Paige DeSorbo and Craig Conover Breakup

We're dedicating this episode to the breakup that rocked the Bravoverse—Paige DeSorbo and Craig Conover are officially over. With the split unfolding across Summer House and Southern Charm, we're diving deep into the timeline, the mixed signals, the not-so-subtle shade, and the internet’s reaction to losing Bravo’s golden couple. As feminist boy moms, we’re walking the line—unpacking both sides with empathy and a healthy dose of hot takes. Tune in for the full breakdown, the tea, and what we think comes next for these two reality icons.

Chapters

• 3:59 Intro to Paige and Craig breakup
• 8:46 Craig on summer house
• 16:34 Paige ranking Craig
• 25:37 Paige and Giggly Squad
• 29:28 Craig as a liar
• 37:51 Craig and boundaries
• 43:26 Paige and Craig as a business
• 48:20 How the shows cover the relationship
• 59:31 The rumors post breakup
• 1:06:58 How the men on Bravo are perceived
• 1:13:51 Do we like seeing crossover Bravo couples?

Transcript

Here we are. Here we are. The episode that might get us canceled. Yeah, I'm a little bit worried. but I think we have to speak our truths. Yeah, we have to speak our truth. We're both. Like, feminists that are also boy moms and this is gonna be a tightrope. I agree, I agree. Um, we are covering... The never ending ongoing saga of Paige and Craig Conover's breakup on Bravo covered now on two shows. Right, the tale of like two breakups, right? We have like two stories, two aversions, two experiences that are vastly different. Yeah, and we might be doing this a little early just because I know they're supposedly getting in another fight this episode of Summer House that's supposed to air this week. So we'll do like a Lindsay and Carl, like do an update when it's like all over. But I feel like so much has happened that I'm like, let's just at least get out the initial. I need to process some of our thoughts together and have you guys hear them and then again come for us if if we deserve it because we're open to it. I feel like the energy is so polarized on this topic, but I just like I'm very interested in like Seeing relationships play out, especially like early relationships, right? Like on Housewives, we get a lot of divorces after like ten years where we haven't seen the beginning of their relationship. Right, we've literally been on the journey of this entire relationship from start to finish. Yeah, and obviously they don't film 24-7, but like, we get a lot between Summer House and Southern Charm, and like Lindsay and Carl, just feel like I have so many feelings and thoughts on it, and like, I love to see the struggles of Like a beginning of a relationship because it's so unique as opposed to like on Housewives where it's like they have kids, they've been together a long time, they have lots of money, like there's different dynamics. This is really like. On Housewives, their relationships, like, their marriages are not the center. Like, it's part of the general context of, like, this is part of this person's lives, but, like... Housewives is like more feels like about like female friendships and that's the focus like what's happening in these friendships and then the marriages kind of like come in and out as relevant. Um. So it's not the same as like with a summer house or a southern charm where it's like no actually like there or like a vanderpump rules like where Like, them all hooking up with each other and having relationships with each other is, like, the core of what we're being shown from the beginning, right? Like, we've been with, Craig through multiple relationships. We've been with Paige sort of through multiple relationships or at least like what she's been willing or what has been shown to us. Yeah, I definitely feel like we've gotten more from Craig over the years. Also, like, I feel like Craig got a little bit of a pass in our Fuckboys episode just because he is the most evolved out of every one. Um, but it's interesting to see this season how that's playing out in these like rigid boundaries that he has with the other guys and how that like changed his. Dynamic with them. Um, and like we haven't seen this part of the Southern Charm reunion, but it's like tease that everyone says that they're like scared of Craig. And I do think he's kind of gone from being maybe too loose to being too rigid. But maybe that's just where he is in his process of like becoming a better person. But like, I do think Craig tries, especially he's always tried out of all of the guys. So I don't feel like so, like, I just feel like there's a huge backlash of like, there's a lot of page stands right now. And I support the page stands, but there is a bit of a. I am a page stand. Yeah. You know, like I, from the beginning. have really loved page like I think we should start there that like I think both of us really from the beginning have felt very like connected to page like. She comes off as a girl's girl and that's something like I can relate to. She really puts her loyalty to like women, I guess, minus Lindsay. Maybe that's an interesting dynamic to talk about because I think there's some. Polarities between like what's happening between Paige and Craig and what happened between Lindsay and Carl and sort of like the expectations women have of men to both be these like. Evolved creatures and be like... Traditional sort of like expectations of like that male gender role and I think we see that like confusion play out with Paige in a different way than Lindsay but like a similar sort of like conflict. Oh, definitely. That's where I was gonna go with some of the like, again, because I don't think this is reflective of page. This