Gossip Session

This week on the pod, we're shaking things up with a free-for-all gossip session! We're diving into the hottest breaking news, from Jax seeking help, to the OG of the OC getting sued, plus the biggest storylines from all your favorite Bravo shows. But that's not all – we're also dishing on the latest celebrity buzz, from Jen and Ben to the Kardashians. Tune in for our unhinged take on everything pop culture!

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Shout outs: 
Deep Dive with Jamie Stein
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deep-dive-with-jamie-stein/id1562015854
https://www.instagram.com/jamiestein/?hl=en

Talk of Shame 
https://www.instagram.com/thetalkofshame/?hl=en

BravoBravoDuckingBravo
https://www.instagram.com/bravobravoduckingbravo/?hl=en
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/high-low/id1723123705

Blocked by Jax
https://www.instagram.com/blocked_by_jax/?hl=en

Chapters

• 5:38 Jax seeking treatment
• 15:21 Racquel weighing in
• 26:24 Reality tv stars in therapy
• 30:52 OG of the OC Vicky lawsuit
• 34:25 The lost Morocco season
• 43:46 The Louie restraining order case
• 49:54 The future of Jersey Housewives
• 54:47 The upcoming Bravo shows
• 1:02:58 Carl launches Soft
• 1:08:28 Dubai Housewives
• 1:10:40 Jen and Ben

Transcript

Unknown: Hello. Hello. Are unhinge friends? I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York City. We're best friends and bravo superfans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged and on camera.

Unknown: Welcome back, everyone. Sam still working on the nickname for the Podcast's listeners. Last time we had urchin unhinge urchins, and that's pretty much all I've got. Okay, so wait for the murder. Let's start with the you. Like, I want to wait for our merge. Unhinged urchins merge will be so original in this space though. So original. So we're doing something a little different today because we've been doing a lot of deep dives which require, you know, a lot of effort on our part But there's a lot of news coming out that we have a lot of things to Kiki about. So we were like, Let's just do one where it's just a full just gossip session. See how it goes. This will most likely be the most unhinged of the podcasts we've ever done. Yeah. Say goodbye to structure and hello to chaos. Yes, this is. I mean, I embrace chaos. I just did my birth chart for the first time because I never knew my birth time and because everyone's like, it's on your birth certificate. But I was like, It's not on mine. So I had to text my dad and be like, Do you have a longer version of this? And he did. And I think we went through yours, too. But mine was like, you know, because I'm a Virgo. So a very type A, you know, my birthday's the same as Lala's. And I think Tamara's my Tamara is either the same birthday of Tamara Judge or like a day after. And anyways, I did my full birth chart. And one of the things is like you're kind of an agent of chaos, of like you're just free spirited. I'd like to do a lot of creative, crazy things all the time was maybe a summary I sent you to say I have that seemed an accurate from what and then was like kind of not all of it was all over the place. I feel like the problem with it was there was like a lot of contradicting things in it that was like, you're a people pleaser, yet you do your own thing. You don't care what people think. You're traditional, but you are a feminist who's doing your own thing. Like it was a lot of like what I wasn't there weird thing where it was like, you're really into like looks or something. Yeah, it was like, you're really attractive and really popular. And I was like, I mean, I agree with both those things, but I mean, it was, it was, it was almost in the vein of like, you really care, are you saying I don't care how I look? No, I just don't think you're a vain person like it was. Make you. No, I really, like, don't actually, if I. Yeah, I really do. Yeah. And then so I went and did some other people's and they were Sam's was yours was actually one of the most unhinged ones because everyone else's was almost like just like a psychologist wrote it for them. And I was like, That is insane. But anyways, so I do share birthday or a controversy over whether I share a birthday with James Kennedy, his birthday maybe a couple of days before mine. The Internet gives a lot of different, different days. For one, his birthday is we need James Kennedy to come out and clarify his birthday for us. I mean, maybe he'll post on Instagram this year and all he posts every year. But is it different days? Yeah, I think so. Like I tried to do some research. I can't remember. If only I cared more. So big news out of the Bravo verse. Jax Taylor, who we did a breakdown on, he went to inpatient it, wasn't it? I guess it's similar to what Raquel a.k.a Rachel from Vanderpump Rules did. Right? They didn't say, all right, he's not checking into an E.R. and saying, I feel suicidal and being put into the psych inpatient that, you know, people that aren't rich maybe have to go to if they're having a mental health crisis. He it's likely a reputable treatment facility that offers inpatient care. I'd be curious which one because I think, you know, I have different opinions about the different ones and sort of like what they have to offer. It's interesting cause this coincided with Pete Davidson also coming out that he went into a wellness facility. And I think this is like a tricky thing in the world of understanding, like what is treatment and what is more like wellness and what are the difference between those things? Where is it therapeutic versus like taking a respite from the world, which I you know, I don't I think taking a respite from the world, if you have access and resource to do so is like I would love to do that as well. I think like Jack's doing, there's a part of me thinks it's really I mean, actually I do think it's very brave of him because like even on the show, they were like, have you gone to therapy? And he gave the most. Answer that I've ever heard. Which. It was too far to drive. So he bailed at the last minute. Which. Having lived in L.A., I will say my therapist is 5 minutes down the road and I don't think I would go. I mean, you could do virtual therapy. I don't understand why you had to go. Like, I feel like there's so many resources for virtual therapy, so I could give him some recommendations in California. I know there's really no excuse for why he wouldn't go, but I also think he is the type of person that probably needs he he needs to be separated from his environment. And also what I thought was really surprising is they're filming the Valley right now. So taking himself out of that, you know, means just so people who don't know reality shows. When you sign up, you get paid as a cast member per episode. So if you're not in an episode, you don't get paid. So being available and showing up to, cast events, will really determine if you get paid for an episode or not. And like this was kind of an issue on Vanderpump Rules when like Ariana would go to the beach days and stuff like it very much felt like in part she was showing up to be like, You can't edit me out like I'm going to be in every episode, like, I don't care. And I thought that was baller of her, to be honest. And so the fact that he would take himself out in the middle of filming, I felt like really showed a commitment. I also was thinking inside, well, it makes it harder for us to like question the authenticity of it. Like if if he is really willing to do work on himself instead of cater to his ego through the show like that is I think we can all look at him a little differently when we see that versus like him just going at the end or going at some other point where it feels a little more like self serving or it feels more like a publicity stunt, like this feels a little more real because he's sort of taking himself out of the show and it feels like taking allowing his like the parts of him, like his ego stuff to take a hit and say like, no, I, I need to work on myself. And he made that post about doing it for his son. And I think there's something very real there. Like if him and Britney are going through a separation and like the person who's most affected by this is Cruz, and like how difficult it must be for Cruz to, like, see, to feel this like confusion and conflict and adjustment of his parents being separated, living in different places. He's probably being shifted between different places. Or maybe they're using their family home as like his stable being and they're switching on it off. Or maybe they're struggling with figuring that out. And Jackson's realizing, like, I need to, like, get myself help because I'm making things so much harder on my son. And I don't want to do that. Because like we said when we talked about Jax in our episode, I think there is a really big part of him that like wants to be a good dad, that wants to live up to this, like legend of like who his dad was. And I think if anything is going to enable him to, like, really change himself, it's going to be that more than, like a relationship or something for himself. Like, I think it's much harder to come to change through, just like I want to change something because I realize that I'm not