Sponsorship is Not a Donation, It's About Relationships.

Sponsorship is often perceived as a donation, but it is far from it. It’s a marketing and public relations initiative that meets the needs of a business. 

These needs are specific, as in any relationship; each side has its own needs, but they meet in the middle with a common goal —the why. 

Listen as Ted and Camilla talk about sponsorship from a relational perspective. 

Want to send Camilla and Ted a message? Or learn more about them?

Visit FromTheParkBench.ca

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to another discussion from the Park Bench where an artist and an athlete explore a new topic and hope to inspire the communities of arts and sports because we know they matter and play a huge role in shaping our youth and our community. So get comfortable and join us from the Park Bench. Good morning, Kamala.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Good morning. You always say it with like a little bit of a sing to it. You know that?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Well, one of these episodes, I'm going to break out into songs. Yes. Just as you have done.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

But not today.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Okay. I'll wait for it. I can't wait for that

SPEAKER_02 0:34

episode. Neither can my kids. So speaking of my kids, so actually this is a big time for them because they've both just graduated. So my daughter is going to be going into high school next year. She's pretty excited. That is exciting. And my son's going to university. So it's a big year for Yeah, for the family to just see them sort of go from one big spot to another. So

SPEAKER_01 0:56

yes,

SPEAKER_02 0:57

it's pretty exciting and a little bit not scary, but it's, you know, as a parent, it's like, boy, the time goes by fast, right? It's just one of those reminders. But yeah, and you see your kids less. So it's also a sad day for dad. But yeah, but no, it's good. I mean, they're... It's not about you. Just so you know. Most things are, but no, they're very pumped. So it was a fun time seeing them both graduate and... I'm very proud of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

So I, that is a super cool thing. And it's, it's good and bad that they're at the same time because our kids are the same age, like difference. And so my son was graduating grade 12 and my daughter was graduating grade eight. And then the flip side, you know, like, uh, you know, there's not so much, but there's cost involved. Right. Like, and, and the cost keeps going up. Like all of a sudden there's these expectations for gifts. And as like my, my friend got this, gift and that gift and like they got a I don't even a car I didn't get a car but like a watch or something I'm like what I don't know here's a card

SPEAKER_02 1:59

yeah

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I don't know the rules you know I

SPEAKER_02 2:02

know I know and my daughter great I mean so she has a dress well she looked beautiful in the dress yeah but and I think she'll wear it again but it's amazing the just the amount of money you have to spend just on the prep for it because all the girls have to look their best which I don't disagree with like I want to support

SPEAKER_01 2:20

So think that for grade 8. Now amplify that by 20 when she's in grade 12.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

She listens to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

I got your back, girl. And anything you need for justification on the cost, well, to somewhat. With my daughter for grade 12, I was like, I can do your makeup. I can do your hair. I'll DIY. She's like, you're not doing my hair. You're not doing my makeup. I want this to be... And I was like, it's almost like your wedding day. Like what's going to happen then? You know, can we do DIY then? Can we like pin this DIY? No, I know, but it is, it's exciting. And you know, sometimes I do get sad, but I'm not sad because like what an adventure. It's just another chapter in their life. And it's just so exciting, you know, for your son going off to university and then for your daughter going into this new school, new people, like you're in high school, you know, it's just amazing. amazing. It's exciting. It's exciting.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

It's fun for them. It's fun.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

It is.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

So today we are sponsorship. So today we have our first guest.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Oh, my God. Who is I bet he's good.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I'm assuming it's you. Oh,

SPEAKER_02 3:36

then you're welcome, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

You're wearing two hats today. Yes. So I'm going to be interviewing Ted. And why you ask? Because the episode is about sponsorship. And Ted actually owns a company that is in the sponsorship space. Yes. So we're excited to have you, Ted. Welcome. Well,

SPEAKER_02 3:56

it's happy. I'm happy to be

SPEAKER_01 3:58

here. Yeah, we're happy to have you. We're happy to have you and it is happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

