Follow up on Lindsay Hubbard from "Summer House"

We decided to revisit Summer House's Lindsay Hubbard's journey now that her breakup with Carl has played out in the show's finale, and we've seen the intense two-part reunion. In this episode, we dive into the passionate reactions from Bravo fans, Andy Cohen's defense of the show's production, and the growing concerns about misogyny in Bravo programming. We'll also break down the origins and true meaning of "gaslighting" and examine the so-called "four horsemen" that often signal the end of a relationship—where did Carl and Lindsay go wrong? Finally, we tackle the big question: Is reality TV healthy for relationships? Tune in for this controversial and thought-provoking episode now!

Chapters

• 8:44 Recap
• 12:07 Andy calling out Lindsay's job
• 21:35 Carl being worried about how he's seen
• 27:22 Lindsay's alcohol use
• 33:15 Four horseman of a relationship apocalypse
• 39:56 Andy standing up for production
• 46:37 Choosing sides
• 52:43 Misogyny on Bravo
• 1:01:03 Scandoval influencing Summer house
• 1:06:15 Is reality bad for relationships?

Transcript

Hi, guys. We're back on Unhinged on camera. I'm Jenny, the resident reality show producer, and I'm here at Sam, the resident therapist, to break it all down here. So we decided to take a break from breaking down individual characters from Bravo to do a follow up to our first episode, which we thought the longest on because we've always been intrigued by Lindsey Hubbard, so we only felt it was fair after the breakup aired on camera with Carl, and then we saw the reunion to go into and then obviously the fan bases Very hot right now. And this, too, I think, given the overall response in the Bravo sphere to this, it feels really important to like kind of come back and look at Lindsay, look at this breakup, look at, I think, some of the things that are really interesting and coming up for me were around like relationships on TV where I think a big thing we talked about in our first episode with Lindsay was like, what? Where reality TV could allow you to take deeper levels of accountability for yourself and break patterns and how that's like not not what's playing out here at all. Yeah. So quick recap. Lindsay and Karl met on the show. They were friends. And then they got together, got engaged and then broke up on camera on this very highly discussed on camera conversation, which honestly felt like there had been like ten conversations before. But Lindsay then went to PR mode and sort of said she was blindsided. So there was a lot of talk before the show even aired. And then when the show aired, a lot of dissenting opinions, but we finally saw it all. And then at the reunion, I think andI kind of came for Lindsay on a lot of these issues, which honestly, she hadn't. I felt she needed to answer for. But we'll get into that. And Karl did sort of, you know, I guess take ownership of his stuff. And there was also a lot of after show stuff going on, which was fascinating. So we really got the whole relationship. The demise of the relationship played out as much on camera as we've seen in a long time. Also, we'll get into this by, you know, a lot going on with VP PR airing at the same time after Scandal Ball. What I find ironic is sort of everyone was saying to Sandoval, if you weren't happy in your relationship with Arianna, why didn't you just sit her down and have a real conversation and end things instead of going and having an affair? Now we have Karl who basically did do that with Lindsay, and he's also being burned at the stake villa. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it's like and not only that, then we have the double edge of like when people hide their real lives from the reality, really what they're going through, the decisions they want to make. When someone like Kyle from Beverly Hills doesn't show the breakup of her marriage on TV, we're all like, What the fuck? Why didn't you show any of that to us? Why don't we get to see these different? Why do we have to wait for buying Beverly Hills to see the break? Like for this breakdown to be talked about and for us to see the interactions between you two and so. So Karl is showing up and doing his job as a reality star and saying, okay, I'm going to like show the the real life of what's going on and what it's like to make a decision like this. And it's people want to simplify it and make it that, like, he must have gone in with this intention to, like, make her look bad. And I think it's so and all of this is so much more nuanced than I feel like the fan base is allowing room for. And maybe it's because people are uncomfortable with nuance because it like reflects things in their own lives that they don't want to look at. And this is like becoming like a core problem with reality, like fan base. Then all the podcasts I listen to, like they really want to take a stand and be like, This is who is right and this is who is wrong. And I think where it comes off of Sandoval is like, that was very clear where it's like he was in the wrong. There's no there's not a whole lot of nuance there. There's like you were you did a really bad thing. And I don't think that it's the same archetype here. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like with Sandoval and Arianna, one of the criticisms, especially lodged by La LA is like, well, you didn't really share your real relationship and you should have. And, you know, Karl Lindsay kind of didn't last season and they were also hammered for it. So, I mean, and I honestly felt like it just was so reactive between both of them that they couldn't even hide it. You know, Page and Craig, you know, there's obviously criticism that they sort of hide their relationship or don't show like their worst fights or whatever. I mean, it's tough with these Bravo shows, too, because they film in such a limited window. I think Kyle was saying that basically, like when they were filming Beverly Hills Housewives, it was all still very you know, they were working things out with Mauricio and she hadn't really gone into the whole depth of what was going on. And then in, you know, it's spelled in the media. And then they started they started filming in Beverly Hills. So she was like it was more a matter of like, what show were we foaming at what time? Which could be quite clear during Beverly and we can get into that another. Yeah, that's like a whole nother podcast where it was very clear in every scene between her and Mauricio that like there was something terrible happening between them and they just weren't really talking. They were just saying, we're going through a rough period in our marriage and that's what they were giving us to work with as an audience which felt to me like Kyle being protective of herself and of the relationship and like, that's fair and good, but if your job is a reality star, then like you kind of don't get the same privacy and respect that people who aren't being being paid to show their real lives would get. Yeah, not really fair to ask for that. Yeah. And I think Andy, you know, hammered Lindsey on this because I think, you know, the whole cast and I think everyone, you know, can agree Lindsey is behind this narrative of being blindsided. So before the show even comes out. We there's a narrative out there like on Instagram, on all the accounts that like Carl blindsided her and he had this conversation. Right? That was sort of like the narrative was that like Carl had this conversation to break up with her on camera to kind of shame her and disrespect her. That was like I remember that was sort of like what was being said in the air before the season even aired. Correct. Or. Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was that like he set her up in that, you know, she had no idea. And you know, we Carl was conflict avoidant. There was many times he softened things for her. But to be honest, I mean, especially with the conversation with his parents, I mean, that was a delicate situation. I don't think I would want my fiancee to come see me and give the full rail trail of that conversation either because I mean, you should soften things for your partner. You know, if somebody said something bad about another friend of mine and they were having conflict, I would go to them and say a softer version of what they said to me, just out of like care. And I think it was going to be on camera. I think he was like, Oh, crap. Look, I have to tell her. Right. Well, that's what played out in the show. You saw where they were. Not even he realized. But Amanda and Kyle were like, she's going to see. This is like you want her to find out about it that way or do you want to be the one to get ahead of that? Yeah. And I mean, he did the best he could. And like, I do feel for Lindsey, like it was it was hitting a lot of her childhood trauma. And I think that was difficult. And to be honest, she handled that well. But to be like I mean, that last conversation that they had before in the Hamptons. So they yeah, they have this fight about his job for the hundredth time and then they have one last conversation in the in the kitchen with Kyle like cleaning cables and over listing, which was the most hilarious moment ever, by the way And she hugs him. And what could only be described as the worst hug I've ever seen on camera, so crazy. And it almost feels like a friend of mine said it felt like she wanted him to break up with her, like and then the way she