a good person. It's easier to say I want to change something because I don't want to cause damage to my kid or to someone else in that sort of like, sensitive way. so it came out a couple of days ago that Britney might be dating a guy from The Bachelorette or Bachelor franchise. I don't I don't dip into that world. So I couldn't really tell you anything about it. But she's dating someone, so I'm like, Wow, I wonder if that's a catalyst. I wonder if Britney is like, this separation has been going on for quite a long time with no resolution. And I think every time you catch Jax, with a paparazzi or something, he's like, Oh, no, we're working it out. This is just fighting and it's all good. And maybe there was some come to Jesus from Britney. country, pumpkin. Britney being like, Come to Jesus, Jackson. Oh, we're gone. Hell, yeah. Rot in jail forever. And then he was like, Holy crap, this is really real. And had to, like, take that in because he's been doing this thing where he's like enjoying the benefits of being separated while saying, like, we're working on it, we're working on it. And, and he's enjoying the the publicity of it. All right. Like there is something about like it's giving him a lot more attention than if it was just like the show and him and Britney were doing good. Like, the paparazzi wouldn't be that interested. so one of the things I was thinking of. She was at final season of Vanderpump Rules that he was on. And, you know, he was really kind of struggling. And Stassi saw him down and I don't remember the whole scene, but I remember it being like he was kind of stable with Britney, had on this house, was kind of moving in the right direction. But then he was still doing this, like lying, being dramatic, being like very up and down, which I don't know. I was having these like outburst almost right. There was these moments where what did he outburst on, James? I think he outburst on Kristen. Like, I can't remember exactly the different things, but I remember it just being like he would be in these situations and just like. Get disregulated and have this huge outburst. And I think Stacy saw that and was like, something ain't right here. Yeah, definitely. And he was really depressed. And actually in that moment, I really felt for him, I was like, something is not he something is not right. And that's when I really started questioning if reality TV was good for him and when he didn't come back in the whole massive firing of everyone, I was like, This is good for him. I think he needed a break. And I actually thought he seemed better, like they had crews off camera. He seemed to, you know, take on this dad role and maybe all of that was fake because we didn't really see that much of it. And then obviously when he was House of Villains, the first thing he does is like, say, this weird lie about Britney having a stroke and then back in the valley, you know, all he was doing was kind of like verbally abusing Britney the whole season. So I don't know if, you know, he was better off camera, but I don't know if, you know, it'd be interesting when he goes to this, if he gets some kind of diagnosis or. Well, it makes me think of like, again, what we were kind of talking about in our Jax podcast about the parts of him that like really want to be settled but get really bored and depressed in that life and then seek to like create some kind of chaos for himself. Like those outbursts were like him creating chaos, but trying to, like, protect his relationship a little bit, right? Like because that last season of Vanderpump, I don't remember, but I don't think he was like out bursting on Britney quite as much. It was kind of on other people. And then Britney, of course, was getting the repercussions of it because she ends up having to be the Jax apologist and the one who has to like show up as his like PR a little bit of like, it's okay, that's just Jax like. And so it was affecting her in those ways, but it felt a little like he was trying to, like, protect his home and his marriage and therefore that energy in him that can't just, like sit home and be a husband or be a dad, like needs to have like outlets. And I think being separated is allowing him probably to have those outlets more. But there's so much confusion probably within himself of like, I still want my family and I still want these things. And like when I'm there, I'm a toxic person. I'm hoping that in this inpatient work he's like working on that part of him that is, that can, like, seek to be unhinged or chaotic and can't just be settled and just be okay. Do you think he's going to come out of this? I mean, in that facility, do you think that it would be recommended to keep being on reality TV? Because I think he's committed to change. I don't know. I don't know that reality TV is is helpful for him, but he's really good at it. I mean, he is he is a I think we talked about this on the part like he's a professional reality star. So. Right. I don't know. I think as a therapist, you're not going to necessarily like tell somebody what they can and cannot do. But I think there's going to be this like accountability of like you have to recognize, like what being on these shows does to you and how that impacts your behavior and allows you to, like, play into different like cycles that are unhealthy for you and that the show can be a source of that. And obviously, like, it's not the show, it's Jack's relationship to the show and to what he needs to do on the show. I think the show can also be a really good thing for him to like watch back and have to like reflect on himself. And like if he can do that, then I think like, yeah, keep doing it. Like if again, if we can see you grow and change and show healthier sides of yourself, it may not be as exciting, but I still think it can be interesting. Yeah, I mean, I would be interested to hear that whole story and see how it plays out on the valley. another thing that came up is Rachel Levy's a.k.a. Rachel Now rebranded, came out and wrote like a notes app, which I know we're big fans of Deep Dove with Jamie Stein, which we'll reference again later, probably in the same podcast. But he talked very highly of the like facility that Rachel went to. And that he knew some of the workers there and the tree treatment people and the healers and that they were really legitimate. And I believe that I guess I'm just struggling with Rachel in general. She's really trying to heal. I think it was a smart decision now, I think Isaac but then then like she's doing this lawsuit with them and I get why she wants to do that against Tom, you know, kind of. Well, I mean, what he did was a violation. I, I don't and I think almost legally, maybe her lawyer was like, you can't really sue Tom without suing Ariana because it didn't he didn't share it with anyone. And I think it was some kind of legal advice. The trial is going ahead, which means she does have enough evidence. But I just like, why do you have to keep coming for Ariana? Like and then Tom Sandoval tried to do a reverse bench trial against Ariana to separate himself because if they lost, I guess you had sent me, like someone described it, that basically if Tom and Ariana lost, there's going to be some separation of how much each of them have to pay for accountability. Yeah. So the lawyer in separating them as defendants would kind of make Ariana have her own payment. His own payment? That was sort of, I guess, what was like described as that. And then obviously the backlash was horrible. And Tom was like, I didn't know what was being described to me, so I'm not doing it, which may be true. Like, I don't know, like he's a jerk and terrible, but like, all this stuff is so confusing and he was probably just being told, like, we have to do this to make sure that, like, you don't take the burden of everything or that, like it's not all your blame and that he may have heard that. And whatever, look, whatever goes on with him, it's like in the end, I think there's sort of two sides to this. I think that for Raquel, there is probably a place for her of like, I want to have a voice and this is the only way I feel like I'm going to be heard or validated. I think the problem that's not enough, though. I don't think it is, because I think in her podcast, people are still like like blaming her and like she doesn't feel like vindicated. And it and it feels like if she has this lawsuit and it goes in her favor, then there's like some sort of vindication for her. But I think what she doesn't realize is that, one, she's just dredging up trauma for everyone, right? Like it's just ends up retraumatizing everyone. And what happens is now she's suing another victim, right? Like now it's like victim suing victim. And that's not the way to feel healed. Also, I mean, I think what I struggle with in maybe she is a victim, of course, of Tom and grooming and all of that. But she's not innocent in this. You knew that Arianna and Tom were together and they were living together and you were sleeping with our man. Like, there's got to I struggle with seeing a real accountability with her. I mean, she obviously has shown more accountability than Tom, which is really not saying anything. But, yeah, I think there's something we should definitely at some point do a recall