Heather Dubrow from "Real Housewives of Orange County"

In this episode, we're taking on the Queen of Champs! Miss Fancy Pants herself, Heather Dubrow from the Real Housewives of Orange County. We break down her need for control, her early conflicts with Shannon Beador, and her signature condescending tone. Of course, we take it all back if we get an exclusive invite to one of her famous Nobu dinners. Listen now! 

Chapters

• 1:29 Intro Real Housewives of OC
• 3:39 Intro Heather Dubrow
• 7:06 Heather came on to camp!
• 11:22 Heather seen as an actress
• 18:12 Heathers upbringing vs what she wants
• 22:17 Heather vs. Shannon
• 25:30 Heather talking down to others
• 32:12 Heather's return
• 44:30 Emotional disregulation in reality tv
• 52:48 Is reality tv good for Heather?
• 53:45 Is Heather good for reality tv
• 58:15 Should Heather move to RHOBH

Transcript

00:00:00 Unknown: Hello. Hello. Are unhinge friends? I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York City. We're best friends and bravo superfans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged and on camera.

00:00:30 Unknown: Welcome back. Hello. Are unhinged unicorns? Unicorns, don't they? I'm driving that So today we're doing a reality star from the first Real Housewives franchise. Real Housewives of Orange County. I remember watching it when it started. I think I was still in high school. So if I'm being honest, The O.C. is probably the one I watched, like last of all the franchises. I probably besides maybe like some of the newer ones like Salt Lake and things like that, but like The O.C. was like not top priority for me. And I always felt like this aversion to it. I can understand that because it is very different than the other shows because I think the other shows sort of took what the O.C. belts and turned it into this like, mega franchise of like rich women. And the earlier seasons did have more family drama closer to Jersey. Also, Orange County isn't you know, New Jersey has just a very clear, distinctive character to it. Not only the people, the place, Orange County, it's a bit generic. It's not like L.A. because people aren't really trying to be actors or actresses. You know, it's sort of suburban, but upper upper class suburban, it's sort of the women have more. So a very specific population of like conservative Californians. And so already I'm like getting that from like people who are very it feels very white, white. It feels very conservative. It feels very and we were kind of debating like old money, new money. It's probably got a little bit of both. But like the stuffiness of it definitely feels very like old money. And yeah, there's something about it that I'm just like, I'm, I felt like I don't have interest in these women's lives. And I think I came into it around the time of like Vicky or what I was introduced to it. I was watching the season of like Vicky and Brooks and like the cancer scandal. So it was like kind of an exciting time to come into it. But I just remember like, I don't think I've ever even seen the first couple of seasons, if I'm being honest. Yeah, well, it's interesting because I think it's a very patriarchal housewives like it was very much set up like men who work and women who, you know, reap the benefits of their rich husbands. And these were housewives. Yes. And then Vicky was actually the only one. Those early seasons who was really working and even this most current season with Jan and what she's going through, trying to figure out how to like get a credit card for the first time just feels like very like 1951. Um, but actually so today we're going to conquer Heather Dubrow who's, who fits into that mold. But also we actually want to say she doesn't. I feel like she is the one who is different than all the others. Like not only does she have brown hair and a sea of blonds, but she's also Jewish. I think that's like a big thing that makes her different. I think she's not she doesn't come from such like. I think she comes from old, stuffy fans. You know, she is the fancy pants comes from old stuffy money in Chappaqua. And if anyone knows New York, that's you know, Westchester is also kind of like maybe the O.C. of New York City. Oh, yeah. That's where Bill and Hillary Clinton live is Chappaqua. And but I think it's less conservative. You know, it's a little more liberal, though, maybe similarly, as stuffy. I apologize to anyone from who's from Chappaqua. Yeah, it seems really pretty, too, but there's a cachet. It definitely has a cachet. When you say you're from Chappaqua, it's like you you buy a house with the Chappaqua zip code. And even if it's 10 minutes outside of Chappaqua, you're you know, it costs like easily $100,000 more to live in Chappaqua. Like those are million, million dollar houses. So yeah, it's it says a lot about her off the bat, but how different she is. Like, I think she is different than sort of the typecast they had the first couple of seasons and she came in and was seen as different, almost like it felt like there was like and I think that's part of like the energy she brought in. But I think it's also because she is kind of different than all of these women has and has never like fully made sense in this group, in my opinion. Yeah. And so she comes in as a former actress who married a plastic surgeon. They have a bunch of kids, they live in a huge mansion. But she really, you know, holds her former career as an actress, is being really important to her identity. And she talks about how it was a huge struggle to give that up to like stay at home with the kids. Right. And I think she absolutely comes in with like a deep identity crisis. Oh, yeah. She is torn between being this like housewives stay at home mom taking care of these young children and wanting to be this equal to her husband, wanting to honor her career as a career woman, as an actress, And it feels like that first season she comes in, And you just really saw the identity crisis and the conflict between her and Terry of her trying to gain respect as an. Equal with him. And him like playfully, but also kind of condescendingly like. Dismissing her. And this has been kind of a theme in Orange County with all the women is and with housewives just in general as a show is. These women come on, they're sort of not an equal to their husband. They're just, you know, the stay at home mom. And then they get the show and they get the money and they get the attention and they finally get that equality, which I think. More recently, since she's been back on the show, you see more of that equality with Terry. But one of the things that I know she had said when she was offered housewives, she was like, really not sure if she wanted to do it because she wanted to be taken seriously as an actress. And she thought that this would hurt her career maybe. But then she watched the show and she was like, Oh, I get it. It's calm, it's funny. It's like everybody plays these stereotypical roles. It's the modern day soap opera, campy soap opera. And so when she came on the show, she was very much about wanting to play that role and be part of that that show. And I think in some sometimes I feel like she she plays that up a lot. Like, you can tell she's playing that actress role and then the mask will come down when something real happens. And she's just trying to make it be more in her control, which will get into all of that. But I think coming into it, having that identity crisis, she even changed her name. And that was a big storyline, that big party where the woman like eight off of her cake and she had an absolute meltdown. So yeah, she's definitely going through like how do I stay me while being in a marriage and raising kids and not being in a marriage with someone with like such a strong