Shannon Beador from "Real Housewives of Orange County" with Jamie Stein

Get ready for the most in-depth exploration yet of The Real Housewives of Orange County's Shannon Storms Beador! Who better to join us than Jamie Stein, the host of "Deep Dive with Jamie Stein," an intuitive who inspired us to start this podcast! We're beyond excited to delve into the complex world of Shannon—a reality TV icon who's had more than her fair share of ups and downs.

After a life-altering DUI, Shannon has made an unexpected comeback, becoming a surprise fan favorite this season. But we're not stopping there. We're rewinding the clock to uncover the deeper patterns that have shaped her journey: her tendency toward a victim mentality, her relentless quest to be "fun Shannon," and the childhood wounds that still echo in her life today.

Tune in for a fresh, eye-opening perspective on one of Bravo's most fascinating housewives. 

Check out Deep Dive with Jamie Stein: 
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deep-dive-with-jamie-stein/id1562015854
https://www.instagram.com/jamiestein/?hl=en

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Chapters

• 4:50 Introducing Jamie Stein
• 9:54 Reality tv as the simulation
• 13:32 Introducing Shannon Beador
• 23:42 Shannon's relationship with manipulation
• 42:18 Shannon's childhood
• 1:01:33 Shannon's future
• 1:07:26 Shannon and Tamara
• 1:23:52 Shannon and her dad
• 1:28:22 Fun Shannon
• 1:37:03 Shannon and Kelly Dodd
• 1:41:15 Is she good for reality TV and is reality tv good for her?
• 1:49:42 Shannon's essence

Transcript

Hello, our unhinged friends. I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York city. We're best friends and Bravo super fans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged. And on camera.

 This week we're doing an exciting crossover episode. This'll be a episode of Deep Dive with Jamie Stein and an episode of Unhinged on Camera. we have Our guest, Jamie Stein, here, our hero, this is very exciting for us. One of the people who has inspired us and who we take some of our formatting from is Jamie Stein, and so we're so excited to get to meet him, get to talk to him, get to hear his insights. And so, you know, Jamie, we started our podcast [00:01:00] in inspiration of your podcast because we love how seriously you take reality TV and you take these women and you really hold space for their humanity and, you know, also the pop culture aspect. So yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, it's my pleasure.

I so enjoy the episodes of your podcast that I've heard. And as you know, I just felt like there was such an overlap between the content that we were creating. And it's actually always very helpful for me to hear other people who are really Committed to exploring things in a more nuanced way. Cause I still, honestly, sometimes I, I don't know if scared is the right word, but there does tend to be such a reactive response.

Not so much in my listeners, but like in the audience at large. And it, I'm sure you guys can relate. Sometimes it just feels like you're sticking your neck out a little bit. If you're willing to hold space for the humanity of especially those who people don't particularly like. So when I find [00:02:00] other.

Content creators who are in the same spirit in vain It's it's such a relief to me and I think I mentioned to you I actually get intuitive hits when I've listened to your guys's episode So the fact that if I played a part in and empowering you guys to follow your creative instincts, I love it I think you're creating something really awesome, which is why I wanted to get it in front of my listeners So thank you.

, so today we're gonna get into a very interesting character from Real Housewives of Orange County, , Shannon Bedore. Maybe before we get into it, I'd love, just for people who don't know Jamie or who do, just like, could you give a little intro of like who you are, what you do? Also, cause it's exciting for us to hear about it.

And me as a therapist, it's, it's, it feels very similar to the things you do and dissimilar, and I think it's interesting to just highlight sort of some of the differences there. Yeah, you know, honestly to this day, I still [00:03:00] don't know really what to call it. I've got to come up with like a brand name or something.

So, you know, I just typically say I'm an intuitive, I'm an empath, even though I think it's a very perhaps overused term at this point. But, you know, essentially what I do a lot of things, but I think the primary thing that I'm really able to do in my work with people and in my content creation is to, what I like to call, drop into people's unconscious landscapes.

And so, you know, as human beings, we all have blind spots, we all have blind spots. Parts of ourselves that we do not know about, , in our conscious minds. And I tend to be able to, like I said, drop into people's psyches, , their unconscious landscape and find out more of the truth of what's really going on and what's driving whatever it is they're creating in their lives.

So, you know, I was, I always like to say, you know, people in their conscious minds might say things like, Oh, I really want relationship, or I want career success, or I want, you know, whatever it is. Which is great. [00:04:00] And that's true. Part of them does, but if there's something in their unconscious mind, that's saying no to the things they want out of fear, out of unconscious anger, out of wounds that they haven't fully processed yet, then you know, this is a therapist.

That's really, what's going to be driving the ship. So what I do with people, like I said, I, I, it's sort of like a fast track to the unconscious. I'm almost kind of like a form of hypnosis where I just kind of go in and I bring what's into shadow into light. And my feeling is on a broader level that this is actually what we're here to do as human beings.

That, you know, if you believe in this, that we've all incarnated in these particular identities for a reason. So you're Sam for a reason, you're Jenny for a reason, I'm Jamie for a reason, our Souls are meant to learn and master certain lessons in this lifetime, which means we were meant to get wounded. We were meant to put things in the unconscious so that hopefully at some point down the line we use our free will.

To [00:05:00] open those doors back up to reclaim what's essentially been forgotten. And through that, we learn lessons. So, you know, maybe there's something you're meant to master in the area of relationship or in the area of abundance. And so you're meant to go through that journey, essentially of rediscovering yourself, which is where the mastery occurs.

So. I do think of this work as soul activation work. , lastly, yeah, I just bring this to reality TV. Uh, I have, you know, my own podcast, as you mentioned, deep dive with Jamie Stein, where I just take a look at these reality TV characters and pull, you know, I always say playfully drop in. to explore what might be motivating their on screen behavior on a more unconscious level as a way to bring more understanding and empathy to the human experience because I think it's easier for people to like see it from the outside and others than it is maybe to necessarily see it within themselves so yeah hopefully just creating a space to uh widen out this conversation for this complex [00:06:00] bittersweet fun thing our souls have chosen to undertake called humanity I really love that.

I really love the like parts perspective you hold. I like to do that in my own work. Like look at people's different parts. And what I think is really interesting about that with reality television is I think one, we want to kind of identify with only one part of what we're being seen of somebody and it creates such like, Dichotomies in the viewers, in the person, in all of these things that make us want to see things in this black and white lens that doesn't allow for the nuance.

And so I think that's what I really connected with, with your podcast is how much nuance it allowed. And, you know, Jenny's my really good friend. She's been a reality TV producer. I knew her before then, but she's been a reality producer most of our friendship. And one of the things I've seen her go through is just people's judgment about reality TV and belittlement of it.

And how like, how unfair that feels and how that feels like it's [00:07:00] coming from this one part of people that like wants to feel above something or wants to feel better than something. And so I think it works in like all aspects of exploring reality TV. 

It's really interesting. Cause you're talking about parts, right? Parts versus the whole, and that suddenly just occurred to me. You two actually represent two different parts of me because I used to work in reality TV. So I worked on the real world for, for a while. Like four seasons or so, and then I do have therapeutic training, even though I'm not out there as a therapist.

So it's, I'm just, you know, I'm looking at my computer screen and there's like three panels and I'm seeing like, Oh, reality TV producer therapist. And then there's me. 

So it's just interesting to me that we're talking about. Parts and the whole and then there's kind of a reflection of that even just in the triad between us And having said that yeah, I think like there's so much we could say about reality TV Just a couple bullet points quickly since you brought it in.

Yeah. I mean, I think the judgments always bothered I just got kind of always feel like we can't push away what's here [00:08:00] because it's here. So if the collective consciousness Co created reality TV, whether it's destructive or not, it's saying something about the collective consciousness. And if you choose to believe that, yeah, everything in this waking dream called life has meaning and significance, you know what you resist persist.

So people can point their finger at reality TV all they want, but It is a part of the pop culture. It is hitting something in the collective. And if you're choosing to ignore it, then, you know, it doesn't go away. It just becomes kind of like that bump underneath the rug. That's going to persist. You know, it reminds me of like, you know, when Trump got elected and people said, well, he's not our, my president.

And I remember just thinking, actually he is. And the country voted for him. And you might want to tell yourself that it was only a bunch of deplorables who did it, but you're not in reality about what's going on. And to be clear, I did not vote for Trump just because I know sometimes people misunderstand things.

He wasn't my particular choice, but [00:09:00] I also understand. He is reflecting something in this country and there's like a voice or voices that want to be heard We can point our finger at it all we want but you know, it ain't going away anytime soon So, you know, there's that piece of it. And then I think also Just the fact that it has tapped into something.

I mean clearly from the beginning from the real world It is just tapped into something so deep something I think about that reflection, you know, of being able to see ourselves and quote unquote real people on TV. And then I won't go too far into this, but I'm sure you've heard me talk about like, you know, for me feeling like reality TV is the simulation within the simulation, you know, like if this if life.

Is a simulation where our souls come down and like play these parts. It's like reality TV is kind of a microcosm of that, where we create these little worlds and we cast the show and we kind of plot these little storylines. But then these quote unquote characters have free will within the simulation.

And we're kind of watching to see what are they going to do inside this? We're almost like the guy, like. [00:10:00] We are the version of our own guides up in the divine kingdom watching us. We're watching like the Ramonas and the Vickys to see like, what are they going to do? Are they going to learn their lesson?

Are they going to repeat the pattern? Are they going to get in their own way? And we're eating the popcorn. So I do think there's something very, there's something very profound about it to me. But I'll stop right there because I don't want to go on and on., I was going to say, I always, whenever anyone kind of goes, Oh, you work in reality TV and gives me that judgmental look, I'm just like, you know, Shakespeare was not renowned during his time. They were saying he was making art for groundlings or, you know, the poor population. And now. Obviously it's studied in every school across the world.

, and I think for me as a reality TV producer, , I primarily work in post production. So oftentimes I come onto a show where they've been shooting for a couple months and we have hours and hours of footage and whole storylines of people. And it's really about watching the footage and trying to figure out.

What about their story [00:11:00] is their journey? What is happening unconsciously that you need to get out there? A lot of the times we're figuring out where do you need interview bites that tell a deeper part of the story or what's really happening. While this lunch scene is happening. What's what are they really thinking?

What are they really going through and a lot of the times the cast doesn't know they they don't know they are acting from maybe a lizard brain or an instinct or a trigger and as producers you have to dig into that and investigate and then bring it back to the cast and interview and say You know, where are you going through this?

Where are you going to do that? And a lot of cast members really go through transformational journeys doing reality TV . So this pivots pretty nicely into Shannon Bedore, where should, where should we begin? I feel like there's so much and I'm very overwhelmed with like where to start with her. I had your same experience where even just kind of approaching [00:12:00] Shannon. I do have this sense. I mean, I said the words like, She's a lot like there's a lot it's overwhelming. And I think, as we all know, I think Shannon is prone to overwhelm herself. Uh, there's a lot of energy there.

I think as well, I'm sure we'll get into, there's a lot of what we might call dysregulated energy. So it's just interesting to notice, like in the place where we're in this field of Shannon Bedore, just even this initial experience of like, Oh boy, there's a lot here, you know, which is also how I think a lot of people who know her personally.

Like Tamra, for example, end up experiencing her, like, she's a fucking lot, you know, so, I don't know, I just find sometimes it's helpful to, like, name out loud the energetic experience of the episode as a reflection, perhaps, of the person that we're exploring, cause she, I mean, it is a lot, , she's a great reality TV cast member because she puts it all out there. She doesn't have a lot of shame. She isn't afraid to [00:13:00] tell stories that other people would probably be ashamed or afraid to share. Sometimes she over, well, all the time she over shares. Um, and she really opens. herself up to a lot of criticism and not a lot of self awareness.

, so that's usually someone who brings a lot to the table when filming a show just in general. Which I think a lot of people probably are triggered by including probably Heather. And me. At times. Shannon can be tough for me. She's tough. I find her to I want to be clear, I have a lot of empathy for the position she's in this season, so I don't want to I don't want my transparency with my difficulty with Shannon on a personality level to be construed for not having empathy for where she is this season, nor is it a defense.

of Tamra and Alexis and the way they're treating her this season. Although I do have thoughts about that, but she's, she, well, I'm not necessarily triggered by the same things like Heather is triggered by, but she's, she's, I find [00:14:00] her to be a difficult personality for sure. Well, I think one of the things that I often feel like triggered by with her is Like Jenny, I appreciate you saying how much she brings in so much of her story and it feels like this vulnerability, but the vulnerability feels intentional and meant to do something for her own gain, as opposed to like a vulnerability to gain self awareness or to grow in some sort of capacity.

