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Indiewood
A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Indiewood
Acting, Writing, Directing: Unique Perspective From Actor Wayne T. Carr
Join us for our final episode with with actor, writer, and teacher Wayne T. Carr as he shares valuable lessons from his creative journey. Whether you're an aspiring performer or filmmaker, this episode offers practical advice on maintaining motivation, mastering your craft, and finding success in the entertainment industry.
Wayne discusses the importance of celebrating your achievements rather than dwelling on missed goals, the differences between theater and film directing approaches, and how to effectively communicate with actors. He shares insights from his experience teaching college actors, working on productions like "The Odyssey" at American Repertory Theater, and even his brief encounter with playing Green Lantern in Zack Snyder's Justice League.
0:39 Wayne T. Carr returns
1:31 Setting goals and motivation
2:28 Maintaining creative drive
3:04 The Green Lantern experience
4:22 Making goals grander
5:42 Focusing on successes not failures
7:58 Learning to be a dreamer
9:17 Teaching actors in college
10:25 Learning to relax as an actor
12:07 Directors' communication challenges
14:34 The worst acting note: "Faster"
16:37 Using business to ground performances
19:04 Theater vs. film directing approaches
21:20 Common actor struggles
24:41 Writers and creative structure
27:01 Learning fundamentals before experimenting
28:00 Closing thoughts and upcoming book
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A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
More on:
IG: @indiewoodpod
YT: Cinematography for Actors
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Welcome back to the IndieWood podcast, a podcast about independent film and the many hats filmmakers have to wear in order to get those films made. In this series, I've been talking to an incredible artist, an incredible actor and writer and teacher and father.
Speaker 2:We've been adding multi-hyphenates as we kind of go along.
Speaker 1:He's been an incredible inspiration to my craft and we've worked together before and we're going to end this series with a little bit of education, I think, a little bit of sharing knowledge, because I think we both kind of had enough of it to share. We've done enough for us to figure out some stuff, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Wayne T Carr is with me once again.
Speaker 3:Yes, glad to be here.
Speaker 1:So we've talked about your career ups and downs, we've talked about using your craft for other things and kind of legitimizing your craft. And last episode we talked about doing things on your own or with your friends something small scale and finding different ways to exhibit that, but also treating your exhibition as something different. And then we ended the episode on kind of setting goals for yourselves and meeting those things and kind of what motivates you. And you said something interesting where it was like if you are motivated by that award, the Oscar, the success, use that. But I had an interesting kind of thought where sometimes those goals are really really high and it'll take you a very long time to get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you've taught quite often quite a bit and you've taught a lot of people. And my question for you was going to be like how do you maintain that sense of self-care, self-love and motivation when you have these goals that are so high, self-love and motivation when you have these goals that are so high? And then obviously you should set you know more, more goals closer to kind of where you are, so you can hit them and stay motivated.
Speaker 2:But also what like?
Speaker 1:what are you doing when those moments where you are missing them, those those really high goals, and you start to lose motivation, you start to lose that creative drive?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's different for everyone and I have not lost my creative drive recently and I think the reason why is because I don't allow things to become too precious or I don't allow things to to to linger for too long. I've done that, uh, quite often and it always sets me up for failure.
Speaker 3:So um we were talking about the last episode, about, uh, zack Snyder's Justice League and the potential to be Green Lantern, and I shot the scene with him. And then he goes and he shows it to the studios and the studios goes no, we have. You can't do that. We told you not to introduce any new characters. You can't do that. He calls me and he says Wayne, I'm sorry, they won't allow me to do it. It's really frustrating, but they won't allow me to add that to the thing. That happens all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with big names, yeah, you know, they get into things, they do things, uh, they have opportunities and they go away and then it's like, okay, well, what do you do? And, taking note from some of the people who are on those higher level of whatever, they just keep moving. So, you know, if, if you were one of my students and you were like my goals are really high and it's just, it's going to take me a long time to reach them, and, matter of fact, I had a really high goal and I just didn't quite reach it, I had it set for, you know, this year to happen and I'm halfway there. What are your markers?
Speaker 3:what are your things and and and for you, I might say this is something I wouldn't give this advice to myself. Well, maybe I should, but I would probably say to you try for your next goal, making it grander okay go.
Speaker 1:I thought you were gonna go the opposite way.
Speaker 3:Nope make it huge, bigger than you like. Oh, I want to win the. Oh, okay, make it five times, just see if it. You know it. It's experimentation.
Speaker 1:I see it's playing around with what works for you, okay, that doesn't work for me, dreaming so big that you know whatever no see, I'll tell you what I did, because I had the same thing where I was like by 27, yeah, I want to be here in my career. Yes, right. I hit 27, guess where I was. Where were you not that point?