personality, like Terry has such a strong personality. And then he kind of becomes and I, I did a history taking of like who was first? Was it was it Heather? Was it botched? Was it Adrian in Beverly Hills? Like, what was the order of that? And it was actually Adrian was first in Beverly Hills, then Heather then Botched came. But like it's almost like there's a part of Terry that couldn't give her all. Like, I feel like almost Harry wants the reality show more than she does. Oh, yeah. So Botched is a show with him and Adrienne Maloof, Beverly Hills Housewives, her ex-husband. Paul Massive. And they basically take people who've had botched plastic surgery and they fix them. It's a really good show. It was on for many years. I get sucked into it. I just always like close my eyes during the surgery part. But yeah, so Heather being on this show did happen first and I think that helped get him the deal to box and he did that show and was really successful at it. And now they both sort of sell a bunch of stuff on QVC. And actually during pandemic they were hawking all these like COVID tests for like 100 times. The price wasn't a good luck. So yeah, I do think there's an element where both of them really likes the attention and fame. Whereas like if you look at Bill, who's also a plastic surgeon on Real Housewives of New Jersey, Jed Eden's husband, he seems to like not mind being on camera and being the mix, but it definitely doesn't seem like something he would not say to do. Yeah. So like you even in like there's so many scenes that like are of Heather and him, like they're like, you rarely see Heather without him. So Heather wants to be an actress. This becomes like a running storyline that with the other women where she's, like, offered a role because a lot of housewives are offered, like, roles on lifetime movies, roles and shows And remember that season she was offered a show on that channel that doesn't even exist anymore. The Hot in Atlanta or something Anyways, she gets on the show and then Tamra's like I was also offered a role on that show and then she gets really insulted. So it's a running kind of thing with the women where it's like Heather wants to be taken seriously as an actress, but every time she gets a role, it's very like housewives because of housewives, which I think is interesting because you see someone like Garcelle from Beverly Hills, she's doing all these amazing Lifetime movies. It is Lifetime, but she's killing it out. It, you know, you see, Nini even had a pretty successful career when she went off to like act from Atlanta. So anyways, she gets in this big fight recently and since she's been back on the show about her IMDB and how she doesn't have a series, I'm DVR. Do you remember all this fight? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it just like it didn't seem like this all feels like a blip to me in the bigger spectrum of Heather, I guess. I don't know why this is like feeling very like is this is this even a story? Like, was this ever a story? Like, I remember the IMDB page, FYI and about I think you're right about this thing about legitimacy with her. Like she wants to be taken as legitimate. And I think we see that like she comes in with this identity crisis and now there's this like bigger crisis of like, am I a housewife or am I an actress? And people want to pigeonhole me. And as someone we know, Heather, she's someone who, like, wants to be in control. She's very like, I want things to look a certain way and be a certain way. And so when I'm an actress, I want you to see me as an actress. And when that gets dismissed by Terry, by the other women, by probably the world in a lot of ways, I think that makes her feel really insecure and scared. Yeah, because I actually thought the part of the fight that was more interesting than whatever the IMDB page was at some point, Taylor Armstrong, who comes in the show from Beverly Hills, wants her to do this movie in Oklahoma that she's helping produce. It seems like a friend's project, but she's just helping, like get off the ground. She doesn't know anything about being an actress or being in Hollywood or making a movie, really. And she just asked me, Heather, like, you're a real actress. Can you come on this movie and do this role? And Heather is like really insulted by she actually does this thing that she does all the time that is like the most passive aggressive thing where she goes, Oh, you're so sweet. Oh, that's so cute. Like she has these little sayings that are, like, meant to be dismissive of other people. But in this very like, I'm, I'm putting a bow on the package, like, I'm going to say no or I'm going to be rude or I'm going to give a judgment, but I'm going to put this bow and say, you're cute. This is sweet. This is nice. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like she was just like, you're Newton. You know, the director needs to call my agent. That needs to call my manager. That needs to know that, like, there's a way in Hollywood. It's like, yeah, maybe if you're booking a marvel movie for $1,000,000, but if you're making a very low budget Oklahoma indie project that a housewife is basically championing, like, she can just ask you to be in it. Like, I didn't think what Taylor was doing was so outside the realm of Hollywood, because everything in Hollywood is you go to a party, you meet someone at the country club, and you make things happen. And and Heather knows that. So the fact that she was, like, acting like that, I felt like was a defense mechanism because she did. Interesting that you're it's interesting that you're having it feels like you're having a big reaction to it because to me, it's like, okay, she wanted to say no but didn't want to say no to her face. Sort of rather her like gone through her. Agent to say no. Look, that's how I took that was she was just like, I want you to do things this way so that I don't have to look like the bad person and say no to your face. I think y have a big reaction to it is that it was just so condescending. Mm. You know, shocker, right? Isn't that, like, her whole thing? Exactly. So let's get into that piece of it. It just is so condescending. And to me, it's like you could say it as my agent. I might have a conflict. I have my podcast, I have my fake Mark Cuban fire side channel. That never became a thing, you know? But instead she had to, like, talk down her like she didn't know what she was doing. And it was kind of extra insulting because it's like, Heather, she's making a movie that's not easy and she's never done this, and at least she's doing it. Like, I kind of feel like from Heather's perspective, she was very much like, this was like with me. Yeah, but meet me and it's like, Well, what are you doing? Like, I don't know. It just if someone's doing an artistic project that they're passionate about, like, to just kind of be that insulting. It offended me a little bit. But beyond that, I think this is a running theme with her, is that the women are always saying that she's very condescending. And I think that was big when Shannon joined the show. Shannon is who? Opposite of Heather in every way, like I told you so. Very similar, right? Like they're in a similar wealth bracket. They come from similar backgrounds. I think part of their like what feels like a point of contention is that Shannon has bought a piece of land right underneath. Heather if you want to get any more like metaphorical, she's going to like build her house right underneath Heather's. And there's like a constant talk about that, like, oh, it's not the same neighborhood because it's lower like this part of Heather that, like, wants to be on the show but also wants to to know she's better than the show. Exactly. And that's how I felt that comment was about