And I think that can be really hard for me. . Probably related to my own history and my own mother and things I see in Shannon that remind me of her. , but, and I think it contributes to something we kind of all like talked about when we were kind of touching base about her was like where it feels like she holds this victim mentality and that she is like a victim to herself, her circumstance, like things are happening to her and she doesn't have this control over what's happening and we see multiple evidence of that throughout like the book.

all of her experiences in the different seasons and the drama she brings in from David [00:15:00] to gaining weight to John to now. It feels a little less with her DUI. It feels like she is taking some sort of accountability and so that feels like some growth but, oh, let me get some eyes.

Oh, I want to hear some more about what you're thinking. I likewise, , when I do get triggered by Shannon, it usually is like, the perpetual victim hood. And the thing is Shannon's so interesting. And this really jumped out at me when I was doing, you know, we did some selective rewatching, you know, throughout the seasons. Like she's very, actually for someone who's so dysregulated and at times, and I, I want to explore this like literally cut off from herself where she literally doesn't remember saying things that she said, which is funny.

Fascinating to me, but, um, there is this, , deep commitment to victim hood. And, oh, yeah, I was saying, she'll say, I'm not a victim. I'm not a victim. I can't count the number of times she'll say things like, I don't want to be a [00:16:00] victim. You know, so she has enough awareness to understand that she is positioning herself as a victim and it's almost like she feels like if she acknowledges it out loud, somehow that mitigates the fact that she That mitigates her self victimization, but she's still doing it.

I mean, just because you call it out and name it, it's almost like You know, someone pointing out their flaw before someone else has a chance to do it. It almost feels like sort of another very sort of subtle vehicle of control where it's like she's spotting it before someone else can spot it. But she does do it.

She's constantly a victim. She's constantly in situations where she feels like a victim. , but it almost feels to me and I don't know what my mean by this, but I'm just going to say it out loud and see where it goes, that there's some aspect of like having to survive.

Like, like, some sort of, I don't want to say it's like necessarily like in her it lives as like a life or death thing, but it feels kind of like, as I'm feeling it now, like I'm kind of out on my own [00:17:00] out here and I need to do what I need to do to survive, so it's almost like the archetype of like, you know, I mean, I don't really remember Annie, but like little orphan Annie who just needs a lot of help from people and I just need to like get my needs met and do what I need to do to get those needs met.

And it's kind of this like constant drama in her internal experience because it does feel like some sort of quest for survival. But within that, yes, I think that she's very, I mean, I don't know how conscious it is, but at least unconsciously, it feels so tactical. It feels so covertly manipulative. It feels like on a certain level, she knows exactly what she's doing.

So the reason why I was making eyes. was, you know, Shannon's done something very powerful this season. Now, Tamara and Alexis have helped her out tremendously by being so cruel to her because she is being the target of cruel behavior, which immediately makes her into an underdog and immediately makes her empathetic.

[00:18:00] So, I, you know, that, a lot of that's on them, but I will say Shannon came into the season kind of handling this whole thing masterfully. Again, I don't know that I've necessarily felt that she's really taken ownership of the DUI, but she's at least, she's spoken to it in a way that a lot of other people, like, in the viewing audience seem to think that she has taken responsibility for it.

She came in, she gave the most tearful, heartfelt apology to Gina. She got back in good with Gina. She had lunch with Heather Dubrow. She smoothed that over. She's deep in the season of her. I'm not a victim mode. I'm doing what I need to do. She's making it look good. She's making it sound good. And I've been watching it this whole time being like, damn, Shannon, you knew what you fucking had to do to come in and make this look good.

I don't know. Like, I feel like for as much grief as she gets. I feel like Gina is someone who really took her DUI to heart and really kind of internalized something and really made some changes in [00:19:00] herself. And, and, you know, with an intention to actually change similar to like, you know, Tamara leaving Simon, I felt like there was something in her.

That's like, I'm catalyzing something that I really want to take me to the next level in my life. Whereas my personal sense of Shannon, the season, it feels like she's just trying to get things back to normal where she can then be an energy vampire again.

And it's almost like some part of her knows because I fucked up. I gotta clean some stuff up, I gotta make this look a certain way, I gotta get back in good, and then once I'm there, Okay, great, I get to suck you dry again. But she's smart enough to know she can't do that right now. So, I guess I, I guess I'm giving her a little bit less benefit of the doubt.

And I'll just stop there. Well, it's interesting because I think you're already kind of talking about these like different parts at her that are that are like parts in her that are at play. Um, in trying to like create some like equilibrium right now. Like there's [00:20:00] this manager that is coming out right now.

That's like, okay, I have to get things into place because if I come in dysregulated, like, Then I will look like the bad guy or I'll have to like face something that I really don't want to face. But the fact that she has that like part in her, that's able to like regulate in some way is interesting because it, we, we didn't, we haven't seen it before.

Like that's something it feels like new or, or maybe I just missed it because she always seems like such a mess or dysregulated that to see her be able to like embody some regulation and come in and even like that initial. scene with her and Lexi. I'm going to call her Lexi just because I think it's fun.

Um, that initial scene with her and Lexi, like there's this like, Shannon's very calm and very like rational. And it was almost like, and everyone's looking out the window, like Shannon's going to flip out. Everyone was ready for like Shannon to have a mental breakdown in that moment. And she did. Didn't and [00:21:00] so it tells me there is this yeah, like a survival part of her that like yeah And what's it surviving for?

I think it's interesting what you're bringing up this idea that it's surviving to get back to the place where she can go back into like energy vampire victimhood or some sort of like Whatever that wound is that creates that energy for her. It's an interesting idea Um, i'm gonna be curious to see how that plays out for sure I think she kind of did that with david after the affair too because I mean, she definitely fell apart off camera, but when we see her come on camera with the couple's therapy , she really showed up like i'm gonna save my marriage like there's a 70 percent divorce rate in OC and I'm not going to be one of them.

I'm going to fix this. And she almost like forgives him for the affair very easily. And it's like, I'm going to show up and fix this. I think that was another time where I was like, Oh, this is giving me what she's doing now, which is very much that cleanup [00:22:00] manager. , I would probably say it's mostly unconscious, but that the emotional dysregulation, look, I think there's obvious truth in it for sure. And that it's also a tool that she wields. And I, I am really interested in the more powerful aspects of Shannon.

Cause you're right, Jenny. Like that was an example where she had, Drive, right? Like where she had visible forward moving drive and resolve, which again, confirms to me that she has it in her. And I do, I think that Shannon, obviously she's a very powerful woman. She's got, even in her dysregulation, she's got powerful feelings, right?

To me, I interpret that as powerful life force. I think there's huge power in her. And you know, one of the things that we started exploring just in our initial chats that I am so drawn to. Is the possibility of where Shannon has been manipulative behind the scenes, even like from a show standpoint, the places where it feels pretty clear to me, she's lied, [00:23:00] you know, she's lying.

, because again, it just suggests to me that there is a relationship in her towards, yeah, manipulation and towards staging things and towards, you know, because she's like the first person, like, In her dysregulation, you know, she's the first person to start screaming about, like, I'm honest. I'm loyal. I'm trustworthy.

Like part of what will flip her out is when she gets sort of questioned, you know, in certain ways about her character. And yet, especially in the rewatch, I was seeing it. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm seeing so many specific instances where it's it's clear that she either really was setting something up or I'm seeing her lie on camera.

I mean, I can give a specific example. I mean, should we get into specific examples? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm just going, so, you know, one of the first, um, one of the first kind of like instances where her possible Production manipulation was called into question. Was that seventies party with Kelly Dodd, where she hosted a seventies party where [00:24:00] the big fight was about her looking like Mrs.

Roper, which as a three's company fan, never fails to delight me that there's a whole fight about looking like Mrs. Roper, but she's looking like Mrs. Roper. And, you know, people may remember she, she and Shannon's version unknowingly invites these two women. Who have personal history with Kelly Dodd and gossip about her.

And, you know, Shannon swears up and down. She didn't know prior to inviting them that they knew Kelly. You know, we never really, there's no way for us to know whether she's telling the truth about that or not. But what I will say is those two women, when you watch that scene, they definitely came in hot.

They came in with an agenda to my mind. There is no fucking way they didn't come in there. Knowing that they were gonna like, you know, bring stuff to the surface about Kelly because one of, I mean, maybe it's editing, but one of them almost immediately makes a comment about Because, you know, Kelly's there with her husband at the time, Michael, right?

And she makes a [00:25:00] comment about like, Oh yeah, I met you before, but you were with a man who's not this man. You know, she was stirring shit up. And so then anyways, later at the party, Shannon's there with these two women, and they're gossiping about Kelly, and they're talking shit. And I think Tamra, you know, doing what she does, goes and tells Kelly, oh, they're talking shit about you.

Uh, Kelly comes back, and she's like, And says, I heard you were talking shit about me. And Shannon just immediately, she said, no, no, we weren't. We, they were just trying to help you find your purse, which was a total lie. And it was such a small moment. But when I saw it, I was like, there it is. It was caught on camera.

You are fucking lying right now. You were talking shit. You were encouraging them. You were totally in the muck and the mire of Badmouthing Kelly. She has come in and confronted you about it. And you just acted. all innocent and literally said, no, they were just trying to help you find your purse. So that right there, even though it's a micro moment, I'm like, it got spotted.

You just got caught [00:26:00] lying and acting innocent. And so that to me opens up a whole doorway into where else does she do this? And how big do the lies get? Get, I mean, there's a ton of other examples I could get into, but that's right. Well, then it also kind of makes me think about like this whole thing with John and this 75 K for the, for the facelift and the story she tells the women about, I pay for everything with him.

And then we're hearing about the 75 K and it's sort of like, that's really confusing. And I think there's often like a lot of like really confusing information that comes from her. And part of what comes up for me around that is like, there is a way she wants to be seen that. Like some value she's holding about like that.

I'm loyal. I'm this I'm that and she wants to live by that But then I don't know if it's the game of the show or if it's the game of herself and probably a little bit of both that make her move outside of those and then she has to face this like huge conflict between I think think of myself as this like [00:27:00] loyal person who is like this.

And so when I act outside of that, I'm going to like completely deny it. Like there's some like story. She feels like she has, like, that's what I get from it. This like story, she feels like she has to tell to Calm the inner conflict she has within herself if she like actually reflects on like, no, I was just talking shit about Kelly or, you know, I don't know if it's her reality, if it's a conscious lie, how much of it is overt versus covert and conscious versus unconscious, also with Heather, when Heather rejoins the show, and she had that friend who had sued Terry Dubrow, and Shannon knew, but didn't tell her, but , like, producers would know the backstory with this woman, and that's why they brought her on the show,

but then Shannon made herself. The main arbiter of this information. And instead of doing the adult thing, which is just taking Heather out to lunch and telling her, um, she spread it around to Gina. Yeah. And then she can say, Oh, I'm [00:28:00] innocent. I wasn't going to say anything. Um, which I did find it strange that Heather was like, I didn't want to know, like, wouldn't you want to know your friend sued your husband, but.

I actually like that was sort of a strangely refreshing moment for me with Heather because it was so on it. Like, I don't know, there was something about, oh, I guess just to explain the audience. Uh, cause I, I, I clocked that moment too, where Heather says to Gina, like, cause she's talking about like, don't shoot the messenger.

Like Heather basically says, I would have rather just not known about this. Cause basically ignorance is bliss. And when she said that, I was like, wow, I was like, that's just so honest. Which usually, you know, as we all know, Heather. Can get very caught up in her pretenses. So it just felt, I mean, I know that in a way she was sort of copying to just wanting to be in denial, but I found her candidness about that strangely refreshing anyways, that's a digression.

But, that's another classic example of like, yeah, did Shannon, did she, or did she not mean to like stir the [00:29:00] pot? Right. And I want to say. You know, and this is what's so fascinating to me about Shannon. She's so good at playing dumb. I mean, even with my current lens of basically buying into the idea that there is something very manipulative and deceptive about her, , when she adamantly denies this stuff, there's still this part of me that's like, wait.

Maybe this was just an innocent mistake somehow. And I have to remind myself of like all the little micro moments I've clocked. But, you know, I was thinking about that particular situation and I suddenly realized, I was like, this is actually, this is like straight out of the Lisa Vanderpump playbook. I mean, if you go back to like puppy gate, which is ultimately what drove Lisa Vanderpump off the show, she did that thing, right.

Where. She told other people like Teddy Mellencamp and John Sessa, like what was going on with the dog, John. comes out with the dog, right? And then I think it's Teddy or someone comes out with the dog and either Teddy or Dr. John says, Oh, [00:30:00] is that the dog that Dorit abandoned? And Lisa Vanderpump does this thing about, Oh no, no, no.