wouldn't ride with him to Montauk. It just I mean, I don't know, I it was surprising how hard she went in like that. Like, you want to marry this person, you don't even like this person. You spent the whole summer thing that you don't believe in is recovery. Saying that you don't have sex with him? Yeah. Saying that like you're barely attracted to him, and yet you still want to marry him and that you have these like. Well, one of the things I think about Lindsay is I think she must come from a family of people who engage in a lot of like high conflict because it seems really normal, adaptable to her. Florida before, but it seems like it's normal to her. And so for her, she's like it feels like this dream of family and children. And I think we talked about this in the first podcast. It was more important than who was in that role with her, who her partner was like. She wasn't looking for partnership. She was looking for this idealized version of family and children. And if it comes with a whole lot of conflict, that isn't to us outsiders looks really unhealthy. To her, it seems very like tolerable for her to live a life through that. And part of how we can see that is right up there. KARL She jumped into another relationship. She hasn't taken any time to process. She hasn't taken any time to reflect. And in this reunion, we see her like I hear people saying she apologized. I have not heard her apologize for like some of the serious, serious boundary violation she made of having a partner who's in a recovery state. Like ever tell someone in recovery that they're using and to go behind their back and say all these things about their use. And for her apology to say to be saying I am sorry, I should have used more sensitive words, but that's not an apology. Yeah. And I mean, I think people came after Kyle for really hammering her on this and maybe he's not, again, the best messenger. This always happens on, you know, I would have rather seen Paige do this, but Kyle's always held her accountable for this. And I actually think he gave Carl Kyle doing is it feels like a deflection from his own. Really? Oh, of course. But I think he gave Karl good advice in the beginning of the season, being like, I've known this person for ten years, they don't apologize, they don't really own their actions. And you've been okay with that, really, for this relationship and you proposed to her, but now you're getting down to the wedding. So do you want this for the rest of your life or not? Because this person is not changing. And Karl really spent the summer pushing her to change that, I think. And he should have listened to her. I think they were trying to change each other. They were trying to change each other. Yeah. Because then there's a whole new narrative for Lindsey around. Like, he wanted me to be different. He wanted me to be soft, but you wanted him to be a Wall Street bro. And that wasn't who he was. Yeah, I really actually appreciated Andy being like, Wait, so what's your job? Lindsay, you are a summer house star and you're an influencer. And what's Karl's job? He's a summer house star. And influencer, like you have the same job. Yeah. And you know, I read this. She did this glamor magazine piece or whatever, and she was talking about how and this really actually kind of surprised me. She was like, you know, I was doing my PR thing. But then I decided to really lean into Lindsay being on summer house and she was like, I would be on summer house till the day I die. And this is like what I, you know, love doing. I want to be a professional reality show. She wanted to be a real housewife. But like, that's what's confusing to me because you're going to Karl and saying you want him to have a really steady job so you don't have to work and you're going to have kids. But then now you're saying, Well, I want to be reality star forever and be on Summer House forever. And it's like, okay, I mean, I mean, like, look at someone like Stassi who transitioned very well out of Vanderpump Rules into, you know, being a mom writing her books. I don't only see that from Lindsay. You know, she gets this Airbnb in Nashville and she makes it all summer house again. So it's like, well, I thought A&E holding her feet to the fire on that was really fair. I mean Carl can't go and just get a corporate job like he's shown his whole ass on TV for eight years you know when you join a show like Bravo, what makes it, you know, lucrative for you is that you can be an entrepreneur, you can make your own business You can make loverboy. You can make so many different things. You know, for Karl to just go get this corporate job, it just doesn't exist. I mean, it's the same reason Lindsey does, you know, influencing. And they both make a crap ton of money. I mean, he's been paying rent on their apartment for a year and living somewhere else. I mean. This shows to me, I mean, even in that last conversation with Sierra, when she's like, I think he's ready to be married, but I think he's not ready to be an adult. It's like, why do you want to marry him? Well, yeah. And like, what's an adult? Like, Lindsey has one very specific vision of adulthood. And again, do we think Carl is conflict avoidant and has some potential like Arrested Development parts of him like. Yeah, I think that he's still working through a lot. I think when they got engaged, he was a year into his sobriety and he's still trying to figure out who that is. I also think that Carl does a lot of work to try to like, look like a good guy since he got sober. I think it's been really important in his image and I think that's a part of maybe his sober identity is that like he wants to look a certain way because that's how he wants to be but doesn't fully know how to like embody all the parts of that. I think we see that with like whatever happened between him and Captain Lee over the podcast. I think we see it in even in the show. Like I think he came humbled, very, very humbled to the reunion, both because I think he. Was probably felt bad that he really hurt Lindsay in those ways. But I also think he was very conscious that he could not come in hot, that that would not have been a good look for him to come in and be defensive. And he wasn't. And I found that to be very relatable. And I found that to be something I could connect with him and feel like I feel sympathy and empathy for this person, like they're coming in, taking a lot of accountability. And even at one moment you hear Paige say, like, Carl, your beat, you're so harsh on yourself. Like, you should not be that harsh on her yourself. And it's not because he's perfect, but like he clearly has such low self-esteem, which I think is why he ended up with someone like Lindsay, because he wanted someone who was really strong, because I think he wants to figure out how to be in touch with those parts of himself. But there's sort of this like bigger integration he needs to do around, like, I don't need to be something that I'm not and I need to be okay with, like who I am. And it's going to be a long journey for him. But I could see him doing that journey where I don't know that I see Lindsay being able to do a more self-reflective journey, a more sort of self aware journey. And I think that that makes it very hard for me to align with Lindsay because I don't see her doing work on herself. Yeah. I mean, she kind of just after this breakup went into PR mode and then got into another relationship. And then she's like, It's hard to begin a new relationship in this old relationship. It's like, Girl, take a beat. I mean, with Carl, I think, you know, he definitely came into sobriety. And I think he did look at Lindsay as someone that would help guide his life. And I think that's where Lindsay was maybe confused or misdirected, because I think he did like her telling him, like, don't work at Loverboy. I think he did like her, you know, dictating their plans, getting the fancy apartment, making sure they were the perfect couple for Bravo. I think it gave him a purpose. And I think she but I think where she goes wrong is she doesn't realize how much she like that. Mm hmm. And, you know, her being like, oh, it's a turn off that you're not crushing life. It's like, well, I mean, you kind of took this guy who was insecure. I just molded him into what, you know, you wanted. And you were I mean, you know, when she goes into The Stepford Wife thing, all I can think about is Winter House. When she showed up and I remember us talking about it and being like, were there soles removed? But literally removed because she showed up with like the apron making the meals. She was sober, she was presenting exactly like these Stepford wife. And then you see them starting Summer House. And Carl is really rising. Like Maya comes after Lindsay for being cruel to her in another car. And Lindsay is saying, Oh, that's not what happened. That's not what happened. And I was like, I know what happened. And Karl was like, I'm taking Lindsay's side. She's my she's my person now and really did step up for her. But then I think when the engagement happened, I think all of that mask, all of that facade just fell away. Well, and I think probably what it had to do with Karl being longer into his sobriety, and I think it had to do with Lindsay starting to drink again, it became harder and harder for him to, like, take her side. The more what we see is when Lindsay gets drunk, she gets very emotional, she gets very volatile. And