episode because it would be fascinating. I think that last season what was fascinating to me is there were times where she would come on camera and kind of give these speeches, like she Anna talks about this, that she would give these speeches and she would prepare them and stuff. And sometimes I'm like, Oh my God. I think it was when she was going to meet up. Actually, when she gets with Tom Sandoval around that time, she was going to meet up with the Toms at the Hotel Mandalorian or whatever Hotel Mandalorian, which I know is not the name. And she had to go tell the girls because she was still on that girl's trip at Lake Havasu and she was like, I'm leaving because of the way you treated me, and I'm going to meet the Tom's at the hotel by and like and she's with Charlie and it's just very frank. And all the girls are sitting there like, Huh? And I was like and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I can imagine. And I don't know this for a fact, but I can imagine, like before she went to do the speech, she said to herself in the mirror, not even that, not even that. She probably has been the whole time during this trip trying to figure out shyly or should I say whatever. And she's talking to a producer because that's the producer's job, is to be there and follow a story, but also help the castmembers figure out what they want to do and like support whatever they want to do because it's really their show and they're the driver. So I can imagine she went to the producers is like, I just want to leave blah, blah, blah, blah and like, what should I do and blah blah? And the producer said, If you want to leave, that is your choice. Just go to the girls and tell them you're leaving and you're going to go meet up with the times. Like that's what you're doing. If that was an Arianna or Katie, they would hear that, translate what they want to say and walk in and say, Hey, guys, I'm just like, Don't feel comfortable. I'm going to leave. Bye. And probably not even mentioned going to meet the Times because that was incendiary for no reason. I just knew that there was going to upset them, but I felt like Rachel in her mind was like, Let me say exactly the words the producer told me to say, because her pageant mind is like Hi, I'm going to leave now. I'm going to go meet up with the times. And like, obviously the girls are sitting there. Like, why would you like why would you say, I'm going to go meet up with your ex-husband? Because Katie was like getting divorced from Tom. Anyways, There were so many times during that last season where I was like, the producer talked to her about this, gave her like sort of the ideal line of like what they would want for story. She went and repeated verbatim that line. That's how I felt because some of the lines she said was very producer prepped and right. But it also felt like a lot of things she was doing were pointed to push certain buttons for people who she felt treated her badly, like she was like, this is my redemption here. I'm coming back. I'm like going to get back at people. And then she, like, took it too far. And I think a lot of the things with Raquel, like the thing that comes up for me about recall is like giving voice. Like she wants to have a voice, like starting from, like I'm thinking about that year when she was like in getting engaged to James and she's like I want to give a speech and I want to like talk, but I'm nervous to talk. And there's like something for her about, like, owning her voice and being heard. And as she's, like, figuring that out, she's like, not realizing where she's ending up, like putting her own foot in her mouth or looking like an asshole almost And she's mistaken. Like having a voice with being, like, passive aggressive or being kind of like, rude or there's almost like a social cue thing that she's like, a little bit, okay, remember, obviously we're not diagnosing, but it just feels like a little she misses some like social cues. So a great example of that is when she went to the iHeart Media Awards and she like shit on Katy's outfit. And then Katy obviously didn't even say anything. And then on her pod, she, like, did this whole apology to Katy. And then Katy is like, I just want to be out of this narrative. Like, I, like, I don't, I don't need you're insulting me. And I also don't even need your apology. I need you to just, like, keep my name out of your mouth, and she just, like, wouldn't stop. But I guess from a, like, psychological standpoint, like, shouldn't she be figuring out why she needs that so desperately and, you know, process that and not continue to look for that? Well, I think the issue is, no matter like the therapist you have, because I do think there are like good and bad therapist, I also think there are like good and bad clients. Like you can only get as much out of therapists, both based on like what they have to offer, but also like what you're willing to get. Like going back to Jax, like how many years of therapy did we see him going into where he was like blatantly lying to a therapist and you know, obviously now like his therapist could go back and like I would I would tell him to give his therapist permission to go back and watch and have some insight into some of his background because he is not a reliable narrator of his life. We saw the sessions where he blatantly just wasn't honest about like what was happening, what he was thinking, what he was feeling. And so if you're coming in that way, especially like it can't be a therapist job to know when a client is lying, we can only work with what we're being given. And obviously once you get to know someone, over time you'll start to know sort of what's what's truth and what's what's reality and what's not reality. And you can start to like use that in session, but that's like long ass work. Like that's not something that happens even in a treatment facility, especially in a treatment facility where everything is contained and you don't actually have the person living their lives and they're kind of in this like weird container. And so you can do a lot of like trauma processing and coping skills and regulating and getting people in a place to then go into the world to do like almost the real work. And so Rachel Rakow, whatever, she has a lot more work to do. She's also really young. She's you know, she came in very naive. We know she has a lot of family trauma that I don't know how much of that she's working through, how much of that she's ready to work through, because she sort of came into the treatment facility following this trauma of CPR. And like how much, you know, how do you start to separate those things? I know I'm just kind of over the narrative of Rachel so young. Like she's 29, like, get it together. Like, you're not young, naive. Well, yeah, that's a different story. But there is a big difference there. And I think, yeah, we could do a whole I know we're going to have to sideline that. I will say, because I'm also sick of podcasts about her, you know, like, yeah, we do need to that'll be like a little later because like we need to move on from Michael in general. But it's interesting because you mentioned that Jackson therapist should maybe watch the show. you know, I'm a big Kardashian, Stan, although the new Hulu show really gives you almost nothing. The only interesting storyline this past season was Kim going to therapy, and prior season, Kourtney had gone through like a therapy journey and she actually was posing really interesting questions. And to me, I saw a whole change in Kourtney. I mean, obviously she got with Travis Barker around the same time. So it was hard to distinguish what was Travis and what was therapy and what was just her becoming like emo girl time. But then maybe all three. Like sometimes things have to happen. Like it's not just therapy, it is also like, I don't know, like I feel like the past couple of months a lot of my clients are doing a lot better and it's like, Oh, it's summertime. Like everyone is just like happier in summer. And my guess is in two months we're going to go back to like stuff we're working on. And so like, yes, I think if you have a relationship where you feel good, like that's going to help you with. Like it's all going to feed into each other. Yeah. And I think in some ways the Kardashians were like, Oh, she's changing and stuff because of Travis. And I mean, even like the general public saw her change so visibly being becoming like, you know, rock, rock girl. But but now Kim is doing therapy and went to Kourtney was like, oh, my gosh, you were right. I'm doing therapy now and I'm learning so much about myself. And you had really questioned, why do I work all the time? And her therapist sort of pinpointed that she's got this trauma response probably due to Paris, but also it's got to be related to that. Kanye masks, which we won't even get into. But what I thought was even deeper, just due to, like, fame, right? Like, there's something of, like, she got famous in such an insane way that if she slows down to really have to, like, process all of that, like, she'd have to, like, look at parts of herself that she must be very afraid to look at. And so if she just keeps going forward and keeps working and keeps moving, then she doesn't have to really look