38: Standing up Against Chicken Patriarchy

In this episode Valerie honors feminist writer Kynthia Taylor and unpacks an excerpt from her essay called "The Trouble with Chicken Patriarchy".  She follows up with thoughts on how as a therapist she sees the damage done to both men and women in the prescribed and deeply embedded gender roles that the church inherited in its 19th century inception and has in many ways expanded upon as the world has evolved in the opposite direction. 

Val breaks down how the roles of provider, protector, and presider creates guilt and shame in some men whose lives do not unfold according this "check list" and how the mixed messages of the church (becoming more flexible in some ways with women's roles but not actually changing anything in the power structure of the church) creates confusion, frustration, and struggle in spiritually developing and socially conscious individuals of both genders.

Transcript

Hey everybody. Welcome to Latter day Struggles, your podcast for unpacking all things spirituality and [00:01:00] psychological wellness in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. This is your host. Valerie, and today I am going to visit with you guys a little bit about a couple of things that I want to just follow up on regarding, well, let me just say this.

[00:01:16] If you didn't listen to last week's podcast, or I guess a couple of days ago, the one that I dropped earlier this week, I've, I've ended the podcast talking about some complex issues around missionary service, and I talked a little bit about. The idea of how missions tend to further engender some of our struggles that we have as an institution with patriarchy, and it really got me thinking actually about.

[00:01:42] an article or sort of an excerpt of an article that I read a little while ago about the topic of patriarchy. And then today in my therapy office, it reared its ugly head again a couple of times. And so what I'm going to do with you is [00:02:00] I'm going to actually kind of follow up on that, deepen that idea with you.

[00:02:05] And I'm going to start actually by reading an excerpt of This little article that I read a little while ago. So if you want to go directly to it yourselves, I found this in the book titled Mormon feminism, essential writings, this particular excerpt, and it is about a page and a half long. So bear with me.

[00:02:26] I'm going to try to be really animated and keep this interesting. So I don't just sound like I'm reading you something. But this is originally written by a woman by the name of yeah. I'm going to say her name wrong. So I apologize in advance. If you ever hear this, Kymthia Taylor. And the topic is, or the title of this is the trouble with chicken patriarchy.

[00:02:48] And of course, when I started reading this a while back, I thought, what is that? What does that even mean? Well, she does a great job explaining this. So here we go. I'm going to talk you through this, or I'm going to read this, and then I'm going to do some of [00:03:00] my own explanation, thoughts, feelings, and some application and kind of offer to you how I see this playing out as a therapist.

[00:03:09] Okay, here we go. The trouble with chicken patriarchy. When it comes to patriarchy, the church is all over the map. Husbands preside, but husbands and wives are equal partners. Boyd K. Packer has said, quote, While the husband and father has responsibilities to provide worthy and inspired leadership, his wife is neither behind him nor ahead of him, but at his side.

[00:03:39] These two are equally yoked side by side, but The husband provides leadership, implying that the wife supplies the followership. Not from a position behind him, but rather at his side. Perhaps they are meant to walk sideways? This all sounds more awkward than a three legged race. [00:04:00] Some rejoice in this doctrinal hodgepodge, reasoning that any of the church's various positions on what patriarchy involves can be selected and advocated for as the quote, official stance.

[00:04:12] With a reasonable stamp of approval from the Magisterium, statements can be pulled willy nilly from a wide array of publications to form the cornerstones to individuals idiosyncratic conceptions of and attempts to implement what the Church teaches about gender and marriage. The trouble, though, is that the Church does not acknowledge its many faces of patriarchy, preaching as though its doctrine on the matter is uniform, Unambiguous, immutable, and universally incumbent on its members.

[00:04:44] Today, a certain wanderlust regarding what patriarchy entails has infected most of the church's discourse on gender, which bops around between the two poles of patriarchy and egalitarianism without any clear distinction. In the [00:05:00] past, the waters were less muddied. Husbands were granted divine authority over their wives, who were required to submit to their righteous leadership.

[00:05:08] An objectionable stance, perhaps, but not an inconsistent one. In the present, the church has adopted a new stance, but without giving up its old one. Now, wives not only submit, but they are also equal partners. It's unclear what this is supposed to look like on the ground, sort of like when dictators hold democratic elections, but then mysteriously win.

