The F*ck Boys of Southern Charm

In this episode, we’re unleashing our female rage to take on the f*ckboys of Bravo’s Southern Charm. We dissect the perpetual Peter Pan Syndrome plaguing Shep Rose and Austen Kroll and how the “Wendys” in their lives unknowingly enable their antics. Plus, we celebrate Craig’s glow-up into the evolved Pillow King we know and love—while speculating if next season the Peter Pans will stage a revolt against him.

Tune in for all the drama, hot takes, and unhinged commentary you didn’t know you needed!

Follow us on IG for more chaos: @unhingedandoncamera

Chapters

• 3:03 Intro the pod
• 7:34 Shep
• 14:07 Shep's mom issues
• 30:04 Shep and Cameron
• 38:24 Austen
• 45:52 Austen and Olivia
• 58:50 Craig
• 1:13:22 Final Questions

Transcript

Unknown: We are officially in a post-election era of unhinged and on camera. And I do want to mention that we got a fan mail letter of someone saying that we were helping them get over their election blues. And it was maybe the best piece of mail that I've ever gotten. So I have gotten a lot of fan mail ever late, but we are very happy to be a, port in the storm of our country right now or other countries, because we have to represent to Trinidad and Tobago. Yes. Our number one fans, obviously, who are hopefully going to take us in at some point. I don't know. Do you have anything you want to say about the election or. We got to just move on for that. I think we just need to move forward. And yeah, I, I'm still processing, so I don't know that I have anything to say. Well, I will say over the weekend, me and my husband have been watching Seinfeld because he's never watched it because he didn't grow up in America, which is funny in itself, to watch Seinfeld for the first time with someone. But there was an episode where Elaine is dating this like hot mover man, and then he starts telling her how he doesn't believe that abortion should be a woman's right. And she go, Elaine broke up with him, and at some point he says, One day we're going to overturn that law. And I it was like literally chills in my spine. Oh, my God. But also predicting the future, you know? But also I was like, you know, that kind of put it in perspective to me how long this battle has been going on on the other side. And we might just have to fight this for another 40 years on our side, and we just have to buckle down and keep going. And one election is really not going to change like the amount that we're going to keep going forward. And, you know, that's all I got to say. But, you know, if anyone is angry today, we are channeling female rage. And how we're doing that is a recommendation from someone who was an amazing Instagram name, by the way, kosher crab cake. And she had asked for a mama's boy to fuck boy episode. But we're going to focus more on the fuck boy aspect of this. And ironically, we also got our first Bravolebrity Dam ever prom king. Fuck boy of them all. Jax Taylor So it's a perfect segment and I'm going to tell you guys what he said because it was just so good. We had posted about us talking about his podcast in the last pod we did about it was really about newbies, but at the end we threw in some random Bravo news and I posted that we talked about his podcast and we were actually we were like, I was, I mean, Sam, I don't know, we had a different opinion, but Jenni gives Jax a lot more grace than I do. But I was like, it might be. I mean, whether it's good or not, I don't know. But it's I thought it was at least a decent concept for him to do this like male oriented podcast. But anyways, I posted about this and he just sent a reply to the story and said, Please be nice. Or was it be nice? Please clarify that you put it in quotes that made it seem like you're like looked it up. But I might have, you know, my brain's not working that well post-election. Be nice, please, because I wasn't sure if he meant like like he's kind of scolding us to be nice or if he's, like, asking us to be nice. The title does that. It's hard to read. Does that change the tone? Totally. To be like, be nice, please or please? I guess either way it feels like, are you scolding us to be nice or are you telling us that we were already mean? Jax Do you listen to our podcast? Because if you do, like, respect, yeah. I didn't get the sense that he listened to the podcast because otherwise he wouldn't have said that. So he needs to listen to the pot, obviously. But if we ever make merch, that will probably be on it. We're going to look up the actual quote. And today we are not going to be nice because it's all about female rage and we're talking about Fuck Boys. We decided that the best way to get into this is probably the show that has the most fuck boys, which is Southern charm. Well, and in honor of it, returning soon. It's nice to kind of like catch up with our good old boys club and maybe break down the the different boys that make up this club. Yeah. And something that I think we talked about in our other Southern Charm episode about Catherine Calhoun, Dennis was about how, you know, white privilege also hurts white people. And that's not something we talk about, you know, because obviously there's a lot of privileges that come with white privilege. But I also think being in part of the good old boy culture really hurts men as well. Like, I mean, it hurts women more significantly, obviously, but it's also not good for men. So, I mean, which you can really see on Southern charm as these men continue to seemingly devolve well and hurts is such an interesting thing to say because like, I would challenge that. I don't know if any of them feel hurt by the things that, like we can reflect on and be like, this is subjectively like problematic or objectively problematic. Both. I don't know if they feel the hurts of that because they're privilege allows them to like hide from any hurts they may feel from, you know, moving through the world with white male privilege. Yeah. I mean, I think hurt. I mean, more of like preventing them from having healthy relationships and how poppy lives because especially I still start to question whether they feel I'm still putting a big question mark. We can ask that at the end. Yeah. Let's ask that question to come back to. Yeah. Okay. So I feel like Shep is a good person to start into with this question also because I mean, his last reunion, he was the darkest I've ever seen him, which we've seen him get pretty dark, by the way. But that last reunion and just them recounting what happened at Bravocon in Vegas with his drinking, I mean, that's kind of where I go with the hurt. I'm like, this man is clearly unwell. So Shep is an OG of Southern charm. He was part of the original cast from season one. he was born into wealth. So he comes from an extremely wealthy and well-off and well known family in the South. He is old money doesn't have to work. He has an older sister and a younger brother. Where did you get this information that his mom was a stay at home mom? So one of the reunions, they're talking about Cameron struggling between being a stay at home mom and working because she wants to work. But her husband's obviously, like very wealthy, so she doesn't need to work. And Andy was sort of calling her out that the audience was kind of like, you come from such a place of like privilege. And then they kind of went around and everyone said, What's their moms did or didn't do? And Shep was like, My mom was a full time mom. That was her only job and she loved it. And then Austin actually says how his mom was always a working mom and he was raised by nannies, which I thought was interesting. And I think Craig says his parents split all the duties very equally so as we get into all the men. But it is interesting to think that Shep had these very traditional roles in his family. Mm hmm. Well, not surprising either. Coming from the South, from a wealthy family. It's it makes a lot of sense. I also think, like, what I understand is both of his siblings are married with children, have lived like very traditional. And what is like the expected life from that family of wealth and that old money situation where it does feel like it's interesting one that Shep is like the middle child, right? Like what we know about sibling order is like the oldest tends to be like the family hero and the one that's like who does right and is perfect and does all the things they're supposed to do. And the youngest is like kind of the baby and like the mascot and makes the family feel happy where the middle child tends to be like the lost child, the child that like doesn't get seen. And so it's interesting that it feels like some of this acting out and oppositional behavior that we see from Shep in like, I'm not going to follow the family expectations. I'm going to like go to what is it called in Peter Pan Neverland and be a boy forever in Charleston. It feels like it's like almost an act of opposition, an act of like getting attention from his family. I don't know. How do you see that? Yeah. There's definitely an element of control that he seems to need at very pivotal points throughout the show. He does this thing consistently where he kind of uses language or philosophy. Sometimes it's hilarious. I don't remember the exact quote, but when so when he when Austin hooks up with Taylor, he says some quote about wine tells the truth or something. Like he always says the Latin phrases and he does a good job of sort of make, in a way, being condescending while being charming. But he doesn't intentionally write like he's. doing it in a way to say that he's superior to a Craig or a Taylor or whoever he's dating. That's one element of control I've seen. And then also, you know, it seems like he has a lot of