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Indiewood
A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Indiewood
Film School Pros and Cons: An Inside Look From Student and Professor
Film School Pros and Cons: An Inside Look From Student and Professor
Is film school worth thousands of dollars and two years of your life? Screenwriter, director, and UCLA professor George Huang doesn't have a simple answer – but he does have some hard-earned wisdom worth hearing.
Drawing from his experiences as both a graduate of USC's prestigious Peter Stark Program and a seven-year veteran teaching at UCLA's film school, Huang offers a refreshingly honest assessment of what film school can and cannot provide. Pod host Yaroslav Altunin also shares his experience as a grad student at the UCLA School of Theater, Film and Television, giving insight to new students who may be thinking about what degree to pursue.
Join us for our last episode with writer/director George Huang as we explore the benefits of film education and if film school needs to be a part of that growth.
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A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers
More on:
IG: @indiewoodpod
YT: Cinematography for Actors
In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.
Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.
Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.
"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."
Hello and welcome to the IndieWood podcast, a podcast about independent film and the many hats filmmakers wear in order to get those films made. Every month, I am joined by a new filmmaker, a new creative, where we talk about their approach to the craft and how they thrive within the visual medium of film. And this month I've been talking to a Wonderful creative, a wonderful writer, director and producer, and my former UCLA professor in grad school. So welcome, george Wong.
Speaker 3:Glad to be here.
Speaker 1:You know, we need to get you a stylist the same outfit, seriously the same outfit, four weeks in. I mean, you didn't think that you just don't care.
Speaker 3:You know, if we were going out on a date, you would have changed, but you know.
Speaker 1:It's one of my favorite outfits. I got the high socks with the high jeans a sweater. Is this Converse they're literally vans. Yeah, maybe they're vans. When I'm stylish, I never change.
Speaker 3:Okay, there you go. No, no, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right, right.
Speaker 1:When we were prepping the pod, we talked a lot about film school, because we met at a film school. Yeah, that was our entry point, yeah, and then you had this interesting thought like well, how did you now me being at a film school grad school?
Speaker 3:uh, eight years now no, not eight years no seven 2018 to 2005 right uh seven years, seven years okay, yeah, almost eight.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know how was it. You asked me like, how was it for you? And I had the same questions like how do you see it evolving and what are the costs and benefits, and so, um, I wanted to like unpack that a bit more with you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, film school has always been sort of a how do I say? It's an interesting? It's always been a conundrum for me. So I went to USC, which is, oh my God, the film.
Speaker 1:But you did the Peter Stark program.
Speaker 3:I did the Peter Stark program, but again, even then it was drilled into us Like, oh, you're the best of the best of the best. When you get out of here you'll have your choice of any job you want. You're gonna be running a studio. It's like really okay. Wow, this is great. Of course you get out.
Speaker 1:It's like hey I've got my mfa from usc and just crickets or like get in the back of the line.
Speaker 3:It's like okay, so yeah, I spent two years and a hundred thousand dollars for this what yeah, so, um yeah. So I've got sort of like very mixed feelings about it. I mean, you know one of the things that we'll say about USC, at least in the Peter Stark program. One of the big things they do is your first year, there's a summer internship that they guarantee you.
Speaker 3:That usually ends up being you know your pathway into the business. So the Peter Stark program. One of its like biggest draws is it gives you a guarantee to your summer internship. That usually becomes your pathway into the business you know, a lot of you know peter stark grads. He started out at like an agency, like david kramer who's now the head of uta you know, had his internship there. Uh, jonathan glickman, you know, ran um uh like a couple studios that he started out as I think, Revolution and now he's like the head of the United Artists.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my internship, because I was already working at Paramount as a financial analyst. They had me placed me because of my business background. They put me in accounting, where they discovered I'd be interning for myself. I'm going and plus you know, I told him I was like I want to be more on the creative side he's like yeah, but based on your resume, you know that's what Paramount wants you in the finance department. They already have me in the finance department.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm already working.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're paying me for it.
Speaker 3:You know it's not a free internship and so sadly, you know, I did not get the benefit of you know, that entry point, that a lot of other sort of peter stark grads, you know, and so it's with some bitterness that you know I left usc and like, okay, massively in debt, I can't get a job.
