Emmy Sharrett from Southern Hospitality with Jana Firestone

This week, we're welcoming therapist, author, and host of The Curious Life podcast, Jana Firestone, to break down Emmy Sharett’s extreme emotional reactions on Southern Hospitality. From the explosive accusations about her using store credit for dresses to her obsession with being a “trophy wife,” we’re diving into what’s really driving Emmy’s behavior. Plus, we unpack those messy cheating rumors and why this might be the wildest season yet. Tune in now for hot takes, psychological insight, and all the Bravo drama you love!

Check out The Curious Life Podcast: 

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-curious-life/id1458438429

Follow on IG: 

https://www.instagram.com/jana.firestone/

Chapters

• 3:52 Intro Jana Firestone
• 9:42 Intro Emmy from Southern Hospitality
• 28:57 Is this the right career for her?
• 34:15 ADHD
• 40:11 The cheating rumors
• 47:58 Body Dysmorphia
• 57:07 Her future on the show
• 1:07:47 Tamra Judge quitting RHOC
• 1:11:43 Paige and Craig breakup
• 1:18:22 Did Kyle get Hannah get fired?
• 1:22:39 The Curious Life podcast

Transcript

Hi, everyone. Welcome back. I'm here with Sam, a resident therapist, and today we have a very special guest. Joining us is Yana Firestone. She is a Also a therapist. Sam's got competition today. We're gonna get double therapists. Um, she is an author of the amazing book, Plot. Twist and a pop culture analyst so she's got all kinds of tea that she's ready to drop and she's also the host of the Curious Life Podcast. welcome Yana and tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you so much. Um, I'm so excited to be here. This is my happy place talking Bravo and reality TV and You know, I came from a background of being a therapist. You know, I've been doing this for over eighteen years now. And, you know, it's very weird to go from Being one version of yourself where you're sitting in the therapy chair working with clients one-on-one or in groups and then Putting your own thoughts and feelings about other people in a public setting. It's a little bit incongruous and it's, um, taking a bit of getting used to, but. You know, I just feel like this is all about human behavior, right? And we all watch reality TV because we're invested in the people and the dynamics and the behaviors and Looking at what we would do and what we wouldn't do. And so I kind of love mixing these two parts of my world together and bringing it out for conversation. I'm curious what you think about like why therapists like to watch Bravo because I know like for myself and a lot of the supervisees I work with they all talk about how like reality or Bravo reality TV and Is so like soothing for them and it seems like it should be the opposite because you're coming from like sessions where you're dealing with intense issues and different things. And then to go watch TV where you're also seeing like intense dynamics play out. And I'm curious what your thoughts on that are. Well, I think it really comes down to escapism. You know, it's, it's not, I mean, if this is anyone's real reality, you know, then there's probably something wrong with that. The friendship group or, you know, the place that we're in. It's so far removed from certainly my reality and I started watching this Genre, you know, twenty something years ago when I was working in really intense jobs. So I was working at the coroner's court. I was working with victims of crime. I was working in child protection. And back then it was a lot of, there was a lot of crime TV, you know, crime TV shows fictionalized that was kind of the only thing on. And I just, it was way too close to work and I just needed something really light, something that was, didn't require much brain power. I didn't have to do much thinking about. So that's where it started. But I think now... Reality TV is so different than it was twenty years ago. Everybody is really savvy. The cast know what they, what they're doing. They know what they're in for. And we then know what we're expecting. And so it's not a brainless activity. I do think Kate Casey talks about. Reality TV actually being for smart people because we're not watching it just blindly anymore. We are talking about it with our friends and On podcasts and listening to people trying to unpack all of that behavior behind what we're seeing. Is this real? Is this not? You know, what's playing in the background with this dynamic and that person? We're all kind of putting on quasi-therapeutic hats, I think, as viewers and I think for therapists it's just like a happy mix of It not being real, we're not responsible for these people. We can make sweeping judgy statements that we would absolutely never dare go near in session. Uh, and so you can kind of use some of your knowledge and expertise and do it in a safe way where you can be a little bit wrong about it all. Oh, I love that. I really love that. Yeah, and on the producing end, it's like, it's just interesting to talk about, you know, having started out in this, um, industry like seventeen eighteen years ago. When you guys started being therapists, really. Um, you know, it's evolved so much and the cast are so savvy now, especially on Bravo. So it's interesting to talk about like that dynamic of How much the the show plays into people's actions or how they react. And I often find that they don't as much as people think they do. Interesting. Which let, that'll bring us into the topic for today because I think that's going to be something that comes up a lot, breaking the fourth wall as they say in the business, Today we're gonna cover Emmy from Southern Hospitality. Somebody that we've been fascinated by. I think we've mentioned on this podcast a few times that we are Obsessed with watching what seemed to be a mental breakdown every single week this season. Um, but yeah. I think Emmy is a perfect example of what you're saying, Yana, of like. As a therapist, like, I can kind of, like, watch everything that's happening with her and her relationship with her emotions, her relationship with her relationship, and I, like, Could put on a therapist hat and look at it and I can also just be like, oh, wow, here are all like... Texting Jenny all the judgments I have of like, this girl seems so unwell. Yeah, totally. If there was a transcript of all the messages that I've sent over the years of my personal thoughts about cast members from these shows. I mean, I don't think I would be in the business anymore, but you know, this has to be a safe place. We're, we're not coming here as experts making diagnoses or anything like that. So we, obviously that goes without saying this is. Um, a place where we get to kind of play with our thoughts and ideas and some of our concerns. But I think that's so interesting, Jenny, about the The production perspective, because I think as viewers, we are so aware of production and the involvement of producers To such a, such a level that we never were before. We used to just watch these shows and think, oh my god, how could that happen? And what, what happened there? And How could they do that? And how could he say that? But now I feel like a lot of us would be saying to each other, but do you think the producer told him to say that? Or do you think she's doing that because she knows she's got to get airtime or she's got to do... You know, this or that. But I feel like Southern hospitality is one of the rare gems in the whole Bravo sphere at the moment that feels authentic in the way Vanderpump Rules did at the very beginning. And it doesn't feel really produced and, and, and in the same way that Vanderpump Rules did at the very end. I feel like when Southern Hospitality premiered, You know, people were saying it's crazy and I tried to get into it and I remember feeling like it feels like these kids want to be Vanderpump Rules. And they're trying like too hard sometimes. So the first season definitely threw me off. So I actually had to go back and watch some of the first season. And just to remember Emmy and Will's like backstory. And then season two, I just felt like the casting was much stronger. I think that they focused on the right people. I didn't even necessarily feel like Maddie and Trevor's cheating scandal was that interesting, which now we'll get into how that came up again. But this third season, I think you're right. Like all the elements came together. It felt very authentic. We've known these people a little bit more. I do think they're messy and they like to stir the pot and they know that there's a short shooting window like they shoot this show in three months so it's gotta happen or not. Um, whereas I think when you see on Southern Charm how slow moving it is, they have a little bit of a longer shooting window. They've been doing the show for a lot longer. Um, they know that the audience is attached to them just as people. So they don't have to bring as much. And I think I'd be interested next season on Southern Hospitality. If we would see a little bit more of that because I'm very invested in like Maddie and Joe. I don't know why, but now I feel like I ship them. So there's a couple people where I'm like, I'll just tune in for them. Yes. Getting to that point is hard on a Bravo show because you have to bring a level of drama while getting people to like them. but anyways, I wanted to start with first impressions of Emmy from that season, the first two seasons, because Um, she, at least for the first season, I really liked her, but they were a little bit of a side character. They weren't, main character energy. Well, actually Will was more of a main character the first season and even in the Nick Vile podcast they talk about how initially he was the one cast and Emmy wasn't. He was like in a relationship with somebody else and then as they were like Doing whatever they do when they're like figuring out a show, Emmy kind of kept showing up and was working for Leva's bars and so it made sense to bring her in since she was dating Will. So I think that's really interesting because and will kind of come like his initial season and it's hard to talk about Emmy without talking about will at this point right like it feels like a package deal. He's coming in with this, like, internal conflict of do I be a lawyer or do I, um, live this, like, nightlife that, like, clearly actually seemed like it really excited him and brought him to life and brought him joy and brought out this, like, Part of him and Emmy's role kind of in what I felt her role in that first season was was coming in and be like no you need to be a lawyer I want to be a lawyer's wife you need to like go to law school like that's what needs to happen. And I thought that was really interesting. We also like meet Emmy's parents, so she must have been somewhat of a main character because we do meet her mom and her sisters in that first season. And she talks about how her dad is in finance, travels a lot, isn't around that much. And so it's interesting to have that background coming into like where we are now in that relationship. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that plays into the messaging around, you know, all of the cast having an issue with Emmys. So-called goal of being this, you know, lawyer's wife and feeling like she's so stuck on this idea of upgrading her life. And I heard her in an interview, it might have been Gabbing with Gibb. Um, from a few months ago now, I think. And she was saying, look, I don't know how to say this without sounding gross about it, but I grew up in a very privileged life. And my family has more than enough money. Will is not coming with a trust fund. I'm not looking to upgrade my financial position through Will. he comes with me on our family holidays to the Bahamas and skiing and all of those things. So I think she feels a little bit like everybody is, is behaving as if I'm this gold digger with my eyes set on the prize. And I don't know what it's like in the States, but you know, being a lawyer is lucrative job, but it's not exactly like, we're not talking about Jeff Bezos or, you know, this is not like something that you would need to be clinging onto because you're. Life and money depends on it. So I think that was her point that everybody's really stuck on this being a financial and status kind of thing for her, but that's not where she is. I do think it's the saddest thing though. I do think, I do think she sees it. I, I think you're probably right in that it's less about finance because even in that first season, she talks about how her. Dad pays her bills. I mean, she does make some mention of like, I'm not going to work at Republic forever and I can't afford this lifestyle on my own. So she is a little bit like stepping on her own toes there based on like what she said in the first season. And I think. Both Emmy and Will are good at like putting on like the PR face or putting on like, this is what I want you to believe and yet like there's all this evidence of like but wait what about when you said that or when you did that or like. Now you're putting on this like PR face, which is easier to put on in an interview than it is in actual interaction with people. Um, so. But I less feel that her motivation is around money and more around status and. like she talks about wanting to be a trophy wife like she names that for herself and there's like nothing wrong with that like feminism says like do what like. Is empowered to you. The issue comes where there's clearly an internal conflict for her around I want all those things and I want to be seen as like my own person. Mm-hmm. That's what I, that's what I picked up a lot this season. I feel like, you know, I, I agree it's more of a status thing than a financial thing. I feel like both of these people, Emmy and Will, come from well-to-do families. But it's almost interesting because I feel like they're both sort of like boxing themselves into this role that's expected of them. Will being a lawyer, Emmy being a wife and What we, we got some messages from our last podcast about Sutton that we were a little too harsh on her for being a, um, quote unquote, maybe kept wife in some way. Listen, you're supporting a man, you're running your household, you're raising the children, that is work and it deserves all the compensation and You, you, he would not have been in the status that he's at without you contributing. Yeah. I think where, where that is somewhere you thrive and you're happy at, that's amazing and like 100% support. I think it's hard when you're watching these shows and you see that these people look miserable that you're like, okay, is this really fulfilling for you? And this season is really where I saw Will seems very vibrant in those first couple seasons where he's like, I'm a model. I lived in New York. I did all these things. And then when he starts going to law school, it almost seems like he just seems miserable. Like, the colors drained out of Emmys now in, like, black and white. Yeah, and like, I think it was so great how they edited that final party this season with the prom and everyone's having a good time and Will and Emmy are, like, on the rocking chairs, like, miserable. I was like... I don't like a part of me doesn't even know how much I care about the cheating rumors. I care more about like you both seem miserable in your lives and maybe address that. Like maybe that's more of the issue than whether or not he cheated on you. Yeah, look, I think, I completely agree with you that he, it's a completely different Will in season three, sorry, than the first two. But part of me wonders is... You know, they were constantly under attack by their best friends. So the first couple of seasons, it was a tight crew of Joe Bradley, you know, TJ, Brad, Emmy and Will. They had their group chat. They were, you know, in on the discussions about Maddie and her body and, you know, eating question marks. Um, they seem to be the unit and then it's turned on them and from what we know now, um, Following the confusing conversation at the reunion, there was some sneaky behavior and some planned attacks. You know, towards Maddie and her relationship with Trevor. So for them to kind of know that this was possible, um, And to know that their friends can potentially make things up about people close to them and then seeing the tides turn against them and realizing, oh, my God, it's all about us. They're turning it on us. You know, you can, I can sort of forgive them a little bit for feeling paranoid, feeling on edge, feeling anxious about, you know, what's coming next. Is it going to be a complete lie? Is it actually going on? You know, you talked Sam earlier about this kind of PR version that we get of them, a very controlled image that this is their white picket fence life that they want to present. You know, and you can sort of feel that intensity that she's holding on very, very tightly to the image of this relationship. And it's like she's so hyper vigilant and stressed all the time that anyone coming, she's, she's waiting for the attack. And as soon as someone goes there and it's about will and it's about the relationship. She's absolutely losing her mind because she's held that so tightly and been working so hard to sort of keep it, you know, looking the way she wants it to look. So... I just wonder if it's a combination of some actual cracks in the relationship. They became long distance. He's under a lot of pressure studying, you know, around the clock he's always talking about he's working, he's got the computer, he's studying, I think he does, he's doing an internship. Um, there's a lot of that going on and it's not just the fun that the first couple of seasons probably were, the novelty. Of being on a hospitality show where we're drinking. I mean, Emmy's like upside down in a g-string on a boat, you know, flapping her ass around all the time. And now it's a completely different defensive situation. Anxious, stressed version that we've been seeing. Well, and in some ways it seems like they put themselves in that position because it does feel like they came into this season And especially Will, and it makes me wonder sort of the conversations that Emmy and Will had going into this season where Will comes in like, I'm better than the show. Like, I'm in law school. I'm, like, actually too good to be here. At least that's the feeling that I got from him every time. And he was so, like, nonchalant. I don't care to be here. I don't need to be here. And Emmy's coming in as like, right now she's center, you know, like, I don't, I guess they don't do that with these shows where someone has like the center orange or diamond or whatever, but she. But the show is basically about her this season, right? Like, she is the center of everything that's happening. And she's got the seat next to Andy at the reunion to prove it. I wonder if he's coming in thinking he's better than the show. Is he also kind of like, is there a narrative of I'm better than you because you still need the show? And is that like also a crack in their relationship? You know, he's showing up to support her, right? Like, he keeps saying, I'm going to show up to support Emmy and what's important to her. And we're seeing such like a loss of identity for her and an enmeshment in Will. And if Will is like... Kind of rejecting her for being a reality star like that's got to create such conflict and such confusion and like kind of speaks to like this like dysregulated force that we're seeing in her every time she's questioned or Like, especially with, like, the dresses this season. Like, the reason I think that moment was such a big deal was, like, who even cares, like, what she did with the dresses? Like, whatever. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But I think there was this accusation and she's like, I don't have a sense of self. And now you're labeling my sense of self as a bad person. And like that, like, I don't even know what to do with that. I don't even know. And then Will comes on and is like, didn't you do that? Like, he, like, basically does the opposite of support her and makes her look guilty. And, you know, and the whole time she's Tammy Wynetting it and, like, standing by her man and he. Yes. It's like, where is he? He, like, the seat is empty next to her at the reunion. Like, it speaks so much to what he, like, the messaging she's getting about how he feels about Her and her position on this show, which right now is probably a big part of her identity. Yeah, and that's right, before she was a VIP host in a nightclub and now she's an influencer with promo codes that are getting her in trouble with her, you know, cast, crew, staff, whatever. And, and in Will's own words, you know, I think it was again, there's going to be a few quotes from the Vile files today. Well, that's the most we get from Will. That's where we get his side of. That's right. Exactly. So, but he did say in that, uh, on the one hand that he was sort of cast originally and, and that he sees her as a star. He did say, I, you know, she's a star. She's, and so I'm, I'm not sure how he feels because on the one hand, he's on campus at law school and anytime he's with a girl, people are posting in little, Forums and things that he was seeing with a girl in the library and people are onto him because he is famous now and I feel like he's torn between those two identities from Season one and two will who was probably loving the fame and the notoriety and I'm a Bravo Liberty to now actually knuckling down to this legitimate career where. Nobody would be interested in you being a star in the courtroom. I think it would work against you. And I can imagine people on campus giving him shit about it. Like, oh, you're on that Bravo show. Like, you are not... You're just here because maybe your parents are paying for you to be here. You know, we're serious about this career. What are you? You know, I can just, I don't think that was a lie. I think he genuinely could be given a hard time. So I feel like he's kind of torn between these two identities and I feel like Emmy is, is emerging as, okay, this is my career. Reality TV, bravo. I'm going to milk these fifteen minutes for everything I can get. I'm going to do the influencer life. I'm going to see what comes next. Maybe Will and I will get a wedding spinoff. Maybe we'll, I can sort of see those cogs turning for her that this is her new reality and her new identity. Um, so I'm not sure, you know, how do those two identities fit together and what does that look like for them in the future? I'm not sure. That was gonna be my question because when, you know, there's obviously the subtext behind what people say and you both are getting at that, but like, With Emmy, she's constantly like, I want to just be married. I want to be a wife. I want to have a baby. I want to be the trophy wife. I want the lawyer husband. I want the white picket fence. She comes from a, you know, well to do family that has money. What begs the question is why, why does she even want that, I guess? Why does she even want this fame or this reality show? Because it does seem to be in conflict for, of what she's saying she really wants. My question is, and this maybe is for you, Jenny, but how much of this is like a... Reality storyline, like she started off as, you know, in the Southern relationship, like you're saying, and this is the, this is what I want. This is my hopes and dreams. But what she can't say on camera is, but now that I'm doing this show with all of you filming me and following me around, this is really what I'm loving and I want to pursue that. And of course my end goal is to be married and have kids with But I am loving this new life and career for myself because she's referred to it a few times in interviews as her career and. You know, so I wonder if she just can't really say during the show and during filming that this isn't, you know, Now that I'm a star on TV and the whole world knows about me, you know, it's throwing up all kinds of different things and ideas and feelings. Like she can't really talk about that, can she? They have to pretend they're still working at like, sir, or like. You know, how they will, you know? Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think that Bravo is loosened on some of that. I think they would probably do the same thing that they sort of do with Paige and Lindsay from Summer House. It would be like, oh, I'm an influencer. I'm doing these things. And I think there were a lot of producing moments that they could have. Especially, and I want to get into the whole body dysmorphia stuff. Um, she talks about a first season too, by the way. But, um, and she obviously came into this season. She'd lost a lot of weight. Um, so I think that that they could have been like, I also, you know, I'm doing this for my influencer, you know, career. I do a lot about fitness. Like there was so many ways that they could have incorporated that. So that's why I kind of feel like maybe I don't know. I don't know how calculated all of it is like maybe some of it is also, you know, she's got a manager and she has people who like arrange these things for her. Um, but it is interesting to hear that she's talking a lot about it being her career because yeah, on the show she's constantly like, I don't want a career. I just want to be a trophy wife. A second season there was a whole storyline of her moving up at Republic that then just like she just dropped. So maybe she I think that's actually something really important that I don't want to like skip over because if we like go into that second season a big part of her storyline is like being mad at Maddie for not being a good manager. And she kind of like vies to become the manager and it's given that and you see her like kind of thriving in that moment like there's some like identity she feels and like I'm being seen for doing something that I'm doing right like that's just about me. And she has cheating rumors coming at her that season and she's still, like, denying them and doing, like, the politician wife thing if he would never, like, whatever. The... PR politician thing, but she is able to manage it better she's not like loot completely losing it and part of it to me feels like it's rooted and she's getting a sense of identity by like doing well at work and being promoted. And given these opportunities and being seen. But then she like gets this AGM position and like, essentially loses it very quickly because she can't like commit or because it's a little unclear exactly. Leva kind of explains it's a little confusing to me they didn't go into too much detail but it seems like she just like doesn't the responsibilities too much or she just can't like handle it. And I wonder if that is part of like what she's feeling now like I have this career now and it's like, I'm, I'm really happy about it. But I could lose it at any, like, I don't know that I can handle keeping it, so I can't get rid of that, like, old identity that, like, wants to be the trophy wife, that wants to be, like, the conflict between the two and, the fear of failing at one and needing to, like, keep That. Like, right? Her, like, backup plan. Her safety plan. Yeah. But if, like, she keeps bringing up, especially this came up in the reunion, her mental health and how her mental health can't handle this. And I think, um, Grace Lilly... One of the few times Grace Lilly really had a deep, deep thought. She was like, maybe this career quote unquote career is not for you. If this is her career and she really feels that passionate about it, but then it's making her like, what I saw was like physically ill and mentally, you know, breaking down. Like, is this the right career? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really interesting, Sam, what you were saying about that sense of identity in the AGM role and in that manager role briefly. And I wonder if it's, if she's getting the same thing from being a social media star and, you know, being known, she's got the fame, she's got opportunities, she's A leader and a star in the same kind of way without having to actually do the grunt work of managing a bar. So she might be being fulfilled in the same way now and so she can kind of let that go. But I think one of the other things we have to consider is She talked about in the Vile files that both she and Will, quote unquote, were very neurodivergent. And she went on to say she was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of five. And she's been on medication since then for the last twenty-two years. And we know about features of ADHD. You know, she talks about being overstimulated a lot of the time, having incredible sensory difficulties with lighting. She talked about Having a part of the reason she had that freak out about the dresses was that she could feel the mic pack on her back and she was getting really incredibly Um, over stimulated and, and having sensory reactions to that. So if you kind of throw all of that in the mix as well, somebody with ADHD, um, Somebody who's sensitive to sensory stimuli and noise, sound, lights, um, feeling potentially we know about. Rejection sensitivity and feeling like people are questioning her and her loyalty and her beliefs and her character. And feeling like everyone's talking about her and she went from a safe space in a group of friends to suddenly being on an island with Will. And all of that, I think her responses are probably informed by all of that kind of neurodiversity that's there within her anyway. I think it's great that she's talking about it because for sure watching her reactions, I thought, wow, this is like mania. We are seeing really manic, intense reactions. What has happened to her? Is she taking something? Is she... You know, not in a good place. What's going on for her? And then the pieces kind of made more sense to me once she talked about that. I was like, ah, okay, all right. So she's already... In a heightened state anyway, she's walking into these situations, hypervigilant, probably anxious, probably already quite stimulated. And then it just takes the tiniest bit of attention her way in a negative perspective. And here we go again, here we go again, here we go again. So. And the combination of being on a, like a stimulant medication, which I think is what she named she was on. Mm-hmm. Um, and then also, you know, just bringing in like