at herself. So apparently the therapist watched all of the Kardashians. And I thought that was really interesting because obviously it's a treasure trove of information but just from a therapists standpoint you're not supposed to look up your client. So like if I have someone come reach out to me, I can't then go like Google them or look at their Instagram or look that's like a violation that like you're it's a really no no in ethical world. And that's why I say Jake should give her permission, and maybe they need to like watch it together, almost watch it together. if I had him as a client, I might want to do that because I think that could be really fascinating and interesting because it's not just coming back and say, I saw that scene and like it's like really sitting down Like what? Like asking him, what do you think? What's going on there? Like, Oh, what do you like? Diaby fascinating and so good. I mean, obviously there's a lot of scenes that would be fascinating for them to do. But I do think the Stasi jock scene in the last season where she really she she knows him so well and she did such a good job of pushing him to be like, you need to analyze why you caused chaos in your life for no reason. And I thought it was just really telling. but yeah, I mean, there's so many scenes that they get. I mean, just the whole having sex with Kristen on the couch while watching drive scenario would be fascinating for a therapist to break down with him, but wish him to do the same too. Yeah, so we wish him well. I'm actually really proud of him and that could be a huge change for him. So another topic that came up, which I didn't really register that much, but what's geeky about it? Vicki Gunvalson the OG of The O.C. apparently is being charged with elder abuse because of some insurance. Well, it seems like she had a client who, you know, an elder client who she was doing investments for or whatever. I don't totally understand all the financial world to doing investments for them. And it seems like maybe she was getting fees or, I don't know, all the like legal again, like I'm just once money and stuff like my brain just like blanks and I'm like, I don't care. It's just too overwhelming. But it seems like there may have been some like manipulation in fees and doing certain deals that would benefit Vicki that weren't necessarily in the client's best interest. And this was all during while the client was going through grief, her husband was sick and then passed away. And like, it definitely seems I was listening to Talk of Shame, I think shout out to talk of shame. We love her. She did. And I guess we shouldn't say let's kiki about it because that's like her. It feels like that's her thing. But we love, you know, whatever her trademark, we're honoring it and not trying to steal it. But she does a really good like breakdown of it that helps explain sort of like what happened. I think it's interesting only because if we connect it to like Brooks and like this part of Vicki that maybe disowns when she's doing something wrong because she's only kind of like looking at like the immediate need or something like there's something in Vicki where like she it seems like maybe she does get herself into situations intentionally or unintentionally where she like willfully doesn't want to look at like maybe the truth or the facts of it. And this feels like another example of it where like, how much did she realized she was doing harm to somebody? Probably not. But like. I don't know that that was always coming up for me when I saw it. Yeah. What came over me? Just knowing the past of her being on O.C.. I think someone had accused her of this before. I mean, I know there's been accusations over the seasons thrown at Vicki and that she's been a bit Teflon about it. Other than obviously the Brookes cancer thing, anything related to Brooke's. But so a part of me felt like she probably works with elderly clients. This probably if you work with a number of elderly clients and you have like a name, this could just be a lawsuit that happens. And maybe there was no because I did see a version where they were saying, insurance agents do move these fees around and maybe the client just wasn't informed or so it could be nothing. So I kind of but it does speak to like what I'm saying about this. Like if you work with a lot of older clients and you know that this is something that can happen, wouldn't you be doing like more due to and you know, you're famous, so like people are more likely to come at you because they know you have things like you would do more due diligence to make sure everything is copasetic. And to me, again, it speaks to the way that like Vicki just like kind of turns her head to things that she doesn't want to like face or look at or that make her feel like uncomfortable or unsafe. Yeah, I guess I just wanted to kind of give her the benefit of the doubt and see how it played out, because I was like, this could just be kind of nothing. I do really like her this season on O.C. as a friend of I think that's a really good role for her. I love that she's the OG of The O.C., but I think the last few seasons of her on this roller coaster ride of Dating Man was getting exhausting. I was not happy with her on Dorinda's season of Girls Ultimate Girls Trip. Yeah, apparently I've read that she was amazing on the Morocco season that we may or may not ever see. If you like another lawsuit, you know, for my professional opinion, you will never see Morocco buy it at this point. Like we. Yeah, like we should not hold our breath. We should not hold our breath to see it. And it's like a mix. To me, I have a lot of like mixed feet. I want to see it because of the star power that's on it. And like also Morocco, so beautiful. Like such a cool place to like, see. And sometimes these ultimate girl strips are like about like seeing. Like, that's what I love when I see the housewives go to like other un vacation places. Like I love seeing where they go and like what they're doing there and that's so fun. But I also really, you know, as someone who wants to honor women and women's voices, like if someone's saying they were put in a situation where they felt violated or sexually assaulted, I want to believe them. I also like Feel for Carolyn and sharing like some of her, you know, childhood trauma and like how that's impacting how she's processing that. I mean, I read some of the court documents just out of curiosity and also just to know what's going on sort of in the business right now, because it was related to obviously Batman. He's like reality reckoning. But yeah, reading some of the documents, especially from Caroline's point of view, it was really telling. I think she talks about how she had been abused as a child and that this was, you know, triggering for her. Also some of the things she said that happened in the bathroom. It it crossed a line. And I think what also added to it was, I guess all the women sort of took Brandi's side, because, again, I think from everybody else's perspective, I'm sure it did seem like they were just drunk and fooling around and it wasn't that big of a deal. And from Caroline's perspective, like she's in that freeze PTSD. Right. Doesn't know what to do. And it probably took her a while as she probably came home and really processed what happened. I think where I struggle is, yeah, some producers were named in this lawsuit, which I think is probably really damaging to their career. I think from a producer standpoint, you know, we're not trained therapists, we're not trained, you know, security, we're not trained in sexual assault. We're not we get the same H.R. training that you at whatever job you have, get like we don't get an in-depth and more than that. Most producers are freelance and so we go company to company. We don't really have resources. We have no commitment to the company. And, you know, all these Bravo fans kind of lash out like Potomac had a bad season. Fire everyone. Atlanta had a bad season, fire everyone. And I think they don't realize this. There's like real people whose real jobs are being affected. And we have no guarantee, like we do a season of the show, and then we're off for six months and then maybe the show comes back. Maybe you don't get a phone call and there's no guarantee and like there's no stable career in this industry for us on the other side of the camera, you know, we're all out there just trying to survive. what I thought was missing from the reality reckoning is really that all these crews are not unionized. We have no protections and we have no guarantee of a job. And how does that really promote creative investment in these projects? Because you're just trying to create chaos to keep your job. So, you know, from a producer standpoint, I can imagine that you're dealing with so many cast members, 100 cameras, you're watching monitors, you're not paying attention to what's happening in a band. You're when the door is closed and you can't know what is violating to one person when it's not maybe not violating to another. And I don't know how much of it they saw, how much like but again, like you can't know some as a producer, I don't feel like it should be your job to necessarily know the inner workings of what would be retraumatizing to someone