See, I do make mistakes sometimes too. Of course. It's not just you.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, that's true. Thank you. Yeah. We have that recorded. So, just, well, thank you for coming. And so, you know, just to start things off so the listeners may not know, tell us a little bit about Kidspired.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, so So the premise behind it is to provide support to minor sport organizations with their sponsorship. So sponsorship is something that people tend not to want to do. No one wants to be the person that's told to sell something. And there's so much baked into that in terms of value for clubs. And I come from that space, so I know people in that space. I kind of understand the world, so I know what their challenges are. So that's kind of how we started it. wanted to put as much money and value back into minor sports to prop it up I think I referenced it loosely a couple of episodes ago it really is more of my why like I just really want to have an impact and as we said last time or a couple times ago I'm not going to play in the NHL but it is a way where you really get to be a part of the solution for kids and just add more so

SPEAKER_01 5:14

is that what you were thinking when you started the business because it's been you started it 2017 and that's when you were thinking like because it's literally your business you started it and that's what you were thinking yeah

SPEAKER_02 5:24

yeah yeah yeah I just wanted to do I enjoyed my jobs previously but I wanted to do something that really had meaning to me and yeah that's why I started actually my it was inspired by my dad because he despite the fact that we didn't have a lot of money growing up he always found a way to help kids access their support pay for their registration fees or whatever he did so that really and he was just very much into sports so it really is in a lot of ways for my dad that I thought I want to have something that means something so yeah that's the heart behind it and you know we have a small but mighty team and we all kind of come from the same space where we want to make an impact and you kind of need that because when you're doing this on the club side you have to kind of want to be there and want to do it so while selling you know is not and we'll get into it I'm sure but selling is not what people like to do you don't want to do it but for us it's not selling we're supporting minor sport and we're finding a way to connect businesses in a meaningful way to their community for sure and that's how we view it but

SPEAKER_01 6:30

yeah yeah no well I do want to talk about sales and marketing because for me that really that's how I view sponsorship so my experience with sponsorship is from the marketing side of things is being that business that's been asked to be a part of an event right so or I could also So in working for some of the non-for-profits, I went out and I was looking for sponsors. So I've kind of worn both hats and the way to be that marketing person to create the deck and to go out and do that pitch. And then also to be that business where if it's like a musical event and they're coming to brands and different businesses to be there for different reasons. But I look at it, you know, this is my relationship coach hat on again. It is a relationship. Do you view it as a relationship?

SPEAKER_02 7:20

With sponsors? So what we try to do is maximize that impact because sponsorship is really, it's relationships with your community, but it's also marketing. It's a way to connect in a meaningful way. So we try and get sponsorship away from donation, which is wonderful too. And everybody should donate, right? But if we can baked into what they might perceive as a donation, make it something that actually has value, actually puts them in a space where, you know, they're top of mind or there's a branding message they can put out there in a really warm way. I think that's how sports sponsorship really helps local business.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

So there's a couple of things there and I want to get into that kind of business kind of ROI part of it, but going back to the relationship, the thing, no, no, no, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Answer the question,

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Ted. The thing about it is, is that you're right. It is about relationships and it's about needs because even in a relationship, you have two people and you have two people that are in this relationship for different needs and understanding each other's needs really helps the relationships thrive. And then you have that space in between these two entities or people that are looking to be in relationships. So from a business perspective, what is their need? What are they looking to get out of the sponsorship? And I think that has to happen from both sides, from the business, from the club, and also, you know, there's this kind of trifecta, there's because there is kids fired because they are that bridge or in a way almost like a bit of a matchmaker. Well, you are because a matchmaker in the way that you know both sides. You can speak the language of sport. You know what the club's needs are because you have a relationship with them. And you know what that business is. You know what they're about, what their needs are because you have a relationship with them. And you're connecting the two like a matchmaker would because a matchmaker understands your past relationships what's worked what's didn't from a business standpoint what's worked what's didn't for them right so you're like okay I get that I see what you're looking for okay and the club what's important to you what are you looking for from a sponsor perspective because you don't want to match two people up that aren't a good match that's not a good relationship so you are that bridge but that matchmaker and you are creating these relationships with the two of them to then impact both of them are impacting the community. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 10:22