her being like this show's camp. It's funny. And it's like, Yeah, but to these women who wear their seventies costumes at the bunco party and fight, it's real to them. And I think. But didn't she make the show better? I don't know. I think she made it better. I guess I like the condescension there. Like, I don't know that I would like it towards me. Like it would definitely feel really icky. But to me it's like I feel like I want to condescend these women so I can almost relate to her. Like there are parts of it I can't like where it becomes like this, the fancy pants part of it, where it becomes about like ego. And I'm better because I have more money or because I have more opportunity. The part is like a little like, okay, I can back away from it. But there are a lot of moments where she can get condescending with these women and I'm like, Yeah, I kind of agree with it. I don't know. I think she plays a good role as the voice of reason, and I think when she's in that role, she plays it well, and I think her parties are always over the top. I think they brought her back on the show just to show her enormous, insane house. There must have been more of why she brought her back. And to me, I think it is a really big part of how she is different than all these other women. And I think when we talked a little bit earlier about like this core identity conflict, I think there's even like besides just like in her life and in her marriage and like what she wants for her career, I think there's like a deep breakdown of the conflict in her of like, who am I in the world? I come from this, like, very specific place of like fancy pants. And I keep using fancy pants because I like what they describe for us. I think she's sort of like her brand identity is fancy, so. Exactly. Exactly. But she comes from this, like, rich, elite place that's a little bit more like reserved and I don't know, like, not open. And you see her be like kind of coming in like, I have all these LGBTQ children, I'm a Jew and a Buddhist. Like there's this part of her that wants to break free of some of the shackles of that upbringing and doesn't know who to think come in when I'm like in her first scene, when she's, like describing herself, she's like, I'm a Jew, but I'm also a Buddhist. But you see how like even just in her first description of yourself herself, you see the dichotomy of her parts where there's like this one part that's like really stuck in the confines of this, like conservative, like rich Jewish upbringing and this other part that wants to break free of that and wants to be like loose and free and like Buddhist and A creative artist and like. as she's describing herself, she's describing these two conflicting parts. And I think that's really interesting in this show where you're seeing a lot of blond Christian women. Yeah, I think if I was to describe Chappaqua, it's like a shift dress with a cardigan and pearls. And Newport Beach would be trophy wife, fake boobs, blond hair extensions, all the fillers you could get. So it is a big juxtaposition, let's talk about the scenes with her mom because I feel like we always get into family is and that's where we really dove deep into the psychology of these people. Well, I think when we get glimpses into their family, it helps us like make sense of why they are the way they are outside of the vacuum of like, oh, she's just rude and condescending. Like, there's. So they're in a more recent season, Her and Gina go to New York and they have this dinner with Gina's parents and with Heather's parents. And of course, Gina's parents come in. And the first thing Gina says or Heather says, it's like, Oh, her family is so cute. Like this is. And it feels like the deepest condescension, like the nicest condescension. And so, like, you can't do anything about it, but like, sit with the aquavit on you. But then her mom comes in and her mom has her times a thousand, right? Like she's so rigid. She's so, like, got her nose turned up. Everything immediately starts, like, passively aggressively dismissing the waitress and criticizing the waitress. And you just see Heather in it all. And then they kind of describe like Heather talks about her mom. And just to go back a little while, her mom is doing that. Heather just looks deeply ashamed. She looks deeply embarrassed. It's just like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is my mom. And so I'm just like, oh, the lack of like for someone who's so aware of so many things, there's such a deep lack of self-awareness in this person like she is. So and I think she wants to be self-aware but just can't. Like there's some barrier there for her really being able to see the impact of these these behaviors that she engages in that are clearly learned. Right? Like you see her mom play them all out and I'm sure they're learned from generations of generations before that. and talking about how her mom, like, had all of these rules and like how she wants. And in juxtaposition, she's like my mom, which we had to do things. We had to do it like this, this, this. And then they pan to the children. And the children are like sitting on their phones at the dinner to kind of show like how Heather does not incite the same rules with her children as she's grown up with herself. And so, again, there's that dichotomy of like, I am this one thing and I want to do something different. Like, I have all this issues with control and needing things to be a certain way And like, I want to let go. I want to let go. Shannon really calls out her condescension like pretty early on and that becomes like a big issue between them. what we see is Shannon kind of comes in and she it feels like in a lot of ways and body is a lot of like what Heather wants to be. She's rich, like she's got all this money and opulence. But she's a mess, right? She's kind of like she has no control. Extended is someone who is like throughout her time on O.C. is just like always kind of a bit of a mess. Like, she's not worried about society stuff. Like she's not living by certain, like, unwritten rules that it feels like Heather feels like she has to live by. And I think she sees that and she's immediately triggered by it because there is a deep part of her that like would like to not necessarily be Shannon, but be able to be as carefree as Shannon. She would like to be able to let go of control in the way that it looks like Shannon has just like lost control. I think the opposite is true that Shannon very much feels triggered by the rigidity in Heather and the way Heather is able to control her emotions. And her response is like that first fight where she kicks Shannon out of her house. Like Heather's like almost very calm even when she kicks her out where Shannon is just like, whoa, you look like you're talking about my husband. And it's like clearly a bigger reflection of her that have a lot to say about that, but like, it feels like she's, like, wishes she could button herself up and control her emotions in that way. So that first dinner party that Shannon throws at her house and they're showing around her house and she's a basketball court or whatever, it begins with her and David fighting in the kitchen and then everyone being like he didn't like at one awkward or whatever they're even fighting about, they just clearly hate each other. And then the party goes on and they start having this great time and they're over the dinner table and they're all interrupting each other and is telling a story. And then, Vicki, cuts are often like cuts are off and then Heather can't get a word in edgewise. And at some point Heather's just like, are you going to she says to Vicki, Are you ever going to let, like, you can make it about you in a minute, like let other people talk and then they