it's hard to back that. And it's hard to be around that energy, especially when you're sober and you're like of a very clear mind. Yeah. And so, I mean, the Bravo base right now is, you know, I mean, I think it's mostly. Yes. Split. I know Bravo historian is probably the only prominent like Bravo, you know. Commentator right now that's taking Karl's side. And she's like, You can all come for me. But like, there's so many women that are just Team Lindsay hardcore, which, I mean, Lindsay's given a lot to the show. I what we said in the last, Oh, I want to be on TV. I don't want her to go. What? Yeah. So I, I like, understand it, but it's also, like, just so confusing because there's this narrative of, like, Karl manipulated and gaslit her. And every time a friend was saying this to me and I was like, give me examples of, like, when that happened. And she's like, honestly, I have to go back and watch to, like, tell you. And I'm like, because it didn't happen. Like, it didn't happen. Let's, let's define what gaslighting is because I think it's an overt and I think in general like therapy terms get way overused and weaponized in situations like this. And I think this is a situation where it's being weaponized. Gaslighting is an intentional deception and it's a tool for abuse. I don't think that Karl was accused of gaslighting comes from a movie from back in I don't know the forties or something new, the 67 or the date. It's a black and white movie with Ingrid Bergman the husband in the movie is like part of why it's called Gaslight is he's like dimming the Gaslight on and off and she's like, Something's going on with our gaslight. And he's like, No, I don't see it. Like, he's, like, denying her reality to her face in order to gain control because he wants to steal all of her money. And that is not what's happening here. Like gaslighting, like an unhealthy relationship. And gaslighting are two different things. Having a different perception of an argument or of an interaction is not the same as gaslighting. So do I think that Karl and Lindsey have different ideas of like, what happens between them and what and how each of them show up to those, like, arguments and conflict? Yes, but I don't think and if anything, I think that Lindsey maybe moves more in a gaslighting way, because I think that she's someone who wants more control where I don't see Carl as being like. I don't even think he's, like, strong enough to do like to like abuse or control somebody. I think he was conscious of his image and that feels really valid because I think everyone in reality is conscious of like how the like they're all in the comment section, as Lola would say, in conscious of like what is the audience thinking about me? How am I showing up? Like, what are they going to think if I do certain things? Yeah. I mean, I think Carl also kind of hints at all these in the last episode, hints all these arguments that we didn't see on camera. They talk about like right before they film that break up scene, Lindsay came in to confront him, like, what are we filming about? And he was like, If you don't change, like, blah, blah, blah. Do I think he was harsher off camera in their in their fights than he presented on camera? Probably. Probably. I think it would be helpful to you to break down what happened in that car, because I think that was a big issue in the reunion that I found really fascinating. And then in the aftershow, you know, obviously we see all the girls supporting her right after the break up. And then there was clearly a turn because I think the girls were like, you posted this Instagram acting like we're on your side, but we weren't. That was a little manipulative on your end. And then, you know, in the Aftershow page kind of goes through how Lindsey can often, distort situations that page was like present for and was like, skews the narrative in a way where she's the victim. And Cierra cosigned on this and she and then Amanda comes in and says the same thing. She's like, Lindsay's probably not going to talk to me after this, but I've been witness to it. And I think the Maia scene from the previous season was super telling for that. I think, you know, Maya's, like you said, some of the meanest things that anyone has ever said to me and Lindsay's like, that's not what happened. And it's like and it's fascinating to me as someone with the whole gaslighting thing, I mean, she can say he was dismissing and not validating her feelings, which is obviously very different than gaslighting. Yeah. No, not at all. But she could say that. But at the same time, with that Maya conversation, she's literally sitting in front of her saying, you said some of the meanest things that anyone has ever said to my face. Well, we believe it because we've seen her say really mean things to Karl, to different people on the show. We see how her reality of a bit of like. Situations is very different than the shared reality. And I assume when you say we'll go back to the car, you're talking about that initial fight that they had that we didn't see in the car. Yeah, the car. Because she's like. Well, she says. I felt angst and the feeling she had underlying it felt really valid, like this feeling of like, I feel worried that the girls aren't going to like me. I'm feeling like given a lot of her attachment wounds like that experience that she was having was really valid and she was valid to feel invalidated by Carl being like, Hey, just calm down. It's not a big deal. And I get where he's coming from. He's not a therapist. Like he's not going to perfectly respond to all of her emotions and all of her attachment wounds, but like valid that there was a rupture there. Yeah. The fact that she takes a rupture and brings it so low to call him like cocaine. Carl, again, like the biggest violation you can make to somebody in recovery is to question their recovery in a public way. She multiple times she knew these things would get seen just in the same way she's saying, how dare he disrespect me and have this conversation on film? Like you went and had conversations about his sobriety behind his back. Like what is like what is worse? And by me breaking up with you on camera and giving you like again, like it almost gives her the upper hand. Like there's if we really think about it, he was being some mastermind like he would have done that to make himself look a lot better. And he you know, he did I don't even know that he went into that conversation with the plan to Ed the relationship. I imagine that was a thought. Or to end the marriage or postpone the marriage, I imagine that was like a thought in his mind going into it. But I don't know that he had made that decision up until like the moment it was happening. Oh, and he said in the aftershow, which watching how it played, it makes sense to me. He was saying if I said all these things to her and she said, you know, you're right, this has gotten out of control. We need to fix this. I love you like and gave him a hug. He would have been that's what he was praying for. Where he went wrong is. You got that realistic? No. Yeah. You can't expect your partner to show up the way you have in your head. So like, that was completely unrealistic. And I think giving her sort of like an ultimatum was maybe unfair, but at the same time, like he was done, like he was a broken person and I think she was a broken person. And the fact that she was able to turn it around so much wounding, so much wounding they did to each other. Yeah. And I mean, I think the whole car incident, that spirit spurred the cocaine. Karl. I mean, Kyle and Jessie, they don't really go to waste but are like, that's not what happened in that car. Like, that's just not what happened. Like, you went from 0 to 60, you went crazy. And then Amanda even says, and then the next week and you were still going crazy and saying the same things to me, like for 2 hours. And Lindsay is like, well, if I wasn't drinking, it probably wouldn't be that emotional. And like, okay, girl, like, we've all been wine emotional. Like, it happens. Like this brings up an interesting case about like her ideas about sobriety and her ideas about fairness. Like this whole thing she brought up about, like, well, it's not fair that he gets to smoke marijuana and I don't get to drink. And like, what a like, regressive state of thinking that is. Like, what an immature state of thinking that is, that like life is fair and that like him questioning your alcohol use that you are saying, I get more emotional, I get more of this when I'm drunk is an unfairness for him to be able to like smoke and then again like her throwing him right under the throwing his sobriety under the bus by bringing up this mushroom incident that they had and being like, well, were you really sober and like You know, Karl kept saying, Lindsey has been really supportive of my sobriety. If you are really supportive. She would do some work and understand that like there's many versions of sobriety that are not just like I abstain from every substance that is one version and there's no right. I think everyone has to be on their own sort of path of recovery. And that part of sobriety is relapse. There's lapses and relapses that are going to be part of it. And maybe this mushroom incident was technically like a relapse because he tried something that he thought he could he could, but wanted to be doing mushrooms with him. That's what I don't understand. Like, why are you saying