Why is The Real Housewives of New York City Broken?

In this episode, we welcome back our friend Ash from Instagram's @Ashtalkstea to dissect the latest season of "The Real Housewives of New York City." While initially criticized for its slow pace, the season culminated in one of Bravo's most explosive and dark finales. We delve into the intense conflict between Brynn Whitfield and Ubah Hassan, examining how the show handled sensitive topics like sexual assault. And, of course, we tackle the burning question: Where does RHONY go from here? Tune in for an insightful discussion that leaves no stone unturned.

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Chapters

• 2:15 What's not working on RHONY
• 18:20 Brynn and her "lies"
• 27:53 Brynn's trauma
• 36:51 Ubah and her outbursts
• 52:00 Colorism
• 1:02:02 The finale
• 1:19:49 Where does RHONY go from here?
• 1:28:21 Paige and Craig's Breakup

Transcript

Welcome back, everyone. I'm here with my trusty co-host, Sam. How y'all. Ready to do all the reads as usual. But today we're covering the ill fated Real Housewives of New York City. Well, maybe let's not put like a. Adjective is that adjective. on like what it is but the complex new Real Housewives of New York that there seems to be a lot of different thoughts feelings. And I think probably even just us here today are going to have some different thoughts, feelings and ideas about. Yeah. So I want to introduce our guest today. We have ASH talks to But on this pod before and we're really happy to have her back. Thank you. Thanks for having. I'm really excited. This is the only housewives that I've watched like Olive. So I'm really excited. And I think you're going to give such a fresh perspective because you haven't watched the original. So your context is sort of like only this reboot, which I think is really interesting because I'm also excited to hear, like I said, ill fated Sam wants to leave it up to the audience to decide. But like, do they part of the judgment is around this comparison between the original, you know, experience of Real Housewives of New York and what is happening as they've recast that. And like this comparison of the different cast, of the different way the cast tell story, the way the different cast, you know, present themselves as reality TV stars. And it is extremely different. And to like come to the show and have not seen that original because I feel like part of what creates a wall for me is my attachment to the original. what is your take on this, new reboot? Do you like it? No, not really. Well, I do this podcast over. A lot of the women just seem unlikable. They're dynamic. I don't really enjoy also the tone of the season. Like either they're pranking each other or like deep seated trauma in there was like no in between. But they were really powerful moment at the same time. And I like Jessel and that's all. Raquel No notes. Yeah, I thought. I thought Raquel storyline was refreshing with her mother, but overall, I just the the whole season was kind of a drag. And then there was intense moment and then the season finale was just completely dark. And I was looking around watching it by myself like, I don't know, I just felt uncomfortable when I'll see that, like. It was just. I just. I don't know. And then the reunion, I guess there was catharsis and closure, but where do they go from here? I feel like some people kind of got. Overly attacked that shouldn't have it. overall, I'm not walking away from the season, like, feeling good or, like, excited. Right. And I appreciate Ash was the first person to talk to me on Instagram after I watched it because Sam hadn't watched it yet. And I was like, I don't think I had such a strong reaction to a Bravo show in a really long time or maybe ever, because it just made me so upset and it was like so triggering as well that I had just and I guess like this summary which we're going to get into all of this is like I kind of put the villain here as, like, production. Mm hmm. Because there was a lot that I felt like was not handled well, which doesn't do lightly. I feel like. I feel like you're not someone who's going to put production in that place very lightly. You'd very much honor that. Production has a difficult job. And like that, it's not necessarily always their job to, like, protect the reality star and they're doing their job. So I think it's important to note that. Yeah. And I also like want to say, I know some people who work on the show that I love and respect their work so much. And I want to say, like, it's really no reflection on like one producer, one person. Like when you make it, these kind of shows like Bravo, there's so many voices, there's so much input, it there's just a collective mind going into it. And I've been on shows where I didn't agree with things or how it was handled, and I am the smallest voice in the room. So it really was a choice, a choice made by many people. And I think the fans had a reaction. I think that that reaction was fair and I think it is a good time for this production to take a step back and see kind of where they went wrong. But yeah, I mean, I think that this has been an issue for them for a while because if you look at how Real Housewives of New York City and did the the original cast, you know, one of the biggest issues was a lack of diversity on the show because it was very centered around Upper East Side white women. And while we had occasional flavors, it was that was it. That was New York City. It wasn't downtown. We had one woman from Brooklyn, which was very controversial in that first season of New York City, but also very traditional white woman. And then they added that final season, Eboni K Williams, who I actually like loved. I thought she brought a lot to this show. I think it was really interesting. It was like at the height of when Trump was president, COVID was happening. There was a lot of racial conversations that I felt like was like interesting to watch. And I think a big issue was things that Ramona had said off camera to Eboni and potentially to a crew member about the black women on the show. Or I can't even remember the specifics, but, you know, was never really it was investigated. They canceled the reunion and then the reboot happened. And I think the reboot was very much in the vein of like, let's bring diversity to the show, let's bring younger people. And I think in in that aspect, it was smart. I think some of the other aspects, like they really pushed it down our throats. I felt like in that first season where they were like, it's back and like we weren't over. Like, I know me personally, I was not over Real Housewives of New York City being over like I liked Ebony. I liked that cast. I felt like it could have come back without Ramona I do think like recasting it in this way, like there was some intention of like what is a better representation of like New York City But I think what feels hard for me is with the original, yeah, it was all white women, these stuffy kind of upper, you know, stodgy Upper East Siders who come from like money or, you know, made money out of their divorces. And it felt like this is a real like subset of like a culture that I'm being led into that like I would never have access to and never would really want access to. But it's fascinating to watch. We're, I guess, like this bigger, diverse, bigger representation of New York feels a little like I have access to that a little bit already. And so it doesn't feel as like I'm stepping into something. And I think that's also because their relationships with each other feel very like these are coworkers, not like these are friends or even women coming together to create authentic friendships. Because we know when housewives, they cast people and then they're kind of brought in as like friends and maybe they know somebody. But you feel like those relationships and those friendships develop in an authentic way as the show like goes on where it doesn't feel this way. Like, I do like, yeah, you see on Instagram that they seem to be hanging out, but it's almost like they're hanging out at work events, like they're at a fashion show. Like that is like a work event for an alliance that's not, like, fun. And so I, I think what feels hard is they don't feel like I'm being I'm not seeing something that, like, is happening authentically that I don't get to see. And it just feels like you're trying to, like, shove a bunch of, like, different shapes pegs into a round hole. And, like, maybe some of them fit like a gel still fits and a Raquel fits and I'm like, okay, I can feel something like seeing what's happening with Jessel and her husband. Like that felt so authentic and interesting, like watching them have this conversation where she's trying to have a real talk about their family and he's photographing food like that probably speaks to someone struggling in their marriage and watching them go to couples therapy where, like, it doesn't always feel like all of these women are willing to show us their lives. I've always kind of felt like this show should have been called The Real Influencers of New York, because I feel like that's who they are and that's who they're showing up to the show as they're we are influencers. We know how to curate our lives, we know how to show ourselves. And that's what we want to show. We want to show the Instagram of our lives, not the reality of our lives. Yeah. I think someone else had messaged me on Instagram saying that they felt like the name was soaring it off because Dorinda had done a podcast where she said, you know, she felt like it was shoved down the fans throats. And also people just had this like love for Roni and like, if they had just named it something else, would that have changed the context of it? But I guess no, no, no. That's why, like, your answer is so telling and interesting to me. And that first season, like I feel like first seasons of any shows, you just have to like get to know the people and the characters and be slow and that and that was fine. I just didn't like the trauma dumping like every event was like. Now it's time for my sad backstory. No, it's time for my sad backstory. And like, instead of it coming from real things like, for instance, like Sy this season talks about how poverty calling her bipolar really hurt her because her mom was bipolar. And that was like, you know, what would have been such a more interesting editing choice if we didn't know about size mom and we didn't know about all of that. And when Pervis calls her bipolar, that's when we learned about it, because it's coming off of something that authentically happened in conflict as opposed to like you just getting the information. It's almost similar to the the story with Brant and we're going to get way more into this. But like Brendon, her sexual assault, it's like would it have been more interesting if we didn't learn