Kyle Richards and her Sisters from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills

Join us as we delve into the multifaceted life of Kyle Richards from "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills." We'll explore how her recent clash with Dorit Kemsley over Kyle's communication with Dorit's estranged husband, PK, parallels past tensions with her own sisters. From her early days as a child star and the youngest sibling to navigating the seismic shift of her separation from longtime husband Mauricio Umansky, Kyle's journey is one of resilience and complexity. What's preventing her from showing vulnerability on the show? Tune in to uncover the layers of Kyle Richards' world.

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Chapters

• 3:13 Bravo Fan Fest
• 8:48 Intro to Kyle Richards
• 14:56 Sibling Order
• 18:40 Exploiting her sisters?
• 26:11 House of Hilton
• 30:38 Kyle and her alliances
• 38:25 Kyle's lack of vulnerability
• 46:31 Her childhood playing into it
• 52:26 Her marriage
• 57:30 Kyle's future on the show

Transcript

Hey, everyone, we're back. we have a guest today with us from our famous Dissenting Opinions episode. We are welcoming back TV producer Amy Rodin. Hello, everyone. Hi, Amy. We're so happy to have you. It's good to see you guys. I'm happy to be back. I feel like a lot has been going on in the Bravo's Sphere on TV, off TV. There's lots to talk about, but especially excited to talk today about what we're diving into. Yeah. I want to shout out Amy. On that opinion episode of Dissenting Opinions, we talked about Vanderpump Rules and how it should be canceled. I don't want to say we like manifested that, but we did spill out pretty clearly all the issues. And then I think Amy suggested like, let's just start anew and that is what they're doing. So kudos to you. They were listening to you, Amy. They were listening. Always, always. But yeah, wild, definitely wild changes. I feel like happening at Bravo with these huge shows that we definitely wouldn't have expected maybe a couple of years ago. But I think it's great. I think A lot of things are due for a refresh, so whatever that looks like for the PR, I think it's a good thing. we have Southern hospitality taking its place in the most beautiful way this season. So you don't even need it anymore. It was. It was stale. Yeah. It's like once you let those shows breathe a little bit like Southern hospitality, Salt Lake City, like give it like two seasons, three seasons to like, just get those kinks out. And then they become the magical shows that we watch for different seasons. I didn't really like the first season and now I'm like obsessed with it. So it's like, I like reality TV especially. Like these ensemble shows are almost like character scripted shows like Schitt's Creek. It took me a season to like get into it because you, like, love the characters and then you start liking it. I don't know. But one thing before we get into our main topic I wanted to briefly touch on is Amy was recently a producer at Bravo's Fan Fest in Miami. I guess what can you tell us about that experience? Who did you love meeting? What advice do you have for anyone who wants to go to like a bravocon or anything like that? Yeah, absolutely. So I had a such a fun opportunity to produce Bravo Fan Fest in November. It was a one day extravaganza of 50 Bravo celebrities, tons of panels, events that were bars, that were installations like you could walk through, closets filled with like a Bronwyn Hart sweater and just really iconic like fashion from from all of the shows, jackasses, you know, cable knit sweater, like just really fun, iconic stuff like that. It was a super long day, I think, for all the guests, I think. Our first panel started at like 9 a.m. so people were filtering in super early, thousands of people coming there. And it just was an amazing day. I think Miami was the perfect location for it. We were in the Ice Palace, which is just a great building and everything could be in one place. So if you wanted to watch a panel on, you know, the single single Bravo Labs on the main stage, then go for like a less formal kind of panel on a side stage. You could kind of come in and out throughout the day. So it was so fun to just as a producer, to watch the magic and to make the magic of pulling it all together, but to see the fans just having such a fun experience. I mean, people were laughing and dancing and just walking around all day and they'd get so excited. I was producing, especially this one stage where we had 11 panels and every like all of the labs who are there were on my stage at one point. We started the day with all of the Miami Housewives and and the brand new Miami housewife, Stephanie. We announced it on our stage, the first panel of the day. So that was like definitely a wild way to start the day. It was 11 people on a stage that was like less than 11 feet, but we got them on there and it was so exciting. we had great, great cast there. We had tons of people from Summer House. I think Jesse Solomon a lot hotter in person I was expecting. So that was fun. I was like, Whoa, he's like a male model. So that was a fun surprise. And yeah, all the ladies were so beautiful. I had Kate Chastain on my stage for a couple of panels and just like being able to see her work and, and, and work producing her was super fun because she's just, she's just such a rock star. And I think, you know, next year I know that there's kind of this like. What will Bravocon look like in the future? So Bravo fan fest was this sort of like in between because logistics wise, Bravo Bravocon is such a huge event. I mean, it's like, you know, three days it's been in Vegas and it's like a real convention. Like, if you're going for all three days, you are going to be walking, you're going to be running, you're going to be like trying to get you're going to be looking at your phone, like looking at what panels you want to be at. I think it's important to kind of like take a look at the schedules before you go to I knew like on online and on Facebook, on Reddit, there's tons of like groups of kind of like breaking down what the day and the days for Bravocon look like. And that's a super helpful resource, I think to like know if you really want to go see like, you know, a chef or someone from Southern Charm, you know, you want to know like when, when they're going to be on stage. And if you are dying to see Shap we have questions for you. Lots of questions and hopefully it's to ask them what the fuck is going on with you? Yeah, I'm just kidding. We have a great episode about the fake boys of Southern Charm, if you guys haven't listened yet. I'm really proud of you for getting that Bravo fan fest off the ground because that looked like such a massive undertaking. I watched all the panels on Instagram and it was super fun and I didn't have to leave my house. But I applaud you for doing that. Yes. Yeah. It must be so crazy to be producing like in live action. Like, you know, like everything's just, like, happening. And, yeah, the stakes feel almost like higher than, like, producing a show because the show, like, you can do more takes or there's more scenes, but with these panels, it's sort of like one and done you're not going to redo a panel. So that's got to be intense. It was a lot, a lot of work and it was a lot of weeks before Fan Fest in New York at the watch what happens live offices and like they have the best team the the production company embassy row is just like the best team that I worked with in such a long time. So, yeah. To pivot to the topic of today because I know we have a lot to get into. Know we have five pages of documents, so that could tell you how deep we're about to get. So I put this out on our Instagram if you don't follow us yet. I was told by a friend of mine, it's like, how do you not have more followers on Instagram? And I was like, I don't know, I'm going to work on it, but I know we have more listeners and followers, so we're at Unhinged on camera on Instagram. I sent out that we were going to do an episode on Kyle Richards from Beverly Hills, but specific. And the truth is, we can't just do Kyle because Kyle is almost irrelevant if we don't include her sisters. But so I put out that message and one of our followers, Rachel Clarke, who we love, sent a really like on par message that kind of summarizes everything we're getting in get into So I want to like open with this she wrote I really want you to examine Kyle's part that she plays in the sister dynamic and how it bleeds into her relationship with the ladies on the show. That will be the main topic today. She's so good at subtly playing the victim and acting like she's always the good guy that puts up with and takes care of everyone. This season, I'm totally seeing a different side of her