18. Sleepaway Camp (1983)

🏕️🔪 Hey Cuties! This week's Whorror Icon episode is a spooky nostalgia trip as Crybaby and Bowie dissect the cult classic Sleepaway Camp! From swooning over the iconic kills to melting over the slutty crop tops; all while analyzing the film's deeply layered portrayal of gender and identity. This full on yap fest covers it all. 

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Intro music by ERK2 (thanks a bunch, dude!) catch his Soundcloud here

Special thanks to Chel B Lockie, Michael Lamarra, Julia Maldonado, Jeff Gorcyca, Raymond Corrado Knutsen, Paige Vice, and Donnie Cianciotto! With out y'all, I would lose my damn mind.

Transcript

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Hey Cuties. Before we begin, I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the audio of this episode. As it turns out, during some points of the conversation, the audio seems to dip in and out I did manage to edit it and salvage most of the conversation so. It shouldn't take away too much from your listening experience. If you're a fan of Sleepaway Camp, I think you're really gonna enjoy this episode, and I think you're gonna enjoy what Bowie and I have to bring to the table. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy this scary, sexy, stupid time. What is your book of Well, hanging out with your Smartest and Funniest Friend. You know me, I'll kill anybody, but. Hi, cuties, and welcome to Horror Icon, your queer playground for all things scary, sexy, and stupid. You know me, I'm crybaby The spooky slut from your Wettest Nightmares. And I'm Bowie Kayas. Just when you thought it was safe to be sis again. Damn right. In case you can't tell Babes, we both had a day of work. Oh, oh, work. No, it was work. It was not. I was not, I don't know about you. I was not working. I was working. I was laboring. Laboring. Yeah. Yeah. In the mines. Not the baby sense. In the Oh, in the mines. Yeah. We're not doing embr on this. Just high hoe high. Sorry, this isn't a, I said it before. This isn't a show for babies. Mm. And take that in every way. You will. Not a show for babies. No. About babies. For babies. I'm gonna, I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep staring at myself in the camera. I wish you would.'cause I'm avoiding myself. So it's a good balances, a good balance. I look like trash everybody, and I love it. Welcome, welcome. Yes. Welcome to Hon. Welcome. Very on brand. Very, recording. Okay, so some behind the scenes, it's t I'm gonna pull back the curtain. Bowie and I have already recorded this episode talking about sleep away camp, however. My fuck ass microphone. I don't know what's going on. I got a new mic. I got a new cable. Yeah, it might be my interface. Yeah, just audio issues up the ass. It's a pain. Yeah, it sucks. So I'm gonna be a little bit paranoid everybody, so forgive me. but Bowie, thank you so much for being back. I mean, you don't have to, it's not a chore for me to come over and like rant a bunch. I mean. I just feel bad because you were having a hell of a time editing the like eight hour long fucking diatribe. It was only three. Uh, only, well I guess between the two episodes it was like six. Yeah. Yeah. But before we get into all of the nitty gritty, beautiful stuff, some logistical things. Mm-hmm., This never feels natural to me. I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see if I can just cosplay as a YouTuber. Hi, everybody. Cry baby here. Make sure you like and subscribe and give us a follow and hit that notification bell so you can get updates of all your scary, sexy, stupid shenanigans. But really, please subscribe. Like, help us grow. Please do that. Um, I'm really trying to be more consistent with this. And, um, do you have a Patreon yet? That was gonna be the next point of order. Mama has a Patreon. I'll set you up. I'm set you up. Mama has a Patreon. Yay. I've actually had it, but I haven't been promoting it because I have been inconsistent. I was just like, I want to wait until. I know that I can put stuff on Patreon before I give people the option to get Patreon, but it is up, it is live right now. I have two tiers that you can sign up for. The first one is just the tip.$1 a month. It's my tip jar baby. If you just want to generally support the show, throw dollar my way. You will get access to ad free episodes when I eventually start running ads on my episodes. Sexy. the next tier is the creepy cuties tier where you get, of course, the ad free content, but you get it a day early. You also get the cutting room whore, which is all of the stuff that I had to cut for time. Wow. For time. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. And when it comes to us. Good job. Well, the last episode we did, I think it was maybe an extra 15 minutes. That's it. That's it. I know. That's crazy. Um, I was very conservative with it though. I'll probably more liberal. You conservative me conservative. Yep. Dress like this. Absolutely. Maa Lago face. Abso. This is my Republican makeup, everybody. Yeah. Now that, that's out of the way, let's talk sleepaway camp everybody. Oh, I rewatched this movie earlier this week to like mm-hmm. Get a refresher. Ooh. I still fucking love it. I love it more now than I did when we first recorded this. So true. I mean, we talked about it in the,'cause I don't think this episode, it, it, it make it words. Oh, I don't think people will know this.'cause it was in the, the Hot Mess Express episode that she'll never be named. The fucking after seeing weapons mm-hmm. And walking into sleepaway camp and we're introduced to yet another fucking unhinged, quote unquote aunt. I don't know what she's on, but I want to be on it. Yes. And I think she sets us up for the movie so Well, so Well, I'm like, yeah, I'm locked in. Yes. I don't know who you are. I don't know why you're here, but I'm locked in. I'm here for it. I love you refer to it as a plague of aunts, this plague of aunts and Yes. Yeah. There's something so insidious, right. About an aunt. Mm-hmm. As opposed to a, a mother, a father uncle has its own kind of flavor to it, but aunt. Very specific, and I feel like it's, we're coming back. We are after weapons, even though, is she an aunt? Who's to say Yeah. Who's, but let's lean back into very strange aunts, It sets up the whole dynamic perfectly. In my opinion. It it 100% does Ricky, Angela, and the Ant as the whole outside world mm-hmm. That we're about to venture into. Ugh. It's perfect setup. So yes, I'm so excited to talk more about that. this is your spoiler warning if you haven't seen it. Well, first off, if you haven't seen it and you don't know what the twist ending is, oh, shut this the fuck off, and go watch it now. Don't look anything up. Don't spoil it for yourself, because it is impossible. It's basically impossible to go into this movie without knowing what the twist is, especially if you're a horror head. Mm-hmm. Um, so yes, you're one of the blessed ones, so please take, take the opportunity that so many of us Yes. Had taken from us. Yes. I, uh, when I watched it, when I re-watched it, yeah. I watched it with. Two people, Uhhuh, who had never seen it before. Oh, oh two lesbians. Oh yes. These two dykes had never seen this before. Oh my God. And I was out of the corner of my eye, just like watching every single reaction, and they were reacting exactly how I wanted them to. Oh, oh. It was perfect. Ugh. So, yeah, do yourself a favor. If you haven't seen it yet, shut me off. Come back to me and Bowie after you watch it, and then we're gonna get cooking because mm-hmm. We're switching up the format this season for Franchise Fridays. It's not gonna be a walkthrough. You know, in the past it was kind of a play by play kind of gig. Now we're just gonna be having organic conversations and just talking in general about the themes and our favorite parts. We're not really gonna be going through the plot the way we used to. Yeah. Because sometimes the plot. Sometimes the plot just evolves into like silly, goofy one-liners, which are fine. Yeah, that's fine. But it's like I could, I could easily get trapped in the one liners and never come out, you know? Well, this, this movie's got a lot of them too. It does. Yeah. So it's easy to just echo just feeds it and you just go eat shit and live all day long. You know what, I, not my Meg. Not my Meg. Not my Meg. Yeah, I agree. And also my thing with the, the play by play is like, there were so many times where like me as a host, like I'm so mentally like, well, we have to work through the storyline. Yeah. And it didn't feel as conversational. I would have a thought or something that I would want to talk about that just wasn't appropriate at that point in like the plot coverage. Yeah. And so I'm just like, you know what? Fuck that. Just watch the movie and then come back and talk to us. Especially because. The chronology of the movie is important for talking about the themes. That's true. The, the themes kind of take on a whole different meaning once you finish the movie. Mm-hmm. And then you could rewatch it and go, oh, oh, oh. You know Exactly. All those little things. So yeah, it's, um, truly a Christopher Nolan esque film. Watch it once, watch it again and you'll get, and then it's a whole new movie. Yeah, it's a whole, it's Oppenheimer essentially. It's like the same thing. Slop, inheimer, slop. Mm. That was my nickname in, in high school. She Oppenheimer till I bomb. I don't know. That was bad. Please. Oh, please. No, don't. I love that. Nobody heard that. Alright. for those of you, if you may or may not have seen it recently, don't worry. I am gonna give you a refresher. Thank God. Uh, in the vein of. Cry, babies breakdown. I have another breakdown. Uh, I feel so annoying today. This is great. Alright. Cry babies breakdown. All right. Summertime sluts, pack your crop tops and short shorts. Because we're off to Camp Ack, where the kids are cruel, the counselors are bad at their jobs and adults just planes suck. We kick things off with a tragic boating accident that allegedly claims a dad and one of his kids leaving the other child traumatized. An orphan, sorry, I'm sorry. Allegedly, allegedly. Fast forward eight years. And we meet our eccentric Aunt Martha, delivering monologues to herself like she's in a pharmaceutical ad and she's sending our painfully shy survivor, Angela and her loudmouth cousin Ricky, off to some summer camp. Fun. From day one, Angela is a magnet for bullies, mostly Judy, the queen bee of side, ponytails and titties. And Meg, the Kehlani from Dance Moms look-alike counselor who thinks bullying is a, a personality trait because this bitch looks like Kehlani. Uh, oh my God. You're so right. She does, uh, Ricky does his best to defend Angela. Mm-hmm. But teenagers are assholes and most of the adults in this movie are negligent at best and predatory at worst. Immediately campers start dropping like flies in increasingly creative and satisfying ways. Boiling water and beehives. Curling irons and all I'm gonna say about the curling iron is her pussy is on fire. Baby. As the bodies pile and suspicions rise, the camp owner Mel, is more concerned about getting through the summer without lawsuits than actually protecting the kids and in his attempt to stop these camping murders. This 61-year-old adult takes a beef with Ricky, a 15-year-old child. And finally, we land at the infamous Lakeside finale. The moment that this film secured its cult status. Angela sits naked by the water cradling Paul's severed head, Ugh, until the camera pulls back and reveals the truth. Angela is actually Peter forced into girlhood by Aunt Martha who decided two boys just won't do. And this final shot will sear itself into your brain. The teeth, the growl, the freeze frame, the cinema oof. Camp Ack, come for the summer. Fun. Stay for the gender trauma and deeply unethical childcare. Perfect. Yeah, I think so too. I stole, uh, from the last recording. You're the one I'm gonna give credit where credit's due. Bowie was the first one to say. Mel has beef with a 15-year-old kid. I had to put it in there. He does, he does. Like, that's the best way to put it, is beef. Beef. There's no genuine concern. There's no actual proof of anything. It's just beef. Yeah. It's, but I'm a vegetarian. I'm fucking scared of him. Yes. Well, let's go ahead, we're gonna go through the characters real quick before we start chit chatting. Yes, of course. We have Angela Baker, our lead played by Issa Rose. Oh. She's a survivor of the terrible accident. A allegedly cousin. Allegedly. Allegedly, allegedly. Her cousin Ricky Thomas is Angela's protective cousin. Oh, I like him. I love him. Yes. We love Ricky. Yeah. Of course, we have Aunt Martha, who is the very eccentric, uh, aunt. We have Judy, who is a hypersexualized bully. Oof. Yes. I love Judy too. She is toxic. Uh, like, uh, Gaslight gatekeeper Girl Boss. Yes. At, at, at its core she's the antithesis of a girl's girl. Yes, she is. She's a she is. She is. Pick me. She's a pick. Me. She is. Her and Meg both. Yes. Speaking of Meg, Meg Kehlani is, uh, Hey Lenny. She is one of the camp counselors and she is also very pick me. She is in this weird, ambiguous relationship with Mel. Yeah. Which is weird. Yeah. I don't know what's happening there because I looked it up. Mel, he's the camp owner is 61 years old. He sure is. He is 61 years old. Not my Meg. Not my Meg. Who else do we have? We have Paul, who is the love interest question Mark Uhhuh. I don't like him. We'll get into that. He's so baffling. He is truly, he's a nice guy and the way, and not like a nice guy, but like a nice guy. Yeah. He's that kind of nice guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then the last two people we have Gino. Oh, Gino, one of the camp counselors. That's my guy right there. And I love Gino. And then Captain Booty Shorts, the other camp counselor. His name is Ron. Ron or Rob, one of the two. I wrote down Rob, but I think it's Ron. The way Yeah, the way that I never remember because I, every time he was on screen, I'm like, oh, there he is. There he is. His short shorts. Oh, and Crop Top. I would risk it all for Gino, bro, that the random peak of this film is them having the baseball game. That means nothing does not further the plot does not do anything except to show all of the male counselors in the craziest wardrobe you've ever seen. Yes, it's. The shortest shorts. The, the shortest crop tops. Just under the tit bellies. Just under the tit. But like, it's all out. It's all out. It's a meat buffet. Ugh. Love it. Alright, let's bitch the pot a little bit. Let's spill some tea. Yeah. This is the fun, weird trivia. It is. Because this movie of course, shocking. Nobody has weird trivia. Of course it does. Yeah. Uh, first of which Judy was almost played by Jane Krakowski. That's so insane. I cannot even, I cannot even picture, you need to Photoshop her into her outfit so that I can picture it. I need to see her audition. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely need to see Jane Murkowski's audition. Oh And also speaking of who plays who, you haven't heard this one before? Mm. Young Peter Baker. Yes. In like the end, well, I guess. And the beginning, is played by Frank Sorrentino. Now who is that? The younger brother of Mike. The situation soine up from Jersey Shore. No, we're, no, we're not. I feel like that's No, he isn't. That can't be right. Actually, now that I said that out loud, I'm like, wait a second. Is it the younger brother? Or maybe it's like some other relation. I don't care. You've said it and so now that's true. It's honestly probably that is the God's honest truth because how old is, uh, the situation? Yeah. When was Jersey store? Big? 2007. Yeah, like early two thousands. And they were in their twenties at that point. Oh my gosh. Which means that 80. They could have a big gap. They probably could have a big gap, actually. Could have a big gap. Cool. It actually, it is possible frigging, um, you know, who has a big gap? Me. But, um, uh, uh, fucking, um, uh, Vera Amiga and Tasa and her sister, whom I thought was her, her sister, who I thought was her daughter. I know. I literally, I was like, that has to be her daughter. She looks just like her. And I goes like, that's her. That's her sister, sister, sister. And they're like 20 years apart. Yeah. Baffling. It's all right. It's crazy. I hope it's true. I, me too. Uh, let's see. Do, oh, this one we loved. Mm. When Sleepaway Camp first opened Mm. It was the top grossing film in New York beating out the premiere of GenTel. I mean, the, the, the, I mean, it was the Battle of the Gender films. Uhhuh and Sleepaway Camp one, of course Sleepaway Camp. Absolutely. One. Sorry, Barbara. Sorry. Babs. Uh, let's see I checked The Rotten Tomatoes. Mm-hmm. I was very surprised at this score. Oh. And pleasantly so I didn't expect it to be this high. Okay. It was 82% for critics. For critics. Okay. Yeah. The audience. I know, right? I thought it would've been the other way around. Hi. The audience view was like, I think it was like 61%. It's never like that. I know. Almost never like that. No. Yeah. And so I wrote down, especially horror movies. Damn. Exactly. Especially horror movies like this horror movie. Yeah. So I have, a couple of reviews. I grabbed some critic reviews and I grab some audience reviews. The audience reviews are always like, oh, they're so there's fucking movie, you know? Yeah. I had to unfortunately, dig through a lot of transphobic shit to find some, I'm finally a movie that shows, unfortunately, I know the trans shows, shows by trans lack. Yeah. Okay. Oh, well, our first critic review. I'm so ready. Um, I pulled Good and bad the good one. Mm-hmm. From Cody Leach A YouTuber. Mm-hmm. If there ever was a beautiful disaster. It's sleepaway camp. Oh, almost everything about the production is of poor quality. Yet there is an undeniable charm and hilarity that to its end results. Mm-hmm. The kills are creative and the ending will shock you forever. It sure will. It sure will. And if that's, if it's not entertaining you, what's the point? Exactly. What's the point? What's the point? It could be the most beautiful movie ever. Yeah. The production quality can be through the fucking roof. Like, I'll give you an example I just watched recently. It was that movie that, oh, you gotta watch it, you gotta watch it, you gotta watch. Finally watched No Shade to this man. But I finally watched Syn in New York and I was so fucking bored. It's like three hours. Oh yeah. I love Philip Seymour Hoffman. I love all these people that are in it. I was so bored. I was like. Can someone with a, a clearly fake knife from Spirit Halloween, please just jump out and kill somebody. Mm-hmm. I'm so bored. It's like something. Please, just, please, I can only do so much esoteric. Yeah. Like musing about my own death for so long. Mm-hmm. Just kill somebody. I, I guess I'm horror brained now. Maybe, but, but even then, like, sometimes you just want fun, some drama. Shake it up. Yeah. Dead. Teens. Teens. Dead. Teens. Dead children. Teens. Alright. Fuck them kids. Fuck them kids. Alright, so the bad one that I have, this one's short. Okay.'Cause some critics take themselves too seriously always. So none of their like, bad reviews are actually fun to read. No. But this one, short and sweet Ed Gonzalez from SLANT Magazine Okay. Evokes a period in time before Ritalin and Common Sense. That's it. Not Ritalin. That's, wait a minute. What? What a dated reference, right? What do you mean about Ritalin? Right. I'm so confused. I don't either. I dunno yet.'cause I feel like that movie was locked in. I don't know who needed to be on Ritalin. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't know. Common sense girl. I don't know what you mean. Yeah, it's silly Little Goose. Alright, are you ready for the audience ones please? Now before I get into the audience ones, I do have to say, funny enough, oh God. So many reviews compared Sleepaway Camp to the sixth Sense because of the ending being the defining moment. You know, I kind of get it. I get it. But it's just so interesting to see those two movies. In the same sentence, which also spoiled for me. I have not ever seen it. Oh, you haven't?'cause it was spoiled for me and I get so angry about spoilers and petty about it. Same that I will eventually see it. But yeah, those were the two. I was like, mm-hmm. I know the twists on the sixth sense, and I knew the twists on Slip Blue camp, but it was still fun to watch Sleepaway camp. It's so much fun to watch Sleepaway camp. So the sixth sense is so funny to have them in the same sentence. Night Shalon and then, oh God. Who? I don't even know her. I see dead deans. I see dead deans. Oh, dead teenagers. our fun, our positive reviews, the good audience reviews what's, we're gonna go pure, glistening and unapologetic. Yet beautifully bizarre. Slasher sleaze that gives Friday the 13th a run for its money. Hell. Yes. I enjoyed having each and every one of those words in my mouth as I was reading that. It's just like, mouth feel a perfect sentence. The mouth feel of that sentence. Especially now that I've been watching Friday the 13th, I've been yearning for her. Yeah. I'm like, oh my God, come on. I've seen sleepaway camp already. I'm kind of ruined. Yeah, exactly. If,'cause sleepaway camp is what, it's the perfect distillation of I think what Friday the 13th wants to be or want it to be when it started. Well,'cause here's what I'll say, maybe you disagree. Friday the 13th gives me, gives me such straight vibes. Yeah. And not purposefully, but just very straight sleepaway camp. You watch it and you go, this is the fruitiest shit. Anyone who is any kind of fruity watches sleepaway camp and is like, this is not for this. This is so, it's so fruity. But Friday the 13th is like straight. Absolutely. Like plays it. Double, so to speak. Yeah. So to speak. But yeah, so yeah. And it, yeah, I love it. It's Friday the 13th at a, if she were in drag ex. Yes. Yeah. Very much that. Yeah, very much. That Jason in drag. Ooh. Ooh. Can you do a, can you please do a number? Oh, in Jason drag, Jason Vses. Ah. Jason IES please. God. Mm-hmm. Please God. Mm-hmm. If only for me, and I will do it to Rebecca Black's Friday. I'm sure that's not an original thought, but could you imagine? I need you to do it anyway, Next review. Amazing, bad low budget movie. Yes. It's so bad. I have to watch it at least once a year. Yes, you are so right for that. This person gets it. She gets it, gets it a hundred percent. Now are we ready for the bad reviews? to be fair, it's no more brainless than most other eighties slasher flicks, merely three times the camp and 10 times the homo eroticism. Still terrible though. Still terrible though. Just for clarification. Wow. Ah, and the last one. They're not wrong. They're not wrong. They're not wrong. It's, uh, and I don't see how that's a bad thing. Actually, no. So, no, no. Moving on. Disgusting, vile trash by at, uh, marred, by atrocious acting and a cynical, cruel tone. The camp value is underscored by the absolutely vile screenplay. Do not watch this piece of garbage, quite legitimately, the worst film I have ever seen. I'm giving it the lowest rating possible on Rotten Tomatoes, but it deserves a zero. If you're a fan of trash cinema, though, this is the cream of the garbage crop. Okay, so I, I only need to hear the last bit. Me too. And I'm in, like, I'm in, like, I'm in vile. Vile screenplay. Also, I do not get the vibe that it's like a mean-spirited no movie at all. Because even after the, the twist is played as like, that's fucking ridiculous. Nobody would do that. No. Yeah, she is not. That's why it's so important that the aunt is so camp. It is so it's clear. Yes. Nobody would fucking do that. Yes, agreed. You do not take it seriously from jump. Exactly. Vile. Vile. I know it sounds like the, I'm picturing the guy from Oui. Oh, the, the critic. The one that looks like fucking Groot from Despicable. Yeah, absolutely. Scribbling furiously. I love how personally offended some people get by this. So, so many angry. Yes. And you know what? I haven't looked into it, but I bet this is a big assumption, but I bet a lot of queer people love it. Oh yeah. As opposed to. Straight people. Yeah. I will say I did have to also dig through along with like digging through transphobic stuff. I did have to dig through. And the thing is, I am not going to tell somebody how to feel about Yeah. A sensitive topic like this. No. But I did come across a lot of people who didn't like it because they thought it was transphobic valid. And if that is valid, like if that's how you feel, you know, I, I, I'm not gonna tell you how to feel about it. Yeah. Um, but I do think there's a lot more nuance to this that deserves a second look to. Maybe assess that view a little bit. There's more. Yeah. And we've talked about that, the difference between intent and how things are received. Yeah. So you can have honest intent and it's received poorly or the reverse. Mm-hmm. Like it's, I mean, we've talked about this with like sounds of the Lambs. Yes. I love Silence of the Lambs, but that's coming from a place of knowing that like in the story, they deliberately say he's not trans, he's some other kind of weirdo. Exactly. But all people see is a man in a dress, and that turns into perpetuating that negative shit. And so I get it. I had a friend who I was telling about, it's actually a mutual friend. Oh. But um, I was talking about like, oh, we're watching Sleepaway Camp, and the person was like, oh, I'd never seen it. And I was like, yeah. And they were like, yeah, I heard about the Twist. And I said, that's enough for me. And I was like, valid. I get it mostly. Yeah. I get it. Because for you personally, probably hits different. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And totally understand that. Yeah. 100%. So, That is, uh, consider the pot bitched. Oh my gosh. The reviews were a great, a great addition. Thank you. I always love hearing what people think about it. Me too. I kind of, I really wish like letterbox existed back when this like first came out. Can you imagine the letterbox reviews? Girl, this would've been trending. It'd be one, one and a half stars, sleigh, boots, house down. Like, you know what I mean? Exactly. So good for her. Good for her. Good for her. Good for her. I realize I don't. Should we do a quick kill count? Let's take a second just to talk about all of the, the fun deaths in this movie. Right. Uh, of course we have the alleged boat accident at the beginning of the film. John, who, where we killed John. And we find out, uh, whatever Peter's sister name was, sister's name was.'cause it wasn't Angela. No. Angela. That was the two on the nose. Yeah. Angela just, uh, came into Aunt Martha's head one day, so, uh, we had them too. Yep. Um, Shery Epstein did not die, unfortunately. No, he didn't. It was a good attempt. It was a good attempt. So the next person to die then is, um, oh, that fucker that flips over the canoe when they all go skinny dipping. Oh, no one has ever deserved it more. If you flip a fucking canoe. You, there's a special place in hell for you. Yeah. As someone who grew up in the middle of nowhere, Uhhuh like, if you flip a canoe, you deserve every bad thing of, of course. Especially for trying to, yeah. And also that scene of them popping up. Oh, just like popping up and he's just like you. Yeah. so he dies finding his body that it was pretty cool with a lifeguard. Uh, that's someone throwing chairs and she so pissed. And then who's next after that? After that we have, uh, bees. Is it, I think it's, it is bees. It is bees. Bees is next. Yeah. Another crazy random. Yeah. Unique kill. What is, what is it about slash movies? Because I've been seeing this all through Friday the 13th and all this, what is it about slash movies and having kills in the bathroom? And I understand you're at your most vulnerable Exactly. Bathroom. Yeah. But like. The scenes that they craft are too long, like dropping a a a, a bees nest into a fucking bathroom stall. I'm like, I don't need to see the guy sitting down and being like, like pulling his shorts down. I gotta take a wicked dump. I don't need all that. I really don't like, please just drop the bees and dip. Come on. Just drop'em in. Yeah. Like, we're this far, it's like when people piss in movies and it's just the loudest like fried chicken noise. Yeah. And it goes on for So you're like, why, why? Unless it's Dennis Quay in the substance. Okay. That's great. That's'cause we're like, oh, he's got a problem there, buddy. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Every other time you're like, what did that do for me? Exactly. Oh, so this person has bodily function. Cool. Because now that's gotta pee. Finally. It's nice to see myself represented on camera. I too shouldn't pee. I know I gotta pee. Like where I'm halfway through this movie now I gotta biz. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So we have Billy with the bees in the bathroom. Billy be, uh, that one's pretty fun. Gets locked in the stall. And then after that. That's is Meg. Oh, the shower, which is your, like, is one of your favorites. Yeah. I love that one because it, it's so gory, but also not at all. Mm-hmm. You see very little. It's mostly the, it's giving early Halloween Uhhuh movies where probably the 13th came out the gate with like, we're showing you the blood and the knife going in the person. Yeah. Thank you. S Halloween. Yeah. Halloween was like, he will literally put his knife through this teenager so that they are strung up on the wall, but there will be no blood. Yeah. And so it's, you see the blood and you see the knife and you see it. Her being stuck to the thing, but you. like strung up, like, like precarious. So that when he pulls and it just fall, the body just falls down. Not my Meg, not my Meg. I'm like, fuck these other kids, apparently, and it's only Meg that matters. If you ever hear me just uttering. Not my Meg. Not my Meg, it's gonna enter, like, I'm gonna like drop uh, my ice cream cone. Not my Meg. Not my Meg. Um, I didn't make him for you. Is that the same vibe? It's um, and after Meg, that's when we get. The four little shitty campers. Mm-hmm. Who are the four kids? They threw sand on Angela after she got tossed into the the lake. They did. They did. Um, they get axed up to death in the middle of the woods. Deserved, uh, yeah. Fuck them kids. Um, and then after that we get Judy. Mm-hmm. And then Paul. Wow. Yeah. Not that many considering other, other slasher films, but all great, all great deaths. There's not a single apart from maybe. The four little shits that get hacked up in the woods.'cause we don't see anything happen. Yeah. It feels, I don't think there's anything that I particularly don't like or find joy in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're all interesting to some degree. Yes. Yeah. Alright, well let's just talk about the, the film. before we get into all of the themes and stuff, I do want to, there's something I do want to talk about'cause I know I'm gonna forget about it if I don't. and I know you're gonna be in the same boat with me on this tea. I love a cold open, right? I, I, I think it's, it's pretty much become just like the standard right now for most movies, we're gonna get a cold open and like, so like the credits are either gonna be like its own thing or happening while we're watching some action, whatever, whatever. Because every movie has like eight of the production house bumpers before. Yeah. And then they'll go in. Yeah. Yeah. With this, what I love is it immediately opens with a zinger of a score, and we're right in the credit sequence. Yep. And just, we need more of that Please. In horror especially. Amen. Cold open. Sure. If your movie, if it works for your movie, go for it. But I just love jumping right on into a just orchestral tension. And I wrote in my notes, there's something about the, the Stinger and like 120 point times new Roman font. Mm-hmm. Not, not giving you anywhere else to look or think about. You're just, you're just your popcorn's everywhere already. Exactly. You know exactly how this movie's gonna be. Yep. So yes, so agree. So I just had to throw that out there. Everybody. The score of this movie is Chef's Kiss. Oh, I love it. It's chefs. So good. Kiss. It's kind of like, I wish they wouldn't do Cold opens. The cold opens start getting really long, but it's like Friday the 13th. Those openings are so funny. Mm-hmm. They're so camp I love them where it's just like they explode, but like, do that first. you know. Yeah. It's just so iconic. Crashing through the window with like, yeah. The disco remix of the Harry Man Fini score. You know, we also need to do more, we have to go back to making funny songs for the Enza Horror movies. Yes. So like the Freddie Rap from whichever nightmare. Oh, oh, oh, oh God. Was it? Was it Dream Warriors? No. Dream Warriors had the, it was another one. Dream Warriors. Yeah. There was another one where it's like, Freddy's back. Freddy's back and there's like clips of Freddy being like, that's me. Like we gotta go back to that. That was, that had to be either four or five. Yeah. Because I don't think it was Freddy's dad, child Master. Um, but yes. Yes. Agree. I just had to throw that out there. Agree. So, alright. Where should we start with this? There's, there's so much to go into. Well, yeah, I will say, I told you that I had highlighted my notes based on three major themes. Um, one is obvious'cause it's just Angela. Yeah. I have notes about Angela as a person. I think Angela's a good place to start. Mm-hmm. Because she's kind of our point of reference throughout the whole thing. So, one thing that I find very fascinating is we don't hear Angela speak until like 31 minutes into the film. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's like Wally, it's like Wally. But we're comparing it to sixth sense. We're comparing it to Wally. What else? It's, I mean, it's versatile. Yeah. What can you say? she is very alluring in a way too. Mm-hmm. Um, you said it just like her, she, the way she stares at you with those big eyes, you can tell that she's. The lights are on in someone's home, but the doors are locked. Yes. You know what I'm saying? A hundred percent. Yeah. She managed to never look like totally blank. We, I compared her to, she also, I feel like if there was a remake, they would cast her anyway. But I was saying that, um, she's giving very strong Millie Bobby Brown. Yeah. In Stranger Things like that very intense stare where it's not vacant. Mm-hmm. But it's also like it's unnerving to people. Yeah. They don't like it. Mm-hmm. They really don't like it, or. People are like curious about it. like I think one of the reasons why like Judy and Meg are both so aggressive with Angela is because she's effortlessly pulling attention from these boys. Yeah. And uh, to your point, she's not performing femininity the same way these other girls are. Yeah. Yeah. She's just existing. It's, she's kinda like tabula rasa, honestly. She's like a complete blank slate mm-hmm. For everybody to project whatever bullshit they want onto her. That's so true. And the only person who doesn't is Ricky. Mm-hmm. Ricky's the only, which I think it's crucial that we have Ricky as a character. Yes. Because he is such a grounding point of like. Always will be there to defend her. Is not gonna hear nothing. Yeah. About people talking about her. He checks everybody at that camp, whether they're a boy or a girl, he does not give a fuck. Mm-hmm. So I think it's a good foil for her because otherwise we would just get lost in like everyone hates her. Yeah. Or is like trying to fuck her, you know what I mean? Well, and it's also I think just from a, a plot perspective, it helps having another potential person who could be the killer. Mm-hmm. Because the, throughout the movie, the people that die, you know, they are all people that have personally done something to Angela. And every single time somebody, one of these people does something to Angela, Ricky is also there witnessing it. Yes. And protecting her from it. So it's almost setting us up to believe that Ricky is this protective cousin who is going to do anything to protect Angela. Yeah. It could go one of two ways. It's the creepy off putting girl. Hurting everyone who harms her, or it's the very defensive, um, uh, sibling. Yeah. Whatever comes sibling like figure. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're right. It is like important to have that because then we have Mel exploding on him. Oh gosh. When he has no evidence that he's done anything. But again, it's reinforcing that like it could be him. Mm-hmm. He's been around. Well, especially, and this, they did this out of necessity because again, Felic, Rosa's mom did not want her daughter to be actively acting in any of these scenes where somebody was getting killed. Hmm. So what they did is they had Jonathan Tierson, the actor who played Ricky. They used his hands and they used him in those scenes. So, um, even though they did that be out of their respect and wishes of, of the mother and of, of Issa, it also added another layer to that like red herring thing. Yeah. Especially in the scene with Judy when Judy gets killed. Yeah. And we see the figure standing in the cabin doorway. Yes. And she's like, who are you? Yeah. And this scene was not meant to be seen in like high definition 4K. No.'cause like you, if you watch it now, it's very obviously Ricky in a wig. Yeah. but at the time it was meant to be like, uh, no, you couldn't see this person's face and there was some ambiguity around it. Yeah. Now you're just like, oh, I guess Ricky's the killer. Mm-hmm. And then later you find out that's not true. Yeah. But I'm glad it's Angela. I'm very glad that it was in fact, Angela, because there's something that I love about a quiet bitch who was deadly. Mm-hmm. You know, I think it's, it's very fun. Yeah. Carry vibes. Very carry vibes. Well, it's also like, it's interesting like when she's being attacked and bullied and all that stuff, with the exception of when she's getting picked up and thrown into the lake. Yeah. She's very passive. Yeah. Like you. There, you cannot tell there's anything going on. It's almost like, um, you know, being told as like a queer person as a, as a woman or whatever, that your anger and your rage is not valid, that you can't express it. Mm-hmm. You can very much see that kind of demeanor on Angela. Yeah. Every single fucking time somebody does something to her. Yeah. It's, she like, shuts down. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it shows the difference too between like male aggression and female aggression as it's like approved by society. Mm-hmm. Like, everyone likes to play this game of like, well, boys are different than girls. Boys are straightforward. They'll have a fight and they'll be over it, and girls will hold a grudge over their head forever. And I'm like, have you ever once thought about why that is? And not that maybe they came out that way. Mm-hmm. And more about how we raise them because girls don't have, and I mean, they show you that in the movie constantly of like the boys playing sports, that talking, that part, talking shit where they're all piling on each other in the cabin, like. They're, it's, they're hazing each, each other. It's very physical. Yeah. And very like, clear. But like the girls, they can only do that in quiet and like, it works with the camp because they can say shit to each other without an adult being around. Yeah. And that's the only way that they're allowed to is, is by being catty and bitchy. Mm-hmm. Because if a girl was gonna hit somebody, like, that's, that's not okay. Like I learned that at a very young age. I was very. Because of trauma. Tm, I was very aggressive. I was very angry. Mm-hmm. And they, my parents put me in karate because I was so aggressive. Damn. I was,'cause I was angry. Yeah. And like, I had a reason to be, but because I was raised a girl, it was like, oh, that's not, you're not allowed to be angry. We don't do that. No. No. Mm-hmm. Like, there was a girl who called me, um, blubber face and I punched her. Nice. And I didn't remember that. I didn't remember that. And then later in life she was like, Hey, do you remember when you did that? And I said, no, but you felt deserved it. She said, I know I did. Yep. Well, I'm glad that y'all came to that agreement later. Yeah. But that is very much shown in, in this film. Yeah. And the boys, when they're rebuked or whatever, they immediately are like, fuck you. And then they, you know, like Ricky especially too, it's like, oh, if he feels a type of way, he's gonna tell you stream of expletives from Ricky's fa. Oh, I love it. Oh God. I love it. I him also, when the two boys are just bickering with Angela in the middle. When they're at the like dance thing. Oh gosh. Yeah. And they're just like, where's like Angela? So like, what? Why you so fucked up? What's wrong with you? Why