Breaking Down The Real Housewives of Dubai

Get ready for a deep dive into the glamorous world of Real Housewives of Dubai! This hidden gem of the Bravo-verse serves up luxury, former reality stars, and drama that’s as fierce as the city itself. We’re breaking down the epic conflicts and relationships through the lens of attachment theory, revealing the psychological layers behind all the high-stakes feuds. Plus, who’s the true Queen Bee of Dubai? Let’s find out!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, our unhinged friends. I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York city. We're best friends and Bravo super fans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged. And on camera.

Jenny: Hi everyone, welcome back.

 I hope everyone really enjoyed our episode on Tamra Judge from Real Housewives of O. C 

Sam: It was really interesting to see, the interaction with Tamra, Sophia, and then Katie and her daughter. And they're talking about, their experience of separation and divorce within family and difficult parenting dynamics. And Tamra goes to Sophia and you don't want to have children, right?

And Sophia goes on this rant about how like you shouldn't have children if you don't want them [00:01:00] and you shouldn't have them just because you think it's going to help the marriage. And it's interesting because we, that was something I had said during our Tamara episode was, at the, you had mentioned that Tamara had said

Jenny: She had Sophia, like she already knew the marriage with Simon wasn't gonna work when she got pregnant with Sophia.

Sam: And my concern about her saying that on camera and making that very public was how Sophia could internalize this feeling that she was had to try to save or fix the marriage, even though that wasn't like how it was being said. How children internalize things is not how they're being said. It's more around like feeling and embodied experience.

And to me, it confirmed this way that Sophia maybe internalized this feeling like, oh, I was had to fix the and it didn't. And it actually made things worse.

Jenny: And then Tamra, we cut to an interview with Tamra and she talks about how Simon was a bad husband and a bad

Sam: bad father.

Jenny: Yeah, the bad husband, 

Sam: Fine. Fine.

Jenny: that's your own experience, but [00:02:00] the bad father was Like why do you especially when she did that whole erased thing and she's so upset about being erased from her daughter's life her eldest daughter's life, like, why do you have to continue these low blows just move on you're married happily, your kids are all adults I don't know, it reminds

Sam: And you have to let your kids make their own judgment of their parents because if you're feeding judgments and if you're talking bad about your co parent or the other parent in the dynamic, then you, it makes you look like the bad guy because then it makes it look like you're trying to convince your kids to either idealize you and demonize your partner and it feeds into what's already occurring between them, which is pick a side.

Jenny: Yeah, and the fact that it was an interview versus just a scene because I think Katie has a really interesting story this season too and I'm interested in the reunion, how she's gonna, reflect back on putting it all on TV because her, some of her kids live with her ex husband,

Sam: It's a very similar [00:03:00] dynamic almost.

Jenny: yeah, and so the scene was really interesting but at the same point like the fact that she did an interview just felt more pre, like she had time to think about it as opposed to an off the cuff moment in a scene so yeah we should maybe do like a whole OC recap, which is what we're going to get into today because this season of OC has been amazing, but we really wanted to do an episode of all about Real Housewives of Dubai. It's a show we love. A show that's not getting a lot of attention, especially in fan circles.

It's new. Aside from Caroline Stanbury that was on Ladies of London, all these women are new to us and we're just getting to know them, getting to know this place. 

Sam: It's so interesting. And anyone who's sleeping on it, you're making a huge mistake. And if you're upset that it doesn't have the same level of drama as something like Beverly Hills or OC or Summer House or like the insane things that are happening on Vanderpump Rules if that is all you're looking for, you're [00:04:00] missing out because there's so much interesting dynamics that are playing out here, not only between the women, but this, the dynamic of it being shot in Dubai and that being a part of An interesting place that like, I don't know, I know nothing about.

And so in learning so much about a different culture, I'm learning about what it means to be like an expat somewhere, which I think is really interesting. And I really love that in girlfriends of Paris too, which I'm still want to come back and we'll maybe always advocate on this for it to come back.

Yeah, and just clearly even like hearing like conceptions we have of, what I understand to be like more of an Islamic place and how that, plays out for a lot of these women are not Islamic and living lives there and seeing that diversity The diversity of the cast, right?

We have a cast of one, one white woman, some Arab women and some Black women living in this very specific place. And that's just really interesting.

Jenny: Yeah, and I think keep in mind for the fans too Scandal Ball was a big deal because [00:05:00] we were following Tom and Ariana's relationship for, their whole relationship for 10 years. 

. I think in ten years from now we could be very invested in this show. We're in a building stage. 

Sam: Already invested. And we will not speak badly about Carolyn Stanbury. We will explore some of her attachment traumas and her behaviors. But she is forever my queen.

Jenny: yeah, so if you are not vibing Caroline Stanbury,

Sam: Maybe just turn it off now. Turn it off now. Okay.

Jenny: I was gonna say send in some feedback because we might be biased.

Sam: If you are pro Lisa and anti Stanberry you may want to switch the dial for today.

Jenny: I feel like we try to hold space for everything. But yeah, I'd love to hear somebody else's perspective because I thought she had, I think both her seasons have been stellar, but I think this season has been particularly stellar. So I'd be really curious for someone who's not into her to explain.

Sam: We get intro'd to the show. With each woman talking about their experience of coming into Dubai in that first episode [00:06:00] of the show.

And they talk about how Dubai is, I think they said 70 percent expats. So it's like the majority of the population there is people who are not from there. And I think that's interesting, right? It creates a melting pot of people. And that's what we have on this cast is this like real melting pot of people from different places, different experiences.

And they're all trying to interact with each other and it's really fun.

 Dubai is in United Arab Emirates and in the Middle East. It's a good example of what's happening in the Middle East right now as far as a lot of these Cities that are pre built and pre imagined and becoming like financial centers as well as expats are going there.

Jenny: I think Saudi Arabia I know during the World Cup that was also a lot of cities were built up just for the World Cup So it's a really emerging economy and place and I think it's very unique and [00:07:00] especially they go through a lot on the show of the different rules in Dubai and how those rules affect Arab women very differently than expats and I think that's really interesting and even just going grocery shopping and yeah, it's it shows a modern Middle East where it's if you want to be able to live here comfortably, there's You know, so many ways to do that, but there are different rules and laws, and this is how we navigate them, and I think that is interesting.

I also really love that Sara is Arab, because I think they need someone in the cast that's actually from Dubai. It would be interesting to maybe get another woman on the show that is from there, but I am liking the lens of basically having, American women living in a foreign country, I think it's just really interesting and I relate to it and for an American audience, it makes sense.

So yeah, we were thinking we're going to go through all the women and just give some overview and get into thoughts and perspective. The show has been, I [00:08:00] think, in the works for years because Caroline Stanbury was on Ladies of London.

. And then her husband moved to Dubai for work and I think they always wanted, I know Andy had said over the years, like he always wanted to do a Dubai with Caroline Stanbury but when we opened with her on Dubai, she's divorced her husband and now married.

This hot young footballer, Sergio, or she's getting married to him. They're like engaged in that

Sam: That's the storyline of the first season is Carolyn Stamberry's wedding and the different events that lead up to it. Yeah, so she's from Ladies of London, she moved to Dubai, she says, Six years after they moved there, they divorced and separated. And we actually find out this season, Yasmeen, her daughter comes in and shares that Sergio moved in like a month, was it like a month after the divorce, after they separated?

And,

Jenny: That was shocking. That was shocking to me. I do not feel like she described that timeline [00:09:00] right on that first season. But yeah, I applaud her for putting that out there this season because it was a revelation, I feel like.

Sam: Yeah, I do feel like her level of vulnerability and the things she's willing to share with us feels like it's going up and up as she moves through the seasons and I feel like on Ladies of London, she was so controlled and she had this fun side and she had this very like proper English lady side and but we didn't really get to know her on a deeper personal level.

I guess we got to see her business fail and she was really open about that and what that was like, but we didn't get the vulnerability that we're seeing now with what's happening with her as a person, what's happening around her boarding school trauma with her children we're just really getting a lot of vulnerability and a lot of The deeper stuff that's happening with her.

Jenny: I almost feel like sometimes I'm seeing a whole different

 On Ladies of London, she was the, proper English woman who would correct all the American women. And now in Dubai, it's she is [00:10:00] wearing her over the top designer duds, flying in and out of Bali, an influencer married to this young guy.

She puts it all out there. It's like night and day almost, but it's the same person and I like that you see the same qualities, but she's changed and evolved so much and she's like willing to do that. 