about that prior to everything that happened in Puerto Rico? Because then I as an audience is almost taking it in at the same time that like all the women are and maybe it would have been taken a little bit differently because I mean, obviously their reactions became all about Uber. But like, you know, maybe that would have changed how I viewed that like reveal as well, I think you hit the nail on the head. What the cast just isn't gelling well. And you know, my previous show that I watch all of, it's The Bachelor. And so every time The Bachelor or The Bachelor has a date with the contestant, they the first time they meet them, they just tell them all of their trauma and the biggest, worst thing that's ever happened to them. And I hate that about the show because like, I just think people are more than that and I feel like it. I think they're trying to force like a connection and I feel the same way with Rony. So it was really heavy and it felt like. I do think, Aaron, for example, dealing with the death of her father and coming out with her story about her abortion and also just like her mother being sick. She had a lot going on, too. So it was hard for me to hold that context and then see her like having all these petty fight. So I just think the dynamic of the cast is off to me. The stories that were actually interesting weren't the ones that we were focusing on and then just the build up. Of the conflict at the end of the season. I feel like, like you said, that was just that was a very interesting point about we knew about the sexual assault all along. So the women being shocked at the end of the season and just the framing of it, I feel like the framing of it could have told a completely different story and and we could walk away with learning a lot more about the women in themselves. It doesn't also feel like they're self-reflective at all. Like at the reunion, I feel like some of them should have watched back and apologized or watch back and changed some of their behavior. So I guess the main reason I don't like it is it's not fun to watch. And I know like they had the pranks and silly stuff, so I guess they thought that was fun. It just, I don't know, the world is heavy, so I felt like watching it. It's just heavier and like, I come to reality TV for escapism, so I want to enjoy what I'm watching and not feel like I have something else to process along with. Like the world being on fire. Just to know, unlike trauma dumping, like often trauma dumping comes from like when we experience different traumas in our lives, we want to like feel a sense of like control over things and control over our stories. And so I think a lot of times probably on The Bachelor, this is also where it's coming from. The Force connection is probably part of it, but it's probably also like, I want to like get this out there. So I feel like it's contained in some sort of way. And that's really what that first season felt like of like, I don't want to be seen as vulnerable, so I'm just going to like tell my story in this way that's really controlled and really like unemotional right? Then I think that was part of it was like, where's the like you're telling us big traumas and there's no emotions. And then we go to the extreme of this season. Now you're telling us big traumas and there's like all these erratic emotions. And I, like, don't know how to feel about any of this. And so I think, like, because these women are so calculated and curated, they were like, we're going to get all our traumas out there right here at the front. And it almost like allows us to not be reflective. It's like, look, I have all this trauma, so, like, no one can hold me accountable for anything. Yeah, like this forced bonding. And I think that's a good pivot into the mean to people. I think we should get into just in general is like Brynn and Uber because that was like the central argument. But like sprinkle in everybody else, you know, as we go. But yeah, I think Ash hit it on the head to of like these petty arguments and that was really draining for me at times. I would just have it on the background while I was doing housework because I was like, I can't engage really with the show. And my frustration was Brynn was often seen as like to me the scapegoat of a lot of these arguments. And while she did, you know, maybe exaggerate or twist words or whatever, she definitely has a role in what's happening. But she's not all the responsibility. Yeah, and she's a pot stirrer, but like like so many great housewives that we love. So I can see in Brin's mind, I'm going to stir the pot and I'm going to be beloved. You know, she was sort of a fan favorite from season one. But I want to go to real quick just some of the is because it became a big thing at the end that Brynn lies. That's what happens. And to me, some of her lies weren't like lies any more than I just want to say like braunwyn from Salt Lake City, who's sort of like a fan favorite, though she's been called out more about her lies. But one of the main things this season was she said that Cy hated Jenna, which Jenna then like kind of confronts Cy, but then says, Well Brynn told me, and then it becomes all about Brynn. But on the reunion, Cy said, I was telling a lot of people that I didn't like you and that you're not for me. But I never said hate. Like, to me, they're mincing words. Yeah, but besides that, the frustration is like, okay, but then you didn't address that. Like you Cy and Janet never addressed. Why did you say you hate me? Why don't we have a friendship? Like, I feel like it was swept under the rug because it became about Brynn. I think they had that lunch after where there was, like, some talk about it, but like it just seemed like Cy doesn't like Jenna. That seems like a big deal. And Brant is at least bringing that to the surface and then you guys just totally diverted. Another incident was the uber drama where Erin orders an Uber from the Hamptons to New York City for Jenna. And just to be clear, that had to have been like a $300 or more, potentially more depending on the traffic that day. Yeah, I mean, the Hamptons, it's like depending on where you live, like 2 hours. Good traffic. Yeah, like 3 hours. Like, to me, if someone didn't pay me back for something that was that expensive, I mean, maybe if you're rich, you don't care. But to me, I would be like, hello. And I feel like that was the real issue. And then Bryn says that she was inferring that she had money problems. Well, we learned throughout the season that she borrowed this expensive car that she brings in the Hamptons. Wasn't even her car, but she presents it like it was. She selling all her clothes, to pay for her teeth, surgeries, and then at the reunion and he's like, can I have the bathrobe for like bravocon? She's like, it's 1500 dollars. Like, I'm returning this. And then Brant is like, this dress is $7,000 and I bought it and in fairness, I think what these women spend on clothes is like insane to me. but when Jenna said this bathroom is 1500 dollars, I was like, that's chump change. And like, housewives money. So I was kind of like, yeah. And then the like from last season, there was a thing about the cheese plate which also felt like. So I was complaining about. Erin Never. Having food and that became a thing. But there are some incidents I want to I want to say that she did take it too far. Obviously, the Jasso situation making it sound like this man that she hooked up with was the love of her life over it. Yeah. So, you know, she definitely did her fair share of damage. But I feel like the lying and you're a liar. Just a little exaggerated in a sense, of, like, she just kind of brought out all the shit you guys didn't want to talk about. And then instead of talking about it, you made it about her, so. What is your take on all of that? Brian is a complicated figure, I think, because she's biracial. So I feel like she navigates to different black realities. And so sometimes I think she gets a little more privilege than other people on the show, particularly Uber. And so it's hard to navigate that because I feel like there are certain times where she identifies as black, but it feels like it's when she's making disparaging comments specifically towards Uber and she does attempt to apologize or say that she doesn't navigate the world in the same way as Uber at the reunion. And Uber kind of belittles that and doesn't really sit with that. And I don't know if it's just because Uber has pretty privileged. Maybe. So she's thinking like, I don't experience those problems. But when you speak about being curated, I think that's brand. She is very smart. She knows what good television is. She's probably a student of these other shows and knows her role really well because there's also moments in the season where people where she's not I mean, for lack of better terminology, coaching people a little bit like you want to be you want to say this or do this to appear this way. she is one that I will give that is giving real moments of her life and things that she's actually struggling with. And so I do applaud her for showing us where she's at. I do think. The lying part is more about word choice and we see it on like Southern charm. DJT com is Patricia a bitch? Like it's the same type of thing. But I think for the women on Real Housewives of New York, they're just taking it as like truth. And so if she misspeaks and she did say a few times that she was under the influence of alcohol during filming, which I think would obviously impair your judgment. He might not recall things verbatim, but it does seem like like, for example, when Uber said you might have slept with someone to get this job, like she take that comment and then she says, like she keeps saying that Uber said about like ditches a dick to get the job which is two different things. And like she said it enough that I'm like, did Uber say that? And I think when Uber gets caught up on semantics, they have a very, I guess, sisterly relationship like antagonizing. And you can tell that when they have that moment at the reunion. I think Bryn and Uber do care about each other and I just think Bryn tow the line a little bit between playful and like goading and trying to get the story line, keeping it cute, keeping it fun to kind of divert from the real experiences and feelings that she has. And I do think she's a little bit of a producer and just kind of knows like what's going to make a good show and sometimes she'll fall on the sword. But I think she got too involved in too many of the situations. And somebody like Aaron, for example, kind of got out of accountability a little bit because everyone's so hyper fixated on branded this brand and that that other people who are involved in the same situations kind of didn't get as much fire because everyone could kind of unite around what we know branded this we know brand line