or what the violation would be, especially if you're not privy to the whole thing. Yeah. And, and do we have someone on set that is just H.R., especially on these bigger shows like in Morocco or other countries? I mean, it would be helpful. I would be supportive of that. And actually I think something like that would be a smarter thing to advocate for than you. Some of the things Bethenny was asking for that didn't even make any sense. So I don't know. I mean, I think the lawsuit will have ramifications. I am disappointed that we're not going to see Morocco. It may or may not. I think in general, it's like show it, let it out there in the public. But when it comes to sexual assault like that, I think you're right. Like there's such a gray area and I don't know that it should be up for debate in the masses because what Caroline experience is personal to her. And what's a violation or not? A violation is personal to you. And and sometimes you could be cool within the moment and then reprocess it. And, you know, I think with sexual assault, like just in general, the black and white of like what's legal or illegal is only part of the conversation because there are gray areas of consent. There are gray areas of processing this trauma, especially because Caroline had this in her past. So anyways, I would have liked to see it, but it continues. I mean, it'll be it'll be an interesting lawsuit and it could have huge changes as far as the industry if this goes forward, if Bravo loses. So yeah. And maybe necessary changes, I don't know. Like it makes me think of like what are the mental health supports on a set? Like even if they have them, it does it feel like a safe mental health place. It feels like is the mental health clinician, you know, are they aligning with the the production company and therefore, like, what is their incentive to like keep the person there despite whatever mental like let me just get you regulated enough to keep going versus like how do we really take care of you and what's like, you know these stakeholder buy ends and how does that affect like the potential amount to health care that gets that would be given to people on sets like this? Because if the mental health worker is, you know, being paid by the production company and the production company is like having them there to keep everyone good so they can keep filming like that influences then the mental health person and saying like, I lose my job if this person wants to go home or like, right, like this puts me in threat and like doesn't make it like necessarily the safest set up for anybody or the most ethical set up for anybody. So yeah, typically on shows, I've worked for any time, there's been a mental health physician on camera or even really off camera. It's they're being paid and by the cast member and that's kind of important and I think that is important. So the cast member has to like pay to have a support person there or film with. Yeah, I mean it has to be their person because they have to have allegiance to them and they have to book them, they have to find them like we can't be involved and take it. And that would be really complicated going into another country because a lot of like mental health licensing is based on like you can only treat in the, in the state that you're licensed. So you couldn't necessarily bring like your therapist even if you had all the money to ship them and bring them and pay for them to stay like they might not legally be able to. Practice in Morocco like that. That's not necessary. So, yeah, it's really complicated. Once they leave there, they're like state that their locality is and especially the country. So, I don't know. It's definitely interesting. I mean, are reality reckoning that we want to start is the fact that only one in four reality show producers creators are women. So it's still a majority male. Right. And I think about like how much more women are like just sensitive and like, understand. Yeah. Well, it's just interesting because such a huge backlash against this season of Vanderpump Rules, which was still nominated for an Emmy, was this is very male centered male gaze. They didn't really it's about a male redemption arc and not about like we're trying to tell women stories for women, but they're being told by men some summit. Right. And so I was sending to a screenshot from I can't remember the show and it was all male producers and I was like, This is going to be my new habit, like noticing if only men made these shows. But anyways, another lawsuit in the Bravo versus. I honestly don't understand. Margaret And, well, it's Louie's lawsuit on Real Housewives of New Jersey that then Teresa decided to expose that Marge is like, is it a lawsuit? Is it a lawsuit? Or is it like order of protection? Okay, so I actually message I'm so confused. Yeah, we're doing a lot of shout outs today and I'm going to tag them all in our description, but I actually message Bravo docking bravo. The name, you know, coming after Denise Richards. Bravo, fucking bravo. Famous quote. I message her because I know she was doing a lot with these lawsuits and like breaking them down. She did a lot on Tom Girardi. That's really great if you are interested in that. But I was like, I am so lost. Like, what is this I believe? Or how they say in the show was that you're right, it's a restraining order that she wants to get against Louie. But none of it made sense because A, she once his restraining order which typically this happened in with Raquel to like you can go an immediate either order of protection or temporary restraining order that's like okay until we resolve this, just don't be right. Well, it's always temporary. And then you go to court to decide whether it's going to be instated and for how long it will be instated. But it seems really weird to me if they broke up three years ago or plus because she's he's been with Teresa and now they're married, like, why are you still going after this restraining order then? What I don't understand and I'm not victim blaming. I really don't even understand. Is that why if you want a restraining order against someone, are you then messaging people within their circle or on the TV show that they're on to like give order or be involved? Or then you don't really want to be away from like this part about like bringing a lawsuit onto TV where you can't actually share what's going on. Because my guess is she has some sort of evidence of current harassment that makes her feel like she is valid for like because you have to show evidence to get a to get the lawsuit approved. And whatever her evidence was clearly wasn't good enough because they ended up getting they favored and Louis side and it was declined. But like I think that's the problem is like you guys, it could been three years ago, but my my guess is she's saying that he's still presently harassing her despite whatever his relationship is or what's going on in his life, maybe. And the marriage evidence was probably him proving like you're you're harassing me, like. Right. Which, again, what upsets me so much about Real Housewives of New Jersey is that it's so clear that Louis is shady on many levels and just let it play out. You don't need to like for like we can just let him, like, get read on the screen and we're all going to be like, Oh, okay. This guy's like, Yeah, we just see his face and we're all a little creeped out. You don't need to do more. You don't need I mean, him saying he wears the grandpa's pajamas, right? Like he's creepy enough. Just let him be creepy. Why are you trying to get him? Like, don't like every time they try to get him. I'm on Louie's side, and I'm honestly so mad about. I think you message me this, too. You're like, Why am I on Team Louis? Why is this happening? Right? Like, they make me want to, like, defend Louis, and I'm like, why do I want to defend this guy? Because deep in my soul, I know I don't want to. But when you bring all this surface stuff that makes you guys look like the you guys look like the harassers, you guys look like the ones who are the problematic. Yeah. And it's just like, just let him be weird on camera and let's just, like, make an opinion. Why do you have to get him? And I want two rules to happen on housewives. And this goes back a little bit to the early days of reality TV. I don't know when these rules started changing so much. I think because the audience is savvy, the cast is too savvy, and we can break the fourth wall. But my issue is, if it didn't happen on camera, it didn't happen. you have to be able to give enough of it to the camera that it makes sense. And it's not just all this like hearsay and like bits and pieces of something like even hearing about this lawsuit because it's a lawsuit, they're not allowed to share a lot about it. And so it's like then and it was happening presently, so I guess like it made sense to bring it in. But it's like if we can't hear enough about it to make sense of it, it really just makes us feel confused. And my second thing is stop digging up dirt off camera about people and bringing it on camera, which goes along with the first rule, obviously. But it's like just meet someone like I've been watching old episodes of O.C. for a future episode that we want to do, and I'm like, Oh, it's