now throwing him under the bus saying that because you were doing mushrooms with him. Be a partner to someone in recovery. She's never done that work. It's very clear that she has never gone to a therapist and said, Talks. Talk me through how to be a partner of someone in recovery, in sobriety. And it's weird to me like why she was playing that role of, you know, Stepford wife I don't drink and making in even with that I keep going back to this conversation with Maia but She was like throwing in Maya's face, like, because she basically Maya tried to, like, smoke weed with Karl, and then she got very mad and she's like, I gave up drinking to support him, and you should, like, be supportive of that. I did that for him. It's like, why should Maya give to craps what you're doing? Why is his sobriety about you? Yeah, exactly. And also is giving up drinking that sort of. Well, we see like is she needs it. It gives her an excuse to let her emotions out in a way that she can then disown any responsibility and feel validated in that which I mean, to be fair, I think a lot of women do that and I've done it like I think that that's you know, I think a lot of women do see themselves in Lindsay and some of these behaviors. And maybe that's part of why they are so like ride or die for her. I mean, I was listening to or I saw this like clip on Instagram of a podcast where they were kind of saying, oh, like, you know, Carl was not being cognizant of the fact that, like, Lindsay is 38 and she wants to have kids and this was her dream and he stole that from her and yadda yadda, yadda. But it's like I'm just I understand that because we are so programed to get married, have kids do this, and like I think about Katie and Todd from PPR and the grief that Katie has talked about around leaving that marriage and like having to let go of the idea that she may never have children now and that she may never get her like white picket fence and like that. That's hard. But that like in the end, she is so much happier to not be in a relationship where she doesn't feel respected and even getting her needs met. And so like the grief, that's a great comparison. Having lost that, felt feels really valid. But that's not what she's talking about because she she would be willing to like it feels like she doesn't care. Like as long as she gets what she wants, she doesn't actually care about whether like she has a supportive or respectful partnership. Yeah, I mean, that's a great comparison, I think with Katie and Schwartz because Katie sort of rushed into that marriage, too, right? They didn't really work on the things they need to work on. She just had a timeline. And Katie is not even like that. But I know. I think it's I think it's TBD, right? There's like. Yeah, sure. Of like, what's your storyline? There's a pressure. Yeah, there's pressure of storyline. There's pressure of like probably even more commentary about your age. And for women, like age and productivity are so interlaced and that being interlaced with like your value as a woman in the world, and we see that in Lindsay so much that like these ideas she has about like I need to have I need to be married with children and it feels like there's something connected in that of like otherwise I don't have value. And I think Katie has been a perfect example of someone who's like overcome that and been like, No, actually, it's so much more value to, like, just be happy and to just be like, you know, that I'm respected and know that I like taking care of myself. And it makes me really sad for Lindsay that like, she's putting so much stock in, like, that's what I need to be happy as opposed to, like, I actually just need, like, a good life to be happy and that that good life may have children, may have partnership or may not. And to have a real relationship where it's like you work through these things, you know, one of the things she says in that breakup scene is like there's 15 other things you do before you end things. And I was like, girl, what are they? Like, list the like because they're going to couples therapy and I don't mean on this stuff through like if things are as toxic as what we like and we didn't even see everything. Oh yeah. But like what we saw on the show, like literally the first weekend they showed up in the house, I was like, their marriage is over. Like, there's no way this couple could, you know, I wouldn't have even need to know. And they broke up to know like this was never going to end well. Like, they're so much like, I don't know. I think it's like Gottman who's, like, really famous. Him and his wife are really famous, like couples, therapists and have all these theories about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And it's like basically the four things that exist in a relationship that mean like the relationship will never end and like they had all of them. so the four horsemen are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, like, oh my God, they're entire and stonewalling. Oh, they did like, oh, my God, it's horrible. As horrible. And the defensiveness I think is again and it's all Lindsay because like I think that like Karl's a big so yeah I think that he also had a lot of contempt towards Lindsay. Like, I think. Oh, yeah. Things had gotten really dark between them. Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot by the time the season started, it was a point of no return. Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of women see themselves, I mean, in a lot of the arguments and stuff, but it was, some of it wasn't based in reality. I really like appreciated that Andy pushed her on the job stuff because that that was the question I had watching this whole thing. I'm like, okay, if my husband is bringing in over $200,000, which for sure Carl was making way more than $200,000 a year. I wouldn't have too many complaints and spending $20,000 on a career coach. Yeah, it seems like a lot, but honestly, a high end business coach, $20,000 is like not that much. And like, it did seem like he got a lot out of it. I mean, after he broke up with Lindsay, did he do anything? Traditional? No. But he produced a movie in Malibu, some rom com that I'll probably watch on Netflix. That will probably be trash. But you know whatever he's making his sober bars cafe which all cafes are sober usually never fails like who cares? Yeah, like, I think I think the whole fight between them was not about finance or money. I think it was about expectations and control. She felt the role of the man was him not living in that role and what he expected the role of the woman to be like. She's going to be unconditionally supportive of me if she's not like because I don't think she's wrong to question. I think she does it in a tone and a manner that moves out of like supportive questioning and moves more into like criticism. I don't think she's very not softer, delicate, but she's not very mindful about like, ooh, how could this question make my partner feel who's going through a time of, like, insecurity and change in their lives? Just be like, no, that is so bah bah. Now that's like that's a terrible idea like that. Like, no, someone who's trying to navigate like he's coming to you with 20 different ideas because you're shooting them down. And she says she's not doing that. But as we know, she's not like a reliable reporter. And so, like, I fully believe any idea he's brought to her, she's shot down. I mean, we've got our camera, too, you know. Yeah, but she's saying, I only did that because there were like 100 ideas before that, that like, he didn't know that. Like, that basically led me to need to shoot them down. It's like, no, there's probably all those ideas because you were shooting all these different things down. But, you know, I don't really care that he does something and fails. Like, why does that matter? Like why is he not a PR company? And it failed because she doesn't do it anymore. It speaks to well, I don't know if it that whatever, like I'm not doing it anymore, but I think it speaks to a part of her that like doesn't. Again, goes back to that idea of like fairness. Like it's not fair that he gets to do ideas that might fail. And I don't, because inside of me, I'm not allowed to because of my childhood. And I think her all of her arguments with him are about fairness. Like, if we really look at it, it's like what is fair? And like who is creating this idea of like what's fair? And is that even like a realistic way of looking at relationships or life? Yeah. And I think you saying, like him wanting a traditional sense of what a woman was and her wanting a traditional sense of what a man is is really unfortunate because they actually had so many qualities that helped each other. You know, I think Lindsay taking control over things. That's what Karl needed and liked. I think her crafting this perfect image of this Bravo couple, doing it on Instagram, making sure they got, you know, their fair share of the guys she could control like that probably felt very empowering to her. Like, I know I'm that kind of woman, so I really connect with that. Like, I couldn't be with a find out romance bro, who's going to like, try to tell me how to be or expect me to be some typical wife. Like, No, I'm going to make the decisions. I'm going to like I want to wear the pants. Yeah. And like, you know, I think their first year yeah. Their first year of their relationship, they were in Mexico every other day