Sam: It's almost being out of England seems to have freed her, right? Freed her of some of the confines of proper society, family expectations. And again I think a lot of that boarding school trauma that she carries that we hear about, especially throughout this season. And she even talks about it a lot, like, how it's made it very hard for her to, open up and trust People in general, but I think we see it like with the women on the show, like that cold exterior you can feel from her, I think is so much connected to The attachment wounds that come from a boarding school experience.

 I think Yasmine was great this season. I think her being on the [00:11:00] show. I think her sharing a lot of what she was struggling with Sergio, especially there's a scene where they go out to dinner and talk about it. There's also a scene at a party where Yasmeen talking down to Sergio.

Jenny: And the dynamic between them is almost like this brother sister quality because he's so young and she's an she's a young adult now and going to college. 

But So Yasmin shares her struggles with Sergio, and I think Caroline did a really good job of listening to her also taking accountability for some of her parts, like moving Sergio in so quickly, and she explains it was pandemic, and there was other reasons for that, but obviously it wasn't a good transition, and then And then it seems like towards the end of the season that they both acknowledge there's been improvement with Sergio off camera.

So I thought that was really interesting. And then they talk about her wanting to have a baby with Sergio. And Yasmeen is I don't think you should have a baby just because of somebody else. And Caroline agrees. And it really shows the maturity on Yasmeen, too. It was almost like [00:12:00] a different dynamic than the Sofia conversation, right?

So yeah, I really liked that storyline. And Yeah. And then she met with a, was it a hypnotist or was it a therapist?

Sam: hypnotherapist.

Jenny: Okay. So yeah, she has a podcast too. And she has this new business that's all about, healing and working on yourself. And I see someone who has worked on themselves a lot, 

Sam: Yeah. I'm wanting to go back to what you were saying about her conversations with Yasmeen before we get into the hypnotherapist. And what I think is really interesting about those conversations is Sergio is used as like This, and we use the word scapegoat a lot because I think people do create scapegoats in order to try to talk about something deeper wounds in ways that feel easier because it feels like Yasmeen is I don't like the way Sergio treats me.

I don't like that you moved him in. And I think underlying that it feels like what Yasmeen is trying to say is I've always felt a little abandoned by you, and I felt this disconnect [00:13:00] from you, and that you prioritize other things other than me, and Sergio is one of those things. And I feel like Caroline takes that so well.

 We've seen housewives have these conversations where they're being called out on a behavior, and their first defense is to defend. And what I really appreciated was Stanberry really just Sat and listened and took it in, and took accountability, and yes, she did say it was.

Sam: It was COVID and this is why it happened. But it felt like she was taking some level of accountability and allowing her daughter to have voice, allowing her to validate it. And that felt really powerful so I really appreciate that she's showing us that and letting us see that and letting us see the complicated nature of relationships and parenting.

So now if we go into like the hypnotherapist, we, I feel like this is where we start to unpack some of that boarding school trauma, right? Like she In the session with the hypnotherapist, she talks about I don't remember all the exact language, but she talks about [00:14:00] her mom leaving her at boarding school, her not wanting to be there, crying, wanting to come home, and her mom just like ignoring her parents or family, just ignoring her calls and leaving her there, and her having to learn from a very young age to take care of herself.

Her mom wasn't emotionally open, there wasn't a whole lot of affection. There's a scene in the first season with her parents, they come for the engagement party. And she talks about how Sergio is the opposite of her parents, that they're not demonstrative, they're not affectionate, and Sergio is the opposite, right?

He is like a deedy little puppy. And I think that's something that, it both icks her out and gives her anger. a strong sense of safety and security.

Jenny: I'd be curious if her ex husband was more like her parents and

Sam: yes, he was. She does talk about that, that he was not very affectionate, that he was not very loving, I think Sergio is younger and it's interesting the baby of it all because she talks about [00:15:00] wanting to have this baby for Sergio so that he'll stay, so that he'll stay.

And then in that season one reunion, all the women are just like, Sergio will never leave you. Like he loves you so much. Or maybe it was this recent one. I can't remember. Cause I've rewatched some of them at the same time. So it's all mushed together, 

Jenny: she was saying that they had a conversation on this boat this season that she asked Sergio, is it a deal breaker? Will it be the end of our marriage? And he said, yes. And then on the reunion, she said, Sergio didn't know what deal breaker meant because he's from Spain.

He says his first language is Spanish, so he just didn't know what the term meant. And then he was like no, I don't mean that. I thought that was really funny, by the way.

Sam: And we do get this sense that Sergio is obsessed with her, right? That he is so deeply in love with her. And that she loves him back, but it feels like he loves her. And I guess that's just what we're seeing. I don't, we don't know what's paying out behind the scenes, but what we see is this man who's clearly way more in love with this woman than she is with him.

Not to [00:16:00] say she's not in love with him, but the equity doesn't feel exactly balanced

Jenny: I think that's a little exter like what you're seeing externally 

Sam: I think it's very rooted in her attachment style. I think she is a very, she has a very insecure avoidant attachment style, which is someone who is going to keep people at an arm's distance because they're afraid of abandonment. And so she's not someone who is going to let people in or let people know how she feels because that's going to keep her safe and make her feel like she has the upper hand if someone does hurt her.

And so I, that feels like it plays out both with Sergio and with all the women where she has to be in this place of I'm going to keep you just this far away and I'm not going to let you see or. No, if you if your behavior bothers me or hurts me or makes me or touch my wound, because if I do, then I'm giving you power and it makes me feel powerless.

And so it feels like she does that to [00:17:00] all the women and they're taking it As she thinks she's better than them, but I don't think that's where it's coming from. I don't think that she thinks she's better than anyone. I think she feels very protective of her wounds and her vulnerability and very deeply wants to make sure no one feels like they have the power to hurt her.

And I think that is so rooted in that boarding school. I was looking up this thing called the boarding school syndrome, which is basically When kids are put in boarding school, they can end up with disorganized attachment and this like insecure avoidant attachment because of the way boarding school can be structured in a very like militant and non emotional way that it doesn't make room to be an emotional person.

And if you are emotional, you get punished.

Jenny: I read Prince Harry's biography, which was really interesting. There was some clips online, and I was like, no, I want to see the whole story, and I actually think, And the royal [00:18:00] family definitely has the same boarding school syndrome because a lot of his emotional struggles seem very rooted in the same thing that we're talking about here, which is just interesting.

But yeah, I think with the other women, something about her attachment style to makes them want to earn her love almost more. It feels like she's almost, they don't like that she's the star of the show, but for some reason, every episode they keep putting her at the center and everyone keeps revolving around her.

And it's she doesn't, she's not even trying to be in the circle. She doesn't even want to be in the circle at all.

Sam: I don't even think she cares to be the queen of the show.

Jenny: It doesn't seem like it, to me.

Sam: I want to go back a little bit more to the baby gate of it all 

Jenny: one thing I wanna go back to the hypnotherapy thing or before we get into the next

Sam: I'm sure it's all interconnected.

Jenny: Yeah. So on the hypnotherapy part Sergio is listening in on the session and something the

Sam: Which is true, from a therapist's perspective, that is truly problematic, like they should, I wish [00:19:00] they would have all talked about making sure this was private because it does feel like her processing in that moment should not have been for Sergio, and it's only proved because Sergio misinterprets the whole thing.

Jenny: Oh, yeah, I totally agree. I think maybe because they were filming, it was like, oh, he's going to watch it on TV anyways, and maybe it's better he sees it now, and it was better for story, but he got, so they get into this mothering thing that Caroline brings up that she feels like she's in a mother position sometimes with Sergio, and then Which I want to, I want you to break all this down because it's fascinating.

But also we see, and they tease this on social media all the time, that Sergio is like very attached to his mother, like big, mama's boy energy. And the fact that she's taking this role is like fascinating. And then obviously he listens to it, flips out and is totally triggered by it.

And it's interesting that Caroline is saying that. to not be in that role, but I'm curious is he doing the processing to not put her in that [00:20:00] role either?

Sam: right? It's not just Carolyn that's doing it, it's co-created between them. I think ser, I think, and I think it's what brought them together, right? Like I think Sergio is such a mama's boy and does seem like someone who struggles to like. With his independence and with Navi almost navigating the world on his own.

Not in a full extent. 'cause clearly he's an adult and he navigated enough to like the point that he got to, to Stan Barry. But it does feel like he was looking for a partner who is gonna take control and dominate because that's not his personality. And it feels like for her, she was looking like she is a very like.