so fascinating to just watch these women's interactions. And yeah, some interaction I watched was Heather from O.C. and Tamra and Vicki and they were at this dinner party and Heather's like, They keep cutting me off and they won't, like, let me talk or. And then Tamra and Vicki are like, she's no fun. Like, just loosen up and get drunk and have fun. And I was like, That's the interaction. That's interesting. It's just interesting the dynamics between these women and how they interact. Like you finding out some dirt on Luke like no, it would be more interesting, like you were saying is play out their wedding season, have the prenup be a storyline, have his just general creepiness wearing grandpa's pajamas, be the story. Like let them have that conversation on camera of like how it happened that they decided not to get a prenup. I want to see that. I don't want to see like all this other fluff. And I do think it has so much to do with like people are so aware, they need to bring something to get screen time and to get validated. And so they do all this work and it's like trust, like especially someone like Marge, like you are interesting enough as you are, and you ruin it by by going too deep and trying to create something that like isn't there, that trying to create this like conflict that that you think is making you look better, but really just makes you look bad. Well, and I have to say, maybe this is Meghan King Edmonds no longer Edmonds anymore faults, because when she exposed Brooke's cancer scam, that was iconic, obviously. But now everybody wants to kind of dig up on these new guys, the controversy. But like with Louie, it's like he can't talk about most of this stuff. Theresa can't talk about most of the stuff. Marge shouldn't be talking about any of this, to be honest, because none of her business like, doesn't add up and obviously caused the absolute demise by another thing. So the finale of Real Housewives of New Jersey has aired most likely. We just haven't watched it yet. But anyways, and then they're going to have this reunion that's not a reunion. It's just them recapping, which is going to probably be really weird. Apparently, there's a whole fight that we don't see where Dan. L throws a pitcher, pitcher or drops a glass pitcher. I'm sure there was a lot of reasons why they didn't air it, but it's really hard for Bravo because they can't edit anything out. And these women are actually not supposed to talk about this in their in their contract. If something it's edited out, they're not supposed to go to the press and talk about it. But these the cast is so powerful that they can't sue them for that because it would just cause even more controversy. But they're getting the repercussions now, because I read that it's on pause now. It's on pause until at least 2025. And like, who knows if it's going to come back? Who knows and what form it's going to come back? Andy said on a live radio cast that they're going to do all new faces. But then when I saw the actual clip of what he said, it was hilarious because this woman was just going on and on and on and she was just like, Teresa doesn't work, molester doesn't work. And they don't work because like, it was like our podcast. And then, Andy, lady, come to us. Well, you could be our guest. Yeah, you're going to be our guest. But it goes. And you just at some point was like, I got to cut this off. And she was like, maybe it's new faces. I don't know. Let's wrap this up because you're not a producer on the show and you knew stop talking to me. So. But then it got like reposted as like Jersey is going to be an all new cast. And I was like, that is not what happened. And I love how the Internet just simplifies everything, all the context and just go with the answer that you think will get the most clicks. But I would love anyone who has seen a good breakdown of this lawsuit. And Marge is involvement in it. I mean, I guess people are really obsessed with her bringing those like funeral flowers. I don't know. It's such a housewives trope that I was like, I guess it's funny. I mean, I guess it goes back to what we were talking about last week. There are some real ponytail warriors in this bunch and it was really funny, but the way it was being, it was a good move. But go back and listen to our March podcast because the conversation that happened between her and Jen FESSLER before sending that and like what result, how that even happened, just proves so many of our points about her wanting to show that she is the one who is in the wrong, wants everyone to rally around her and like it proves everything we talked about in our podcast. So go back and listen to that. Yeah. And I mean, Teresa's not wrong. She's doing a lot to deflect. She clearly just did this. And I actually thought that scene with Jen, I've seen a preview clip where she sort of admits to it. But the scene with Jen FESSLER, where she absolutely loses her mind about this meeting with the lawyer, even happening kind of is is very telling and is exactly on point with what we're talking about in the part. But also, it's like, you know, you did that like, you know, you did it and you know, she has proof. So why do all of this? Just admit, look, why not just stay with Jen FESSLER? I'll tell you what's going to happen in that meeting, because I know, like, that's where I struggle with someone who knows that they lied or they know that they did something like and then they keep trying to, like, just admit to it, you know, like we were talking about with O.C., the Heather Katie fight, which I also absolutely hate because it wasn't on camera. You're digging up dirt. What's happening? But I think with Heather, it doesn't seem like a big deal. No, I guess Heather, like, accidentally tagged Katie in a Instagram post and also was asking around about her, and then she gets really defensive and crazy. I mean, it's coming off of Katie accusing her of calling the paparazzi, which I guess is some kind of a sensitive subject for her. But also, I'm like, why doesn't she just say, yeah, I was asking around about you because I want to know about you because that's a normal thing to do when you're about to meet someone. And she does the old school O.C. Newport Beach thing, where she's at ladies at lunch, and she says, What's the deal with Katie? And I think Shannen brings up You did that to me when you came on. And she did. She was ladies at lunching it like, let's get this far. This is our next one. Yeah. So we're going to get into all that. We're going to do a Heather episode that's going to be our next episode. So if you have thoughts on Heather Dubrow, please send them in to us because that's super helpful to answer questions too. Jumping off of all the Bravo news, there's a bunch of new shows in development that that's been announced, which is exciting because I think we were going off about Bravo being the parent ified child child of reality TV like scared to. Do anything new. So they're doing a dating show with Luann, Shannon, Giselle and Ashley, and they're also developing a Berkshires based what is Dorinda's house called again? Bluestone Manor looks similar. They said it's going to be similar to, like, Vanderpump Bella, where she's going to have like a young staff come in and she gets to be like the matriarch. And I'm excited for that because I feel like Dorinda is at her best when she feels in charge and when she feels like she gets to be kind of like above everyone. I think when she feels too much in the fray, she drinks a little too much and then things can go south. But I'm excited for that. I'm also excited for the dating. So show like, I think I'm kind of sad that Sonja's not going to be there because I feel like Lou and Sonja, just like their energy together, is so fun and chaotic. And it's like, what I want to watch. I agree. Okay. So first on the Dorinda show, I think that they should do a Bluestone Manor show. I had a little bit of a different concept for that. I was thinking it was my pitch for my during the show was more like either holiday based like a Halloween like special. So it's like Halloween, Christmas, like spring, summer, fall. It could also just be a rotating thing. I think Khloe Kardashian sort of had a show like this where it was dinner parties. And I was thinking it was more like a dinner party special where like during the host for the week and a eclectic group of housewives and celebrities. And that could be fun. Yeah. And we just see them. And, I mean, maybe it's still going to be that I struggle with the young staff. I watched the first couple episodes of Vanderpump Villa and didn't really like it and then just never picked it up again. Oh, I finished it. It's so good. Go watch it. Yeah. So maybe I would need to revisit that. I wouldn't love the the staff being the main focus. I would love, like, more of the guests and the reality stars just because I think her ultimate girls trip was so great. But on the dating show front, I totally agree with you. I think Sonia should have been involved. I'm struggling right now with Luanne and Shannon because a Shannon she she's such Debbie Downer and Archie that I am like, and we're going to do Shannon, too, in the future. I have so much to say about Shannon, but Shannon, like, can be fun. But she's to