issues with his mom, which I want to get into. But also, like he always dates women who are just so much younger than him and in such a different position. Like it would be fascinating to see Shep date someone his own age who actually has money actually as a career, actually, you know, has anything going for them. And it's intentional that he doesn't date that person. Right. Well, and I think he's been it's interesting because I feel like he's been pretty clear that he doesn't actually want like a partner, like a right like a gay egalitarian type partner. Like I think he does like this idea of having a younger girl that he has control over and doesn't feel like the situation will get out of control or that he can be undermined. I read somewhere online, I don't remember him talking about on the show, but that the only girl that he ever loved was his like high school girlfriend and that she ended up leaving him and like marrying like the next guy that she got with after him. And that felt like, what, like a wound that must be for his ego. That, like, now that he's moving forward, he's like, I will never, like, love a girl again. I will never, like, make it possible for someone to, like, leave me and hurt me. Tell me about what you think about his mom. I didn't know that he. I'm curious your thoughts about his relationship with his mom. So, yeah. And even him dating Taylor kind of feels like high school sweetheart vibes. Like she's the she's the queen head cheerleader almost. And it's funny because she's the first girl we really see him date seriously. I rewatched a little bit how they got together and it was just they met at a bar and sort of flirted and she kind of gave him his shit back. But it was nothing different than all the other girls he he met. Surprisingly, he had just started therapy around the time he started dating Taylor, which was kind of interesting. I don't know if it really plays into it. The thing with his mom is also during the pandemic, right? Like their relationship started during the pandemic. And that makes me wonder that if the pandemic hadn't happened, would that have even lasted or been as serious as it was? Was it therapy or was it the pandemic was a little bit of both. Like it feels like he almost like lost a little control because of the bigger circumstances of like, oh, well, I'm not going to be able to, like, go out to bars and like meet new girls. So I might as well just like hunker down with this one for now. That's a very good point, because even when he was dating Taylor, he was still going to bars and hitting on girls. So that was what sort of ended their relationship. So it does feel like almost the pandemic shutting down bars in the clubs in May and travel may have contributed. The mom stuff really came up for me when they were sort of still together, but things were rocky and they had gone on that trip at that modern house that Whitney set up, and they were playing the egg toss. And he had said something along the lines of like, Fuck you too, Taylor, I don't know. And then all the women were like, Don't speak to her like that. And he was like, I speak to my mother like this and whatever. And then Taylor said, like, he often speaks to his mother this way. I totally believe that. I totally believe that him and his mom have this relationship where he gets away with everything like he can do no wrong. And I think part of it may be like he's so oppositional, they're like, we have to like let him do it. Like, my, my imagination is as a younger kid, the more they tried to control him, the more he reacted. And now they just, like, let him be. But when you don't set limits and boundaries for your children, they don't learn to set limits and boundaries for themselves. And we're seeing like the consequences of that is that he can't in any part of his life. I'm thinking about like when he had that like doctor's visit. I don't know if you remember, it was a bunch of seasons ago and they were like, you're unhealthy and like you need to stop drinking. And he, like, went sober and did yoga once for like and he stopped drinking for like a couple days. And then a few days later, he's like, back. It's like he doesn't know how to really set limits for himself. He doesn't really know how to write. It's such perceived control like you're talking about how he like wants to control others, but he has like zero control over himself. Such a good point. And also I feel like with the money stuff, it's so weird to me that you would come from this old money. He talks about his family being from steal, steal money or something, but anyways, that you just kind of have this, you know, nest egg that you just get a check every month and his parents just don't care what he does with it at all. And with Craig, he's so hard on him about what he's doing throughout the show and if he's going to be a loyal competition. That's such a projection. And then he's like, He doesn't have what I have, but it's like. But you have what you have and you don't actually appreciate it or create any boundaries or do anything with it. But it's all deflection, even like going back to what you were saying about him being like, well, read and having these quotes and like being able to like talk intellectually. He's got that whole like, right, like intellectual persona. And I remember Thomas kind of had this too, and he was on the show where he would like give those spiels and do quotes from different books and like, but it's not intellectual in like you're interested in having an interesting conversation about art and literature. It's a way to avoid and deflect from his own emotions, his own responsibility, his own behavior. It's like, I couldn't be that bad because, look, I'm I'm educated and it's like, well, you stole basically, like, sexually assaulted Chelsea. Oh, we got to get at that. But I mean, just going back to the original question, I said, I mean, this is where I say privilege does hurt sometimes because for someone who is so well-educated has any money. Like, what has he done with any of that? Like, really nothing. And then the fact that he has the balls to criticize Craig or anybody else with what they do when he's given everything and really does nothing with it. And no one really calls him out on that, ever. Well, yes, because that's where it comes from. Right. Like is that his family never called him out. Like, it's almost like I as a therapist, I'm thinking about like how to help somebody who's never been held accountable, realize they're accountable for their own lives while also holding this empathy for like, oh, you are a victim of a circumstance where nobody taught you this. This was this is like we don't responsibility is not something we just know. It's something we learned through experience. And he's never had experiences where he's had to take responsibility or learn responsibility or again, like learn those internal boundaries, learn those internal limits. And I think both in his family and in society, you know, being a white man, being a tall white man in the South, like he gets away with a lot, even, you know, going to the Chelsea thing for like he kind of got away with like that. To me, I'm like with this sexual assaults, like you assaulted her, she did not want to be kissed and you kissed her. And everyone is like no one is like calling it out as that they're all saying, Oh, this is just Shep. And I think that's what he's gotten his whole life like. This is just him. And he even says that, I think to a certain extent of like, well, this is who I am. So like, either you love me or you hate me. And if you hate me, that's cool too. Like, that's, you know, part of who I am is people don't like me and like, it feels like a funny guy schtick, but it's it's right. It's dangerous, definitely. And it and the Chelsea thing was another evidence of just control that he couldn't handle, that Austin was going to get a girl that he could get and he had to assert dominance in some ways. And I mean, you see this with this game playing, too, that he always freaks out whenever he loses a game or has to play. Like he just can't he can't handle losing. And I think that comes from insecurity. I think on the Chelsea thing, it's very ironic because throughout the show he's the king of trying to hold people accountable in ways that is just it's shocking to me. Nobody calls him out more because it's like you don't even follow your own rules. I think he was really hard on Madison. I rewatched a little bit of that whole situation. Austin cheats on Madison with a threesome and then Madison intern sleeps with someone else, which in my mind is not cheating. At that point. You're not together because he cheated on you with a threesome. And he explains to Chelsea, ironically, how he feels that Shep feels that what Madison did was far worse than when Austin did because she was doing it in retaliation for what Austin did. But to me, I'm like, No, man, he's not mouthing that magic thing. But I think that's his experience. I do think, like, he genuinely believes that as a male, you're like, your behavior is not it doesn't matter where women's behavior does. It's interesting because the first episode ever of Southern Charm is called Peter Pan Syndrome. They spell it kind of weird, but like basically they're acknowledging that we are about to be introduced to a bunch of Peter pans and when, all these young Ian analysts at work talk about the Peter Pan syndrome and the Peter Pan archetypes, you know, that's the internal boy. And so all of these are Peter Pans. They, you know, fear, attachment. They don't want commitment. They like responsibility. They want to have fun. They tend to like seek drugs and alcohol. But when you think about like the Wendy