potential like, I don't know if it's eating disorder, but there's clearly some exercise addiction like the way she explained her exercise routine is extremely it's extreme. Um. And I don't like to me it speaks to like your body may be running off of adrenaline if you're exercising that much and doesn't know when to like. Kind of come down and go into that like dorsal rest and relax mode that yeah if she's coming in feeling overstimulated feeling out of control right like it seems like control is a really big thing for her when she doesn't feel in control of her narrative and control of her surroundings. In control of what's happening to her, which it seemed like she felt a little more in season one and two, that then we kind of see this like erratic, right, just regulated response to things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that first scene with Will this season two was wild and I had to watch it a couple of times to figure out how much of it was editing and how much of it was Really what was going on and I think it ultimately was what was really going on because it really helped set the stage for what will was saying behind her back. Obviously that happened prior to the season, but. If you're sitting across from your partner and you're tired from going to law school, working this internship, and the way that she fluctuated between different topics And just seemed very, I mean, I could see why he would say she was very self-centered and like focused on herself. But my complaint I guess on the producing end is if that was the case and we're learning this on vial files. First of all, the company and Bravo will not be happy that she gave more to Vile Files than she gave to them on this show. And whether or not that was even her fault, like at the end of the day, like you got to bring those things to the table when you're filming. And I think if the dress scene, because it was sort of not Will related, was like a big red flag for me, like how much of this is about Will and how much is this about Emmy? And to me, if if that was what was really going on, I could see, you know, a scene with her sitting down with TJ or Michaels or somebody that she's close with. I mean, she did have a talking to with Michaels where he's like, the way you behaved was like too much at work. And to me, I'm like, why didn't she? I don't know. Talk about that. Or I feel like so many people this season, TJ especially, like TJ and Michaels really came out with so much vulnerable storylines and really gave a lot of backstory and context, especially with the Joe Bradley TJ. Relationship, it makes me question why didn't Emmy either have that opportunity or she didn't take that opportunity to kind of tell a little bit more about what was going on with her. Yeah, well, I guess if she is genuinely dysregulated in that moment, she's not necessarily putting all of those pieces together. And so when she sits down and she, and, and I keep using hypervigilant because I do feel like she was on guard all the time knowing that, okay, this is what my friends are doing. My so-called best friends, they're turning it on us. We are the storyline. Oh, my God, we're fucked, basically. And so I felt like she was just constantly waiting for the attack to defend. And so maybe she's not thinking from a broader perspective, like, hang on. What's actually going on with me? Why am I reacting like this? How can I help Michaels understand it's not just about the dresses. I'd also been unwell. I'd barely had any sleep. I was, you know, blah, blah, blah, and having all of these reactions. And by the way, I don't talk about this a lot, but I have ADHD and sometimes I react like this. You know, she talked a couple of times in that interview about her mom watching this season and saying, oh, I recognize that. That's that meltdown that you do. That's that overstimulation that you do. You know, and she named it really comfortably. And there could have been, as you're saying, Jenny, so many moments where, I mean, half the world has ADHD. It's not a taboo. I mean, certainly I don't feel like it's, you know, some embarrassing stigma to carry anymore. It's something that's, you know, everybody is talking about it more and more and more. And I think she would have... Had a lot more understanding from viewers who might recognize some of those things in themselves or in someone they love. And having had been in situations where maybe they or somebody else has had a huge reaction to something that feels really small and doesn't quite fit the reaction and So, yeah, I think it would have been really helpful and I wonder if that will be some notes she gets for. Next season, like let's really bring all of this to the table. This is really interesting. She also talked about will being neurodivergent and they didn't name anything specifically or But he said, yeah, you know, I, I can say things in a way that the, you know, without thinking. And then, you know, are we playing into that? Are they hinting that maybe is he a little bit on the spectrum or what are they hinting at? I don't know, but... You know, is his talking about her also part of his neurodiversity and that he's, you know, Talking about things without necessarily thinking through who he's talking to and what's going to be relayed and because he just needs to sort of say it out loud in that moment and. I don't know. There's a whole world to unpack there that I think would have added a lot more depth to the conversation. Well, and the bigger issue with those kind of disclosures is that it's great to name that and normalize it and that can be really helpful for people, but it also a little bit feels like, okay, well, we're going to name these things. As a way to not, like, totally be accountable for our own behavior. Like, I say things so like, like, don't hold me accountable for what I say because I'm neurodivergent. Like, that's my concern with like, in the way, like, again, they do it in this PR way that it feels like. I'm subverting or scapegoating accountability to my neurodivergence and that's not the messaging we want to give neurodivergent people like, you know, we want to be accountable that even if you are neurodivergent. There's still expectations to behave, and if your mom is telling you, I recognize those tantrums, like, where's the work on that? Yeah. Where's there some accountability of like, I'm in therapy or I'm doing some work to figure out how to manage my emotions better. And I think that's where it becomes more of a problem for me where it's sort of like, okay, I'm going to say it now, like month, like. In this way that feels very controlled and no one's going to question it, right? the way they set up this, this Nick Vile, Interview was like, we want this because we want to be able to explain our, our side of the story without anyone else's interpretation coming into it. Mm hmm. And that is like, that's not fair. That's not like what you signed up for. That's not what you were paid for. And us as an audience, like, I, for one, am very angry about that. Like, I feel pissed. Yeah. Hmm. but pivoting to the cheating rumors. I don't know my opinion on it sometimes. Are you asking, like, do we think if Will cheated? I mean, that was going to be one of my questions, but I think my other thing was the, the, the scene that was really telling to me was Emmy with her sister. Cause you know, obviously everybody else is attacking them or she feels that way. So. Okay, say I write off all those other scenes. The scene with her sister was so telling to me because she's like, well, it's kind of, I mean, she didn't say it in these words, but It's kind of weird that there's constant cheating rumors about Will. It would make me start questioning. And then the other thing, you know, she's like, I'm happy. I'm happy. Don't you see? Like, I'm happy. And the sister's like, you seem... Overwhelmed. Yes. And that was so telling to me. And like, going back to the question, how much of this trophy wife or getting married is our storyline? I, I can't say for sure, but I will say. You know, sometimes as producers, you go into a season, you have a lot of conversations with the cast and you say, what is going on with your life that could be a goal this season that we really focus on? And then every interview is kind of focused on that, right? Tamara from OC doing a bodybuilding. Bodybuilding competitions is like, you know, the easiest, you know, because you know at the end of the season they're going to be in that bodybuilding competition or You know, getting baptized again at this big party So with Emmy, though, I find it a little harder to believe that. Angle because it's always like next summer. It's always like she's got this timeline, but it's giving more like Lindsay Hubbard like. This is her timeline. Then it's giving, you know, a producer being like, we need to have a wedding by the end of this season, which that if they come back, that could be we need to have a engagement by the end of this season. I mean, Kyle Cook. You know, I don't know if he was ready to propose to Amanda Batula, but they had a finale because he proposed to Amanda Batula. After their worst season ever. Yeah. So I, I don't get that sense from her, but yeah, there was something very telling to me with the sister of her being like overwhelmed, but yeah. And I want to throw out. For both of you two, the, uh, Instagram, TikTok, I don't know which video of somebody saying that they thought that Will had cheated. She had forgiven him. They had this agreement. And that's why it was so, you know, crazy this season because she was going to hide it no matter what. Um, I don't, again, I don't think I know what to believe on the cheating rumors to be totally honest. Yeah, it's so hard to know, isn't it? And I just feel like we do live in an age where if, if somebody else is involved, they almost always come forward and we get the text messages or we get a photo or we get some sort of proof. Or at least someone on TikTok saying, well, I'm the girl that they're talking about and this is, let me tell you what happened. And then they do seventeen videos like unpacking the