Speaker 3:You know what's going on, um, and then, even as coming up through the you know business, like you know, um, you know, uh, like robert rodriguez, you know, yeah, he never graduated from film school. Uh, quentin tarantino was very vocal and always jabbing me about my film school bona fides. He would call me and quiz me like okay, hey, mr Film School, what's your three favorite George Stevens movies? I said, what are you quizzing?
Speaker 2:me, yeah, yeah. Like okay a giant, shane, you know a place in the sun, you know yeah, it's just like they feel there's not an authentic authenticity there yeah, if you're a film school guy even to this day, like it was on the set of weekend in taipei.
Speaker 3:Okay, we, you know, I want to get like, uh, the next shot should be this coverage and like and luke would like slap my hand. He goes mr film school, stop, you don't need, you got, you got what you need, just move on. It's like okay, yeah, so yeah, so it does? I think sometimes it can drill bad habits into you again I look at what the way robert made on mariachi.
Speaker 3:With my film school knowledge, I would have never even tried, you know, because it's like it's so out of the box and so like, oh, that's never gonna work and so yeah sometimes, you know, the dogmatic approach to teaching film can actually be a limitation, and so, you know, I got introduced to sort of coming to UCLA to teach by Gina Kim, one of the professors there.
Speaker 3:I had written a script for her called Final Recipe that starred Michelle Yeoh, and you know we had such a wonderful experience and she was already teaching at UCLA. She told me it's like hey, there's a position for a screenwriting professor that's opened up. You should apply. And I well, look, I do want to teach, you know, but I'm still working right now. She goes. Oh, no, no ucla is a research institution. You're supposed to be quote unquote doing your research while you teach, and that means you should be making movies while you teach.
Speaker 3:It's like oh it's gonna be the best of both worlds for one. My parents would stop giving me law school applications because I'd have a real job. And so yeah, so I applied for it. It was like a two-year process and finally, yeah, I got the job and came into sort of like the idea of teaching, and what I loved about UCLA's program is that 434 that we discussed earlier, the idea that you have to generate screenplays yeah, yeah, in my time at USC, I only wrote one screenplay.
Speaker 1:That's why I keep hearing from the Stark program and the screenwriting program you write the one thing and you work it to death Exactly You're working it to death.
Speaker 3:You're spending all your time on it. Where at UCLA, it's just like oh yeah, every quarter, every 10 weeks, you're writing, writing, writing, writing, writing. You're developing that writing muscle which is priceless. I mean, that is worth its weight in gold. Um, yeah, I mean it's sort of those reps that you get in, you know, as you're starting out, that will help you discover who you are as a writer. It'll help you find out okay, well, I made a mistake there. That won't happen again.
Speaker 3:You know, the only way you're really going to get this done is by doing it, you know, Um, yeah, I mean there's you know, they can teach you the craft or the basics of screenwriting, but you can get that from YouTube videos or a book these days, yeah, so the real value is just holding you accountable to generate pages and really make movies. You know, make screenplays. There's a book that Robert Rodriguez hands out to any collaborator.
Speaker 3:He starts working with for the first time, whether it's an actor or whether it's another screenwriter. It's called Art and Fear and it talks about a ceramics class where the professor says at the beginning of the class okay, you can be sort of graded on, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can be graded on. You can turn one pot and we'll grade you on that, or I will grade you on the quantity of pots that you make. You know, some students are, oh, I'm horrible at this, I better start, like you know, churning out pots. And some others are like, oh, I got this and I'm going to work on creating the one perfect pot.
Speaker 3:Well, it turns out it's a student that made the most pots that turned out the best work, yeah, yeah and it is that sort of letting go, just doing it, developing the muscle, trusting your instincts, you know, getting to that point where you know I tell students, like you know, look, the hardest part for me of like being a new dad was I was not getting a lot of time to write and you know I actually missed it and so, yeah, so I want to get all of you as students to that point where the writing is so ingrained for you that if you're not working out, if you're not doing the writing, you actually feel, oh, there's a gaping hole in my soul.
Speaker 3:And yeah, and that's what I think is great about the two-year program at UCLA.
Speaker 1:I agree. That's what it did for me, Not this idea, but this missing piece where I was writing and I had read books and self-studied and written creatively since middle school and I was like I could do this, it's fine. And I wrote a screenplay and I'm like why does my first act suck?