archetype, she is about stability, growth, meeting, social expectations. And so when you're thinking about Shep dating these younger women, it's like they're not Wendy's. Yeah, right. Like they're still in that whatever the who let pew latch or whatever they call the the female version of the pure Peter Pan I'm sorry my French is terrible so anyone who is better at it, I am not going to correct you. But like he is looking for other inner like eternal children. Like he's looking for children to meet his inner child because he doesn't want a grown woman who is going to have an expectation that he seeks some stability or some commitment or show some responsibility. I don't I don't think he could handle that. I don't think that he I think he would be unattractive to that. I think that's what he's so threatened by with Madison, because Madison and why it works with Cameron. Cameron is almost his Wendy right. Because throughout the show she sort of excuses his behavior while trying to change it. Whereas Madison is like, Fuck that, like you're wrong and he just cannot handle that at all. Oh, that's a really good insight. I love that idea that, like, Madison represents, like, a woman that makes him completely insecure. Right? Like a woman who is powerful. A woman who doesn't need a man like she is. Like she's not going to sit there and, like, cry over you. She's going to go find another man to be with if you can't man up for her. She's a woman who owns her own business. She is like a strong woman. Where I actually think Cameron is very different. I think Cameron is a guy's girl. Right. Like she's the girl who is tends to be friends with guys. So it's much more forgiving of their behavior and tends to take on a mother role. And I think Patricia is a little bit of this, too. You know, I think Patricia is like Cameron in many years of Cameron, you know, married a bunch of rich men. So I know Cameron's going to be a little more boring than her. Mean, she's got a rich husband. Cameron is trying to, like, mother, foster them into adulthood, but is also like, okay, if they don't. And that puts her in a bind of like, you're never going to get anywhere as long as you're okay with they don't. And I think this is what goes back to childhood, right? I mean, the standards for women in this society and men in this society growing up is so different. I mean, I remember being in my late twenties dating a guy who didn't have possession of his own passport because his mom carried his passport as a as a 27, 28 year old. Like what if you want to go on an international trip, which you can do at any point because you have money and time to do that, you have to go to your mom's house and ask for permission to get your passport. Like, I can't even like I can't even wrap my head around a girl at that age not being in charge of her own documents. And then you see men marry women and they're in charge of their documents. Yeah. Yeah. I do think societally, like there's a little bit of like it's interesting that men are in charge of the country because the women are always in charge of the men. That is a campaign slogan commercial. They called me. Yeah, but it's like, you know, all of those men, they're women make like any man who is in power in any position or just and in most men around the world. And, you know, obviously we're generalizing, but like I tend to defer to like a woman to take care of things if they can. Obviously, if you're a single man, you have to do it your own. But I find, at least in my experience with dating men, most of them have like required me to make the decisions and like do the planning and make sure things happen. Well, you have a son now, so you better make sure he knows how to do laundry and carry his own documents. No, he's he's going to be a chef, I'm sure. You know, he'll be more of a drag. We can get into that. Yeah. Okay. I could support a Craig. A chef is got to go so Madison really challenges him and I think she challenges all the man and that's what I love the most about her. I mean, that meltdown that they had about she's broken up with Austin. He's been nothing but like basically abusive to her. She's a child in all of this. And Craig is calling her out for DMing A-Rod. When it's none of your effing business. I mean, she did separate him from J.Lo, which may or may not have been a good thing. But anyways, The standards for Madison is just so different than the men, obviously, but it triggers all of them because it makes them insecure, is how I feel about him. But. Which is why it's so good they brought her on because it was really hard to watch because I think Chelsea was going to kind of be that. But I think she quickly realized, like, I don't actually care, too, to play this and left. I mean, a Peter Pan syndrome to me does hurt the man because it keeps them in a perpetual state of and they might be happy in that. They may not feel like yeah, her is interesting. It's a disadvantage right you're missing out on something but also to grow up and allow responsibility for them would be like, Oh, then I'm missing out on something else too. So it's like to grow up means accepting the loss of freedom, right? Of complete freedom, of lack of responsibility. Like when you're a kid, you don't have the same accountability and responsibility as you do in adulthood. That just is what it is, right? Like that's part of childhood and it's a beautiful part of childhood. And what happens when you grow up is you want to find ways to hold on and nurture an inner child while also accepting the responsibilities and the limitations and the realities of your adult self and to create what is a healthy balance of those two things But I think for a lot of these men, that balance is too scary and feels like it would suck up any of that, like freedom and fun and carefree ness they are living life with. But I do think as they are getting older, that's where I think you're saying that hurt will happen. Right. Like you see someone like Thomas at his age in his position and it's sad, right? Like that's just sad to look at. And even like a Whitney like watching Whitney, like be this like 50 year old man who like, still looks I mean, I guess he looks great and I wouldn't know he was 50, but I cried for that. But it's it's kind of sad to know like that probably that line of people is going to end with him. But I guess it's not out if you don't want children like, okay, yeah, you don't want them, you shouldn't have them. I was going to say it might be better that these people don't write like, I don't know, maybe and maybe it's okay. Maybe having a deep, meaningful relationship isn't something that is important to them. And like, is that just a judgment on from us? Because like that's, you know, where we make our value. And I guess that's why when you said it hurts them, I'm like, Yeah, I can see that objectively. Like from where I stand, it seems like this is something that hurts you. But then like, you know, if we were to talk to Shep and like be like, what is this like for you? I don't know that he would. I think intellectually he could name those hurts, but I don't know that he feels those like even going back to that forced kiss on Chelsea and like how we're all looking at him a little bit like a sexual predator. Like, I don't know that he internalizes that. And I think he's got a lot of like the walls up that allow him to deflect from those bad feelings that come with some of the negative behaviors that are associated with this, like Peter Pan identity he has. And I think something that goes wrong on the show is all these women, because his cousin came on briefly try to push this idea of traditional marriage and kids on him. And what's unfortunate is if they actually cared about his well-being and evolution as a person, they wouldn't be pushing that on him. I think they would be pushing on him accountability. I think they would be pushing on him to be a better partner, be a more empathetic person, not scream fuck you to your mother. I mean, I think it's just ironic Cameron and his cousin kind of pushing just get married and say, but if he gets no, he's going can have a woman come in and make him look like a grown up, but he's still not going to be a fucking grown up and take care of him. And what does that do to the woman? Like, there's no thought of how that would affect them. And that's the thing that frustrates me with Cameron throughout the whole show is like you're just pushing that he's got to find the right girl, but the actual issue is fucking him, right? Right. He is the issue. You actually were to hold him accountable and set boundaries and some of those boundaries maybe like I'm not going to be in your life if you continue to behave this way, but then you have to accept you're going to lose out on like hanging out with fun chap. And I think that's like the line that people hold around boundaries with anyone is like, okay, if I'm really holding someone accountable for the behavior, I have to set a boundary and then I have to like really live by it for them to feel the consequences of it. But there is a lot. They're right. Like having a rich, fun friend is probably something a lot of these people don't want to lose. And if we go to the Taylor year long trip of it all, which I know people are really hard on Taylor about this. And I thought it was a little unfair because if I was 25 and a guy like, I'm going to pay for you to travel the world, and I was working, you know, a job that wasn't necessarily like my life's passion. You know, my ass would be on that plane, right? I didn't think her saying yes to that was so bad. And my understanding was she did not say yes to was that she went for a couple months and then came back to her job. I