Indiewood

A Creative Executive’s Perspective On Notes That Actually Help Writers

• Cinematography for Actors • Season 13 • Episode 2

Share episode

Notes can make your script sing or send it off key. We sit down with producer and creative development exec Andrew Lang (Dark Horse, Paramount, Montecito) to unpack how feedback actually works inside the industry. What helps, what harms, and how writers can use notes to sharpen intention, clarify stakes, and protect the heart of their story.

If you’re a screenwriter learning to navigate feedback or a producer wrangling creative alignment, this conversation gives you the tools you need to make your collaborations stronger.

Subscribe, share with a filmmaker friend, and leave a review with the worst note you ever received!

____

A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers

More on:
IG: @indiewoodpod
YT: Cinematography for Actors

In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.

Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.

Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.

"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome back to the Inwood Podcast, a podcast about independent film and the many hats filmmakers wear in order to get those films made. Every month I'm joined by a different guest from the industry where we talk about their creative process and how they thrive in the medium of film. This month I'm joined by producer and creative development exact Andrew Lang, formerly of Dark Horse, Paramount Pictures, and Montecito Pictures. Right? Yeah, okay, I got that. We have been uh working together uh for about two years now, and you know, recently met in person for the first time on the pod. Uh and last episode we talked about just the industry in general. But for this episode, I wanted to kind of get down to the nitty-gritty because you have this like really unique experience of giving notes. And when you came on to do a seminar for the Anywood Screenwriting Fund Um a month ago now? Yeah. Yeah, about about a month ago, uh, you gave some really good notes. So I want to kind of dive deeper into like your experience with notes and how you see because this is this is something I do where like some someone will give me a s a a couple pages or a short or a script to read. I'm like, wow, this is this is your script, you know, but it's not good, but I'm still gonna give you notes at the level where you are, you know. And I I I I wanted to kind of unpack first when you are meeting with a writer and you are giving them notes, what is like what are you trying to get from them? What are you trying to convey to them, and uh what are you hoping to get from like that notes process?

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Um in this scenario I have I know the writer and I have read the script. Yeah. So and it's something I like and want to pursue, right? So if I've met writer, whoever, I've read their stuff and I go, you know, I really like this. There's something here, but there's stuff that needs to be improved. Is that sort of the general Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I guess we can also unpack a little bit uh the concept of like just notes in general. Like for example, if a writer is giving notes to their cohort, to their writer's group, or like a friend, you know, just trying to make it better, I guess. Yeah. Or just to give the writer insight. Because sometimes I'll do like, okay, I'm gonna give you notes to make this format better because it doesn't read well. Yeah. Sometimes I'll give you notes because like your concept's just all over the place. Let's talk about existentialism. Yeah. So um, and your notes are always succinct. So like getting into this scenario where you know the writer and you're trying to like really see if there's something there, uh, what's your first approach to notes?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, okay, so you yeah, this is really this can be like wide and nuanced and and maybe frustrating. But like you you actually speak to a couple of good issues, which is like, look, if it's a if it's a newer writer versus an established writer, that established writer is going to sort of like theoretically have nailed what they're doing, what they're telling with it, you know, give or take, like what the theme is, what that concept is, what the characters are doing. And so the notes on that end will be targeted where it's like, look, I don't know that I fully understand the journey of this person. You know, here's some ideas, like what if it did this? What if the person was like this? Um, and then just general plot stuff where it's like, wait, I'm a little confused. What's the bad guy plan here? Like we just need to clarify what that bad guy plan is. That happens with every writer, believe me. Top level, you read them and you go, I'm not sure what the plan is here. Like, are they robbing the bank or are they, you know, drilling whatever, you know, there's confusion as to like why people are doing things. So it might just be clarifying all that stuff. But if you're talking with someone that like has maybe written, like they're still sort of on the earlier side of their career and they're they're trying to figure out um, you know, then it's then then it might be a bit of a you know a 50,000 foot conversation of like, what what is this what is this about? Like what are we trying to make this about? And and getting to the core of concept and character and, you know, you know, the the classic intention versus obstacle and and making sure that that is all working. Because like, and a lot of that's just gonna come with reps. Yeah, you know, you're gonna have to write a bad one or two before you go, oh right, I see where I was failing before. I was trying to jam in too many ideas, and it needs to be just like guy wants his kids back and has to rob this bank to do so.