pan to like a few minutes later? Heather telling this like never ending story. That's just like nobody everyone looks like glazed over for. Yeah. And then they all start drinking and partying and Tamra and Vicki are very much like, why can't Heather just be fun? And you could tell from the beginning there's a sort of a jealousy that Shannon like instantly becomes Trace Amigos and Heather sort of out in the cold. And then when Tamra came back last season kind of felt like the same thing. But one thing with the controlled and and how they they handle their emotions. There was a scene at Tamra's house, Tamara stirring the pot this whole season. I'm not going to even get into that. But this whole season. The whole season where this whole serious. Yeah, that's what you meant, right? Yeah. No. Tamara's professional role is pot stirrer in this entire series, except for her early seasons when it was destroying her marriage. But anyways, so she's like pot stirring and telling everyone that they said this and nobody said anything. So it's like just really weird. But at some point they kind of confront Heather about being condescending. This before Shannon gets thrown out of the house and Shannon's just like, I told you this over lunch, like, you need to stop talking down to people. And she says it just the way I just said it. And in Heather's retelling, she's like, Shannon yelled at me in front of everyone, and I watched that scene like twice. And I was like trying to figure out when she yelled at her. Well, she probably didn't. But if I were to, like, move into Heather's, like, vulnerability in that moment, I think there's a deep part of her that wants to think she doesn't turn her nose up like her mother does. And so when people and we see it later, like, I think, Emily says similar things like Heather, you have to stop acting like you're better than everyone. I can't remember exactly. They're in the nail salon. I remember her just being like, You need to stop this. And I think for Heather, any time that's pointed out, she immediately feels like she's being attacked because people are calling her out and something she is deeply trying to reject and think she's not doing. And so I think that's the reaction of like she was yelling at me is more that this touched like a wound that felt so unsafe and scary for her that like her reaction is that like this now feels like an attack because you've touched something so sensitive within me. Yeah, it's just crazy that now, over the span of different casts, they've all pointed this out. And like, it's just interesting. I also think with that big fight with them at Lizzie's house, which I totally forgot about Lizzie, she was actually a pretty good housewife. I would be for bringing her back, but she had a party. And Tamra told the producers that Terry said they're going to take down the doors. And then Tamara says, I never said that. But Vicki backs up Shannon's version of the story that she said that. So it's like this whole telephone game of who said what It's like menacing, right? Like what the fuck does take down the butt of even me? And like, what are they, the mob? Like, what? I just everyone taking it so seriously also because they're actively just taking themselves down that whole first season. Oh delete. I mean, they were actively destroying their marriage on camera that whole first season she was on. So if anyone was taking down the doors, the call came from within the house. It was you guys. So yeah, but you know, Terry flips out about it, which was kind of weird in general, like why he got so upset about it. And then obviously Shannon loses her shit and in some ways rightly, and Lizzie kind of points out Tamra's the one who caused all of this, which is what happened. But, you know, she totally flips out. And the whole time, Heather is like, we got to call an ambulance. And she's very calmly because I think she's having a psychotic like and very like, right? Like she's not. And I think that like that drives that makes Shannon more crazy. And that's like a skill, right? Like that's a coping skills. She learned at a very young age, almost kind of reminds me of like Kim Kardashian that like when you stay calm in chaotic situations, you have control and then you're not going to get disregulated. And then you also have the upper hand, but not to bring in the controversial gaslighting term. But there is a bit of dismissiveness in that in being like she's clearly just upset. I mean, she is over the top and probably kind of drunk, but she isn't like breaking things or like hurting herself. Like, you don't call an ambulance for someone who's just yelling and just crying is isn't like a Britney Spears moment, you know, where she needed to be, like dragged out on a stretcher. Like the fact that Heather took that situation and took it to that extreme says a lot about what's going on, that she can't handle other people's emotions in that way. I don't think it's that I think it's that she's constantly looking where she can have the upper hand and look like superior. There's like a superiority thing that she needs to feel. And again, I think it's very much rooted probably in her mommy relationship or family relationships because that, you know, those sorts of things tend to be like deeper attachment wounds. But I fully think that like there's just something in her that reacts in certain ways because she needs to feel like she's up here, like, you know, she's in the house above she lives and she lives above and looks down on everybody else and has and now she is that penthouse in Century City so she can even look more at. Yeah, she's down on mansion and look at Drake's mansion. So she ends up quitting this show when Kelly joins because it just got too nasty for her. And I mean. Right. I think there's something about Shannon's loss of control, because I think you said something that felt really right to me that like there is like a fun in Shannon and that's like what she I think that's in her core what she is wants she wants to be fun and she can't get because she needs to have too much control. Kelly is not fun. She's erratic and loses control, but she's not like it's not fun to watch her in. Like when Shannon's like, going, you're going to see what she's lose. And like, when she's kind of like even having those breakdown moments, it's like we all kind of were collectively laughing at with, I don't know, but, like, it's more fun than what? The darkness of when Kelly is in it. Yeah. I mean, Shannon does things accidentally a lot or I don't know, I don't see Shannon as inherently mean in any of her actions. I think Kelly is more inherently mean, but also I don't think Kelly cares what people think about her like they don't. She doesn't care if she's the villain. Shannon really cares about being a good person and you see that in different instances. I think Heather does too, and I think that's one of her strengths as I think she and it's part of that conflict is she wants to be seen as cool, as relatable, as a like a good person. And there's just this piece of her that's so condescending that like, makes it hard for us to get there with her. Because I feel like there's moments where I'm like, I'm there, I'm there, I'm there. I really like Heather. And then like, oh, it's just something that, like, pushed me backwards. She has a unique way, just as a cast member, where everyone will sort of turn against her. Like last season, I remember everyone sort of turned against her and Kevin remember why I feel like just, again, her personality. And I think it was that though she was being real, they were like, You're not telling us about your house like you're here. All you care about is your money. Like, I think it was the same thing of like, we feel like you're pushing