is also just reflective of the audience and like what people are saying. But I've been seeing these memes from these accounts that blow my mind. It's like Clearly, Paige wasn't interested in Craig. Like, you should have gotten the message. And also, Craig, you should have been a better person. And Paige deserved better and she can treat you like shit if she wants to and you need to still love her and do and everything she wants like What? Like, what standards are we setting? Like, I get it. Like, the standards for men is so low in this society that it's absolutely pathetic. And so I never want to take the stand of like, you're demanding too much. But again, like, I tell my single friends all the time, I'm like, it's not too late for you, like, become a lesbian, just give up men. So I fully support that but like the expectations that I see from like what they're trying to say that Craig should have done or that Paige wasn't getting or that Paige could like be mean, Be disinterested. Tell him that he wasn't number one and he was supposed to still like love her and devote like some of that energy. I'm just like, this isn't also how relationships go. Even if we're not talking about male, female, right? Any relationship. Both people have to be giving a lot and sacrificing a lot and we'll get into all of this, but it's just frustrating that energy of like, now I'm starting to be like, is this what toxic femininity is? And I hate this for myself. I don't know if it's toxic femininity. I think the thing I feel most reactive to is like how much like this breakup, which felt like the first breakup I've experienced on like Bravo, that it felt like. Okay, to me it feels very clear there isn't like a person here who is bad or wrong like clearly like these are two people who really wanted it to work and it didn't work and it probably is best that they're breaking up. But like, is this like it felt like it could have been like this very neutral breakup of like, they did their best they tried their best they were like very cute together we stand them and then they broke up because they like it became more and more clear that they wanted different things. And I wanted that to be the end of it. And then of course, like, similar to like our entire fucking country, it's like turning into this like polarized, like. You have to, like, there's always, there's gotta be sides. There's gotta be one who's wrong. There's gotta be this, like, this is what he did wrong. This is what she did wrong. Like, And it's, like, frustrating to feel like we have to be so, like, polarized. Like, why can't we just have, like, one thing where it's like, no, actually these are two people we, like, have loved for different, in different ways and for different reasons and also felt frustrated with for different reasons. And cause I look at this breakup and I see where they like both there's so there's wrongs on both sides, right? Like neither of them handled this process. Perfectly or well or, you know, and I don't know that any or either of them had any bad intentions. I think it's hard being in relationships are hard. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. Breakups are hard. Yeah. And I think when you see Craig, especially on Summer House versus Southern Charm, like you can tell he's really deeply unhappy. And I think. After three years of the back and forth of like, like the long distance and all the things he wanted and pushing it to the side. Yeah, it's it's making him grumpy and like miserable. And there are some things that Paige is doing to contribute to that and some things that Paige Isn't doing to contribute to that and he should be more supportive of and I want to get into like that new storyline that kind of came up. Um, but yeah, we have seen Craig and Paige. They've both been like this power couple on Bravo. Um, she's got giggly squad. He's got his pillow kingdom. And, you know, Craig has kind of cleaned up his act and really embraced his business. She's really doing her business. There's a lot of weird comparison this season of like whose business is more successful. And I don't know if I like it. First of all, I don't think it was necessary. I think Giggly Squad is huge and major, but like also his pillow empire is like kind of mage too. Like he has two stores, like He went from making like the saddest pillow ever for Patricia to like now actually having a company and like I get people shit on him because he actually has a CEO who like does the job and he's more of the face of the company. but i feel like that's smart business yeah and i mean even his house like how gorgeous his home looked this season and i'm sure paige contributed to all that so i'm not like just attributing this to craig but like remember this is a man that we used to see like Hopped up on Adderall like making crazy pillows in the middle of the night and like, like carting around Naomi's cat like. He's made some big leaps and bounds here, people. Although like the person we saw in Winter House with Paige was definitely, you know, some red flags, but they've been together a long time. so in Southern Charm we hear that like page. And Craig are still living long distance and that Craig is like fantasizing about kids and marriage and beef arms and wants to get a ring and like it's telling everyone like there's this timeline that this ring is going to happen. And then his friends are kind of like, I don't think Paige is on the same page as you know. Then in Summer House, Which is like really only a month after Southern Charm wraps. They've gone to Italy. They've spent some time off camera together. And then Now Paige is going on this big tour