SPEAKER_02:

And in the you know, yeah, it's uh it's like a rep thing. Like you're building that muscle.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and you can only you really, really do have to. I've met plenty of writers that like their first thing got like far in the nickels award. But they haven't written anything else. And like, you know, and it's just like you read it, you go, it's raw. It it it like there's some good dialogue there, but like what the hell is this about? And then I ran into them two years later, and like, yeah, they they've got something set up with a production company or they might be on a TV show, and it's like, yeah, because they just wrote in the meantime. And they figured out that like, yeah, the stuff that they were doing initially was just a little too vague, a little too fluffy. Um So the notes process on for those for people in that category might not literally like I I would say that it terms it would tend to less be like a three-page PDF where it's like, you know, here's the issue with this character, here's the issue with this character, here's the plot issue, here's a structural issue.

SPEAKER_02:

Studio breakdown of notes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, right. Because, you know, I'm you know, I'm not sure how familiar your folks would be with sort of like the note structure, but they're they're kind of pretty similar. Um, you know, you get a set of notes from Netflix. They're going to be standard format. There's a standard format to it, but it's going to be sort of like here's a character issue, and they'll talk about that. Here's a plot issue they have, here's a theme issue they have, here's another character issue they might have. And then it'll be like your page notes. Page 57, it says that like, you know something, something weird. Something's weird. Does wait, is this what does this actually mean? Or is this like a mistype, or is this like something in from a previous draft? So there's a pretty standard format. But like for people on that earlier side, I'm not sure how helpful it would be to give them page notes on stuff when there might be other more fundamental issues about what they're writing.

SPEAKER_02:

What I've seen from a lot of emerging writers is not the lack of rewriting, maybe the fear of rewriting. Because usually like when you write something and then you have to go and rewrite it, you're gutting it. Like you're just you're pulling out chunks and it's like you're, you know, skinning uh uh your your favorite pet, because that's what you're doing. Yeah. But the script only gets better in that rewriting process.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think like when you know you work with writers um on that level of like, okay, I I see this. I'm gonna just we're gonna rewrite it a little bit in order to kind of make it work, uh you're making it better. You know, you're making the not only the like the flow of the story better, but better for, I don't want to say the market, but like for, you know, well, yeah, the wheel of the industry.

SPEAKER_03:

You're right, you're right. I would say better for the market as well. And again, this is all sort of theoretically in good faith with the people you're doing this with, that the the rewrites and the suggestions they're giving you are because of their knowledge and because of their experience, and they say, hey, this character is a real bummer.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, what if we made it uh, you know, this person actually is like fun and you know because that's uh interesting you brought that up because we last episode we talked about like what's the advice for writers trying to break into this the industry as it is now? What's the zeitgeist? Like, what do you tap into to and you're like, well, just write something fun and unique and like do the weird thing. But if that script gets to the stage where you're actively going to like, okay, I'm considering making it, that weird thing might be cut. Yeah, it might be. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

But that's not true. I know they seem like dichotomous like thoughts, right? They seem like opposing ideas. Like be unique and wild, but also be ready to like kill the thing that you loved. But yeah, uh again, there's a there's a sort of the the nuance of it might be that like that unique and wild thing will will get you noticed and might get that script noticed.

SPEAKER_02:

But then it'll be cut.

SPEAKER_03:

But like it might be cut because there's going to be like yeah, there could be cuts for a lot of reasons, to be fair. It might just be like that action sequence is too big. We've got to make it two people in a room instead of two people in a helicopter because that but that means five million dollars extra on the budget. We can't do that. Um But that was a thing that was unique and wild is that I wanted that thing. Yeah, I know. But now we're actually gonna make it. Like there might be some sacrifices to make for the betterment and just also getting it made. Yeah. Getting a win under your belt is better than having nothing under your belt.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember reading like a book, like a how to screenwrite book or something. I mean, where yeah, maybe maybe it was one of those like or maybe it was a financing book for for film. But it was like you write a script that's so good that even when it goes to the notes process, it's still good. You know, because the no notes process, like at least from a writer's standpoint, can tend to feel like it's degrading the uh the script, especially when you're working like in a studio system where like every assistant and like junior exec can be like, I have notes. You know, like please don't.

SPEAKER_03:

But wait, can I I I I'm gonna I'm this is this is going to be the disappointed optimist in me, which is like you're gonna get notes that you're like, this is a stupid note. And guess what? They're stupid note because there absolutely is within the culture, there are executives and there are juniors and there are assistants that'll be like, well, I've gotta have something to say.