Speaker 3:were you do you?
Speaker 2:Do you remember?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was attempting, I was doing short films. I was doing a lot of production, doing music videos. I think I interned a little bit too at a production company, which was hard because I was still kind of overcoming a lot of obstacles and hurdles early on in my career, of course, how to, like, you know self-care and you know be disciplined and treat my creativity with grace, and so I was writing stuff for myself. It really bummed me out that at 27, I wasn't where I wanted to be, which was, like you know, working and having sold a script, and I was like I haven't sold a script, I haven't been on a TV show, but you had written scripts. I'd written scripts at the time, yeah, and you were working doing music videos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was doing music videos. I did some shorts, I did a doc. I think too.
Speaker 3:It was so long Did you say you were interning somewhere?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I interned at a company called Voltage Pictures.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so let me stop you right there, and I would say, if you were my student, that that's phenomenal it is, but it's.
Speaker 1:The thing is, I had to go through that. And this is where where like my kind of journey took me is those goals were high and realistic, but I missed them. And then, when I realized, is that my journey? Because now, 10 years later, we're 11 years later, I'm 38, now there's so many things that have happened in such a different direction, but still within this creative bubble that I want to live in, that are incredibly incredible. And I think it's because I started saying yes to things.
Speaker 1:I think I needed to be more conscientious of the things I was being successful at instead of the things that I wasn't being successful at, because that was my crux I was focusing on the things that I was missing. Oh, I missed the target on this, oh, I missed the target on that, not realizing that I was working so hard in achieving all these other amazing things. Yeah, and I got into grad school and then I realized, holy crap, look at all these amazing things that I've done. And I've met a lot of creatives who look at their career, where they are now, and they're like I'm terrible, I shouldn't be doing this, I'm a terrible artist, I'm never going to succeed.
Speaker 1:And then I'm like turn around and look where you came from. There you go yeah, look at what you've been in, look at what you've done, look at what you've achieved. And then they look back and they're holy crap, I'm kind of. I'm kind of cool, yeah. And so when I started looking back and like seeing all the things I've done, I'm like, wow, that was kind of cool, yeah, yeah. And then I started thinking I was cool.
Speaker 1:And now I'm cool, kick rocks, so uh yeah, I love that I think that's an interesting uh perspective, because I I was like set yourself up. I was gonna say, set yourself more goals that are between where you are now and where you want to be. Set more goals, because once you start hitting them as you're inching closer to your bigger goal, uh, when you turn around you're like well, I did all that, yeah. But also the opposite is interesting, because you can set higher goals for yourself and then be more, you can fantasize more, you can have more, you know more ideas about who you are as a creator, what you want to do. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was born a dreamer. I think a lot of my friends are in that category.
Speaker 2:They're dreamers.
Speaker 3:But one of the things that I'm realizing for myself.
Speaker 3:and again, like I told you the other day, like tomorrow it may change, but right now I need to like take that samurai sword and sharpen it on this granite over and over and over again, over and over and over again, and that's all I do until I make the sword as sharp as I need it to be or want it to be, to refine my technique in this one particular thing, not where I'm going to sell the sword. Who's going to none of that is just kind of like I need to focus on this one thing, because tomorrow my goals are going to shift and that's what I know of myself.
Speaker 3:Tomorrow I'm going to desire to have this or do this or do whatever. Today I just need to focus on this thing.
Speaker 1:That's a good segue to kind of the thing I wanted to talk about on this pod, on this episode. When you're teaching actors, what's the most common thing that pops up that they want to know, that they're struggling with Because they're a nugget where they're like this is an obstacle in their career that they have to overcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think most actors that I teach because they're all on the college level they haven't been out into the world yet.
Speaker 3:They just want to be the best. They just want to be the best. And that's cool to want to be the best. That takes time, I guess, and whatever. But I try to help them realize let's make you the best storyteller that you can be, period. Don't compare yourself to anyone else, don't try to whatever. But they want to be the best so that that agent, so that that director, so that you know that writer writes for them and wants to work with them and you know, and they can become big movie stars or whatever, like that's what they want. But they need to learn how to relax. They need to learn how to be chill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they need to learn how to breathe.
Speaker 3:They need to learn. It's not very sexy to like sit down and go hey, you know what Breathe. Take a pause Now, say that thing. How did that make you feel it's boring? When you like dissect it like that, they want to make that award winning speech, but it's a technique and it's really difficult and it's that kind of like that quote. You know what I mean. It's going a long way to get to where you want to go where you want to go.