thought she didn't leave her job. She did because then when she came back, remember, he got her that job working for the alcohol brand and that's what she was doing. When she came back, she was like a she was a dental hygienist assistant, something she was working in a dental office, which is a good, steady job But I mean, not I didn't think it was a job she couldn't go back to. Right. And not sure or get like another job like that. Like, I don't I don't totally understand the storyline. I think I think Taylor did kind of want, you know, there's a reason she wanted to date Shep. She it's she's young enough that she wasn't blind to the show to know, like, who somewhat who this person is, even though she was young. Like, you watch the show, you get an idea. This guy is he's rich, he's a playboy. He doesn't work. I'm going to get a certain lifestyle if I date him. So it's hard for me not to think that Taylor has her own role in this, where I think she wanted to be on the show. That was part of probably why she went after him. She probably really wanted the lifestyle he offered. So her him asking her to quit her job and come to Europe with him for a year. Well, look, why would she say no like she and she's not like it's not like she's so old that she's so established in a career that like, you're going to leave something and then you're have to start from scratch. Like, she was 25 years old, though. She'll just like go back and get another position and work your way up in the same way. Like, to me, that's not that crazy. Yeah. And I think for the women on the show, what was weird to me is throughout that whole season, she was talking to his cousin about potentially being pregnant because she wasn't using protection. And then the cousin was really pushing Shep to, you know, marry her. And it's like, okay, you don't think it's acceptable for her to take a break from work and travel with him for a year? But you're cool with her trying to trap him with the baby, essentially, or force him to propose when he's not ready. Like, what are these? I mean, I do think there's a deeper concern that I think Shep wanted some like power and control over Taylor. And that's like something for her to, like, look at in herself. Like, where does she, like, defer power? Because I do think she has a similar vibe to someone like Raquel who is willing to like defer her power to a man for their validation, for their interest, for their whatever that is for her. There's like something deeper going on with her around her relationship to like men and validation and attention. And I think her and Raquel could go to some like group therapy together and like have some mirrors to look at in each other, which might be a helpful vantage point for them each to have. And I think that trip did kind of like symbolize like him being like, I want to take away some of your financial power and have you depend on me in this way. But it just seemed like he I didn't get the sense that he, like, abused it in that situation. Well, I think the trip was actually really good for them in their relationship because it sounded like she was saying he was taking her to like Michelin star restaurants and traveling a certain way and she didn't like that, which I mean, good for her. I guess that's her preference. And so and he kind of agreed it sounded like whatever happened on this trip that they realized they were just like not compatible in the way that they like to travel or live or their lifestyle. So I think Shep was doing a level of financial control and there was certainly some weird stuff going on. But also I think Taylor needed to be in that position to see like essentially if you marry up, this is what your life is going to be like. You're probably not going to work. You're going to stay home with the kids and he's going to support your lifestyle and he's going to control you because that's the way he is. And he's going to expect you to play a certain role as his like wife, though I don't even think it was never going to get that far, but it was never going to get that far. It was great. It got that. I don't think Shep is a marrying kind at all and I don't even he should get married if he's not right. Like I just don't like. I think if you don't want to get married, you shouldn't. No. And I don't know why everyone pushes this on him. I would say his most evolved self out of his Peter Pan syndrome, which to be frank, I don't see happening for him. But if he was, I would see him being with a very strong, independent, successful woman his own age who didn't want to have children, who wanted to travel. But I don't see him being monogamous. I don't think being in an open marriage would deal with him because you see how he's interact. He would because he would do that intellectualizing and that like dismissive and that like, I'm better than you. Everyone's a philistine compared to me. Like he'd do that to an a woman who is confident in herself and has a strong sense of like where they are in the world isn't going to put up with that. And I think any like real woman is going to look at chap and be like, No, thank you. Like a woman who like has an established sense of self. I think she looks at that and is like, that's a project I don't want to take on. But my question is do you see with him putting all of his effort in all of his therapy? And let's go back to the last reunion where he basically had an intervention from everyone that he needed to stop drinking because he blacked out at Bravocon and was crazy. Do you see any capacity at his age to fix any of these problems? I think we always have capacity for change. I don't think he has the motivation. So he went to Costa Rica after that intervention at the reunion and posted this like very emotional post about his journaling and his work and his yoga. And it felt very much like when you said earlier that he had done yoga for one time and then was thought he was fixed. It kind of feels like that. So going into this new season, I'm really curious to see if there's been like any evolution. And I have to say, I really love that Craig is holding a strong boundary with him because Shepp really has a drinking problem. I think we always saw that. But last reunion it was like he shouldn't even be around a drop of alcohol because that was like scary. But he's I don't know that he has the motivation. And I guess, like, once we get to the last question, I'll I'll say more about it, but it feels like the show also is going to enable this behavior because it's part of like the show success, right? Him being this like Peter Pan boy who drinks too much and engages in impulsive behavior becomes part of like what we were all drawn to in the show. And like, maybe we're the problem for sure. We're always a problem. So getting into our next fake boy that Shep brings on the show to be his wingman because he thinks Craig is not a good wingman. Which fair is Austin. The same way you were tricked by Sandoval. I was tricked by Austin. That first season that I was in, Austin came on. I was like, Oh, my God, look, it's like a better ship. It's like a like this is like who Shep could be if he was, like, a good guy. If he was, like, a mature guy. He fooled me, too. And he also goes by the nickname Muppet Mouth in our home or the Honda Civic of Male Attractiveness. Yeah, I well, this is the question I have for you is it that he tricked us or is it that he got worse? Because a part of me feels like he was okay that first season. And I almost feel like the show made him worse. The show. Okay. You may be right in that the show gave him a lot of opportunity to move into one part of himself. But he is responsible for that, of course. So, like, if he were not on the show, would he maybe like be married to somebody with children and living like a different life? I don't know. Like, I don't actually know that. I do think the show probably gave him I don't know. He's like a tall guy. He was going to get girls either way. Like, I feel like girls are kind of simple in that way. Or at least like, I'm sorry, in my experience of a lot of girls. Like they're like they can look past bad behavior for hire and like, I don't get that, but like, I know a lot of women who are that way. And so I feel like he was always going to have an easy time moving through Charleston as like a Peter Pan with even without the show. Yeah. Do I think the show probably made it worse? Sure. Like, sure. I think the show gave him a lot more opportunity to for that behavior to be praised and rewarded. In ways that it wouldn't have been if he wasn't on the show. He would have had to deal with a lot more losses, which maybe would have led to more like accountability. But yeah, so Austin comes on the show. He's Shep's friend. He kind of seems like this good guy. His first season he's dating. He starts to date Chelsea, who Shep is also after. And with Chelsea, he kind of opens up about his family circumstances in which, like his older sister died when he was seven. During a family trip, she, like, fell off of a cliff of some kind in Chimney Rock State Park with him. Like he was there. He witnessed the death. Yeah. And then he also had to witness, like, the effects of this on his family. Right? Like he talked about how his mom was in a really dark place. And I get the sense that maybe he had to do a lot to, like, soothe her and be like, play this this role of, you know, I don't they don't get into too much details. I make. You know, I'm drawing a lot of like assumptions of what I know that grief can do to people and especially the grief of a child. Like I imagine that was really hard on their marriage. I imagine they may be felt some tension between them and that Austin kind of had to play this role