SPEAKER_02:

They have to be confession, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I've I've come I've read some things that I'm like, I don't know that I have notes, at least right now. I'm not sure that I do. I gotta formulate some.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Why? Because you have to. You can't not have thoughts on something because that's your job is to have thoughts on something. So you can end up absolutely with people that are telling you things, and oh boy, the amount of people in this industry that will give you notes, and it's like, maybe we introduce the dad earlier on, and you're like, oh, that's the most formulaic thing I've ever heard in my life, and that does nothing. It doesn't help in any way, but it's a note you get given.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, here's the because this is another thing I wanted to talk about is like how to deal with I don't want to say bad notes, but like notes that are, I guess let's say difficult. Yeah. Right. Uh one thing I've heard, and I don't know if I've done this, but like you just don't do the note because sometimes that bad note just they forgot about it. Like they don't know what they like, they just say, I don't want to do the thing, you know, make it better. Or that's a terrible note. Uh, but then you return it and like, wow, this is great, you know, even though you've like avoided that cliche or that, you know, I don't want to say bad note, but like a difficult note.

SPEAKER_03:

By the way, believe me, writers will just be like, I'm not doing that. It is incredibly regular where someone's like, Yeah, I didn't want to change that, so I didn't do it. Um, I I I I I had actually worked extensively with a writer on a rewrite, and we were doing a relatively big overhaul of the ending because her ending was fine, but we were like myself and a director were working with her and we'd have this long three-hour conversation where it's like, yeah, but what if it was like if it ended here, we were tossing out a couple ideas. There's a bit of spitballing, and she goes away for two months and she comes back. And um the the script was almost identical, and there were like just a couple of things changed here and there. And I was like, hey, but we talked about like a whole different ending, and we all like seem to really like it. And she just went, Yeah, I'm not doing that. I I didn't want to. Yeah. And it was like, all right, that's you know, there's that's the stubborn side, but there's also the like sometimes writers will just say like, no, I look, I just didn't agree with the ending or that change that was suggested. So I'm just not gonna do it. And look, everyone's an entity in this. And again, some people in their experience mean they carry more weight, but everyone is an entity, and so there is there there will often be like a all right, fine. It's fine. If that you gotta pick your battles, you know, sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

If that happens as a producer or as like a an executive or as a director who's like making it, you know what I mean, who's like, I'm gonna take this and thank you for for playing. Uh, how do you deal with like those things where okay, well, that big change that's kind of important wasn't made? Does that stall things, or do you like, okay, we'll bite the bullet and continue?

SPEAKER_03:

You make it work.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you make it work. The the higher end things will just bring on a different writer. Yeah, okay. You know? Well, it still needs a rewrite. You know, look, the person who wrote the spec that sold had something in the deal she signed or he signed where it was like you you get a rewrite. You get like a polish and a re a rewrite and a and a polish. And they might do that, and they might do some of the things and you get to a point where you're like, that's a dee it's decent. It's definitely improved. But you know, look, if you're at a studio, then talking high-end stuff, right? They will say, We're just gonna bring on another writer. We're gonna pay a writer 100k to just we're gonna give that writer some notes and let them formulate some ideas and we'll send them off to do that rewrite.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh that's I think a big thing for some writers who like don't have credits, but like have entire careers as a writer because they'll come in and be like, I got this. Yeah. Like this not the script doctor, or I guess, yeah, maybe the script doctor, I think that's what they call them. Um on some level.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's every big writer you've ever heard of, you know. Take a pick of anyone that they, you know, that that they might have four credits of like good movies, but chances are they are, you know, chances are they're making a quarter mil every every six months to just rewrite something for a studio. We have a horror movie that needs a rewrite. Well, get it. That guy in and you know, we know his rates and like, okay, we'll do it.

unknown:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um something to kind of mention when dealing with notes that are difficult, but for a writer, something that I've always done is like, okay, well, you've given me notes on something, forget the context of the note. Something in that moment just doesn't work for multiple people in this room. And uh when I've gotten a note where like, hey, how about this? How about and I and just a sidebar as well, sometimes I think when when producers have given me notes specifically, they're just putting out ideas. And I think the the thing that I, as a young writer back then, was having a hard time with was like, oh well, they're producers, they know better.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm like I got to a point where I realized like, oh no, no, no, no, no. They're just throwing ideas out. And I I was really thankful that they made me feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_03:

So you don't necessarily know better. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

And so they they gave me ideas and I was like, okay, I see you. I don't like that idea, but I'm not gonna just nod and go, haha, okay, and then not do it. I'm gonna work with you to see if there can be a better solution. We're all both happy.