We're not talking about that. You know, like when she's on camera, she's the one who gets to say, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. You know, and that's kind of like her game. She gets to act like the one who's shutting it down That's literally what Shannon was doing on this episode of OSC where Gina brings it up on camera and she's like, no, no, no, we're not doing that, you know?

And so it was just interesting for me because again, I think Shannon where Shannon has Lisa Vanderpump beat is she is so much better at playing the doe eyed. victim who didn't mean it, you know, and then once Heather calls her out on it, you know, that's what Shannon reverts to. It's just like, she, she does, she becomes the victim and it's just like, I didn't mean it.

I'm so sorry. You know, like I'm so loyal. I'm so trustworthy. And I actually have something to say about those sort of conflicting aspects of her in response to what you had said, , Sam, but I did, I don't want to cut [00:31:00] anyone off if, No, I just want to say I, I buy it sometimes in that Heather moment. I was like, I don't know, I felt that she was more innocent than she was getting treated by Heather. , do you think it's a trap or do you actually believe her?

I believe her sometimes, but I think because she believes it, I think the difference is like Lisa Vanderpump knows what she's doing. She set up production to bring the dog out. Like, it's just very obvious to me. Whereas I think Shannon's lies and. You know, twisting things. She really believes it. She's not acting like you believe that she believes it, but you don't necessarily believe her, right?

Like, I think that's the discrepancy, and like, where like, you, you believe that she believes in whatever is manifesting in her in that moment. And it's interesting that like, I do, I wonder for you, Jenny, I do know that like you have some triggers with Heather Dubrow and it feels like they are, and we talked about this when we did our Heather podcast, like there is such an antithesis between those two people.

And if [00:32:00] that like makes you want to like move to one side or the other,

I think in general I relate more to the person that's vulnerable and a mess and puts it all out there that I can dive into that mess. I don't know if that's the reality TV producer or that's just my personal taste, um, rather than the very controlled person who wants to present a certain way. But I think one thing I'd love to hear from you both about is when Shannon is talking about her relationship with John and she says so clearly to the camera, like our relationship is.

We just have fights that paralyze me. That statement from her was like, Oh my God, I, I understand Shannon so much more from it because I was like, she really believes that her relationship is fine and that having fights that paralyze you is somehow totally acceptable. But again, is this a trap that I fell into?

I'm not sure. Well, before we, can I come back to just the, I just want to complete this [00:33:00] thought before it's lost. Um, which, yeah, cause I'm just sort of holding those two different parts of Shannon or the two potential parts of Shannon of like, kind of like the innocent. Yeah. who protests, you know, her loyalty or in our innocence.

And then this possible kind of like manipulative shit stir behind the scenes. And it's almost like, cause you were saying Sam about an investment in appearing in a certain way, like, you know, having these attributes and it's almost like, let's just say being the dysregulated victim is a finally honed.

Survival tool for her, right? If she were growing up in a chaotic household, and I really actually do want to talk about like the possible energy of her childhood. But if she was, let's say she was growing up in a chaotic, dysregulated household, um, That being the helpless, dysregulated child may have been like a real coping mechanism to get and receive help or attention.

Or maybe as I'm saying this, maybe even as like a distraction from like what was really [00:34:00] going on on a deeper level in the household. Regardless, if we kind of go with this possible theory that, Again, the dysregulated, helpless victim, like girl who can't help herself, is a finely honed survival tool. Well, in order to believe that, right?

I mean, the very essence of being a dysregulated victim, damsel in distress, is you are disowning your personal power. Like, you can't be a Powerful agent of catalyzing force and change and also be a helpless victim. Right. And yet I think that as we are exploring, I think that lives in Shannon. So it's almost like the way that I experienced it is there are these, like the very notion of the helpless victim as a survival tool inherently suggests someone who, even if it's unconscious.

Is, does have a strong force of agency and will, and it almost feels like that strong force of agency and [00:35:00] will in getting pushed down underground, it then sort of comes out right in these other ways, these sort of more underground sneaky ways, because again, she can't own it directly. Because if she owns it directly, she's no longer the helpless victim.

But then it's also like, she also can't be covertly manipulative either because then that undercuts the helpless victim narrative. So it's almost like, yeah, there's this kind of, and I kind of explored this with Tom Sandoval a bit, but there's like, almost like this split that occurs between the po It, like, they feel like, feed into each other.

The powerful drive in me goes into quote unquote pretending to be a helpless victim. And by being a helpless victim, I can't be a powerful agent of catalyzing change, which means I cannot take responsibility. Anything that I'm doing, even though I'm doing it underground, because this is such a strong energy in me.

And as I'm saying this, the last thing I'll say, it's almost like I feel like that strong catalyzing part of her is the one who ended up on a TV show. Like [00:36:00] is the one who's a celebrity, you know what I mean? Like is the one who, yeah, like has sort of created so much for herself in this sort of second part of her life.

Although again, doing it based on a persona on a TV show of being the helpless victim who's always terrorized by other people. That was a lot. That was kind of life changing what you just said. I hope she doesn't get in another relationship, even though she's apparently doing this dating show with Bravo now. I was, I wasn't loving that they picked her for it only because I've seen on the show.

When she's in a position of, like, this season where she has to be accountable and she has to be an agent of her own success or demise, she does get her stuff together. And she did that with David when they were in couples counseling. She did that after the divorce and then she just reverted back with John.

I really appreciate you bringing in that piece that, I was kind of like dwelling on about like her childhood. There've been like little scenes throughout the series [00:37:00] between her and her mom when her and David were fighting, where she talks about how her father cheated on her mother and that her mother stayed and there's a lot of like, They have like kind of a conversation about that.

And then later in this season, she has this lunch with her dad where she talks about like the shibly that's in the, that was in the kitchen all the time, the big box of shibly or whatever. And like that, it seems like there's some insinuation that he may have been some sort of functional alcoholic. I don't know, like again, insinuation based on like, then they flashback to We're a fun family.

We have fun. And then there's all these scenes of Shannon being drunk and having fun. And so to, to me, there is some insinuation that like home was not a great, was, was a challenging place. There was some challenging dynamics that were present there between her mom and her dad. I don't know, you know, again, if you're saying your father's drinking a lot, like what that could bring in.

And. She is an oldest child too, which I think that birth order speaks to a lot. Like I think oldest children tend to [00:38:00] play a certain role in the family and how well she played it may also kind of play into why she's engaging in some of this, like victim mentality. I really do feel, and I feel it in the group of women that there is something about that mentality that gets her certain attention, both to From the women and from the audience that is really pleasing for her.

That feels really good to her. And so she's being, it feels similar to like, when we talk about like Lindsey Hubbard and some of her, like her activation and how it gets reinforced by audiences getting like excited about her being activated, it feels very similar that like people get more connected to show or like, start to like root for Shannon in that victim mentality.

And therefore it enables her to not have to take any accountability. Well, that's what that's actually connected to my kind of awareness of the start of her journey. That was season nine, right? Because look, I was someone, as much as I'm saying now that she can trigger me, I loved her.

[00:39:00] First season, like I was rooting for her. I, you know, another example, by the way, Oh God, she's so fucking good. I think she is such a little trickster. Um, she's so good at what she does because look, were there moments in season nine where she freaked out? Yes, obviously she's, you know, you will all see the truth.

It's all on fucking camera. Uh, one of the first, like fourth wall breaks. Right. Um, but I also will say. So part of what made her so likeable, again, she was this underdog, she was fucking terrorized by Tamara and Heather that season. And again, interestingly, in a lot of those situations, she actually kept her cool.

Um, like, cause Heather especially kept poking and poking and poking. And again, this is an overused word, but Heather actually was gaslighting her and she kept trying to revise history and telling her, oh, you were screaming at me when she ended up being perfectly calm. And I remember [00:40:00] just having so much empathy for her and just.

being like, Oh my God, these women are terrorizing her. She's so misunderstood. She's emotionally intelligent. She's, you know, so reasonable. And so many of these situations, you know, and then the moments where she did burst, I was rooting for her. Cause I was kind of like, you know what, you kind of deserve this moment.

You earn this moment. And it's just so interesting because to me, in terms of pattern, I was like, Oh, did I fall in to the Shannon Bedore Venus flashback? Because what I've noticed is like, she's always, it seems like she's always being terrorized by someone. She's always being treated unfairly by someone.

So even like with the whole Heather Dubrow thing from two seasons ago, you know, Heather's, you know, hackles got triggered. And then she's threatening the lawsuit. Right. And I remember everyone was like, Oh my God. on Shannon's side because of like the intensity with which Heather went after her now, you know, Alexis and Tamara are going after her.

John Jansen's going after her. , I just noticed Shannon tends to get terrorized by [00:41:00] people in really aggressive ways. There's the whole thing where like Vicky starts to accuse David of abusing her and she blames gaining weight on Vicky and this, that feels very kind of in this realm of things.

Well, don't even get me. I, well, this is a whole digression and maybe we'll get there. I think that, so, you know, OC had a slump for a while as we all know. I single handedly blame Shannon for it because I think it was her unwillingness. To forgive Vicky for like two seasons. She held onto that. I have so much to say about the way she handled the whole Brooks thing.

I feel like that's maybe I need to save that, but like, I feel like she drove that show into the ground with her refusal to let Vicky off the hook and to move on in their friendship, pretending that it was about principles of cancer scams and this and that. When clearly it wasn't because she did end up.

Becoming friends with her again. Um, but I guess, yeah, just to kind of like go back and just to reiterate, like, yeah, it just feels like she, she roped me in through her position as the, the [00:42:00] victimized underdog who gets that attention. And when I was hearing you speak before Sam, like before I brought up season nine, I could just feel it.

I could just feel the possibility of, yes. Like. This girl who gets attention at the dinner table by falling apart. And again, it's like, not only does she get attention, but I just keep coming back to this flavor of like, and it distracts from the real issue. It's like that there's something chaotic going on here.

And if I just do my thing. You know what I mean? Breakdown or whatnot. It's like, I get all this validating attention and it also, it feels like again, survival. It puts out some other fire. I don't know. That's just what I'm feeling intuitively. , yeah, I don't know what happened in that asshole, but this is like another Bravo Liberty where, when I look at the way that she's presenting in present day life, cause she is high functioning. And as we're saying, like, she's got that, like, she has that agency, but I'm just like, something fucking happened.

I mean, I don't mean like one event, but I just mean, like, I know that it's presented as like, okay, yeah, my father cheated. They [00:43:00] got divorced, but we were happy. I don't really believe that for a second, because again, I'm just going back. For example, I think maybe one of you already mentioned this, but that scene at the doppelganger party last season, where she was freaking out about them talking about her relationship with John and Emily is saying to her, Shannon, like, you can't.

Call me drunk and you tell me these things. And again, Shannon, this is another example of just like the way she protests with such conviction. That's not true. I did it once four years ago. And Emily just looks at her and says, Shannon. It was a few months ago at Javier's, you told me all this stuff and Shannon just freezes and you just see, I mean, people kind of, I mean, obviously people clocked it, it was a big moment, but it was almost played for laughs in the, like, um, you know, in the collective and people were like, Oh, it's so funny.

But like what I saw was someone like the wheels turning and someone really realizing. Holy shit, like, I must [00:44:00] have done this. Holy shit, I don't remember. Holy shit, like, there's a disconnect here. And the reason why I'm bringing that up, I'm like, when I, Jamie, take that in, I'm like, this split in her is huge.

Like, I, and to your point, Jenny, like, I believe in the moment. She believes a lot of what she's saying because I've seen her Literally, quote unquote, forget things. And so the reason I'm saying this is I'm just like, Oh, and the other thing that I always want to bring in in terms of her childhood that I'll connect all together is like, I do feel such an addiction to the drama and the heightened state of anxiety.

So when I hear all these people talking about how Shannon's making these calls at night at 2am in the morning, crying to them, it's Tamara, it's Taylor, it's Emily, it's Heather. It's like, I just get this sense of this woman who's just, I mean, truly in a constant state of heightened anxiety, fear, hysteria, dysregulated emotion.

So when I see that, I'm just like, Again, I don't know what happened, but for [00:45:00] Shannon to be this habitually attached to a constant state of heightened anxiety and drama, and for her to have a split in her that is so deep that she is literally forgetting things, but then acting like You know, speaking with like the deepest truth of conviction, even though she's entirely wrong about what she's saying.