Top energy, right? She does have that assertive, dominant energy, and I think her prior relationship, she didn't feel like she could embody that, and then she almost overcorrected and found someone who was going to let her do it tenfold in a way That it becomes unhealthy, and so that feels like that's what's playing out, this co creation of I need [00:21:00] someone to dominate me, I want to dominate, but then it turns into this like parent child dynamic that like is very unsexy, like who wants to fuck their son?

Sergio's sexy, but 

Jenny: Back to the Oedipus. Why does it always go back to Oedipus on the show?

Sam: is very Oedipal, right? Like it is that, that there is this like parent child. And I think that's what frustrates her about it is she's already older. So there's already that dynamic of being so much older.

And then she's also like playing the role of mother. And I imagined that to her core while she likes to be able to be dominant, like she doesn't like to feel like his mother. And I think there's another layer of her trying to. Repair her own parent child relationship with her parents and her parent child relationship with her children where she can have more of an emotional attachment and not just be, like, and not be this cold, unemotional relationship where one person is dominating the other.

And it feels like she's trying to get to that with [00:22:00] Sergio, where it's I don't want to be this cold drill sergeant. I want to be, like, on this deeper emotional relationship with him. And I think, probably even bigger, she wants to have that with more people in her life. Especially, we see it with Yasmeen.

She's really trying to see that. And I think in that hypnotherapy session the reason she even did it is because she doesn't want to be that person. She doesn't want that to be the relationship dynamic. It's not sexy. It's not fun. And it doesn't feel good.

Jenny: Something you brought up with the Yasmeen stuff is you know They're talking about the superficial arguments with Sergio and that's the top layer, right? And the deeper layer is that she brought him in and didn't really choose her kids over him and she feels abandoned by that And I think she did a good job of addressing both and with the Sergio thing It's like they're Arguing about bills and like she's trying to pay the bills and he's trying to put her purses away and that's Just the core argument that they got into and then she's no there's deeper stuff going on that I need to work on and it's this dynamic and that's something that I [00:23:00] think is great to show You don't just other people in marriages, Sometimes some of your arguments seem petty, but they actually are about deep stuff 

but yeah it's something that we see play out on housewives all the time is, these wives who are maybe in their first marriages and they go in their second marriages, and they're trying to find that equal relationship.

Sam: They've now found their sense of self and they want they fear losing that. And so they, it almost like they go for a man who they know they can have a little more power over.

Jenny: Yeah, and it's like with Tamara, she left Simon to be with Eddie and they seem to have a more equal relationship , and then we talked about Heather and Terry that when she came in, she didn't feel that equal relationship and actually they worked on their marriage and now they're more in that equal place, especially these more recent seasons you

Sam: Mhm.

Jenny: So I think that they will get there, but yeah, let's get into the baby issue \ .

Sam: it's very much connected to this. Because I think she does not want a baby. I think everyone can say I don't think she wants a baby. And I [00:24:00] hear so deeply that she wants to be able to, she doesn't want to feel, to hold the guilt or shame of Sergio not having the experience of having that because she doesn't want to.

Jenny: It's funny you say this because she is very direct. She basically puts it out there. She doesn't want to have a baby. But I actually believe the psychic in Bali and I think she is going to have a baby and I think it is going to be the son that they have on ice. And I think they'll have it with a surrogate and I think it'll be probably in two of the three years. I,

Sam: that. I think,

Jenny: but I don't know why I feel that way. I just feel like maybe just the psychic threw it over the line for me 

Sam: the thing that comes up for me is it feels like in when we do hear people a lot of the Bravo World fandom world coming at Stanberry and even the girls on the cast coming at her in a judgmental way for wanting to have a baby for Sergio. I think they're missing this deeper part.

Of like [00:25:00] attachment that happens for her of, I want the security. And if I don't give him this thing, then one, I may not have security to, I will be, I'll have to carry something negative about having taken something away from him or not. I'm responsible for not allowing him to have that. But then even deeper, like back to that, boarding school trauma, I was reading this really interesting research thing that says that kids who went to boarding school have a difficult time with attachment with their own children.

And so when she's saying I'll have the baby and give it to Sergio, there's probably a part of her that would be okay with that because she already knows with her own children that like that attachment and that connection is hard for her to form. 

Jenny: And doesn't she talk about how her nanny has raised 

Sam: Yes.

Jenny: her kids talked about that too? Yeah.

Sam: she's really acknowledged that she had a hard time with, and she didn't use the word attachment, but she's had a hard time connecting with her children on a real emotional level because she was never connected with as a child on an [00:26:00] emotional level. And so for her she's probably I pump out a baby.

This baby is going to get so much love because Sergio is the most loving person. This baby doesn't need me because it's going to have Sergio. And Sergio's got enough love for ten parents, which does feel true. I do think Sergio would be a great dad. He Gives, even though he doesn't have that dominance in the relationship and seems like a childlike role in the relationship, I think that he is someone who loves and attaches and always wants to make sure the person that he loves is taken care of.

Jenny: And I think too, I see her having a kid with him because I think she's almost living a second life. I think her first life was like the traditional road her parents wanted her to go on, that she was expected to go on. And now living in Dubai, she's living her real, like the life she genuinely wants.

She's just, I don't think she would get married and immediately have a kid.

I think she like, she's in her 20s again. Like she's, she looks like she's in her 20s again. She looks amazing. And she wants to live a second life. Yeah, [00:27:00] she wants to live a second life and, she doesn't want to rush into having another baby. Why don't they be married for a couple of years? And I think now that her carrying the baby's off the table, I could see like in a year or two when they have this hotel built and what other projects they're working on.

She could be like, okay, I'm settled in this marriage. I'm ready to have another child. I don't know. We'll see. 

Sam: I don't know. I come from another place where I feel like she is repairing her attachment with her other children right now, and she is living her own life and doing her own healing journey. Helen, I want to, every time I think of healing, I want to say it like Whitney from Salt Lake City, but I feel like she's doing this journey and part of it is, Feeling truly independent and I don't know, I feel like it might be more empowering for her to just acknowledge I I'm not gonna be a mom to an infant that's not gonna make sense for who I am as a person, and I just want to accept that and embrace that, and Sergio, if that's something you want she keeps saying this thing we're only gonna last five 

to 10 years and like he'll [00:28:00] only be in his 30s or early 40s and then and he can go still have babies then and she's right like maybe that would be okay if they're together another 10 years they enjoy life together she gets to live this life. thing and then he can go and find someone else.

I I feel like it would be a real problem for her. It would be a problem for her children. It would create a lot of rupture around the repairs that she's been doing. I think it would create a cycle where she feels like she has to go back into her shell and bring the nannies back in. And I feel like it would just be so much more empowering for her to have a real conversation with Sergio of Being with me maybe means you don't get to have children, or we can make some kind of deal or whatever, where in a couple years, you go have children with somebody else I don't, I read Esther Perel's The State of Affairs or, Mating and Captivity.

Monogamy is not the only way. There are so many other ways to like, live life and relationships that I feel like it, It would [00:29:00] do her a huge disservice to just do this for Sergio. I get where it's coming from and the attachment parts of it for her and where that maybe does feel like something she could do, but I think it would create, it wouldn't be good for her in the general sense of this person she's building in this journey that she's on of repairing different things for herself and her children 

Jenny: From a producing reality TV perspective I am still really interested in the storyline because she is very direct and she's very open and honest with it. Something that I It reminds me of the Craig and Paige, whether she's going to move to Charleston thing, where I'm like, so over that conversation.

I can't continue to hear it. And Craig keeps dancing around. I'm going to break up with her, but then the next episode he's going to propose. It's I feel like neither of them are being honest with that whole conversation in the same way that I feel like. Sergio and Caroline are being honest I'm interested to see it play out more like I, I'm not sick of it even though it's been a huge topic for [00:30:00] two seasons, 

Sam: I want to bring in holding this attachment framework, just for you and I and for our audience to hold on to that idea of it is very hard for her to get close and that she often wants to push away and move away and have this cold exterior. And what we've seen, what I feel like I've seen from her a little bit this season is this ability to apologize and take accountability and sometimes the struggle of the other women to see that as authentic because she does have a little bit of a wall, like Externally, even though I think internally she like means it and we see that with Chanel this season and we can get into it but I just want to hold that framework because I'm going to like probably bring it in some more.

Jenny: , I think the best scene that demonstrates that is when they're in Bali and they're going to the waterfall and Caroline is hungover. She's puking in the back of the car and they get to this waterfall and she's I don't want to go into this waterfall. She just doesn't want to. She's hungover.