of comforter to mom and. And Dad, maybe. And Dad. Yeah, maybe both. But like, this is a deep childhood trauma and it makes sense that that sort of thing would impact his like, attachment and security and desire to like, have commitment with women. So it kind of comes on he's dating Chelsea, he opens up to her about this trauma. And I think we're all just like, Oh, my God, a sensitive guy who's telling us about his traumas like we are. All of us women are so easily fooled. Or me as a woman, I am easily fooled. Well, one thing I want to say about his family, which feels different than Shep, is when we have seen them They do seem to hold Austin accountable in a different way. Not that it makes any kind of difference, but I agree that that is a deep childhood wound. I think when he was going to therapy last season and he was trying to go back and forth with Olivia, I used to say about that, Oh while I'm jumping forward, I realize, but I really understand where it comes from and feel at times that it could be fixable. Whereas like with Shep, I'm like, I don't even. There's so many layers to why you're an asshole. I can't even get into all of it with Austin. I'm like, You just have this really deep childhood wound that I feel like I think there's more motivation for Austin to change. But it's interesting because when he first comes in, Shep says, I can't remember exactly how it comes up, but he talks about how he gets intimidated by Austin with women because he's more of a killer. Like he's like, there's something that Shep is noticing in Austin's ability to, get women's attention. And so that tells me that, like, there is a part of this in him from day one and he is kind of putting on a nice guy act that first season and like it does feel like there is. And then immediately the next season he's with Madison doing all that craziness. So it's like I truly believe there's a little bit of an act that went on that first season. I think the one time I really felt like I saw Austin was on Summer House and how he played Cierra and Lindsey in the span of 48 hours. But that was sick. That was calculated and sick. So calculated and so sick. That's when I was like, That's the real Austin. I don't think we see that often on Southern Charm. Mm hmm. And on Winter House, I think on Winter House, he got passes to. I mean, even the way he talked about how Lindsey at Kyle and Amanda's wedding was in his bedroom trying to have sex with him and then got with Carter, like, why do you have to bring that up even? Mm hmm. Yeah. There's something like icky about him. I don't know. Like, I feel like that first season was an act, and then slowly it's unraveled, and we've seen the real him show up. Yeah. I mean, we could fast forward and go to, like, all the Olivia and Taylor stuff, which I think is like really where we see the peak of. Yeah. And I think his therapy sessions are really interesting. I remember well, one I watched, I think I only rewatched one of them that I can remember. He was like talking about after him and Olivia had broken up and Olivia's brother had passed away. He was like talking to the therapist about like wanting to be there for her and, like, feeling like he is someone who could understand because of his loss and like, the therapist is really validating and does try to talk to him about how he seems to like get to a certain point with women. And then once he starts to feel he needs to be vulnerable, that's when he, like, ices them out or does something to like sabotage the relationship. And I felt like that was pretty like a stew. Like, yeah, like that feels right. But then she kind of, like, cosigned him saying, like, well, I just need to be there for her right now. And that felt like to me a place where she could hold him accountable. Accountable around like, well, is that for her or is that for you? Like, and it feels like with men, women have a hard time being like you're coming from an egotistical and narcissistic place. And there's like, I don't think you want to be there to comfort her around her loss of her brother, I think. Do you see this as an opening to be in her life without needing to, commit to anything and we can just like trauma bond and then I can, like, kind of get what I want from this situation without having to like, give a lot. And it really felt like the therapist was like, yeah, you're right. You do need to just like I said, what this is like, this is a place to be like, you're so close, you're so close to accountability. And yet I'm going to like I'm another person who's just going to, cosign that. You don't need to actually reflect on how you only care about your own needs. I mean, I saw that as so manipulative. And as someone who's lost a sibling as well at a young age, it really triggered a lot in me and upset me because him bringing her food and telling, talking to her about his experience was great. You could end it there, but you didn't. You invite her over to watch a movie and she takes her bra off and you're texting her and then you're you're telling her that she's messing with your head by texting you after. That was classic what I saw on Summerhouse playing Lindsay and Ciara against each other that was so manipulative. He was doing the same thing with Taylor and Olivia, playing them against each other and creating like a drama triangle. And to me, it was it was actually really twisted and sick and it really made me not really like his therapist either to you. Instead, I was like, What are you doing in there? Yeah. And you know, obviously the whole sessions edited like like you would explain. So we don't actually know the editors choices of like what they're showing us. And if she did, maybe like there was a longer conversation there where she did challenge him, but in general, like it did feel like she was kind of like cosigning this this behavior, this manipulative behavior in a way that it feels like this is the one space where you could really challenge this, where this could be like, hey, where how does she benefit from this? And it's not about you or her. Yeah, it was not about her. And I really applaud Olivia for on those trips they were on standing up to him and really calling him out. Unfortunately, she's not going to be back, but I actually think that's good for her. She recently got engaged, seems like a great guy. And she these people get in these toxic relationships with Austin and they cannot escape. So I think she loves it. I think there's a part of him that really like loves the drama of it all. Like I think he likes like I think with that whole Taylor thing, like I think he really loved the, like, drama because it reminded me of the Lindsay Sierra thing where it was like he was trying to create something here. Like there's a lot of energy going into trying to create conflict between women. And I wonder what that's about for him, because it seems like he has like this good relationship with his mom. You know, it makes me wonder after his sister's death, like, how much he had to do, like acting and deflecting to get them to feel good. And how that's like now become like almost a manipulative tactic in relationships of like, ooh, this is like my role now is to like create dramas or interesting things. Otherwise I have no value because I can totally see why the death of his sister would make him not want to get close with women especially, but in general anyone because he can lose them at any time. And that trauma. Not only that, the idea of like getting married and I think the therapist says this and that and so I won't pretend like I'm saying it myself. She was like, You're probably really deeply afraid of like eventually getting married and having kids. And the fact that you could, like, lose that child and that's like, must be something that, lives in your body as a trauma. So yeah, I guess we give her credit for that, though. Still like a little on the head, like, come on, we could all we could come to that. Oh yeah. Sometimes I don't know. With these men, you know, I've had an ex who wanted therapy too, with the therapist, I felt like was probably really validating and like his mother. And sometimes I'm like, I don't know that these men should go to, you know, women who sort of coddle them for therapy. Like, I feel like they almost maybe they need a man. Well, it's also hard because you're only getting like as a therapist, you can only work with what you're being given. And if you're working with someone you're giving, you're getting their side of their experience. And their experience tends to be that they're the victim. Like, right? Like, unless you are someone who is really adept at self-reflection, you're going to assume things are happening to you and that it's not your fault. As a therapist, though, how do you balance like, let's just say male clients, like male clients who come to you and they need, you know, validation for their feelings because they probably don't express them ever. And it's very hard for that. But at the same time, their actions are very manipulative or fuck boyish or how do you how do you balance like validating their feelings and making them feel safe while at the same time sort of being like, you're kind of a fucked up dude? Well, I think it's that. Exactly. It's like I can validate the way you feel. Like we can talk about your feelings and validate your feelings to the day is like, you know, new, like how we could do that every session. But if you're if we're going to start talking about behavior, then we have to look at where the feelings that led to the behavior may be valid, but that doesn't mean that the behavior is valid. And so you want to break down the separation of the two, like you're allowed to feel what you feel. Does that mean