SPEAKER_03:

So you're you just said the thing that I was about to say, which is uh and also vaguely speak to a project that the an actual project, which is we had this uh we had this action thriller get set up at Warner Brothers, and the writer it was his first sale, it was his first big thing. He's actually a very good writer. And whenever he would get notes, um he would do the notes. But the thing that made him and got him other jobs at the studio and elsewhere was that when he was given a note, he wouldn't necessarily look at that note as like the fix to make, and some do, and sometimes like those notes will just be like, fix this thing here, change this to this. No, he's not a blonde, he's a brunette. Fine, okay. But what this guy would do is that he would he would just use that as the launching point to go like, all right, I'm gonna figure out a whole other thing beyond what they're asking that I think is a better version of it. And, you know, look, you go on your instinct and you go on your skill and you bet on yourself, you know. And that's what I'm saying. He would do that, that voice, and and he would very often, more often than not, come back with a thing that you're like, oh that's that's better. That's better than the thing that, yeah, guess what? It was producers just spitballing ideas. Um that might not have been very good. It was, you know, like executives at studios don't have better or worse notes necessarily. Um I would say it's like it try to try to go above and beyond and think of the idea that they're not thinking of and you know Yeah, I would say treat, and this is something I had to learn early on too, is treat them like colleagues.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, because sometimes writers come in, they're like, oh my god, yes, you're like you're my boss, like I have to do your thing. Yeah, no, no, this isn't corporate America. Like we're colleagues, like we're giving you ideas to make this collaboration better. Yeah, and that's what it is in the end, it's a collaboration.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think everyone goes everyone will go in in good faith. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Everyone 99% of the time, because there are exceptions.

SPEAKER_03:

There's gonna be exceptions, yeah. Of course, of course. But everyone will go in with good faith that they do want to make that thing better. That they do want to like I've never been involved in a project where there wasn't somebody, myself or someone else, that was like, I just really like this one. I I want to figure out how to make this thing work. That third act isn't working. Let's we'll we're gonna we're gonna get there. We'll get there and figure it out. So it's usually good faith, but of course there's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02:

There's there's always gonna be exceptions. Yeah, yeah. Another thing I wanted to touch on was the notes process working with a writer and a director. Because I feel like you have, as a producer and as a development executive, have your own perspective on like the script and the project as a whole, from like as an entity and the company, but then a director comes in as like, I have a vision. Yeah, I have, you know, let's talk about scene work and what whatnot. Do you see notes from a director to the writer differently than what you give or like what a producer would give?

SPEAKER_03:

The umbrella thing that I think you're getting at? Yes. The answer is yeah, they're all different. Sometimes they're very similar. Directors come in all shapes and sizes and varieties. Some don't give a rat's ass, some are intimate in every line. Um, you're gonna get all different versions of notes with that. Sometimes it's a conversation, sometimes it's a well-thought-out email that's long or a PDF that's long. You're gonna find them in all different varieties. All directors will work differently. They'll work very differently than an executive or or a producer who will hopefully generate some document in which you can reference, right? But a director might be a little bit more. Let's just have a conversation about the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just rap about this, uh I can't believe I used that word. Let's just rap about our lead and like what he's into. And that's the notes. Again, they'll come in all different shapes and sizes. But I think the overall, like what I have noticed very often that is a frustration, and I think maybe I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it it dooms projects more than more than you'd like. Of course, budgets and cast availabilities will always doom something immediately, you know, in in a very, very like finite way. But what can often do it is a is basically too many cooks.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And if if everyone's not on the same page, if that producer that met that writer that got that spec and said, that's oh, that's die hard on a die hard on a on a name a vehicle. Yeah, yeah. Die hard on a nope, we've done a bus. Whatever the vehicle is.

SPEAKER_02:

On a semi? I'm sure that's been a hovercraft.

SPEAKER_03:

Very diehard on hovercraft. They go, that's the one. But then, you know, you've got then you bring a director on board. And the director goes, yeah, I like hovercrafts, but what if it was like a hydrofoil instead? And it's like, okay, we've already peeled off a in a slightly new direction, but you've got a director on board and they love it. You've done some rewrites on that and it's going in a good direction. You take that to a studio or streamer and you're lucky enough to set that up. And then you've got a set of executives going, we already have a hydrofoil movie. What if it was a low Earth orbit spaceship? You know, and then it's all of a sudden it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what are we making? Like, because now we're all of a sudden like a bit juxtaposed. There's a lot of different pieces of a puzzle that are, I think, being jammed together incorrectly or upside down.