I'm just like, I don't know what happened in that childhood, but there was stuff going on for her to now be having this kind of internalized experience of like constant heightened dysregulated emotion and such deep splits. And I mean, when I say that, I mean, of course it makes me feel for her. I'm like, what was going on in that childhood? But then when I say that question, what was going on in that childhood? What comes up for me intuitively is like feeling this potential force of denial in that family system, that there was shit going on that was not being talked about, which could explain a lot about.

Shannon's own [00:46:00] relationship right now to denial and to denying to the truth of how she shows up in relationships and the part that she plays in all of this, including her friendship with Tamra, yeah, just for some context, in couples therapy, the couples retreat counselor made them look at pictures of themselves as a child and talk a little bit.

And I do remember she said, all I remember are my parents where they were fighting all the time and that my dad was cheating and I had to keep his secret. So that totally aligns with everything you just said. That makes so much sense. Like that gives so much context. I can't believe I missed that part.

Um, but it, it makes so much sense. I really appreciate this idea of this like split in her and this conflict and this survival and I'm just like almost visualizing the nervous system move through this like fight or flight response in her and deciding like which Part to take on to protect herself, to get [00:47:00] attention, to deflect, to, she does also a lot of like scapegoating, like anything to keep it off of herself.

And it's interesting to hear that in context of like holding her father's secrets and what that does to a child to feel like the secret keeper of the family and how the pressure of that, the pain of that, the like how she must have to disconnect from her own reality then to do that. Okay. Right. Like I think about like, when, you know, your parent has done something bad, one of the ways you're going to protect yourself is to either internalize a way that it's your fault, right?

Like self blame is a big product of trauma. That's how we organize and try to understand things and say, well, if I, you know, if this bad thing happens, I must've done something to cause it. But the other way we can deal with it is to like, just try to like completely disconnect from it. And so it almost like tracks in how she may create these like disconnects with reality for herself when something is overwhelming, [00:48:00] or doesn't match something that like, Something inside of her.

Yeah, or paralyzes her. Paralyzes her beyond belief. Fights that paralyze me. I think she's used to being paralyzed. Yeah, I think that's like probably a normal, like, that's almost like her baseline. Paralyzed is probably much easier for her than a lot of other things. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I think paralysis is almost like another word for what I was speaking to.

It feels like she lives in this constant heightened state of like paralyzed. I'm paralyzed! Paralyzed. I'm paralyzed. What do I do? Tamara, what do I do? What do I do? Like, you know, like it feels like that, that, that, yeah, that heightened emotion. Um, yeah, I totally missed that. I didn't see that scene in my rewatch, but that's huge.

I mean, just that one detail of like keeping her father's secrets, like that right there, and I'm sure you can, um, you know, confirm the Sam, but like as someone who works with people, that's. Totally the type of thing that can come up that someone has maybe [00:49:00] minimized. Um, or maybe they're like, yeah, like they're aware they have feelings about it, but they question their, um, right to have feelings about it and they feel guilty.

So they push it down. So in my work, that's like a total example of something that we might excavate to really say like. No, this is actually traumatizing. Like for a child to have to carry the weight. And I don't know if the secrets were specifically about infidelity, but if they were, that's even like, I mean, that's just, that's horrible and it's interesting.

And so I guess maybe as a little, uh, sidebar, if you're listening to this and perhaps had to keep secrets for your parents and have perhaps maybe minimize that for yourself, maybe you want to take a little look at it. I didn't really, again, because there was so much to take in prior to the recording this episode, I actually didn't really do that many like intuitive drop ins as preparation, which I often do.

But the one thing I did do when I was kind of feeling into Shannon's sort of constant, like her sort of default [00:50:00] baseline of constant heightened drama. And I was just like, well, what would it mean for her if everything was just calm and low key and everything was fine. And I kind of just sort of started to drop into like, yeah, what might Shannon's Relationship to peace and calm might be and it is interesting because I just On a very general level, I did feel this huge primal, overwhelming rage that in my experience as Shannon in that moment, if I was right about it was like, there's just no room or space for any of this.

So like when I hear something like that, I can imagine, yeah, like as a child on some level, knowing this is putting me in a horrible situation that doesn't feel good, but then there's not space or room for me or permission for me to like, you know, speak to what's happening. And then if I am Shannon storms, the door, and I have this powerful energy in me that wants to move and wants to like say things.

And I'm. I have to like push that [00:51:00] down. Um, I, again, I, I, I, even in my body, I'm starting to feel like you guys can't see me at home, but like, like my hands are shaking. I'm starting to feel like, it's interesting a lot of times, you know, when I'm working with clients, I feel like both anxiety and depression.

are often symptomatic of like strong currents of energy that want to move through you that aren't having like, they're literally depressed. And it's almost like I feel like that, like that this heightened hysteria and Shannon is perhaps just these like powerful currents of energy that had something to say from a very young age about what was going on, but there was just nowhere to put it.

And then also just the bind to of like, Perhaps rage at her father, but I also wonder too, like there's a collusion there. Right. So I wonder if there was mileage she was getting out of that as a kid of like being close to dad being daddy's little girl. I, you know, I guard his secrets, you know, like there could, which, you know, I mean, this is sort of bleeding perhaps into a relationship with men, but like there could be a real sort of inner [00:52:00] conflict there about both what she, what's valued in her, um, and also what she's furious about at the same time and the price she has to pay in order to sort of be good, you know, in relationship to the man.

I want to talk about that scene with her father, but I'll stop there. I'm really glad you said that thing about, you know, the anger towards her father, but maybe having to disown that in some way in order to maintain a relationship. Cause when I think about kids who have to hold secret for their parents, like the things that come up for me are like, how do you preserve that relationship with your family?

And then how do you resolve the inner conflict of knowing something bad about your parents? And then I think, Oh, this. hysteria she goes through is a total distraction from all of that. She doesn't have to deal with any of that by being overly emotional and get it and bringing the like be almost being the scapegoat of the family.

Like I think about when I do family therapy, there's always one person like we're coming in because this [00:53:00] person in the family has a problem. And then as you go through it, it's like, Oh, no, it's not that person like families have issues because there are dynamics that happen between each each person between two people and three people and four people and then the different diets and triads that can happen.

And so it feels like there's a lot of that that must have been going on. And then we see it replay like even go to that first season when she comes in. And I know you guys were all charmed by her. I wasn't quite as charmed. Good for you. Good for you. I felt her deflection of her marital issues onto every like, everyone else is the problem, and if I focus on everyone else doing wrong, I don't have to look at what's going on between me and David.

I don't have to look at this issue that is happening here that is actually much harder for me to To make space for, so I can create these mini dramas outside of me that allow me to avoid it. Well, it's funny you say that. Cause in, when I did that quick little drop it and it was literally like 15 seconds, that is part of what I felt.

It's like, I felt this like [00:54:00] unbridled rage that there's no room for it. And then it was like, yeah. And if I let this through, I have to deal with the real shit. Like I have to deal with what's really going on inside me. So yeah, I, Oh God, sometimes I wish I could like. Sensorially, what's the word? Like I feel things in my body and sensation ways, and I'm just getting such an energetic connection of like, yeah, the way that there's constant fires and dramas and Shannon's adult life in the way that allows her to stay on kind of a superficial level of drama.

And then this possibility of a childhood where she is like cultivating a persona that again, like I've been saying from the beginning kind of takes the heat off something and it's like, it really is this sort of like, I'm sort of, I feeling in my body is like this hover, almost like a cloud that's sort of hovering over a landscape that we can't see because of like the storm cloud that's hovering.

Oh, it's interesting imagery. Cause again, Shannon's storms of adore. Um, but yeah, no, I totally hear you. An example [00:55:00] that I can think of that I saw on screen was, you know, the whole situation with David and the affair, , and you were talking about depression. I feel like when they went to the couples therapy and then they did their renewal of their vows, it very much feels like they didn't get to the heart of what the issue was.

 And that to me is where the depression came in. You didn't really address the issue with David, you didn't address the issue in your childhood that you're replaying out the same pattern now with your husband and your children, and it.

It's cultivating and you gaining weight and being depressed, um, and I actually think, you know, as much as she held on to that marriage and tried to make it work, she would have been on a better path if she had said that was unacceptable and left him, I have a really dark take about her weight gain. And how it kind of feels like part of it may have been like, let me gain weight and look really ugly.

So when David leaves me, that's why he left me. Cause there's one scene where she [00:56:00] says, I've gained all this weight and David's no longer attracted to me. And he's going to leave. And I was like, Oh my gosh, there's something like even, it felt like there was something even deeper unconscious about

this, this physical representation of what was already happening as a way to not, , acknowledge that, , she was A real part of like what was going on between her and David, well, it's interesting too, because if you do think about the show as kind of like one facet of her actual agency, you know, and her, yeah, being a powerful creator in her life of powerful things, it's interesting.

You know, it's like her, cause this is a career, like her career takes off. Right. And she's creating success in her own right. She's tapping more into that catalyzing force. So this is kind of another version, or maybe like a layer of what you're bringing in of like, almost like a compensatory, uh, You know, it's like whack a mole.

It's like, so where, you know, something has to sort of arise to sort of keep bringing me [00:57:00] back down because she even said, and I remember clocking this in the day when she first said this. Oh, she said this at the couples retreat. She's like, She says, what should have been the best year of my life got ruined because of David's affair.

And I remember, well, the reason why I'm bringing that in is I remember being like, Oh, Oh, like that's where I first knew. So you really care about the fame, which I, I mean, I guess it was naive of me to think, cause I, part of what I loved about her in season nine is she, and this is kind of what I love about Orange County in general is, , I kind of felt like she felt like one of the more real people, like almost like she accidentally stumbled onto reality TV and I didn't immediately experience her as someone who really cared that much about the fame, at least compared to like people in the other franchises.

So then when she said this should have been the best year of my life, I was like, okay, like you do care about this a lot more than maybe I was willing to admit last season, but it's, but, but it's also an interesting comment just in terms of what I just brought in of like, I'm starting to step into something that feels like on [00:58:00] track and congruent for my life and my power.

Isn't it in the, you know, in the, in the spirit of like us being in our, all of us being in our waking dreams of lives that we're sort of co creating on some level. Isn't it interesting that right at that moment, that's when David goes and has an affair. That's when their marriage breaks down. That's when she starts gaining weight.

Again, it's sort of like this, this force that's sort of pulling her down from having that full agency in her life. Well, it's interesting that the show becomes this thing of agency and yet it also totally reinforces the lack of agency. I mean, that's kind of been Real Housewives of Orange County from the beginning.

Outside of Vicki, who had her own successful business, pretty much every other housewife has come on very much as a secondary. Their husband was the breadwinner, they're the stay at home wife, and then as the show goes on, that collapses because they get their own. Money. Um, or lose their money or change husbands.

Um, and you see them really evolve, [00:59:00] which is so different from the other housewives. Where do you think if you wanted to see Shannon be a new person this season? Or next season even, like, what would you want to see happen? The problem is I think she needs so much help.

 You know, I want to be very clear about what I'm saying. I do not condone. The way that Tamra has got about things this season and I mean, and I we can get into this too because I would love to talk about it because I mean, I think they're they're falling out, I think, is really interesting in terms of Shannon and pattern as well.

But, , No, Tamara clearly, you know, does not have Shannon's best interest at heart. And it's frustrating to me though, because I will say I, as is often the case with Tamara, I do feel like there's this kernel of wisdom in there. That's basically the voice saying like, like you need real help. Like, like, You need real fucking help and you're not [01:00:00] getting it.

And I do think because she, and I think there are a lot of things because she is high functioning because she can catalyze when she needs to, because there, she's so good at playing the empathetic woe is me. I think she gets surround. She's so good at getting people to surround her and rally around her and root for her and support her.

And I think that Tamra again. Not condoning her behavior this season, but there's this sort of like thread in there of this voice that's saying Shannon get it the fuck together This isn't about going to a therapist and blaming John and your bad taste in men like there are real issues here You have to deal with now Tamara's taking that to a place of like labeling or an alcoholic and all that stuff and I don't agree with that But what I do agree with is, you know to the point that we were exploring earlier My sense is there's a level of Trauma there that's very deep and I don't know that she or even a lot of the people in her life are really taking in how [01:01:00] deeply she's struggling and I'm concerned for her because I think she could go the rest of her life like this and I think her nervous system is like fried And in a constant state of fight or flight.

And so I think I probably, I would say she needs a time out, like a during the pause where she goes and really gets some really deep level of support for the things that she's not really been looking at. It might be kind of like more of a somber answer than you were looking for. I don't know that this gets resolved by like, you know what I mean?

Like seeing a therapist on camera. Part of it is that the show reinforces so much of it. And so it's very hard to see. Say that like, it, it feels very hard for her to do that work while being on the show because of the bind. It would put her in between like looking at herself, but then still needing to show up and create story in the way that she's always created story, which this is part of how she is as a character on this show, right?