your feelings are true? Know feelings are not facts. They tend to often be loaded with lots of distortions. And so someone like Austin, I may talk about how like valid it is that he's fearing attachment and that he's fearing commitment and like how scary that must be, and try to get him to really talk about that fear and open up around it. And then I may, like I said, if he's talking about someone like Olivia and her having this loss and I validate how activating that must be and how much that's bringing up stuff for him. But I'd also want to challenge, like you engaging with her. I don't want you to kid yourself that that's about her. I'd want him to really reflect and like that becomes about you and fulfilling something in your ego to try to avoid the emotional wounds, because that's what he's doing in that. Right? Like, I think he really was having a trauma response to her loss, but instead of really dealing with his feelings, what he's doing is going into that same, like, drama behavior and getting attention behavior to deflect from it. And I do. Yeah, I'm very confused with I understand the attachment part of the trauma. I am a little confused on the drama, like pitting women against each other. That almost feels like to me going back to the sharp insecurity. Like he needs that validation by having women fight over him because he's constantly creating that, you know, like even in the Winter House when he had broken up with Ciara, he tries to remember, bring Olivia into the house and then Ciara shuts him down. She Ciara is a bit of a queen of boundaries, although Austin definitely had her wrapped around his finger for a second there. But even in that circumstance, like you already played this out last season, like he doesn't learn anything. Apparently he has a girlfriend now, though. So this season might be, I don't know. Interesting. Yeah, I wish I could understand more. I mean, I have some, like theories of where I think those, like, drama triangles come in for him, especially around women. I think part of it is a way for him to avoid closeness. A part of it is a way for him to, like, deflect from his own behavior by like having this distraction of drama. Right? Like, I can't be held accountable if there's just all this drama going on. And you saw that with the whole Lindsay of it. All right. Like there was like a we're completely ignoring Austin's role in this because now we're focused because these are the two people here. We're focused on what's happening between them. And to get into another fuck boy from Southern Charm. You know J.T., I am hesitancy short KING Because I don't think he's a king in any way. But when he comes on the show, you know, his whole thing is I'm all out my good moments. Yeah, he did have some good moments of calling out Austin. They didn't always help, but. And I think the thing that didn't hit, which we liked him the first season and why he's already said he he's shot the second season and then said he quit and he's not even going to do like interviews which really screws up production. So something major must have happened. But I think he didn't do it out of the pureness of his heart either. It's almost the same thing with Austin and the trying to get close to Olivia after her brother died, like he was doing it because he wanted to get with Taylor and he wanted to position himself as the nice guy. And you're not the nice guy when you're being the nice guy just to trick a girl into dating you. Right. Right. Yeah, I think I think him and Austin are very similar in that way where he does kind of, like, have this, like, nice guy persona that he can put on to get women to see him one way, which then I think gives him a lot of power than to start the drama trade triangles, because it's sort of like surprising when it turns into this like big thing. And also what I found interesting about Taylor's journey, because you mentioned this as well, like after she breaks up with Shap, she kind of goes on this spree. I was going to say like a a slut spree, but that seems way to judgment. But, you know, she goes, well, I think there's an intentional revenge part of it. Right. Like there is an attention seeking part of it where it's not about her, like sowing her sexual oats and like allowing herself sexual liberty because that I'm like, go girl. But there is intentional, like positioning herself to these people who are close to Shep in order for it to get back to him and to make him feel a certain way. And I think that's the part we don't respect about it, where it felt, you know, I know Charleston, they keep saying it's a small town, but there's got to be men that are at least not on the show, so that if you are doing sexual things with them, it's not going to look away. And what's ironic to me is like Shep never is hurt by this behavior, which she's almost doing exactly what he accused Madison of doing with Austin. Right. But when Madison was doing it, I never felt she was doing it necessarily to get back to us. I feel like Madison likes to have sex and enjoy. I think she what she was doing like sewing her sexual oats. She was empowered. She was like, okay, if he's going to go do what he wants, then I'm going to go do what I want. Right. Like we are free to do what we want. It's not about me making him feel bad. It's about me living my life where I felt very calculated for Taylor. Yeah. And the fact that Shep is so hard on Madison, who's not even doing it to him, she's doing it to Austin, his friend. But he's on her because he's scared of her. And he feels a way about empowered women who don't need to rely on men to feel good about themselves. And even after their breakup, I think Shep is very much like taking care of Taylor. Like he gets her that job. I think he helps her get her a dog, like he's setting her up and they're still like they're still like hooking up, too, I think. I think there's still, like, a sexual nature to their relationship. There's still an intimate, emotional part to their relationship that he feeds into. So let's go into our final boy of of the series, which will be Craig. Yeah, final Peter Pan. Although I would never say that Craig was fully a fake boy. He was always kind of like a bit of a romantic. Even when he was, he was like the only guy who really liked Kathryn, and then it was the only guy who never got with Kathryn. I actually feel like Craig is that he's different from all the others, but I think that he wanted to be like, that's what I understood. And Shep does a really interesting breakdown of Craig that I actually think is like spot on that he like comes from this family of jocks and like dudes and like there's this expectation of being a certain way. And so he kind of tried to take footsteps to follow that and be that way. But really, he's kind of like a sensitive artist. And what he does or what it feels like he does is this like overcompensation to be like a guy's guy and be like a cool dude and be this like. And to be a Peter Pan, right? Like, I don't even think he is a Peter Pan. I think he thought he needed to be. And so, like, started to play those roles as a way to like disown his creative, sensitive parts. And I think through the series, I think what's been an interesting and beautiful transition for for Craig is like he got praised for his career, right? Like he made these pillows and people loved it. People loved that he sewed and, you know, had these sensitivities, people like that he is willing to commit and be serious about relationships And I think the more he got praise and positive feedback for being that guy, the more he could kind of like work to disown the parts that wanted to be the party boy, that wanted to be the like guys guy and kind of figure out who he really is. I think we still see moments where he seems deeply conflicted around it, where he has a hard time, like with Austin of like holding Austin accountable. And I think he has a hard time with Shepard at times, but we're seeing more and more of that. And I think Paige is really help to that. Like having a non-Southern girl, I think is probably really helpful because she is not entrenched in this culture of like male enabling I have to give him some credit too, because before he even got some of that praise, he was very committed to his. So like I remember when Naomi was yelling at him and he's like, what's wrong with my so like, he really loved that creative side and he really didn't let even the person that he was hoping to spend the rest of his life with stop him from that. I think where he went wrong in a big chunk of the show and he was very open about it, which again, like, I think it's so important when you're in these reality shows to be vulnerable and be open because that does help you to evolve and help you to sort out your problems. Because his biggest problem was he was addicted to Adderall, like he had a full on, full blown addiction. And I think it's touched on a lot on the show, but I think in his book he really talks about it more. But yeah, he wrote a book, but I have not read it. But I will if we ever do a full Craig breakdown. It could be interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think Adderall addiction is something that isn't spoken about a lot, but I think a lot of people are like heavily addicted to Adderall. And he was deep in his addiction. I mean, they talk about on the reunions, like him being up for 48 hours, just being crazy, basically doing all kinds of things. And he was also really smart in that he knew he needed help. And that's another thing I think maybe men can struggle with more than women. But he he got this assistant to help him get through his like, emails and his mail and everyone is sort of making fun of him. And he was like, I