SPEAKER_02:

So whose responsibility is it to like wrangle that like wrangle those cats? Theoretically, it's the producer. The original one?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, because it's like that's the day-to-day on the project. The studio executive is the one evaluating it for their company and trying to keep it in line and direct it in, you know, with the in conjunction with a director and a producer for sure, but they're not going to be the one necessarily.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

A director might be hands-off, or they might be the one actually fully doing it. Sometimes the producers will sit back. Sometimes producers can be like nothing entities. Again, everyone comes in all different shapes and sizes, but the over the over like the thing I'm trying to get across is that like there might be like these instances where like the thing doesn't resemble it started as. Yeah. And that that can lead to a lot of different problems. Those problems being like now we don't know what it is that made it special to begin with.

SPEAKER_02:

Or the writer, for example, loses like the heart to continue writing it or rewriting your own.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, absolutely. We've I have experienced writers who are just like, I don't, I'm this isn't mine anymore. Yeah. This has gone so far away from the thing. You should probably find someone else to do it. But again, you know, you want to keep it on sort of rails. You want everyone to be pulling in the same direction. Sometimes it might not. Everyone's got to be like prepared for that because some stuff might just end up sitting on shelves because no one was pulling in the same direction. Everyone had a different vision for what it was going to be.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I had a superhero script that people loved. They were like, well, let's do it. Let's see if we can make this. And then it evolved into like, okay, well, let's see if we can fold it into uh an origin story for a comic book company villain. Yeah. And I'm like, great. You know, like let's do it. Because uh that felt really aligned with what the original story was. But sometimes that happens, you know. And do you wanna do you want that credit? Or not? And that's it's and saying no is totally fine. Like saying no is as a is a no is a complete sentence.

SPEAKER_03:

Never forget that diehard three started out as a spec script called Simon Says that they folded in.

SPEAKER_02:

Was it about was it a diehard script to begin with?

SPEAKER_03:

No, it was called Simon Says. It was just a spec.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

About a guy tormenting people with the Simon Says game. Oh my god. And so they were just like And they were like, this actually might work for John McClain.

SPEAKER_02:

That's interesting. Yeah, we had a whole off my cat a whole conversation about like die hard as the uh the sub sub genre as as a genre in and of itself. Like as a genre in and of itself, yeah. Like what's the and then what was the what was the um is there any other film that's become that you know I don't think I don't think it has. I can't think of one. No, maybe somewhere. Right now I can't. What's it called? Uh do we have comments? I don't think we have comments on the on the uh the Spotify or Apple Thread. I don't know. Uh find us on YouTube and and and throw up and throw it in the YouTube comments. What's the other like subgenre of film like diehard is, you know, yeah. Um so yeah, to writers, I'm gonna wrap it up early because I want to talk to you about next week's episode, uh, which is about collaborators and working with directors and working with producers and how writers can find producers and how producers find writers, because I think that's really important. That's like the biggest hurdle for a lot of emerging writers. Um so we'll end this episode here on notes. Um give notes to your collaborators based on how to make their script better, but how to make their story better, not your version of it. And also treat your collaborators uh and the producers you meet, the directors you meet as colleagues, because they are. You know, don't feel like everything they say is gospel, because it's not.

SPEAKER_03:

No. Yeah. And when needed, stand up for your stuff. Yeah. If you feel it's essential and required and part and like a major part of what you first fell in love with, the idea, otherwise be prepared to kill. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Sometimes that thing just isn't clear. And when you're like, oh no, here's the clarity of it, and then I see it.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Yeah, different story. Yeah, yeah. I've had sure.

SPEAKER_02:

I've had producers who are like, oh, can we change this and do something else? And I'm like, I I want to fight for this, but I feel like you're not seeing the vision. Give me a sec. And I come back and they're like, love it, I get it now.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Um that note, Andrew, thank you for coming again. Uh we'll see you next week. All right. Uh thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for listening to the Anywood Podcast. You can find us anywhere you find your podcasts or on YouTube on the Cinematography for Actors YouTube channel. See you next week.

SPEAKER_01:

From the CFA network, Cinematography for Actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematography for actors.com.

SPEAKER_00:

Cinematography for Actors Institute is a 501c3 nonprofit. For more information on physical sponsorship, donations, because we're tax exempt now, so it's a tax write off, and upcoming education, you can email us at contact at cinematography for actors.com. Thanks.