because Dory is highlighting it. I think giving people the silent treatment as a form of punishment is super interesting in regards to Kyle and the sisters, because we've seen this play out so many times and it's interesting that she uses that form of punishment. Are people outside of her family? So lots of stuff there. Yeah, well. Yeah, I mean, where to begin? Oh, my gosh. I think when Bravo can get, like, a family to show us, we get to see so much interesting dynamic and we get so much history and it's so juicy and trying to, like, understand why that person behaves or those people behave in the way they behave. And you get so much more context to it than we do with these sort of like other women who we don't, especially women we don't even see their children or their husbands are like we just see them. And so like it's so rich that we get Kyle and her sis, both of her sisters. Then there's all this extended with, like, Paris Hilton, right? And again, I kind of go back to like where I started of like is would Kyle be interesting without all of that? I don't think so. Like, I think if we didn't have that context, we'd like a lot of the things that Rachel is sharing around how like she, you know, seems to be like the nice guy. She's often seen as like the rational one and like, is always kind of presented as, like, palatable of all the housewives. Like, she's really nice, she's really friendly. She's like, quote, unquote, down to earth if we, like, separate her from her intense, like, shopping addiction, which we can get into. But I think when we bring her sisters and that family dynamic into it, she becomes a more dynamic person. And we start to like understand how some of these behaviors that kind of seem to be on the surface like normal, are actually coming from deeper places of like trauma and manipulation and like survival mechanisms. I went to watch the first season with Kim because I didn't remember it as well and it actually was kind of scary how many things from first season was mirroring things happening now, which was like, you know, Mo was very much like happy wife, happy life like the same as he is now. I'm like, Wow. Mo It doesn't change at all, actually. And then she's very like, She's helping Kim, obviously. But Kim keeps being like, I actually don't really need your help. And this is kind of like hurting our relationship. And Kyle is doing this thing where she's very enabling towards her, as well as sort of putting her down. And actually the whole limo fight, which obviously culminates in this big reveal that Kyle has towards Kim, is very manipulative because throughout the whole season, Kim is like, you know, obviously struggling and we see that and there's not a lot being said. But Kyle keeps saying, like, if she keeps pushing me, if she keeps pushing me, I'm going to I'm going to reveal this thing or and I know some of that is in the producing like they back produce, you know, some of this stuff like they knew where it was heading. But even the limo fight, like Kim tries to leave and Kyle goes to their joint manager and says, like, don't let her leave and sort of almost traps her in that situation. And then she is actually lunging at Kim in the limo, which I thought was interesting because Dorit lunges at Kyle and everyone flipped out about that I mean, she barely lunged at her, but okay, yeah, I did lunges, like I didn't even clock it. And they're like, she lunged. I can't believe it. And I was like, Did she just kind of, like, leaned across the table? But I do what I love Amy to go through some of the back story on their bigger family order situation, because I know there's tons in that history, but I will say I know that the show for Beverly Hills Housewives was first developed as a show about Kyle, Kim and Kathy. I believe there was talk that Kathy pulled out, which is how it became Beverly Hills Housewives. And I believe they brought like Lisa Vanderpump in, and then that's when they brought in everybody else. But the original development deal was with the three of them to do a show. In my opinion, I think the early seasons at Beverly Hills are like some of the most perfect examples of what the show should be like. especially like that really like dirty stuff like Kyle and Cam and their story arc, the first season of like seeing like Kyle trying to be this sort of mother figure for her and him being a real like, I don't need you, but then does meet her and we're watching this kind of like ping pong back and forth, which like for myself, I'm the youngest of three siblings. So I think in a weird way I relate to Kyle sometimes, like, not in any way because my siblings are like. Way more put together than I will ever be. So I'm probably like the mess of the family. But there is something about Kyle being the youngest. I was thinking a lot about this, that like the first time that I had ever seen Kyle Richards was in some sort of like, you know, the fabulous life of or or it could have even been a true Hollywood story about her, not about Halloween, but about Paris Hilton. And it was like she, you know, just was doing like a sit down interview, talking about the lifestyle of a Paris. It was probably like, you know, 26. And I remember watching it when I was like in high school and being like, Who is this woman? She seems so cool and she seems like so well-adjusted. Like, you know, you had seen kind of the Kathy Hilton character, I think, in the public because of Perez. But this is at the time when, like, Paris was arrested and and Nicole Richie was arrested and Lindsay Lohan was dealing with all of her issues. And like, of course, Britney like the mid twenties for like our pop girls were like a wild ride. So and you only got to see it through tabloids, which was the best part of it. Yeah. Like you weren't like it wasn't like constant filtering of it through Instagram. So it was so exciting to like look at that like okay magazine and see like the headshots and the arrests. And so I think that was the super interesting thing about Kyle. The Richards Sisters and Housewives of Beverly Hills is, is this perfect balance in the early seasons of a world where we really don't get an inside view that often? living in Los Angeles I know that there are $30 million houses like 5 minutes up the road from me, but like, I don't know who lives there. I don't know, like, what their day to day looks like. like Bel Air has gates for a reason. All that being said is just to say that, like I what I love about Kyle is that she gave us the opportunity to really look into a world of like a specific segment of, like, Hollywood that we really don't have access to. Like her, one part of her family with with Kathy Hilton is like. A kind of crazy part of American history and royalty in a way. And then with Kim, it's like this. Really, really. Hollywood. Seventies, eighties. Child star trauma. Like really cheap Hollywood kind of law. And then with Kyle, she's this kind of, like, everyman, like in the middle of it, like even her long brown hair. Like, she looks different than other girls here. I've kind of always seen her as like the villain of the show, like she is actually the villain. And part of that for me is rooted in I wonder how much there is like an intentional exploitation of her family trauma in trying to bring her sisters onto the show. And even like you said, you're like, I want to thank Kyle for doing this. There is like this. This is Kyle's show. And so therefore, like, she is responsible for like what kind of shows up a little bit. And like Kim kind of coming in this first season, clearly before they even started filming in a very vulnerable place. Right. Like she's clearly unwell from season one. Like there's a lot emotionally going on. We learned there's a lot like substance abuse going on and over time we learn a little bit more about their like family history And a lot of that gives a context and helps us hold empathy for Kim and her journey. But it does feel like there is Kyle's coming off as this reasonable, rational one and yet. She's helping her sister, but not actually protecting her sister. And I think now I feel like very complicated with all the things that are going on with Kim, like her being on a psychiatric hold and like clearly in the very present going through some sort of mental emotional crisis like it does bring up like as a viewer, this like moral quandary of like how much am I responsible for that too, in enjoying watching their, you know, the exploitive nature of these of this families relationships. I think yeah. I think what both of you said brought up two different things for me. It's really interesting because we don't see Kathy for most of the show and then when she came on, it was pretty shocking to me. I was surprised. You know, her reason being I wanted to spend more time with they live