Like the division between like, it's [01:02:00] not only a part of her now, it's like this thing that she has to embody to work. Yeah. I think Tamra is I think Tamra is triggered by the fact that, you know, she has been a victim of Shannon's energy vampire calling her at all nights and not really getting the support back that she wanted.

And so she knows that Shannon has deep issues, but at the same time, Tamra has been able to use Shannon as her puppet for many seasons and Tamra is a bit of a puppet. professional pot stirrer when it comes to the show. I also think Tamra's very aware and afraid of her own position on the show. I think she loved last season when she could get Shannon to drink with her and be her best friends and Trace Amigas could come back and they could do their show.

And I think, , for me, I wonder how much of Tamra calling her an alcoholic and calling her out is also an anger of like, now we can't be the Trace Amigas anymore because you've got a DUI. Oh, that's interesting. Well, it also feels [01:03:00] a product of like, Tamra thinks, had a, maybe was living a little in the comment section, I don't know, maybe thought that the audience was not gonna be pro Shannon, and that it was a good move to be hard on Shannon in this way.

Oh God, I'm giving Tamra so much more of the benefit of the doubt I always have this weird soft spot for Tamra. I think in part because of what you spoke to Jenny of, you know, in this, you know, you spoke to part of what I love about O.

C. I know a lot of people don't like O. C. I love O. C. But then I love, I love that, that shifting power dynamic of these, you know, sort of, like you said, sort of secondary players in their families. And then these women gain power and money and then their lives change.

Like it, to me, it's like such a satisfying arc. And I think Tamra really kind of typified that. And I think, cause you know, I was someone who back in the day really had strong feelings about Tamra and the way she treated Gretchen and all of that. But then when she left Simon and sort of created this new life for herself, it really, um, I don't know.

[01:04:00] Something, something happened for me where I just, I've been there with her on this journey. I don't know how long you guys have been watching the show, but like, I watched that all real time. So I always have this weird little soft spot for her, even though I'm completely, you know, I completely acknowledge all of the toxic destructive behavior.

I get it. Um, but you know, what I've always sort of keyed into when it came to Shannon is like, and it's interesting that you're talking about how she used Shannon because what I always feel off Tamra towards Shannon. Um, It's how used Tamra felt when she got dropped. And I do feel like, and look, I think a huge part of their relationship and their friendship was the collusion over disliking Vicky for sure.

That's never healthy. And I do think in the place where they were really colluding and they were kind of like proving something by being best friends against Vicky. Yeah. I mean, I think Tam, you know, and I also want, I was going to say Tamra, Picked up every fucking phone call. She was going to be like that really great friend to Shannon.

And I also think it's worth mentioning that also Tamra for all her, you know, [01:05:00] outspokenness on the show, she was in that, you know, what I would call like emotionally abusive relationship with, uh, Simon. And we do see sort of perhaps emotional boundary issues with their kids. Like. There's a way in which she's someone else who's got kind of it feels like there's a very pronounced like split in her where there's this like fiery rageful Aspect of her personality that comes out on the show But there's this other aspect of her that really stays quiet in relationship even with Vicky when they were together It's like you could feel it.

She had to play by certain rules to stay in deep relationship with Vicky. 

I it does feel like there's some sort of learned experience for Tamra where it's like, I have to quiet parts of myself for the sake of relationship.

And there is something I want to say about what I experience as Shannon's essence that I think is related to all this, but you know, Shannon has strong, powerful energy.

I do think Tamara is a truth teller in spirit. That's why I'm saying it's like, she's always had people's numbers. Like she was right about Gretchen. She just went somewhere destructive with it. I think she was right [01:06:00] about Jen last year. She just went somewhere destructive with it. I think she's right in a lot of ways about Shannon.

She goes somewhere destructive with it. But you know, the reason why I think she gets destructive is because I think somewhere she learned I have to stifle this truth teller in me in order to stay in relationship. And I think some part of her is so outraged by that. But you know, the reason why I bring this in is I think she betrayed a lot of boundaries in her relationship with Shannon.

She picked up that phone, she picked up that phone when she wanted to say no, she stifled her voice, she stifled her voice. And so then. When she gets fired from that show and Shannon drops her. I just, again, like I just feel as Tamara, it's like, I just feel so fucking devastated and used and drop like used and abused, you know, it's kind of how I experienced it.

And I think what's interesting is that. When she came back last season, and I think this is another example where Shannon took no responsibility. This is where you see Shannon get manipulative, where it's like, Tamara's telling her something very clearly, and guys, let's just be clear about something.

Vicky said the same thing. [01:07:00] Taylor Armstrong's now saying the same thing. Shannon was calling me at all times, hysterical. I took all her calls. I wanted to be there for her. The second I was fired from the show, She dropped me. So this isn't just Tamra for people out there who may be like, well, Tamra is a liar.

Multiple people have reported this at this point, that this is what Shannon does. And Tamra's giving it to her straight. And Shannon does that thing that drives me crazy where she's, she starts focusing on like the specifics rather than the big pictures. She's like, Oh no, I texted you that one time about Simon.

And I asked about his chemotherapy. And it's like, you know, when you're like. You know what I mean? Parsing out those little details, you're doing that because you don't have a leg to stand on. And she, and then, and then she took it to your, you know, this is, it comes back to what you're pointing out to him.

You're defaming my character. You're going out there. You're saying I'm a bad friend. You're saying I'm this, you're saying I'm that. And again, she's like on her high horse about it. Like such conviction. And meanwhile, I'm sitting there like. Tamra was [01:08:00] reacting in response to you drop, like ghosting her, ghosting her as a friend, which again, like that to me to drop someone the second they're fired from a show who has been there for you.

And I do believe that Tamra picked up the phone like every night and was there for That is the essence of using someone, of being manipulative. And then when Tamra has feelings about it, you're going to deny it. And then you're going to act like the victim because of how Tamra responds. So again, I'm just sort of laying that out as more evidence of kind of like how Shannon navigates.

But what I want to say is, Shannon never actually took responsibility for dropping her. And then if you remember what happened was Tamra did that thing that she does where she got drunk. And then she lashed out at Shannon. And I think Tamara is kind of very similar to Lisa Rinna in the sense of like rage and regret.

I think she felt so remorseful of how she lashed out. That's the moment where Tamara shifted into, Shannon, I'm so sorry. And I remember I was watching that last season being like, no, Tamara, don't do that. Like she hasn't [01:09:00] answered for what she did. Like, yes, you, like you lashed out at her, apologize for that, but stand your fucking ground.

But instead Tamara went right back into it. And I think to your point, Jenny, this is where part of it was probably the reality TV stuff of like coming back into the show. I'm sure she was very nervous about coming back into the show. She had a lot to live up to her place in the ensemble wasn't, secure yet. So I'm sure there was a part of her that wanted to like find her footing in the show. Uh, but either way, Shannon never answered. I kind of have this feeling now, when there was the DUI and Tamra sort of seeing what's happening, and then she's watching Shannon kind of like deflect full responsibility for it.

I just keep having this sense of like, you have unresolved feelings about how used you are. You felt by her and how I again, use and abuse, use and abuse. I have a feeling this is history for Tamra in terms of pattern of like feeling used by people and then sort of discarded. Um, and so that's anyways, this is my very long [01:10:00] way of saying at least part of what I felt going on of like, why she's going in so hard, um, is these unresolved feelings of like, you fucking did something to me that you've never taken responsibility for.

And I think the personal rage towards Shannon, but if I'm right, also the history. historical rage of all the fucking boundaries I crossed all the times I compromise myself. I think that's part of what we're seeing here. Yeah. She says Tamara says something about how she can be this way with her friends that she shows like if I like, I can't remember exactly her wording for it, but it was something like I'm just really harsh with my friends when I, when I know they like need to fix something.

, but that does feel like a historical thing. Like, I have to put up this because I did all of this before, right? Like, there's some, like, defense there of, like, I was so people pleasy before, and now there's a rupture, and so the way I repair it is with this, like, tough love situation.

But in fairness, I actually do really love [01:11:00] Tamara. We share a same birthday, and we're both weirdos. You've got similar energy to Tim. Yeah, and we do, because I very much am like, I see someone's mess, and I can call it out, and oftentimes I've learned that I have to bite my tongue on those things. I also very easily fall into an energy vampire.

Person where, you know, they want to spill all their problems and I want to fix them because I'm a Virgo and that's what we do is fix people and I think the anger that she's feeling about cross boundaries is always is also for herself because I think she's like, I know I shouldn't have picked up the phone.

I knew I should have set boundaries, but I, I let it all go to be a good friend and then I don't think personally and you all speak on this. Shannon is even capable of giving even 10, 20 percent of what Tamara gave to her because she can't handle anybody else's problems because she's constantly in fight or flight of her own problems.

[01:12:00] So Tamara expecting that from her was also, she realizes is unrealistic. And I think that's part of what she's mad about. I Feel like when Tamara gets like into her deepest rate because there's Tamra the potster who plays the producer of the show That's always easy to spot.

But I think Typically, I think when she gets really heated and charged it tends to be around this notion of when someone's not being sort of truthful to who they are. So like Gretchen's presenting one thing for the camera, but there's a whole sort of secret life going on behind the scenes. Same thing with Jen, , who I want to say, like, there is like a spirit of kindness.

She's emotionally intelligent, but I get what Tamra's saying. by, you know, kind of the story that Jen was presenting about like this innocent emotional affair that wasn't really an affair. And Jen kind of like Shannon has sort of what I experienced as like a learned helplessness that I think she gets a lot of mileage out of.

You know, I think The point that I'm making is I think that Tamara does have [01:13:00] this sort of, there's this sort of truth teller in her. And I think when she feels like she's not allowed to speak the truth or somehow there's, there's something about, she just can't wield her experience of the truth calmly and clearly and directly.

It's like, it's almost like if I were to articulate it, she feels like she has to push it down to be good or to be nice. But then that enrages her. And it sort of like, yeah, pokes this historical rage where she's had to be silent. And then it's like, I'm bringing the truth out. But like in this, like, I'm tearing the house down and I'm making all of you pay for my rage about this.

But it always really seems to be connected to this notion of like people who are. in their deepest truth or aren't in their reality or aren't sort of presenting the truth of who they are. Like it's intolerable for her on a certain level. Well, and I think that there is something about that, that truth teller that isn't actually telling the truth, [01:14:00] right?

Like there's something in like, I, even with the thing with Jen, like I'm going to come in and I need you to be honest about this relationship and like whatever was happening in that moment that it was like, well, you're upset about. And you're using this as a way to hold this person accountable without like being vulnerable, right?

And even with Shannon and the DUI, there's like this, you, I, the core of it, she's right. But what she's really angry about is not that Shannon got a DUI, right? Like she's angry about what you were saying. Like the, the. Rejection or the dismissal that happened when she got fired and the wound and the betrayal around that.

But she's not talking about that now. She's now like, Oh, now I have a real opportunity to like, use this to like feed that anger through. And then the vulnerability gets missed, right? Like where it is betrayal and it is something else. It's almost like if I kind of feel into Tamra, if I risk the real vulnerability of like, like, you know, going back to that sit down, they had where [01:15:00] Shannon wasn't taking responsibility for ghosting her.

It's like, it's almost like I experienced it as a powerlessness is if I have Tamra sit there and say, look, you ghosted me. This was devastating. I feel used. I want you to see and hear this. And then the person on the other side is like, I, I won't see and hear it. It's like it, I mean, there was already the initial wound of getting ghosted and using abuse, but this is like a deeper level of being used and abused.

And it's almost like, to your point, if she can fixate it on something else and get something else seen and heard, it's like, well, then maybe we can restore relationship and I don't have to feel, and maybe that is part of why she shifted so quickly. And I'm so sorry, Stan. And I'm so sorry, Stan. And because it's like, again, I think.

You know, as I was saying earlier, there is something in Tamra that wants to move towards repairing relationship, whether it's Vicky or Shannon. And I think, yeah, to the point that you just made, I imagine there's something deeply heartbroken there that she doesn't want to tolerate that there will be times in relationship where there's just the rupture.

[01:16:00] She won't be seen and heard the truth of her experience won't be acknowledged. And it's almost like, as I say that, yeah. I can almost feel this deep tenderness and Tamra's heart that she protects. You know what I mean? With this, what we see on the show, you know what I mean? Like all the bells and whistles.

Well, it's interesting that you feel the tenderness towards her and you feel differently towards Shannon. Cause I see parallels in that where it feels very similar. And yet I think what's harder about Shannon is that it feels like she's dug her heels so deeply into that victim mentality. And that it's hard to.