yeah, absolutely. There's a lot there, but you're 100% right. There has to be a connection. And I think from, so Kidspire sees itself really as an extension of our club partners because we do understand and know the space. Not that we know everything about clubs, but we certainly can represent them properly and we can explain kind of what we do or what clubs can do for these sponsor partners. So it's really putting those two together.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Well, it is an interesting niche because in the minor sports world, again, I'm an artist. I am not an athlete. So there is a lot going on within these organizations. They are non-for-profit, right? Yeah, 99%. And then they deal with volunteers. They have a board. They have budgets. They have staff coming in and out. They have kids. There's a lot going on. So understanding that dynamic and that space, I think is really important, not just speaking the language, but understanding what's happening within that club. So knowing that and knowing what it's like to sell. So from your sales side of things, because you know how to sell a sponsorship and what that business is thinking, you really are the experts in that field.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah. I mean, it's what we do every day. so we continue to learn from sponsors and clubs for sure and the biggest part initially for us was education for I guess both clubs and sponsors in that sponsorship has from my perspective largely been seen as a donation people are asking for support for their group which is fine but you know you want to be able to say to a sponsor you have access to so many families and so many people it's really a marketing opportunity and And being able to, and we don't just work with one club, we work with multiple clubs. So from a sponsor's perspective, they get to access the entire audience, which is really community.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Who views it as a donation? Is it the club or the sponsor or both?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

You know, clubs are getting better for sure. And there's some clubs that do an amazing job at this, right? In the way that we think about it too. But I just think it's kind of how it's viewed because when you look at, so a club will reach out for sponsors. Most will try to do that. But even from a team level, so, you know, you're the manager of a team and someone said, Kamala, we need sponsors, go get them, right? Yeah. So you're going out and you're just asking like, hey, Joe, you own a pizza place. Would you, we need 500 bucks. What can we, so there's not really, it's not that you wouldn't know what to say. You just don't know what to say. So you're asking really more for, could you give us, you know, be a good guy and give us, we'll put your logo somewhere or whatever. So I think, I think it's just not really understanding the space and it takes some level of expertise, but you get really lucky. Like at a club, you might have someone who's a volunteer that will sell your sponsorship for you and they do an amazing job. The challenge is they're not volunteering forever, usually. And so when they go, you have a void again. So what Kidspire does is we drop into that space. Everything we do is to try and generate revenue for clubs or do things like our Player of the Game Awards, which adds value for the kids in the sport. So we're just trying to generate revenue or give them things that make the sport experience better. So we're coming from the right place. And we're out there talking to businesses of all sizes. But because we're doing this, we do it across the country, but we're mostly in Ontario. We might find a sponsor through a relationship with somebody in Burlington and we're sitting here in Ottawa and it benefits the Ottawa clubs because they wouldn't have anybody out there. So it's just our reach is important too. And we just get better at this every day. But to get to your point about I guess under the value for a sponsor, it is, that's the biggest part of the relationship is trying to understand what they want and not just simply slap a logo. Some sponsors just want to have the logo there. They just want to support the

SPEAKER_01 14:33

community. Well, that comes back to needs, right? And understanding the needs in the relationship. So I wanted to touch on one thing before we get into like from the business standpoint and like that ROI is you mentioned, you know, the team going out to get funding. Yeah. But I see that as a fundraiser. It is. You know, so there's no reason you talk about relationships, there's no reason that within that space, you can have sponsorship and you can have fundraising because like the relationships between those two, they can exist in the same space. It's a very different thing, but it's, it's still there. It is.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

It is. I mean, it's, it's more on our side. Those two things are different, but they're often said as being the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