about that and other people didn't really have to speak up and like take accountability for their part in a lot of the storylines. Definitely. And I think that's what the audience reacted to with Brenda. The self producing especially like trying to tell Rebecca like give it back to me. She definitely watches housewives But in fairness, if Bryn was given a good cast, I think you'd see an interesting Bryn and she would react and it would she be more natural. I think there are a lot of times and also like there there are times where we've seen her like we end that finale hanging out with the producers and stuff. I like she's probably really close with production. I think she knows nothing's happening. I think she has a lot riding on this show and they may put a pressure on her knowing that she's the one willing. Right. Like all these other women are so trapped in their like political correctness that they're not going to be willing to necessarily maybe do the bidding of the producers to like push story along where Brendon seems to be the one who's like open to it and. It also seems like maybe she's one of the people who really needs to show like she's single. She doesn't come from like a big career, like someone like Jenna and like there's probably a bigger financial stake for her around having the show be successful. And that like pool scene with Aaron Cy and Brant really felt like the producers like can you guys like because the way these trips are often produced too is like, you know, people are slowly waking up, but they set up these little seamless. So I feel like they pulled those three together, was like, sit in this little pool chair and gas up or give us something or talk about something because like, it was just such a hard cut into them, like suddenly just talking all this shit about GSO. And you could tell like there was interview bites that were really justifying it, which was sort of from Brynn again being like, I want to bond with these girls because we've had some conflicts. So the best way we bond is talk and shit. And to me that was like such a almost like a scripted bite to justify why the hell these three women are suddenly just talking all this shit about Jessalyn, who they seemingly have no issues with. Um, and then that was kind of frustrating to, in a sense that like the most interesting part of it was definitely about the guy in the love of your life. And to be honest, I've been on girls trips with women who are happily married and like in good relationships, and they'll say, there's a one that got away that I like, loved, and if there was no cameras around, that would be really interesting to talk about. But like, these women will never talk about it because there's cameras around and they know it and they're way too aware. But then the dinner with Jess all became all about her and the photo shoots. And then nobody mentioned the worst part, and we didn't get to see it till the reunion when Jess was like, crying. So I felt like there were times where it was like sort of pushed on bread and even the off camera conversation. She was having humor about like how she's being perceived or I'm going to protect you. And, you know, we'll get more into the, you know, angry black woman comment as well. Like, it did seem like Bryn and all the women have these a lot of off camera conversations that we then get bits and pieces of on the show. Last season with the reveal of Uber's boyfriend in Connecticut, you know, Sara admits, I like offhandedly said she had a boyfriend on camera and I should nev but that off camera I'd get all the details and it's like why do we have an off camera life in an on camera life? And why are we constantly talking about this? Because in our world. And we as audience are more savvy now. But like in our world, there should be no off camera. It should just be on camera. So I think that's frustrating for the viewer to only get bits and pieces of the story to. I did want to ask Sam, do you feel that this pattern of Brynn sort of doing this pot stirring for attention and also kind of like falling into this role of scapegoating? Do you think that's been a pattern for her based on like her traumatic childhood? A really interesting take about Brynn coming off of I don't know, actually, if you watch Potomac at all, I think there are real similarities between Brynn and Mia. Okay. I think there's similarities in their backgrounds. I think there's similarities in them kind of taking on these like seductive seductress type personas and what that means to them and getting like validation and like, needs met in response to like big attachment wounds and traumas around abandonment and neglect and understanding that their sexuality is something that can, like, get them something and keep them make them feel safe in certain ways. Right. And they both tend to. They have different, like, interesting relationships with like truth and fact. And so I don't want to say lie because I think, like, I don't think any of them has the intention to lie. I think that they manipulate their experience. And whether that's a conscious or an unconscious thing, I think it is absolutely a product of trauma. And like this way in which like trauma impacts your relationship with reality and your lens of like the world, you're going to be more in a survival and sort of like trying to figure out ways to keep yourself safe and keep yourself alive. So even if we go to like her saying, like Cuba knew about this and then kind of being like, oh, like maybe she didn't clock it. There was a part of her that was clearly trauma activated by Uber, saying she had maybe or she had slept with someone to get on the show, which is like valid. Like even if she didn't say the blowjob comment like again, the tit for tat of like semantics around that. Like if she didn't even say anything about blowjobs or whoever said about it, like that initial comment of you slept with someone to get on the show. Like women should never say that to women. Like we should never be putting women in a place that they should be shamed for their sexuality or felt like they're they're objectified like that as woman on woman crime to me, like no matter who you are. But clearly that activated something in her that like took some time and was clearly building up around the tension and the increased feelings of like unsafe d she was feeling with Uber in that moment because she was feeling Uber rejecting and abandoning her. And so then she's like acting out and she's doing what she needs to, like, ground herself and feel safe. And the only thing that made sense with her was like, Uber must have known this thing and be trying to hurt me because that's what people do. That's what people in my life do. They try to hurt me. They do it intentionally. They leave me, they abandoned me. They right. They neglect me. And so that's where I think a lot of it comes from, especially when it comes to like lies about like we see her at the reunion saying like everybody left me alone Like nobody, nobody. And then John is like, wait, no, we all like hold you. We all like we're calling to check in on you. And she's like, Well, I just needed space. I just needed space. And she's like, That's fine. But like, don't say we didn't like don't say we abandoned you. But like, I think her perception was she was abandoned because whatever support she thought she was going to get wasn't going to be the support that she needed. And so it felt alone. And so I do think a lot of like the places where we're seeing her, like I think the other lies are meant to be about drama and like whatever, like just as husband, like that's not right. But like, again, in the grand scheme of things, if part of it is really jealous of like some other guy that just is like, he's the one who got away. Like you guys, we've see you guys have deeper issues than your says and like I don't know what the the thing about Jenna like being poor and so I hate like these are small twists of the truth and order I think oh probably to bring drama probably also coming from like a trauma place of like I see things in extremes, right? Like when we go through trauma, we tend to see things in black and white because that is a way of like navigating the world in a way that's safe because gray area doesn't feel safe, right? Like as, um, traumatized systems, we can tolerate gray area, but it doesn't always still feel safe to us. But if you've experienced like an especially like complex trauma that it seems like Bren has experienced, you're going to really be in this black and white. So I may have said, I don't like you. And to her that like does mean like you hate her because that's how she understands the sort of like black and white experience of things. And she definitely throws her sexuality out there, like in Puerto Rico when she's rolling around in the sand for that life. Guard. So it's it did feel like a cry for attention because it's almost like don't talk about how I have my money from men and don't do this, but then I'm going to roll around in the sand for this guy. It is very me at thought into me. Should we get into UBA or ask did you have anything else on Bren? Well I'm well I guess it applies to both of them. I think. Brand and Uber and all of them really just don't know each other's boundaries and have different things that they don't tolerate and seem unacceptable And so, for example, Uber, with the sharing of the picture with Abe and calling him on speaker phone like that was a hard boundary for her. And we know how protective she is of Mr. Connecticut. She doesn't want anybody to know anything about him. So for Aaron to share so much about Abe so freely, she just sees that as like a boundary of hers. And I feel like once I step on that, she responds. And Uber is someone who culturally, I guess, is the reason that the boundaries are just different for her. So like making the comment about like no one else would go to Puerto Rico and make the comments that she was making about someone's childhood beach that they're bringing you to. Very vulnerability, I think, you know, and so making those comments and then like when they were telling her the comments are wrong, she just she didn't see like how she made a mistake even though it was pretty black and white to everyone else. Same thing with the comment about fighting cancer and Aaron's mom is actively going through chemotherapy. She just didn't really understand that boundary. And I don't know if it's cultural. That's the main issue. But I think a lot of the tension between brand and Uber specifically is because of the boundary. Brynn is very sensitive about any comments about money, any comments about her sexuality and utilizing that to get in the position she's in. So Uber violated that boundary when she made that comment, whether or not it was a personal boundary for her then I do think Uber really is concerned about her