me, she's not fun. Well, I'm struggling with her coming off this DUI and then she's going to be on this dating show. I just think she's so much better single. Like she kind of jumped. And again, we're going to send her thoughts about Shannon Beador because we're going to do a whole episode. But she jumped from her husband to John to now she's being single. I feel like she's the best she's ever been. And I think relationships are really looks amazing. Yeah, relationships are super toxic. And I think as part of her DUI, she was sort of processing that or she talks about like ending her relationship with John was like crucial to like the healing process of learning how this DUI happened to her. Also, she's like she's still drinking, but like trying to moderate. Luann was sober for many years. I don't like I feel like they never dived into this. An ultimate girls trip. Real Housewives of New York reunion kind of thing, where they were in on the island or whatever. She's still drinking. Like, I feel like she's drinking again, but I don't know. I don't know. But, yeah, I. I didn't even think about that. So I'm glad you're bringing that up. This idea of, like, where both Luann and Shannon are people who, when they are drinking, like they've had some really bad consequences from drinking too much and to bring them into a show that is going to be dating and what's going to make it fun And I think that's what's so fun about Lu and Sonja is like, they can be sober and they're like cool. Like they don't even need to drink to bring like chaos. Chaos. And because I don't remember them drinking much at Crappy Lake, I don't know if you remember, but I don't remember like there being a lot of I know they went to that bar that one night, but like it didn't feel like there was so much daytime chaos. Like, they were definitely not drunk. Um, Estonia was like, naturally drunk, basically. Right, right. Which is like, maybe there's something more going on there. But yeah, I mean, I think a fifth person would have been harmful to Ashley in Jersey. Well, I mean, Ashley's so much younger than all of these women. Like, isn't she the same age as like the cast of Summer House so her in the mix with these like. Yeah. She's in her mid thirties for sure. So yeah it's definitely to be with these like 50 and 60 year old women but I mean that's what she isn't that what she is mostly when she's on Potomac anyway she's Yeah. Or women dates in that age range of her ex-husband but are they going to have guys specifically for each girl because they all have such a diverse different energy of who they would want to date? I mean, Luann is going to carry well, maybe it's going to be like a MILF manor where it's just like here are the array of milfs and here are all the young men for that. And let's let the games begin. Oh, they should bring out like like Shep and Austin, like just bring on all like the single guys of make those. Well, I wish you could see that would be chaos that would be on his I'm making a bar face if I see Shep hitting on Lujan. I mean I want to see, you know, Shep hitting on Shannon. That's what. Oh, my God. Shannon with Shannon with any men hitting on her will be really funny because she. So yeah. I take it back. I take it back. Yeah. This is going to be hilarious. Yeah, I guess I just like, I want Shannon to be a healed person and I don't know if this is in that direction, but I wonder if it's going to be like dating, but like also like sisterhood. If anyone watch the new season of Love Island with Ariana like. Yes. It's a lot about dating and about finding love and like, whatever, but that actually was like the least interesting part of it. The more interesting part of it was like the sisterhood that happened between the women on that show. And I could see that happening here and like you're making it dating because that creates like conflict and something like interesting to happen that enables like the sisterhood to come together even more as opposed to like what we're seeing on housewives where it's like, it's not no longer about sisterhood. It's about like, who can I throw under the bus? Oh, God. So, I don't know. I'm pro it. I want to see it. I'm excited. I'm glad that Bravo is, like, willing to go outside of their comfort zones and try some risky, newer things and stop being parented aside. And, like, let's play a little. Yeah, I'm excited for new season of Southern Charm, too. I'm excited. I mean, we have a lot of shows that people are sort of aging out of. So they got they got to start taking some risks or else we're going to have nothing on TV, especially with Jersey being paused. Atlanta is going to take so long to edit because of all this mess with Kenya. I've got some low hopes for summer house, though. Should we talk about soft? Oh, yeah. Okay. No, wait. We didn't put out our list. We did not. But we need to talk about. Okay, there's a lot of summer house updates. Lindsay's having a girl, which was presented to her in Italy by the new boyfriend, mystery boyfriend, also, which I don't think a lot of people picked up on. Okay. They're in the shooting window of summer house. She was in Italy. So there's going to be a couple episodes that Lindsay's not going to be. I think Lindsay's not going to be a full time cast. We've talked about that. I think that's fine. I mean, she's clearly there a lot. I, I don't know. I don't think she's there that much. I mean, they showed like one weekend that she was there doing a lot. And then I really haven't seen her there. I saw a clip of Jessie Solomon singing and she was in the car with him. So that's why I was like, but I think it was around the same time as so Karl launched his sober bar and it's called Soft, which like makes if we hadn't had the soft comment from last season, it is a good name because like soft is like soft drinks, like sodas and things that are not alcoholic. So like I love I kind of love the pettiness though of it being linked to and it makes me think like, did he was that knee before or after? It's kind of it was definitely after, I would say, based on just timeline because didn't Lindsay just shut it down and then he didn't even start working on it till after they broke up. But also, he came out and said, oh, it's inspired by my time in Italy because they call like nonalcoholic drinks soft there. I mean, we call it soft drinks of soda. But, you know, he's like nothing about Lindsay is like it served a dual purpose. Like whether he thought about it like, you know, he thought about it. I love it, though. I love it because it's petty, but it's not like aggressive petty. It's like fun. Like, this is fun to me. It's fun. And I mean, you know, I think blocked by Jack's another account we love we're doing a lot of shoutouts day was saying you know a sober bar is just a cafe which is true but but I love a cafe. Yeah. I mean, so in L.A., it's a big movement. A lot of people in L.A. don't drink and made it their whole personality, along with healing and crystals and a lot of other things, which is healthy. I'm not judging. And so there are some sober bars and stuff here. Someone here initially came up with the idea. I was like, Oh, this is a good idea. I think this could a New York doesn't really have something that's specifically driven to people who don't drink anymore, but it is obviously just you could go to a regular cafe as well. But I mean, I guess for someone who doesn't drink but wants to go on a date, it's a little sexier to go to an alcoholic bar than just like, yeah, see, I'm into it. I think it's a great idea. I think it supports like more people. And I think there are more people in New York who are on like sobriety journeys and don't necessarily have like cool places to go and then are forced to go to bars and like that can put things in jeopardy and create issues. So yeah, it's going to open in Brooklyn. Apparently he has this truck that he's doing for promo. I think the fact that he comes from Loverboy comes from the show. It'll bring cash. I mean, I know there is a bar in Brooklyn that James Murphy from LCD Soundsystem opened in like four years. We would go there just because we knew it was James Murphy's Yes. That's that was the other point I wanted to make was that like a Bravo person opening a bar or a restaurant or whatever, they're opening like it's not going to be. It's not going to get business because it's like a cool spot to go. It's going to get like, no. One, people don't go, like if we tally who's going to surf or sports and Sandy is or something about her who are just going there to go there because they like sandwiches or because they want to go to a bar. Like maybe that's 10% of the business. The other, you know, 80, 90% is people are going because they want to go for something like Bravo type experience. And so like I don't think he's like in opening it, it's not like this is going to be like people are just going to come here because they're not alcoholic and they want to like it's going to be like, this is another Bravo business and that's going to be the base of it. Yeah, it's funny, I haven't gone to something about her because I'm waiting for you to come to L.A. so we can go together, and then we'll talk about it on the pod. But I like past it the other day in West Hollywood, and I accidentally it