with, you know, some trade out like, you know, they were living a high life and Karl was wearing what she told him to wear. Didn't want to, you know. And on Karl's side, you know, even though Lindsay wasn't soft to him like he was, he was good at being soft to Lindsay when she really needed that. And I don't think she really you know, even in that car ride where she flipped out, I mean, he didn't say what she needed him to say in that moment. But he was being it seemed like he did care, like and he kind of forgave her for that whole cocaine Karl thing pretty easily. I thought so. I don't know. I mean, I think there's the little independent impact there. Like, do I think he intended to shut down her feelings? No. But is that like a company? And the same with the break up, like her version of it being that like not that she was blindsided, but that he did it in a disrespectful way. Like that's a valid feeling for her to have. Yeah. And I saw so many had stopped there, I could support her around it. But the fact that she goes into this like I know what his intentions were that I don't feel aligned with, like what we're seeing or what we even like know about Karl because like even in, like if we look at his history of relationships, like it doesn't feel like he's mal intentioned. It just feels like sometimes he's not always mindful, he's not always like he's not always the most mature person. I think he you know, I think there's some deeper stuff in his family. History that is probably really interesting and speaks to like the way he moves in relationships and his own fears and conflict avoidance and not wanting to face certain feelings within himself. Yeah, I mean, and he's owning a lot of that. I mean, so let's get into the final conversation and the debate, the hot debate that A&E goes in on. And I have to say he word for word basically said what I said in our last part, that I was like and I think at the end of this let's look at I mean, at the end of the day, too, people need to realize is like A&E is always going to and this is consistent show up to these reunions and defend the production companies production often the producers defend because he is part of he is part of production but also it's like this is their job and their job is very difficult and delicate. And, you know, when you work for Bravo, the amount of scrutiny you get is so much more insane than if you work on 90 day fiance or any other show. Because, you know, everyone, the fan base is just feral. Like, let's get into it. But also like he's right. I mean, they don't determine what gets shot. And, you know, I saw some tweet or something that's like, well, if the producers were doing their a their job, they would know this conversation was going to be a break up or they would know it's like, well, yeah, we know. But like, again, like, what are you mad about? What are you mad about? That they would have known it was going to be a breakup, but they would know it was going to be something that was going to hurt one of the people. But like their coats go back to like it's their job to protect their these people's feelings. No, I mean, it's not it's it's not because the end of the day and if anyone signs up for it thinking that that's kind of on them and it feels good, that's like Lindsay's staff was like and also should be protecting me. And I think she has been protected. And so this is like kind of a slap. And this is our first like, oh, wait, like, no. Yeah. And also, I mean, you know, now shows are talking about bringing in like a therapist on set or whatever. But at the end of the day, like I studied and went to film school, I know how to make documentary television and I know how to get people to, you know, be vulnerable and real on camera for their own benefit. And if they want to, nobody's forced to do this. But, you know, I would need to make a crap ton more money, I'll tell you that. If they want me to also be a therapist and also care like, you know, worry about their deeper issues or how this is going to affect that. Like there is support on these shows. But at the same time, like also Lindsay being on the show for how long? Like she know, like, you know, you know what the deal is. And her doing a glamor magazine saying like, I would shoot summer house till I die, it's like, well, that's the job like. And also, right. There's a dissonance there. There's such a dissonance she's bringing to protect herself and to keep this like PR spin that she's the victim and that she, you know, she's the Reagan of the situation. Oh, yeah. And also, I mean, that conversation they had in the kitchen, I mean, just transplant all the stuff Carl said in the living room and put it in that kitchen when they were filming. I mean, what's the difference? Because they had to pick up cameras and do another. I mean, anybody who watched that kitchen scene where they Lindsay gave him the most painful hug you've ever seen and then left being like, I don't want to, like, ride with him. Ride with you? Yeah, I can't be with you. And then we were going to cut to their wedding. Like in what world does that make sense for the audience? And going back to the Kyle Mauricio, they would have been like, why didn't we see it? And I mean, I think Kyle, I don't I don't think Karl intended. I mean, even when I like was watching it, I think a friend was like, you know. He never said, I'm breaking up with you like she's the one who said it. She said, okay, so you've made this decision. We're done. And he actually never said, I made this decision. He's he said, I have a relationship problem and then open the floor to her. And she's like, So you don't wanna get married? We're done. And he had already said that to her three days before in the kitchen, saying, I'm having second thoughts. You know, in her reality, when she blindsided, sure she was blindsided, but resigned for that, which is not like the shared reality, because we can cut to cut to cut through all the times that he said, I don't. There was more than in the kitchen. I think there was a few other times. I like I don't know, like I'm having second thoughts. Like, if we can't communicate better, is this going to work? And it feels like she separated from that. She does a lot of like defensive creating walls to reality that she doesn't want that doesn't serve her said okay. So this is my question, though, as women, is this something that we do? Again, I'm still trying to understand the fan base. I'm trying to understand the the intense reaction of support to Lindsey, because it's one of the first times that I've been reading posts and I'm just like, am I in a different universe? It's and some people that I know are very, you know, anti Carl and listen, there's a lot to be anti Carl about. I'm not like pro Carl, but I'm just watching this situation. I'm like, did I see a different scene than other people saw? Well, I feel like that comes down to the way we can't hold space for nuance. And I think that, like, there's too many people out there that like and you see all these pose like whose team are you on and not team they shouldn't be together is an answer. And it's like, why isn't that in an answer? Why does he need to be? And it feels very political to me. And that gives me the it because I feel like this is supposed to be a space where like we can just have fun and enjoy. And the fact that it needs to come down to like you, if you like, if there's a criticism of Lindsey, then that means you're on team Carl. If you are criticism of Carl, then you're on Team Lindsey. And like, I just don't think I think they're both broken people who need to do a lot of work on themselves. And why can't that just be true? Like, why does it have to be? We have to like and I think again, I do think everyone agrees, like thank God these two people didn't get married. Like that would have been a mess. But I mean, I guess it would've been really fascinating. I mean, the Four Horsemen that you read was eye opening. But yeah, I mean, in their universe, this like, you know, other, you know, narrative. Did they did they want Lindsey who openly said, I don't even Joy having sex with this man to marry Carl, get her fairytale wedding, get everything she wanted, have her baby like this perfect image. And then what? Be married to this guy. How they can split off from all of the terrible things that she said. And then she went on me. I remember in the Nick Veil or bio harvest is name interview, she said, like, we agreed that we would never disrespect each other by talking about our sex lives. And she said that like after the breakup, after she had spent the whole summer talking about their sex lives. And I think that as an audience, we take that on too. And I feel like it comes from a place of like, I need to choose a side. There's like a part of me that needs to choose a side. And I don't know, the feminist in me, like, hates that I, if I had to choose a side, would choose Carl side just because I think he has more potential for like healing and growth than Lindsay does at this point in their lives. You know who's to say what the future holds? But like, why do it? Like, why do you have to make that choice? Like, where is that coming from? That that idea that like if you can that you can't just be critical and bold. And how do you separate from those things that Lindsay said? Like, how do you separate from the cocaine Karl of it all? How do you separate that she was showing their whole, like, sex lives