your nose up to us. And she is. And to some degree. But yeah, there's also a push pull with the women, right? Because they also do kind of see her as superior and treat her in those ways and then get mad when she embodies it. Like Gina. okay, so she leaves the show. I think there's also sort of that same control looking down on with the show and production because 100%, because when she left the show, I remember it being like, you should fire Kelly. I think Kelly's beneath this show. And if you won't get rid of her, I'm leaving. And then they will. Like she brings in the drama. So peace out. And she laughed. And I don't think it was under bad terms. I think it was her choice. And then when they brought her back in, it was very much, you know, everyone wanted to see her house. But like more than that, the show was in like dire decline and it really needed an O.G. to come back, especially with Tamra leaving. The show felt very like rudderless, and it just was the perfect time for her to come back in. She could be center orange. She could bring the show back to the roots and. I mean, we'll get into all the specifics, but I feel like that was too much for Heather to carry because I think she was a good voice of reason. She was good at what she did bring to the table like that. She was ready. She had these big parties. She was above everything. I don't see her as like Vicki level holding the middle orange. I don't see her as Tamra like stirring the pot and causing all the chaos. I agree. And I do think she kind of saved the show. I think they needed her. I think they needed her. But what's interesting is that the first episode when she's back, she almost quit the show. It's on camera because I think she just there is an element where she feels like she should be a producer. It's almost like that Bethenny syndrome where she's like, Oh, I should really be a producer. And I think that you see this more. I feel like with housewives, like especially housewives who've been on these franchises longer, this feeling that like I've earned a status that I should be able to dictate, like my story. And I mean, it's obviously becoming a problem across all the franchises. I think Shannon is grade-A reality TV because she doesn't fall into that trap at all. Mostly because I just think don't think she can. But yeah. So. So she comes back and basically she's got this friend who was kind of not even part of the show. She just sort of showed up for those first two episodes. And Shannon happens to know this friend from the past, but know that she sued Terry Dubrow. But Heather doesn't know that her friend sued her husband. It's so convoluted. And then Shannon tells Gina and Emily, but doesn't want them to tell Heather. And then She has this over-the-top Nobu sushi dinner of like, I want to be invited to one of her dinners. Please, Heather. I know. Maybe we're dragging you a little bit, but, like, we love you. We take it all back. If we could get that, be our friend. Delete the episode. If delete immediately. If we come to your home. No, but. Yeah. So she has us over the top dinner and then Gina gets us like. I have to tell her that her friend sued her husband. Poles are aside. Heather absolutely loses it. But what's interesting I find fascinating and I really want your take on it, is with Gina. She's sitting there. She's very controlled, like you said always. Okay. Let me take in this information. And then Shannon told me this. Shannon walks over. Hot mess. Shannon, like why? I'm a good person. I would never hurt you. And it's like, first of all, I don't even understand what all this drama is like at all and how they're sort of stoking the flame of it all because it's like, well, wouldn't it's just weird that this girl wouldn't tell you she sued her husband from It's Nobody's Fault except this girl. It's not anybody else's rumor ring like Shannon's actually kind of be champion. And Gina are being a good friend by being like this girl is being weird that she didn't tell you she sued your husband, Mike. I don't understand how they took the bullet for that. But so she's very controlled. Shannon's kind of flipping out. Gina is kind of like, oh. And then she's like, okay. Calmly walks over to production, flips her shit off camera. You don't see that she runs up and is trying to talk to her. And you can see that they're behind camera. Usually big events like this, they have an area called Video Village where all the monitors are set up and all the producers are set up and you cross the line into that. So she's in Video Village, sort of yelling at producers theoretically, and a cameraman turns on the camera and he just starts filming because now Shannon's over interaction is happening. It's it's in any camera, a person's, job description. When drama is happening, when cast members are interacting, you have the camera on like even shows I've worked on. If the cameras aren't on in, two cast members are next to each other. As a producer, you're told to tell them, don't speak, don't interact, because that's how precious some of these interactions are. So she goes behind the camera. The camera guy starts filming and at first she's like, Don't film, don't film. And she's freaking out. And then she actually pushes the camera guy. She pushes the camera like the lens of the camera There's later debate in the reunion whether or not Heather pushed someone during this whole interaction and they're all kind of debating it and whatever. I only know what I saw on camera, which was her physically pushing the camera. Right. That's all we should respond to, because everything else is here. Everything else is hearsay. But here's my thing. Even that was such a crossed boundary in production. Like as a cast member and you go on any set of a reality show, the first rules that you learn is this equipment is not yours. Even when you wear a mike pack, you jump into a pool that's thousands of dollars of equipment that you just ruined. So don't do that. And as far as camera people, it's their job to film you no matter what you're doing on these cameramen. It's a physical job. They're carrying a large camera. They're essentially risking their health and life to run around and chase crazy women who were just fighting. So, I mean, that's their job. And like a producer will be in their ear and say, turn on the camera and film. And that is their boss. That is their job. So if you're going to be upset with anyone about filming, you talk to a producer, you don't interact with a cameraman because they're doing their job and there is clear boundaries and anyone on set like wouldn't know this. And I know Heather knows that. So to me, like, I think her touching that camera and physically engaging with that cameraman was very dangerous. Even though she's a small woman, she didn't hurt anyone. It's just a really. No, no, like you shouldn't do it. And I like I actually was surprised. I think that's why the women came back at her with some accusations, because I've seen on other shows, if a cast member interacted with a crew member like that, that would be I don't know if they'd be off the show, but it would be a huge issue. Like you're not allowed to physically touch a crew member like that or a camera like that. But it does it does bring up this bigger idea of like what are like. There are clearly set boundaries for like the crew, but what are the boundaries for these reality stars? And I think, you know, you know, we hate to, like, totally get on board with Bethany's hashtag reality reckoning. It keeps going up, though. We're going to write our own a lot of this. But I do think there's something interesting here of like when things do get heated or escalated and you need to regularly and there's a camera kind of coming at you, whether it's their job or