character, her reputation. And so I genuinely think a brand suggesting that she knew about the assault was like questioning her character because never in her mind would she violate that boundary. So for her to say that and everyone else to kind of rally around brand and question her, I feel like her word is probably something because considering wasn't she, isn't she from Somalia like immigrated to Canada. So she had a whole different upbringing and life. So at one point she probably all she had was her word and what she says and who she is. So I think Brannon making the suggestion that Uber knew and still made the comment really hit something beat for her. So they just all are tiptoeing around each other's boundaries. But as far as Brynn, I think she has a lot to unpack. And there's her childhood trauma. I don't think she has the mechanisms to deal with that. Like you said, she has deep abandonment issues. And so there's no there's no grave for her. I feel bad for her and and feel bad for feeling bad because I'm like, I don't know how much of it is like she's also like she can be a victim in the situation. And I do I am glad that they all said we believe what you said in your account of your sexual assault. I would understand their reticence to want to be her friend. And I know they're coworkers anyway, so it's not like actual friendships. And I think Uber probably and Brian probably had an actual friendship. And so if Brian is. Acting one way off camera and then on camera. You know, it plays out differently. And you but I don't think you know, we were talking about the on camera, off camera. I don't think that clicks for Uber. I think she's the same. Off camera, on camera. I think this is a great pivot. That's a great pivot then, because I do want to acknowledge the cultural differences. I was actually rewatching some stuff and Uber in one of the reunions talks about how Jenna said, I saw a different side of you and she gets so activated by that. And she's like, But in Africa or in her in her native language, she's like, that means I'm like two face, like two sided, two faced, which is different in our language. Right? Like we would say two faced. And Jenna was saying, no, I just see a different side of you. Like everyone has different sides. And Uber took it differently in that. And Jenna sort of like, okay, well, I'm sorry then. That's not what I meant. So there are times when I think the mincing words might also be cultural language barriers. A lot of these other things. But yeah, I mean, for me, Uber has these like huge outbursts, which I was really happy like and acknowledged and really like pressed her on in this reunion just to give a quick summary of those. Like there was a big phone fight with Erin season one, where Erin played a prank and took her phone and then she completely freaked out for like a whole day and pulled the glasses off of her and became a very big thing. And then there was when I started feeling like this was a pattern for Uber. Was that the reunion? When Jenna says that she invited her over, she didn't tell her they were filming. And Uber totally flipped out. And then she said, you know, she wasn't angry. She was just being assertive. Obviously, the end of last season, she flips out about Connecticut man, which was also like, why is she keeping this a secret? Why are we not learning about this? To the point where she says to Brant, I will circumcise you if you talk about this? Even though it was sci fi who brought it up on camera first She can just fly off the handle. It also doesn't feel like she feels safe around these women. One of the best scenes we got from her about her fibroids and her fertility issues was with a random friend in a random furniture store. And I think Sam, like, texted me. I was like, why are we seeing this with some random person? So I feel like there is an aspect where what you're saying of Uber doesn't feel safe with these women. She doesn't feel like she can share with these women. She obviously wanted to film her most vulnerable scene with somebody we've never even met on the show. But there are times when I feel like she is, and maybe this is where we disagree. And I'm interested in your take on it, because I feel like would she care so much about her character wasn't on camera? Like, there are times where I'm like, She's on the show to promote Uber. I feel like she's really guarded. There's a lot of conversations that happen off camera. There seemed to be from the reunion, even like she was saying, her and Brant had this very emotional talk where supposedly this rape talk had happened, but like Bren had called her, very emotional. And and Lubo was like, I'll get your car, I'll help take care of you. And I'm like, I don't feel like we've ever seen that side of Yoruba on the show though, and I believe it's there. And she has a really good heart and she's a really good person. But like I just see her flying off the handle and screaming out pigeons and like every scene. And when Andy pushes her on this, she says, I apologize that my authenticity makes you uncomfortable. Then she gets he pushes her mortgage. I'm very I'm so happy everyone is afraid of me and people should be censoring themselves around her because that's what she prefers. So I was a little bit like, this is your chance. And I have to say, Uber did amazing in this reunion. That was the only moment in the reunion where I felt like I was like, Girl, this is two seasons of you, like, flipping out in a way that, like, detracts from the story and, like, makes it all about you. Even in that moment with Abe. I mean, I was cringing during that home phone call with Abe and Aaron, so I understand Uber's reaction. I, in fairness, would have walked away just because it wasn't funny to me. It was just cringe and weird and I wanted to not be there. But her level of flipping out and being like, Some women pray for husbands and then you do this to your husband. Like, do you think she would have had that same reaction and said that to Aaron if cameras weren't around? Because I felt like she was saying that because you're doing this on camera. That's a good question. I think she would have been offended regardless because I think, again, it's just like a really hard boundary for her. I do think everyone knows that she's emotionally reactive. So I think as for example, Brandon was kind of goading her a little bit at that one dinner when she was on her phone, she wasn't really responding or reacting. Which brand fair, you know, y'all are filming, she should be engaged. But if she's not and she's not bothering everyone and she's kind of checked out, like, I feel like then people know what to do to get a response from her and they know that no one else is going to be that emotionally reactive. So I feel like sometimes people will probably go to her a little bit knowing that they can get that response. I do think she because of the because of how strong her emotions are, like when she's crying and and she's crying in a confessional, when Jenna says or Jenna or Erica, I can't remember who ever says, like when they looked at her face in that moment and she's that she's like swore to a lie that she didn't know that they believed her. I think I believe her when I see her crying and when I see her being that emotionally expressive about something so strongly, I do believe her. I can't tell whether it's a combination of things. There's probably like the angry black woman stereotype, which I know that Bryan said to her explicitly, like, you can't act like this or they're going to paint you with that. And then she tied it also to her and Mr. Connecticut, like, he's not going to be with you if you respond like that. To me, that's like a little bit of like respectability politics. Even if Brian is not going to act that way, you can't place your expectations and societal expectations on Uber, especially she's not a black American in the sense that she immigrated from Somalia. So she has a completely different experience. And the angry black woman stereotype is specific to black Americans at times. So I think There's that disconnect. But I mean, Alba is emotionally reactive and she's responsive. And I do think that she should be given the same space as anyone else, like having a tirade on it and a TV show. I don't think they're going to be seen and the same way as Uber. I had a really good example, Oh, it's from Love Island. there's a girl, Grace, who's always yelling and telling all the men, you know, she told everybody accountable. And it's great. But I kept thinking, like, if Grace was black, like she, she would not be getting this same response. So Uber is emotionally reactive. She I don't know. I don't I think she would genuinely act the same way off camera, on camera, and maybe the nurturing side of her that Brian said she got in the phone call and that we did see on the reunion, like maybe we just don't see it on the show because there's not enough moments where she's given that opportunity to be nurturing. I was emotional watching her and brand because you can tell that there was genuine love there between the two of them. And I do think she goes from hot to cold, like which is fair. She shuts down. So she was like, I don't I want to go back to them before I knew. That's a really hurtful thing to say to someone. But at the same time, she did, you know, come over and comfort her. So I think if they can get to a good place off camera, that would be good for them. It's just I don't think Ruben knows what she's going to do or say in the moment. I think she doesn't feel safe. And I think Brant also doesn't feel safe. So they have more in common than they think but they just respond to that lack of safety in different ways. it almost reminds me of like a Lisa Barlow, because I feel like she's someone who can also be emotionally reactive and we give her maybe more spaces a white woman to be hysterical I feel like there is like a different experience and I think that's solely cultural and rooted in our internalized bias. I feel like it really is like her reactivity is around, like she's assuming people are coming after her character. And again, it gets into that like for me, like that political correctness that the show kind of like sits in that feels so icky of, like everything isn't going to be as, like, tied in a bow and you're not all going to be able to look at all like, who's interested in you all looking good all the time. it's really sitting with me and it's a helpful context in me having more empathy for Yuba and understanding her reaction a little bit more that it's coming from like this protective part that feels like, Wait, no, you're not seeing me for who I know myself to be. And if you paint me as something else, like I'm going to get really mad, like I need to defend that. And this is how I know how to defend that. Yeah. if you put Yuba in Real Housewives of Atlanta, I