five minute story. But like, it's just, you know, they do say there's no smoke without fire, but where's the fire, you know? And given that we know. And look, I don't know what I believe either, so I'm not here advocating that he's innocent necessarily, but we know that TJ and Brad, or maybe more so Brad, Fully made up a lie. Completely made up a lie about Trevor. Cheating on Maddie. So is it that inconceivable that they've taken a whisper of something or, you know, I heard Will had a girl in his apartment Which we now know was while they were in New York together and he wasn't even there. Could that then become this, you know. Snowball made up story because everybody wants to have a juicy storyline and they know that's what keeps us watching and that worked in season one and that worked in season two and you know. I don't know. I could sort of see it going both ways. I don't know. Well, it's interesting because in season two when they have the, um, cheating rumor, Mia says that she's texted with one of the girls who was at the party. And that the, that girl had confirmed that Will had made out with her. Again, still all hearsay. But what Mia does say that I think is really interesting is that she's known Will for a really long time. And that that is his history of kind of being a playboy and kind of and like. You know, he's off at college. Would it be very easy for him to have affairs? Like, sure. That all aside, whether he cheated or not, almost, like, doesn't matter because he did an even worse emotional betrayal of, like, The things that he said about Emmy and about her body, about who she is, about how he feels about her, like. Those are like almost to me personally would be bigger wounds than if my partner had cheated on me. If my partner had said they're disgusted by my body, they think I'm like self-involved and like. Don't like our like basically hate me like that to me would be much I'd rather have a partner cheat on me than say those things. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's, that's such a betrayal on so many levels. But they do seem to, I mean, whether it's real or not, they seem to have sort of Worked through that and maybe that did help them have conversations about, you know, again from that long-form interview that Will did. He talked about, you know, the conversation, and maybe he did it in a drunk and gross way, but his main concerns were that she was spiraling back into, Body dysmorphia or controlling her eating and her activity in a way that was dangerous and that he'd sort of looked out for that before and he knew this was an issue for her and and that that's what was worrying him. And it could be that he was just drunk, he was worried about that, and it's come out in this horribly nasty negative way because potentially he doesn't filter himself properly. Well, um, but, but also we know he gets really sloppy, drunk and does stupid things. We saw it in season one. He was embarrassing at times. So is it a personality flaw? Is it just, you know, being young and doing stupid things when you're drunk? Oddly enough, she's moved through that, but she, sorry, I think my point was about the podcast that they said that it opened up conversations for them and they could have real conversations about his concerns about her feelings. And the relationship and the pressure and the strains they were under being in these two different worlds and in different places now. So. Yeah, I just, I don't know. It's a huge betrayal. Sometimes the worst betrayals do. We know that, you know, cheating in relationships is not always the end of a relationship and it can be. The beginning of some really great work together and that you can move forward in a really healthy way and unearth those resentments that maybe you've been holding on to. So. I don't know, I'm spiraling in circles here with lots of different ideas, but I'm not sure what I fully believe. Yeah. I love how much grace you're giving them, but it's interesting where that, like, That way you're kind of naming Will's concern for Emmy feels very reminiscent of in season two. I guess Emmy talks in the group chat about Maddie's weight. Hmm. And Maddie kind of feels that as like a betrayal like you're talking about something you're saying you're concerned about it, but you're talking about it behind my back. And so it's interesting that like they had this experience where they're addressing that same thing and now and the fact that he's re there's something convenient about that to me. Yeah, that feels like a story being retold. Well, also, it's frustrating because to me, the first thing I thought when I saw Emmy and her first conversation being like, I... Do Pilates twice a day and I run two miles every day or whatever. I was like, oh my gosh, she is. And then it was interesting seeing back on season one, she talks about how she struggled with Body dysmorphia with Grace Lily. And I was like, oh, so this has definitely been a thing for her. And to me, like, it was already planted. We already, you know, the audience is already thinking this. And she named it with Maddie, too. She said, I recognize this because I've been through this. She doesn't say it directly, but she's like, I recognize, like, having relationship issues leading to Issues with your body. Like, I've been through that, too. And so, yeah, they did prime us for this being a part of her world. And she's basically repeating what she was afraid that was happening. Like, that's what's happening to her. But what's interesting to me is, like, why... I mean, Will did seem a little checked out this season just in general, like he's doing his law thing. He's doing that internship. He's not really around. But to me, I'm like, why did he not feel a safe person? Place in the production or with any of their friends to say that because I think like even with TJ and Brad and the way they originally Approached him and said, you know, we know even saying these things to us, but also to other people and like what's going on. That would have been the perfect opportunity for Will to be like, you know, let's be honest, I was concerned. And I do agree like a rupture like that between Emmy and Will could really bring some repair because it did seem like something that needed to kind of be addressed. But again, like, I guess my frustration is like, why now on vile file? Like the PR of it all. And to your point. TJ and Joe, they all did kind of have that conversation with, with Will, and he didn't address it in that way that I'm concerned about, or he got into complete defense mode and was just like, no, We already talked about it. Stop talking about it. me and Emmy already like dealt with it. Like, I don't need you guys to bring this up. And there was such like a... I think for both of them, there's such a resistance to bringing any of this on camera that it almost fed into people wanting to bring it on camera more. But again, I go back to that feeling of trust and, and I'm not sure that I would feel safe talking about my relationship from a, you know, in a vulnerable way. With my friends who were looking as though they were calculating a negative, you know, shift in the attention to me. So if I felt like I was suddenly the storyline and my partner had done something terrible, you know, I probably would do the same thing and want to just get on with it quickly. I'm not necessarily then going to have A heart to heart and be really open and vulnerable because I think, well, are they then going to use that and twist that around and turn that into something? If you're not feeling safe in those relationships, how do you? You know, be honest about where things are at. So I can imagine if they're feeling under attack, you're not going to say, you know what, you're right about that. And I, I did do the wrong thing. And let me now share with you how the relationship is really going. And our conversation we had last night off camera and this is what I am worried about with Emmy and this is, you know, I'm worried am I getting itchy feet or am I like, you know, I am famous now and I'm getting attention from girls and it is really hard. You know, I, I can't imagine he'd be able to say anything like that because, you know, he'd be afraid of what they would do with it. Have I drunk the Kool-Aid? Is that what's happened to you? You've drunk the Kool-Aid a little, but I love it. I love having like another, it helps me get a lot of perspective. Um, because it's making me see that like two things can exist at the same, it's reminding me that two things can exist at the same time that both like, I think that existed and I think there was a part of them that was like. Really wanted to control the storyline and continue to put up the facade that like, we are this like, strong, good, no problems couple and none of our issues like both personal or relational are going to come to the show. Yeah. And yeah, I think like both of those things are true that there was this part that they were like, we need to hold up this facade and I don't feel safe sharing any of the other stuff. Yeah. And I think those things are interrelated and probably disconnected as well. Yes. Well, and I think that that gets us to sort of going into the final questions, but I do think all the information too that you provided about ADHD is really interesting because I don't have that much knowledge about the actual disorder. Um, I guess, you know, there's obviously rumors out there that she has some sort of addiction, um, potentially to Adderall, so. You know, the fact that she was open and willing to talk about it is really interesting. But yeah, there was some behaviors that was like, this is giving Craig Conover from early seasons of Southern Jar, where she's openly talked about being addicted to Adderall. So having ADHD, I think. Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, you can obviously be prescribed that for real reasons and then it could become a problem. Right, so highly addictive medication. Right. And if not taken as prescribed can cause issues. Yeah. And I don't know if she is or if she's not and being on whatever. Dosage she is for as long as she has and knowing her weight fluctuates like these things can all play a role in sort of how your body like. Exercising more again, like I wonder how that combined with this. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't know all the intricacies of medication, but I wonder if like her significant weight loss and then also. That level of exercise like how that combines with whatever dosage of a stimulant she was on and if that intensifies the body's sort of response to it. And I think it's normalized in nightlife too, right? Like Adderall is, and this is totally apart from Emmy and I'm not bringing her into it. At all, but having worked in nightlife, having no people who work in nightlife, like Adderall is, you know, casually used. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I would add about ADHD is generally people with ADHD don't get a stimulant reaction to the stimulants like that. That's the whole thing, right? Their brain is already in fast forward. And that stimulant actually quietens it down. So I'm not really, it's not like somebody else who's abusing it in the, in the nightlife who doesn't have ADHD. They're going to get a speedy sort of response to it. But could there be other things? They do work in the nightlife. It's, you know, certainly here in Australia, you know, everything else happens in those bars as well. Um, so, I mean, I'm not necessarily suggesting that with Emmy, but just there's always a question I wondered about, you know, Craig Conner. Were there other things going on there as well? Um, so yeah, it, it's certainly her, her reactions and her responses were certainly not what you would expect from someone that was in control of their brain and their body. Definitely. So, I mean, I definitely want to get into where do they go from here, but do we think reality TV is, is good for Emmy? Because this, this is a meaty question for this episode. Where it's Grace Lily. We need Grace Lily to come in and give us her insight. Going back to Grace Lily, yeah. A read on the situation. Is this really the career for you? Well, for me, it brings up that age-old question about, like, what, as far as, like, not, like, what is it that the TV production people, like, people who are making this show... Who are responsible for those decisions. Where is their role to see like this person keep saying her mental health isn't okay and keeps like. Demonstrating that her mental health isn't okay. Like, what is their responsibility of saying, like, you didn't, like, you didn't seem, and that doesn't mean she can't come back, but are there, like, expectations? Like, you need, we, you need to be in therapy. You need, like, I don't know, like, what that looks like around, like, you didn't seem well this season and we don't want to, like, exploit that. But don't they want to exploit that? Well, right, that's the, that's part of the age-old question. Oh my gosh, yeah. And the liability of production companies and Bravo is ever-changing. Um, I mean, these people are work for hire, so it's the same way me as a freelance producer, you know, um, and, and that's changing as well. There's, you know, prominent case in UK right now of a true crime producer. That committed suicide and he claimed the effects of working on this true crime show was part of it. And so it's definitely something that needs to be evaluated and we're, you know, constantly Changing because this is still a new art form in a way, but I feel like for the production company, they're a little bit in a, in a tight spot in the sense of, okay, The show was a huge hit this season. Like, the best ratings it's ever gotten. It kind of took off this season So I'm sure Bravo wants another season and they want me to be on it. However, there's some things going against them. They, you know, will not showing up to the reunion could easily be like you're off the show. Will and Emmy going on Viofiles and telling their whole storyline to Viofiles. No one at Bravo's happy about that. Like, they don't like when they do that. And then, her constantly being like my mental health can't handle this. those are red flags. That, you know, a lawyer is going to watch and be like, OK, how far are you going to go with this person who's openly saying this show is hurting them? So if this is important to Emmy, It's interesting how she's going about it. Hmm. Yeah. I think if we asked Emmy, she would absolutely think this is a good career for her. And I think her answer would be, look, if they can just get off me and will, we can go back to just being Bringing everything and being good friends and having a good time. We just need them to stop focusing on us all the time. I feel like that's all she wants. Just take the heat off and then she is in her element. She wants to be in control. Yes, and I don't think she would want to go anywhere. She has definitely said in interviews next season and, you know, I'm definitely coming back and, I mean, that's her own personal... And they both kind of indicated because Nick asked them directly, are you guys, what's your, what is your standing? And Will was kind of like, I don't know, but I always support Emmy and her position on the show, which made it seem like she is definitely coming back. Yeah. I mean, maybe The Vile Files was a bit of a will being like, I obviously effed things up at the reunion. Let me give you this to help you get another season. But I mean, she really ended that reunion in tears and everyone being like, maybe this is not good for you. But also like what you're saying is like, okay, then go work on an HDTV show. Which even those now, I mean, if you look at the, that couple of them flipping out, I mean, even those are getting messy. So, I'm like, you can't go on reality TV with That strict of boundaries. And we talk about this all the time because obviously the Vanderpump rules of it all when it like ended. You know, having boundaries is something that you should do as a healthy person. And so where did those boundaries come in with reality TV is really interesting. But also if you're that strict, I want to only appear in the show this way. To help my influencer career. Bravo is not interested in that. Nor is the audience, let's be honest. And can she be on it without Will? Like, we're looking at, like, Lindsay Hubbard not having her partner on, and I do think it's affecting, like, how much we're going to want her to come back. If you're not willing to and we see it on New York with Jenna Lyons only showing not being willing to show her partner like when you're not willing to show like. One of the most significant parts of your life like one we're questioning how real this is and like when we're already feeling more and more disconnected from the reality of reality TV if you're hiding or parts of your life are off limits like. Mm-hmm. You're not interesting like it's not like you feel disconnected and then you're there's no buy-in. Yeah. I mean, we're always talking about authenticity. That's what we want from our stars. That's what we want in these shows. And I think anyone going into reality TV now Thinking they're going to be able to control the narrative and come with a very tight list of what they will and won't share. It's, we know about the internet sleuths. There's only so far that's going to get you. Any skeletons in your closet are coming out. You know, and then if not, if there's nothing and you're just trying to control it so tightly, it's going to be boring. And we're going to end up in a DUI like Karen Huger. It's going to come out in very maladaptive ways. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I mean, that kind of got into our second question, like, is she good for reality TV? I think she could be really good for reality TV. Some of the stuff that, you know, they talk about on Vile Files. I'm interested, but you gotta bring that to the table when you're filming. Because, I mean, otherwise, why are you on this show? The show is also because of the context of the show. The show is about friends that work in a nightclub and Dealing with being young and crazy and having all these different relationships. and so they they're probably gonna start filming again in June. So they have a small window to figure out is she coming back and how? What would you like to see happen with her? Hmm. I think I would like to just see her. I want to see more about her life and her story. You know, I don't, I don't also need it to just be about will. Um, it's kind of, it's getting a bit, it's getting a bit annoying. Like, I feel like we're kind of stuck in this cycle of what did Will do? What did Will do? And then the defense, like, Like, I want to actually see her. The first season, she was wild. She was having, she was the life of the party. She was getting in so much trouble, you know, being a little bit inappropriate and, you know, going too far and Getting so drunk one night, you know, she kind of had to be put to bed and like there was, there was so much more to her before and seeing this. Highly stressed, extremely anxious, you know, very distressed version of her and defensive. I just gave her such a narrow focus and and we sort of lost all of those other parts you reminded me about so many things from season one just in this conversation and She was so much more of a dynamic personality and I think she could be amazing on reality TV and I feel like she is willing to say things and do things that... Make the show interesting. So, you know, I would like to see less manufactured drama, which it feels like she's saying TJ and Brad are doing Quite a lot of and just bring it back. I think the ingredients are there. They're all interesting enough people and that they're real friends and there are real relationships and history there. So I think it could really just have incredible legs, this show, but they just need to stop self-producing a little bit. I'd like to see her have, like, the housewife, like, journey where you see them, like, come into the shows like a Tamara where she comes in with this, like, Controlling what feels like a controlling relationship and gets this sense of identity from the show and then like