in the same city. Why not steal the show to spend time with your family? I mean, that says a lot. But she got into traffic. But I will say, you know, it's interesting that first season, Kyle's really trying to help Kim. She's the whole season. She's trying to get into a new house. And Kim is struggling financially and Kyle is, you know, pushing her to get something more affordable because she has to pay for all of her kids in college. And yeah, I mean, what do we get in the most condescending way, like. And and she does a very similar thing to Kathy, and we're almost seeing her. She does it to Jerry as well, which I think is interesting about Rachel saying about how this like plays into her dynamic with the other women where she, like, makes fun of them in a way that's like, I'm laughing. I want you to think I'm laughing with you, but really, I'm laughing at you. Oh, yeah. She puts she puts Kim down a lot. Like throughout that whole season, they're trying to set her up with guys and she's like, Well, this is why you're single. I mean, there's some cutting, cutting remarks. I mean, Kyle thinks she's doing it out of a place of love, but it's really enabling. And that's why when I bring up Kathy and there's like a layer of how rich, I mean, because Kyle in those beginning seasons is like moderately rich now. She's like ridiculously rich because Bo has the agency. But like Kathy was ridiculously rich. She was married to Rick Hilton, you know, and had all this Hilton money. And it is kind of crazy to watch that dynamic of like this sister who kind of supported the family as a child star. Now she's struggling because of all, you know, divorces and not working and her addiction issues. It's almost like, why doesn't Kathy just buy her house and say like she I mean, I'm sure Kathy at this point owned like, I don't know, numerous homes like to just put her up in a house and whatever. So I think that dynamic of enabling and then the other piece I want to get into is something you just said, Sam, which is the, you know, a way that Kyle's been able to control the narrative since season one, control the narrative that she is the helping sister, that she is, you know, the person who's always a good friend. That's a big thing that's coming up with Tori right now. She's like, I'm a good friend and no one could tell me otherwise. And why is it this season and the conflict with to read the thing breaking it? Because for me it almost just feels like it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Like I've seen this repeated pattern now with her so many times that Tori is holding her own and doing a good job holding her accountable. But at the same time, it's kind of like I wouldn't feel so strongly if I hadn't seen this same pattern with three or four other people on the show. Right. And if we want to go back further in history, I m officially like a little bit of a Richard Hilton historian only because I did not read the House of Hilton, but I listen to a lot of podcast that broke it down. But a lot of like what I understand kind of is spelled out in this book is about like Big Kathy and who she was and how she was this extremely like over-the-top woman who had a lot of anger, who got a lot of volatility, who had a lot of aggression, who wanted her daughters to, like, be famous and live this life and marry rich men and installed in them, almost this idea of like like living a life that she had wanted for herself and failed at. And then the pressure went on them to like, live up to like her expectations and like be famous, be rich, be these certain things. Likely there was this dynamic where Kathy was like pitting them against each other for her affection, for her validation, for her approval. And I think we get this like very grief oriented, watered down version of Kathy from the girls where they idealize her because, you know, and I think that's often a grief response that people have where we want to you know, you don't say bad things about the dead. And I think one, it's it's problematic, like to really move through a grief process. We have to understand that the people we've lost are full people both good and bad, and have carried like lots of different experiences. But it's hard not to see that in their dynamic. This trauma didn't start at like home at like a young age and at the dynamic that big Kathy created between the three of them and what their relationship should be, and that it's not we're sisters supporting each other, that we are all like we are only valid if we're like doing something more than the other person or if we're seen as better or more valuable than the other sister. And that's really, really sad because we see that playing out in their dynamic now, right? Where it's like there is this like competitive nature between them. And I see especially like in Kyle kind of as like the baby of the family. Like I wonder, you know, how that like, like her needing to show to be hers but still like needing her sisters to be on it to like again, kind of validate her existence. But there is this feeling of like, I'm going to portray myself as being a little bit above them in these ways where I like put them down or make fun of them. But I do it in this way so that people don't see totally what I'm doing. And I imagine that was something she created at a very young age to get her mom's attention to like get her mom to approve of her as much as like if we think about Kim as being the breadwinner and the one who was like the child star and really got the like accolades and took care of the family financially I imagine there was so much competition between Kyle and Kim and Kathy just kind of like laughed, right? Like she married Rick at like she met him when she was like 15 or something and they got married when she was 20. Like, Kyle was a kid and Kathy's already gone, and there's like at least a ten year age difference between Kathy and Kyle, which is a very big age difference, especially when you don't have the same biological unit. So like Kathy had a different dad than Kim and Kyle, I think Kyle and Kathy had incredibly different childhoods. I think definitely Kathy probably had a tougher childhood with her mom that I. So just to go back a little bit, I also read how I read House of Hilton. Oh, you are so good. It's all yours. But I could not because I went back this weekend and tried to, like, go through and, like, you know, even just going through it. And I was like, there is so much stuff in here that, like, I almost, like, wish this should be a documentary. I mean, like, it's just so interesting and paint such a good story of the sixties and being a single parent and like having this kind of like, interesting, like Big Kathy really had like a very specific focus in life and drive and she told her daughters, like, marry rich man and have a lot of babies because and I don't like figure out there was like the only woman in the sixties, you know, saying that that was a real like way of going about the world. but I, I definitely think what you're saying, Sam, about like just their ages and different kind of like experiences at home. I think there's a lot of different stuff that I don't even know if because Kyle and Kathy, you know, being ten years apart when Kyle's six years old, filming her own projects, filming Halloween, being on like Little House on the Prairie and stuff, she probably spent more time with Kim than anyone else in her family or whoever was able to, like, bring her to sets or bring her to auditions. Like at that point, Kyle was probably in her kind of own little world, and Kathy at that point was, yeah. On, on becoming an adult and like diving into a whole different world and society, marrying into the whole, into the Hilton family. So yeah, such an interesting dynamic. It all comes from where they came from and from their mom. And that's that's big Kathy and boy, is she a really and there's a lot of history of her also like struggling with addiction. And so what we know is there is genetic like parts of addiction. And so it's not surprising that, you know, Kim, especially like as a middle child, if you just look at sibling dynamics and where you sit in the sibling order, place so much of a role in the role that you end up taking in the family, usually in eldest child is seen as the hero, the one who is like trustworthy, the mature one. And we see that with Kathy, right? She went married, a really rich man. she played that hero role and like probably pleased her mother so much right to like be living the life that basically her mom had set out for them. And then we see Kyle as the youngest. So she's like that mascot, the cute one, the one that, like, usually gets like a certain amount of attention for being the baby of the family in that way. And then often that middle child is like either the lost child