are you so fucked? Yo, Angela, why are you so fucked up Literal? Yo, Angela, why? So fucked up literally a line in the film and Angela doesn't even look at'em. And I'm like, good for her. I would've broke. Yeah, I would've broke too. Like what? But it's, it's like considering all of that and then adding the other layer of Angela, you know, living her life as in gender that she may or may not Yeah. Identify with. Yeah. All of that rage and all that. Like no wonder. Yeah. No wonder she fucking, uh, pulled the chair out from that fucking chef. Uh, mm-hmm. Can we talk about that for a second too? Oh, I wish you would. Oh, I wish you would. Because I mean, first of all, that's one of the first fucking things we see is they introduce us to the campers and the, the camp counselors, and it is revealed to us that apparently the chef is a raging pedophile and shamelessly. So Shery Epstein, everybody Shery. Stop it. How dare Fucking Epstein. How dare you release the chef. The shery shery files the, the files. I know. Jesus Christ. Yeah. That child corn. Well wait. Quite literally, he's making corn in the movie. Everybody. I mean, literally, he like says something about like, where I come from, they call them baldies and the other guy just turns and is like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Well, but no, what the, the fucking, the guy that's James Earl Jones's father. Yeah. Which it's, it's very much one of those like, oh, boys will be boys kinds of mentality. He's like, oh, they're too young to know what you're even talking about. And you're like, wait, is that, wait? It's like, are you playing dumb or are you like protecting a predator right now? Yeah. I don't know what's happening. Sometimes the movie from the get go just gives you exactly who's gonna get it first. Yeah. And this one is like the most satisfying because we mm-hmm. I couldn't, I can't fathom any world in which the filmmakers were like, we want the audience to root for this guy. I could not imagine that. That's the thing. So them being like. So he's a pedophile. Mm-hmm. So you won't feel bad. Uhhuh. He is gonna, and also, if you didn't believe that here's a, a pot that is so goof big. Mm-hmm. There's no way that it's not a prop in something. There's no way. It's like a point and click game where the thing is like a different color than it else and you have to highlight it and stuff. Yeah. That's what it feels like. It's like, oh, okay. It's like that is definitely, we are supposed to pay attention to that. Yeah. Yeah. Shery is, is going in the pot. Yeah. Shery is going in the pot, or the pot's going on. Shery is what happens. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The best part is he salted that water first before it got dumped on him. So, you know, it hurt extra bad. Truly salt in the womb. Yeah. Oh, but here's the word. Here's the only thing, and I'm torn on this. Yeah. Everybody else in this movie dies. Yeah. The chef, as far as we know Yeah. Does not, he gets carried away in an ambulance, which almost. I kind of almost like better weirdly, because he, because he's gonna suffer, they take him out on the, on that gurney and he is screaming, his hands are literally like at a, they're like 90 degrees, like just straight up the entire time. And he's just like, ah. And the movie does this a lot where they let a moment play out Uhhuh, where they go, no, no, nobody move. We're gonna let, we're gonna let them react. And it's him like, ah, with all the people, like watching him go by. And then there's also in the beginning with the alleged boat accident where they said, just start screaming and we'll tell you when to stop. Oh gosh. Gosh. Because she just, ah, oh, for so long and it's so good, so long they could have cut it, they could have edited it. And I'm so glad they didn't and they didn't. Yeah. So I'm like, you know what? Let that man be a human, a human casserole for the rest of his life. Yeah. The special effects also look pretty great on this. Oh, it's so nasty. Yeah. It's so nasty. He doesn. That's one of the things that gets me in in movies. Not like a, like a, I can't watch it, but burns. Mm-hmm. When Yeah. They're so often done very well. Yes. It's like, and I will say one thing that I also appreciate about, um, as much as I, as much as I fucking hate, these kinds of characters. Yeah. I do love the fact, and I don't know if this is intentional or not, but as queer people, oftentimes we are frequently accused of being groomers and pedophiles. Yep. And I think the fact that we have. who I assume is a cis hetero That type of character in this otherwise very queer movie, getting his comeuppance and he happens to be not queer. Mm-hmm. That's what makes me feel like this movie does things Not in bad spirit. In good spirit, you know? Well, and they do the same thing. We were just talking about this with the OG Toxic Avenger. Mm-hmm. They have those teens in the car. Yeah. And she's just saying a bunch of slurs and shited and then they immediately get wrecked. Yeah. And like, you know, that's like your, your way of like, oh yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. They're, they're getting absolutely mince meat. You know, what cracks me up to is the fact like that's what you're holding onto as like this, they're gonna die. Yeah. Instead of the part that they literally run over a fucking child. They sure did on a bike. They sure did. Like 10 points if you get his head Larry or whatever his fuck Bo, whatever his name is. Yeah. but yeah, it's just, it's very nice to see, um, I was about to say vigilante justice. Vigilante justice. I was gonna say like, see, um, groomers and pre predators being depicted the way that they normally are in reality. Yeah. Um, yeah. Sorry, not sorry, What else did you wanna say about Angela? We stand a nonverbal autistic queen, honestly. everyone in this movie, this movie is just about having autistic riz. And that honestly, though, and everybody is so, they're like. Damn. She doesn't talk. Why is she so weird? And then five minutes I'll be like, damn, she doesn't talk. Yeah. Risen with the TSM baby. Yeah. Literally. Which is like, also, it's a, it's a, it's a trauma movie, weirdly. Mm-hmm. At its heart. Yeah. Because, uh, allegedly, um, allegedly in the boat, in the boat accident, like some bad shit happened and, and Angela was there for that. Mm-hmm. Lost everything. And, you know, there's, there's those few like dream sequences mm-hmm. That are very, like, genuinely scary to me in the way that they're so simple. Mm-hmm. Where it's like a kid in a bed and there's like nothing around, it's just like a bed and empty space. Oh, it was like this black void and all that stuff. Yeah. And it's like, it really is kind of like, if you've experienced trauma or like the way it, it clocks to me a lot. In the movie, is it, it seems like dissociation Yes. Where something is going on. Mm-hmm. But she's not with us. You're right in the present moment because that, uh, the, the, the, the sequence that you're talking about mm-hmm. Happens when she's on the beach with Paul. Mm-hmm. Paul. Paul, um, and he, this is when he's doing one of his fuck boy things. Mm-hmm. So they, they start like, they're flirting, they're running, they're playing, they're kissing and stuff like that. And then he tackles her and then he starts kissing her, and then he starts feeling her up and she says no. Mm-hmm. And then he says, come on Angela, I'm not doing nothing. And he continues doing what, what he's doing. Mm-hmm. Like trying to unbutton her blouse and kissing on her. And that's when the dissociation starts. So I agree with you. I think it is very much just kind of like that. Yeah. Like trauma response, like mm-hmm. Removing from, from the gig. Yeah, exactly. So it's more than just like, you know, she's scary and evil. Mm-hmm. It's like there's some complex things going on in that little human's head. Yeah. And they. It's, they have been passed off from their original family to God knows what mm-hmm. With this new crazy aunt. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, yeah. And I feel like, again, you gotta give it to Issa because at such a young age she was very much channeling that. Yeah. Like at no point do I ever have this feeling of like, oh, she's evil and like, she's gonna kill people'cause she's evil. Yeah. Like, I never got that vibe. Not that that would've been a problem. No. I love an evil bitch, but, but it's nice to see a more nuanced thing. Well, and here's another thing, like if like, had it, had there not been that nuance to it, do you think that the ending would've had the same. Kind of reception, do you think that it would've felt the same? You know, if, if she was masking as an evil person, I think it might have put us in like a dress to kill situation where it's like, yeah, she is this evil human being mm-hmm. Because she is a trans woman, quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. Versus like, this is a child who has experienced so much trauma over the last eight years. Mm-hmm. And like, this is just the, the breaking point, so to speak, you know? Yeah. Yeah.'cause I think, I think the way to view this movie, it's one of those things, right? Where it's like those like broke woke bespoke memes where it's like there's different levels. Yeah. There's an iceberg of like, opinions about this movie. And if you start and end at, I don't wanna engage with it, it's triggering Totally fine. Yes. Um, meanwhile you could work up the ladder and be like. The where I'm at on the ladder has gotten to a point where it's like, to me, this movie, it should be shown to cis people as a way of explaining that dysphoria isn't just for trans people. Yes. Because Angela, a AKA Peter is not actually a girl and spends the whole movie trapped. As this form that she's, he's been put into. Yeah, he's very sort of inert for most of the movie. It's not like he's out there like, hey. and so I would say that he's experiencing dysphoria. He's not a girl. He doesn't identify as a girl. Mm-hmm.'cause we see that scene where that crazy monologue with Aunt Martha, which is so iconic, where she's like, yeah, I have a boy already, so I'm not gonna have another one. Angela, I like that name, don't you, Peter? Yeah. Just like assigns it to her. And I, I think that's, that monologue is like, they did not intend it to be this like poignant, but it is so weirdly poignant that really it's just an adult in your life who decides. The entire course of your life. Yeah. By being like you are now this gender uhhuh and you have this name. Yep. And like the whole movie. It's, it's just like a, if you're a cis person and you're forced to dress away or identify in a way that you don't naturally identify with, that's just dysphoria. Yeah. And so the important things are that Angela is not trans. Peter is not trans. Yeah. The aunt is insane. Yes. Also, nobody does this. This is why the movie being so camp is so important because if you go into this movie and think that it's like a fucking scared, straight reefer madness type shit. Mm-hmm. Where it's like the danger of trans people of transgenderism. Yeah. And woke parents. It's like nobody's out here like her. Nobody's out here. Like, no. Like miss things. And the unfortunate thing, a girl outta their kids. Yeah. The unfortunate thing is like. Had it been played straight and not campy like that would've been exactly how conservative people think. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, liberal and like queer people are trying to operate. Mm-hmm. Like we're trying to forcibly trans people. Yeah. And so you're right that that campiness and that eccentricity of Aunt Martha is crucial to that method, uh, that message. Mm-hmm. And it's so interesting because I, I think most people appreciate her performance, but there, you know, there are some people that are like, that acting is so bad and over the top and it's like, no, it has to be. Yeah. It's key to be key. To me it's key.'cause the kids don't need to be playing it up their kids. Exactly. Um, but she ha she sets the tone immediately. Yes. And if she's like a fucking straightforward, I don't know, mis trench bull character. Like you're gonna be like, oh, like it gives, it gives more of a dower tone. Yeah. Like that reviewer was talking about. Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, I saw that and I said, oh, I know exactly what kind of movie this is, what it's gonna be, Uhhuh. Um, and I appreciate that in a movie when they tell you right away. Me too. I don't think they're hiding it. I don't think sleepaway camp is like, what? You didn't think it was like peak art house cinema? Like girl, if you're, if you really think that, they think that. I don't know what to tell you. I mean, even before we get to, aunt Martha with the boating accident, oh my God. That whole sequence in itself is OTT as well over the top, the diva on the back of the boat crying water skiing, just begging them to stop while the two people in the boat are playing Mommy and daddy and like doing the whole like, gender role. Can you drive? Like Yes. Yeah, I wrote that down. That part where she's like. Oh, it's bigger than my dad's like the boat. I was like, oh, we, we are putting our finger in all these pies on purpose right away. Yeah. It's so goofy. It's, and then of course, this horrible accident is the, is the cause of this, this goofy ass teenagers. Yep. It's like, this is gonna be the movie. This is gonna be it. Enjoy. And then the reactions to the death. You have the, the one guy who's just like John and then, and then you have one of my favorite bitches in this movie. This diva just sitting Yes. Screaming Oh my God, somebody. for like, what feels like five minutes. It's so. It doesn't take itself too seriously. No. Right off of the bat, and I love that. You're right. The zoom in and the John is so you can't beat it. Mm-hmm. You can't beat it. Someone purposely made that shot and edited that shot. Well, and here's what else you have. It is, you have two ends of the spectrum. You have a deadpan, just John, and then you have somebody screaming bloody murder at the top of their lungs. the floating child. Floating child. Like across, oh my God. The, the, the life vest bubbling up. Yeah. In the bloody water. I'm like, yes, please. Yes. I'm so ready for this. Yeah. So it, it set up that tone really well. Aunt Martha, crucial to, to the campiness of it all, so to, to speak. And also per performing her own specific gender roles. It's giving like. Coked out. Fifties housewife. It is. Of like, you kids go off to camp. Well, so that mommy can have some alone time. Yes. And clean the house while I'm on speed. And they wouldn't believe I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor. Which she is. That's how, that's how they get their, their like, there's like a little, uh, breadcrumbs that you get throughout the movie that like, when you rewatch it, you're like, oh, okay. Like, they're pointing to, to Angela, like the true nature of Angela's character. And one of them is Aunt Martha just being like, yeah, I forged your physical documents.'cause I'm a doctor. Yeah. And they know that I'm a doctor. They don't know I'm batshit crazy. Yeah. But I'm a doctor. Yeah. And she, she remembered it.'cause she tied string on her fingers. She, I don't know what that has to do with anything. Don't know. She's like, ah. No, I remember she's Yeah, the fucking little remember thing again. There's no way that you see that and you go, oh yes. Yeah, that's, that's completely serious. That's exactly what they're doing. Straight film making. I'm like, girl, they put in, they peppered in all these little things.'cause they were like, well this is funny. Yeah, because the whole idea of it is so goofy. It's like you send kids to camp, kids are already so, I mean, I honestly think that they nail the like age dynamic as well. Oh, oh God. They do like the whole bit of them getting there and him being like, wait till you see Judy Tits. Judy Tits. And then Peter's like, and I love that Peter is so aloof. Wait, are you talking about Peter Paul? Oh, no, Ricky. Ricky. Ricky and Rick. Yeah. Yeah. Ricky and, and Judy. Yeah. It's so rare that you get a character who actually in those older like slasher films, who is so nonplused by the main hot girl. And he's basically like, I don't give a shit about your tits. You're mean, what is, what does he say? Oh God. To her when they're like, alone in the woods, because she did something and he says something to her and he is like, Judy, you're such a bitch or something. It's so like straightforwardly like, and you know what I like about that? She's such a bad person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know what I like about that is like, she does look genuinely hurt after that. She does. Like, that's the one moment of true like humanity. We get out of Judy. Because what to give them their, their flowers in a manner of speaking. Men are also objectified in those movies because they are, they are one brain celled. Organisms mm-hmm. That only have one use Uhhuh and only one thing they wanna do Uhhuh. And so they are treated unfairly in that way as well because they're always made out to be these like feral sex scenes. Just horn dogs. Yeah. Yeah. So the fact that in this we get like different. You know, shades of that, flavors of that. Yeah. Well, and I think another thing that they did, to go back to the, the age, like, uh, di like nailing the age dynamic they used real kids. Yeah. This isn't the imagine that cw, these are like actual 10-year-old kids. Yeah. And what I like too, and I wrote this down like talking about like the horniness of this movie is with slashers, there's almost always an element of horny. But this isn't sleazy horny, nor is it exploitative, horny. This genuinely like in a weird way, is the kind of horny that reminds me of. What horny was like when I was 13. It's coming of age. It's an experienced green mm-hmm. Curious sex motivation. Yeah. Not just like, I just wanna fuck, you know? Yeah. It's coming of age. Yeah. Hitting puberty. No idea what's going on. Uhhuh. Some boys are on one level, other boys are on a different level. You know, clearly Paul is on one level and, he's such an interesting character because he's, he's so promising. He clearly like has gotten some idea of how to be like chivalrous. Yeah. And then quickly his just like pubescent shitty boy brain. Takes over and is like, well, why won't you put out? Yeah. You're just like, Ugh. But then meanwhile you have, You have Ricky who isn't like that. Yeah. And so it's not to say like they're all like that, but it's such a, it feels worse because there was promise there. You thought, oh, maybe he does still have the innocence and the, the genuine that he's well meaning that's good. Chival wrist. Yeah. But yeah, he's one of those kids where it could go either way. Yeah. But I do, and I, I stand by the statement. I've already said it. He is like the nice guy, the guy that is nice because he's expecting to get results Yeah. That he wants. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that's what I don't like about him. Mm-hmm. I'm not a Paul fan. I do like that he like how he. Approaches Angela. Mm-hmm. He's very kind to her. Yeah. And, um, not, not pressuring her, and like that's what prompts her to speak for the first time. But after that, it's just all of these things where I feel like he's testing her boundaries. Yeah. And in a way that is there's no consent and there's no respect for any kind of boundaries that she puts up, you know? Yeah. Like when he kisses her after their first date and he's like, I'm sorry, I hope you don't mind that I did that. Can I have another one? I'm like, then you're clearly not sorry that you did that. Yeah. You just, you're saying that you're sorry because you feel like you, it's socially acceptable for you to apologize for that, but you're hoping that by saying that you're sorry. She's just gonna grant you a pass and you can keep doing what you're doing, you know? Mm-hmm. and what I like though about how they portray Paul is there's a lot of men out there that are like that. Yeah. That are, and it starts young. Exactly. Young. Exactly. And it gives the idea that like it introduces early, that he and Ricky, like maybe if they were closer all the time and not just at camp mm-hmm. He would start to turn out more like Ricky. Yes. Because I think he starts to treat Angela well, because he's following Ricky's lead. Mm-hmm. And then once Ricky is kind of out of the, out of the picture and he's got her around his finger so he thinks mm-hmm. Or alone, then it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. Yeah. And also it is giving also, if she doesn't say no, it's consent. Exactly. Which is like, uh, you know, like we all know how problematic that is. A hundred percent. But also it's just sort of like. Uh, Angela slash Peter doesn't think he can say no. Mm-hmm. Like, well, and it's also like, maybe it's a fight flight, freeze kind of thing. Oh, yeah. Where it's like, you know, I have unfortunately been in situations where, uh, men have treated me that way and I didn't feel like I, I, I froze. Yeah. Yeah. I could not, and I, that's probably why I don't like Paul actually.'cause I'm, I fucking hate that shit. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like sometimes it's just like, you don't feel like you can say no. Mm-hmm. And it truly sucks. Yeah. It truly sucks. So, um, I am, I, I do grieve the promise that Paul brought, but I'm also happy to see that we. Get to see this behavior on screen. And it's very realistic. It is very realistic. And he does die. He gets, he gets, Hey, okay. But arguably he's the most like iconic death. I mean, because he's attached to the moment, oh my God, that scene. This is the moment. Yeah. And yeah, her finally being like, oh, I'll give you what you want. Yeah, you think you want it? Mm-hmm. I'll give you what you think you want. Well, and it's, it's also so funny'cause Angela looks normal and standard is just like, meet me at the lake after the social and it seems fine And then when she gets there with Paul, she looks fucking crazy. Her hair is messed up. Does like, she's clearly not in the right, but Paul is just like. You know, she's like, take off your clothes. And he's just like, oh, it's happening. So he ignores all of the red flags here. Yeah. He doesn't care. Yeah. Which also I think is kind of a, a fun little, um, subversion on the whole She was asking for a thing. Yeah. He was asking for it. And also I feel like if Ricky had been there, he would've clocked that something was wrong. Oh yeah. He would've been like, Angela, you look a mess. Yeah. You know, like affectionately Yeah. You look a mess. What's going on For sure. Um, because he does that and the rest of the movie. Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, Paul doesn't give a fuck. Doesn't give a fuck. He, he, I feel like he doesn't, with the exception of the, the first conversation they have at that first social, Paul does not pick up on any of other, any other of, of Angela's cues. No. At all. No. And then he fucking turns around and makes out with Judy in the, the woods And that's when Ricky is like, you're a bad, bad person, Judy. Yeah. You're a bad, bad person, Judy. Which I just love. It's like, you know, sometimes people just need to be told mm-hmm. You're a bad person. Yeah, yeah. Especially by someone that they have been desperate to get to like them. That's true. But I do, I have a genuine question for you. Mm-hmm. Because I actually, and I do want to talk about Judy for a bit. Yeah. Do you think Judy is a bad person or do you think I, I mean, it might be that, that nice combo of like, uh, victim but also an actor of, you know, it's like the hurt people hurt people kind of thing. Because Yeah. This is such a weird way to say it. You know how they, I'm so excited. This really gives away my entire, like, algorithm in life. Um, in life. You know, they, you ever know how psychiatrists and psychologists will not diagnose. Kids, under a certain age with like psychopathy or sociopathy? No, I did not know that. They don't do that because their brains aren't finished developing. Oh, yeah. And there are so many things that kids do that can be seen as low empathy, sociopathic, psychopathic, because kids are learning to be people and sometimes they're mimicking behavior that they see. Exactly. Or a lot of times they're mimic behavior. And so sometimes that switch hasn't been flipped yet. Yeah. And I kind of think about that with. With characters like this, because I was just, we just watched, Jason takes Manhattan, which I'll, I'll say right up front. Jason does not take Manhattan. Jason takes the ferry. Jason takes the ferry to Manhattan, which he spends a few minutes beating people up there, but he did not take anybody anywhere. Um, and let's not forget that, you know, Manhattan famous for flushing toxic waste through the sewers at midnight every night. You know what? I believe it, I believe I said just dumping it into the East River. I said, oh, we really are doing a toxic narrative now. Okay. Okay. Honestly. But there's a character in that that also is very that way, where it's like she fucking bumps her off the ship and it's like, and her friend is like, what the fuck? But her friend is staying with her because it's clear that her friend is like, well, she likes me. And like, mm-hmm. What if no one else likes me? Like people, unless you not to say there are things that you understand. If you were raised a girl mm-hmm. That you will never, can never understand if you weren't raised a girl. And that's not about, like, you're not being an ally strong enough. Yeah. But it's like. You ju people just don't understand like the, the work that is put into subliminally making you a obedient woman. Mm. And, and there's just all these tiny, tiny little things that are just like peppered in. And so often you see characters in media and Yeah. Often they are overblown to a certain extent. Yeah. Like, I would say Judy. Oh yeah. But it, like, it's not like I didn't grow up with Judy's, you know what I mean? Oh, for sure. It's not like those people don't exist, and Yeah, I don't think, I think at that moment in time, she's a bad person. Agreed. You know what I mean? She, she dis about shit. Yeah. She, yeah. She's, she has mal-intent, all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. She has let the demons win. Yes. And summer camp seems like a horrible place to let all of that toxic negative shit just fester. Mm-hmm. In the wilderness where their parents aren't around unsupervised for most of the part. Yep. Literally feral in the woods. Like literally there's like three counselors that occasionally wander in Yeah. To screen like kids doing, doing okay. All right. Bye. so it's that thing, right. Where it's like I wouldn't give up on her. Yeah. But I do think she's, she needs someone like Ricky to put, to be like, you're a little fucked up right now. Yeah. And you need someone to tell you that. Yeah. Someone, importantly, someone that. You want to like you. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes that's what it takes. Yeah. Is is being knocked down a peg by someone you look up to. Yes. And I think Ricky knows that. Mm-hmm. And it's also like more hard hitting because they used to date. That's true. It's kind of giving this like, oh, oh. Like I, I know why they're not going steady anymore.'cause like, well, and it's also, it's like, I think there's this vi, there's this vibe through the first half of the movie where Judy is not giving Ricky the time of day because she thinks that she's too good for him now. Yeah. And I think in that moment she recognizes it's the other way around. Mm-hmm. She is not good enough for him. Yes. Mm-hmm. And that goes back to something that you pointed out last time where like Judy and Meg both, Are all just gender performance. Yeah. Judy's entire shtick is just like being this hot girl. She wears her shirt with her name over the tits. That is so good. we should all start doing that. But I think it's one of those things where, going back to how we said she's not a girl's girl and that's why she's very much in that pick me state of mind and when you're being a pick me, it does not matter. You come first. Mm-hmm. And that's it. You know? And you know what? To a certain degree I was very much, it'll surprise no one to hear. I was very much not in that camp. I was in the camp of Oh, you're so funny. Yeah. It's'cause I was fat and ugly. Yes. Like you ha So I had to work what I had. Yes. Same if you are hot and you know you're hot, which has no, no effect on like being a good person. No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. If you know that people find you stereotypically attractive. Y she's gonna use it. She's gonna go absolutely. Oh, this is how people receive me. Uhhuh pretty privilege is a thing. Yes, I'm gonna use it. And so she has, and this has value. This is currency yeah's in society. Yeah. That's her way of leveraging away from her vulnerability uhhuh. And like there's something to be said for that. But also we do love, I feel like media is the place where we go to bash hot girls.'cause we can't do it in life. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so like you go to movies and stuff to be like, oh fucking, um, I feel like a great example is uh, what's her name from Fucking Mean Girls? Regina George. Regina George. Yeah. She is the key version of that where everyone wants to be her friend. Mm-hmm. But she's awful. And you love to hate her when you watch it. Yes. And it's just so clear that she's like. She's trying to figure out how to not be vulnerable. Yeah. In a world where being a girl makes you vulnerable. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, so it's interesting that you ask about Judy like that because I do think like on the services it'd be like, oh, fuck her. Exactly. But then, and then especially the way she's killed, let's talk about that because Oh my God, please. This is, this is the kill of the movie everybody. And what's great, what's funny about it, and it works up to, it works up to it. It works up to it. The most impressive part for me is all the other kills. We get wonderful effects. Mm. We have like drowning, we have burns, we have bee stings, all this shit like the shower one. The shower, yeah. With Meg. This one we don't see. Anything. No, it is all implied. It's very nosferatu. Yes, it's very, with, with like the German expressionism. Very, that with like the, the shadow on the walls. Yeah. Um, she gets, uh, first off she gets sucker punched, which that actually makes me feel bad. I hate seeing like, there's women get just, just decks punched. Like, it's so weird being like a horror fan and like lo I love like Tatum and scream. I just fucking love getting, like, I love seeing that bitch get stuck in a garage door and crushed. But if I see a woman getting punched Yeah, that's rough. That for some reason that like really gets to me. Yeah. So seeing Juah get punched immediately, my empathy like shot through the roof. Mm-hmm. And then she gets suffocated. Well she gets a pillow over her face and the, uh, piece to resistance, so to speak. Oh my God. Because she's curling her hair. Mm-hmm. That curling iron while still on. Mm-hmm. It goes somewhere between me down there and the between me down there. Yeah. Baby. Which also has layers. If you wanted to put your tinfoil hat and read all the way into it, you know, the fact that girls don't really do that to other girls, typically they don't punch'em. Oh, yeah. Punching is not the first line of defense. It's like a slap or a hair grab or it's a slap or a scratch or like a something. Hitting them with an object. a lot of that as opposed to just bru, brute force, just punching, punching, knocked to the face. Yeah. So it's kind of like interesting because it's like showing us in that moment that Yeah. Angela isn't really Angela. Um, well, and it's also like, let's go even further on that note. Like the curling iron situation is also something mm-hmm. That. It's, it's assault, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's something that traditionally Yes. A a, a woman or a girl wouldn't do to another girl. Mm, no. Yeah. I actually saw a movie, I won't say what it is, because I don't wanna like spoil it for anybody. And if I say it, it'll spoil it. But, um, there was, uh, a fascinating bit in a movie I saw recently where it was so fucked up, but it was so smart in that horrible way where a woman is like, well, we have to fake an assault.'cause then they'll think a man did it. And you're like, oh, because you just, it's so true because like girls just, you just know even if you hate somebody, you know what that feels like, what that's like, even if it's ever happened to you mm-hmm. You are tapped into that. And so to do that to someone else, you have to. Either really hate them like it's real personal or you're trying to do what a man would do. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's power. It's totally power. And it's like, yeah, it's really interesting. I will say though, in the same vein of like talking about how, Meg and Judy. Are very into like the performative femininity. Mm-hmm. I also believe that Billy and his bunk of boys. Yeah. And I mean, going back into the, the heteronormative, or not hetero, the homoeroticism of it all, there's like a performative masculinity that we see there too. Yeah. Uh, especially in the baseball game. I think we really get to see that. And that's why I don't mind that it's so long because it's like we get to see this like dynamic of, of boys being boys mm-hmm. So to speak. Mm-hmm. and seeing people who are just like naturally comfortable in like who they are, like Gino and Ricky and then these other boys who are very clearly, I think, projecting like Billy and his. Hmm. Bungalow of butt buddies. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. The fact that Ricky doesn't get along with the other guy, a lot of the other guys, you never question that he's a boy for all kinds of purposes. No, no, no, no, no. But he doesn't get along with the other boys who are all serving one kind of boy. Yes. And so it is interesting. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, again, his character continues to be so fascinating to me. Ricky's wonderful because if he wasn't there, it would like make a lot of things, I think less either impactful or like more, as we had said before, mean-spirited. And that way that person said, because it's like, no, no, no, there are good people. Mm-hmm. And you can be loved no matter what. Like, whatever. And like. Who's to say? Maybe Ricky knows that. Yeah. I was wondering, we talked about this on, you know, doing whatever. Yeah. Maybe he does know. We don't know. We don't know. Yeah. Um, but regardless, maybe that's why he's so protective. Evangel. Yeah. You know, like, we don't know. It could work either way that he doesn't know and doesn't, or he does know and doesn't care. Or it may, you know, regardless it shows you can be loved and mm-hmm. You know, respected. Yeah. And have people fight for you. Yeah. Whether, and I think Ricky would do that if he was Peter. If he was just straightforward, be Peter, you know? Yeah. In a world of Judy's and Billies, be a Ricky. You know what I'm saying? Be a Ricky. Be the Ricky to somebody's Peter. Yeah. Slash Angela. I love that. I love that. Be the Ricky to somebody's Peter a true ally. Yes. All right. Eat shit and live, Oh, also, and I can't believe it took us this long to talk about it. The gay dads. Oh my God, yes. Wait. Yes. Out of nowhere in this, this dissociation like daydream that Angela's having, we find out that her father. Was probably gay with that guy who said John, which that makes more sense. It does. Of like a man watching his lover be decapitated. I don't think he was decapitated, he was just not compatible with life. His, his body had absolutely no marks on it when it was floating. He was just face down drifting. It's like when I was like playing dead in the pool to see if anybody cared. Like to see if I'm dead. If you even cared. Exactly. Um, which is crazy because it's like, what is that there for? Is it meant as more of a scare tactic again of like, ooh, the boogeyman of, of gay. You know what I mean? Like what is it? That scene is so interesting. They're just sitting in bed. Like, like touching each other, but it's very weird. It's like this. Yeah. It's just like very awkwardly like my take. And they like look at the camera and then it's like old and then the kids are like giggling and stuff. Yeah. My take is this. I, I think that that wasn't like, uh, a fantasy that Angela made up. I do think that her father was actually gay. Yeah. I do think that her, uh, well, Peter and his sister Yeah. Did see them being intimate in one way or the other. And I think it's one of those things where, because Peter is living as Angela and kissing a another boy. Oh, right. It's like taking her back to seeing her father being gay. Yes. Even though like Angela May or may not be attracted to men, we don't know. Mm-hmm. But I think the only point of reference that she has. To like two boys. Kissing is her father. Right. And then you get the girl and the boy pointing, pointing at each other. Where I love that. Where it's like, I think, what is it? The boy's pointing at the girl. Mm-hmm. I, I don't fully know what that means. I don't know if it means, I, I actually don't know what that means at all. Yeah. It could be a very straightforward, just like, I'm you, I am you, you know, boy, girl, but also like, which one of these people am I? You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, am I, am I am. It's like, am I gay? Am a gay man, am I, am I girl? Like, what am Yeah. Because it is something, you know, you could say the line is so wibbly wobbly and I feel like that's the point of mm-hmm. Angela could have from jump, could have, that's a very light could have from jump and like, no, don't touch me. Don't kiss me. I'm not looking for a boyfriend. Yeah. And like honestly, most people probably, she's already being bullied. Most people would've left her alone for that. Yeah. Like it would've just been, you know, part, she let's ignore her now. Yeah. Yeah. She was already getting bullied even when she was quote unquote with Paul. Yeah. So she doesn't do that. She does get kissed, which the consent of that is very wishy-washy. It's non-existent, but, yeah. Yeah. So, so then it's like he just does it. So then you spend the whole movie being like, how much of this is, is, is her being like, yeah, this might as well happen? Or is there any part of her that's like, maybe this is okay. Or is there any part of her that's like. Well, my dad was with a guy, so then maybe I can be Yeah, it's just, but then there's, because she's so quiet. Yeah. You're led to like, your imagination can kind of branch out. Yeah. Especially since they're so young and they have no idea what's going on. Oh yeah. Maladaptive, daydreaming. Yeah. Yeah. Ma Paul is just like, well, and it's also, you know, um, being now raised as a girl from Aunt Martha, it's like, well, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, I guess. Yeah. I guess I'm supposed to be kissing boys. Mm-hmm. But I saw my dad kissing boys too. So Do we all kiss boys? Well, I don't think so. Yeah. You're a girl. You kiss boys and then she knew enough to be like, okay, meet me down at the lake. Yeah. And he'll know what that means. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's very interesting. I do wish though, um, and this is just a personal preference because I do feel a lot of people. Who are less familiar with, um, queer identities and gender identities and, and all of that stuff. Oftentimes they conflate gender with sexuality. And I think that, unfortunately to me, this scene also kind of does the same thing in retrospect. Mm-hmm. Um, if before, you know, the ending, it doesn't really make sense apart from just like he, he, he, he's gay. Mm-hmm. But I do think that, um, there is a bit of conflation there. But then again, like you said, there's a lot of wibbly, wobbly, ambiguous, nebulous shit going on with Angela specifically. Mm-hmm. In regards to gender and sexuality, because Angela is going through puberty, which is hell. Mm-hmm. and again, I think that's a way for cis people to kind of see it from the other side. Yeah. Of like, oh, this is what it feels like where everyone just assumes that you're one gender, you're one sex, and meanwhile the whole time you're like, this isn't right, something's wrong, something's wrong. Mm-hmm. Um, and sort of that fighting back against that being inherently seen as violent mm-hmm. And wrong and hurtful. Yeah. Like that you are the bad person because you want to deviate. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of the, like the person hitting back, getting in trouble. Yeah, for sure. Retaliating, you know? Yeah. Very that, very that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I said, it's very affirming in a weird, fucked up way It is. Of the queer experience. It's really, yeah. It's, it's so that thing where it's like. It, it oftentimes the things that don't represent us also represent us. Mm-hmm. Like, I've found that so many times. Mm-hmm. Where like, I'll just be like, yes, queen go off. And then meanwhile I'm like, actually there are really, uh, dangerous trope to use against transmission. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's both and and even in, like, even in situations where like it may appear from an outsider, to be messy. Yeah. there's something about queer audiences we love reclaiming messy Oh yeah. Imperfect. Yeah. Aunt Martha is a prime example. Yeah. She is batshit, but she is and she is messy. Mm-hmm. Live for her. Yeah. And I think it's because, I think there's, there, there are two types of things that we can find from queer representation in film. Mm-hmm. I think one is what you're talking about where it's like that affirmation, that validation, uh, whether it be an imperfect representation or not, um, it's just, it's great to see, to see it there. But I also think in the situations where it's not, where it's like the good for her moments, we love because it pushes back against the shackles of society. It pushes against all of the conditioning that we are led to believe. The, the band of people who tend to lean in to that messier side of things, even if it's not necessarily the representation that we want to see, but reclaiming it because it's like, you know what? We have to take what we can get. We have to take what we can get. But it's also like, it pushes a fucking, it pushes against the boundaries. Like you said, nobody's doing this, nobody's doing what Aunt Martha, is doing to, to, to these kids. But there is internally, it, it's like. There's a little bit of joy in the absurdity of that shit. Oh, yes, yes. And there's a little, like, for me, I feel a little maniacal. Mm-hmm. Like a little evil, just like a little Victor Frankenstein about it. Like stick it to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, would I do this in real life? Absolutely not. Yeah. But just be like, you know, like embracing that fantasy. Mm-hmm. And just like that, that crazy messiness of it. Just like all like almost removing the shackles and the reigns completely. Well,'cause we're not allowed to be. Yeah. Because you have to be, if you're a part of any kind of marginalized group. You are suddenly the fucking figurehead. You have to know every talking point. You have to be very well spoken. You have to be able to put up with shit no matter what. And like, you have to be diplomatic. You have to be, um, yes, put bygones, be bygones. Yes. And generally, I'm. Pretty like that anyway, where like almost anybody can ask me almost anything and I'll be whatever. But there are many times where you don't wanna do that and you don't have the choice. Mm-hmm. You're not allowed. And so that's why, you know, I feel like they're afraid to make modern queer and trans villains because understandably already we're pitted as villains. Yeah. And so, even if we say the wrong word, we're it's villainy. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And so it's like, yeah. But at the same time, we wanna see ourselves represented. And so that's, that's why we put ourselves and all these people because it's like we're just people. We're just people. We're just people. Yeah. And it's like, sometimes I just want to see. An absurd, unhinged bitch. Mm-hmm. Not because I want to see it in the world, but for the catharsis of it. Yeah. It's like going to a rage room, you know? Yeah. It's, it's, it feels like indulging a fantasy that you would never want in real life. It just, yeah. It's cathartic. It purges. It's like the end of weapons. Yeah. It's, you think about it in a real life context and you're like, no, but meanwhile it was. So it was one of the most cathartic moments I have had, especially as like a a CS, A survivor, a trauma survivor, like all these things. It was everything. Yes. Because it's something that you can't do, uh, IRL. Mm-hmm. But in the moment, it was like. Ooh, so satisfying. This is so tasty. Yes. And meanwhile it's like gross and like awful. But that's why I think horror movies are good. Yeah. I think they're supposed to be escapists. I think they're supposed to be gross. I think they're supposed to be, and there's something for everybody. If you don't like Gore, that's fine. Yeah. You don't have to watch horror movies. You don't want hereditary. You don't ever have to to punch it. That's fine. That's fine. And the thing is like, and that I feel, I, I know some people who for some reason have, uh, and a moral attachment to their enjoyment of a certain. Media mm-hmm. And how it makes them feel. Mm-hmm. And that's a very complicated thing to unpack. And I am a therapist. I am not. But, I will say that those feelings that may necessarily be viewed as like morally mm-hmm. Abhorrent. Mm-hmm. They're not bad. It's not bad acting on certain feelings Yeah. And causing harm a whole different story. Yeah. But getting that catharsis, like being able to release that steam mm-hmm. Uh, through being able to feel these emotions from that, that the stimulation of this film Yeah. Is wonderful. It does not inherently make you a bad person. The last frame of this movie is the perfect example of it. It's just like the scream mm-hmm. Is just so relatable across the board that guttural just snarl. It's just like I, no one believes me. No one understands me. No one will ever understand me. Um, if they think you're disgusting, be disgusting. Yeah. Just sort of leaning in mm-hmm. The way that we all wish we could. Just like finally like, letting it all out. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for letting me talk about that. Hmm. So we are, now I'm doing something more new stuff. because this is your queer playground for all things scary, sexy, and stupid. Mm-hmm. We're gonna touch into some three wrap up segments, and our first is all about the scary. This is our boo review. Ooh. And I have some questions for you, Bowie. Ooh. For the boo review. My first question is how scary is the big bad of this film? Well, if you're saying, uh, heteronormativity terrifying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I wrote down too. I'm not even keeping you. Oh, I know. How did I know? but if we're going with Angela slash Peter, Again, it depends on who you are as a person. Yeah. Because I don't find her scary at all, because also my ass would be friends with her. I would not be picking on her. Yeah. And so I would not be dying. Yeah. We'd have nothing to worry about. And she could tell me that she was up to that. I'd be like, Ben. Yeah. Like, need some help. Yeah. Good for you. So I would say not, not super, super scary. I don't know. It's funny what I wrote down, I was like, first off, what is the big bad? Yeah. And I was like, if we're talking about Angela and the murders, I think it's more fun than anything else. There is a, a tragedy to it, an inherent like, you know, under sadness that I feel so, but that of course ties to the, the bigger scarier thing, which is that heteronormativity, the conservative gender standards, puberty, other teenagers, like that's all pretty rough on a, on a deep personal level. We, we, we touched on it, I will say the curling iron kill, I'm sorry, but if you've ever had to get a pap smear even that you put your foot, you put your feet up on the stirrups, right? Mm-hmm. And you just feel, it's like your whole being is just out your whole, you're so, your whole, your whole, you're, you're so vulnerable in that moment. So that the idea, the fact that they show very little in that scene, thank you. Is is even scarier. Yeah. Because if I saw the whole thing, I'd be like, that's ridiculous. Yeah. Just the idea of it as like, because you have a point of re Yeah. Any point of reference it's ugh. Yeah. Yeah. Bad. That is scary. So she cooked with that one? Yes. Quite literally. Well, this might answer this next question that I have. What's the, to you, the scariest or most uncomfortable moment? Yeah. The, the, the curling iron is bad. But I think also you'll agree with me is the fucking, any scene with Paul, um, oh, there's that. Yeah. But especially just when you see him kiss her for the first time and, and have that moment of like, oh, I'm sorry I did that. Can I, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take another one. And you feel that like, oh, like you see her tense up Yeah. Total. Like, well, that's, we've lost him. Yeah. Like that was a hope that we've now lost and, you know, you feel for her. So yeah, those moments, were probably kind of like, huh? Yeah. Where you just feel for her. That's fair. For me, uh, it's any of the few moments we had with Jeffrey Epstein. Oh. Like the, I think I'll, I'll put at the top is the, when he takes Angela into the pantry. I fucking, I hate that scene. I swear to God I think I purposely repressed that. Yeah, as you should. It's, it's awful.'cause the fear that grips you, even though it really doesn't go. Like anywhere really? Thank God. Yeah. Just the, the sheer thought of it. Well, even just like the framing and just like seeing him advance on her. Yes. so for me, yeah. That's the scariest moment. Also, the way it's filmed. You do kind of feel like you are in her. Yeah. You're smaller. Uhhuh, he's like really big and tall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see him. Yeah. No, it's, it's very invasive. It's very totally. And then Ricky comes in and is like, fuck you. Yeah. Final question in the boob review mm-hmm. Do you think you could handle being in this movie? When you say that, you mean like one of the campers? Yeah. Let's say you're like a supporting character. Um, unless, but you have the potential of dying. But maybe not unless my, my, my character was different than who I am. IRL. Mm-hmm. I would not be dying. In fact, I might be helping her. Yeah. Used to say. Mm-hmm. Because I, like I said, she really only is hurting the people who are absolutely horrendous to her. Absolutely. So I would either be nice to her or be her friend actively. Yeah. And so I, I wouldn't be dying. I'd be like, same Angela. Mm-hmm. You seen all these? How's it going? People getting got crazy. Judy's such a bitch, isn't she? Yeah. And Angela's just. Mm. I feel like Angela would talk to me. I have good intentions and a pure heart. You just welcome her. You know, you just a little, little treat. Yeah. Put some non-binary kibble in my hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I could probably, I, I think I could deal with this movie, although I will say I would probably be one of the kids that left the mass ex exodus after Billy died.'cause, uh, after one of the, the, the guy bully, uh, gets bees, uh, bees, he gets stung by a bunch of bees, which I initially thought were hornets. I had a, I had to fact check that. I'm like these, I was like, bees stinging him to death. That's not typical. Yeah. This has to be a bunch of hornets or wasps. No, it's bees, which is kind of evil bee propaganda. It really is. Like, we gotta hornets and wasps. Evil. Evil, yeah. Killed them bees. Save the bees, protect them with your life. but yeah, after you know that, that huge swath of children left after he died, I probably would have left too. I'd have been like, mom. Done. Uh, I, I just wanna go take, I miss my Atari. Let play some pong. They wouldn't let me bring my bop it and then I'm No, they fucking let the Mozart was playing this fucking video game on the baseball. That, that, that the boxing video game. That's true. It's so fun seeing what video games look like back then. Like I would've had like the Tetris Yes. Like just constantly locked in. Me and my Tetris. I definitely would've survived this movie. Hell yeah. Angela, you wanna play Tetris? No. Alright. We are now leaving the Boo Review and we're heading into the Horny Hall of Fame. Oh, first question. In the Horny Hall of Fame. Yeah. Certified Thirst Trap. Who's the hottest person in this movie? Baby? Why are you asking me this? We all know it's Gino. No, it's Gino. It's Gino. Oh, sorry. I was gonna say Mel, close second. Not my Meg. Um, not my Meg. Yeah, Gino is. Just, I mean, cream of the Crop. Yeah, cream of the Crop Top actually genuinely cares about the children. He does. So like, besides being just a fucking smoke show, like an absolute babe. He's just a, the bar is on the ground, but he's just genuinely like, we gotta figure out what's happening. These kids. Yeah. And you're like, I would do anything for you. I would do anything. I'm not even kidding. Anything at all. Anything Gino wanted, I would. Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Y'all look at that picture and tell me we're wrong. Yeah, please. So, which death slash scare do you think is the hottest, and, I mean, hottest as in like, the most exciting, sexy, the most Ooh, yeah. I mean like sexy literally, or just like, well, some people, depending on what you're into, the curling iron. Some people might see that and go, oh, oh, that's something I didn't know about me. That's, yeah. Always an option. Well, it's a very sexual death anyway. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it depends. Even though, okay, we're talking about like sexuality, but not necessarily in the like, like it can be dark sexuality. Yeah. I'm definitely going with Paul's death at the end because it is such the like. Like climax ha ha, uh, of, of, of them together naked. Like Paul really thinks that shit's about to happen for him. Yeah. Total wish fulfillment. And then to have that totally turned on its head. Um, and also, you know, we don't know what happened. I doubt that this is what happened. Um, but in, you can imagine a world where also not with children, but a world where like, you know, there, there mid uh, mid cord cotus mm-hmm. And the little death happens. And then you told me, ah, you know, kill them. Kill them for real, like a praying mantis. Exactly, yes. And so it has that kind of vibe of like. Scary sexuality. Yeah. Like a black widow kind of Yeah. Seduce and kill kind of thing. Very that, yeah. So there's something about the, even though, you know, I don't see the children as sexual, of course, bringing them around and you seeing her like cradling him and like, it's very, like, for them and for the, the, the, the puberty of it all. Mm-hmm. It's very like, you know, it feels almost like a wet dream. Yeah. Weirdly, like we're in a someone's wet dream. Well, it's also a little, it's very intimate and romantic too. Yeah. Like the way she's cradling his head is very similar to like how somebody could cradle a partner. Yeah. After they finish doing the deeds. Yeah. Yeah. And she's singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I hear you there. I did write down the curling iron for my choice, but that's an obvious choice and Yeah. I'm obsessed with the curling iron and it's wild. Yeah. It could go, it could go either way. It could go either way. Final question in the Horny Hall of Fame. Yeah. How horny is this movie if you are 13? Pretty horny. Yeah. If you're a closeted teenager, young adult, pretty hor. It's pretty horny. Yeah. If you're an adult, at least for me, because first of all, they're all children. Yeah. You know Exactly. Their children. Yeah. Anyway, even the ones playing kids are, are younger than the Yeah. So there, it's not, to me, it's not horny in that way. Agreed. Yeah. It's, it's horny in that distant way of like, ah, yes. Puberty. Exactly. Exactly. It's not current sexy. It's like a gut. It's it's season one, drag race. Vaseline on the lens. It's like you're ion days. You're in your eighth grade dance for the first time, and everyone's grinding on each other in the cafeteria to ushers. Yeah. Yes. Like that's exactly, yeah. I'm with you there. Exactly. I'm 100% with you there. I'd say it's not sleazy horny, but more pre-pubescent. Horny. It's sexy. Like a eighth grade health class. That's what it exactly, you know what I mean? The first time you hear the word penis, like that kind of thing? Yeah. Like we're gonna put a condom on, I'm on a banana. Is this what the condom's like, I go home, I have to go home. I remember being so excited as a child that I would get to touch a condom and wear deodorant. Where deodorant, it's correct. Oh, alright. We are now leaving the Horny Hall of Fame. Bye. Zip it up, buttercup. We're now going to wrap this up by sipping on some dumb bitch juice. We're in our stupid section, everybody. Yeah. Um, so we've already touched on this. Is this movie Camper Cringe? It's Camp 100% camp always. It is. Mm-hmm. In every sense of the word. It's a camper slasher. It's camp, all camp. Um, love that, love that all camp all the time. We have an award to give out. Uh, we each have an award to give out. Oh my God. The Golden Dumpster Award. Oh my God. what's like the best either stupid decision or the best worst line of dialogue. You have to go first. I'm gonna go first. So, because I gotta, I gotta think like I have an honorable my notes. So honorable mentions for like killer lines of dialogue. Of course we have the, flat as a board and needs a screw. That's a great line. She's a real carpenter's dream. Pils needs a screw. Fuck off. The eat shit and die eat shit and live. That's great. Each Shouldn't die. Ricky each shouldn't live. Bill. Yeah. Bill. He's a little wit. Come on. Everything Aunt Martha says is wonderful, Packed you and your cousin some goodies for the ride up to camp. Wasn't that nice of me? but my favorite, bad line of dialogue. My favorite moment of terrible acting is Mel's monologue after he finds Meg dead in the shower. Did this get back in? I had him. I had him. I let him go. Such a terrible moment in the best possible way. It's so true. So Mel, the 61-year-old that has beef with a 15-year-old gets my golden dumpster. You know what, that's a good, I think, I think he could win the whole thing everything revolving around Mel and Mel, uh, I gotta say that moment with Ricky. Where is it When she's getting thrown into the water at the same time when he's like, confronting Ricky and Ricky's. Like, I have to go. It's literally framed. It's the background. Angela. No. And then Ricky is like shirtless, like about to go to the water. He's like, let me go. I have to go. And Mel not concerned with the, the girl child being thrown screaming into the water. Yeah. Is shaking. This child has beef with a 15-year-old, um, being like, I know it's you. I know you're doing it is so like, it's so mind boggling. It's so fucking like, what are you doing? It's so, it's like, oh, no wonder that camp is going downhill. You have no fucking clue what you're doing. And also, presumably hired a Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein. Um, oh gosh. Yeah, that's probably. Um, that, and also, why the fuck did they go on their little camping trip with the little ones after they knew that people were getting murdered, that people were dying? That is a terrible decision. I was like, whoa. Yeah, let's, let's separate out the little ones. Like, like lambs to the slaughter. Yeah. And just have'em all in one tent where you can get'em all in one place and then the next morning, not even in a tent, be killed. Not even in a tent. Yeah. Out. They were just like, just out splayed out on the, yeah. Oh my God. Can you believe they're all dead? It's like, girl, girl. You left them alone in the woods. Yeah. That was a, like the, the camp counselor that like took the other two snot nose one's back. So the other, yeah. Oh my god. Awful decision. Oh, also I want to give, um, an honorable mention to the cop's mustache, whoever made the decision. Y'all, when you, that thing is lacquered a girl. Okay. When we first see him, his mustache looks so real. And then unfortunately during this third act, it is the fakest mustache I have ever seen. That is my runner up for the golden dumpster. It's like he suddenly had like. Alopecia and lost all the hair on his body. And, and they had to put my just like, oh, continuity. They were like, oh, please. No. You know what mean? Like, it's very strange. And you know what's disappointing is the special effects in this movie are so fucking good. They are. And they, the mustache is where they lost me. That's so wilds like that. I dunno why. It's like you'll fucking watch a HBO like fucking house of the dragon and they'll be doing the craziest CGI you've ever seen. And then Denarius is in like a hard front, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like the weer trash. Yeah, please. Because they're putting all their energy and like money into like the big moments and stuff. But like, we're not paying for a human hair lace front. No. Us. We're making a dragon baby. We gotta make the dragon. Ah. So yeah, you know what? Dumpster fire goes to Mel all around, all around winter. All around winter. Yes. I agree. He should not be running that camp. Nope. I would not trust him with my kids. But no, wait. uh, all that to be said. This is the end of our episode. Oh my God. I think there's literally, I think over. Somewhere between three and four hours of recording footage here. We could talk about this movie forever. I know everybody I know and there's probably things in this movie that we didn't even get the chance to talk about. They'll come up in part two. They'll come up in part two. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so I'm sorry, everybody, if there was a specific moment or character or something you wanted us to talk about, um, there's just so much in, we didn't talk about Mel enough. We didn't talk about Mel enough. Our icon. Mel, I fucking, what's he up to? Well. I mean, not much, I don't think. How dare you? How how very dare you? The look we just exchanged, it was the same look that we just, the realization of like, well, this movie is 50 years old. He didn't look a day over 29. I don't know what you mean. You're right. Yeah. He made it past the 22nd club. He's gonna live forever. Um, but that said, once again, everybody, I'm just gonna say it again. Check out the Patreon, do it. Please do. Yes. Um, I have some fun stuff lined up. Uh, I already have some nice little tidbits in there, some minutes of Bowie and I yap in about shit and some behind the scenes tea. Um, and also I would love to hear from you. Please, uh, feel free to email horror icon, W-H-O-R-O-R icon. At gmail.com. Not the ass l that's the a SL baby Mama. No sign language. Good with my hands and my mouth. So shoot me an email. Not my Meg, not my Meg, not my Meg. Um, shoot me an email. I want to hear from y'all. I would love to hear from y'all and maybe I'll read some of those emails on the, on the episode. Oh. I'm delirious. We've been here for hours. I know. Bowie, where can our listeners find you? same thing as before. I, uh, have social media. That's about it. Um, and that's where you shoot Bowie posts on videos? I post, sometimes on Instagram, but most often on TikTok. Uh, which is, both of those are at knife presenting. and yeah, I do a bunch of silly things. I talk mostly about books and movies and, um, and dragging Ryan Murphy, oh my God. The fact that that went so viral and people are, how does she, so. Chomping at me in the comments like, really the, the die hard, most, most of the people were like, yes, agreed, but there are some die hard. We could, oh, that could be a bonus episode, honestly, is us talking about Ryan. Ryan Murphy is the Tyra Banks of narratives. Like, oh my God, he's, God, he's tremendous. But yeah, people have been in my comments being like, I don't know what's wrong with all of you people. I don't know. Maybe making dahmer like charming, approachable, and charismatic and. S Gasified, ed Geen. Well, you're not a yes by Ed Geen fan. Uh, queen Mothers coming back for season 13 of American Horror. I heard that that paycheck must have been fat. Speaking of, and this is the end of it, this has to be the final season bonus. Bon Bonus things you could talk about. Um, I don't know if you saw the, the Ed Geen thing. I did not. I refuse to. I did not. I don't watch it. Ryan Murphy like no true crime stuff. I saw the Dahmer one. That was a mistake. Yeah. But anyway, um, there is a whole thing that you could talk about. I, I highly, it'll make you angry, but I recommend you look into it. For people who don't know, Osgood Perkins is the son of Anthony Perkins. Yes, he is. Who plays the one and only? Um, Norman Bates. Norman Bates in Psycho, and also gay man mm-hmm. Who was closeted for almost all of his life, His, he had a great relationship with his wife. Osgood says that he was the best dad ever and Osgood. Came for Ryan Murphy. Good. Because Uhoh Ryan put in this crazy, he tried to go like Meadow with it about like the people who were inspired by Ed Geen and put it in their horror movies. So there's a whole bit with Hitchcock in the most clapped makeup. I'm so sorry, but oh my God. Hitchcock casting psycho Uhhuh and basically implies that he cast Anthony for being closeted. And that like he was a creep and that's why he, he was good for the role. Oh, that's fucked up. And Osgood was like, fuck you, actually. Yeah. My dad was a lovely human being. Yeah. And also using that against him is fucked. Yes. Especially as someone who put a lot of homoeroticism in there. Stuff. I was gonna say, I heard the other way around that. That, that Hitchcock probably clocked that Perkin or that, um, yeah, that Perkins was, um, closeted. Mm-hmm. But. Exploited that. Yeah. Because it wasn't from like a creep perspective, it's just like, oh, I can use this. Yeah. He put gay shit like rope. That shit's so gay. Oh, I wanna see rope so bad. Yeah, it's so, so gay. But apparently, yeah, Ryan just made it this whole gross thing and Osgood said, not my dad. You won't. Good. Not my dad. You won't. I, so anyway, sorry for the tangent, but I thought you would, um, appreciate that. Thank you. We stand, uh, the Perkins family in this house, even though me and Osgood Yeah, we have, I mean, he is coming out with another one. We'll see what happens, coming out with another one. So we gotta lock in. Yep. If anything, we'll probably enjoy the first two thirds of it. And you know what? Maybe that's enough. That's a passing grade. Maybe that's enough. If you put the first half of long legs and the first half of the monkey together, you get a great film. A long monkey. I brought my long monkey today. Not monkey legs. No, no, no, no. Monkey legs monkey. The legs. The legs. The legs. Oh, well anyway, you can find me. Cry baby. I deleted my TikTok. I'm no longer on the TikTok. Fuck that noise. No offense. You do great at it. I just don't support that app. Um, yeah, but y'all stay cute with it. I'm only on the Instagram, which really isn't much better. But I need to have something so you can find me at crying in public that's crying without the g underscore IN underscore public'cause that's what do. Mm-hmm. And then follow horror icon, W-H-O-R-R-O-R, icon Pod. Uh, on the Instagram. So I do that. Uh, until next time, cuties, uh, we'll be covering Sleepaway Camp two unhappy campers. Mm-hmm. Uh, so until then, don't be scared unless you're into that sort of thing. Bye bye. Oh, the K-pop part? Yeah. Have you seen K-Pop even Hunters yet? Yes. It's so good.