breaks free of the relationship and I'd love to see that for Emmy where it's like she can really let go of the idea that I need to get married I need to like Be the lawyer's wife and I can just embody like this other part of me fully and because I just don't think like watching someone. Get married and be the lawyer's wife is interesting reality TV. So if she wants to do that, then like, cool, great, maybe like don't come back. But if you want to like fully embrace something different, like it feels like that's the journey I'd like to see her on. Yeah. Yeah. That is, I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't see that. I was gonna say, I think she should bring in a friend or something, just an ally. To help her. I mean, I would love to see her break free and uh, not need will. I just don't I mean, even the vile files tells me she's so enmeshed with him like she won't let go of that ever. I feel like also this season gave them a little bit of trauma bonding. It actually brought them, they had to be together because there was no one else. You know, there was a bit of triangulation attempting from some of the other cast trying to, you know, we love Emmy, we care about Emmy, we just want the best for her and Will is this and Will is that and he's not a good friend and he's not a good boyfriend and And they, it just brought them almost, almost they had to be closer and a unit even more. So maybe this season actually did the opposite of what everybody wanted for her. And I, you know, I don't see any ruptures anytime soon. I feel like they're going to be more fused together than ever. That's so interesting. I think you're so right about the trauma bonding. Well, I mean, I'm not interested in the cheating rumors as much either, to be honest. I would be happy if they next season moved on from that. It does feel like I always think cheating is a symptom and I'm more interested in the disease and sometimes they just get so fixated on proving it. And I think Yana, you're right, like. In this age, like there would be proof or there should be more proof or even if Emmy knew he cheated and just wanted to forgive him and move on. Like, that's fine. Let her. Yeah, let her. Yeah, maybe even it would have been more interesting if she just said that, but you know, maybe she's in too much of a denial to do that. but yeah, I want to open it up to just Bravo thoughts as well of the week if there were any. Nobody went to jail this week. No, but you know what we did see, and we've talked about her a couple of times in this episode, but Tamara, Tamara quitting quote unquote OC in the middle of a trip. And, you know, I think I'm not a huge Tambora supporter these days. And, you know, we talk about using. Diagnoses as a, as an excuse for things and when she came out for five minutes and said she'd seen a therapist for the first time ever and that they said. You know, she's probably on the spectrum. I mean, we all know you don't just go to a therapist and they say in one session, I think you're on the spectrum. It's an extensive assessment. We have a whole episode about it. Okay, great. So we know about that. That's absolute bullshit. And it was just another excuse for her terrible behavior. And now it's the Teddy Mellencamp. Excuse. And yes, what Teddy's going through is horrific. And I was never really a Teddy fan, but I'm absolutely heartbroken for her and her family. So scary and I feel like she's handling it with such grace and bravery, courage, like I don't know that I would be able to Deal with it as well as she appears to be. Um, and for Tamara to say like all of a sudden her life got too real, um, While filming and she quits and now she's back filming again apparently. I just feel like the heat was on her. And like she always does, she runs and finds a reason to blame it on something else. And to now use your sick friend as the reason for you running away just is so terrifying. I'm stereotypically Tamra and makes my blood boil. I can't, I just can't. It's so bad for me getting invested in this franchise because the Camera of it all just makes me so upset, you know, and a lot of the comments online are, you know, well, if your daughter not speaking to you wasn't enough to make you stop filming, how is your friend's illness the reason that you would quit? You know, your child made it perfectly clear. I'm not going to have a relationship with you while you're on the show. And she chose the show. So what are we doing here? Right. And what messaging are you giving your child's? Exactly. Exactly. I'm, I'm like a Tamra apologizer also because she shares my same birthday and she's making it really hard, hard to continue that road. I'm going to be honest. This season at least will be interesting. We'll get some tea. Um, yeah. Southern term is wrapping up. We have the Craig and page, um, The long march towards their breakup that we're gonna see on two different shows. Yes, it's such a long march. I'm kind of over it, I gotta say. It feels like sort of how I felt about Lindsay and Carl where it was like over it before we got to the juice of it. And this is, I think, something Bravo's gonna have to contend with, like, social media and, like, us knowing things before, like, the lag time between shows, but we already know everything and have already... Processed all of our emotions around it. And yes, like now we're getting some more information, but even just like holding this conversation that like. Craig potentially was talking to other girls and like, is that going to be something? Is that going to be like a big old nothing burger like sometimes Bravo can do to us? And like, I kind of like don't care. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the writing has been on the wall. It's certainly in my eyes for a long time with them. And I think Paige is doing a good job and I'm not, you know, a huge Paige stan by any means. In fact, I'm blocked by Paige for some reason. I must have written something on Instagram a while ago. I'm not like a troll kind of commenter, so I don't know what I've done to offend her, but I obviously We have not gotten blocked, I don't think, from anyone yet. So that is really a badge of honor. That's like status. That's like status. God, God only knows. But, you know, I think the way that she talked recently about, you know, I'm not the same girl that I was when I first started dating And my career and my goals and my aspirations and my life plan has changed. And I think we all saw that. You know, when you are completely obsessed with someone and you are both planning your future together, it just happens. It happens no matter what and you find a way to be together and and all of the things and. You know, the fact that they've sort of been taking it at a really healthy pace. There's nothing wrong with what they've been doing. But I think we all could kind of see that. You know, maybe this isn't really gonna go the way that he would like it to go and that she has other plans and other ideas and she wasn't gonna leave New York and she wasn't gonna leave her career and Why should she? Um, but yeah, I think this long march, as you said, Jenny, has been going on for a lot longer than even just these two seasons that we're watching now. Yeah. I mean, so even the conversation that was on this week, I was like, I feel like I've seen this twice before. Yeah. Three times, four times. Yeah. Like on both the shows, but I, I, I hate the conversation. That's going on about the page and the Craig and the whose side are you on? It's like these are two people who are clearly good people who had a healthy relationship where they grew and changed and evolved and it ultimately. It definitely just didn't make sense for them. And that's really where we're at. I mean, I think the page stands of it all is kind of like, listen, You're a person that's evolving and changing and having different wants and needs. You don't need to justify that. Did you give him mixed messages at times? Yeah. I'm a career woman, quote unquote, who often is like, can I be a kept woman in a farmhouse? Like, oh, yeah. Me on a Wednesday wants to be all in my career and me on a Friday wants to go live in a farm with bees and Craig. So I don't think that there was anything wrong with what she did at all. Yeah. Also, I can see Craig's perspective of holding out hope, being a little in denial. And like, let's just leave it at that. Like, why do we have to villainize one of them? And I think Paige played into it. I don't know. I just think the whole PR of it all. Yeah. Sam, you're right. I think Bravo needs to put the lid. Because even like the Lindsay and Carl thing, she went on Vile Files. She had this extensive interview where I was like, oh my gosh, this is what happened with the breakup. The breakup airs on Summer House. It couldn't have been more wildly different. Yeah. you have Carl on Vile Files and he finally gives his side. And then Lindsay's like, now you're giving your side. It's like, Well, Carl's at least doing it in the right order, which is let the show air first. And I'm like, and that's kind of how I feel about Craig, too. Like, Craig really didn't say anything because he was gonna let it air on the show and he was gonna talk about it at the reunion. He was gonna talk about it and watch What Happens Live. And I'm like, okay, everyone needs to play by the same rules here. I mean, from a production point of view, can these shows be turned around faster? Because it seems like it really You know, if they could film it and get it out, you know, within the next month, I don't know how you do that, but that would probably save and then just save for this six month period. You're not allowed to do podcasts. You're not allowed to post. It's in the contract. You are Only doing this on the show and then after that you can do whatever you want. I mean, is it possible to get them out faster? Well, yeah, I mean, to be frank, a edit schedule is usually six weeks per episode and that's a really tight schedule. Um, like for a. Bravo show that's super tight, um, for a more simple format that wouldn't be as tight. So six to eight weeks is common. However, You