or oftentimes the scapegoat a child. So the one who like problems tend to get like scapegoated onto. And I don't know how that played out when they're younger, but we see that so much playing out right now. even Kathie coming back to the show this season, which was pretty surprising. She said, I know Kyle's in a bad place breaking up with Mo, so that's why I came in to be there and help her. And it's like she's not really hoping this is in yet, but we'll see. But yeah, something else you said about the addiction, from that first season, Kyle is really talking about her addiction to shopping And it's just interesting how that's so downplayed compared to obviously. Well, because it's like a socially acceptable addiction, right? It's a sublimation. It's a way of turning like something that like. Right. Like addiction we think of as negative. But when you think about shopping, it's like, who? Who's that hurting? Especially if you're super rich. But like, it is clearly her buying things to fill something that feels unfulfilled. And the way she talks about it is in language of addiction. I felt like with that whole incident with Kathy, which in fairness was so frustrating because we didn't get it on camera, we really couldn't decipher the stories. Everyone had it different stories. It was all in the press. That whole argument was just a disaster, television wise, in my opinion. But aside from that, the way that Kyle sort of got everyone on her side to rally for her or to feel bad for her, but then when she realized it was ruining her relationship with Kathy, tried to like, you know, turn it around as if it was everyone else. Because she does like even in this incident with Jerry, she's very much like, I need to be the victim again. Even though clearly the text messages with the book is no defense. Just say, I don't want it. I'm sorry. I was cool with P.K. and now I see that things have turned right because she's misinterpreting that whole thing. She's saying that people are seeing those messages and thinking she's doing something like having an illicit affair. And like, that's not what people are upset about. Like what you're actually talking about has is less of the problem than the fact that like your supposedly good friend is getting divorced from that person and you're having these side conversations with him and not speaking to her. And if you're not in a good place with her, don't speak to either of them. It's just so interesting that it just feels like she has no tolerance for the idea that she could do something wrong And even if that wasn't your intention, you can still just, like, acknowledge that, like, oh, I see where that would hurt you. And I'm sorry. Like, she has to defend, she has to be the good guy. And it feels like, again, that's her role in the family as that mascot. Like, I'm the cute one. I'm the one who doesn't do anything wrong. And if you're saying I'm doing something wrong, I'm going to like, yeah, got into my victim complex and try to turn things around as best I can to make it seem like, no, actually, you guys and even she says to the other one, We're grown women, why are we doing this? And they're like, Excuse me? Like we signed up for a show and this is what we do on the show is we like act kind of hysterical, which is like a bigger thing. We can talk about Kyle and thinking she can like decide what and when to share them. I think what's so interesting this season is that we really, for the first time are seeing Kyle in a totally different life path than she's ever been on 14 seasons of a show like it. There is something about her relationship and her marriage and her family life that. was incredibly stable, I think in a way that we don't see on these shows very often if that's smoke and mirrors, producing, whatever it is. Whereas, you see, like, Kim, you know, has the child star trauma So I think that they were smart at the beginning to like, give Kyle that position of like, she's the sort of like everyman here, like the Greek chorus. It's kind of like like in Salt Lake City. It's like we have Heather Gay, a lot of the series. Like you have to have someone who, like the audience, feels a little bit more relatable, too, so that you're not just staring at people whose lives are like, so foreign from your own that it becomes unenjoyable. and she also surrounded herself by a lot of women. And I think in the early seasons you see this a lot too, when Kyle brings in other friends like my favorite personally, the morally corrupt Resnick always. But like she really they like when she has parties, Kyle has other people, they're surrounding her. And it kind of gives her that sense of like she has more of a community outside of this show. And then when, you know, it kind of like builds up this just idea that she is a reasonable protagonist and like the audience can trust her and believe her. And and I think what fans are seeing now we're in real time and kind of watching Kyle have to figure out how to present a hugely, drastically brand new life for herself as much as one can choose to have. When you're you're filming like a real kind of unscripted television show. I think we are actually witnessing a kind of unique experience of life. After ten years, someone's life has changed so drastically, and now we're watching them try to put the pieces together of who they are now and how they can share it. But like, I understand why fans are getting frustrated with Kyle now, especially after years and years of kind of seeing things she's done that were able to kind of like go through the, you know, like sneak through and now people are like. Oh, she's the villain because she's been doing this stuff all along, which. I don't think there are any villains or or saviors on these shows at all, like they're real people. But. But I do understand for sure where the fans are coming from. And if you look back and if you look at what happened with her and Lisa Vanderpump, you look at if you look at what she did to like the newbies in the couple first seasons like Brandy or like half of her current Carlton and like thinking like Carlton was like putting a curse on her through her computer Oh, my gosh. It's like there is a lot where I think you can go back and be like, Oh, it's something has not been right in the buttermilk all along. I do think that's right. I think the core issue with Kyle is so much of what her everyman persona is feels like a mass that she's created, like this perfect relationship with Mauricio. Like, no relationship is perfect. How in you know, even up until today, they've never fought. They've never had a fight. Like, even like they're divorcing and they've never had a fight. Or at least we've never seen them in any conflict. We've also never seen them speak about any emotions or be vulnerable in any deep way. Besides, I love you, sugar, and they're like little sweet names to each other, but we don't see any complex emotions in that marriage. If you can name me one, I'm happy to like, hear it. But I'm like, thinking through, like, our whole timeline of her. Like, there isn't, like, complicated emotions in that marriage. And like, to me, is that like authentically what the marriage is? Is that what we're being presented? Or is that part of like the way she has relationships is just a very like even you saying she has all these friends and she talked about it this season. I have like so many best friends and to me as like a real person in the world with like friends and best friends. And I don't have that many best friends because it is hard to have that deep and vulnerable of a relationship with a lot of people. Well, and like going to what the psychic said in our first season do when your kids get older, your husband will never emotionally fulfill you. And she was like, That will never be me IMO. And like, literally, that's where we are. All the kids are older I guess, but emotionally fulfill her. And when you say it like she sort of has these superficial relationships, like I think even with the Lisa Vanderpump conflict, which boiled my blood at the time only because I felt like a it was even Kyle's conflict to begin with. It was between her and Dorit and this dog, really, and which is a conflict that Kyle is best at, things that don't actually have anything to do with her and making it all about her. But regardless of that, like Lisa Vanderpump had lost her brother that season to suicide. So and I felt like that was very much like brushed under the rug. And it's like this was a deep time when, like, Lisa Vanderpump needed empathy and love and, like, not to talk about a dog And if Kyle was her real. Yeah. If Kyle was her real friend, like, I think she would know that and be able to wait in those pools. But also something you brought up is like I mean, that's essentially where she is with Mo, too, in a