[00:05:33] This rather mind boggling situation in which the church simultaneously embraces most of the spectrum on gender roles from traditionalist positions to egalitarianism To egalitarianism is not simply soft patriarchy. Although a recent tendency to soften patriarchal language is one important ingredient of that mix.

[00:05:53] Neither is it traditional patriarchy nor egalitarianism. Chicken [00:06:00] patriarchy never allows itself to be pinned down to one single perspective. Chameleon like, it alters its attitude from day to day, and sometimes even from sentence to sentence. Too chicken to stand up for what it believes. By refusing to settle down to any one place on the map, chicken patriarchs can embrace egalitarianism and still continue to uphold time honored traditions of male authority.

[00:06:29] Unfortunately, chicken patriarchy lacks the moral backbone to repudiate unequivocal and Occasions of patriarchy still observable in our scriptures, ritual, and organizational structures. It can never exorcise the more or less dead ghosts and occasional live demons of women's subordination or expected subordination because it fails to take a consistent stand, emitting, as it does, a storm of mixed signals.

[00:06:58] In the spirit of Elijah, I [00:07:00] wonder, how long halt ye between two opinions? If patriarchy be appropriate, follow it. If it be egalitarianism, follow it. Let me repeat that. If patriarchy be appropriate, follow it. But if egalitarianism, follow it. If patriarchy is God's will, why not stand up and take the flak for advocating values that have been taught from Adam to Paul, from Joseph Smith through most of his heirs, and from the temple to the pulpit?

[00:07:33] If it's not, then why continue to cling to patriarchal language and women's ritual submission to men? End of excerpt. Okay, chicken patriarchy. So if you haven't picked up on what it means by now, let me be completely clear on this. Her point here is that chicken patriarchy It is chicken because it isn't willing to take a stand on one side of [00:08:00] the question or the other it calls itself egalitarian sometimes, while actually consistently abiding by the forms of most traditional patriarchal structures and belief systems.

[00:08:13] So while what her complaint is, amongst others. Is that while on some levels, the church does seem to be moving towards some sense of at least spoken egalitarianism and sometimes even encouraging more of an egalitarian relationship on some levels between men and women, maybe perhaps on some levels. I don't know.

[00:08:35] In the home, for example, I think there has been a move towards more egalitarianism in softening the mandates about the specific roles that women serve in, in the world. It really doesn't actually soften its stance in almost any other way in the formal institution of the church. And so it sends an abundance of mixed signals in In advocating on one level for a softening [00:09:00] of hard patriarchy while on the other hand not doing anything to actually back itself up by changing any kind of policy or official church doctrine.

[00:09:10] So her stance here is that it's chicken. If you believe truly in patriarchy and if you want to really follow what began long, long ago, When patriarchy began to rear its ugly head clear pre Old Testament, and if you really truly believe that this is designed by God, then why are you not standing up for it?

[00:09:32] And if, in fact, you believe that it is not appropriate, and that perhaps it is the product of constructs that have been that began a very, very long time ago, and it's a product of false traditions that began culturally very, very early in the history of humanity. Then follow up by changing your policies, your procedures, your doctrine, and your theology to put your money where your mouth is and acknowledge that while [00:10:00] patriarchy has been a traditional way of living in the world for many, if not most traditions, that you're recognizing that it is in fact not okay and perhaps, well, not perhaps, that it's not okay and never has been And therefore change so that you can put your money where your mouth is and actually live inside of what you believe what we're doing now seems in some ways to be hovering somewhere in the middle.

[00:10:28] On some level, we're saying we're moving forward. We're advancing. On other levels, we're doing nothing of the sort and we're being as absolutely patriarchal as we have always been. So what it does in many ways is it actually is very, very frustrating to those involved in the system who want to see advancement and maybe see enough advancement to be hopeful, but never enough advancement to actually feel that they can trust that the system has an awareness of its own innate blind spots as a part [00:11:00] of the culture in which it lives and has lived.

[00:11:02] Thank you very much. For hundreds of years, and that the system itself was born, the system of the religion was born inside of a culture that was heavily oppressively patriarchal and that it still carries the residue of that system and has not actually become awakened to the fact that it was a product of a lot of Of darkness and lack of understanding, lack of knowledge about how wounding it has been for a very, very long time to the women in the system.