know, they shoot it, then it comes in, that all adds time. Like, they're not immediately editing it. Um, usually production happens and then it's a couple months, um. Right, and they need to shoot the whole thing before, right? So they have an idea of, like, what the stories are. Yeah. Yeah, so they are often editing and shooting at the same time, but it's a little delayed. I would say they could get it out faster if Bravo decides to not give any notes. Okay. If Bravo doesn't want any input, then yeah. Yeah. That's the other thing. It's like, You know, there's production companies that make the actual show and then there's Bravo who's like sort of the client and they give feedback. So it. It's an interesting part of the business where it's like Bravo needs to make all their shows look consistent in their brand, but it's actually being made by a lot of different companies with a lot of different creatives. So. That plays into it too. Plus the quality of the show would go down so much. I mean, these aren't like YouTube shows. Yeah. Um, but you know, when I started out in the business, there was a very tight lid. Like you couldn't go on these podcasts and talk. But the thing is, it's become such a business for Bravo. It's to their benefit. They don't see the ratings go down when these people do this. They see the ratings go up. and it generates more clout for their stars. It helps promote BravoCon, all their other things that they're doing. So I don't think we're going to see an end to it. I just think we're going to see, I think the next year we're going to see a lot of newer shows. And we're going to see some legacy shows like go away. I'm dying. Jormois is like teasing the heck out of this Bravo announcement. And we're hearing cricket. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, I heard, I don't know if it was, um, on Juicy Scoop with Heather MacDonald, but was she saying that potentially the rumor is that Andy Cohen's going to step down? I feel like that's been a rumor that's good for years or at least for a while. I feel like people say that every once in a while. Yeah. And, but maybe because of that, you know, some of the rumors were like, yes, it's like a juicy thing, but not that exciting. And, you know, we, we kind of, you have heard about Andy before, so maybe that would be a little bit of a letdown, like, oh, is that it? Okay. Yeah. Um, or it's an announcement of another show. I don't think there's anyone that would get so excited about a new franchise of housewives. Like we've seen them come and go and we've invested in new shows. It's not like, oh, Oh my god, a new series, what? You know, like a, unless I, I feel like personally what I would get really excited about would be a revamp of New York OGs of some description. And I think that's what the fans would go wild for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bring back Dorinda, bring back Luann and Sonia in some way. Yeah, even her. Absolutely. I've been dying for her Berkshire show, but I, I, my theory was that it was going to be Lindsay. I don't know about Paige, honestly. Paige should stay on Summer House if she's going to be single mingle, personally, I think. But, um, Lindsey Hubbard on Real Housewives of New York. But then Bravo's and Cocktail said, no, that's not happening. But then what's happening to our Hubbard, our Lindsay Hubbs? Well, maybe it's summer in the city and it's just following those guys through Cause we want to see more of Kyle and Amanda at home. We want to see what's happening with Paige in her amazing apartment and following her around. We want to see what's happening with Lindsay. Will she, won't she with her secret boyfriend. You know, there's, there's plenty there with the current cast and. Bring back Hannah. I want to see all that play out. Oh God, no, please, please, no, please, no, please, no, please, no, please, no. I just want to see, okay, I just want to see them have a sit down. I don't need her back on the show, but I do want to say one thing about that because Jamie Stein did a great episode too about triangulation in Summer House. Um, so shout out to our friend. Um, but with the Kyle of it all, like, he did not get Hannah fired. Like, he didn't get her fired. He doesn't have the control. I think what he said is definitely true. She was like, that season was rough. Everyone hated her that season. Yeah. I remember everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, like, that no one would forgive her at the reunion and that's why she didn't come back. That also is not how it works because there's been plenty of people that are hated. Who've come back because nobody forgives. Yeah. Yeah, and then they have one friend and it's fine. I actually think something that nobody's talking about but played more into it than any of these things is her getting engaged to Des. I think that... At that point where they were in the show, they already had Kyle and Amanda who were married and that was already a struggle. But then you throw in somebody else who's getting married to someone who's not even on the show, who's much older, doesn't, wouldn't fit in with coming to the show. I, I feel like her getting engaged to Dez was like uh, and she was doing that talk show with Kate Chastain and um, was it Giselle at that time? Like, I think they still wanted her as a Bravo Liberty. Like, they still wanted her around. I just don't think they thought she was a fit for Summer House anymore. And I think it was because you're, you're marrying this guy who doesn't make sense on the show. And she did it very quickly, you know. Yeah, but I think also they had a little audition because Des was on that season and he came in like gross. He was nasty. He was, you know... The stuff about Luke, like that is really, I mean, whatever anyone thinks about Luke, she was really horrible To and about Luke, when she was actually probably stringing him along, seeing both of them at the same time in the early days of the Des relationship. And she and Des came in like these villains just like maniacally laughing over their evil ways and You know, coming out like so thrilled that they're like having sex all over everybody's belongings and in their bathroom. And, you know, like it was just... It was not enjoyable at all. I found them both to be, you know, horrible and I was a fan of Hannah in the beginning. I thought she was Funny and interesting and not your stereotypical kind of like bravo girl and then she turned and she just became. Calculated. She was coming up with, remember the psychic rumor for Lindsay and, you know, it was just like. Nothing was working and I think her personality continues to be exactly the way that we saw it in that last season. Everything I've seen from her that I've reluctantly... Had to see, come up in my feed or whatever. She's, she seems to be exactly the same. That is who she is. And that's not going away. And I don't find it funny, you know, intelligent, interesting, or, you know, Watchable at all. Well, now we know why Paige blocked you. Yeah, okay, shit, I think it's just, oh my god, I've revealed too much. Well, I feel like you're echoing a lot of what Jamie Stein said. Usually if you haven't listened to his podcast, he kind of says very similar things around like the way that She seems really calculated and about like how she showed up and that's actually why she's not there. And it's not because Kyle had the power to get her fired. I'm very interested to see how the spritz talk goes with Craig Connover. I want to announce that we are sponsored by a Spritz company. And it's actually, it's anyone that wants to sponsor us. I'm putting it out there, Craig. This is. Whose side do you want us to be on? Lover boy. We've not gotten a call. So. Send in a pitch. Or just send us a bunch of free lover boy. Yeah, sponsoring us could also just be free lover boy, except like we have to be not pregnant to you. We need the non-Alex right now. Yeah, Carl can hook you up with that, surely. The non-Alex, we'll support Carl. We have been team Carl pretty strong. That would align with our vision. Um, well, we thank you so much for being on and we'll have to have you back. Um, give us your spiel about, uh, Curious Life. I want to hear more about your pod. Uh, so The Curious Life, um, I, it's kind of got two parts to it. One is interviews with, you know, well-known people, kind of about how they turn their tragedies into triumphs from a sort of therapeutic lens. Um, I've had Ryan Bailey on a couple of times from So Bad It's Good. I had Kate Casey on last week. I interviewed Chef Zarina yesterday from Below Deck and she talked all about ADHD. Growing up as a kid and managing that without medication. So that'll be maybe a nice little episode to slip in alongside this one. and then there's a pop therapy, Edition of the show as well, where I'm talking much more about Bravo. So it's all of, I had, you know, Dana Regan on from, um. I was going to say I take Bravo very seriously, but she's the Bravo investigator officially now. She's streamlined. Oh, wow. Um, and yeah, and so I, I kind of am sitting across the two parts of my world, which is, you know, just interesting people and stories and Bravo and reality TV and pop culture. So there's a bit of everything there. For everybody. That's awesome. thank you so much, Shiana. It was so great to talk to you and have another therapist on board. Oh, thank you. I know I'm not very professional in these discussions because I just, the fan in me is very strong. You know, thank you so much for having me and, and for letting me be part of these conversations. I love what you're doing. And I think this is such a unique perspective coming from a therapist and a producer. And, you know, I can't wait to see what comes next for you guys. Well, either the Loverboy sponsorship or So definitely Nick Vile is probably not going to give us any kind of sponsorship either. No, probably not. It just was a little bit of a recap of the Nick Viles podcast. That's all we have. Maybe I'll link it. But I'm definitely gonna link Curious Life. So thank you again. And we'll see you all in two weeks. Beautiful. Thank you.