Leave the girl [00:31:00] alone. Who hasn't been on a bachelorette? I've been the girl in the bachelorette who's puking . I don't want anyone to bother me. I'm here for the ride and doing the best I can. That's all I can

Sam: showing up and it's still not enough for these women. They're like,

Jenny: and for Chanel's particularly because then afterwards when they get back she's Caroline specifically does these things to separate herself and she doesn't like that.

Chanel seems to take that very personally. She's she doesn't want to be part of the group and it's no, Caroline was hung over and just didn't want to go in the waterfall.

I don't know why

Sam: And a similar thing happened in the first season where Lisa, they all go on the ski trip with Phaedra when she comes and Lisa gets them all like matching ski outfits and Carolyn's I came in my own clothes. I'm going to wear my own clothes. I'm not going to do it. And they're all just like, why can't you just do this with us?

And she's I don't want to. I'm 50. I'm almost 50 years old. If I don't want to wear that outfit, I'm not going to wear it. And they're all taking it so cool. Personally, in a way that like, okay, yeah, like she could just wear the outfit and be part of the fun. But if she doesn't want to, like, why is this like, [00:32:00] something that becomes so much deeper than it actually is?

And they all start seeing her as doing something to portray that she's above them. Which again, I think she's just doing like this thing of I want to protect myself in some way. I want to like, keep some peace within myself. I imagine she sees herself as the older, white woman of the group and there's something she just wants to feel in control of in that.

Jenny: but also like her own boundaries. Like I almost it reminds me of the scene in Salt Lake City where Lisa Barlow didn't want to do the drag thing. And then she just becomes so dysregulated and like freaks out. If Caroline was in that situation, she would have just been like, I'm not doing it.

I don't care. I'll be a judge. I'll still be part of it. I just don't want to do it. And it would have been that simple. When we

Sam: I love that. I love that you're framing it as boundary. It's I think you're absolutely right about that. I think there's something, she's just this is my boundary and I'm holding it. And I think on reality TV She is more of the veteran here and maybe feels more empowered to hold her boundaries because of that.

And the other women are [00:33:00] clearly reacting to that in a way that feels like, Oh, she thinks she's above us. And it's y'all can hold your boundaries too. If you don't want to wear the outfit, don't wear the outfit. If you don't want to do this, if you don't want to go in the, like Lisa during that same was it during the same mountain spring?

She like wouldn't do something. Cause she's it's not like Christian. I can't remember exactly the dynamic. And. She held that boundary for herself. Why is it not equal?

Jenny: wonder if a part of it is about the show

Too, because when you look at a scene with Lisa Barlow with drag The fact that she flipped out and became a whole thing was, a dramatic scene.

And, like, when Caroline Stanbury holds her boundaries in a very strong way and she's just I'm not doing that. It's not a great scene. And I think it might also bother them that she does that in a controlled way. It's fine. And yet she's still a fan favorite or,

Sam: So I want to challenge that idea that it's not a good scene, because I think that's coming from like a patriarchal male perspective, that like women dysregulated [00:34:00] is like a better scene than a woman holding her I enjoyed watching her hold her boundaries. And I enjoyed her, seeing other people's discomfort with it and her still holding it.

I think that as women, that's empowering for us to see women who can hold boundaries and stay in that place. And that's just as interesting as someone dysregulated. It is a different type of interesting, but it's still interesting. 

 I'm going back to Freud and his ideas of hysteria and women and this is how women get defined by being hysterical and that we've now reality has taken on that Freudian perspective and been, like, here, look at all the hysterical women and that's when they're most interesting.

And yeah, I feel like I Just for myself want to like challenge that idea that those are the like, I still want to see those scenes. Don't get me wrong. But I want to see other scenes, too. I want there to feel like there is this bigger space for the Caroline Standerace for the Ariana's for the Katie Maloney is like for these [00:35:00] people who do hold strong boundaries.

And then we have to see how they navigate the interpersonal relationships around that.

Jenny: Yeah. I think for fans, for like women who watch a show, I think sometimes like when they see women behave that way or go over the top or are hysteric, so many times like, as women we're holding down our emotions or, holding onto resentment and then it explodes, especially, and we'll get into this with Caroline Brooks, like when you're drinking and you have that excuse.

And

Sam: And Lisa, Lisa, she

Lisa Milan. I on Milan.

Jenny: and. Chanel ion is like over the top with her emotion. So I think because we live in such a world that is like gaslighting us or telling us our emotions are wrong,

and I think on reality TV that we're attracted to it because we're constantly being told to be quieter and smaller. And then when we see these women acting out, it's like cathartic for us.

Sam: And I think you're right. If we're, if the shows are only women holding boundaries and internalizing there, that won't be interesting. But I think it's good to have a balance of these [00:36:00] things. And for us to see all the different ways that as women, and especially women in friendships and relationships, how, like, where there's space to express your emotions, healthy, unhealthy, like, How to navigate rupture and repair processes like Lisa Barlow, dysregulating over her drag and, having to have that conversation.

I think it was with like Meredith about it and move through those things. But yeah, I just want to hold space that like, also boundaries are interesting and helpful 

Jenny: so Chanel

Sam: Yeah, let's move on to Chanel. Chanel is so interesting.

Jenny: yeah, Chanel, I think on the reunion this season Stanbury and Chanel talk about how they had almost similar attachment wounds. Even though they, she grew up upper class, British.

aristocracy and Chanel grew up in a

Sam: Different classes, but similar, I think, emotional experiences of Chanel talks about her [00:37:00] father being extremely abusive she had 30 siblings, I think she only grew up with 10, and then she had sort of 10 others in two different Through her dad on one side, and then I can't remember the other, I can't remember the whole breakdown, but she says 30.

And if you, even if her mom is the most caring and emotionally open, like when you have 10 children that you have to be caring and emotional to, like it, it's impossible to spread that in a way that's going to be effective.

Jenny: Yeah, and I think first season she came in really hot and sometimes she turned me off because I felt like she was trying really hard to be like the housewife. And I think this season I felt like she was trying a little bit less hard.

Like it didn't feel like she was, wanted to be the center of attention as much. I think she just was a little bit more comfortable being herself and I actually liked her a

Sam: how you see that from like a production standpoint because when I experienced her coming in and knowing she has all these siblings like I [00:38:00] see this like younger child coming in and being like look at me pay attention to me and I it makes me wonder that like she created this high fashion persona as a way to get attention that she like wasn't able to get when she was younger and then she comes into this dynamic with the women on the show and she's clearly she must have seen Housewives before had some understanding of the stakes of it and how you have to create story and vie for camera time.

And she almost took that to a degree because she didn't know how like her metronome of like how to take that in and hold space like clearly and you see her this year she balances it right like the first year she's like Blah! And then this year it feels like she's Oh, okay, I don't need to do all that.

I can take it back a notch, but still be like this, get attention through my fashion the way I always have without it being as catty. And then I think there is a dynamic with Lisa that Lisa has Ayaan do a [00:39:00] lot of her bidding.

 To highlight Lisa in a good light and make her look like the calm star.

And then Chanel looks like she's, what are you doing? You're doing too much.

Jenny: , . I want to get into her dynamic with Lisa, but before we get into that, I want to give a quick acknowledgement to her sharing her story about female circumcision, because I was devastated that she came in this season feeling like that was something she had come in too hot about or

Sarah said she was using as a victim.

I think that was, really hard for her to share. I think it was really important for her to share and I think it was not spotlighted as, as much as it should have been because of so many other housewives factors. So I want to just give her flowers for doing that.

Sam: And not only that, but she also educated us all on the different types of female genital mutilation that it's not just one because I think, when we hear that we assume something and so I really appreciate her like breaking that down into the different subsets of what that can look like and feeling empowered around her [00:40:00] like sexuality despite that.

And. I think what's really important about Ayaan that came from that is she internalized that as I am not a victim and so when other people say she is acting like a victim in some sort of way, which I disagree with, I really don't think she takes on a victim mentality at all. I do think similar to it.

Stanberry, she has this wall, and so if she doesn't feel you're a safe or trusting person, she assumes everything you're bringing at her is negative or an attack, and her, I think it's like totally a fight, flight, freeze, fawn it's totally that reaction that she has, because in that first season, there's like Something with Stanberry where they're talking about business and Stanberry is actually saying something nice about Ayaan.

And Ayaan's attacking her like, you're saying something bad about me. And Stanberry's no, I'm not. You're not listening. And then she does a similar thing with Sara, which is, I think, at the reunion, why Sara says you're acting like a victim. And it's no, she's not acting like a victim.