way. And I don't know, maybe her and Morgan are actually able to, like, have this emotional depth that she never has with MO. And that would be an interesting storyline if she would actually just talk about that instead of whether or not they're sleeping together or not. But To go back to Rachel's message, to throw out to both of you. How does that play into the silent treatment? Mm hmm. And because she has done this now with Kim, Kathy, Tori sat in like this is how she handles conflict. When she has, like, actual issues with someone in a friendship, she doesn't address them. She goes well. And it goes back to what I was saying about like, it's so much easier for her to be in conflict. That's about other people because you go back to the, you know, infamous Amsterdam dinner. She's able to sit there when Kim and Lisa are going at each other. But as soon as it's directed at her, like, why are you backing me? She's. Flailing and running out the door in hysterics and ran out the door. Yeah. My guess is from like a therapeutic standpoint and I don't, you know, obviously I'm doing a lot of hypothesizing because I don't really know this person. But that that is like something she learned at a young age as a way to, avoid accountability and responsibility. It's like when I don't like the way a conflict is going, I'm going to cut it off. And then when we come back together, we'll have to talk about that. Like we'll have to like I can say, I can kind of redirect the reason why I cut them off to have something to do with them. And therefore, we're deflecting from like wherever it started around, like what they're wanting from me. That's the sense I get of it. But I'm curious what you think, Amy. I think the Amsterdam episode, the infamous episode, And like, Kyle runs out of the restaurant after, like, Kim is almost basically assaulted. Kyle runs out and like a lot of the women run after Kyle and they leave Kim in the restaurant basically alone, surrounded by like glass. She has no allies and it's very dark. and I remember watching it with this kind of new lens of like. Understanding the family arc that we you know, we've been able to witness over 14 seasons now. But like, I think that Kyle. being like the youngest child and like she was put in a lot of really adult situations, really young as well. And like I could talk about the child actor industry for 4 hours, so we'll go too deep into it. But I do think like she was existing in a time in Hollywood where there was no supervision, you know, like the girls who were like child actors had to grow up incredibly fast. Like, I'm talking like you're seven years old dealing with things that 20 year olds don't even really see on set anymore. So there's a lot of things that I think you have to learn at the time, someone like Kyle and certainly someone like Kim Richards, but unfortunately, her her, you know, response mechanisms didn't work out as well is like the way that Kyle was able to kind of build more of like a healthy, healthy life for herself was by figuring out, okay, I'll just leave a situation. I'll just ignore it. I'll ignore the person. I have all these other people in my life. I have my own stability. I don't need them. It's like she's never had to do that with straight before and now like and I think I think in a good way for entertainment purposes Like we don't have the like Fox four or five anymore. They've broken apart the alliances that really have like brought down Beverly Hills. Yeah. Super protective to Kyle and made it just kind of boring to watch because we're just watching people like, get mad at the wrong person or, you know, it just had such a dark energy I think we all know, like when stuff is happening, it's the drama is happening off camera that makes immediately a season just be so bad and almost like unwatchable. I think, obviously. Rhony the new Housewives in New York is dealing with that in the last two seasons a time. It's like we just no one wants that. So the best thing that they've done is like kind of put Kyle now in a situation where like she does have to like think and act on her feet more than she has in years. I think like the audience has like been pretty so like whatever about Dory for a long time. And now it's like a whole new jury, and she has, like, balls on her, and she's willing to fight up against Kyle. And Kyle's really never had to deal with that Kyle and Tori are going through very similar things right now And so it's a moment where they could like come together But instead, Kyle is kind of maneuvering the way she always does in this, like, guarded. Like, I'm only willing to get into the mess of it if the mess doesn't, like, get on my clothes cause I've spent a lot of money on them. And so I think this is where a lot of the alliance for the audience, at least for myself, towards story is coming is like Tori is being really open, honest and vulnerable about this experience where Kyle's kind of saying like, this is me and my family's business, so I don't need to share it with you. Like I get to share it like in a controlled slow whenever I'm ready to share it. And it's like, sure, I guess that's like true to an extent, except for you've signed up for a reality show where you're supposed to be showing us your life in real time. And so I think it's very hard to take Kyle's side when like, yeah, all of her, like, cover, like, manipulation is as a covert anymore. And we're seeing it because we have a direct comparison of like, what it looks like to be authentic and relatable. Terry has essentially become a different person this season. And I like this person way better than the other person that I've been seeing for however many seasons. But one of the things when she was coming back to the show, I mean, a lot of people talk about how she was on the chopping block last season and then realized she had to bring it. But she talks about how she went to Lisa Rinna, which is surprising. But Lisa Rinna had given her the advice. If you're going to go back to Beverly Hills, you got to just put it all out there. You got to just, like, be your real self, talk about what's really going on and just go all out in a way. And I think that was really good advice because I think, too has been guarded in, you know, against what P.K. is saying. I actually think she protected her family. And I think we're meeting the real Dorit this season and the fact that she was able to go against Kyle without assuming she would have any backup Like obviously Boz has been amazing and just happened to join and they become best friends. But there was there's really no way for Dorit to know that that was going to happen. It's an interesting juxtaposition to Kyle, who seems to always need that Fox Force Five. She always needs that backup. Sutton has been playing that here and there on the show and Garcelle as well this season. But she's really losing all of our allies and that's why her back is up against the wall. And she kind of has to be held accountable because she's always collected this like group of people around her. For my purse, I was thinking, it's probably because she, didn't have any stability growing up. You know, all these things where you, like, collect people, you collect friendships, you have core friends because you didn't have that from like your mom. Like, you don't have that like when you're a little child actress, like running around Hollywood, like, barely going to school regularly, you know, like there's, I think, some stability you look for. And so once it's taken away from you, like what she now has on the show, which is no allies, like no unit that she almost has always had, like a core group, including her husband. And now she's. And none of that. Yeah. I'm just curious what you think for, like, a psychological perspective, like how Kyle got here. I get the sense that Kyle is really afraid of like a vulnerability. And so that's why she's often, like, surrounding herself by people. And that's why I also think a lot of those relationships are probably very superficial and kind of avoid going into like deeper places. And I think it's a way for her to avoid like her own vulnerability in herself. And now her children are leaving, her marriage is ending likely, and she's really having to, like, deal with herself and kind of look at herself. And now the show is like reinforcing that in that like, no, we see you now and now you're vulnerable. And what we get of vulnerable, Kyle, is someone who is a little bit, like hysterical, right? Like she's often running away, she's often crying. She often seems to be like grabbing at straws to create diversions and reflections. And especially we see these conversations where her and mother sitting down and like we're thinking like, this is going to be a conversation where they really talk about something and they talk about