Feel any movement and any possibility of movement where with Tamra, it feels like there's more possibility. Well, yeah, and I agree with you. The I always feel such overlaps between them, and it's why they were friends and and also just. For transparency. Yeah, I've had shenanigans in my life, so like I'm like 100 percent clear on it.

Yes. So, um, but no, and I also think, you know, again, it's just also personality preference, [01:17:00] right? Like as human beings, we all have personalities and some personalities are going to be more drawn to other personalities. I. Personally, I'm drawn towards, you know, powerful people. I mean, we're all powerful, actually, fundamentally, but ownership, owner, people who take ownership of their power, want to create catalyzing change in their lives, you know what I mean?

That to me is just much more, I just find that more attractive than the, let me wallow in the, you know, like, uh, it almost reminds me a little bit of like the, You know, sort of Kristen Doty, like, you got to be miserable with me. Like stay in the swamp with me. I feel like Shannon wants people to stay in the swamp with her. , but going back to your point, Jenny, that like Shannon's capacity, it's like, I rarely, Experience her as genuinely holding space for other people. 

 I had a friend who was a Shannon where it was just constant drama. She needed so much help. And I remember there'd be times where she'd call me and I could feel she wanted to jump in right away, but she'd pause me like, [01:18:00] how are you? But like, I knew I was like, are you really asking me how I am?

Or are you doing this? Because like Shannon. You know how things look and sound. You're smart. You're emotionally intelligent. You know, you kind of got to ask me about me before we move on to you. And that's, I don't know, I just feel like that a lot with Shannon, but it kind of makes sense if we're onto something with her childhood, where it's almost like, you know, it's such an unforgiving term, like energy vampire.

It's so harsh, but let's just go with it. If she is an energy vampire, again, I'm just experiencing it possibly again, as like, I don't know. I have to draw in all this energy towards me because it's it's a survival tactic. Like, this is how I survive. This is how I get through the situation. This is how I get my needs met in my family system.

This is how I distract from what's going on. And so I will say actually, this conversation is really helpful because It is helping me to experience that experience of energy vampirism in a new way of like, Oh, I mean, I'm always saying there's always vulnerability underneath all our destructive [01:19:00] behaviors, but the energy vampire one can be tough, you know, for certain people anyways, for me.

And this is really helping me to understand like, Oh, like I really get how this can develop and how it really can be a coping mechanism and tactic for someone. Yeah, it makes me think of how hard it is for me to work with people who come in with very like victim type narratives because I think energy vampire and victim mentality kind of like, can be very like, They probably co occur quite often.

, and just how difficult it is to sit with someone who feels they have no ownership or control over their lives. And I know that's something that's very hard for me to sit with, with Shannon. And I am so extremely triggered by, and feel very worried for her and, and even more like for her children, because that scene when she's talking to them about the DUI, you just see like.

Parentified children and the difficulties that that may create for them later in life. And they seem really like, and those girls seem really smart and really like [01:20:00] level headed. And sometimes kids who seem older than they are, that's a trauma. No, I'm so glad you're saying that because I experienced that scene the same way.

And so that's an example. I saw so many people being like, Oh, that seems great. She was taking responsibility for DUI. And I'm just sitting there like, She was crying to her children about this. And by the way, this wasn't like cameras picked up two days later. So of course she's going to be emotional. This was like five months later, a planned scene to film.

Shannon could have found any fucking body to do that scene with. And the fact that it was her daughters, the fact that she was crying, the fact that they were like comforting her through it, um, That scene killed me and I always feel so bad for her daughters and especially in the rewatch that birthday scene where David takes her to the sports bar and she's pissed about it and coming up with every reason under the sun why it was the worst thing in the world and her daughters literally say like, Oh, I'm so tired.

Like something like, I'm like so tired of seeing you or like [01:21:00] teary eyed all the time, mom. And I was just like, Oh my, this is terrible. Like they were so young and already. so used to Shannon's emotions just being like the thing that rules the household. I relate to the victim mentality a lot. I think I've experienced that in my own family and I almost watch it and I'm like, I, it feels familiar to me. Um, so it almost doesn't trigger me because I'm like, Oh yeah, I was. I was the adult in the room during all of this. And as much as Shannon reminds you of your mom, Sam, she reminds me of my mom.

And it's more of a, Oh, . I know this I've been here before. So it's interesting how the same person can pick up on the same energy, but have a different feeling based on the trauma that it triggered in their own life too. 

Can we touch down on that scene with her father? Yeah. Cause I mean, again, that's another scene where like, when I poked around online, I saw so many people being like, Oh, what a great scene. He was so supportive. They have such a [01:22:00] great relationship. And I was just like, are we watching the same fucking show?

Cause like, I was just sitting there watch first watching this guy with this huge, well, I don't know if it actually was a huge glass of wine. I might be like imposing Shannon's description of their childhood. Like kind of my memory, this But my memory says it's a big glass of wine. Okay. Oh, that's a big glass of wine.

Dad. Oh, she does. Yeah. So I'm visualizing it as this like huge glass of wine in front of him. And it's like, I just, and especially if you contrast his energy with the energy of her mother in one of the earlier seasons, who's just so kind of like mild mannered and gentle. And, um, and Shannon even talked about how, when the news of the affair Fair broke out and her mother first saw David afterwards.

She like hugged him and said, I love you. There's sort of this like soft, gentle quality. And then her father, he's sitting there with that big glass of wine. I'm like, Oh, take, you know, John Jansen, the machine. Oh yeah. Gene, the machine. And I just like the whole time I was watching it, I just kept hearing the word denial, denial, denial.

Because again, it's [01:23:00] like, if it's, I mean, and I know they're on camera, but like that aside, if it's my daughter, you know, and she just got it. DUI and was in some sort. I don't know exactly know what she was in some sort of rehab ish place. I, I don't know, you know, I might be a bit concerned. I might have questions.

I mean, it was just the way that Shannon was like, well, dad, I'm just, I've been at a two drink maximum and like, everything's great. He's like, Oh, great. And you know, then he's supporting her to like take John Jansen to the cleaners. And you know, he's Gene the machine. And I just, um, I don't really know what I want to say about it other than I just, I, it's even before this conversation where I felt like the energy of denial has come in full force.

When I watched that scene, I literally heard the word denial being repeated over and over my mind. And I was just like, there's so much that's not, there's just so much that's being glossed over here. And so if we're looking again from a place of pattern, I just have to imagine. There was a lot being glossed [01:24:00] over, especially in context of this particular relationship.

Absolutely. And it feels like there's a lot in that scene where Shannon is saying things like, Oh, me and my dad are really similar, but I don't go to the same lengths. He goes like all these sort of insinuations, but I'm like, what does that mean?

What does that mean? Then she goes, we both have fun. Um, Is alcohol so bad? Like there's sort of like all these like insinuations of the way alcohol plays a role in, for her, for her dad, in their family and what it relates to about like being fun, that feels like narratives that are extremely unhealthy for people to have. . Well, it's interesting.

Cause I've always been very drawn to Shannon's relationship too. I mean, she literally calls herself fun Shannon. At times, or it's like vacation Shannon. And that's another thing where I can even say it. I'm like, like it just, and I know a lot, a lot of people in the audience love it. They're like, Shannon, we love fun Shannon.

And she speaks in Irish accents. Actually, like a guy that guys don't hate me for it. But a [01:25:00] moment where Tamra made me laugh early in the season, which is like, I'm sure Shannon will be showing up in a costume. And, you know, I laughed cause I was like, right. Cause that's Shannon's shtick. And there's something, it's like the way that I explain it.

Shannon, it's like, cause I, I think the thing is there is an aspect of Shannon and at, like I said, at some point I want to talk about what I experienced as Shannon's possible essence. I think that is genuinely fun. And I think that's part of her charm, but there's a way that she wields fun. Shannon. In the context of energy vampire, Shannon, that to me, well, first of all, it's still all about fucking Shannon.

It's like, why can't you just go on vacation and have a good time? Like, why does it have to be, Hey, everyone, look at me. I'm declaring I'm fun. Shannon's vacation. Shannon. It's like, okay, Shannon, once again, it's all about you. So great. Thank you for that. And you're dressing up in costume. We get to pay attention to you, but it's almost like the voice.

And maybe this is me just being totally unforgiving. I'll see how this lands with you guys. I just kind of hear this voice and Shannon, that's kind of like, see, I am fun. I know how to have fun. I'm not, I'm not [01:26:00] miserable, because again, . It's like the inverse of saying, I'm not, you know, I don't want to be a victim or I'm not negative.

It's like, see, I'm fun. Yeah. I'm fun. I know how to have fun. Oh, vacation. Shannon's here. Like I, again, like I know how to fun and it just sort of, it, it almost feels like another, another. Like trick in her bag of tricks of how she sort of keeps this whole thing going. Like, I know exactly like kind of like what I was talking about, how she came into the season knowing exactly what to do to clean it up.

It's like, I know the moments where I need to become fun Shannon and even like this last episode where she Oh God, you guys, I'm getting so unforgiving. But like when she saw that that restaurant had like a secret door to the back room and she immediately like doubled over and cackled in this really sort of like over the top way.

And again, I was just like, Shannon, stop. Like, you don't have to make such a show out of like having a good time and being the fun person. And oh my God, that's [01:27:00] so fun and funny and quirky. It just feels like it does. It just feels like another facet of like, A show she's putting on to somehow like get attention and to keep this whole thing going where she gets away with all of these tricks.

So, I don't know if that relates at all to your, I don't know, whatever experience you were having around the fun times. It does feel like there is this like part of her that feels like, I need to be fun. Because if I'm only these other things, right? Like, and again, unconsciously, if I'm only these other things, no one's going to like me.

No one's going to want to be around me. But if I have these moments where people are really drawn to, like, and I remember one of the seasons where Emily and Gina sort of started and were trying to have a relationship with her. They're like, everyone's saying Shannon's so fun. Like, we don't see that. And then they go on vacation and that's like where we kind of hear that like vacation Shannon, fun Shannon, and they're like, Oh, I guess we see it.

And it's sort of like, Oh, she feels like she has to bring this [01:28:00] out to yes, get attention, but also to gain favor for all the other stuff. , that's how she got in with Tamara and Vicky in the first place was that she was fun and Heather was a little bit of a wet blanket and then Heather was out.

So she's, and I mean, that's how she was sustains being on the show in general, I think is bringing that costume fun out. That's exactly the point I was going to make. It's interesting. Cause she did seem more fun that season. Like it wasn't Shannon dressing up in costumes.

It was just like, she had them over for dinner. She got drunk, like she was having fun. And it's almost like, I mean, I think this is the point you're making. It's almost like on the show, she's starting to commodify. Her fun even more and it's even more of like a shtick than it's ever been. And it's like, Oh, fun.

Shannon's this thing that I do, I think both for my personal relationships, but also for the show, but for, that's what I'm saying as Jamie, I'm like, this doesn't really, I don't really feel like this is fun. I just feel like this is another Shannon parlor trick. Right. And the connection that has to then like alcohol, right.

Because there's so [01:29:00] much of fun. Shannon has to do with like getting drunk. And what we know as alcohol is a depressant that then it leads to. right, a depressant in your nervous system and in your body. And then that contributes to this whole like cycle going through again of making drunk phone calls.

And so it's like, you can't have one without the other. And can she be fun Shannon without that alcohol? And that makes me think of like her relationship to not wanting to totally stop. Live a sober lifestyle is like, will I lose my ability to reach those fun parts of myself without it? I have a question to ask you guys I'm so curious about because something like so when I was doing the rewatch of those scenes And I think it was actually the doppelganger party last season before everything went to hell in a handbasket Something suddenly jumped out at me that I'd never experienced before and I'm so curious to hear your guys's take on it where I Um, before everything went to hell in a handbasket, Vicky was sitting there with Shannon and like pouring like a drink into like Shannon's [01:30:00] shot glass and like really encouraging her to drink, you know, typical Trace Amiga stuff.

And suddenly, and then I was just thinking about like Vicky this season and being the one who's like, you're allowed to drink if you want to. And it was the first, I've never experienced Vicky this way, but I was, it was the first time where I was like, Oh, does Vicky have an investment in enabling Shannon's drinking?

Like they've created this whole persona about the Trace Amigas and they whoop it up together and have fun together. And I've never really thought of Vicky as having an alcohol problem per se. I don't. But there was something about just seeing her pour that alcohol into Shannon's glass and then seeing how she's orienting this season with really making sure every, you know, Shannon knows she can drink if she wants to.