Speaker 3:Right. Why does this suck?
Speaker 1:And then I realized, oh, I'm missing these really core components of the process of writing. That's what I liked about UCLA, that's what it did for me is it imbued me with this sense of structure and repetition to help refine my approach to writing? Because when I first, what brought me to film school was this whole in my writing process and I've written before, I've been creatively writing since I was in middle school and then, when I wrote my first couple screenplays, I was like, why, why does my first act suck right? And it's because I was missing these really core components that weren't drilled, or weren't, I don't say drilled, but weren't, like um, worked out or trained into me.
Speaker 3:There we go, that's right for it but it's interesting because, like you said, that I mean, look, you were still cognizant enough to realize the first act's not working for me. And why is that? And you know, look, there could be a myriad of reasons. But what's helpful in a workshop, too, is you're finally getting feedback.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you're writing by yourself.
Speaker 3:You know it's writing in a vacuum. Sometimes you cannot see the forest from the trees. Yeah, yeah, yeah and it takes just an outside, you know non-involved voice to say, oh, I like what you're doing here, but I didn't understand this at all. It's like oh okay, thank you.
Speaker 1:You know what, though? On the other end of that, I didn't go to film school for undergrad.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:And I had the opportunity. I was going to go to like one of the smaller academies out here in Los Angeles and I struggled with this choice of do I go to a traditional four-year university and take six years to graduate? Or do I go to film school, and so I chose the former and I went to Arizona State and I majored in English and I think that set me up for success more than any film school could have Because. I studied 19th century poetry.
Speaker 2:Restoration theater old King.
Speaker 1:Arthur old King. I read King Arthur. I think it was Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in all the middle English and and and.
Speaker 1:We talked about all these like ancient stories and and and these oral histories that were you know stories and maybe you know that's what kind of gave me the opportunity to be like, oh, there's a hole in my in process, which then led me to film school. But then, beyond that repetition, beyond that flexing that muscle, I made it a point to meet everybody. Yes, I was like I'm going to take all these producing classes as well. On the side, I'm going to take a bunch of CMS classes. I'm going to talk to everybody, I'm going to shake everybody's hand when I come in there.
Speaker 1:I want to know everybody because this is my cohort, because yes, you write in a vacuum and then, when you're done with your script, you go. What do I do? It's done. Who do I send it to?
Speaker 3:You don't know anybody, and that, to me, that is the biggest reason to go to film school, because film is a people business, it is a collaborative process, and so you've got to go and find and meet your people.
Speaker 3:And film school is sort of a perfect place to do that, because you're going to be surrounded for two years by people who you know are interested in the same things that you are, who want to do the same things that you do, and ideally, yeah, that is going to be your network. It's going to do the same things that you do. Yeah, um, and ideally, yeah, that is going to be your network. It's going to be the people who you know you work with, you make movies with and who hire you. At the end of the day, I mean, you know, look, I love my agent, I love my manager, but they haven't gotten me jobs.
Speaker 1:It's people that I came up, you know, through the business, with, whether I worked with them as assistants or whether I went to film school it's like yeah, it is a people business yeah faster you can sort of meet like-minded people, then yeah, the faster you're going to sort of be able to rise in this business do you feel like a film school that isn't USC or UCLA, let's say NYU, afi, like the top ten if they're not top ten? Do you feel like you'll get the same experience even if you go and meet a bunch of people? You do that repetition, or do you think you're getting the same reps and the same training and the same like connections with the same community?
Speaker 3:it's hard to say because I'm you know, I've only been exposed to USC and UCLA. You know, um, I'll be honest, both schools are kind of like really siloed everyone has to stay in their lane, like when I went to usc, you know.
Speaker 3:Uh, they made all of us wear suits and ties every single day to signify we're the producers okay now to me that just alienated me yeah, all the other people that I wanted to meet, you know, um, you know, while I was at USC, you know, james Gray was there, john Singleton, brian Singer, you know I didn't really get a chance to sort of hang out, you know, or meet them because, oh, you're a producer, you're going to wear a suit and, yeah, you're going to stay away from all of them. You know, similarly, at UCLA, you know, you witness, all the programs are very uniquely like okay, screenwriting, just the screenwriting.