She's coming from a place of [00:41:00] fear. This is someone who's been through extreme trauma, both like within her family and then experiencing at first, five years old, this female genital mutilation, like at five, she was like taken by her aunt and brought to a man. And I was happy to hear that her aunt now like does work to bring awareness to this and has tried to like, almost repair this damage she's caused.

But I also appreciate an eye on holding that I'm happy she does that and I still feel a lot of anger at this woman for what she did to me and holding that duality because I feel like that's not held enough in these shows that we can feel multiple ways about things. But yeah, I just really agree with you.

I think it was really important for her to share that. It was really powerful. It was really risky for her to share that.

Jenny: The victim thing comes up in this reunion this season where Lisa calls her a victim and she obviously lose their mind. And then also this idea of loyalty 

and it was really interesting how Lisa can say [00:42:00] Just the right words to really send her over, 

Sam: so they came in first season as each other's best friends. And that they were going to hold a loyalty to each other. And I do think the first season, Lisa really shows up with that when Aion is going through her stuff with Stanberry. I think it benefits Lisa to stand up for her in that moment because I think, we can get into this more with Lisa, that Lisa is in a dick measuring competition with Aion.

Stanberry, that Stanberry's not actually in with her but she shows up and is like defending her friend, like their friendship is really solidified as like girlhood that season. And then we start to see the cracks in it this season because Ion and Stanberry, after the reunion were on a plane ride, this is their story, and they like, work through some of their bullshit and forge some sort of connection.

And then coming into the season, we're seeing them work on repairing and building a relationship, which then pulls Ion away from Lisa. It feels like Ion being pulled a little bit away from Lisa is allowing her to [00:43:00] have her own relationships with the women and her own identity with the women that isn't wrapped up in this like loyalty dynamic.

And it's ma it seems like it's making ion look at that relationship with Lisa of wait, what? Is that actually a good, healthy relationship? Is if she's starting to see cracks in it, like there's things there that don't feel good, lisa getting upset with me for not asking Rihanna to wear her her maternity line.

There's things there that I wouldn't do. It feels like she's owning this place of I wouldn't do that to her. Why is she doing it to me? And then it all comes to a head at that final party, which I love their tampon commercial. I thought it was amazing. There's a silly video that they made that looked like a

Jenny: Oh my gosh. I was like, tampon commercial.

Sam: And meanwhile, Lisa is like, steething in the corner and this whole like, I'm not jealous. I'm not jealous. And I'm jealous. I'm jealous. I'm just admit it. It is hard to see your good friend connect with someone that you're not, that you're having problems with. Just [00:44:00] acknowledge that.

But we see this final scene where Ayan goes to Lisa and she's I've been talking to the other women about how they all think I'm different around you than when they're with me separately. And I feel badly about that. I don't want them to see that.

I want them to know that I want to be an authentic friend. And Lisa gets so upset. She's like, how dare you talk about this on camera? We made an agreement off camera that you wouldn't. And you're going to make, I think she says something like, you're going to make me look like a bad friend. And again, we can talk about all that with Lisa, but in that moment, like Ayaan is just no, I really want to just have these authentic relationships and you see this like part of her that is now like.

feeling the weight of that relationship that relationship with Lisa like carried for her. She thought she was like safe and good there. And she's like seeing that she wasn't. And I think that's why even going back, and I think I'm saying all a whole lot, maybe I'm doing too many timelines all at once, but you can break it down.

But back in was it Bali that they went to where the [00:45:00] voice recording came out.

Jenny: Yeah, wait, before we get into that, yeah, because we are jumping timelines and I want to do a

Sam: So yeah, I'm going like, first season, second season, there's so much and it's so rich and

Jenny: there's so much. But in that final scene, the producers did a really good job of making a little package of Chanel's inner workings, which you really needed because the arguments are so petty and hard to follow about the voice note, about the bragging comment, and her inner workings was basically like, I am starting to see that she's really controlling I don't even remember all the examples but I feel like as soon as they played that I was like oh I've been around women like that who are very much because I can be very loud and funny and gregarious or whatever and I've been around women who was like oh don't say that or you're being too much and it's it was a little bit you Triggering to me where I was like, Oh my God,

if I acknowledge that as a friend and I saw that in another, I wouldn't hang out with that person anymore because that is very damaging, especially for someone like Chanel, who [00:46:00] is very over the top. And , that's her personality

Sam: It feels like Lisa wanted to dull Ayaan's sparkle for her own benefit.

Jenny: And we see that with the Rihanna thing. Don't talk to Rihanna about your makeup line, talk about my maternity line. And then, the fact that she brought that up in the reunion as an example of why she felt that Ayaan was not, Chanel Ayaan was not being her friend 

Sam: that didn't hit. It didn't work

Jenny: I was like, wow, girl, you don't even see what she's saying which is I have this connection with Rihanna and I need it for my own things and now you're just trying to steal my like also Lisa you're on Real Housewives of Dubai if you want to reach out to she obviously watches it just reach out to Rihanna yourself like why does she need to do it on your behalf it was really weird to me

Sam: I want to go to Bali when they had so they exposed this voicemail.

What I feel like it was to me, the voicemail was a big like nothing burger, like who cares? And Lisa gets really upset And says she feels betrayed by Aion, and [00:47:00] then Aion has this really big reaction, right? She gets, she starts screaming, she gets upset, she goes into her room, she's really angry.

Lisa tries to come in and do some sort of repair with her, because I think Lisa realizes that she's made a big mistake here by getting really upset about this, because now she's lost the one person on this cast who is loyal and will do her bidding. And

Jenny: calls her husband. She even calls Chanel's husband.

Sam: That's crazy. That's crazy. Yes, that is to show the level of control that she wants to have over this woman. She's calling her husband, being like, trying

Jenny: Get your wife under control? What was the point of that phone call?

Sam: in that moment, why Ayan was having, my intuition tells me why she was having such a reaction, was that was the first moment where she realized Oh, Lisa isn't my ride or die. Lisa isn't a safe person. She's not the safe, secure person I thought she was. And then from that moment, we just see the like breakdown of their relationship step by step. And she may have been [00:48:00] feeling it like before that, but I think that moment really solidified whatever she might have been starting to feel about that relationship where it was like, Oh gosh, like this person wants me to be in a box that I can't be in.

And she escaped her childhood and all of that and only to find herself almost like replaying some dynamic of being controlled and having these expectations in this friendship. And I think in that moment she realized I can't do that anymore.

And throughout the rest of the season we see her like free herself of it up into the finale where she's Oh my God. I'm done. I'm done. You're not gonna do this to me anymore.

Jenny: Yeah, and I think Sarah, who's the only one who should have been mad about this voice note, didn't even care. So the fact that then

Sam: She's basically, and it wasn't even being, it wasn't even said because basically what she was saying was like, I don't like Taline.

Jenny: And she clarified that and was done and didn't even care. She was like, I'd rather you not share my voice notes, but okay, [00:49:00] like moving on. We are all on a TV show. I don't know. It

Sam: Anything we say could be, come to the show. There's no contract we have with each other that if you share something private about me on the show

Jenny: and I think Caroline Stanbury did a really good job of just being like, I'm sorry and genuine apologize. She genuinely apologized to everyone involved, even Lisa, who accepted her apology, but then still is in this dick swinging contest with her it was confusing to me. But, should we get into Lisa's background?

Because I think that

Sam: definitely my final thoughts are on Ayaan are I really love her. I love her vulnerability. I love her fashion. I love her personality. I love her talking head moments. They're not even talking heads because of her fashion. She gets always whole it always feels like she

Jenny: Multiple heads with the lions.

Sam: Or she, it always feels like you get to see her whole body because they're honoring her fashion, which I love.

And I'm really excited to see more of her in this new place. I, do I think maybe there could be some repair between her and Lisa and [00:50:00] a new relationship? I would hope so, but I also want her to feel her sparkle and work through her own healing journeys outside of that relationship. I think that would be really good for her.

Jenny: Yeah. So on Lisa, something I was surprised to learn about mostly because it took me a while to learn about this, was that Lisa was actually already on a reality show. She was on a BET show, College Hill, South Beach. College Hill is a very famous BET show. And she was on a spinoff, which was centered in Miami.

And it's a very different show. I, and I almost made me. Think like Caroline Stanbury came into to buy Housewives as already this big fan favorite from Bravo. And I feel like Lisa Milan is a fan favorite in, shade Room circles, BET like this other, genre of reality tv.

And I'm sure it didn't make her feel good that like she is a star, but not with the Bravo audience per se. Because even me learning that she was on that show.