That, like I said, I just had this feeling First, like question pop into my mind of, yeah, does Vicky have an investment in enabling Shannon's drinking in some way? And I'm curious what you guys, I don't know, does that hit anything for you? It does for me. That's why I felt like Tamara was more mad that she couldn't openly drink [01:31:00] because she's like, we've, we, this is when we have the most fun is when we get wasted.

We fall into the hot tub when we do our shows. , I think the three of them have always, but I also take it in just as a, Regular female who goes on girls trips. And what do we all do? We drink and Let off steam. And I think for me, if I was be like, I I'm never going to drink again, I think that would even hurt my friendships because I think that's just a collective thing women do that, you know, we have stresses in our lives and then we drink our wine and joke around and it's something that bonds us together.

 I always thought that they. Both enabled, uh, Shannon, which I thought was interesting that Tamra has taken this different road this season and calling her an alcoholic because Tamra's last season she was drinking way too much.

Well, it definitely seems like Vicky has an investment in keeping the now dose amigas going. And it feels like part of that has to do with alcohol. And if Shannon [01:32:00] is completely sober, like, can that be a thing at all?

, and I think we see this across franchises is like where the authenticity of these friendships gets impacted by finance and by the show and by the demands of the show and how that impacts the way they're relating and the way they're like mutually benefiting from each other that's not authentic to like real friendships.

Yeah, for sure. And also, I mean, it's interesting just in terms of what Jenny was saying. Like, I, I also am really feeling it, though, just even in terms of their personal relationship, you know, just this notion of like, we have fun together. This is what fun looks like. And again, I mean, I, I don't know why I'm shocked because it's not like.

Well, Vicky's interesting because there are ways in which she can really show up as a good friend. But then, of course, there are ways where, you know, she can be a totally shallow friend and stab you in the back if she's your friend. Uh, but like, I am just suddenly experiencing this possible part of Vicky of like, [01:33:00] well, if we can't have fun in this way.

You know, what's, where's the friendship, you know, like where's the essentially, yeah. Where's the fun of the friendship. Well, and Vicky's kind of similar to Shannon in that way that like, She is kind of only fun when she's whooping it up or whatever that is and like getting drunk and going out because otherwise like Vicky can also be a little bit of an energy vampire in some ways like when I, like when I think I probably have the most like Ick feeling when I think about Vicky, like she's, she is one of the ones that makes me like, I know people like really love her and like, she's an ode to whatever, but like, I just get this feeling of like, this person is like not a safe person to be around.

Well, that's how she was on ultimate girls trip in Dorinda's house. She was a complete. Right. Saw her true energy vampire. There was, she likes. Ability to have fun and be present with the other girls because of what she was going through and her attempt to do it to [01:34:00] everyone. Yeah, it's so interesting. So I'm an OG Vicky fan.

Like, I like Vicky. Like, I feel like now a lot of people appreciate Vicky. what I always appreciated, which is basically just what she brought to the show and how compelling she was. And she gets her respect now, but I, I will claim I liked Vicky back when people would get like incensed if you said you liked Vicky.

But I will also say I I've had to hang up championing Vicky because she It turns out, it makes me so sad to even say this. She's blocked me. She's blocked me on social media. So I know, I don't even know what, I don't even know how she knows who I am. Well, okay. This is a whole sidebar.

I was going to say, I don't know how she knows who I am, which I don't. Don't know how she knows who I am, but the secret truth underneath that is we did DM for a little bit But like I didn't DM her as like a content creator. I just DM'd her as I just gave her a nice Little intuitive message when she broke up with Steve and I don't know what happened somewhere along [01:35:00] the way. Vicky has blocked me. That's like a rite of passage. Like me and Sam, when we get blocked, that's going to be a nice moment for us.

We're dying to get blocked by a person of honor. I feel like that's like a badge of honor. I think that's the only one I've been blocked by or that I know of. But it is kind of a quintessential Vicky experience. I feel like you haven't had a Vicky experience until Vicky has turned on you. Even as you've shown her love. Um, but what was I going to say?

Should we get into like some of the final questions? Oh, okay. Or is there any like final thoughts? Because I know you want to do, yeah, you want to talk about Shannon's essence and I think that's important. The only thing I want to point out is, you know, and this isn't excusing Tamara, of course, at all, but it is so interesting to me that There's this narrative now of Shannon's drinking being used as kind of like, uh, you know, a point against her and as a storyline.

It was very interesting to go back and re watch and to see how willing [01:36:00] Shannon was to do that to Kelly. And, uh, you know, there were a lot of knowing looks around Kelly ordering a drink. There was a lot of have another drink, Kelly. Again, speaking of this sort of potentially manipulative part of, uh, Shannon, there was this whole thing at the end where Kelly was making a conscious decision not to drink in Ireland so she would remain her own.

And Shannon went out of, like, kept pushing drinks on her, actually went up to the bartender and whispered, make it a double. So, you know, I'm not saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's not my point. But it's interesting to me, in the place where Shannon gets so outraged. about how unfairly people are treating her and has this narrative about how she's only ever loyal, honest, real, and trustworthy.

It's just interesting to go back and look and see, she had no problem implying on camera that Kelly had an alcohol problem. She had no problem. I mean, you know, I guess, depending on what you choose to believe, setting Kelly up to look like an [01:37:00] alcoholic. And I don't know, I just, I want to point that out because again, I think what's difficult for me.

I totally understand people having empathy for Shannon this season. And again, I do have empathy for Shannon this season. And I want to say, I really do have concern for her as a human being. Um, but I think what's hard for me in this place where things can get black or white or binary in the viewing audience, it's like, I see a lot of people just saying things like, Oh, poor Shannon and you know, she can just never catch a break and she just means so well and all this stuff.

And I'm just like, guys, the writing has been on the wall. It's been there for years. And she did actually really try to. , paint Kelly as an alcoholic, and by the way, I'm saying this as someone who did, does not want Kelly out on my TV, but she really, um, you know, she tried to paint her out as an alcoholic in a really intentional way.

Yeah, it feels more like that same behavior of like manipulation and deflection, right? Like, Shannon benefits from Kelly drinking and getting belligerent [01:38:00] and how that gives her an upper hand in some way, though, in that scene when she does like when the alcohol in Ireland with the alcohol and Kelly, it is more about Tamra and Kelly, if I remember that correctly, that they're like, really the ones going at it.

And it's interesting that it feels like in that moment, Shannon is inserting herself in that drama. Well, I was trying to remember because I rewatched that 70s party and then I was like, wait, why does Shannon dislike Kelly at this point? Because I know they get into it at the Japanese restaurant where I think Kelly calls her, uh, see you next Tuesday, but that's later.

And I was like, why was Shannon so bothered by her? The only thing I remember is when they first met, I guess, Kelly made some obnoxious jokes about like I'm getting MC hammered and you went to USC University of spoiled children and I was like, was that it? I mean was that the extent so it got me I mean, we don't to get into this now, but I know you mentioned prior Kind of competition with [01:39:00] Heather But it did get me thinking about like what was Shannon's initial issue with Kelly and was there competition there as like another Actual rich woman, you know, on the show.

. I think Shannon was playing by the Vicky playbook of like, anybody knew have a problem with them because she had a problem with Megan King when she came on too. So I think it, it became a thing definitely with Vicky, but then later with Shannon, where it was like any new girl had to pass their like test.

It, that's what it felt like to me. Yeah. And then Kelly came in hot and didn't try to like, Yeah flatter her in any way quite the opposite That was all it took for shannon to be like, I don't like this person And that's what I'm saying in the place where she, you know, potentially sets Kelly up at the 70s party in the place where she makes him click implications about alcohol.

It's like, that's where I'm like, there's actually a real edge to Shannon that can come out. I mean, something quite vindictive that she doesn't [01:40:00] I don't know that she's ever even really shown it in like a real way, like in a direct way. And so again, that's why I'm just like, yeah, of course, let's empathize for Shannon and what she's going through this season.

It seems like John is a huge a hole. Alexis is being relentless in her crusade. 100 percent kicking someone while they're down. But yeah, like Shannon is not just this sort of, she's not the innocent victim in her life, you know, like there, there are real edges. There's real vindictive anger. And I think there's a real relationship to manipulation for sure.

I think that producers did a good thing for the show to bring Alexis on, but I just, it was a disservice to Shannon because again, I think it affirms to her that, like, I benefit from being a victim, like, right? . I don't think producers could have predicted how things turned though.

They, they, they just thought it was going to be messy to have Lexi on Jesus Chugs. And that's all they were thinking. , if we're looking from like the deeper work [01:41:00] aspect of like, where can Shannon do work and still be on this show, like, this version of it, again, kind of like, creates a barrier for motivation to do deeper work because everyone is now like, yeah, team Shannon, she's great.

Like, look at how she's, look at how Victimized she is almost, , these other people are so terrible. That's what I'm saying, like, these narratives get written where she's, she's the victim and she is, I mean, that's how powerful she is. It's like, right, again, kind of like right when she might have to take responsibility for something, like in the form of this DUI.

Here comes Tamron Alexis, terrorizing her, making her a victim. And now she gets to live in this victim energy that she, that's what I'm saying. Go back to season nine. I mean, for me, not for you, Sam, it made her likable. Like this is what she does quite unconsciously, I think, but it's also a testament to how powerful she is as a manifestor because she just, In the places where it's conscious, in the places where it's unconscious, she knows how to [01:42:00] fucking keep this going.

And that's why I'm just like, if she were more directly tapped into her essence, which I can get into in a moment, God, I'm just like, I feel like she could be so powerful in terms of like, creating things that are actually constructive and actually fun. Actually fun, not like this weird commodified fun that reinforces her victimhood.

Yeah, I mean, just because we're already kind of touching on this, like, Is she good for reality TV? I think that she was good this season. I think the audience is behind her. She, she could have easily could have gone the other way where people were siding with Tamra and Lexi and they've chosen her side.

I think she'll be back on OC. I think she's got this dating show. I don't. You know, we can get into whether we think the dating show will be good for her, but I think Bravo sees her as a commodity and knows that her flirting with a bunch of guys will be fun, Shannon, hilarious, but I think that's what they're betting on.

 So are we addressing the question now is is she good for reality TV? Yeah, do you [01:43:00] think she's good for reality TV? , I think my answer is yes and no like I feel like initially she was I mean look I feel like she was the first kind of mid to late term housewife to come in and totally shake up an existing franchise.

, she was raw. She was real. She brought her vulnerability to the show. She shook up the cast dynamics. I think she was great for a moment. I think she's good now in terms of, again, like sort of the energy it's bringing to the show from a drama perspective. I stand by, I think her.

iron grip on refusing to move forward with Vicky for those few seasons. I think it killed OC and had them scrambling to try to like cast it and figure it out. And you know, now it's finally sort of come out of that slump. So, you know, I'm, I think I think yes and no, you know, I think there are times where it works and then I think there are times where she, she doubles down on her patterns and her rut.

And I also think there's a [01:44:00] bit of a Dorinda here where it's like when you have someone who's so emotionally dysregulated and so committed to the narratives they got going on at a certain point, you kind of seen what they have to offer. I mean, in some ways. I mean, again, Alexis is like the biggest favor she could have asked for because it's kind of giving new life and energy to an old pattern.

You know, we'll see how long that extends past this season. , I feel similar. I feel like it's, it's going to come in waves. Like she has moments that are really good and moments. That are not so good. And I think that as an audience, like we will be worn down by the energy vampire, by the victim mentality at some point, and that's not going to like serve her in a longer trajectory on the show.

Yeah. I mean, getting into is reality TV good for her? I don't think so. I think if she took. Time away and actually really worked on her real issues, which I think she should have done when she broke up [01:45:00] with David. And because of the show, she didn't do that. , would serve her better in life, but. I still want her on the show.

Yeah, I feel like I've been saying this throughout that like it just feels like the show is feeding into an unhealthy pattern for her that allows her to avoid deflect and distract from Anything real that's going on in her and I think It feels hard to see a situation where she's able to truly like do healing work while being on the show.

Yeah, I agree. I kind of feel like initially the show was good for her, you know, I think she needed to get out of that marriage. I mean, if nothing else, cause David clearly didn't want to be married to her. And I do feel like, look, I don't know if they would have stayed together had it not been for the show or not, but it does feel like the show catalyzed something.

And I think, you know, to the point that I was making earlier, I think the show has given her more ready access. In a direct way to those powerful catalyzing parts of her. So I think initially it kind of gave her like a [01:46:00] great bump in her life for someone who likes to stay in the swamp. It kind of bumped her out of something, but I, yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying, Sam.

I think at this point, given her kind of tendency towards high drama and avoiding herself and, you know, playing to the cat. camera of life, I think the show kind of reinforces all that and keeps her stuck in kind of a whirlwind of drama where she doesn't really have to look at herself in a deeper way.