in a way that was so disrespectful to him and so hurtful. And I don't just like it feels like the audience does a lot of like kind of split where they like want to choose like one version of events that makes things make sense. Yeah. And I think in the reunion, in the reunion and even now when we talk about the PR element of it all, you can see I mean, even with that glamor magazine, I think she wants to be back in the house and she doesn't you know, she wants to make it clear. Me and Karl can live in the same house. She does not want that Ariana Sandoval situation that happened this last season of VR that literally tanked the show. And I think she's been pivoting to that. But yeah, I mean, these reunions, I think people were really hard on it, too, because every reunion, it sort of seems like everyone's coming for Lindsay. But isn't that a sign of something? I mean. Well, that brings me back to what you were saying about the girls earlier. And they didn't respond to this at the time because we're talking I think the conversation went somewhere else. But it makes me think about like how the girls rallied for her on the show like that. That doesn't mean that all of those other feelings they have for her aren't real and that they necessarily agree with her perspective of what happened in the breakup even. But like that, they can put that aside for a moment and just be like, We're going to support you in a moment of crisis and we can hold you accountable later. And that's what was missing on BPR is like, oh, like Lala and Sheena, like them wanting Ariana to like heal and do this like instead of just rallying and being like, let's be in your process. Let's just like move slowly. And when you're ready and when you're more in a like, stable, emotional place, when some time has fucking passed, we can bring up the idea of like, how are you going to film? How are we going to film the show? How are we going to make this work? Yeah. And I, I don't think it was fake. I don't think Paige hugging Lindsay and being supportive of her as a woman who had just been broken up with was her being fake. But I do think that like. That doesn't change that. Paige also has her own experience of Lindsay. That's that's very real to her. And that knows that like. What Lindsay says about this breakup probably isn't like the truth or the facts. And I think she explained that really well in the aftershow because she was saying, like, in that moment, Lindsey started going to victim mode and Gaby was in puppet mode and she just couldn't handle it. But instead of, you know, coming for her and being like, no, this is your typical thing, she was very supportive and she was like, Listen, Lindsey, you don't need to get into all that. He did you a favor. You want to have sex with, like a broken penis for the rest of your life, as Katy, you know, said about. Sure. It's like, do you want to be with a man who, like, can't be an adult, is what you said? Like, dude, like, do you want that? Like, you don't want that. He did you a favor move on. Like, this isn't about victim. So, I mean, I think they handled it really well, I think with PR bringing that up. I think the producers were probably excited at the idea that Ariana and Sandoval are still living in the same house together, and that's insanely chaotic. And maybe that's why they pushed for it. But I honestly think their mistake was they filmed too soon after, like way too soon after. And I think the producers had too much of an agenda. Well, they I mean, that's a huge controversy now of Sina saying that, you know, the EP had said the executive producer said something to her and that the executive producer was like, again, this is well, Christina in LA need to fall into it like, no. But I do think they came in with an idea of like giving Sandoval a redemption arc. And I think even Andy bought into it because Andy kept saying like, la, la, la. So he's the voice of reason this season. And that's like not what how it showed and that's not how it played out. I think there was sort of an idea of like, we're going to create this, this, this is what the story's going to be. looking back on the history of PR, I mean, I said this to other people and I'm like, I don't agree and I don't like it. But like, wasn't Jax forgiven? Wasn't, you know, like equally bad things happen? But I'm just saying, like, why wouldn't they think that based on what's happened in the past? Oh, sure. And and I mean, I guess this is the general, you know, misogyny of bravo that everyone's coming for right now. And it's like I mean, most reality TV is watched, driven by women and most production companies and networks are run by men. That's welcome to reality. And I think the only way we could change it is, I think, you know, as much as Darlene's. Yeah, hire me. First of all, for sure. I take all forms of money, but also like, you know, I don't know how I feel about the Lindsay. Karl. There's way more nuance there, but I do support this bigger question of like who Ramsay showed and who drives these these thought processes. Who watches these edits? The majority of editors in this business are men, you know, like I've been in so many rooms with a majority of men, you know, dictating, Oh, why is this important? Why does it matter? And being the only woman in the room, being like, as a woman, this is the only storyline I would literally care about. I wouldn't even care about any of the other storylines and having to, you know, fight for that and say that is really difficult, you know, especially if you're in a lower position. And, you know, so I hope the reality of those things, you know, get through, you know, like as opposed to the whole argument of like who called production and who didn't call production. want to emphasize what you're saying, that I think it will be interesting around like the gender dynamics of the people who are watching are women and the people who are making are men And I think that's part of like a contentious. Thing that's happening in TV and I think says like female watchers like one of the and it makes me think and makes me maybe even more empathy for Lindsay. One of the reasons we want to stand up for Lindsey is because we don't want it to be whenever there are shows that, like, we don't see so much in the housewives because the cast is all women. But on the show, these more integrated shows where it's, you know, Summer House on BPR like Southern Charm, that it doesn't always come down to like male redemption arcs. Mhm. Because I think that becomes very distasteful for us as women like men, white men nonetheless. Right. Like mostly white men do not need to. They already walk around the world with tons and tons of privilege. They don't need a redemption arc. That's okay. We're we're okay with that. But like, if one of them does some big shitty, let's just like let that sit that it was shitty. We don't need to correct it or fix it. And like, that's why I think Ariana was right in her reunion. Like me walking away from that conversation is more interesting. And for me as a woman and as a viewer, that was more interesting than like her forgiving the man like Stassi did with Jax. Like, and I think that won't play anymore. Yeah. And I think I have to take a step back and realize, you know, having been in so many of these rooms, like who are who is driving these conversations, like who, you know, things on camera is more interesting than things off camera. Things happening is more interesting than not happening. Like that's just reality. But at the same time, you know how, you know, speaking about that, you know, there's so many times when you're working on these shows, you know, like a Southern charm where it's like, well, we want to hear about Austin doing his Austin thing for the hundredth time. And I'm like, you know, this person having an IVF storyline is really interesting. You know, women are going through this and they want to follow that. And, you know, you have to push back sometimes on those things. And it's it is very difficult. And, you know, I think with Lindsey, one of the things they did well was the soft conversation. I think, you know, many women are triggered by the soft conversation. I said it during our Lindsey, you know, like and then I'm like, like women don't need that resolve. Well, and and it's a framing as well. I mean, I get that. I mean, I think, you know, and say to me, I wish you were more like my mom. And I was like, so you want to sleep with your mom? Like, that's what you're saying. You want to actively have sex with your mom. That is weird. That is some weird shit. I'm sorry. That's weird. And you know, Ben, God, Karl didn't say that, but, like, it came off, like, I wish you were more like my mom, who is soft and, like, takes care of me, is weak, and, you know, needs me to take care of her and like, they were there and that was very valid. And I think we had a great conversation about it because you were like, She doesn't need to be soft. She's strong. Like, that's who she is. And I think that's fair, too. And I think the nuance comes in like Karl just needed something different from her. That moment he, you know, and when he said that his regret her valid but the way he's going about it and expecting his needs to be met in such a span and they're both like this and she's doing the same thing. Yeah. And yeah. And it's not like you're, you're going to come up against the wall because when what you want is opposite of who your