nothing, right? They talk about like the kitchen or the pool or. Right. Like you guys are divorced. Mo is sleeping with the Dancing with the Stars lady and his pad, like. And you're going to talk about the lights in the pool and it's like now we're seeing like it. What is the depth to Kyle here? Like what is the true depth to this person? she's kind of doing this whole like our marriage isn't like other people's marriages. My divorce is different than everybody else's. Like what I'm going through with Mo is so much different than what people are going through because like, like, you know, even with Sutton being like, but there was infidelity and Kyle's like, What? What are you talking about? There's always, like, glitched, and it's like, because the truth is, like, I think Kyle in, you know, I mean good for her but like she really does think that she's different than the other women and probably a lot of other women in her life. You know, it's just. It's just a really wild way of telling your own story. this idea that she's controlling the narrative. I don't feel like she is. I think this is the way she operates in her actual life. I just want to give it up to the producers because I think this season they are doing everything with the help of Sutton and in some ways Garcelle trying to get something out of Kyle because, you know, they're setting up these scenes with MO, which last season, even though they didn't really talk about anything, the body language and the chemistry between them showed the big divide this season. Obviously they seem fine, but like you're hearing in the background, all these other things are happening. Sutton's questioning her on the infidelity issue. Garcelle is, you know, questioning her on Morgan Sutton is like, why don't you just file for divorce? They're setting up the situations for Kyle to be honest and share her story. She's just clearly unwilling to do that. And as a producer, we're unable to write like you saying, like, maybe that is like her authentic self, that like there's this part of her that's so severed from the vulnerable parts that it's almost like, I can't just come out and tell you guys, I'm a lesbian because, like, my mind can't even play with this idea that I'm anything but, like this perfect little life that I've like, created for myself before the show and now like for the show, which, like, reinforces and makes it even more high stakes, which I don't even know if she is a lesbian. Maybe she's just getting something out of her relationship with Morgan that she doesn't get with Mo and other people and whatever, which is like, just explain that. Like, I don't care really if you're sleeping with her or not. I mean, I feel like the whole music video thing was just like a diversion for Like, let's put this on Morgan at work. Trying to ruin my marriage. I mean, I don't know. So I think, like, she needs to get a little bit more real with herself. Like, Terri is real with herself. Like she's really willing to put it all out there with PJ. To be frank, I I've watched now two seasons and a little bit of that other show that Mo did on Netflix about this divorce. And I couldn't tell you, like, well, I don't understand. I don't understand why they're getting divorced. I don't understand where Kyle is coming. Like, what went wrong. I understand where Mo's coming from. We got way more on his show on Netflix than we got in Beverly Hills because it's from his perspective. I can understand he's like, I've always made my wife happy, but now she's not happy. And for the first time ever, I can't fix it. So she's leaving. I'm leaving. And then he's like, I'm actually happy because now I'm running around Aspen with like 20 year old. So this seems good to me and I'm not going to get a divorce because if I get a divorce, then we have to like look at the assets of the agency. And that's going to be complicated and bad for me. So as long as I can run around with my 20 year old and she doesn't care, I'm never getting a divorce like we can work. Well, yeah, like he has no reason to want to get a divorce. But, yeah, I don't understand. Like, even this season, all of the women with the pizza party and her feeling sad, like any divorce is sad, any break, any change of life. It's huge and, like, transformative and sad. Like, I get that. But, like, Kyle's not even really telling us that story. We're getting it from the other women that she's sad, but, like, I don't understand because last season you wanted this divorce. Last season you ended it telling us that Mo did something to break your trust that was so bad that you couldn't go back. And then Sutton says Hello. You basically said he cheated on you unless there was something else. And she still, what a cop to what she was talking about. She was like, Oh, you mean the Instagram messages? Like, everybody knows we're not talking about the Instagram messages. We're talking about the interview bite where you said he did something to break my trust so bad that I couldn't go back. Well, like. Right. Yeah. I mean, we haven't seen I think Beverly Hills in particular, like does a real disservice to itself. A lot like where You get so close to a real story and then they just like wash it over, or they find a way to, like, not give this, like, give the audience, any context. they are telling us, like, enough to be able to like grab on to something. And I think that that's what I'm hoping the rest of the season does like at least after this play maybe of Kyle like walking out of a bus party, like it's getting the women talking more about things that they've only been like able to sort of like hint at that. Like Kyle's not showing up in the ways that everyone else has to. Like she's not being vulnerable on camera. She's like, she'll, she'll have her outburst where she's like, You don't know what's going on in my life, but then it's like, well, then tell us. And and she she won't. I don't know. Well, then she says, it's not your business. Yeah. As like you've been telling people for 14 years, to be honest, be honest, be honest. And it's like you now have an opportunity to like, if anything, like it's like a superpower, like control your narrative by being like, all right, this is what I'm being honest about. And like, paint a picture of what Jerry is doing this season. Like, she walked in, was like, This is what's going on. Peek is an alcoholic, but a lot like she like went through the list smoking cigarets we see a shift which is like a normal thing you expect and like kind of depend on from like people on a reality show. So I think the frustration I think arises because with Kyle, it's just like when someone keeps telling you like they're fine, they're cool. Like nothing has really changed for them. Everything's perfect. Look at our perfect family, giving Porsche a Porsche, like, that's cool, but it feels like you're not a reliable narrator. And I think if anything, I think Kyle's kind of using P.K. and her relationship, you know, the the memes of it all, to quote our queen Jennifer Tilly, and the memes like she is using it as another way to cover her own stuff. thinking about how Kyle and her sisters so much idealize their mom. And it makes me think about like, well, what would happen if they allowed themselves to, like, see their mom for, like, who she really is and how upsetting and vulnerable little place that would put them, her and them in and like thinking about when she did that American woman show and how there was some reality of like who the mom was in there and then there was disowning of it of like, no, this wasn't really about her. and it feels like kind of a similar thing goes on with Kyle with like her relationship with Mo and maybe her relationship with her self of like if I let myself really like talk about and sit with like the things that Mo has done as far as like has he cheated? Does he prioritize the agency over their marriage? Like what? Like, like if if she allows herself to go there is that vulnerability like to see like the truth of what's actually happening in her life and with herself, like how scary that must be. And even going back to her sexuality, like, we don't need her to come out right? Like if she's not ready for everyone, should that be on their own journey? And like whoever she is like, I think people will respect her. But I think there's this feeling of for me, there's like this disowning of something vulnerable in that if I come out like, who's not going to like me? If I'm like not straight, if I'm right, like, what's going to happen if I show a vulnerable part of myself and it gets rejected? Because my guess is that something that happened in their family like and they probably recognized at a young age each of them, because we see them all have defenses like kooky Kathy, like that's a defense. Kathy is a smart woman who