Jamie, what is your take on the dating show? Well, just when you had a strong reaction. No, I know. Cause I, I like when you were talking about how she's going to be flirting with men, I totally agree with you and I can see it.

And yeah, I was rolling my eyes. Cause it's like, like I said, this is the part of Shannon. I just can't deal with it. Like I can just already see that she's going to be playing to the camera. I was like, fuck. Who's going out on a date and I know what she's going to do. She's going to play into that whole insecure thing and she's going to talk about wearing Spanx and she's going to trip and fall and like, like she just does this thing.

I mean, [01:47:00] again, and I'm not trying to be mean. Like I look if you love cookie Shannon more power to you. It's just for me. I don't I just feel so. I feel so cultivated and if I, you know what it is, it's like, I think I can feel the energetic price. We all pay for it. That on the other side of that is the disempowered Shannon.

And I would just so much rather see empowered Shannon going out on dates in an empowered way. You know what I mean? Like owning herself. Anyways, this is a whole other thing, but yeah, so I, I don't know if, cause it's her and Luanne, it would be fun to see. Is it Giselle? Giselle and Ashley. Oh, I do kind of want to see Ashley.

I'd watch for Ashley. I'd watch for Ashley and Luann. Giselle and Shannon. I don't really need to see. I mean, it's interesting because Ashley is a totally different age range as the other women as well. So they only going to have older men. Well, that is her type. No. Yeah, it's true. Well, and Ashley [01:48:00] is also like, I mean, I know she's sort of stuck in this weird, uh, no man's land with Michael right now, but I feel like she's willing to actually like Flirt and have fun and have sex and make romantic connections.

And obviously we know Luann's like a man eater. I just feel like Giselle and Shannon both, they just do something weird. It's performative, you know? And, and I feel like it will just, it'll just be for TV. That's just what I feel like. Right. I can see there being some authentic like flirtation and interest in Ashley or Luann where the other, yeah, it feels very performative and it doesn't, I don't know, it gives me the ick a little.

Um, I mean, any final thoughts? Is there a third question? The third question I think is, what do you think is the essence of Shannon?

I just, you know, I mean, it's interesting cause I was, you know, as I was sort of In this rewatch, you know, it's, it's interesting. Like I just feel the word I hear is like trickster, you know, and I think I even use it at [01:49:00] one time and it's like, it almost reminds me a little bit of like, you know, maybe the puck archetype from Midsummer Night's Dream.

You know how he's like a playful trickster who causes a little bit of mayhem and, you know, yeah, it causes some drama, but it's like from the higher side. And it's fun and it's mischievous and it stirs shit up. It's like, and that, that's the thing. Like, cause you know, I talk about how I think even our most destructive impulses carry the seeds or the wisdom of like what we might call our essence or our higher self.

And it's like, when I see how good Shannon is. The manipulation and the way she can like set things up. You know what I mean? To like keep the narrative going. I'm just like, Oh, it just feels like there's such a trickster in you. And like, again, because I do think she is actually fun in her essence. Like I see her.

It's like when I visualize her, , you know, I just see her almost like in this Joker's outfit, but it's like really shiny and it's got sequins and there is a, it feels like there is a performative aspect or [01:50:00] like there's someone in her who likes to perform. And like I said, it just feels, it feels mischievous.

It actually, the word I'm hearing too, . It's like, it's provocative. She knows how to sort of poke people and like fun ways that can sort of stir shit up. And I'm saying that because You know, as we've evidenced right here, like, you know, Sam and I get a little triggered by her.

She can be provocative to the people around her. Like we, you know, season nine, Tamara and Heather were provoked. David was provoked. Alexis and John are provoked. She's, there's something provocative about her, but I think there's a way that could be flipped. where she could wield it really consciously as this playful, uh, like I said, sort of provocative trickster who pokes at people, has fun all the time, not just on vacation and sort of invites people into something kind of like fun and magic.

I mean, I'm smiling as I say this, like fun and magical again, for the sake of the highest good though, not for like, Let me, like, get my, inner child needs met in a really kind of [01:51:00] unconscious, distorted, vampiric way. What is surprising to me about Shannon is whenever she gets in this dysregulated state, especially with the ladies, she'll try to just walk away and oftentimes you'll see Emily chasing after her, Heather chasing after her, you know, when she was like, you'll all see, Tamara's like physically grabbing her and there is something very provocative about her where people feel that they need to coddle her or like physically, you know, You know, settle her down.

Um, so I think you're right that she does wield a lot of power over other people that she's not conscious of. Well, no, it's like either or. It's like they're either terrorizing her or coddling her. You know, and I feel like that's what I'm saying.

It's like, those are the two pieces of the puzzle. It's like she gets terrorized, which then makes her the victim, which then makes people want to coddle her, you know, and then the people who coddle her, I mean, and again, this is their fault. I mean, they betray their boundaries.

They say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then they become the tormentors because there's a certain point down the line where they feel. feel so fucking [01:52:00] used, stepped on, and outraged. And, you know, and I think part of that, again, they are responsible for their own behavior. So this is not a free pass for John to do whatever he's doing or for Tamara and Alexis do whatever they're doing, but I understand and I've experienced, as I think we all have, when someone disowns their own power.

You know, but they're a powerful person and then they keep playing the victim. But even while they're doing shit, that is like, they are not the victim. , it's almost like the energy start, like the energy they won't own for themselves. starts to move through the people around them, where people just start getting so fucking furious.

I mean, again, it's kind of part of what we're seeing with Tamara, where it's just like enough is enough, you know, like enough is a fucking enough. Again, it doesn't justify Tamara's behavior, but I kind of, I like, I kind of get it in a certain way. It's, it's interesting to hear like how much power everyone [01:53:00] experiences from Shannon and like what, like what I'm hearing from what you were saying before is like what she could do if she knew how to use that power for like good.

Oh my God. I think she's so powerful. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I mean, if you look at what she manifests over and over, it's like, Unconsciously, semi consciously, consciously. She knows how to keep this narrative going. So yeah, if she wielded it directly with intentionality from an integrated place where she's not trying to get these young needs met, I just, I do.

I think the sky's the limit for her. I think she, I, I, I keep, I do. I keep seeing her as a performer and I keep, you know, it's funny. I get this impulse a lot for my clients. Not as much with Housewives, but I feel like a writer in her. I like see Shannon, like writing really fun, kooky plays, you know what I mean?

She's already doing that, right? Like she writes narratives. She writes like stories of like what she thinks is happening. If she could foster that into something more real and grounded, I like the word integrated because it does feel like that's a big part of it. Like how does [01:54:00] she not get rid of these parts of her, but how does she integrate them in a way that makes her feel whole and not like she's got the little girl screaming on the stairs or whatever that is of somebody like that inner child working as opposed to like Her embodying her adult self and her woman power.

Like she came on to this show and the show offered her a piece for herself. So she wasn't just like the housewife to David, she was able to leave. And then it's almost like she didn't know what to do with that. And it like, Turned into her following in the same pattern and getting with John and yeah I think that's the concern about this like dating show is like where does that lead into her then following into the pattern with a new man and a new Codependence or counterdependence or whatever you want to call that that happens for her that allows her to stay stuck

Yeah. And that's why, and I do want to say like, cause you know, I know she has a lot of fans and a lot of supporters. And I want to say like, I think part of, I imagine why people, a lot of people lovers, because there is, [01:55:00] there are those seeds of that essence in her. Like, and I want to acknowledge that Shannon, you know, yes, absolutely.

I get it. Like she's charming. You do feel her heart. There's absolutely love in her heart. She loves her daughter. She loves her family. She's also got that like homemaker in her that loves her family. to cook. Um, you know, I just want to acknowledge like, of course, there are these other aspects of her and she is a three dimensional human being.

But I do, I think there's something very magical inside of her. And I think there is something genuinely fun inside of her. I think there is a mischief maker in her. I think she is a trickster. And yeah, I think all of that is evident. in ways. Um, and I have to imagine that's part of what a lot of people are picking up on and it's why they do respond to her.

And so I just want to acknowledge that just so that it's not like a, it doesn't feel like I'm just piling on to Shannon and all episode.

Yeah. I think a big part of like this for us and what we like about what you do, Jamie, is that what we see, or at least what I see when I'm looking at all these like different Bravo accounts or podcasts, that a [01:56:00] lot of it kind of feeds into the binaryism that can happen in this of like, who's good, who's bad, whose team are we on?

Who's safe? Who's right, who's wrong, and I think it's really important that we, like, take that step back and look at, like, a bigger perspective and not judge or be in this place of saying what is right and what's wrong. Well, because these are, you know, I mean, I feel like these are the myths of our time, you know, and storytelling is part of the fabric of humanity.

I agree. It's been around forever, and we don't have sacred storytelling anymore, but we do have reality TV. And like I said, it's obviously tapped into something, you know, I mean, it's here for a reason. , I just think.

Organic conflict in life will always generate interesting drama and television. And so I know sometimes people say things like, well, well, someone working on themselves and actually healing and actually getting sober doesn't necessarily make for great TV. And I'm just like, I don't agree with that. Like, like we wouldn't have had the last season of summer house of Carl hadn't gotten sober.

Like that all came from his sobriety, you know? [01:57:00] And I just think life, you know, when we work on ourselves, I mean, life's always happening. Conflict's always gonna. Not that like Teresa is a good example for like evolving self actualization, but like even just her changing life has brought in, you know, new conflicts and stories.

And so I just think when we're supported to change and evolve, You know, like, let's just say Jax Taylor, you know, had got really healthy, you know what I mean, before his breakdown. How would that have affected his relationship with Brittany? You know, how would that have affected his friendships? You know what I mean?

It's like, there's always going to be conflict. And the difference is it's going to be new conflict, which to me is more exciting, you know what I mean, than just seeing the Same old thing play out over and over and over. So I think there is room and space in reality TV to support like people's growth, like their transformation, their real stories.

I'm sure you've heard me say my podcast, like my dream, I would love like there to be a show, like, I don't [01:58:00] know, like a, a one off little mini show where it's like a five day workshop after a reunion where a cast, like just getting to work with the whole cast after a reunion and really go deep into the issues and, but like.

To support like their deeper healing and their deeper truth, you know, cause then relationships are going to change, okay, well, I'm going to pitch it to Bravo. Oh my god, Bravo would never air it. MTV could pick it up. I was going to say Paramount Plus maybe. I think we benefit from seeing people's Healing journeys and seeing people grow because I do think we get, or at least for me, I get fatigued when I see people playing out the same problems over and over again, which I think is why Jersey is having such a problem because there isn't enough growth that we're very fatigued by this.

And I feel like this really relates to especially like the ending of Vanderpump Rules, where like, people wanted the same dynamic [01:59:00] that they had the first couple of seasons to play out. And I don't know, I felt really empowered by seeing Ariana's boundaries. I felt really empowered by seeing Katie's boundaries, like, I felt it was interesting to see how they're trying to hold boundaries in situations as they evolve and grow and mature and go through different stages of life

which I think they just need to go back to the organic, I, you know, storytelling, we have a thing we keep saying, I'm like, if it didn't, if it didn't happen on camera, it didn't happen. It's heartening to hear you say that since, you know, you, you do, you work in reality TV and it's just like, even some of the stories I hear from some of these people about, you know, the ways in which things will get a little produced.

And it's just, when I hear it, it just kills me because I'm just like, these producers don't seem to have any trust or faith in just letting life happen, you know, and letting these, in this case, these women, depending on the show, these women, these women, these men, uh, You know, let them live their lives and, you know, certainly if I were producing a show, it would just be supporting them.

Yeah. Like what's your deepest truth? How do you feel? Okay. Bring that [02:00:00] out. You know what I mean? And, um, I just wish there were more trust and faith. 

Wishful thinking. I know. Any last words as we wrap up? No, I think we covered it, right? Okay. Yeah, I feel like we covered a lot more than I thought we could. Oh, good.

So we thank Shannon Bedore for putting it all out there, wishing Shannon the best and wishing her a gentle energy flow and support for owning her powerful energy and, uh, her willingness to surrender old disempowering. Stories thank you, Jamie, for doing this with us. We really appreciate you taking the time and it's just so interesting to listen to you and now to get to talk to you. Oh, it was my dream come true. Dream come true.

Like I said, I, I really enjoyed the episodes I've heard of your podcast. And, uh, you know, I'm going to release this on my feed and I'll probably have already said this, [02:01:00] but yeah, I really encourage people to go check out cause you guys have like a whole little back catalog now. And like I said, I definitely get my own hits like listening to you guys.

So, , Yeah, keep doing what you're doing thanks. Thanks for everyone listening.