Speaker 3:Directing and production, just their own stuff. You know, producers is the one program that seems to have opened up a little more, you know. But then you could be cynical and say, well, they just need the headcount to get some of the classes you know finance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because like 10 kids a class?
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly so yeah, so I wish there were more collaboration among all the departments. It's something that we keep striving to do, but no one seems to be able to sort of break down those walls.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite classes was a producing class. It was the first producing class Producers Take, and it's taught by Alex Franklin, who's a former oh my God, former producer. Now he's at Anonymous, I believe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think he's a manager.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at Anonymous, I believe, yeah, I think he's a manager. He reps below the line, so cinematographers and you know, craftspeople, and he does this thing where he brings in some of the I don't want to say worst scripts but like some of the most difficult scripts to read that are actively being produced and or are going to be produced, and it's interesting reading some of the most difficult scripts to read that are actively being produced and or are going to be produced, and it's interesting reading some of these scripts because, you're like oh, that's a script.
Speaker 2:Somebody wrote that.
Speaker 1:And then two years later you see it on the screen and you're like, huh, okay, and some of these scripts I don't think are ever going to get made because they're so out of left field. But that class taught me so much about like the process and the craft and the, and also gave me comfort in the fact that I could write a bad screenplay could still get made well, hopefully it gives you the comfort that you can write better yeah than most of the screenplays are getting out there and, it's interesting to say, that's something I've incorporated into my 434.
Speaker 3:Now, every week we read an unproduced script that's like on the blacklist or is an Andrew Nichols finalist and yeah, and uniformly. Yeah, they're not the greatest sometimes but, you know they are the ones that are being talked about. Yeah, and you know it gives our students a little more confidence and knows like oh, I can do better than this, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know, and yeah, sometimes that's all you need, sometimes in like making a movie or writing, it's all you need sometimes in like making a movie or writing. It's just. You need to have the confidence in your own vision, and especially when you're starting out, it's always like oh, I don't know, is anyone going to like this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, and yeah, because you're in a vacuum, yeah, exactly, you just don't know. And then you know, look, that's what got scripts. And they're like okay, this is crap, this is garbage, this is crap. Wait, they're represented by CAA. What the hell? Yeah, I can do better than that. And so, yeah, that's what sort of motivates you to get out there and say, okay, well, if you can do better than that, show me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was. I read, I interned for a couple of companies and I read some.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Didn't change Got made? Did it do? Well, I don't know, did it Right? Yeah, I had something I wanted to say. What was it? What was it? I was film school producing class, so hard. No, it was like such a good nugget too. Ooh Ooh, you said screenplays, confidence, Vacuum Forcing the Trees you said screenplays, confidence vacuum, forcing the trees. Yeah, let's, let's uh so, um, yeah, we'll edit that part out.
Speaker 3:Leave it in Right I know.
Speaker 1:So, like having these unique experiences where you know there is a benefit and like sometimes it might not be, you know, try again. So we've kind of talked about both benefit, the pros and cons Right Of of going to film school when do you think it's worth the cost?
Speaker 3:That is hard because, again, you know, my sort of the guy who sort of like pushed me off the ledge and inspired me was someone who didn't have resources you know, and took the money he had to just go make a movie and that's a better film school than you'll probably get from actually going to film school, just going out and doing it and discovering stuff for yourself. But you know, yeah, I mean it all depends on your personality, quite honestly. There are some people who need structure, you know, and I get that.
Speaker 1:I think I'm one of those people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my wife is like that. She likes having a steady job.
Speaker 3:She likes going to an office, even though she commutes three hours a day to get to said office, whereas, like, I have no idea where I'm going to be next week. I love that. I love that, like when I was a financial analyst, I tried the structured thing and I realized, oh my, my god, this is why people drink at lunch. You know, this is the only way I could get through. The day was like I was having three martinis at lunch. Just make the clock move faster. So there are personalities who need that structure and that's not a knock against them. You know, my wife is very good at what she does, but she needs a place to go to, she needs an office, she needs a nine to five, and so I think film school helps those people. You.
Speaker 3:You know, whereas, like some, it's like I don't know, I'm just going to fly by the seat of my pants.