[00:11:34] Incidentally, I don't believe it only hurts the women in the system. I believe it hurts the men and the women of the system. And I want to talk a little bit more that in a second, more about that in a second. So my thoughts. Or my continuing thoughts on this is a couple. First one is I believe that the most important thing that we can do as an institution is, is encourage our own institution to choose a position and stand by it.

[00:11:59] I [00:12:00] believe that what happens when we give lip service to equality Is that sometimes we do more damage because we think that by giving lip service to equality. It's the same as giving equality itself. And this is even worse than standing by our actual position because sometimes the party giving the lip service feels the virtue.

[00:12:21] a claim of equality while not embodying it. So if they say women, you're equal to your man, or we value you and nurture you, and we, we feel all of these things for you because you're equal, if not even superior to the men, which we've also heard which is just another form of actually exercising placating patriarchy it's the, it's the one up power position.

[00:12:42] Behaving as if they're one down by sort of pedestalizing the one down or the marginalized party. But by doing this lip service, they may feel as if they are doing something virtuous while actually doing something that is actually very unkind, um, destructive [00:13:00] and psychologically damaging to both parties.

[00:13:03] So if you're going to choose a position, like she said, I thought that was very interesting. She said, you know, if you really believe in patriarchy, Which she doesn't, but she's saying if you do stand by it, if you don't believe in patriarchy, then do something about it actively in the system to help all parties see that you believe that patriarchy has not been and is not going to be the best for the system or any of the members in it.

[00:13:27] So point number one is choose a position. Okay, as I mentioned before, chicken patriarchy hurts both parties. When we are vague and nebulous about how we actually feel about patriarchy, we we're not only just hurting the women, we're actually hurting both parties, putting either of the genders inside of these sort of prescribed boxes with expectations.

[00:13:55] And boundaries around what their individual and unique potential is is [00:14:00] damaging to both parties as we prescribe specific roles to people independent of their own innate gifts, talents and abilities. And then they internalize those values. Then they set up these measuring sticks about how. What it looks like to be healthy, what it looks like to be successful, what it looks like to be seen as acceptable in the eyes of God and the church and people around them.

[00:14:26] I just experienced this today when I was working with a young gentleman who is an active member of the church and he's really struggling with feeling like a failure. And this is a really upstanding young man. He is he just has a heart of gold. He's very earnest. He's kind. He's spiritually sensitive.

[00:14:50] He's psychologically very, very wise. He's very, very discerning. He's very, very brave in how he is trying to live his life. As a member of the Church of [00:15:00] Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints surrounded by peers who in many ways are not as psychologically evolved as I think he is. And so he's trying to show a lot of patience and love and discernment.

[00:15:12] In trying to sort of be a leader amongst others that are a little bit more orthodox that have stayed or those of his other friends who are not orthodox, often most of them have left the church and so he's in kind of a precarious situation and managing it really well. But what we talked about as we really, as I wanted to learn a little bit more about why he saw himself as behind and as hopeless and as a failure, is that he internalized.

[00:15:43] What it means to be successful

[00:15:49] and the more I listen to what that meant. What that means is. You marry young, you choose a profession that provides [00:16:00] more than adequately for your family, and you have a lot of children. Now he is in his late 20s. He is married, divorced, and single right now, and is employed, but is not employed in a position that feels to him as if it is adequate for what his, the expectations are for him.

[00:16:22] And so because he has not followed the timeline. Of the prescribed gender roles set up for him by his culture, his family, his church, whatever those constructs are, he has created and internalized a measuring stick about what it means to be masculine, what it means to be honorable, what it means to be good enough.

[00:16:44] And he's finding himself coming up sorely wanting. And so I had to really talk to him about how patriarchy has created a wound within him that he is having to [00:17:00] now confront. And what I mean by that is that he sees his value in his productivity and in his role as a provider, presider, and a protector.

[00:17:11] Well, right now, he doesn't have anybody to provide, preside, and protect because his life is different than what the sort of formal instruction manuals have, has prescribed to him as, as far as what someone is supposed to look like when they are, say, for example, I don't know, 28 years old. So he has to look at himself from the perspective of the large picture.

[00:17:34] He has to see himself in some ways sort of globally and recognize that he has constructed a paradigm or he has placed himself inside of a paradigm that has constructed what success looks like and what failure looks like. And he comes up wanting because he is living inside of a system of patriarchy.