just my anxiety is so high that to just get through this pile, it's too much for me. But if I have someone help me, then I can maintain. And that was life changing for Craig. I think if Craig tried to do it on his own, which is what QEP really like, pushed him to do, I don't think he could have. And I think you need a village in your life. And sometimes it's like, okay. And to me, I'm like, he had the money and the resources and he wanted to accomplish things in his life. If you're going to build a company the way he did, he couldn't have done that on his own. Hmm. And I think when you look at someone like Austin with his beer, if he hired some people he is beer would probably be a lot more successful. It's his beer. Say it might be success. What is it? I don't really know too much about it. Definitely not on, like, lover boy status. Right. And it's not like, you know, the pillow king. Well, and I think what turned me off to Craig at the very beginning and made it hard for me to feel connected, was he always felt so whiny, like there was something like a whiny boy about him in those earlier seasons where it felt like he was trying to be this like person who had different morals and like stood up for what was right and not like, you know, it seemed like he was trying to be like, well, this is the right thing. It doesn't matter, like who I'm aligned with, like this is what's right. But he would do it in this kind of whiny way because I don't know that he felt like the confidence in himself to fully like stand on it. And we saw that because, like, he would kind of like waver in, you know, again, like not holding sharp, totally accountable. I mean, Sharp was terrible to him. He treated him so belittling Li and he continued to like kind of allow it. And I think it made it hard to like feel this connection with Craig. And I think slowly as he felt more connected to like that creative and sensitive part of himself, it felt less whiny and felt more like, okay, this is just like his voice now, right? Like and it's still like a little whiny, right? Like, I think Craig just kind of has, like, the baby voice he does with Paige. Really? Like, ix me did not notice, like, oh, my God, I do need to go back and listen. It really likes me, but I think that's a little bit part of who he is because again, I think he is like a little more sensitive and like he is a little bit more emotional. And I do think he, like, feels this like, when he's with Paige, he feels this, like, attachment and love and it puts him into this, like, baby, like, place of feeling warm and cuddly. And so then he like, does that voice that, ah, I don't know if I can get past it. We're like somewhat like Naomi. I think when he would do it with her, she was just like, no, like, I know. Like, I don't like. I want a man. Like, I want a man man who isn't sensitive, who isn't creative, who works and kind of like good almost similar to like I feel like Lindsay this season where like yes, Karl was asking her to be soft, but I also like think she did not like his softness. And I think there are women who have a hard time with men's softness and vulnerability. And that's a good case of like Craig really did kind of need to find the right woman, I would say, because he's at his best when his male and feminine energy is aligned and accepted because he has very strong and beautiful feminine energy, like the fact that he paints one of his nails and he's like, I do just like kind of like my nail painted, but it's also for a charity. And then he's been posting about sewing done South does a lot of work with, you know, hiring disabled workers. And he was doing a whole campaign about that. And I'm like the charitable side. Like he gets me on so many levels. But when you talk about the whining is what I wanted to bring up. So the trailer for Southern Charm came out and it seems like it's a lot of people against Craig because Craig is grown up now and the Peter Pans are rebelling. And then Paige has a great line where she's like, They're going to blame it on me, but it's not actually about me. And Craig was doing a like Ask Me Anything Instagram and somebody asked like, How did you change your life or something? And he said, I changed my mindset to start thinking everything in my life is my fault. And I thought that was so. Smart and interesting because essentially, yes, outside things happen to us. Right. But it is how we take them and how we react to them. That's right. We're responsible for ourselves and our behavior. And I think fault is like the word maybe that you're reacting to, because I think what he means is everything in my life is my responsibility. And I think that's really true. Like, yes, things are going to happen to us, but we're responsible for how we respond and what we do with that and how we decide to move forward. And we can decide to either blame the outside for our circumstances or we can take that accountability. And yeah, I mean, the word is interchangeable, but there is something very strong about saying faults. Because I do think men can deflect. I mean, you look at Sharp, Bright. If Shep woke up the shop's fault. Yeah, everything was Shep's fault. Like, he would essentially have to be a different person, right? I mean, this would never happen, Shep, but, you know, so there was something very strong about him saying fault versus responsibility, though, if responsibility is easier for you to handle as a person. But really, I think it was a good exercise. I was like, if I could wake up every day and say, Today, everything in my life is my responsibility or faults. Whichever word more resonates with you. It would change your life because you would feel more empowered. And I am very attracted to people in general who are in the driver's seat of their life and they're driving their car. I am very turned off by people who are in the passenger seat and the back seat. Some people are in the trunk. Some people aren't even in a car. They're just floating around. And Craig really went from a backseat role to a front seat role. And we kind of saw that evolution, which is really satisfying for reality TV. And I'm really interested in this new season to see how the Peter Pans like revolts against and I think was it a couple of seasons ago or last season when he had the gala for showing down south and lava and some other people were like, those are the real people that like Ron Craig's company. And it was just so demeaning. And it was like, even if that's the case, like Craig is. But, but that's like the perfect example because I think Cam is also an example of this. I think they all kind of fit in it into like women who are rejecting of male sensitivity and like unconsciously don't realize that they are contributing to like patriarchal values because I don't think Levi's intention is that. But I do think or Lindsay is, you know, like, or Cam's but I think there is something unconscious happening in them that rejects male sensitivity and male softness and expects men to behave in a certain way. And when they don't, they don't see them as valuable and unconsciously that like feeds into patriarchy. Totally. Because I don't see that level. If if Madison had some company selling, I don't know, workout stuff or whatever, you know, her various brands and she was just the face and there was a male CEO running everything behind the scenes like level wouldn't care, liver wouldn't say anything. There's definitely an element to me of the fact that he's a man and he's not really the CEO running the company that like irks her. And it's like, Who the hell cares? But this is how Craig has been treated from day one, right? Like he's always kind of been treated as less than. And like I think people initially thought that was because he didn't come from as much privilege. But I actually think it's more deeper in that a lot of people see he is more sensitive, vulnerable and soft. And so there is this like automatic rejection or targeting of him. What is your take on the constant page and Craig are broken up rumors. I think people are uncomfortable with a relationship that's different than what they know. And so this idea that they're having this relationship where they're haven't decided to get engaged or move in together or what city they're going to live in. I think people are really uncomfortable with the idea that like things don't have to look exactly like. You think they should lock. And I feel like on pages and I get why she should be the one in some ways to set the pace of their relationship. And I think that's valid. I mean, Craig is older than her, but at the same time, like she's the one with the ticking clock. She's much younger than him. She's got a huge, very successful career right now. So I and we're putting a lot of assumptions. I think they often use that as a storyline that like, will they won't they get engaged? What are they going to do? But I kind of have the sense that, like, they're both fine with how it is. I do in a sense. I do think Craig wants some more, but I think he's willing to accept I think he wants a family and he wants to get married. And like you said, he's a little older, but I don't know. I think he's willing to like wait for her and when she's ready. I did kind of feel in that conversation at summer house where she was like, I would never let him pay for part of the apartment. Or I. I understood the rationale, although I felt like it came from a place of, like, reacting to a trauma that she had in a past relationship and not what was actually happening in her current relationship. But I also feel like and women can have their own financial independence. I don't really think that, you know, it depends on the relationship and the person and a lot of