don't think the comments she makes, the insults are nothing on that show. I mean, in even I think there was a weird accusation during the reunion of like you got violent with me and then they kind of play the footage and like you do kind of you're coming at brand. They're aggressive for sure. Yeah. And then we I mean, we saw last season her like ripped the glasses off of Erin and like, to be fair on Real Housewives of Atlanta, I wouldn't clock any of this. So it is interesting how it's like this is an interesting dynamic where we see a mixed race cast in a way and how that like affects the dynamics of the group. I think for me, I'm just like with Ruba, I'm like, because she doesn't feel safe. I don't really get that much of her story. She does want to, get married to this guy, I think, like and we'll get into Brin's comment next. But like Sy even said at the last episode, Uber's concerned what her boyfriend's going to think of her and her character. And to me, like, I think if your trigger is your character, it is really hard to be on a housewife show because you come on a housewives show and you have to know your character is going to get dragged through the mud or any reality show. Right. Like any reality show people, we live in this like really crazy society where people want to judge and pick things apart. And so if you're you're showing yourself to any capacity, you're leaving yourself open for people to make their own interpretations of you. And so getting into the like color is talk. And I've seen a lot of things on Instagram about it and it was addressed at the reunion. I actually think the reunion two parts and did an amazing job. A lot of things were covered. I was really satisfied with the reunion. I think the reunion was the best part of the whole season, but it comes up in the reunion, the comment that Brant said, I don't want you to look like an angry black woman, in fairness, also came up last reunion. So this had been in the ether and Brant had suggested that her bringing it up wasn't out of nowhere, but it didn't really get addressed in the reunion. She just apologized, which was valid, that she needed to apologize for that. But Uber's reaction is I've never had a bad experience being a black woman in the world. I get everything for free because I'm so hot. Also asked about the first season, she says Anyone who gets a taste of my anger deserves it. So I mean, I have to say, I. I love that she owned. Yeah. You know. You know, in a way, Brynn is kind of pushing her own bias on Roomba, and Uber is like, No, that's not me. But Ash, what's your take on all of this? Again, I think because Uber has those cultural differences and like she's a supermodel, she's navigating the world in a much different way than most black women. So I think It was a bit of bran reading the room, maybe like going on social media, seeing the comments and knowing that, you know, as a lighter skinned biracial black woman, like making those comments towards a darker skinned black woman like There's a discrepancy there. Even like Brian getting the comfort from everybody, their first acting instinct was to comfort her. And I think, you know, just color is in plays that plays a role in who's believed, who's comforted and like who storyline gets like more credibility. And I think Uber was a little bit dismissive of it because you don't necessarily want to. I mean, it might be hard for her to acknowledge that my life experiences might be different based on the color of my skin, or people perceive me differently or treat me differently, no matter how beautiful, tall, rich, famous she is. Like she still I don't know if she just was dismissive of it because it was like a defense mechanism. I don't know if she felt like there was enough time to get into the complexity or, you know, she's from Somalia like so you know, the population is people are there are obviously more black people in Somalia than in America. So she if she's not having she might not have grown up navigating spaces with people of different races. And so like that just might not be her experience. And so I think Bryn, I don't know, I felt like Uber dismissed it a little bit. And I also feel like Brian was projecting a little bit. So I don't think either of them, but everyone has their own experiences that make them different. So I feel like brands experience of growing up, like being raised by her, the white side of her family in a predominantly white area and like navigating being biracial and then uba's experience immigrating from Somalia, from Canada. Like, I just think both those experiences are unique and that my experience of a darker skinned black woman in the South. I'm going to react to that comment differently than Brant or Uber. And I think for Uber that's not been her experience because she's operating with a lot of pretty, pretty privilege. Like she's a supermodel. So I do applaud Brant for attempting to address the elephant in the room because not a lot of people would do that. I don't think Uber. Again, maybe it's a cultural difference. I don't think Uber's like that's not my experience, but it is experience for many black women. So I'm glad Bryn brought it up. Yeah, I mean, it's a moment of self-reflection for brand. Like even wherever it's coming from, almost like doesn't matter as much as, her being willing to like acknowledge like that wasn't like I shouldn't have said that. That's not totally my experience because I am biracial and light skinned and to have ownership over that, you know, for someone who really struggles with self-reflection, it's nice to see that. I don't think a lot of people talk about colourism specifically and definitely within like in conversation with people who are different complexions. I feel like it took me a long time to even have conversations with people that I'm very close with about colourism how it affects like how you navigate the world. So I think Uber was dismissive in the moment and I've seen I mean, it's a hard, complex issue to talk about. getting to the main finale of it all the sexual assaults. We learn about Brent's sexual assaults. I would say midseason when she's with I believe and correct me if I'm wrong with her book ghostwriter and I actually, after watching that episode, had to Google it because I was texting Sam because I was doing a little bit of a catch up to like hadn't seen like three or four episodes. And I was like, I'm a little lost. I didn't feel that the way they told it in the edit. Fully made sense. And when I Googled it, there was a People magazine article that like detailed all of it and it was like way more clear. And that was initially just kind of frustrating to me because I'm like, okay, we hear this story, but we're not really getting the full story. But basically her story, which she tells again at the reunion, which was more clear that she was dating this guy who's seemingly wealthy and powerful and he assaulted her. She was totally stunned. I think in the People magazine article, she talks about how like she's in her mid-thirties, she's smart, independent, successful. How could this happen to her? Like this happens to teenagers or young people or someone in a back alley? Like, she couldn't process that this would happen to her in the way that happened. And she had gone home and just took a shower and tried to pretend like it didn't happen. And it took, which is a very normal thing for women who have just been sexually abused, like sexually assaulted or raped. That is very normal for them to do to go into like a frozen self-protection. Like, get this off of me. Get it off of my body. Like the idea of, like, I need to go to a hospital and do a rape kit is not like that's not always where women like. Not always possible for women. And to be fair, like, if what she's saying about this guy that he's wealthy and powerful, I mean, I would see that she would have no choice in some sense, you know. Look at Harvey Weinstein. He only got taken out because there was such a number of women. And it is unfortunate. I mean, when I read the article, you know, it just made me feel like this guy is definitely probably another Harvey Weinstein. Like if he to bring he's done it to other women. And this is and actually they've been doing more studies on rape kits and the testing, a lot of the rape kits. And there used to be this perception that There are stranger rapists. And then there are, you know, rapists, rapists, acquaintance, rapists, like someone, you know, when when they started doing a lot of these rape kit tests, a lot of the, you know, acquaintance rapes, actually, the DNA pinged on a lot of stranger rapes. And what you've seen is this is just a pattern. and I think also there's some crazy statistics, too, about if you assaulted one woman, like statistics are assaulted many. I mean, they've done studies in like frat houses where the guys, you know, freely admit they rape women because they don't even see what they are doing is rape. So rape culture is very prevalent and damaging. And Bren, you know, is reaction is, you know, well and even post a MeToo society where we think that like people believe women's voices, like the more powerful like the more powerful a man the like. As a woman, how would you ever or feel safe coming out against someone who could hire the most expensive lawyers and, you know, has all this financial resource behind them. And in truth, like the one crime that it's like the the person who's really on trial is the victim is rape. Right. Like there's no other crime where you're putting a victim on trial like that. That is what it is like. Do we believe you? And I and I understood where Aaron was coming from, the reunion being like, I'm so angry that this guy is probably still out there doing it, although I don't like the way she. Right. Dan handled it with Bryn. I totally disagree. I don't like that she said it that way because I feel like she was doing a lot of like unconscious victim blaming and putting it on Bren to be responsible to stop this guy. And that comes from like a victim blaming mentality, like not understanding that like actually Bren going and put pressing charges on this guy does not mean it will stop him and will likely be more painful and more consequences to her than it will be to him. And that comes from a place of like Aaron's privilege and Aaron like and you see it even in the finale episode that Aaron is the one that like, it felt like was almost like, I believe her, but Brynn lies. It's like, well, then, do you believe her? You put that out, and now you're telling her she should go, like press charges, They'll show this footage and be like, Well, look, she's a liar. But I felt very off put. I felt like Aaron was the villain of this reunion. I felt like that moment made me like I was like, Get this woman. I don't want to look at this woman like she clearly like has such a small window of like what she