[00:17:55] That isn't just a product of, of his training in the church, but it [00:18:00] is certainly a, that, that is certainly a part of the problem. And he says it torments him consistently is that it consistently feels as if he will never catch up. That he will never be what he is supposed to be. And like I said, I'm really working with him on helping him understand that he has on the one hand, he has co opted an idea of what it means to be okay, successful, worthy, lovable, enough.

[00:18:30] And then he's internalized that. And so I have to really help him extricate himself from this conditioning, from the way that he has created his own reality as a product of all of this input from the well meaning, but perhaps destructive and not healthy voices around him that has left him to believe that he is in fact wanting.

[00:18:53] And that is that's a product in many ways. Of a patriarchal system that values a man for their earning power [00:19:00] and for their capacity to be for others, a protector, provider, and a presider. Okay, this also becomes very, very challenging for women, women are getting a lot of mixed signals nowadays.

[00:19:17] It feels as if I think to give the church credit and to certainly give this is our, our world credit. Whereas in just one, one generation ago when I was. And emerging an emerging adult. I did not feel like I, I didn't have the courage or I didn't even know how to imagine myself choosing anything other than stay at home motherhood.

[00:19:42] As I've mentioned before, I am very much the product. of President Benson's mandate for mothers to stay home. And so I didn't ever really ask myself the question about what I, in fact, wanted and how I wanted my own [00:20:00] young adulthood to look like as, as far as motherhood and career went. Interestingly, I may have actually chosen motherhood exclusive motherhood for a period of years while I was raising my small children, but I will never really know what I would have chosen without the mandate or the input and the guilt and shame that I felt that was accompanied by those younger years, because I was so burdened by what I was supposed to do that I never really actually had the courage or the ego structure at that time to even do it.

[00:20:33] Challenge or check in with myself about what I actually in fact wanted to do and I think that's really really important to think about in in ways that patriarchy hurts us because it imposes a mandate on what we are supposed to do and who we are supposed to become and puts our own wants needs and desires as a very deep second.

[00:20:57] If even a second place position [00:21:00] at all, because we just answer to what is expected of us of those authorities on the outside that make those decisions for us, especially if we're really committed to a system and feel a lot of the fear of what will happen if we don't do the thing that the system dictates is what we have to do.

[00:21:19] Or else, so the point that I'm trying to make here is that I don't actually know what I would have done if I was given the gift of my own moral authority, my own personal authority to say to myself, I have all of these options in front of me, what would work the best for me? I will, I'll never know because I did what I thought I was supposed to do.

[00:21:47] I found myself really in struggle. I may have actually struggled in other ways, if I had chosen to do full time motherhood in those early years, but I wouldn't have struggled. Let's put it this way. I may have struggled, [00:22:00] but the struggle would have been my own. I would have taken ownership of it, and it would have been something that I was able to grapple with on my own terms, rather than feeling that I didn't have a choice in the matter.

[00:22:10] Now, you might argue, well, you certainly did have a choice in the matter. You chose that. Nobody forced you to stay home. I agree, on some level. But on other levels there is a very, very powerful Powerful pull towards obeying that authority when we feel like not obeying it is is sort of, could potentially impact eternity for us when we actually feel as if we are trained to not Self discern or or choose or recognize that we can take these questions to God and get those answers ourselves without sort of the intermediary of authority figures at the institutional level when we recognize that we can actually go straight to God and get those answers.

[00:22:53] Then we gain a little bit more self confidence to, to do that process. But when we're actually conditioned to believe that we have [00:23:00] to obey and abide by what the institutional leaders say, and that what we think and feel doesn't matter, then, especially when we're young and vulnerable in those, in those, you know, early years we train ourselves to not actually Listen to and take counsel from our own desires, interests and, and we stop asking those hard questions and we just do what we are told to do.

[00:23:29] So the idea of the, so patriarchy is powerful and I guess I'm talking about how patriarchy used to be, at least maybe during the president Benson days. I don't know. It was less chicken, and it was more explicit in telling us exactly what to do, that we were actually subordinate to our husbands, and we did have a place in the home.

[00:23:51] And now if you fast forward to the 2020s, there's a little bit more liberty for us to sort of pick and choose which [00:24:00] version of patriarchy we want to participate in, but it still makes it very, very challenging Because I think depending on what the influences are around us, we may really hold on to sort of these traditionalist views of women as subordinate, or we may grab on to some of the more progressive views, but we find ourselves in an internal struggle because We're getting conflicting messages and signals.