not. Like you may have a reaction. And it's not to say she's right or wrong, but it's more of like that may be something that, you know, production companies need to be a little more clear about, like, what are what are we going to do if we see people seem to be disregulated and like, how much of this are we willing to lean in to versus where do we need to like back off because we're going to create something that becomes unsafe? Because what I know as a therapist is that, like when we are in our emotional minds, you're saying she knows this, she knows this, it's like, yeah, but you're talking about her reasonable, like logical mind. And when you are in an emotional place, you're cut off from that. And so oftentimes, like reason and logic aren't like what you're responding and where your behavior is. And probably afterwards she realized that when she calmed down and probably ended up apologizing and like, I'm sure there was a whole thing that we don't see But my guess is in that moment, like, that's not where she was. And so I don't know that she knew it at that moment, if that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, reality TV is still a very young art form, you know, like it really is. And we're still figuring out a lot of stuff. And from the beginning it was founded on the idea that conflict makes good television, which is really even scripted television. But a lot of that was always be filming, always be following. Disregulation is positive, you know, like all of that. And maybe there is a conversation to be had because if you're on a set like this, you're being filmed. There is no there's no turning. Like you can take off a mike and you can walk away, but aside from that, you're being filmed. So again, that is coming from like the reasonable parts of you. And I guess that's what I say. Like, is there some deeper work that these production companies need to do to think about, like even bringing in, like, mental health specialists to help them understand, like what happens when deep conflict happens, what happens to the brain, what happens in behavior? Because, yes, these are all adults, people who know, but even adult people who know if they're like what they're trying to do is create high emotions. And so when we are in these high emotional states, we're not moving from a place of reason and we're not moving from a place of the things we know And so that creates a lot of risk on all ends Well, I think it's a bigger question, too, as long as audiences, you know, a clip like that clip of Heather flipping out or, you know, any of these big conflicts that happen on these shows where someone walks off or they're fighting or they're screaming or they're crazy or they're fighting with production. Bravo. Fucking Bravo. You know, like any of that gets so much airplay, so much, you know, attention. As long as the audience is, you know, feral for that stuff, which is what they're always going to be. Because, yeah, it's part of like, the stimulus brain, like we're attracted to emotions. Exactly. We're not going to be so interested in just seeing them sit down and have a State of the Union, you know, like we're going to. And like, that does mean that there should be something more talked about, about how do we regulate? Like what are we going to do to ensure everyone's safety. Our staff are stars, which are also our staff like everyone. unfortunately the big barrier to that is money. Mhm. but going back to Heather, what I found was interesting because we, you had mentioned, you know how controlled she is, how handled she is. I think that moment kind of showed me how much of all of that is a mask because when you she goes back to production, she's obviously disregulated, upset, yelling. You know, the way she described Shannon is flipping out and yelling and needing a you know. I want to I want to challenge the mask of it all because I don't think you're wrong, but I think it's a part I think she has these different parts in her and she is doing I think a lot of the control is to have us not see those parts that she doesn't like, which are the parts that get angry and the parts that can be disregulated. And again, I think it probably goes deeper back to her family. Her mom seems very controlled and rigid and probably never taught her much of like affect regulation, but taught her like some unhealthy coping skills of be in control. And then you won't have to worry about how to regulate because you won't ever get upset, which is not true. Right? Like that's a false narrative to hold because as humans we have emotions and like eventually things build up and burst. And I don't know if that's how she is all the time. My guess is it's not. That is something that like, again, she like the other parts continue to protect her from it and then it builds up and builds up and builds up until she has these more like explosive moments. But because she's so good at controlling, we so rarely see that. Well, and that's why I my question is more is she different off camera than she is off on camera? Because I just saw a different person when she was talking to production. And then often this came up in the first season with Shannon and then it kind of came up with this whole weird Katie fight that she just had in the last like recent episode. But she off camera goes and sort of gossips about these women in the Newport circles and the ladies that lunch and you know, she brought up Shannon and David's issues and then all the other women knew about it. They all gossiped about it. And she was like, No, I shut it down. It was like, No, you didn't yet brought it to the table and you all gossiped about it. So sometimes I wonder, I'm like, Is she just putting on things for the camera? Well, when you said, Is she different off camera, I'm like, Well, what's off camera to her? Because I think the camera's been on before she became on the show. Well as an actress. Mm hmm. I think being I always, she's probably been playing a role from early in life of trying to play up to whatever situation she's in. So I don't know that, like, there is, like, a real Heather yet. I mean, it is funny because, you know, her and Terry story now is very the second act and they're going to they sold their huge house to buy four more homes and they're going to live in L.A. and she's going to do her acting and her mark Cuban fireside, whatever that became that thing. But she's got all these big dreams and a like as a woman, I think that's amazing because, you know, at any age, you should be able to go and make your own business or start something new. And, you know, now that her kids are off, she does have that freedom. But there's something that's like I don't feel like I relate to her on all of it because it just seems like so put on. Well, it's like she's still not. You'd think, okay, your kids are gone and you have never had this moment to truly find yourself. And now you do. And you're still not. You're still playing the same roles of Now I'm going to cater to Beverly Hills. Now I'm going to cater to this. It still doesn't feel like she's doing this work to figure out like, who is Heather underneath all of these, like, you know, masks, if you will, or parts that these protective parts, all these like roles that she plays. Like, I'm sure part of each of those roles that she plays is a little bit part of like who she is. And there's like no way to know because there's these big walls between her and herself. Yeah. And sometimes I do think that fits into sort of a patriarchal box in some ways. Like, I think that whole conversation she had with Gina about Travis last season, which wasn't entirely wrong, it was more of the way she delivered it. And it's similar to Shannon where she's like, Gina, you're kind of just an emotional