But a team. So when you look at a club, I think understands more what sponsorship is. Teams are, Individual teams are looking for, they are kind of fundraising and they'll do, and some are really good. But when I, if there are little, or if there are teams listening or team managers, what I would highly recommend is talk to the people that are on your team, whoever owns a business, because they're much more likely to say, hey, I'm going to support my kids team. I'll give you a thousand dollars instead of$500. Well, yeah. Because they're more invested.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Well, they're more invested. Well, that's like thinking of back in Girl Guides, right? I mean, when you brought home that box of cookies. Right. Where did you go first? First you took it to the office, right? And then everybody hopefully would buy it there. Exactly. And then you took it to your neighbors or your family and then the girls, well, they don't go so much door to door, but oh, I had this, we create, well, I created my brilliant creative mind, came up with a girl guide vending machine where we created this box. And so you want to have, you come up with creative ways, right? To do, because here's some cookies. Everybody knows the girl guides cookies, but let's make the experience. So there was a bit of an experience to it. So we had this vending machine. It was a huge furnace box that we painted and the girls would be inside and they would put the money in through the slot and the box would come out. It was so much fun. But that's the same thing is that you kind of look to the people around you, right? Because your child is in that and then people that you know that know that the child is excited and it's something that's important to them. So it's kind of connected that way.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

And that is more of a donation request, truly. Because what we try and do and you kind of mentioned this earlier, is look at the value. What is the value for the sponsor? Because they will come back year after year, hopefully, if they say, you know what, I'm getting something from this. It's not specifically ROI, it could be that, but that they understand the connection to the community is real, right? And sort of, but from a single team perspective, you can do that too. And we can, I mean, this is probably a separate episode, but in terms of how you show the value to a sponsor. But I would start with your team parents first because they are going to care less about value and more about the team so you're more likely to get meet your fundraising goals by just going to parents yeah instead of knocking on doors which is harder to do too right

SPEAKER_01 17:32

yeah well okay so well let's get into the um the value or or the actual roi or from a business standpoint what a business looks at um when a business talks about sponsorship what do they think and i i'm like for from, you know, as a relationship coach, I'm really good at being, you know, kind of that mediator. And I'm in between kidspired and the business, right? And kind of like looking at both perspectives. So from a business standpoint, it's funny because sponsorship is relationships. And we talked about that. Like it's a relationship between the business, the sponsor and the club and to the communities. So it's all about relationship. How do you put that on a relationship because, okay, I'm a business and I'm putting my money into a marketing effort, a digital campaign, right? There's needs there. What do I want? What I measure value at? What I measure success at with that digital campaign and my ROI, it's all data, right? It's all analytics. I'm looking at the numbers and I see the click-through rate and it's literally analytical, right? So they're hard facts, ROI. You can't fudge it, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. And I think,

SPEAKER_02 19:37

as I said, I think earlier, education is a big part of this because local businesses will have those team managers that come in that are, as I've just said, they should go out and knock on the door and they're just asking for help.$500 without any value necessarily. And they're essentially asking for a donation. So that's what they get the door knocks, you know, regularly. So we're trying to explain to them just what you said, that sponsorship in the right way is a real connection. And when you purchase a sponsorship program based on whatever your goals are, you know, if you, we have a thing called the player of the game award, right? So every child that plays sport pretty much in the communities that we're in will receive a player of the game award. And the sponsor or give something for free to that kid because the kid has just been rewarded. You are the player of the game, right? So there's an emotional connection to that. And the child says, dad, I want to get my ice cream. And so they're advocating for that, you know, to go to redeem and get their free ice cream. And dad will probably buy an ice cream too. So there's some business in it for them, but they want their reward. And the truth is like when you're there, how often do you have a marketing campaign that has that level of emotion baked

SPEAKER_01 20:49

into it? Connection, yeah. That connection. Emotional connection. It does. Yeah, for

SPEAKER_02 20:52

sure. It does. So that's one example for the player of the game, but.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Well, that's kind of the same thing when I'm talking about the digital campaign. Like you can't actually, like when it's a digital ad, you don't have that connection. You don't. Where you are, you have that physical connection and emotional to not only the player, but the club, but the whole story of it. Really all those touch points come from that true relationship standpoint. It's it's actually it's pretty incredible I mean I'm not like this is not a you know a conspired selling thing but I'm just thinking of it in that perspective like looking at that storyline it's pretty great like it's like it's true connection it's true community connection and it's hard to put a value on that that goes back to the needs right in a relationship when there's two when there's two entities there's two people being a part of it what are you looking for out of that relationship if I expect Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. wanting that long commitment, I would think.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah, I think so. And it's the education part of this is for people that may not be in sport or they're not a part of that community. They don't maybe understand the impact this can make. The people that get it, when we're talking to businesses, they get it. They understand. And it's just a matter of figuring out, as you say, how do you want to connect? What do you want to do? And someone like Tim Hortons has been in this for years and they put millions