sees in the world. And yeah, I don't know. It made me very angry. Yeah. That's one thing that I do blame the show for is because of Brian's case for the sexual assault, like painting her as a liar. At the same time, it's like the storyline is centering around her assault, which is why I think they had to do their due diligence and say, like, everyone here believes you and believes your account. Because I think that two sides point is that she just accused Brian of weaponizing that to attack Uber's character, which I don't think Brian intentionally did. I think she was already like a bounder. He'd been crossed. She felt unsafe. She made the comment that Uber knew and made the comment because she wasn't feeling safe. I don't think she thought in her mind that everyone's going to attack Uber's character and question her the way that they did. I think we are like you said in a post MeToo, there is such a huge, huge push for women to come forward with their stories. And it felt like our cultural consciousness was moved forward in a very meaningful way. And now a lot of that with the state of. The world is now regressing. And even for a progressive show such as Real Housewives, like like to Jenny's point, I think a lot of that culture is just like baked into our society. And so, unfortunately, I do think by painting Brian in a negative light with the petty things that are semantics, then, you know, pushes her like to paint her as a liar when she's telling a very real story. And it just doesn't sit well with me that, you know, that like you said, that if she were to pursue a case like this could be used as evidence when it's a show that's heavily edited. I do feel like Brynn telling her story. At all. Like that is something that I think is so brave and courageous that she doesn't have to pursue anything, like you said, because of all the things that could happen, how much hurt and things that could come to her from pursuing it. I think even just sharing with the world was such a brave moment for her and that it helped so many people. I just am disappointed, I guess, that the the way that they handled it and if the conflict between Brendan Hooper had not been the central point of or the climax of the season, like I think they could have done better by. I mean supporting her in telling her story. just to recap, kind of what happens is Uber says a comment, maybe you slept with someone on the show. It gets twisted because Bryn brings up blowjobs for no reason and Uber like refuses to say. I said the thing about blowjobs fair. She didn't say that. I just think the whole comment and itself, maybe she slept with someone to get on the show, which is bad on its own. Like for me I just felt like. But then again, it's an insult. I would have heard on Real Housewives of Atlanta and it would have just gone away. I think it doesn't fly on Real Housewives of New York because no one really goes that low. I feel like Uber could have just apologized and moved on, which she does do very genuinely in the reunion. I think whether or not she knew about Brin's sexual assault to me didn't change how I felt about that comment. Me personally and I don't know, you know, I'd love to hear your guys's take, but for me, I felt like the comment was tone deaf and and rude and anti-feminist without anything to do with the sexual assault. It didn't change anything for me. I also felt like when she made the allegation of she makes this allegation just to two of the jasso raquel was ci there. I think general jenna. Jenna was there that uber knows that she was assaulted. So how could she make this comment that because she knows she was assaulted and then jasso goes to Cuba seemingly when cameras are about to like shut down. And Uber just has this, like, over-the-top, insane reaction. And in fairness, Uber is screaming in Brent's face, You walk in, bitch, you fucking liar, bitch. And to me, my initial reaction was like, Holy crap, if I just learned a friend of mine have been sexually assaulted, I wouldn't care about anything else but making sure that they were okay and thinking about their feelings and not mine in that moment. We've gotten into a little bit why that would be maybe different for Uber, but in general, I felt like as a production in a show like that allegation that Brant made against Uber for me was a false equivalency. I didn't feel that her saying Uber knew about my sexual assault really matter that much to me. If we had just ended the show there of her saying that, you know, they leave and I mean, it would have been, I guess, difficult to totally cover up this huge fight that they had. But if they'd ended it there and we'd picked up at the reunion and Brennan said, This is how I told her, but I now have realized she might not have heard it, she might not have clocked it. Net Uber would have said, I did not know, I would have believed Uber and I would have been fine with it. I don't think I, I don't think I would have left that finale being like, who was this terrible person? Like, I think there's a weird false equivalency online that's like, this was going to ruin. I think at the reunion, Sy says that would have ruined Uber. And I'm like, maybe I'm just not getting something that everybody else is getting. But like, I wouldn't have thought anything of Uber. I would have thought Brian does this, she spins things. She obviously misinterpreted Uber didn't know. Even if she did, did or didn't know, she shouldn't have made that comment anyways. Like, let's just move on and like let's talk about what the heck Britney's going through because that's, you know, is interesting to me and plays into layers of her character that we've seen. But I just think what happened to Brian in the meanwhile of all the women saying she's a liar. And I think Erin did have the most egregious interview line in that section where she's like, I believe what she's saying, but she's a liar. And it's like, okay to me that ruined for me, Bryn, because now Bryn is labeled a liar. If she was ever to pursue any legal charges or anything against this guy, they have all the evidence they need to prove that she's a liar. So to me, there was a weird false equivalency where all the women kind of rallied around Uber, saying that this allegation would have ruined her reputation. And I didn't see that. Whereas like in turn they ruined Brin's reputation and she didn't get kind of any acknowledgment on that. But I very much agree with what you're saying. Like, I had a very similar reaction, so I'd be curious what Ashley thinks, but I just felt like I didn't understand. Like, even calling it like, an allegation felt like. No, she's sharing an experience that she's having that she thought this was what happened. And, yeah, it was like, messed up. And there's like definitely repair that she needs to do with Uber around like making that connection of like she knew and she still said this because clearly that's like not what happened and I don't think I think as soon as like Uber was like I didn't hear that I believed her, right? Like I didn't even need her to have that big reaction. I was like, like, okay. But it is concerning that like, yeah, her motive was more like, I need to defend my character after I just learned that my friend was sexually assaulted. And to me, that does kind of speak to your character. Hmm. I don't know. Um. It's difficult because I do. I think I keep going back to this comment like Bryan weaponizing her experience to to assassinate Uba's character and I'm probably misquoting which is a big no no for them. But I think I'm sure there's been many misquotes here. I think that what you meant when she said it, the the shock. And when Brand said that Uba knew and still made the comment. I think the way that the other women reacted was so strong and that they felt like that they I do think that they would have cut off. And like I do, based on how they respond, I do think UBA would have been cut off from the group possibly, you know, taken off the show. I don't know. I, I felt like they were really strongly reacting because I cannot fathom if Uba had that information, why would she make that comment? And I do think in any time I have an outsized reaction to something. I know that it's from something else. So it does not make sense for Uber to have that outside reaction without there being some. There's something else there. There's no way that you have that strong of a reaction based off whether or not people believe, if you knew this information, I don't know what that is from. But to me, you know, I do think your initial response would be to see, oh, wow, I've just heard my friend have this information. So I am unclear like I am unclear about her response. I do think the other women, I do think they were strongly going to complete this type of brand and like dismiss Uber if they found out that she knew the information and was still saying what she said about Brand also. And I don't know how to because Brand's experience was so traumatic and a lot of her coping mechanisms are to, like, laugh or to joke. Maybe I don't. I feel like I want to hold space for her in her experience. And I do think that because Uber's reaction was as strong as it was, it kind of then overtook the. Conversation and the way that the story was produced and the way that everyone responded to it. We don't know the questions that the women are being asked and the items. I feel like the narrative then became about the incident between the two women and not about the sexual assault, which is a shame. And I do think. I don't. I just, I don't know now walked away with more questions than answers. But when we were DMing, I felt strongly. And then, I mean, if you if I looked on Twitter and threads like I saw a lot of discourse about in Uber particularly, and the distinctions of who's supported, who's comforted and all of that. So I was trying to hold space for that. But you definitely Jenny helped me understand or at least like recognize that I feel like they diminished the impact of the assault story. And I'm having all the women question her character off of comment again when she does say she was under the influence of alcohol when she was talking. I don't think it was like. Her intent was not this villainous. Let me destroy or assassinate this person's character. Had Brynn, if she had known that they were going to take it that way, I don't think she would have said it. I guess there's two things to be true. I want Huber to have comfort, and I want to feel safe. And I want to be believed. But also, I do think. Brand story of assault was diminished. And I feel like it became this argument between women. This again, it goes back to, I guess, my core issue with the entire show, which is it became this petty issue between the women when it's like, okay, the real villain here is, is the guy, the rapist and I totally think you hit it on the head that something