Speaker 1:I, I like, I like your kind of perspective on that. I think, just to add, when you're always constantly worried about being the best you're missing the greatness that you're achieving now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, um, you're thinking about this thing in the future. You're not in the present, you're not in the moment. You're like I'm going to deliver this great thing later. Well, what about the thing you just did now? We're here in this space, in this moment, in this time, and also, I think what you're alluding to is that they are trying to be the best and so they're pushing. Yeah, and that shows where you can be like, oh, I can't act, and then you're like, oh, let's turn it down, let's see what we can do with craft and with okay, that's interesting. What about for directors? What are directors trying to consistently overcome?
Speaker 3:I think directors are consistently trying to overcome not knowing the language, not knowing the terminology to achieve what they want to achieve with an actor. They know how to talk to the person who's focusing. They know how to talk to the person who's doing lights. They know how to talk to you know everything about building the thing. What's your objective? Is that the right word? I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Motivation. What is your?
Speaker 3:motivation, like just be more angry. You know what I mean. Like that is the hardest part to try to help directors understand that there's a terminology that the actors are being trained with. There are words, there are key phrases, there are techniques that they're learning to try to help them be human on the screen or on stage, and directors, for the most part, are not taught that.
Speaker 1:Like how to give a note to an actor? Yeah, how to give a note to an actor.
Speaker 3:What is going to help that individual get to the place that you want them to get to? How do you communicate that to them in the best, most effective way? Or how do you communicate it in general? Because a lot of directors will say the same thing about different colors of you. Know that they want in a particular thing, but they'll say I want that to be more louder yes, yeah or more this, but it's a little.
Speaker 1:It's more nuanced than that what is the worst note that you've gotten? How?
Speaker 2:about this rephrase, yeah what's the worst?
Speaker 1:note you consistently get that.
Speaker 3:I consistently get as an actor you know what this is, something that happens across the board and it's not just to me. So I'll just say this one Okay, Because it happens to everybody Faster. Yeah, it happens quite often. So if you are a beginning actor and you're doing a co-star, you know you're doing where you just have to deliver some information. You're not the star, your job you know you're doing what well. You just have to deliver some information.
Speaker 2:You're not the star your job is to like throw this information out there and say these things really quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and he went down there and he said the thing. But they don't want you to linger, they don't want you, they want you to say the information and let the star take the pauses and do the looks and do whatever. No, none of the young actors want to do that, right, but that is a note that a lot of us are are going to get and we'll we'll get. What the director doesn't know how to say is why is it so urgent?
Speaker 2:because that actor over there will say it.
Speaker 3:Here's what I need to tell you. I need to tell you to do this thing and do that thing and do that thing why you're doing that? Because what if you can communicate to the actor why it's so urgent, even if it's something as simple like hey, um, this superstar over here, who's the lead of this show, is going to come over here and chat with you and they're going to ask you this question you have to use the bathroom. That's what I want you to play.
Speaker 2:That's just my technique as a director that's what I'm going to, because that actor is going to go okay, great, I have to use the bathroom.
Speaker 3:So I just need to say these lines real quick so I have to go. Okay, great, great, cool, cool. You're going to be so happy as a director because you're gonna be like that's the energy that I was looking for. You just got a creative way of like they can run with it and use that and make it something grander than you thought it would be, because you said you have to use the bathroom. All right, cool, I can work with that. It's better to say that you have to use the bathroom than to say faster, please.
Speaker 1:Something I like doing for some scenes is giving an actor business. Give them something to do with their you know, with their hands as they're doing the line or scene or whatever like a motion, like what's your, what's your business? Yeah, and I think when my wife auditioned for 1923, way back when a couple years ago, she did this thing in the audition where she was hanging clothes to dry and shooing chickens.
Speaker 1:And it was so lived in it, grounded, just like two lines, like what's happening in this lived in moment as we got out of the show. And I think it's something actors can use in auditions and directors can use when communicating with actors, this kind of technique of grounding yourself in the moment, using business. So back to kind of this thing that you were saying, which was directors don't know how to use the language of an actor to give them a note, to really bring that moment to life. How would you suggest they learn those things? Is it like call Wayne and he'll teach?
Speaker 3:you? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I remember the first thing that I did when I got here was Well.
Speaker 1:should they take an acting class too?
Speaker 3:Taking an acting class. I teach at Art Center School of Design and I teach a class called Acting for Directors and they go through a process of learning a monologue, doing some scenes, breaking scenes down, and I'll bring people in actors, maybe, maybe a director to talk to them, to chat with. What techniques do you use, taking them through a scene and saying here's how I, as a theater director, would direct this thing. Now, the thing that's different with a theater director and a director of film and television, we kind of have more time. We rehearse for weeks, right, you have that day on the set.