wasn't really accidentally made. I was with two friends who don't watch Bravo, which it's really surprising. Never even my friends, to be honest. But we were watching them, we were walking past and I was like, Oh, this is the new place that the girls from Vanderpump Rules like opened. And I was like, it's open for like 4 hours a day, basically. And as I was saying it, some woman was walking in or whatever. It was closed at the time. It was like 7:00 because it's literally open from like 10 to 4:00. This woman's like it's open from 10 to 4. It's not 4 hours. And it was like, that's no how do you have a prime location in West Hollywood that's not cheap. You also spent two years to open this place and you're open for like you're not they're not even open seven days a week. So I'm sure they're making money and I am no shade to the business, just any regular restaurant. It wasn't a Bravo business. It would not be as successful as it is. No, because you can't be open for that little amount of time and just sell sandwiches and make your rent. Right. But anyways, so I support soft. I think I think Summer House this season is going to be really good, actually. And they're bringing in some new people. I know. I'm curious where it's going to go. I think they're going to have to do a change, though, with like Paige and Kyle and even Karl, like people who maybe seem like they're aging out of sharing a house in the summer because they kind of already have. And yet we're still like kind of buying into it, but I think they need to like change the format a little. Yeah, I think Kyle and Amanda are at a wedding in Italy now, so there'll be a couple episodes where the OGs are not on the show, so it should be interesting to buy season. I don't really have too much to say about the Dubai season. Just watch it. It's so good. I love Dubai. I love Caroline Stanbury. We are basically a Caroline and Stanbury Stan account. Like we only do this for her. Yeah I really. So last season she. And yet we'll never talk badly about her. I know. Na no. And actually this isn't talking badly at all. But you know when she married Sergio last season, I think we just got, you know, a peek into sort of their relationship. And I was really proud of her this season for putting way more out there, especially B she was so buttoned up, but she's putting it all out there. Oh, yeah. And like I, she does this therapy session that's on her Instagram if you want to watch it, and the therapist is telling her that you're mothering him. He obviously has a bit of a mama's boy complex with his mom because you see that play out, too. And he overhears this or she tells him about it and he's like so angry. Like, he's listening in. There's like a book clip of him. Like, like, what are they talking about? Like, which is a good reason not to do therapy at home, by the way. But so he gets really mad. But it's also like I think maybe this touched a chord though. I love this. The scene in the most recent episode, they're all at the airport to go on their trip and then surgery and like it's supposed to be just a girl trip. And Sergio comes in and all the women are like, Oh, fucking, no. Like, we're not having him come again like you. And then he's kind of like, they're playing and he's like, Yeah, I'm coming, I'm coming in, girl. And then he's like, Just kidding. I'm going to do this thing. It was really it was a killer. And I think so. Caroline Brooks, she's really interesting. I would love to see a couple more seasons of her so we could do a breakdown of her, because I feel like there's a lot going on there. I feel like at the end of the season I could do a breakdown or we could start to do a break down. It could be like an initial breakdown. Yeah, because provisional there was even some. There was a scene with her mom like. Season. It was edited, quite bizarre in my mind, like there was a lot missing, but it was fascinating, especially her relationship with her ex. But so she accused Caroline of her friend. She, like, lived with her gay friend. What was his name like? Michael. Michael. Yeah. Michael. She was living with her friend Michael before moving into her new house with Sergio. And Caroline, Brooks accused Michael of saying that he pays all of Caroline's bills and supports her and pays for her bags and her clothes and whatever. And like Michael, I was like, I need a michael. I was like, Yeah, like was the problem. Yeah. It was like, if Caroline Stanbury and again, this is a Stan account. We'll never say anything bad about her, but like, if, you know, like, go her, like, if that is the situation she got, run it for her. Like, teach me, teach me. I need that mother. Me, I need I need you to be my mother. Carole, she's not even married to him. She does have to sleep with him. He's fun as hell and he pays for everything. Like what? Can I have a mike? Where's the problem? What is the problem? And like, I hope I want her to just own that and be like, Yeah, my friend loves me that much. I think they did do a funny Instagram post because he there was some running joke on Instagram where he took a Barbie doll of her and was taking her all around Europe and stuff. And they posted that and be like, Michael, paying for my trip to Paris. And I was like, Damn, she is funny. She is like in on the joke, like, and I feel like she's been like that since Ladies of London. Like she's always been a little bit in on the joke of her and like willing to, like, laugh at herself and I don't know. Caroline Stanbury, we love you. Yeah, she. She has that class element and ladies of London that, like Heather Dubrow has. But then, you know, that's not her real personality. And I think we're seeing more of her real personality now. So but she but she also showed that in ladies think about that like sleepover moment where she gets into like she's in like some like one unicorn onesie and like and she's like, I think she's like giving who is it, Juliet's husband or somebody like a lap dance? And like, she's like, it's all fun. It's all just, like, in fun and games and, like, she does. I think she's always, like, had this, like, one side of her that's like, very like, I'm classy. I'm from this, like, certain particular place, and I let my hair down. I'm loose. I'm willing to, like, laugh at myself and and I love that, definitely. So I put this on because we talked about it a lot this week, but I don't think we have that much to say. Somebody had requested from me for us to do Jen and Ben and the breakdown of their relationship. And I think a lot of people are fascinated by it because there's this media war sort of happening where sources from Ben side saying something, sources from Jen side is saying something. And I was fascinated by Jen's like vanity project of the greatest love story ever told. I do think that this whole thing to me, if I could wrap it up in one sentence without even going too deep, feels like it's just a validation of, like, the patriarchy where, like, we see Jen being, like, torn down as, like a woman making choices, marrying men, like, doing things, and like where Ben kind of like, gets off pretty scot free and all of it. There's not a whole lot of, like, accountability or focus on like and there's a lot I feel like there's so much to be said about Ben and like the type of person he seems to be and the way he's moved through his career and through relationships and through the world. And yet it feels like so much of the focus ends up being on Jen. And like, I think she's more interesting, probably like we tend to be and I wonder if she's more interesting just because we tend to feel it more acceptable to look at women through an emotional lens than we do men because of society and patriarchy and misogyny. And I don't know, it feels too rooted in all of that for me. Yeah. So Jamie Stein, who we've already referenced, Deep Dove with, Jamie Stein did a break down of this and it was just so amazing, so interested in this topic list. I don't even care about this topic topic. And it was really interesting to me. Yeah, I mean, it's like a two hour pod, so like, you know, break worth it. Yeah, worth it. So I think he says everything in a better way than we could, honestly. But I will say the frustration for me is, is that Ben is not getting I think Ben has a bit of a love bomb or definitely a love bomber. I think he has serious addiction problems and I think he's getting off scot free in this because Jen puts it all out there and I think Jen is at least trying Jennifer Lopez is trying to, like, work something out. Is she doing it? Well, probably not. But at least she's in the right way. I think it's very hard to. You really deep work like that in a public way. There's a reason why therapy is something you do confidentially and in a room where other people can't see it. Because to really access those parts of you, it's really hard to do with the anticipation of what an audience reaction is going to be. so we keep it about a lot of different things. So much so what did you guys like? What didn't you like? I know this format was a little more chaotic, but we're cool with that. If you want us to do this again, let us know and we'll do it again. And if you hated it, also let us know that you hated this So thanks for listening. And we'll be back in two weeks.