SPEAKER_01 23:18

of dollars in. Tim bits soccer. I I mean, who doesn't know that? I mean, that's just.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah. And so they understand the value. Of course, it's good for their business and kids want to get their Timbits. So it all makes sense. Yeah. But they commit a significant amount of money every year. Dedicated for that. For sure. And I think they're in it for the long haul. Yes, for sure. And other businesses are too. But yeah, it's definitely, I mean, ROI is always part of the mix in some respect. Because it is business.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It is. You know, like there is that saying, it's not personal, it's business. Yeah, yeah. But. And so we're talking about real emotions and relationships, but there is a business quality. But I think it's that mixture of both. It is a little personal because even when a sponsor wants...

SPEAKER_02 24:01

It's a lot personal, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Because I'm sure that sponsor has a story of their own. Maybe they wanted to be on a team. Maybe their kid is on that team. I've talked to

SPEAKER_02 24:10

people that have said, I've always wanted to sponsor a team. So it's 100%. They have the emotion baked in. And it's funny, I think about, I know who one of my first sponsors were when I was 10 11 years old, dotted and cedar flooring, you know, it just sticks with you. Right. So there really is a stick to this with sponsorship that doesn't maybe pay right away. Right. But, but it's, you know, it's

SPEAKER_01 24:32

actually, you know, it's our experiences because although I don't have the sports experience, I have the Girl Guide experience. Right. So when I see someone, when I see Girl Guide selling a box of cookies, I'm going to buy it. Of course. Right. Of course I get, because I have a connection to that. And I think that sponsors have, there is some sort of emotional, personal experience that they have that connection to that they're also like thinking about and it's part of their why.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

And the marketing is real too. So like the, whether it's a logo on the jersey, there's only so many spaces that are available, right? So, and there's thousands of businesses. So having a space there is important. And it's funny, one of the guys that used to work with us, a great guy, he would say, his name is John, Johnny Mac. So he would say, people go where they're invited, right? So I thought, brilliant, right? Because with that player of the game card, even if they don't use your thing, your offer, which is usually free because it's player of the game, it doesn't mean that it didn't work. It just meant that they couldn't do it because they go where they're invited. So there's, oh, darn, I didn't get to use that

SPEAKER_01 25:38

thing. What do you mean? Go where you're invited? Like you've been invited to go to this ice cream shop. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

So what we're saying is invite them in. Like be a part of this community and say, we care. You know, and sponsors are sorry. Parents want to support the sponsors that support their kids. It's just natural. Right. So, but the player of the game is very specific where.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

So come on in and come on in and make, make the

SPEAKER_02 26:02

ask. Why don't you come on and have an ice cream on me to reward your child. And maybe while you're here, if you like the ice cream, you'll buy one too. I mean, it's just really basic community

SPEAKER_01 26:10

stuff. It's just, it is community and it is just connecting each other in, in a different way. And, you know, I know I'm putting like a bit of a, Like a kumbaya spin to it. But at the same time, because it is business and you have a business and they have a business. And even the organization, although it's not for profit, it is a business structure. They are businesses. They're 100% businesses. They have budgets. They

SPEAKER_02 26:38

should function that way too.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Well, yeah, exactly. So although this is a wonderful relationship, at the same time, there is a reality and there is bills and invoicing. Yeah. and real costs involved. So that's not to be ignored. And I think if you're just conscious of it, I think it's just a wonderful relationship builder. You are a matchmaker. Can I change the

SPEAKER_02 27:04

name? I'll change my title to matchmaker.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And I think there's so much more. I'm hoping that people, because it's hard when you're told to be the person that has to do sponsorship. We've all kind of been there. So I would love to talk more about this know in a future episode just to help these the folks that are at clubs and organizations yeah just to understand what to do how to do it there's more here but uh but yeah it's definitely there's a lot of opportunity