else was going on. Was Uber rented like a Rolling Stone article where I almost feel like she alluded that Lopez maybe had her own experiences. I don't want to say that Raquel in the reunion kind of pulls her aside. And again, there's some kind of illusion that maybe she had her own experience. It's very common. And I and I think what you're seeing also is like we as women and how our reaction to rape culture is because it is so common I think women internalize that in different ways, too, and react to that in different ways. And we kind of saw that play out. And also with Bryn the next morning kind of being like, I am fine and her compartmentalization of it and then being like, Uber is not fine and she's fine. So we need to take care of Uber and not print it. I will say it was very dark. I was not okay when I was demi ash at all that morning. And so thank you. I feel like we had like an amazing conversation where we had like, agreed, disagreed, but like in the best way. And I was like able to process why I was so upset about it. But now, like looking back, I do feel like it was a really interesting. Display of these dynamics. And that was interesting to see on camera. I just think the audience obviously had a strong reaction because it was so triggering and in dark. But Sam, I need your like psychological take on all of that. Well, I think it's really I'm really happy that you said that thing, Ash, about like something must have been, like, deeper happening for you, but because it helps me hold a lot more space and empathy for her reaction in that moment of and the way that like trauma responses and I don't you know again we're not going to name a trauma that we don't know but like, you know, just being a woman in the world, like, can feel unsafe and it can feel like our experience in the world can be so minimized. And it's interesting, and I think what feels so yucky about this is what you guys are saying is that instead of it being like, we are a sisterhood and this is a place that we're all safe to come and share our experiences and feel held and supported, it becomes this Olympics of who's lying, who's the villain, who's the bad guy. And just to piggyback off of what Jenny said, it's like none of them are villains, right? Like, if if we're really coming in sisterhood, they're not like the villain is in the house, the villain is outside the house. And how do you come together and create a safe space to empower each other so you feel a little more powerful going out there and doing something like, okay, I do want to press charges to get this guy and I feel good about it because all these women came behind me and we're like, We believe you and this is terrible. And like, the men are the problem. And I think we see that a little like when Erin came out with her abortion story, which I think was like a highlight of the season, because I felt like that was a really beautiful moment and something that like then Jenna told her story about having an abortion and like, I think all the women were able to kind of rally around Aaron and be like, wow, this is like, this is beautiful and we want to empower you around this feeling and this experience. And it's, you know. It almost makes me think about like Vanderpump Rules and like when you know, the whole season after Tom cheated on Ariana, which could have been a moment of like sisterhood and like everyone coming together to support Ariana and just being like, it's us girls now against the boys. Finally it's the girls against the boys, which is what we want to see. And it wasn't that right? Like it was it was like, we're all going to vie for who's the bad guy here and who's doing the bad behavior and who's right and who's wrong and which, like, only kind of feeds the patriarchy, right? Like this feeds men. This helps them. When women are pitted against each other, it makes men look good. And it continues the narrative that, like Freud started many years ago, that women are hysterical And so that's why we need to put men like Trump in office instead of Kamala. And I could, like, go on and I'm going to take a breath there. You know how psychological that was. But. Oh, okay. I have a question for both of you. Do we think Uber and the ladies would have had the same reaction if that whole trip, that whole interaction was not on camera. That was just a girls trip. Do we think that the allegation that Brant said and I say allegation and quotes now that Uber knew would have been such a big deal if it wasn't for the cameras? Because I felt like a lot of the reaction and maybe not on Uber's part, because I feel like maybe you guys have turned the tide. For me, this is kind of like just her personality that she would have reacted that way. So you've given me some new things to think about with Uber, but for the rest of the ladies it just felt like, again, it goes back to the core problem with the show. Like they're so concerned with cultivating how they appear. And I felt like they couldn't just let it go and go to the reunion and like talk about it like they had to put and I'll just be like, this was all fucked up. Like, all of this was fucked up. And like, we're in, we're so sorry. And Uber, are you okay? And can we just, like, support you both and not make it about who lied and who didn't lie? And, like, do we even need to get stuck in that mud? Well, I think the show when they when they. Produced it and aired it the way they did. When it you know, whenever you feel like they're breaking the fourth wall, you're getting this unseen footage or stuff that wasn't supposed to be there. There's this layer of like excitement. And, you know, she's sitting on the couch with production and they're doing all these things to make the incident like the focal point of this season. And it's more about the fight between Oupa and Bran and then, you know, saying that he was violent and then that, you know, whether or not she was actually I don't like I can't really recall if she was like actually in her face or anything like that. But we've seen physical fights on reality TV shows, and that was not that. So then you have the narrative of like, well, now she's angry, now she's violent, and it's so layered. It's not even just a singular. There's so many different. I guess there are so many different issues in context and ways to be aware that that change, that incident. It's not even really about a single incident. There's lots of things to unpack and navigate. Do I think Uber would have reacted the same way? Yes, because I do genuinely think she was worried about how the other women viewed her. Do I think the other women were very calculated? Well, it was how it was shown, right. We don't know how many questions they were asked. The narrative that was shown was very this is what happened, like giving us a timeline, making it seem like it was like a big. It was a big incident. But by making sure people I said this, I'm on this side, I said this, I'm on the right theater. We're cool even like that. I knew she was lying like that, so heavy for her. So I do think the other women were conscious of, you know, it's very it's going to be very important what side I land on. The only person who I don't think was calculated in that is just so I think she was genuinely like Ebony and somebody to be there for her. I'm going to make sure she's okay. And I also think that incident was more about the other little goading and things that have happened. You was in the small room. I know how I like. I'm a person. When I go on a group trip, I'm going to be in a room by myself. I'm going to have my own space. Uber's in the small town, like there's already other stuff that was embedded into this being the big explosive thing. But I do think everybody was like very conscious of how I'm going to be perceived depending on which side of the argument I'm on. And then they had time to, like, see people's reactions. You know, something like Brian's post after the episode aired and Queens of Bravo, there was like comments that Aaron made or comments by Bravo one of those comments that Aaron or that other girls were making under the Post. It's very like, I know the public opinion is this way, so I'm going to make my comments that way. So I do think the social media activity and perhaps how people were on the reunion did play into what they think. So I'll say I think Brennan Hubert end had the most genuine reaction that everybody's curated because they want to fall on the right side of history with what the public opinion is. Yeah, I feel like Erin social media, she should have stayed off social media, especially knowing that she said that after the reunion. And the reunion kind of surprised me because I was expecting it to end with them still fractured and it kind of had them come together in a way. And then to know that Erin made that comment, it's like, why? I think it was beautiful at the reunion just to see that that moment like that was like on the break and Yuba and Bren kind of sit back and get to have just a conversation between them that felt like I remember getting a little teary eyed, like it felt really genuine. It felt like they were both being genuine to each other. It felt like there was genuine love there. Why do we see this, like, on the show? Like, this is such a beautiful moment of repair where they're both, like, taking some form of accountability. They're acknowledging the core problem here. They're they're working towards a repair and acknowledging like, this doesn't mean all better, but like, this is a step, and we can figure out where to go from here. And it felt like that left an opening of like, okay, maybe do want to see what happens next season. And I want to see like, can we see some change in the dynamic between these two and the dynamic? But like there was some hope there. But then, yeah, we get all this social media stuff and I'm like, okay, maybe not. Like getting into like where we see the show going forward. Like Uber lives in Connecticut now. She's with, you know, her billionaire. And I mean, I've seen pictures of them and they're ridiculously so hot I could not get anything but happy for the billionaire boyfriend and slightly jealous. Everyone's kind of saying Brant shouldn't come back though. Like, let's be honest, Burn is the most interesting thing about the show right now. Erin, I think is a good housewife. I don't think she'll always be the fan favorite. I think at times she will be a villain. But you need that. I agree that Jasso is the MVP of the show like Jezebel. I could tell that crowd size has given me nothing, but Raquel was a good even and shy like I know we didn't talk about her that much, but like at the reunion, she is like the most black and white of any of them. Just like Britney's done. I'm done with brand. Like, it's very. Just like, once I have a moral judgment of someone I like, hold it to such an extreme that, yeah, like, it