navigates the world and like she's not as, like, kind of flighty or right kooky as I think she wants us to see. I think that's a total defense from like vulnerability. And Kim, like with, you know, drug addiction, like that's clearly a defense to like not like being sober means being vulnerable. And when you are on a substance, it allows you to, like, avoid vulnerability. And so I think they all learned at a young age that our vulnerabilities are a weakness that can get used or can cause harm to us. And so we have to find different ways to deflect from it. And, you know, Kyle is now kind of having to like. You know, face her defense, right? Like face the problems of her defense, the implications of it, like where it like doesn't work in relationship with, like a show with other women with an audience. is it possible for Kyle to continue on the show if she's not going to get deeper about this kind of stuff? just jumping into the final question, as we always do, is Kyle and her sisters in good for a reality TV? Is reality TV good for Kyle? But jumping into the question you just asked, I think Kyle would still be good on this show. Honestly, this is going to be such a Los Angeles answer, but I'm really proud of being from Los Angeles now with all the struggles we may go through. I feel like Kyle needs to go on a two week like barley retreat, like chef style ayahuasca, like we see what that did for him. I mean, honestly, Shep is a little bit Irish for that. But he also looked great. I have to say, it's just he looked great at Fan Fest. Also, I was like, Wow, chef, everyone looks great. But him in particular, I was like, I was close working. I don't know if therapeutic work Kyle is doing. I know we've seen. There was one I remember there was one episode. We see her like life coach come in and life coaches are like, I have no problem with life coaches. I think they have a great place in helping people like navigate different life challenges. But in my experience, they are trained with like going deeper into the more vulnerable therapeutic staff and how to like open those doors and work with that material. And so I'm hoping she has other therapeutic supports and the life coach. Yeah, she really needs to whatever she does, three day poly ayahuasca retreat or real therapist or I don't know, like be honest about what's going on with Morgan or anything really. Maybe actually filing for divorce could change things. I think she just needs to be more in touch with her vulnerable side and, like, able to share it, because I don't think this is like a production issue. I think this is a Kyle issue, and I don't even think this is a Kyle issue. Like, Kyle, you got to show up a little bit more for the show. Like, you're not really, you know, showing up to set. You're not really giving it. Like she is doing all those things. I think there is something fundamentally in her, you know, background, her or her personality that is preventing her from really going there. But in order to continue being interesting on the show, she really needs to I don't know, she's given some hints that she wants to leave the show to Kathy coming back. I liked Kim obviously is not in the place to come back. I don't think she should. I don't think she should have been on the show in the first place. I think anyone struggling in that level of addiction shouldn't be on reality TV. I just don't think it's healthy. But yeah, I mean, I, I would be interested in Kyle actually talking about what's happening with Kim. And, you know, just from her perspective, although all that stuff happened after, I think they're shooting windows, so we probably won't hear of it that much this season. But yeah, that's where I stand. Do you guys think Beverly Hills needs Kyle and the Richards sisters? Like, do you think that the show exists without. Kyle And then then kind of like a secondary characters or can it like get does it need her? That's I think I brought back. LVP We wouldn't need Kyle. Oh, well, and there's this rumor right now. Yeah, there's. There's this really right now that LVP is coming back, and, you know, it's been disputed as well. I mean, it feels well, and, you know, I think shut it down. Well, it's just weird. I mean, she was like, I don't think she wants to come back. I think he said, which who's starting that rumor, I guess? I mean, you're right. It means every show needs a stable person that they builds the show off of. I think what we're seeing with New York housewives in the like clean sweep is that it's just you're rebuilding a show from start. Like, we fundamentally don't think of New York Housewives as New York Housewives. It's a different show. And I think you saw that with O.C., too. Like, they needed to bring Tamara back. They needed to bring Heather back because they need, like, those people that we've been following for more than ten years to kind of keep it going I do feel like with Housewives now, Beverly Hills Housewives, we do have a couple of those people like I feel like attached to and like I would watch her anyways. JERRI Right now I'm, I'm loving like I would like to see her dating and like doing other things, even. Erika Like Comeback of the century. Like I'm Erika this season. Same yeah. Yeah. And because I've really turned around and Erika, I would like to see the same thing happen to Kyle to the she does a show meet I don't know here's the thing the shows don't this is what Andy does fundamentally understand. The shows don't need anyone. They need good characters and they need good press and yeah, yeah. And they can do that. But sometimes, yeah, it's going to take a couple of seasons or whatever. But like then again we see like New York Housewives getting almost similar ratings, cable ratings. So streaming is a different story, but like as Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. So it's just crazy. I mean, Salt Lake City deserves like an E got like that is. To me, the best housewives I think I've ever seen. And, you know, with that show, it was like people were like, the show can't exist without Jen Shah. And it's like it gets better and better and better, like as the seasons go with people leaving. And like, that's a smart thing, I think for like Beverly Hills has not figured that out yet. Like a lot of good stuff comes from like bringing in new people and new energy and like doesn't because they got rid of Rina. Like, she was definitely like mucking and got bits in. Like, it's interesting that she's the one who told Dorit to, like, bring it all because I feel like she's like another one who just like, you never really got to know what was going on with her in more than a superficial way. Like, yeah, she talked briefly about her mom and her children's eating disorder and like there were things she shared. But I always felt like this is like the surface of what's going on, and I'm going to deny any way that it's like attached to me and my behavior in the way that like I engage in the world. Yeah. So it's interesting when she's one, but like she was like mucking it things up and they were like, you got to go like we got to get rid of you if you're making it up. Even though I think people like there were really like diehard Rinna fans and like she brought a lot at the beginning when she first came in and she was a character. Yeah. Cause the river to come back if Kyle is gone. Oh, I don't know. I'm like, I do like to go back. You're not growing up like, that's a no. It's just. I don't know. I think it creates a standstill with people. But because I don't think you're all like alliances that like, yeah, almost create like us against whoever were against this season. So if it's LVP, we're all going to. Whatever Kyle feels, we're all going to rally around what Kyle thinks. And even if we go back to, like, Brandi, like she was the one who kind of created that whole story, right? We only first found out about it because she invited all the girls to her house and brought it out, which is, like, interesting that like, you are the one who kind of outed a woman and now you're mad that people are like outing you, like, oh, interesting, hypocritical thing that's going on inside of you. But like, it has been this dynamic of like what Kyle feels towards somebody. A lot of people get behind. Yeah. And I think I totally agree with you or you both. Like as much as she's kind of like a has been an anchor on the show, it has also been a disservice to the show by like not giving us the space to like talk about new things like, you know, four seasons of Beverly Hills. It's just been like repeating something over and over for an entire season like Lucy, Lucy Apple Juice City or like, you know, like just these things that you were like, what is even happening? Like, who are these people? Like, we don't care. We didn't see anything. And it just. It's like anger inducing. I think, next season, if Kyle was back. I would you know, what I would love to see is for her to, like, be in that phase where during that now where it's like we've seen that shift. So we're not feeling like stuck in that, like, oh, it's just Kyle Richards being Kyle Richards again and like protecting herself for a while. She's like, well, like we, we all need to watch these shows to detach. And you can't win. Like, it's like an unreliable narrator because you just assume like she's hiding something or whatever it is. I think Beverly Hills, definitely. Could use stepping away from Kyle as the main narrator, basically, because like if I have to watch her and Jerry talk about texting, pick me for the next like eight episodes I'm going to like there's I'm not going to watch it, you know, it's just like, what are we doing here? It's like, not entertaining. So I think Beverly Hills, like, every season, it's like if we don't move on from this, it's, it's not this a great season of TV So I guess we'll see. Which is what was so classic about classic New York. They never took to a bone. They never. And that's like workers. You don't hang on to a bone. You move on for the good time of it like you, you know, you got bigger fish to fry than one little issue. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My main argument about new Real Housewives of New York, I'm like, and these women, New Yorkers, it's just like the new generation. I'm like, I would never hang on to the shit that they hang on to on that show. But that's another podcast that we're already thinking about doing. I feel like Garcelle kind of takes on that position of like she's, like, the relatable one now, and she's vulnerable. Like, she shares about her, like, struggles with her kids and, like. But she's, like, kind of relatable, right? Like, she's not the richest of them all. I guess now she is, because she's gotten all these, like, like opportunities. But she kind of came on as like this b c list actor who's like in Hollywood, but clearly not like very wealthy. She bought this like little, little piece of land and was able to, like, build it up over time. And she's the relatable one now. So I don't know that we like need Kyle as that in anymore. Yeah. And Kyle's not relatable. She's, like, almost a billionaire. Like, I would say, Kyle Richards, probably the richest housewife we have right now. I mean, her in ratio. And she is a huge part of ownership of it. From what I understand. I mean, they're not like billionaires with with the agency, And it's like if someone, someone could be like the richest, craziest, you know, wild person in the world, but still, like, if they, like, let you in a little bit, it's like that's, you know, that's how you feel. Like, you know, people and some people on Bravo do it really, really well. And Kyle, you know, for all the reasons we talked about, like I think really struggles with it and we're seeing that now more than ever. And it's it's strange. It's a strange experience to kind of watch it play out. But I hope she gets it together this season. And, like, I mean, I hope she like. Really like let's go a little bit the season before that and just just just for herself, for her own well-being, for the audience as well, being like just be cool. Don't be all like uncool, just be cool. And so I think open up for her to have the audience kind of holding her her feet to the fire. I think this is a place where people can change. I think there's been so many years where the audience has just been like, We love Kyle. She's so great. She's the past. She's our favorite, she's the leader. And it's kind of reinforced a lot of this behavior and a lot of the things that now we're like, Oh, wait. Totally. Yes. Reality TV has been great for Kyle. Like, let's just say the agency wouldn't be the agency without the show. They were definitely rich in that first season, but the growth in their wealth is been extraordinary to watch. but she she is having to rethink her whole life. I know she's thinking about moving to Aspen and stuff and maybe there's a Real Housewives of Aspen she could spin off. I would be interested to watch. I love that. I would love that. I mean, the Internet says that the richest housewife is actually Nina Ali from Dubai. And then the second is Kathy Hilton. The third is Heather Dubrow, and Kyle is the fourth. Wow. She's doing interesting. I don't know how accurate any of this is because obviously. But I mean, that first season of housewives like she's definitely rich for even L.A. standards. But she the agency is just massive. And that's why I don't know if I'll see them get divorced, because financially it would be devastating, I think, in some ways. Yes, both of them. And she clearly doesn't know anything about the money, like she's she's an Erika. And she admitted it, which I felt was interesting, especially when they were so hard on Erika and meanwhile Kyle sitting there in the same situation. But yeah, I mean, I really appreciate Amy for being with us today. This is like such a spirited conversation. I feel like I could go on for hours and hours and hours. Me too. I feel like there's so many things that we could have just gone so much deeper on. And we should. We should. Any time you guys want to talk about, like, Big Kathy and her crazy manifestation powers, like just the fact that I'll end on this. The fact that, like. Nicole. Nicky Hilton is married now to a Rothschild has been for over a decade. She liked it. That's like the richest thing you can do is like marry a Rothschild like that is to me, like whatever Big Kathy did until, like, manifest. Like, I want my daughters in the next generation to just get the wealth. Like American wealth. And, like, it's not like Big Kathy was coming from money. Like, it's just pretty amazing. Like, the ability that, you know, they went she got for her daughters and her grandkids and and the next generations like it's really a a fascinating ability to to achieve. That's interesting that you say that because I feel like my husband hates me watching Beverly Hills because sometimes I'll watch and we like here like the divorce settlement some of these women get. And I'm like, ooh, I made a huge mistake marrying a poor person who. Right. I will never divorce, but, like, will never get gets $300,000 a month. Yeah, like, that is like a dream. Not to get divorced, but it is another caliber of. Well, I mean, that's one type of dream, right? To like divorce someone who gives you so much money. I mean, and this state of America doesn't sound terrible. Yeah, this state of America, especially for women, that's like. That's the saddest thing, that that's kind of what because I was like, I want my daughter to be the next CEOs. And it was like, no, I don't. I want them to me marrying a Rothschild. I actually have a great prenup. Yeah, yeah. My husband's. My husband's the same way he walks into watch Beverly Hills and then he has to, like, walk out because he's like, it's just so sad. Why don't we have and I'm like, I don't even I don't even think about it because I'm like, these women's lives are just tied with the money. So it just shows you like, money or no money like you got problems. They ain't going away. More money, more pool. Not to quote the embattled Puff Daddy, but. So that's. Yeah, that's a good thing to end out. I mean, maybe. Maybe Kathy needs to teach, like, a mary Rich seminar. But I'm loving bowling. I love bowls and I love her story. And I love that she has a different a different story than most of these women. That she really comes from corporate America. But, yeah, let's definitely, like, re let's let's do an follow up episode when the reunion comes out and we get the rest of this season, because I think it's almost like when we did Lindsay from Summer House is like I feel like we're gonna have more to say so people will be like in similar to Lindsay like, did she get more vulnerable? No, it's still stylish till this season. We have like another half of the season. So what if she said, I guess I work with too many people who, you know, that type of insight and change takes a long time, I think. Bring Lindsay Hubbard to Real Housewives of New York. That's the only way to say of the show. I think that is the way to do it. Bring her in. Give her like she can ground it. And we get to see her outside of summer house would be ideal for me. So being on this podcast, I get to manifest things. That's what I'm putting out into the world. Oh, my God. Does that sound impossible? Does it? I think that would be so good. I think it's what they need. We'll see. Thank you so much for having me, as always. It's so fun catching up with you guys doing this deep dove any time. So fun. All are doing amazing work, my girls. And yes, it's really fun. And thanks, everyone, for listening.