partner is, then you need to take a step back and say, Do I truly accept my partner for who they are? Yeah, maybe. But if I don't, then I should not be in this relationship. No. And I go back to I feel like Lindsey was trying to get him to break up with her. I mean, I was shocked that Karl did it. I mean, I don't think anyone was trying to get I don't agree with any of that. And I don't think anyone was trying. I think that they really wanted to get they went into this season thinking they were going to have their wedding special in October or November or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. And then I think the season played out and the conflict got worse and worse. And I think it got worse because of the cameras. And this probably a pressure to for each of them of how they're being seen. Right. Like, I think they both are very conscious of like how they're being seen and then a pressure to like have an interesting story. I think there probably is some like Lindsay drinking and getting emotional because she like I mean we talked about it last time like activated as part of her brand like that's her bread and butter brand new. The most is regulated in a lot of ways. Yeah. And Summer House is really unique. I know the Toms talked about being scared to go in a winter house because they do the same set up, which is they have surveillance cameras that film 24 seven. So once you're in that summer house, anything you do is mostly going to be on camera, even if you don't intended to be like, you know, Danielle having intimate sex with the balloon man, which we saw way too much of, to be honest. But, you know, like but yeah. Yeah. And I mean her first cocaine Karl comment she even said I didn't realize it was being filmed. And then people are like, you know that, Kim. As are there. But you a deal in weakness? No, you don't know. And also, like I would give her more credit if she didn't than go say it like a hundred more times. But, you know, and then you continue to question his sobriety and trauma like. No, maybe she didn't realize. Like, I'm sure there is some reality and they stop recognizing that the cameras are filming them and like she meant those comments. Oh, yeah, definitely. And I mean, that's the thing. I think Danielle knew last season all the stuff was going on off camera and they just did a very good job on camera of keeping it, you know, under wraps in this season. It just spilled completely over. And. But, I mean, even if you look at Amanda and Kyle and like their season of before they got married like know we got to look at that four horsemen of the head like I don't know if they would pass that test because their pre wedding season was dark as well was dark. I mean, there's one other thing is the violations in their case were still like, I just think about how sensitive a recovery journey is no matter how long you're in it. And you have a partner who clearly doesn't understand any part of that is. I don't see how that could work like that. Yeah. You're putting yourself at risk to stay in. And he must've recognized this. Like I am at risk of relapse if we get married. Like, I'll be drinking on that wedding day, because there's just no way that, like, I can go into a marriage with someone who doesn't fully believe in my sobriety, who doesn't believe in my recovery journey and their first date together. She had brought out the fireball, shot all the fireball shots I just kept when he was saying that about all of the sobriety stuff. They were way too old to be drinking fireballs. Oh, and like an endless amount. And then I'm like, and then they were. Then we're talking about the mushrooms. I was like, Yeah. A lot of their friendship was based on drinking and going out and partying like, and Lindsay's a party or she likes. I remember being back on Summer House like any one in like the recovery field would probably not have recommended that for him. Because you feel like I talked about this in the Lindsay episode too. Like one of the biggest things in recovery is people, places, things, and not being around the people and the places and the things that you that used to like feed into your addiction. And like, it's very clear that this summer house, those people, they they were a big part of his addiction. So yeah, one of the questions you wrote was how did the pressure of being a Bravo couple impact their relationship trajectory before that one? Before that one is the one about scandal ball. So let's talk about that. Oh, okay. And then we can talk about the other two together because I sort of feel that people want to do this very like binary understanding of like Team Lindsay teams. Karl Because of how close this was to scandal ball and wanting to kind of like fit this breakup into the same sort of like what do you call that? Like same as the scandal ball breakup. And it's so, it's so different. It's so different. Like Ariana was legitimately blindsided. Well, and again, the argument Sheena sat him down and said was just break up with her that. Carl did that. He didn't cheat on her. He did nothing disrespectful other than, I guess, filming for the show that they're on. I mean, look at the big difference between Karl and Sandoval is Karl since then has been very mindful about how he's moving in the world to not, you know, not disrespect Lindsey any further or not do anything that like he he's kind of been in hiding. It almost feels like. Has he ever. Like, have we heard any interviews with him besides. No. I mean, the captain the Captain Lee was going to be his big. We didn't hear that. Yeah. No, because he apparently freaked out and told him not to air it, which I mean, you know, put it on his podcast, which I did think that was unfortunate and sad, but something was behind that. I would love for him to actually do talk about that because you know what I wish you would talk about. But I also think that he's being mindful to like not spin to not like where like Sandoval, literally, you know, the week after is making jokes at his show about Raquel and Arianna and making like a mockery of it, where I feel like. Karl, is it perfect? No. But he I feel like he's doing his best to be respectful. And, you know, Lindsay went on her tour. He never responded to any of it. He never said it was a New York Times article. And I don't think you read it, but I read I because I had to read the competing like Glamor magazine versus New York Times. Which one's more impressive? I do think the photos and Lindsay's was more impressive than Karl's, but Karl's New York Times article was always going out, and she's gorgeous. I know she is gorgeous, but so it really didn't say anything. I don't even remember all the details he basically just talked about, like getting sober on the show, losing his brother. How hard and very mindful to not want to talk about this because he does not want to feed into any like narrative or make it seem like he's trying to spin for empathy. I think he's trying to just create like and I feel like you showed up like that at the reunion where he was like, I'm not here to like like I feel like he could have torn her to bits for the things he said about the things she said about his sobriety and his recovery. And he was the whole time saying how supportive she was. yeah, I'm really disappointed. It was two parts like wives. Why did we get three parts of like Vanderpump rules of them like sneak attacking Ariana with like the finale for like we got two parts of summer house finale why and we got no Valley reunion. We are right back where it really where we've been robbed. But I think because the Valley was going to pick up filming, they were like, it's better to just pick up filming there. Maybe I'd rather see that reunion. Yeah. And also I think because they probably didn't have in the budget a reunion because first season shows often don't. Mm hmm. But we got shafted with only two parts, and I want secrets revealed. Probably weren't that many secrets left. I feel like. Oh, I would then text messages. I would the text messages between Karl and Lindsey that Karl was like, Look at your text messages. I want to look it up. I want to look. This is I don't understand I don't understand the people being like they shouldn't have filmed. I want more. I want the text messages. I want their fight, their fights. I want the security cam from the apartment where she broke all the water bottles and like sold those, it feels like. So I know. I want the emails from the landlord. I want to know they don't make her look good because otherwise they don't feel we would have seen them or heard them. If they if they really benefited her narrative, we would have seen that. I know. I want receipts, timeline, proof, all of it. Okay, let's go into my final two questions. So we were generally doing these to those few questions about like, is reality TV good for the person? Is it good for us? Like, but since we're kind of more talking about the relationship, it was making me think about like how reality TV impacts the relationship. So like, how does the pressure of being a Bravo couple? I'm thinking about these couples who really like their relationship is informed by being on Bravo versus like people who maybe like work in a relationship and then became Bravo stars, but also like is a real relationship on reality TV. Like good for the relationship. So those were two things that really kind of came to me is like a therapist or something that's interesting. And