Speaker 1:We're just going to make a movie, let's go. I don't remember if you said this or if I heard this somewhere else, but this idea that you get out of film school what you put in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I don't think where I heard that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like I remember coming in and I literally gave everything I could to those two years Right and I got back a lot. Yeah, you know I got back. You know a job, oddly enough, an incredible community that I still connect with every day and give you know my material to they read and give me notes, or even who work at production companies and are now like my friends and colleagues.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and then. But I also see the, the the other end of it, where people maybe are expecting us of, of something to happen and then, and then they come out of it and like, well, what, what, what did I get?
Speaker 3:Yeah, now what did you put?
Speaker 3:expectations are the killer, and it's something we struggle with every year because, look, I mean, ucla is one of the top film schools in the world and so being accepted is a huge achievement yeah and I feel that a lot of our students, when they get there, I feel like, okay, well, I'm done yeah, it's like, well, you know, you were just getting started and it's going to be five or six years after you leave here that you know, before you get to even the first rung of the ladder, but that expectation of being, oh, at this highly reputable film school, they feel that you should just give us the job right now, where it's just like no, no, this is just the entry point and, like you said, you've got to hustle, we're not going to spoon feed you. One of the complaints that we got from a lot of the first year screenwriters like well, I don't think you're teaching enough theory or or concepts, you know and I said, okay, well, you know, that's why I started doing these mini lectures like props.
Speaker 3:Okay, here's like tricks you can use in screenwriting. But look phyllis, who's the head of her program. It's kind of like, and she astutely point is like this is a's program If you need to go back and understand what inciting incident and first act break means you should not be here.
Speaker 3:And it's like, ooh yeah, you're right, this is an MFA program, so we're not going to spoon feed you. But again, it's like every studio exec or every master, everyone's looking for what is the formula, what is the algorithm that will get me to success. And you talk to any filmmaker, anybody who's like made in, you know, had any success in this business.
Speaker 3:It's a different path yeah, you know what I mean, like robert gave his body over to science, made a seven thousand dollar film. Quentin worked in the video store. You know we're like, yeah, just an agent. The roger avery, you know I came at it working through the Assistant.
Speaker 2:Hugo de.
Speaker 3:Toro was a model maker and he would just sketch and do storyboards and concept art. Everyone has a different path into it.
Speaker 1:I always use the analogy of a treehouse. So in corporate America you climb a ladder right. The treehouse is success. The ladder is what you climb to get to success. In filmmaking you have the same thing a tree with a treehouse, but no ladder. How do you get to the treehouse? However you want, you've got to figure it out.
Speaker 3:yeah, Scale a fence, build your own ladder.
Speaker 1:Build your own treehouse. Build your own treehouse, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, I mean there are several ways into it, but again, at the end of the day, what?
Speaker 2:it does come down to is your work.
Speaker 3:Work begets more work. The more you throw work out there in the universe, the film gods will find some path for you. I've had this great working relationship with Luc Besson for 10 years now. I still to this day do not know how he got a hold of me.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, look everyone's taking credit for it.
Speaker 3:My agent's like okay, yeah, no, no, no. Like look, everyone's taking credit for it. My agents like okay, yeah, no, no, I sent that script to look. Okay, I need to call him back. What's his number?
Speaker 2:oh, I don't have it. It's like then how'd you send him?
Speaker 3:okay, forget it. Oh yeah, no, no, we sent that script that we worked on. I sent it to like luke's lawyer. It's like, okay, what's his lawyer's name? I don't know. Okay, you're all full of shit you know I still to this day. I have no idea what he read of mine, what he liked about it. He called me personally out of the blue and said you know?
Speaker 1:yeah, Actually, funny enough, a gentleman who worked with Luke at Europacor and now is running his own company in France emailed me out of the blue, and I still have no idea how Like was it through UCLA.
Speaker 2:What did you read? Where did?
Speaker 3:you find it Exactly. Yeah, and he's like I love the script.
Speaker 1:I was like where did you find it? I didn't ask him, I was so like, oh my God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, don't rock the boat Right. What's funny because I made that mistake once before Like I had a meeting with Mimi Leder script. Did you read it? And she gave me this. I was like I did not write that. Meeting over so yeah, so when Luke called, I was like I just nodded.