[00:24:26] So what we need to do ultimately, of course, is make our own choices and recognize that even if the system cannot be clear, it cannot take a stand or won't take a stand and actually just reject patriarchy. That we have to do what we need to do that is right. In fact, for us, let me just talk a little bit to you about how patriarchy, I talked a second about how patriarchy hurts men and really keeps them in a box and how patriarchy [00:25:00] has hurt women by putting, making them a sort of a clear subordinate 20 years ago and how it still is confusing women because of the mixed signals.

[00:25:08] Let me just say a little bit in closing. Thank you. Some amazing words by a great feminist thinker by the name of Gerda Lerner in helping me understand as a woman, and I think this is really important for both women and men to pay attention to as we take a stand and recognize that even though our institution struggles with chicken patriarchy, that we don't In fact, have to, it takes a lot of critical awareness on our part as men and women, disciples of Jesus Christ, and those of us who are trying to in respectful, but like really sort of articulate ways offer to the church a different response, which is, No, patriarchy is wrong.

[00:25:51] We are an institution that is part of a larger world that has suffered from ignorance around issues of patriarchy since [00:26:00] thousands and thousands of years ago. And because we are becoming more educated, we are not going to participate in patriarchy of any kind. And so we have to become more critically aware of the larger systems that have created the ways of thinking that that.

[00:26:17] We're at work when the restoration of the church happened, and that has carried on clear into the 21st century. And so we have to have this awareness and stand up against it and say, No, no, we were the victim of the same things that the rest of the world was a victim of in the 1800s. But we're far beyond that.

[00:26:38] And we have to speak up and say, No, this is not healthy for us, for our families, for our institution, and for us as children of divine parents. Okay, so let me close with these a couple of quotes by Gerda Lerner that might help give you some language around how important it is that we as individuals understand how patriarchy came to be and help us have a little bit more of a critical [00:27:00] understanding, a way of critically thinking about the power that patriarchy has so that we can sort of stand up against it.

[00:27:07] She says this. Women have for millennia participated in the process of their own subordination because they have been psychologically shaped so as to have internalized the idea of their own inferiority. The unawareness of their own history of struggle and achievements has been one of the major means of keeping women subordinate.

[00:27:30] I think this is really important for all of us to I'm closing the quote now, and this is now me talking, it's super important for us to recognize that all of us, men and women, have inadvertently been a part of the creation of patriarchal systems. And so we now, of course, need to be a part of the solution.

[00:27:50] We did not do this wittingly. And really, I think it's even fair to say that this patriarchy developed so insidiously that it's, it's even perhaps fair to say that [00:28:00] if you look back at the history it happened very, very slowly and insidiously. And on some level, maybe even argued that men didn't do it intentionally, but it happened nonetheless.

[00:28:09] And we have to recognize that all of us, including women, participated in our own in subordination, and we have been shaped psychologically to collude in our own in patriarchy. And so we have to really recognize that, like, we can't let this happen. We can't continue to perpetuate this in our own religious institutions.

[00:28:30] Okay, one more quote, also by Gerda Lerner. She says this. The system of patriarchy can function only with the cooperation of women. This cooperation is secured by a variety of means. Gender indoctrination, educational deprivation, the denial of women of knowledge of their history, the dividing of women one from another by defining responsa, by defining [00:29:00] respectability and deviance according to women's sexual activities, by restraints and outright coercion, By discrimination and access to economic resources and political power, and by awarding class privilege to conforming women.

[00:29:18] Okay, I want to just close by really highlighting that last sentence, because I think this is what happens in our church. Is women that are guardians of the patriarchy are very much rewarded. Let me just repeat that because I think it matters. The women that that if, if you value status, if you value respectability in the culture and structure of the church, you will be rewarded by throwing others under the bus and pretending like patriarchy is not really, really problematic in the lives of members of the church women.

[00:29:56] Men, children, and families. So we [00:30:00] have to have the courage to recognize that although for men and women pretending that patriarchy is not a problem is in fact, institutionally rewarded and validating. We have to have the courage to look at that, see it for what it is and recognize that perhaps we don't want to participate in the system of of of experiencing willful blindness and its rewards as something that we are willing to participate in.