Sam: Because what I was, when you told me she was on that show, [00:51:00] I did a little digging, and what I was hearing was, like, People like, one, no one on her cast liked her. She had a few bite moments that were good, but that she actually wasn't like, a big breakout star from it. And it feels like she Maybe since then has been like, or even before then, I guess we could go back to her being like, in pageants, because I think that's something really interesting about her.

But looking for this moment where she gets to be like the breakout star, and I think in that show what it seemed like was she was often like, dysregulated and attacking. And now we're, she's like coming on to this show older, more mature and containing and figuring out a way to be the star without being dysregulated.

Now we do see dysregulated moments from her we can talk more about the scene at the golf. Where she attacks Talene and Brooks but it does feel like she came to the show with this idea of I'm now gonna be the star that I never got to be.

Jenny: I feel like she was a fan favorite. I think on [00:52:00] those shows, it's a little bit of a different dynamic, where it's like, if everyone hates you on their cast, and then you stand up for yourself, and hold your own. Because I was seeing in some circles some of the Taglines are things she said in the middle of arguments really became, a big deal I mean it just depends on it, I saw in some post that was like Oh, she's from College Hill and I was like wait, she's from College Hill.

I didn't even know that

Sam: heard of this show, so

Jenny: Oh, really? Yeah, no, it's now they do like a celebrity edition. So they had Ray J on and like Amber Rose. So it's a

Sam: I saw that NeNe was on one of them, was that true?

Jenny: Yeah, probably on the celebrity edition. So it's, again, it's very because I've worked on both that, like Bravo is definitely a certain fandom.

And then, College Hill, BUT, VH1 they have a totally different universe. I describe it as like the Marvel and the DC universe almost. And so she's like in the DC universe and she crossed over to the Marvel universe and now like the Marvel people are like, who are you? And she's no, I'm [00:53:00] really famous in the DC universe.

And she's also dated like, celebrities,

Sam: She's beautiful. Lisa Milan is gorgeous. She is. I like I'm stunned by how beautiful she is. She's really like a gorgeous person. And she has a background in pageants, right? She was crowned Miss Jamaica in 2010. And I find this to almost be more important than her being in another reality show because I think what pageant life does is it like reinforces those gender roles.

It reinforces competition between women, right? Like this competitive nature and stepping on. But even more it also, even though I think pageants are trying to like have this bigger inclusivity and diversity in them, I think there's still like this valuing of beauty standards, especially like white, blonde right?

Like what are like the traditional beauty standards? And it, to me, that speaks a little to maybe what's happening between her and Stanbury, [00:54:00] especially what Stanbury emulates both as having this history and being this veteran reality star, right? That's already probably a trigger one.

And then her also being, like, white and blonde and symbolizing something she probably came, was dealing with in pageant worlds quite often. 

Jenny: So yeah, and I feel like for her too, I just see that she's very struggling with the fact that it seems like Caroline Stanbury gets a lot of things very easily to her, and I think she has to work so hard for everything she has, whether it's the pageant, whether it's her business, whether it's being on the show, whether it's, crossing over from the DC universe.

There's something about that she looks at Carolina Stanbury and thinks everything's easy for her and it's hard for her and that, I think that also makes her over, overcompensate. And I actually, the whole thing with the bragging argument, I don't think Caroline Stanbury said that, but if she didn't, it wouldn't be [00:55:00] unwarranted because she was bragging.

She was like, I have my house in Miami, now I'm building this farm and we're gonna have a full staff. It was like, if I was sitting across from that woman, I'd be like, yeah, she was really bragging.

So it was surprising that set her off. Yeah. And the business thing is really interesting because she's constantly being like, I'm the only one with a business.

business and trying to justify that and all the other women are like, nobody else is trying to make this competition happen. Like why are you trying to make this

Sam: I'm glad you used the word overcompensation because it does feel like, with Lisa, I, first of all, I have this really hard time with her because I feel like I don't know her. I feel like I know this mask that she wants me to know, but I don't know her soul. Where the other women, I feel like they're letting me in a little to like their soul and who they are, their vulnerabilities, their, even their masks too, like you see, but you get to see all those aspects where with Lisa, I feel like we only see what she wants us to see and she wants to be portrayed in a very particular light and she [00:56:00] overcompensates a lot in order To have that be how people see her and how she identifies in the world.

And then the moments that we see her get dysregulated is when women are calling her out that you're actually not what you're portraying, like with Brooks and Talene saying, like, why didn't you ask me? That's shitty and her response is then to attack them in ways that feel truly problematic, right?

Calling them bitches and just names that feel at the core things women shouldn't call each other because it's just icky. And even with Ayaan saying you said You were like, this idea that someone would say you're bragging like that goes against who she thinks she's showing people.

And so she gets dysregulated and reactive. And so she feels like this tightly wound thing that's, contained until everything gets too full and explodes. 

Jenny: Yeah, that's why I bring up that I was, it was illuminating to me that she'd been on reality TV before because out of all the women on [00:57:00] this show, she feels like very much the operator. Like I think she is, she's aware of production. She's aware of how she

Sam: How she's being seen. 

Jenny: Controlling.

I think in general, she's. I do think she's probably a very successful businesswoman, type A personality, so she's approaching the show from that lens of I'm gonna be, I'm gonna appear this way. And then she really uses Chanel Ayaan to, to do her bidding in that way and they are working together. And I think very much, like with the voice note, I think that was the thing that was getting lost and confused in the reunion and I almost didn't really care that much, but I think people see that Lisa is an operator and some of the voice note thing was an operator and how much did she play a part because Chanel said I'm going to show this voice note in Bali and shared it with everyone prior.

She already had shared it with Stanberry and Taline on camera prior to Bali so it was just really confusing 

Sam: even in that moment with Chanel at the finale, where she is you don't say that on camera, you're going to [00:58:00] make me look like a bad friend. She's so worried about her image and how she's being perceived. Operator is probably the best word that I feel towards her.

It's it does feel like I'm looking at someone who's trying to control how I see them. And that makes it very hard for me to connect with you. And it's interesting because she's Jamaican and .

I work with a lot of people in the community who come from different Caribbean places, whether that's Jamaica or other Afro Caribbean identities. And a big part of that culture is strength. You have to show your strength and you're not allowed to be emotionally vulnerable.

You have to be successful, you have to be educated, like there's certain things that get valued really highly and it feels like she, she talks a little, I don't think she does on the show, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw like a BravoCon interview where she talks about her mom being really critical of her and constantly [00:59:00] picking at what she's doing wrong and Just, It's interesting to hear that, and I wish we knew more about that experience for her.

'cause it feels like she just then does that, right? Then we see her picking on people, telling them what they're doing wrong. They're not classy. You hear her say that a couple times? That's not classy. That's not this. There. I wanna know her soul and I feel like I have a really hard time knowing her soul.

Jenny: Yeah, which is interesting because Caroline Brooks is her family's from Honduras and she's also part Jamaican and she gets into that. It's almost the same storyline. So it would have been great for them to relate on that level and talk about it, but obviously we like never see that. One thing on the business thing too her husband that first season is in a few scenes about her business and he's almost doesn't seem to be taking her business very seriously.

And it was interesting to see how dismissive he was and then how she pushes that so much on the ladies. And it's like, how, [01:00:00] it must be hard for her at home, like dealing with that.

And then, having to, because it didn't feel like the women were really other than in that reunion after she came for Stanbury all season that Stanbury said anything about her business. And it was one thing that, It just seems like she's misdirecting maybe an energy with someone who's actually, CFO of your business and your husband onto people who like don't really care that much about your business and are just your friends

Sam: Again, any time she feels vulnerable, there is this I have to come in hot. I have to come in and protect that in a way that feels extremely defensive to me as an audience watching her. I'm like, there's one moment that I feel, I guess I want to bring in, because I feel like it was really important, where she confronts Stanbury on making what I think is the lowest of if I'm going to be critical of Stanbury, wrong.

She says something about Lisa being an escort back in Miami

Jenny: Oh yeah.

Sam: that [01:01:00] Danbury, we know you can do better. And Lisa talks about how that affected her feeling safe in the community and feeling like people are looking at her in a certain way when she drops off her kids. And that felt like a moment of vulnerability that I really appreciated where it's okay, someone said something mean, you're valid in your feelings, and you're showing us the vulnerability of what it feels like to be a black woman in a community where there isn't a lot of black women.

And the biases people can hold about black women and that if there is this narrative out there that you could have been an escort that people will make really negative assumptions and treat you differently. And so I really appreciated that moment of vulnerability. So I do want to give her flowers for

Jenny: Yeah, and also come, first season, I was like, the person I care to see the least of was Lisa, to be honest. But then this season, I think the breakdown of her relationship with Chanel obviously solidified [01:02:00] her coming back next season. And I would be interested to see that dynamic play out.