thinking about like human dynamics and like I guess there's even a question in there of like, is it good for us to see like a relationship like Carl and Lindsay is and have to pick a side of what we like? Does it reinforce parts of us like that, identify with Lindsay and like I was noticing myself fighting with my husband and in a moment it wasn't validating me in the way I wanted. I wanted to, like, freak out. And what felt good for me about watching Lindsay is like, Oh, no, I'm not going to do that. Like, I'm not going to be irrational in that way because I don't like the way that look. I could go there because I feel it in myself, but I'm also going to like take that step back and like try to be a little bit aware of like there's more than just me in this relationship. So it's all got so hard. But I also and the worse feeling the other side of it where like almost validates for certain women or people that like it's okay to behave in certain irrational or unhealthy ways that like you're supposed to as a woman, behave in that way. And that I do think there's a little play of gender that happens on Bravo of like. Women do this and men do this, and it kind of validates unhealthy gender roles and dynamics in ways that feels a little icky at times. Yeah, no, totally. And that's why I read something about from Page being like if I, you know, went the way of Bravo fans and I lost my lost myself in the sauce. Me and Craig would already be engaged and we'd be getting married. And I felt like she was alluding to like that's what happened with the girl. But like the twofold question being, is it good for relationships? Is it good for us? I mean, I do not think that, but I don't think reality TV is in general good for relationships. And this is sort of where I, you know, think the look of the valley. Right. Yeah. Like the Bravo fan base needs to be a little bit more realistic because ultimately, like, you know, them being like she should have been more respectful, not filmed this. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, filming all aspects, you have to be a very strong person and then you have to be a very strong unit to be able to put, you know, because even very like random fights get blown up, you know, hugely on reality TV. So something that could have happened to you months ago that you've already, you know, repaired and is over, gets aired again. There's so many aspects and then people's comments. And so, I mean, aren't you part of that drama? Right? Like the pressure to be in a heightened emotional state has to impact the relationship. I'm even thinking for Lindsey, like what it must feel like to have to, like, apologize for really doing something really, really fucked up. Must be hard, because then she has to admit that like she's human. I don't know that she. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. I'd be a bad person at times as we all can be, right? Like we can all, like, go dark and deep Yeah. My advice to her was just apologize. Just own it. Own it. And she didn't. She really didn't. She really didn't know that it was the only thing she really just needed to own and just apologize and show like, I'm not always a victim. I can't apology. We could have gotten on board with everything else she said. I know. Look to me, I could have I could have been ride or die for Lindsay if she could have apologized for the sobriety stuff. Yeah. And it just said, I take an accountability for that. And I think she just admitted like that was a really fucked up thing for me to say. Like, like I feel disgusting that I said that. Like, that was a low, low moment and it's making me reconsider, like how I was a supportive partner to someone in recovery. And I feel like I and she wouldn't have been capable of that. They should've just said, Sorry, period. That's all. Kyle was like, Just say sorry, period. Like, that's all I know. But afterwards, everything. Sorry, but, but I think if you put a button a sorry you're not sorry more. No, you're not. And in relationships, like whenever I'm working with couples, I try to frame things of like, you're either working as a team or you're defending yourself and the relationships losing. So like, what do you want more? Do you want to be right or do you want a relationship? Because if you want to be right, then maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship. Yeah. I mean, yeah, write that on like an Instagram meme because I feel like maybe there Perel said it in her podcast, where should we begin? Because I basically just she is a hero. Everyone know her. You're my hero. So yeah, I don't know that being on I like it. But it also, you know, and the flip side would make yourself your relationship really strong because you're going through some real shit on TV. Like I look at Amanda and Kyle and yeah, the relationship has tons of problems, but damn, she writes hard for her man. Like so. I mean, Kyle needs to frigging appreciate for sure, but is relationships good for reality like seeing them? And I think the example you gave is exactly how I feel. You know, you watch these people on TV and it does make you critically think about how did I handle the last argument? How do I handle things? I see myself in this person, but I also see and I think that's why a few things I don't like about myself that I'd like to change, that I'd like to not like indulge and yeah, and Lindsay's a great you know, this is why we did her as our first episode because I think she triggers the crap out of both of us. But I think, you know, at least for me, I realize I have so many of the same trauma and the same, you know, fighting patterns. Like, I'm also from Florida, so we'd be loud, we'd be fighting. I also relate to her being like a powerhouse. A woman like I respect the fucking shit out of that. And I think for her it lost the sauce around this confusion around how can I be a badass woman? Or do I need to be a mom and a wife and be able to be both? I'm I'm working to be at all like you are all. You are all. I think you're all of that and more. I'm really tired. So, yeah, I mean, I think Lindsay will be back and I think Karl will be back and it will be interesting. I excited to see them together. I think that, like, it'll be interesting to see if they all shoot together again. I think it's not going to be the famous scandal of all, I think. I, I want to say I think they could be friends again. Yeah, I kind of do too. I mean, I don't think it'd be the same, but I think they could be friends, and I think that they're best as friends. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I. There's these rumors going around now that she's pregnant. This rumor is saucy. And I do love it because it involves my favorite Dorinda medley that basically she found out Lindsay was pregnant and outed her because she was was going to traitors, which you can definitely not do traitors when you're pregnant. And it's fun. Some of those challenges are very like probably physically dangerous for a pregnant person. Yeah. But also then Lindsay was saying that didn't happen. I don't know. I hope she, you know, doesn't rush things with this new guy. I do not think the new guy will be on the show, but I desperately want him to be because watching Lindsay's relationships does give me life. Whether they're good for us or for, you know, her, that's the one thing that could make me turn on her if she had this whole relationship that we don't see and that she's protecting. And that's why she wants me to still be interested in her. Like, that's going to be very hard. That's definitely what's going to happen. I can predict that for sure. So, yeah. Any other like final thoughts? You know, I mean, I feel like we said it all. I feel like there was a lot of chaos in our conversation. But I'm into it always for chaos. This was a dark and chaotic season. I'm kind of glad that over. I feel like I need a little bit of lightness now though. I guess like what is what is out there now? What do we watch, Jersey? Oh, I got to get into Duke. I, I do stand. Caroline Stanbury. I won't even do a breakdown on her because I wouldn't want to insult her in any way. Oh, my God. Never. That podcast would just be listing. Yeah, listing. Everything I'm obsessed with would be an adoration. I mean, she has reshared a couple of my posts on Instagram, So Caroline can do no wrong and I just want to put that for other bravolebrity as if you repost our podcast, you will forever be cherished. We'll never talk about you. We will never talk. Emmy and Golden Light go away. We are so easily bought so easily by our other goals. Yeah. Are there goals is to get Jamie Stein from Deep Dove? From Jamie Stein. He's an impact. He's phenomenal. We want him on the show. Our other goals are getting free. Wendy's passes to Bravocon. Yes. And we, you know, hopefully get some other guests and stuff, but share your feedback, you know, as we're growing this pod, you know, he's been such a great, you know, couple of months doing this. So we got so much. It's just fun to get to hang out again. I know. I know. I know. Like, they don't say how hard it is to have a long distance best friend. I see that meme on Instagram almost every day and I had to stop myself from sending it to you. So you don't cry every day, right? Yeah, but so tune in next week and we're going to break down someone else and it's going to be exciting. We got big plans, so keep subscribing and liking. So. Yeah. See you next week. You all me?