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 3:Super, so I didn't discuss it. I still, to this day, have no idea if it was even my script he read, but I'm not letting go of this opportunity.
Speaker 1:Thank you, exactly, exactly. Just say great, super. What can I do to help you?
Speaker 2:Thank you, exactly, exactly, just say great super.
Speaker 3:What can I do?
Speaker 1:to help you. I wanted to touch on a little bit of what I kind of prepped for coming into film school because I read a lot of screenplays. For the longest time I was like no novels, no books, screenplays only, and it taught me a lot of that structure and that format yeah, it's a completely different writing style.
Speaker 1:But now, as I'm running this grant program that's tied with the pod called the Inuit Screenwriting Fund, I'm going to do this thing with some of the writers is, I'm giving them three different screenplays that are really good, okay, or at least good movies or successful movies, but the scripts are vastly different, really. And it's Tar sound of metal, okay, and lost in translation okay, and you watch movies? Yeah, actually do you have any genre moves to suggest?
Speaker 3:there is it. So Eric Heiser who wrote the arrival. Okay, he wrote the script for bird box, mm-hmm, even though, look, I'm not really in love with the movie, but the way he wrote it was amazing. So you know, those of you familiar with the movie, there's stuff that happens in the present day when they're stuck in the house and there's, you know, stuff that, no, that's a past and stuff that happens in the present, as Sandra Bullock is trying to get the two kids to sort of safety Normally, if you and I were writing.
Speaker 3:I would say, oh, flashback to, or maybe, if we're daring, we put it in italics or a different color. No, every time they went to present day, eric Heiserer wrote it as a haiku. So just from the style of writing, you know exactly what the time frame is. That's interesting. It is really fascinating. It's like wow, that was bold and yeah, just the effort he put in the haiku. It's actually kind of beautiful and poetic and puts you in that space of the wilderness and the suspense of it. I thought it was just a masterful job.
Speaker 1:That's something we should have mentioned in the previous episode on craft, but no, we're addenduming.
Speaker 3:But yeah, Sarah Kaiser, UCLA alum. Yes, we're taking applications in.
Speaker 1:November, I think you know, film school gets a unique like a weird good and bad rap, because it can be something that wastes your time and money and teaches you nothing and leaves you more like emotionally and creatively destitute, because that's something I struggled with as well is I got so into the structure I I started a second guessing myself and I stopped having. You know what? I stopped having fun. Okay, yeah, so that took me about a year or two to be like how do I have fun again? Right, because I remember before I was having a good time, none of it was, you know. Also, though, none of it was real before grad school, and after grad school became so real.
Speaker 3:Again, it's that weight of expectation.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You've got to get that off your back and that is always like you know, like that took a while, I need to get a job.
Speaker 3:The screenplay needs to sell. In that space, you are doomed to fail. You really are, because it is too much for any one person to carry.
Speaker 1:I want to touch on what you just said. I need to get a job. I think, looking at what you did, because you had a career. You were an accountant at Paramount and you were like I'm going to shift into this creative space while still being an accountant at Paramount. I think a lot of writers expect to come out of grad school, especially out of a MFA program. So come out of film school, especially a grad program like the one at UCLA, and they expect to have a job. Yep, like hire me company.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And here's your salary. Like every writer, for the most part, is a contract worker. Yeah, we're all freelance, you're all independent until we die yep and um. This idea of I need a job can be such a weight on your craft, yep, and on your creative output. It could completely like decimate your career.
Speaker 3:It can yeah?
Speaker 1:and so, um, something my wife and I, when we taught a seminar at Rotary World University to young filmmakers, was get a job. It could be entertainment adjacent, it could be a whole different career. You can be an accountant.
Speaker 1:If you have money in your pocket and you're paying bills and you don't have to worry about eating and sleeping and having a roof over your head, yeah, that door to creativity just flies open yep absolutely, and if you have to worry about those three things like you don't even think about creativity, yeah, and when you put that kind of pressure on a script, it's going to be bad yeah, it is no.
Speaker 3:No, I remember the years where I was not as you, as productive, or even successful was when I finally bought my house. First time I bought a house and my agent at the time told me okay, you're going to have to be less selective about the work you choose and something about that.