things. But I think Craig is trying to be like, can we share something? And I do think in some sense that sharing something begins, you know, the process of working out what really being in a relationship is, which is compromising and, you know, negotiating and having hard conversations. And their current setup doesn't really allow for that. So sometimes I'm like disagree with that. I think they they are like even though they're not like financially entertained gold, they're having to constantly navigate like where we're spending time, where we're doing things. And those are like hard conversations to have and they're having to constantly be confronting the barrage of like the public's opinion of like what they should and shouldn't be doing. And I imagine they're having those conversations all the time. There was something so weird last season where she didn't go on that trip and then he didn't tell her to leave. Like what? What was. Yeah, we didn't get the full story of that. Something was going on behind the scenes. But I do wish she would like engage maybe more and Southern charm. I mean, they're they're definitely getting the best of both worlds by both of them, only half being on each other's shows. But I mean, they're playing it right. And, you know, like if you look at Hannah, you know, her Gigli squad partner, she seems to have, you know, sort of an unconventional, quote unquote, marriage to in the sense that they don't necessarily live together all the time. And that works for her. So what? If you're happy, do whatever you want. All right. So let's get into our final questions. Our fuck, boys. Good for a reality TV. They are a lesson to us. Boy, mom, mother's in love. I love that. Because women need to stop. We don't want to do an announcement, right? Well, no, we should. We should. Because then now know who is my real friends and family who actually listens to our podcast. So Jenny has a big announcement for everyone. Oh, I am also going to be. Oh, my God. To big. Right. Oh, boy. Bob, I mean, Alibaba's boy, too. I think this is really important watching and reflecting for Jenny as she takes the journey, as she was very little boy. Moments of the strong consequences of how we treat our boys. My boy is going to be in charge of his passport for sure. And he's going to open the door for me. Yeah. And if you're if I haven't told you and you're my real friend and family member, now, I'll know for sure. So, yeah, I mean, I was going to be a little bit more rageful towards men, but now I have to be a little bit more understanding. I think they're good for reality TV also, because I think girls need to stop dating them. Well, I think well, I do think as women, it's a self-reflection for us of like where it is also we need to be accountable for holding men accountable to to some extent. I think we all live with some form of unconscious misogyny just because I think it's taught to us. And I think shows like this really show where like even if you are a strong woman, you can play into that dynamic and that struggle without realizing. Definitely. I think anyone who's moved in with a guy knows that you unconsciously I mean, you tell me if you felt differently. But the two men I've lived with, I feel like you often unconsciously end up doing more of the dishes are doing, the laundry are doing. And to me, if you live with a Craig, my man does all the dishes. He's actually got like eggs on his hands from doing too many dishes. I applaud that. Yeah. I mean, I would say my now husband does. We very much separate the tasks into what each other is good at. But I often have to check myself and, you know, be like, I don't I'm not good at cooking and I don't like cooking. So like, why am I the one in charge of this? Unfortunately, my husband is also not good at cooking and doesn't like cooking. We have a similar problem over here. Yeah. Neither of us are cooks. So is reality TV good for fake boys? So, I mean, if we take the example of Craig, I would say yes. But you don't know if Craig is a fake boy. I'm kind of questioning why we even put him here. I don't I don't actually think he is. I think that reality TV could go two ways. And I think this is something we're kind of navigating for everyone we talk about of like it is a huge opportunity to look back and reflect on the consequences and the implications of your behavior on other people. Or it can be a reward, right? Or you get rewarded rightly, because a lot of again, these men are rewarded for this behavior. It's seen as like exciting and interesting and driving storyline. And, you know, if all of them became as grown as Craig, would the show be interesting. We are the problem, the viewers. We are the problem. I do find it interesting that both Shep and Austin have seeked out therapy. Shep is doing an off camera, but he's talked about it the last couple seasons. Austin has did it on camera and we obviously felt mixed reviews on that. But so I want to give them a chance. But yeah, we'll have to see what happens this season, I guess. I mean, Austin, I think has more of a chance to evolve than Chip, but I'm losing hope of Muppet mouth evolve. I actually feel the opposite. I feel like Shep maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because he hit such a rock bottom last season or I feel like Shep has. I don't know. I don't know. I know he cried last season. That felt like a big deal when Shep was crying. And then we see JT and Vernita getting together, which I could only imagine was a planned story. Okay, we'll see how it plays out. Yeah. So, okay, going back to our original question, like, does Peter Pan syndrome actually hurt men? And I think it hurts society. I think it hurts. It hurts women. It's definitely. Creates lots of pain for women. I think, again, I think there is going to be losses they experience in their lives. But I also like, you know, from my therapeutic lens, there will be losses they experience in order to, like, mature and grow up and take responsibility. one of the things that I found really interesting before I decided to block out all politics for a while, I used to listen to The Daily on New York Times podcast, and they did one about younger women and men. And their reaction to the election is prior to the results, obviously, and the different ways that they were interpreting the candidates and just the election in general and like what it represented. And the young men in their early twenties were talking about how they felt that it was really hard to be a man or feel like a man. And the main ways that you can be a man or perceived as a man is to provide. And it's not necessarily have money. It's not to necessarily have a wife or I don't have a manly job. It was to provide and take care of somebody else. Ironic, especially as we get into this Peter Pan syndrome, because none of these men take care of even themselves, let alone other people. And I think, In the modern world, women are working equal even in man, not always making the same amount as men, but, you know, they're providing as well and they want that. And I think our general relationships are evolving so much that, you know, what men have to show up in relationships like is so different than in the past. They have to show up in an empathetic way. They have to show up in a way that they provide the same or equal to what, you know, a woman provides. And that doesn't necessarily mean money. That could also mean doing the dishes till you get eczema. So I think book boys represent a man that is unwilling to evolve and that is important to see in reality TV. Well, and I think, unfortunately, our society has slowly kind of created mechanisms that. Enable Peter Pan more than disable it like even just down to like dating apps allow for men to never have to worry about going out and finding a woman. And you literally have thousands and millions in your phone and the amount of women on there that are like, you know, hoping for relationships and they read that you're just like would be somewhat interested in marriage and were willing to like, see what that is. And meanwhile, half of those men have no interest in marriage. Like, I think that our society is like those little things, those mechanisms that we didn't realize were doing. So we're fostering fuck boys to continue on and have even an even easier time doing so. And how many of Shep's victims are from Raya? Yeah, I think he was on Raya even before him and Taylor broke up. But wasn't that part of the scandal? Yes. But, yeah, Patricia had said something which, you know, we kind of lightly touched on. We don't know which side of the picture she falls on, but she did say something. There was some Q&A where someone was asking her, like, what should young women do to marry, you know, a man? And she was like, that's the wrong question. Like, women should follow their passions and pursuits and become an intelligent person that makes them happy, that fulfills the things they want in life. And then the right man will fit in with that or come because of that, and don't chase a man or whatever. And so I guess that's good advice for like girls who perpetually date like boys but also, you know, we have for years maybe date no. One and just like be on a sex strike like the for be movement. Yeah. I actually if I wasn't married would be in the for be. Maybe I'll be in it anyway for husbands. Well, we're having a child, so we're definitely. Yeah. You're not going have sex again, ever. On that note. The most important thing is, no matter what, we will be covering Bravo But we love getting all your requests. and keep it coming. And we love your fan mail and we hope we can distract you from the raging dumpster fire that will be the next few years. Thanks, guys.