doesn't make for good TV if you're not able to make some space for the gray and the messiness of relationships. Well, and I think from her and, you know, she doesn't bring a lot really of her personal life, but also it's like, well, ending the reunion on that kind of felt like, okay, well, who you even cool with in this group? Like, who are you even friends with? Like, I guess Uber would you like I think you're right. Like there is an aspect of Cuba where I feel like the fact that she is so concerned with her character makes it difficult to be spicy and interesting in a housewife show. But I saw a total different side of her at the reunion. If I could see that side, the Uber that feels safe, I would really want to see more of her. just in general, I think housewives who are not willing to share parts of their lives like that should be like Jenna, too. I think she's a victim of this as well, where she's like, my partner doesn't want to be on TV. And I feel a kind of similarity to Lindsey Hubbard. Like, if if you if you're if you're protecting a part of your life, then like we don't really get to know you. And so this doesn't feel real anymore. And the reality of it, like, feels like it should be like a contract. Bailey said, Well, and Brynn being single and. All the other women being married, that produces kind of a weird dynamic where, like, I'm interested in Brent's weird relationship with Gideon, but we don't get enough of it to really understand. And then all the other women being married, it's just kind of like, well, Jessi's really the only one bringing any issues with her marriage up either. So. But I do like Raquel. I love Mel. I think they were great additions. I think she fills a great role on the show. Jenna is kind of giving me nothing. I don't really get why she's like, the centerpiece of the show in any way, because she's my end. But. And that way that I feel like they feel like they have to have her as like an anchor and they brought her in as like, this is somebody people know. Right. But is it getting any mileage at this point? I didn't know who Jenna Lyons was. I knew her there, like. Like I knew who she was. I knew that like the J. Crew, I think because She's like, actually famous. And if she has a close relationship with Andy and she has the pool, I think Raquel, if I read somewhere that Raquel would not have done it without Jenna. So I kind of feel like she has an air of celebrity that the others don't. I don't think she's going anywhere unless she doesn't want to do it anymore. True. Because her fiancee, wife, whatever, doesn't want to be on the show. And it was interesting in the reunion, she was like, because she's too controversial and she says too many controversial things. And that just, like, made me want her to be on the show. Right. I do think adding like I knew her girlfriend more than I knew her. I was more familiar with Kasper than I was with Joe. So what's the story? What? She's not really famous. Like photographer. She photographs a lot of celebrities. She did a lot of like be back in the day before. She was like really famous and doing like high end stuff. She did a lot of like indie rock star photography. So that hit like two of my interests at the time in the early aughts. But yeah, like I was very familiar with her. Like she was known for doing all these really cool photoshoots. Her photos are really like authentic. They're not big studio shoots. They were always in like kind of environmental places. You should check out her work. It's cool, right? Get her on the show, Sam. CALLER, I don't know her personally. You live in New York. Let's make it happen. Sarcastic. I would like to see some of Jesse's friends just because she is we've we've acknowledged her as the MVP, but something we've talked about in this pod before is like you have summer house, which also takes place in New York City. They're the show that does diverse cast. The best out of probably all the Bravo shows to me is like, why don't you mine from that show? And like we've talked a lot about Lindsay Hubbard, maybe Page I don't know. Page being single again, I kind of feel like she should stay in summer house. Mm hmm. Let's bring back Ebony. Is. She's single, mom. It she's so interest. She's got some interesting stuff going on. Yeah, she's doing what Brant wants to do. And Ebony is on Shade Room like at least once a month saying something controversial. So bring it on. Yeah, I do think Lindsay should go to Ronnie because like a baby in the summer house. But we need to see that relationship. I'm sorry. Especially if right now it's falling apart. Like we saw she put on Instagram that the baby was getting shot and he was there because people said they broke up. But that doesn't mean they're together like a dad going to his babies. Shots like that shouldn't like necessarily speak to relationship status. But it's interesting. I think that's the like he would only show up if they're together with it. That's a good point that that's our standard. But also like she is just so weird. Like you unfollow the guy in the morning and then in the afternoon you post him on your social media is going to get shot. And how do we know that wasn't Karl? It was just a hand. Oh, God. I'm just like, oh, my God. I still kind of think Lindsay and Karl could get back together. I really I do not. I mean, we'll see. Let's see how this plays out. I think she's still out. I think she might get back with him if he was. Well, like I think he wouldn't really. Carol, I don't see it. Ash, you got to come back for summer house. It's. I am finally caught up. I'm so excited, my friend and I. We did. We watched all of summer house in Southern Charm to get like to get to the current seasons. So I'm finally excited to be watching it live for both of them at the same time with all this drama. So what is your take on the a Craig and Paige breakup? I'm really sad. Even though the signs are all there this whole time, I, I don't listen to get described like that. But I was for some reason that day and I was like, oh my God, they're they broke up and it was like 8:00 in the morning and I was trying to like text my friend and I didn't see anywhere on Instagram or Twitter thread or anything and I'm like, Wait a minute. I was one of the first to listen to you for that. So that's amazing. I was like, Wait, they really broke up. I think it's sad him on watch what happens live makes me sad. I want to say if I had to pick, I would be Team Paige. But I do think every time something else comes out it sways me. But I really was proud of him and I think I like Summer House more than Southern charm, so I'm going to write for my people in Summer House. Amanda and Kyle. I think Kyle is mad about this British thing. He was just like, This is a great time to do that and I'm pretty happy to be able to trash talk to other people side with him. But I guess I'm Team Paige, but they weren't a good fit, so it's sad. You know, I love Notre Dame here. I feel like this is only getting messy because they're reality people. I think if they weren't reality and this was like a real relationship outside of television, they would have just broken up, done their healing stuff Lee and like it would have just been like this didn't work out. Like we really wanted it to work. We really loved each other, but like we did want different things. And maybe that did make Paige fall out of love with him and want to be with other people like that may be true. I think that's like what he said on watch what happens live like she didn't want to do it was she didn't want to do life with me. But I think it's just getting messy because it's like, you know, it's all being like televised. And then there's all these people that feel like they have to pick a side and have to, like, villainize one or the other and. Right. Having to watch it also. That's a part of it too, because like they're still together on Southern Charm and we haven't seen Summer House yet, which is like this. And they're still going to be together all summer. Right. And they go, they haven't had the reunion for either show yet. So they're they can't have a clean break until he's all that goes away. Right. I mean, yeah, as a person, I feel like I've been in a long term relationship and the break ups are messy because like even as a woman, like you're going through losing the love of your life, trying to figure out, like all this society pressures, I think Paige has gone into a lot of that on that original Gigli squad and was it was like interesting and so I'm team it's messy as a person and like I just hope the best for both of them and they made the right choice. As a reality TV producer I'm team Craig current it is my fear because. Okay well him on watch what happens live explained it a little better for me like just as far as the timeline and what happened and the specifics and I loved that messiness. Like I feel like we got PR Paige on her giggly squad that was like we broke up. It's amicable. We had this beautiful conversation and did it or not. And like I. I mean, I bought it hook, line and sinker for sure. But then Craig was like, messy Craig like I was in Toronto, got a phone call. She broke up with me, I'm in her apartment, then she comes home. Then we really talked and then and it tracked a little bit more because she was kind of saying he was still doing press and acting like they were together when they weren't. I also think I think he fully hoped they were going to get back together and he might have been a little bit in like a sad day Lulu place, you know, like, and it's like that's that's normal in a grief process to do this like, bargaining thing of like, well, maybe like we don't tell anyone and we don't make it live. Like there's a chance we could, like, work it out. And Paige talks about on the Gigli Squad episode how she was like having panic attacks. And to me that was like especially for like a woman, like I was like, oh yeah, she's definitely like going through it. So, I don't know. I'm really excited for Summer House and I'm really excited. To watch all the messiness. You know, hopefully they pick up cameras and she would page the way they did with Craig. And most of all, we're excited for Ash to come back and talk about it with us. I'm just really happy because I'm watching it live. My only regret is that I did not watch Season nine and Southern Charm in real time because that was crazy. Well, thank you guys all for listening to this crazy episode. But also thanks for coming here because there were so many layered issues that we were like, okay, we need you to come on and give your perspective. And I don't think it would have been nearly as constructive without you. Not at all. You helped me create a bigger perspective of the situation. So I really appreciate your insight always. Thank you. I'm a fan first and I love y'all's work, so anytime. Great. I'll see you next time.