Speaker 3:I was talking to you about the TV show, the Chicago Mad Thing. Like I was talking to you about the TV show that you know, the Chicago Mad Thing, I remember going to the set and the director was like let's rehearse. And I was like, oh my gosh, we get to rehearse. This is great.
Speaker 3:And so we rehearsed a little bit, and it was just a little bit, but still it was like we got to play, you know, and then the director said a couple of notes. I was like cool, great. And then the next thing we did was we shot you know the scene and did it however many times with whatever notes that were given. I just did the odyssey at the um american repertories theater in cambridge, massachusetts that was like a two month show.
Speaker 1:Right, say it again it was like a two month show oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, that's how long I was there and we did about 44 shows and we rehearsed for five, four weeks and then teched for about a week and then we ran. But during those four weeks we had the director in the room telling us you know, directing us on film and television, you don't have that time right?
Speaker 1:No, well, I mean, it just depends on what kind of set you want to have. Some people, just the way the show is set up, or the film is set up, you don't, you just show up and you're, you're required to kind of have prepared, but then, as you're doing, takes you refine. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes you have conversations with actors as a film director, um, but I think some sets have sets have acting coaches on.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah yeah, I remember doing a guest star on Stuck in the Middle and there was just an acting coach there, primarily for the young kids who were doing it, but I was like that's really cool.
Speaker 1:It's important to bring some of those things from the theater world into film because it gives you so much more freedom to experiment, but also the reassurance that you're gonna do it good or do it right or do however you want, because you have opportunities to communicate. You don't want to burn film to test an actor or director to see if you can communicate. That seems silly. But what I like about theater is this you rehearse for four weeks and then you tech and the director gives notes, but then when the show starts the director's gone. The director's just like I'm going to sit in the back and watch the show, and maybe not even that, maybe I'll just go do another show. And now the show is in the hands of the actors. I think that's a really cool concept where you prep so much and then you just and I think that's what happens, and then I'm going to finish the thought you prep so much and then you give the show to the actors. I think that's what happens in TV, like in those long reoccurring shows yes, for sure.
Speaker 1:Where the actors are pretty predominantly the ones running the show from an artistic standpoint, because they live with the characters. They know it. Yeah, the director comes on for a couple episodes. Maybe the director photography changes, but the actors are always staying consistent and that's why they get producing credits. I think, yeah, producing credits multiple seasons down the road, because they know the show Better than anybody, better than the writers at some point, and I think that's a really cool thing that I think more film and TV should embrace. Is this idea of giving the show to the actors after rehearsing for ages, yeah, yeah, now for writers, because you've now written a little bit and as you're exploring scripts more, and as an actor who's written a ton of scripts, a ton of plays, is there something that you want to share with writers to better help convey the story to actors and or directors, to better help convey the story.
Speaker 3:I don't know necessarily if I have, because that's not something that I've thought about. I do know that I have a deeper appreciation for how all of the pieces come together. I see the writer who has the idea, who comes up with the nucleus of the whole thing that we build upon right, is extremely important. But I've seen people write horrible things and then the director, and then the actor, and then the cinematographer, everybody's put their creativity and make it something, and I've seen incredible scripts created by this wonderful writer be destroyed because of the people who are doing you know so, who are creating it.
Speaker 1:To piggyback off that. It's interesting to see a line that's like exposition or just a throwaway. And then you have a master of the craft come in and just deliver the like. The spies are here and here's the data, and it's just you sit there and go.
Speaker 3:Yes, read me the phone please. Yeah, absolutely I think.
Speaker 1:I think it's. Yeah, that's the hard thing about film is that in theater it's all the actors. You're just there in the space. The writer is gone, because usually they're dead. Uh, you know, uh, shakespeare, for example you're working with Shakespeare, the director's gone, it's just you and like, the stage manager and the lighting designer, if that. But in film, everybody in that creative not hierarchy, but in that creative like, yeah, hierarchy, I guess the director, the director of photography, yeah that world yeah they're there yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's what makes film so fun is when you arrive on set. In that moment all those creative things start to spark off each other. So maybe theater can learn something from film, but I feel like it's a union thing. Right, the director's not allowed to be giving notes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a union thing. Some people do it in some places, you know, and in the case of the show that I just did, american Repertory Theater, kate Hamill, who wrote the play, was an actor in the play. Oh, okay, interesting.
Speaker 1:So we had the playwright there the whole time, which was great as an actor. When you read a script, is there something that you wish the script would have, that sometimes it doesn't, something that would help you as a character, as a presence in the scene?
