anything else I thought was like a slander to being an actor.
Speaker 1You know what I mean. Yeah, like you're not good enough to do the one thing, so you have to do everything else.
Speaker 2Oh, you're like not good enough, oh, you couldn't do it.
Speaker 1But now, that's the baseline.
Speaker 2Now you have to do multiple things in order to do anything in order to do anything. Yeah, and again one of those unforeseeables. I could not have foreseen that emotion or the energy of creating your own work it is. You can't find that as an actor. It is its own, untouchable, reserved, like beautiful little piece of this world, and it's like I never would have even attempted to do that if life hadn't thrust me in there, and so it is like, of course I had to go through, like, why me, of course, gotta pity yourself.
Speaker 1Why did I do this? You gotta dabble. Why did I cause a pandemic?
Speaker 2and then, after that, I was like, and after much time passed, and like, life gave me things that I couldn't have foreseen, I was like oh, I grew as a person Like I became someone that I really like. And in a way, I would have never pushed myself to become, and that's something really cool. And, at the very least, what a multi-hyphenate gives you is more respect for the things you weren't doing before.
Speaker 1You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2As an actor we were just talking about Stupid Cupid I was like oh, were y'all stressed? We were having a great time, we showed up, we were hanging out?
Speaker 1Did it ever feel like seeing it from your perspective, did it ever feel like everybody on the other side was just not having a good time or freaking out?
Speaker 2You know, I felt that not in any strong way. It's like I could tell, because I like, I mean, I was friends with you guys that you were immensely stressed but, like almost as an actor, you kind of recognize that your job is to not add stress.
Speaker 2as an indie actor, in this realm, at least, like I feel that's. Maybe I'm talking about um, codependent tendencies, but I was like I need to bring in the helpful energy, but no, it also didn't feel like any type of work to like be happy I was, so I had such a good time. But sure, I mean you can tell people are stressed, but it's. It's amazing, at least to me, how much I I mean I'm like, yeah, yeah, I understand filmmaking is stressful, like I understand that when I get wrapped, like I just go home and go to sleep and you guys don't, I I see that, yeah, that makes sense but also I still felt from the two of you especially like this, this sort of aliveness.
Speaker 2I mean, there was also like we were living.
Speaker 1Yeah, we were living, I mean there was also like we were living.
Speaker 2Yeah, we were living. I mean, you see it, they're together, they're intimately linked. So yeah, as as an actor, I saw that too, which?
Speaker 1is cool. Well, I'd love to unpack that more and I'd love to hear about your journey with your own creation, with a short film called the golden boys the Golden Boys. So we'll listen to that or not listen to that, we'll talk about that, and let's watch it, yeah.
Speaker 1The next episode is just a watch party. We'll talk about that in the next episode. But just to wrap things up, you know people thinking about their own journeys and their own careers, especially in this time where things are tough. Like, what is the industry? What are we doing? What's the streamer doing to the creative? What are the fires going to do to the industry? Because it's really bad. I'm not going to lie, but I think in the end, it's this idea that you are. Why not you?
Speaker 1Yeah, to bring it back to Miss Davis. Miss or Miss Davis.
Speaker 2That is, I understand, her maiden name, but she is married, okay, so I don't know how that works in that case. Whatever, so we'll bring it back to that quote.
Speaker 1And you know why not? You Do it. Do the thing, be creative, put yourself in a position, emotionally and mentally, where you are not taking care of yourself, where you're being mean to yourself. Oh my God, absolutely. I've been doing the artist's way, the last five months. It's been going great up and down up and down. And I've treated inspiration differently. I'm treating inspiration differently now, where I'm treating it as a solar wind that is just consistently hitting our planet, and all I need to do is reach out and grab it.
Speaker 2But that takes so much discipline. And then when things go wrong, it's not necessarily my fault and all I need to do is reach out and grab it. Oh, I couldn't do that, but that takes so much discipline, yeah.
Letting Go for Luck
Speaker 1And then when things go wrong, it's not necessarily my fault or somehow I'm a bad person or a bad creator, or a bad writer, or like I've caused whatever travesty is happening in the city or in the world. All I have to do is just kind of like ride the wave, you know yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, I completely agree with that assessment. Right, the wave I mean this is kind of how I see it to bring back what we were even talking about, like if, if something is not working, let it go, yeah, and that might, that force might just be luck you know what I mean.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. On that note, did you? Thank you for coming on the pod oh, I thank you. Uh, we'll see you next week you sure will yeah and uh. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you next week. Bye.