Yeah.

Sam: without Chanel and so it feels like maybe we can break down some of that exterior and that wall that she builds up to protect from this idea of like weakness or vulnerability and that it is okay to not be the star to not be like, I want to see her I want to, I, we see her as a mom and that's nice.

But. There's something just feels like we're missing about her and that's why I didn't want to see much of her this season either and I'm having a hard time talking about her. I feel like I'm having a hard time like formulating my thoughts about her because I just feel this disconnect from her. I don't feel like with the other women.

I feel way more connected to them and curious about them and excited about them release. I feel I'm not going to get it. I'm not going to get what I'm looking for with you. And so I, my curiosity gets blocked.

Jenny: Yeah, so let's get into [01:03:00] Caroline Brooks. She also is struggling with this issue with her parenting in first season, being strict on her son. Second season she built this new business. Yeah, Caroline Brooks I have to admit I'm obsessed with 

Sam: She is so fascinating. She is so fascinating. I love, there's so many good scenes, but what we know is she got with her ex husband Zoran, who's Adam's father when she was really young and he was much older. And they make a lot of insinuations that relationship was not a healthy or safe one and that her mom had to come to Serbia and rescue her from a moment where she felt like her life was in danger and that she

Jenny: oh yeah,

Sam: and had this rise up.

And

Jenny: he comes on camera. I was like, oh, Because I felt like they were being very careful in the way they were telling that story and that, there was some insinuation of abuse, and then when he popped up on camera and they did the scene, I was like, oh my gosh, that's, it was fascinating

Sam: not only does he come on camera, but he's [01:04:00] accountable. Like he admits that like he was, I don't know that he admits that he was abusive, but he's yeah, I wasn't great. I, I'm sorry. There's this moment of like repair. And I think that's pretty Probably part of why it was, why he felt empowered to come on, because he was willing to take some accountability, and it does feel like they're working on their relationship.

Still doesn't seem super healthy, the way they navigate it,

Jenny: Yeah, it comes up in the, yeah, it comes up in the reunion that she's got all these rich men giving her money. And in the first season she talks about how her business was being partially funded by an ex boyfriend and her husband, her ex husband was helping with the Zoron is, yeah, with building it.

 I think the way the women said it about her was not. Appropriate, but I do think there's a dynamic with Caroline Brooks where she has, does like to have platonic or not platonic relationships with older men with money. Because we've seen it play [01:05:00] out and then they cut to a clip of her talking to this older man being like, he buys me bags and he does all these things.

And then

Sam: Saying, no, he hasn't No,

Jenny: Yeah, I was like, what? But there's nothing like necessarily

Sam: do think she holds two realities for herself. It's really interesting, because there's also this moment where she's, talking about her parenting and saying that she, her mom was a really strict parent. She was like, she, I guess she grew up in Boston or Massachusetts, but her family's from Honduras.

And she was like, when I go out, I was in at Massachusetts. But when I was at home, I was in Honduras. And she talked about how her mom was really strict and really harsh. And then we hear this narrative that she like, leaves home really young with this older man who's clearly Zoran had money and was taking care of her.

And to me, I hear that, but he like, rescued her from like a childhood she wanted to be away from. Rescued is a big, idealized word because clearly he brought her into something else unhealthy. But then

Jenny: can't imagine being an immigrant in Boston was easy either, to be honest.

Sam: [01:06:00] No, not at all. But then she talks about how she wants to be a parent like her mom, because she likes the way she was raised, and she likes how she turned out, and it feels like there's this duality in her that feels like, that must understand that there's part of that was really unhealthy and unhelpful for her, and that still wants to Keep family legacy.

And I feel like we see this with her a lot where there's like these two worlds that exist for her at the same time that are completely opposing.

Jenny: Yeah, and I think with drinking with her, because I, something that came up in the reunion was that Andy said even the producers I told her you need to like chill and you're drinking which is a big deal now Bravo's really struggling with figuring out those boundaries, especially with this lawsuit with the whole Morocco situation, but anyways so I thought that was really interesting and I do see on this show that she seems to drink to give herself like a liquid courage to say things that she's upset about but then it never comes out right because she's just emotional and drunk and so 

Sam: Shannon energy [01:07:00] a little because all the women talk about how she like calls them early in the morning to like gossip about things. I'm like, is she hungover? Like calling people and what's going on here?

Jenny: she's trying to be the operator that Lisa actually is. Like she wants to be an operator but it is Shannon energy almost like she's she does seem she's trying to produce here and there but it just keeps failing on her like bringing to lean in, which I don't even think we need to do a whole thing on to lean because we loved her this season she was very authentic and great, but obviously Caroline Brooks brought her and being like you're going to be you.

You're going to be my Chanel. And then when it didn't work out, she like flipped out. So she was like almost the opera. She wants to be a Lisa operator, but ends up being just

Sam: She definitely is similar that I feel like she does want to be seen in a certain way, in the same way that Lisa wants to be seen, but she's such a mess. Even if we go back to that scene with her and Sarah at her house with her son and she tells the nanny to put her son away to bed and Sarah's you should put [01:08:00] your own kid to bed.

And Sarah does come in a little judgmental and condescending of her parenting style. And. Then she's asking about should I send him to boarding school? Is that a good idea? There's this way in which she wants that to be seen as look at what I can give my kid.

Look at who I am. And then she's getting this information back that no, actually, that's bad. That's bad. And then she gets dysregulated, right? She's I want you to see me this way. Nobody sees me that way. And then I explode.

Jenny: yeah. And this season with the spa, I think that everyone was saying like, you're working a lot and you need to take a break. And when you're starting a business like that is really hard. really stressful, so I want to give her credit for that.

But it is I think she's trying to also justify, a lot of, early youth, marrying a wealthy man. And now she's building something on her own. And I think she wants to prove something, but to pivot off of that fight with Sara Sara, I want to like her. I like, I love that [01:09:00] she's on the show. I love that she's from Dubai and she's Emirati, But I struggle. I struggle with Sarah.

Sam: so she's the one woman in the cast who kind of identifies as more of a I want to say traditional Arab woman. I can't remember the language she uses it, but

Jenny: She's Muslim. Yeah.

Sam: identifies as an Arab woman and also a rebel, right? Like she's not, and I think that conflict in her is so core to how we see her move through the Through herself and the group of, I want to be this traditional thing and I want to be different and rebel rebellious because she doesn't drink, but she has tattoos.

She like doesn't do this, but then she does that. And there's like this conflict between these are the ways that I'm good. And these are the ways that I'm bad. And how do I resolve that by then sublimating and becoming this like healer and the one who is, the one who's like in that journey of awareness and [01:10:00] healing and social awareness.

But it feels like at the core, like really she's not, she doesn't know who she is. And so then she like projects healing onto all the other women.

Jenny: Yeah. Cause she was being Caroline Brooks's Caroline Brooks was being her puppet or something this season. And I just think she like co opted Caroline Brooks to be like, join my

Sam: She did the same thing to Chanel the first season, right? Like she was like, she tried to do it to Chanel and then they got in conflict. So this season she did it. And it's. At the deficit of getting to know her and I get the sense that she may be a little I know there's this outside thing happening with Saba, her friend that she brought on to the show is now saying like she's like a scammer or like a grifter and I do get the sense that She might be? because I don't know what she does. I don't understand her job. I don't understand, yeah, what what she does.

Jenny: Yeah, [01:11:00] I loved Saba this year. I would love to see her come back. She did a formal Instagram breaking up with her, friendship wise, but I would love to see her back because I thought she was very poised. She, she was a good friend of, but with Sara yeah, I am very confused.

 Is she on a PSA journey to sell healing to the world? 

Sam: I actually hate healing journey because it, it gives you this idea that there's this end point where you're going to be healed. But there's no end point where we're healed. 

Jenny: Which apparently only takes one session

Sam: We're constantly working through our past and the new things that come up in our present, and I wish I knew more about, like, where her healing journey started.

I guess she talks about having had these Two past marriages that didn't work out one, it seemed like maybe was abusive. And then the second one didn't want to claim her son. And it seems like she's holding both it's okay that I got divorced. And that's good. And also like shame [01:12:00] about again, that like Arab woman identity and how divorce is frowned upon.

And just different things where it feels like, I wish she talked more about that dichotomy in her and really went into that because it feels often when she brings it up, she's trying to like, compensate and make us believe that it's okay that she's holding these two things when it's like, Fine.