wreck and you're not over your ex. And Travis is going to be sick of that and leave you. And like when she said that, it kind of made me feel like there's been times in her relationship because we've seen it with Terry some times where she felt like she couldn't really express how she felt or what she really thought because she was like, Terry's going to leave me. And that's kind of the advice she's giving to Gina in that moment. And Gina's like, You don't know. Me and Travis were actually best friends, so he doesn't care if I talk about my ex, you know? But also, she's not wrong because you do need to, like, work it out. Gina or just work out whatever you're feeling about your ex still, whether that's connected to Travis or not. Yeah, I do think that like again, it feels like to me that goes back to that deeper identity conflict, the part of her that is very feminist and wants to be equal and wants to be an empowered woman. And then the part of her that still feels like she's supposed to play a certain role as a wife, as a mother, as a woman. And I don't know that she knows which she prefers and is still, I think, trying to figure out, like, what of these different worlds do I fit in? Like, I get this sense that it's like there's a deep conflict and she's not actually going to name the conflict because she's so fearful of seeing vulnerable. Yeah. And I think her relationship with Terry has evolved and grown. Oh, my gosh. Going back to that that fight, fight that, the big fight about the girl who's through Terry, when they would, she comes back down from upstairs. She's just totally calm and she brings Terry out to speak to this girl and he's like, Oh, honey, you should. We didn't. Yeah. And then the girl's, like, crying. Just burst into tears, hysterical. And then she's like, It's okay, you drop the lawsuit and thank you, by the way. And they both go like, oh, she went right into the role of surgeon's wife. I know, but I do think in most recent episodes, with them selling the house and then buying these new houses and them talking about their second act, it does seem like there's been an evolution in their marriage and they are very equal. And I think Heather getting Terry that show probably I think her doing the podcasting, her making her own brand, I think has really helped in her feeling like she has an outlet and that and he, you know, also kind of reap the rewards of this fame. And so I like their relationship. So getting into the final questions, is reality TV good for her? I mean, on my end, like she seemed like I said, it's been good for our marriage. She makes all this money. She's making herself a brand. I don't know. I do think it's good, but. Well. I think if anything, it's allowing her to foster some like creativity because it allows her to keep acting. Because I do think, like to her, this isn't reality. This is like a role she is playing. The role is herself. But like that's a character she's constantly building. So like this is acting. I do think the show is good for her because I think it is important because I feel like the women are constantly holding her accountable for this sort of superiority complex and this condescension And even though each time she still doesn't feel like she's able to access it, it does feel like over the years she's been able to move a little closer. Like if I'm going back to that moment with her and Emily, like she did get offended and there was like a shutdown, but it didn't like it felt like she had made some motion from prior experiences of being told this and that there is this part of her that's trying to look at these this thing and disengage from it a little bit. And I don't know. I think that's good. Is she good for reality TV? And she saved the show. I mean, okay. Yes. I think that she is a good B character. I think when Tamra's on the show and Shannon is on the show, she fits a role of being like very rich, bringing opulence, especially right now because she's not to the Carrie Bradshaw like she'd never the the main character. And I think you're absolutely right about that. But we kind of need those, like I think of Housewives of New York, like Carole Radziwill. I love obsessed with her. And she was never going to be like the main apple, which we might have, like. Right. Sorry, voice of reason. She's the person in the scene to go into interview and be like, This is crazy. She is the audience's voice in some ways. And I think, honestly, the franchises that don't have that struggle like a Potomac, like they don't really have that, I guess maybe. Karen But I still feel like Karen wants to be like the main person. So it's like I feel like there is a struggle when they don't have that. And so, you know, you're so right because that's the thing I struggle with with Potomac is I don't see myself in like a lot of those women just because they always seem like they're coming on the show with this agenda to, you know, cause as much chaos. And it doesn't feel like anyone just rooted in being on the show and like being their genuine self sometimes. So yeah I do struggle with that show. Mhm. I guess my, my, my thing that I struggle with is, is how they're really that person because sometimes she brings this actress, you know, and I think with the rumors about Teri and there was cheating rumors, right. And they never came really to the table. And then she did that thing and it became such a storyline. But like, I felt like earlier season she would talk about her relationship with Teri and they would go on dates and she would. I don't feel that she really does that as much anymore. Well, I feel like actually she's shown a lot because, again, she had that dinner with her mom. She's had a lot of scenes with her children. There is still a lot of her and Terry. I do think that her interior just in general, like in a better place. And so probably part of it is also like let's control the narrative, let's like manage these certain things. And I think there is a piece of it like you were saying of like the they she feels more like a equal in that relationship. And so there is maybe more mutual respect, which in those beginning seasons like that felt like the conflict they were going through of her being like, I want you to respect me and him being like, I respect you and they're real. If I had to define that couple, it's very Oh, well, it makes me think. I wonder if, like, they ever watch that back and if that was part of like what helped them grow as a couple. But you know, along with like all the other things if like that is a part of it, like, like her being like, no, you're really condescending, Terry, and being like, No, I'm not her being like, Why? And she's like, Well, what are the women saying about you? I mean, they're very similar in some ways, too, I don't know. But I don't think the level of condescension is different. Yeah. And between them, it's not where it exists. So, yeah, I just don't understand why the paparazzi thing was such a big deal. Why don't you just say, like, okay, sure. I called them. Like, I also don't get why it was a big deal to the girl's like, so what if she called the paparazzi? Like, why? Like, and if she lied, even if she lied about it, like, yeah, it's a little embarrassing. So let her, like, live her fantasy. Like, why? Like, why do you need, like, they are so dead set to break her down so that she can't shove her nose at them? And I don't know, it's like I'm not into it. Like, part of what I like about Heather is that she is I don't know that I fully want her to not have her nose up at these people because I don't know. I like this idea that she's kind of better than them. Yeah, I think part of it is maybe me. Yeah, I think part of it is like Tamra just she'll stir the pot even if the pot is empty. Like, I