[00:30:31] Patriarchy hurts both men and women. Patriarchy is preventing our institution from fulfilling the measure of its own creation. Struggles in patriarchy are part of the problem of why our church is currently in a crisis. and patriarchy and its inability to take a solid stand meaning that it's not doing the chicken patriarchy thing where it's [00:31:00] supporting egalitarianism in name, but not in actual deed.

[00:31:05] It's actually hurting the church because once again, I do believe that Many of us are getting more psychologically and spiritually mature and savvy, and that's a good thing. And we are requiring and asking of our own institution to step up to the plate and take ownership of of some of these ways of behaving that don't feel good to us as constituents.

[00:31:27] We need our church to have an awareness of the mistakes that it's made, take ownership of the mistakes. And recognize that it's possible that because it is part of a culture and therefore has it's entitled to have had blind spots just as any institution has that is embedded in its own, in its own culture, that we may be willing and more able to allow for its imperfections if it as if the institution itself acknowledges its imperfections and does and goes the distance in [00:32:00] improving those things and helping us feel that it is recognizing its own woundedness and its own humanity.

[00:32:06] So let's as a group Recognize what chicken patriarchy is and stand up against it. Okay, you guys, so grateful to have you here. As per usual, I sure love being with you. I really appreciate the emails. I really appreciate the feedback. I'm noticing a lot of you have been kind enough to pause and write a review on iTunes, and I invite you But every last one of you who has benefited from this or is thinking more seriously about your own psychological and spiritual development as a product of my words, my research, my study, my sharing, if you'd be willing to share this podcast, write a review and rate this, I promise you it matters.

[00:32:52] It helps other people find this podcast organically. It also helps instill trust in other people that are going through faith crisis or [00:33:00] trying to make sense of their own complex relationship with the church because they love it. They have memories, they have heritage, they have loyalty, they have a bond with it, but they're also in deep struggle because of what has been made taboo, what is unspoken, what's unacknowledged and unaddressed.

[00:33:16] We're addressing these things here. And I'm hoping to help you on your path towards congruence in your own spiritual development. And if this is helping you, please help others by rating and reviewing. Okay, one last thing that I wanted to say to you guys is this. I have been getting a fair number of letters from many of you, and I've also gotten some requests for individual coaching or therapy.

[00:33:44] I am having a hard time figuring out how to manage this because on the one hand, I just want nothing more than to work individually with many of you. The problem is, as a private practitioner coach, and therapist, I am already full and pretty much overbooked. However, it has occurred to me [00:34:00] that maybe one of the things I could do, and I'm all, I'm willing, To throw this out here to those of you who may be interested in sort of a pilot of a support group where we would meet on zoom once a week.

[00:34:14] This would be a time limited group. I think I would do this. This is going to be a little bit of an organic experiment.

[00:34:23] So, it would be a small group, I'm thinking about a maximum of 16 people, probably a minimum of about 8 to 10 people. I would meet weekly with you, and what I would do is I would bring a topic of conversation to each group and then we would discuss it. I am interested in seeing if there is enough interest out there.

[00:34:50] This would be as a first come first serve. It would because I'm a therapist and this would be during one of my work hours. It would not be free, but I would try to make it [00:35:00] affordable for those of you out there. And so what I'm asking of you is if this is something that interests Please email me at info at Valerie hammacher.

[00:35:10] com in this way, I think I could provide for you some support, but I could also connect some of you to each other to help you find a place for dialogue, a place for processing. a place for working through what you're going through in a community of people who have the heart and the desire for your open, authentic struggles, growths, and just basically your faith development journey.

[00:35:36] And I'd be happy to facilitate that. So let me know if you're interested once again at Info at valeriehamaker. com, V A L E R I E H A M A K E R dot com. And I will see who comes, who's, who responds. How much interest there is, and the first 12 to 16 that respond. I will be in touch with [00:36:00] you just to make sure that we're a good fit.

[00:36:01] And then we will go from there. If this doesn't interest you and you want to just keep listening to the podcast, that is perfectly perfect to me also. I just want to do what I can to be instrumental in helping your growth journey. And this is something that I feel like I actually can do. And I know many of you have requested it.

[00:36:20] So I'm just going to see what I can do and I will maybe just see what happens. Okay you guys, good to be with you. And we'll talk to you next time. Bye bye.