SPEAKER_01 27:31

well we could have a sponsor and a club on yeah that would be great no exactly you know and and to and to have those two point of views and then we could then you would be the matchmaker at that point uh no we would kind of talk about the two different point of views you know and yes exactly And both are wise. That would be a great

SPEAKER_02 27:52

episode.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I think so too. Well, it's all about relationships.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Well, I'm a relationship coach. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

No, you're

SPEAKER_02 28:01

not.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Exactly. So we would love to hear from you. If you're a sponsor, if you're a club, what you thought of the podcast, follow us. We're on Spotify. We're on Apple. And go to the website. Leave us a message there from theparkbench.ca. We really want to hear from you and we We want to thank Matt today for joining in. Thank you, Matt. Thank you. What'd you think? Have you ever been a part? So which relationship hat would you wear? The sponsor, the business, the club?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Oh, that's a good question. Um, I mean, as, as Bart Mart Audio, you know, we're, you know, we're interested in, in being a sponsor for sure. Like being more part of the community is always important. That's

SPEAKER_01 28:45

true. That's true. You would take on that. Yeah. That, that business role and being part of the community and making an impact.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah. Yeah. I also actually had a question for Ted.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Oh, wonderful. First question.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Well,

SPEAKER_02 28:56

I'm a guest.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

So I've noticed that, you know, these days people are a lot more choosy with where they're spending their money. They only want to support businesses that kind of align with their values. And so I was wondering like how has kind of technology, social media, how is that affecting the kind of sponsorship game?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Good one. Well, the thing about sponsorship is that it sort of remains old school. Like obviously we're trying to take it to the next level and do different things and we're doing that. But it's one of those things that is not that the other components are not important but it really is the grassroots opportunity to connect right to community whether you go to an event like Kamala mentioned you get to talk to people directly or our player of the game awards like we have a digital component with our partners at fansaves shout out to them but the player of the game is a printed card so it's old school they take it out and they redeem so it's It's a good question. And so we're trying to be on the leading edge of that stuff. But the cool thing about this is, and it's, you know, you can literally hold on to it and a sponsor says, yeah, I get that. Because I think in some ways we're so inundated with digital that to have that piece of paper in your hand, they're just like, feels good. It feels good to do something where I can count the coupons when they come in. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

And can I, newsflash, I have an opinion. I just want to chime into that. I have something to say to that too. Sure, sure, sure. So from a marketing perspective, because marketing has changed, Like over the years, like you look at the marketing space and there's so much digital. But at the end of the day, what is social media? It's referral, right? Because when you, let's say you're looking for a good mechanic. This is always a perfect example. Hey, do you know a good mechanic? Who do you ask? You ask your circle of friends. You ask your neighbor and you say, hey, do you know a good mechanic? Yeah, I know a good mechanic. It's like Joe down the street. He's fantastic. Okay, great. I'll take Joe. That's kind of what social media is, is that if somebody chimes in and says, I use them. I love these guys. And it's somebody, you know, it's somebody you trust. Then you're like, oh, they use them. They like them. So we're

SPEAKER_02 31:06

like on the influence side, not influencer,

SPEAKER_01 31:08

but it's more of a referral. It's like looking when, when you don't know, you look to others. It's kind of following. I don't want to say following the sheep, but it's like, where does everybody else go? What does everybody else like? So to, for, for social media, it has that bit of, of referral and it is old school. At the end of the day, marketing is just referral, looking for someone and just asking around and looking. Like as you're scrolling, you're being introduced to different things. You're looking at different things. So I think looking at it from that perspective too, it's still, there is a bit of old school underneath. It's just technology has changed, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Did that answer

SPEAKER_01 31:48

your question? Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. There you go. Thank you, Matt, for chiming in. Yeah, I appreciate it. And thank you, Ted, as always.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Kamala, thank you for your wonderful interview today.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Oh, yes. You were a great guest. Oh,

SPEAKER_02 32:02

yeah. That's what I was going for. So

SPEAKER_01 32:04

thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. And thank you everyone else for listening. We'll chat soon from the park bench.