Speaker 3:No, there's nothing I respect from the scripts that I have read over the years. I respect it. When people come at things a different way, I respect it. I just saw this this I haven't read the script, I just want to. Again my feed on social media. This one guy comes on. He said here's a script that I read and I love what this writer did. Page one they all died yeah.
Speaker 3:I was like, wait, what? Like that was on page one. I was like, how cool is that? You know what I mean. Like to just go, I'm going to just make this statement and just leave all this blank space and then make you turn the page. If you're reading it that way, right? And the next thing, and then it was like another sentence for page two.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting Okay.
Speaker 3:And then it went on from there right and got more grander or whatever. But you get an energy from it, the the the play that I just did. Reading the script, there were certain things that kate hamill, the playwright, did that I was like, oh my gosh, that's really interesting. Well, that's cool. We all know people putting in pauses and you know whatever, uh, or a little dash here. You know to like, apply, you know to suggest that this is happening. But there were ways that she wrote the script that kind of told you or helped you realize oh, this is the energy of it. You read the script and it tells you it needs to move. How cool is that? Like by the structure of it. Read the script and it tells you it needs to move. How cool is that like by the structure of it, right, similar to the thing that I was talking about, um, that I saw on my social media sentence yeah, turn the page. It gives you a mood instantly. There's a vibe there and I love playwrights and writers who do that there.
Speaker 1:There's a similar thing that I remember hearing about. I forget what script it was, but it was. The page was rolling, and it was like hey, da-da-da-da, the actors move here, they move here and they enter. I believe this is how it happened. They enter, dot, dot, dot next page, and in the middle of the page it just says a white room, and the page is blank, and then you go to the next, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was structured, but it visually gives you this sense of boom, a white room. I will say, though, that, as new writers, emerging writers, try these new things like shh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:no, try these new things Like shh yeah yeah, yeah, no, I hear you Like it's salt.
Speaker 3:You know it's like tasting salt, Exactly You've got to learn how to play the notes first before you start riffing right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like you need to learn the scales before you start. You know, whatever, and I think that that's something that I teach. I try to teach actors also. I know you want to get up and do this grand thing, but you're like this yeah, because you want to do it so bad and if you don't relax, we're not going to receive it the way you want us to right. So you have to learn how to play the scales first. It's not the most exciting thing to go. Here's how you format a legitimate script.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or how to organize a story yeah, people do get in trouble because they think let's say I'm going to run before I can walk and then they'll write this grand epic. And then you're reading it and you're like, wow, you have no act one. Or, for example, you've built this incredible world, you don't have a main character.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's still more to do. But they're like no, it's fine. Yeah, you know. And then you know there's this conversation of them being too precious with it, so that we can kind of throw back to you from episode three yeah, you've got to run before you can walk. Yeah, I think on that note we'll have to end, all right, our. I think on that note we'll have to end our conversation. Wayne, thank you so much for sharing all this advice, all this knowledge, all this experience. You just finished the show. I was going to say if people wanted to see you go to Boston or not but they just finished.
Speaker 1:Anything coming up on the horizon?
Speaker 3:no, I'm just working on this book that I'm writing. Can you tell me more about the book? Nope, we'll talk about that later.
Speaker 1:We'll have to come back on when the book's coming out. Well, thank you again. Thank you for everyone listening. I hope you all learned something. Go make something. Don't be too precious. No, not run before you can walk, walk before you can run.
Speaker 3:No, I say that goes to run before you run before you walk, I mean, and the only reason I say that is because, uh, a lot of the times you, you learn from it, because you're going to fail because you're going to fall.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was just telling a story about that the other day. My friend was like hey, my, my partner runs a marathon. I was running a marathon in seattle. I was like cool, I did that. Once I ran a half marathon in ind, in Indiana, with a week of training and three days. I couldn't walk. I did it, I completed it, I did, but I only trained for a week. I was like I'm young, I'm in shape or whatever.
Speaker 2:I can do this.
Speaker 3:And I couldn't walk and it taught me something. So sometimes run before you walk so you know what you have to prep for.
Speaker 1:Film is a confusing, ever-evolving, often contradictory medium Film, theater and television so enjoy that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Have fun.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll see you next time. Bye, thank you for listening to the anywood podcast. You can find the podcast and anywhere you find your podcasts or on the cfa youtube channel from the cfa network.
Speaker 2:Cinematography for actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematographyforactorscom. Cinematography for actors institute is a 501c3 nonprofit. For more information on fiscal sponsorship donations because we're tax exempt now, so it's a tax write-off and upcoming education, you can email us at contact at cinematographyforactorscom. Thanks.