Speaker 3:Just like it killed a little part of me inside and it made me a little desperate, you know, like the business manager saying, okay, it's going to cost you this much per month just to keep the lights on and as soon as you have that sort of anchor, around your neck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you start to panic. Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and it's hard, I get it. You know we all need to make a living. Yeah, we all want to be able to go out and eat. We want to be able to put a roof over our heads, you know, um, but yeah, starting out, you know I rented.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know I was paying three hundred dollars a month to live in somebody's garage on a mattress in the garage next to the guy's motorcycle, you know, but just trying to keep the expenses as low as possible, and that was where I was like really engaged in creating stuff. Yeah, the minute I moved it up to a three thousand dollar mortgage was like when I started to panic yeah, I was like uh yeah.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it is really really hard to sort of like be creative when you're worrying about, you know, just yeah, putting food on the table. It's. It can be really really difficult and then yeah again, you know my parents are just like they shifted from law school applications, suggesting you should go be a notary yeah, what they're like.
Speaker 1:Pulling out those applications, right, it's like okay, law school is too hard for you, just go be a notary yeah, oh my god, you've been so low me not that there's anything wrong being notary, but
Speaker 3:yeah, I have a career, I have a house exactly no, and that's honestly one of the reasons I went to go make Weekend in Taipei to show them and show my family in Taiwan. This is what I do for a living and it's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go see Weekend in Taipei.
Speaker 3:Right, but it's hard. Yeah, I mean you know, yeah, but you're right, you just need to thing that's going to take that burden of financial pressure. So you know. When you talk about multi-hyphenate, so you know, add slumlord, yeah because, like every, paycheck, big paycheck I've gotten, I immediately put it into income property.
Speaker 3:So I'm set up where you know I'm getting rent, rental income, you know, from tenants, if I'm not getting paid to write or, you know, make movies. So I at least have that as sort of like a foundation, you know um, but or like marywell, I don't know. I mean like, yeah, look on lee, you know, for years, you know, was a stay-at-home dad writing, while his wife was a doctor working, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so you know it.
Speaker 3:It helps immensely if you can solve that financial. You know. Question um yeah, so you know. You know, like Phyllis Nodge, you know our esteemed, you know head of screenwriting who got the Oscar nomination for writing Carol, she's working at a museum gift shop in.
Speaker 1:London while writing.
Speaker 3:Carol.
Speaker 2:That's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you know, and she says, look, you can take a job that is part of the industry, which is look, I think it's great, but it can become golden handcuffs yeah, I can look, I mean, you know, at the peak, you know, when I left, you know, as an assistant, I was making, you know, like 150 000 a year.
Speaker 3:You know, as an assistant, you know that's hard to leave behind and also, knowing there is a ladder here, there's a straight pathway. I am being groomed to run the studio in 10 years, you know, but my heart wasn't in it. I mean, you know, I look at my boss's lives and just go yeah, I don't want to do what you do for a living. I don't want to have to do a breakfast and lunch and dinner with somebody every day and then, like every night, go to some event and schmooze and like yeah that that is, you know.
Speaker 3:and then work on 12 different movies at the same time. It feels like it would kill my soul, but that pathway was there for me, but I decided let me jump off the cliff and see where the creative side takes me.
Speaker 1:Coming back to that, you said marry well.
Speaker 3:Which is why, rats, your wife, is doing great 1923, she's killing it.
Speaker 1:I think what we're trying to get down, we're trying to drill down into is don't put that kind of pressure, exactly Don't put yourself in a position like that. On the media success of your creative output, because you're just going to tarnish it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I hate to say look, I wish this were a merit-based industry, but a lot of it is just luck and timing. You can be the greatest screenwriter in the world, you can be kind of an okay screenwriter, but it's just about being in the right place at the right time, finding those opportunities, you know. You don't know when or where they're going to come from, but you know, as long as you keep putting yourself out there and putting your work, out there. Yeah, trust me, it will come you know I keep telling our students that.
Speaker 3:You know it's like that. You know scene from shakespeare in love or jeffrey rush, you know the producer, you know like well, how's this gonna happen?
Speaker 2:it'll all work out. Just have faith. Yeah, you just gotta have faith, you know?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean you know, there have been years, yeah, a lot of years, where I've made zero dollars. And it's just like okay, well, you know, maybe I'm going to go be a notary.