think part of it was sort of that. And then the other part of it is like I think the other women resent the fact that they bring so much drama and of their own lives and their relationships to the table and that it feels very much like Heather can control the narrative. And I think that that makes them upset. But I think you're right. A part of that is also like if there's no problems at home, there's no problems at home. Like, why are you like, why would she and I know we have like maybe some differing opinions. Why would she like Gina would be like, let's move out into different life. That's not really where she is. Like, she's not like, I appreciate the authenticity of that, of like, let's not start a fight to have a storyline. Yeah, no, there's definitely pieces of that Gina story missing for sure. But I guess it's going to be interesting, I guess, to watch it play out. But yeah. So then the other question we threw out there was now it's a bit confusing. Like, so she lives, she has this rental place and like a country club in Newport Beach, It felt like it was for the show. Then they have this penthouse in Century City, which is super confusing because it's like two bedrooms and it's huge and it's really expensive and it's in Century City, which is basically like the area of L.A. where all the lawyers have their offices. So it's not really a cool area at all. And then they have a mansion now, well, does not speak to their entire like again, inner conflict of like we want to be something and yet we still can't. Yeah, we want to be cool and hip and we just can't get there. Yeah. The main reason to go to Century City is to go to the Century City Mall, which does have a Harvey Steak House. And they're obsessed with Javier's steak house, apparently, and O.C. So maybe that's why they needed the penthouse to go to at the mall. But then they have a mansion in Beverly Hills, and they're next to Drake, apparently, who probably can't come back to Los Angeles after what Kendrick Lamar did to him. But that's a different story. So they're in Beverly Hills and we want to know whether she should join Beverly Hills, especially like she lives in Beverly Hills. And don't most of the women on Beverly Hills that actually live in Beverly. They all live in the valley, which is not Beverly Hills at all. It's the suburbs and it's hot. So, yeah, would Heather Dubrow make sense of Beverly Hills? I'd like to see her with those women like her and Sutton and like they could definitely have a condescension of. Oh, yeah, no, they're very similar. You know, I feel like Sutton almost plays Heather's role on that show, but in my opinion, kind of does it better. But she does it differently. Yeah, and she does have a little. It's like Shannon. She's got that Shannon mess sometimes. Mm hmm. But also can be very controlled name. Name names. Like, I'm not going to get erratic. I'm just going to keep repeating myself, which is actually brilliant. And I'm going to, like, take that on one day. Oh, with the accent. Name. Name is the best. We love your side. I know we. Okay, so this might be a certain Stan as well, but it would be interesting to do one on her as well. I don't know. I'm on the fence about Heather being in Beverly Hills. I think it's going to be a struggle moving forward if she lives in Los Angeles to continue to be on Orange County, because it just doesn't make sense. I think a part of her is a little bit vying for it because I know this came up on Watch What Happens Live. So and she was kind of like, Andy, what do you think? It's like Lindsay Hubbard every time someone's like, Would you be on New York Housewives? She's like, Oh, if they asked, you know? She's like, I'm dying for them to I'm actually interested in seeing it, but because I love like a mash up. Yeah. And I don't know if it would be something I want to see permanently, but like throw her in for a season, see? Like, you know, see how she swims with the sharks. Like, I'm. I'm kind of into those things. Yeah, I was really disappointed they didn't bring back Taylor Armstrong. I thought she just got on the show. I didn't really understood why they they fired her. That didn't it didn't track for me what I thought was that it was money. I think she was too expensive because they probably had to give her a really good right. Even as a friend. Dove And they were already giving that to Vicki. That's the only reason I could imagine because she was great. I mean. Yeah, and she was to me better than Vicki. But like, I know people really love Vicki. I have such an aversion to Vicki, which we could do a whole nother podcast on her. That's good, though. I don't even know if I'd want to, because it just feels like I feel like I have a hard time being in touch with Vicki's humanity in a way that, like, I want to try to hold on. We're diving into these women. Like, I feel like even here, like being critical of Heather. I don't like I feel like I respect her and I really like her. And she's someone I want to see on my screen. And I enjoy even in her more difficult moments, I still enjoy her. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I didn't know in some of this review seem like I have more of a negative on Heather than I actually do. I actually thought she was. It was great when they brought her back. I really like her on the show. Anytime I see her on screen, and especially when she's giving gifts, I'm like, How do I become friends with her? it feels like part of your reaction is because she's so controlled and has that superiority kind of way of being. You expect so much more from her. So when she engages in sort of like low behavior because I notice like the times that you felt like it felt like you were like, ooh, you really don't like Heather was like you were like, she should have known. And it's like, okay, like you hold her to a different standard. Yeah, definitely. Because I think it frustrates me that she has that superiority complex. But then also when she goes and gossips in Newport Beach, she doesn't just admit it or she doesn't just say, Oh, yeah, you know, I did say that. Or you like, admit you're in the garbage with everyone a little bit. Yeah. Like it's kind of like you're on housewives and like, I think the whole camp thing kind of threw me off because it's like, you just came on to the show thinking this show was beneath you, and this would be just like a character exercise for you. I guess I relate to that because I'm like, Oh, I watch housewives because they're camp. Like, I'm like, I relate to it where I'm like, I understand that I sometimes feel above the things that I enjoy, and it's a conflict within myself that I'm constantly working through. So, I mean, I think for me to yeah, I think I had already had a rant on this podcast about, you know, people judging me for working in reality TV. So I won't go through that again. Like that's where it triggers in me sometimes. Ah and it's kind of like, Oh, this is low brow. But she came back so she knows like she's, she's in it with the rest of us. She's in the dirt like she, she's got like, wait, there's something on here. It's a little bit of garbage. Like, she's got a little garbage on your nose too. You're not you're not in Jersey where you're holding the garbage in the right, but it's right there on your nose, you know. So we have a really exciting episode coming up about Shannon Bradshaw, and we're working on getting a really exciting guest that will probably like actually change our lives forever. That's TBD. TBD. Thank you all for listening. So we're kind of going to a biweekly schedule, so make sure to like and subscribe. So you see our podcast come up, we just reached 500 downloads, so thank you guys so much for listening and being fans and loving us. And we love you. We love you.