That's fine with us. We don't that's fine. It doesn't seem totally fine with you, but it's, for us we don't know the difference. I had to Google whether it was okay in Islam to have tattoos, and apparently it's haram, which means it's not good. But I wouldn't know that. I don't know all the laws and rules and expectations.

And it feels like she's trying to convince me that it's okay that she's a rebel. And I'm like, I don't need you to convince me of that. What I want to see is the vulnerability underneath that and the complicated conflicts that must come up for you around holding those two identities.

Jenny: Yeah, and for me being married to a Middle Eastern [01:13:00] immigrant I see this in the, his community as well I think, a lot of young Muslims growing up in a modern world where you have Instagram, even if you're living in, United Arab Emirates or you're living in Iran or you're living in other countries, you can see you have access to everything now, which wasn't the case even like five, 10 years ago.

So I think, she is representing that struggle where, she wants to appear on camera as a good Muslim woman. She's not eating or drinking during Ramadan. She's not kissing her boyfriend before engagement. And that's really interesting and I wonder if it's hard for her because she wants to show that but I don't like the women really push on like you don't kiss your boyfriend and I think she wanted to clarify like this is just not something I can talk about but I and I think that is a struggle for her so

Sam: I imagine the stakes feel higher for her [01:14:00] because of being the only Emirati woman and her kind of coming in as this, I'm the one who is and I think that's the symbol of this place more than these other people and so the stakes are higher for how I'm seen like what I'm doing and I want to be true and honest with myself, but I also want to make sure I'm doing like the socially acceptable things to some degree.

And again, like I wish we could get into that conflict with her more like I wish she would. Even talk about that, like what that pressure is to be an Emirati or an Arab woman. To me, that stuff is interesting, where it feels like instead we get again this sort of I'm going to turn the unacceptable parts of me into acceptable things by being a healer And helping everyone else heal from their traumas.

And it, it feels again, another wall. And I, at the beginning of our document that we wrote, I like attachment theory just felt like such a big thing in [01:15:00] this cast. And maybe it's really interesting because they're all, a lot of them are expats and coming from a different place and coming into this place and how attachment must get played out and all of this.

But it feels like each of this woman, women are coming with really. Really big attachment wounds that are then being like triggered on the show and that are then being shown on the show and Sarah feels like the one where I'm like, I know it's there and yet you won't let me have full access to it.

Jenny: yeah do you want to

Sam: like I have more access to.

Jenny: Yeah, do you want to give a primer on like attachment in general?

Sam: Yeah so attachment is, it's how we understand our safety in relationships, and it starts in early childhood and it's dependent on the emotional availability of our caregivers at an early age can either create a secure attachment, an anxious attachment, an avoidant attachment, or a disorganized attachment.

And as you get into [01:16:00] adulthood, it changes a little, so the three sort of maladaptive attachment styles of adults are anxious preoccupied, so this is fear of abandonment, and people tend to engage in behaviors to prevent abandonment, so they may be like people pleasers, seek a lot of reassurance, have a lot of codependent, be really emotionally sensitive.

Then there's the anxious avoidant, so you're like emotionally distant. You tend to be more aloof, not trusting, difficulty expressing your emotions, bottle things up, then explode.

Like people who tend to try to avoid being hurt. Then there's disorganized, which is like a more extreme pattern of seeking closeness and then pushing away. I don't know that we see that the more extreme disorganized. Those people tend to struggle more with functionality but on a minor level that disorganization can show up in the other attachment styles. Yeah,

Jenny: struggle with, where I struggle with Sarah this season story wise is we [01:17:00] started the season with her on her healing, with her healers and she's on this healing journey as she always is. And she wants to figure out a way to meet the right guy that she could get married and her son can have a real father and she can have a real relationship and she's doing these healing exercises which apparently one alone fixes you somehow and you know that's what she's going to do and then we see her with this process.

Guy who lives in Germany, doesn't even live in the same city as her. He's a, a model and, I'm sure he is successful, but young and, again, not even living in the same city as her. And she's trying to do things differently. So she really has her son spend time with him, which was really good to see.

And I appreciated it. But then at the end, he's telling her, don't take this job, which I, if someone paid us 20, 000 to be in a podcast, call us up, happy to do it.

Sam: we'll do it with our shirts off.

Jenny: Yeah, I don't understand what her job is at all either, but I can't believe she was getting paid [01:18:00] podcast.

And she should have taken that. And he didn't want her to do that. And then they ended up breaking up. It turned out she got a detective and he was cheating on her. But the beginning of the season was your healing journey that you were going to meet the right guy and that one healing journey alone can fix you.

But then at the end of the season, we see that you will pick the worst guy for you. So

Sam: Again, we're seeing like that anxious avoidant attachment style come up, right? Like she wants something, but she is seeking relationships that are outside of that. And so there's clearly a true avoidant of avoidance, of trying to find a relationship that could be those things, and probably it's coming from this part of her that doesn't trust that that fully exists.

Jenny: Yeah, I, and that's why her storyline being a PSA for healing, feels like I wish someone would call her out because she's pushing this healing on everybody else, but it doesn't seem like anyone's Holding her accountable for what's going on with your healing?

Sam: Oh and I do feel like the women [01:19:00] do bring it up to an extent, but it does feel like Sarah is really good at deflecting and avoiding really talking about herself in those ways, in the more critical ways or the deeper ways. And she's another one who it feels is really wanting to show us what she wants to show us and not really go on that deeper level.

Jenny: which is that's her whole brand like that's what her so it's confused. Yeah, it became a whole

Sam: so is she a grifter? That's the bigger question. Do we think she's a grifter?

Jenny: So let's get into a final question.

So a little bit different because we're doing a whole show, but, do we like Dubai? Is it good for reality TV? Do we want to see more of these women?

Sam: 100%. Yeah, I want to see them all back. I actually, even Lisa I want to see them all back. I want to like, continue to get to know them. I want to, I want them to like, break down the idea of like, how they have to show up for TV and just be more authentic. I'm [01:20:00] really excited to see Lisa without Aion as her as her puppet 

and I love the place. I love getting to know Dubai. I think it's so interesting. I don't know that I'll ever be able to go there just because it seems really far away and really expensive.

Jenny: It is very expensive. So we can go once a week to Dubai when Real Housewives of Dubai. Cause that's how I feel too. So I agree is reality TV good for, these women or I think for Dubai, it shows a more modern, the new Middle East. And I think that's really interesting. I think all these ladies are really good on TV and I think that they all are handling it really well.

I think even Caroline Brooks kind of acknowledging, yeah, I need to chill on my drinking and the producer supporting her in that kind of shows that I think everyone's managing being on the show well, to me.

Sam: do. I think all of the women do seem to use the show as a way to reflect back on themselves and what feels like a more helpful way than we see a lot of other [01:21:00] stories go when it comes to like how we're seeing character exchange from season to season. Like I do see growth from season one to season two in almost all of these women and that feels really good.

Jenny: Yeah, I think as far as what I'd want from another season is, I like that they went to Bali, especially because Caroline Stanbury goes to Bali a lot but I mean we've seen other housewives. Shows go to Bali. So it didn't feel that unique. I would love to see them go somewhere more like Middle East centered Oman is a beautiful country.

They would have to wear a hijab. So that could be really interesting Turkey I went to this amazing place called Cappadocia, which is like You stay in these cave hotels and it's really beautiful. And Chanel Ayaan with a ball gown and hat, air balloons in the background. It just seems like perfect fit.

I'd also love to see them go to Africa. Maybe Chanel [01:22:00] Ayaan could do that trip. Yeah, just something a little bit more unique because I feel like all the other housewives have done Morocco, they've done Bali, try something new. But I know logistically, that can be very difficult, just production wise, but, what would you want to see?

Sam: I want to see more of what we're seeing. I don't know that I like even need it to change in any way than just continue. I like, I think it's good. Like why nothing's broken to me.

It's really working. I feel like all of my criticisms of most of these women is I just wanna know you more.

Jenny: Yeah they've had a nice little break. I am hoping to hear another season, and we get more, so if you have not watched it, and you stuck around for this big recap, just keep watching. Tune in. But yeah, we've been really appreciating all the messages we've been getting on our Instagram.

Our Instagram is unhinged on camera. If you want to follow us so many smart women with their feedback and we've gotten so many requests, so we are. We are [01:23:00] starting to manage all the requests. I think Salt Lake City is probably next on our

Sam: we've got some good shows coming out. Salt Lake, Potomac. Beverly Hills. So there's lots of people we want to talk about in those franchises.

Jenny: Stay tuned. . And yeah. Keep listening..