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah.
Speaker 3:But you know, but as soon as I'm ready to give up, you know, I'll go see a movie that re-inspires me, or get drawn back in.
Speaker 1:And then yeah, lo and behold, I'll's a lifelong, I think, devotion to craft it really is yeah. I guess also I keep hearing in my head someone asking from the other side of this microphone oh, but how do I put my stuff out there, right, Any way you can. Any way you can.
Speaker 3:I know that screenwriting contests, people poo-poo it.
Speaker 1:They have sort of limited, yeah, and it's hard because it is an industry into itself they're like you know, fees to enter and all that type of stuff which is why you should look into the india with screenwriting fund, because we cover your fees for screenplay competitions.
Speaker 3:But yeah, but just getting your work out to be read even if you don't win. I had a friend, uh, from film school. He entered like Rhode Island just some obscure film contest. He did not win, but the reader who read his script called him and said okay, I know you didn't win, but I have a producer who's interested in material like this, and it hooked him up with a Lifetime movie, you know.
Speaker 3:so yeah, so there are avenues. But you know, you holding onto your script and it's like, oh, it's not ready for the world or I need to get it to an agent or manager. No, just send it out there in the world, release it out into the wild. It will find somebody out there. I don't know how.
Speaker 1:It just, does it just does.
Speaker 2:It's just weird, it just does.
Speaker 3:But yeah, the more content you can create, you know, while sort of like honing your craft and just sending it out there the world. Yeah, trust me, it will pay off yeah, so is film school worth it?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's a question.
Speaker 3:It depends on sort of yeah, your own, yeah, your what you need. What is it if you were expecting from film school to be hired, you know, with a degree like law or medicine as soon as you graduate? That will not happen, that is not worth your money I don't think that could like.
Speaker 3:Even back in the 90s, that wasn't how it was working I graduated in 93 or now 91 and yeah, and yeah, miami-fayton media is like I thought, but but it's from usc, it's like okay, yeah, but you put in a lot and you got a lot back.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, no, absolutely yeah so I think if you are planning on going to go to film school, meet everybody you can Exactly. Write as much as you can, intern anywhere you can, that is, in the entertainment industry, and also the industry is evolving. Things are changing. There's so many more opportunities for exhibition, so many more opportunities for where you can be based now. I mean, it's still kind of, we're still experiencing new growing pains. We're like Doctor who you know it's the new iteration and he's still having a hard you know, still not being readily accepted yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think, if you're planning on going to film school, make sure you also have a robust education and a robust knowledge of things outside of what a camera does, what screenplay structures. Don't be a technician.
Speaker 3:Anybody can be a technician. You've got to have a story to tell. That's what's going to make you a filmmaker.
Speaker 1:That's going to make you a good writer.
Speaker 3:Look you know, anybody can learn how to operate the camera you know what I mean. But, knowing anybody can learn how to operate the camera. You know what I mean, but yeah, but knowing why you want to operate the camera is going to be the more important thing.
Speaker 1:On that, I think we'll we'll wrap it up, not only this episode, but this wonderful guest that I have sitting next to me. George, thank you so much for your insight, for sharing. It's great to be here.
Speaker 3:It's great to see you after seven years, after seven years yeah, it's been a minute.
Speaker 2:This whole empire, the slowly growing empire.
Speaker 1:Is it yeah?
Speaker 3:no, yeah, you're doing us proud.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, hopefully we'll see another film come out from you and we'll have you back on the pod to talk about that. Okay yeah, until then.
Speaker 3:It's got to be that script. We collab on that's true. Yeah, yeah, do it and then we'll come back.
Speaker 1:You can tease the audience now.
Speaker 3:Establish it here and then five years from now we'll have another pod where we have it. We're coming back to it, and it all started here, people.
Speaker 1:Thank you to everyone listening at home. George, thank you again and we'll see. Thank you for listening to the Anywood Podcast. You can find us anywhere you find your podcasts or on YouTube on the Cinematography for Actors YouTube channel. See you next week.
Speaker 2:From the CFA Network. Cinematography for Actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematographyforactorscom. Cinematography for Actors Institute is a 501c3 nonprofit. Thanks.