and she feels like Craig is not being supportive of that. And there are some things that Craig is doing to make her feel that way. And I feel like her feelings are completely legit. There's also some things that Paige is doing that I don't think she acknowledges, but also like it's built up over time, right? but one thing just to jump off into this. That really irked me about the conversation at the Australian restaurant and then I guess it continued on like the after show was like Paige ranking things in her life. And that really irked me because I had an ex-boyfriend who did this and our relationship always was in the back of my mind in our relationship that like I know I'm not number one. And like, it's also okay to maybe not be number one, but it's actually really not okay to say it. That's actually not like what life looks like, right? We don't move through life with like, this is the ranking, I'm prioritizing things. All the time, right? Like that type of structure is something that needs to be flexible. Like she talked about like when I have kids, like he needs to know my like kids are going to be number one. It's like. Yes, when you have small children, those small children's needs come before your partner's needs. But If you want your relationship and family to last, you also need to figure out where do I also prioritize my relationship to make sure that like. Me and my partner remain emotionally connected remain like and when you have kids you have to also be like where do I prioritize myself and my career and the things that are important to me. So that I make sure I'm a happy and fulfilled person for my children as well and for my right like these things aren't hierarchical in such like the rigid way that it feels like she's presenting them to us. And I wonder like to herself. Yeah, and like one of the things I learned, and you can chime in on your own professional opinion on this, but like when me and my husband went to couples therapy, you know, the kind of like You know, co-operating structure that we would have in our life that our therapist was really kind of like explaining to us is really like, You guys manage yourselves, obviously. And then like your relationship is sacred. And then all these other things are thirds in your life, your career, your parents, your kids even. And like, again, I don't think life is black and white like that. Like, I'm not going to be prioritizing my husband's mood when my newborn is crying. Like, it's not happening. But like once you start saying you're always going to be third in my life, like how do you think that that is going to make your partner feel? Right, and I think this speaks to like what stood out to me about that was this like inter, this like cycle of interaction that feels like it was presenting itself around and we see it start at the very end of Southern Charm. Where she's in the car with him and she's like, oh, this is the last time you're gonna see me and you just don't even know it and she's like kind of giggling and like joking but. He's also sharing like, oh, like something about this feels different. Like this doesn't feel like right or normal. There's clearly an insecurity for him about that. And while I don't think we are responsible for our partner's insecurities. There is something she is playing into about wanting to make him insecure and it's kind of clear in like multiple scenes. And then we see it again, kind of like. With all the stuff around, I'm an independent woman. I like, there's sort of like her wanting him to know, like, I'm going to keep you at arm's length. And then she's, like, annoyed when he's feeling insecure and wanting, like, validation of, like, wait, do you still love me? Do you still want to be with me? Like, do you, like, you have this career and I didn't get the sense that his... Experience of her tour was about him not supporting her. I, I got that it was coming from his insecurity. And again, she's not responsible for that, but it. What like from a like couples therapist perspective, I would have wanted them to sit with like, can you sit with like what this feels like for each of you like. Cause it feels like there's just like his experience of insecurity. That's all he's feeling and her experience of needing her independence and needing to be like, A career driven woman who's validated for those things. And so then they're seeking like validation and that puts them on like separate islands from each other. And it's not like either of them is wrong in their needs, but there's no like sitting, like taking a moment to consider like, what is this experience like for the other person? Definitely and I think that's like something that is very rewarding when you go to couples therapy is the different exercises and things that they have you do where you really put yourself and there's so many different ones but like. Put yourself in that other person's experience because I can totally understand why Paige is interpreting Craig's words the way that they are because they are coming off that way. But I also see like the deeper thing that's going on. This has been three years. He's told you what he wants. You're really never giving him an inch. And like, you're, you're blatantly telling him you're not as important as not only her career, but like often she's always saying my parents, like my mom, my dad. And like, even in that Australian restaurant, she's like, I would never and sorry, this was a personal arc as well. Like, I would never like not listen to my parents because they're right about everything always. And I was like, Oh my god, what? Are your parents, who are your parents and why have we met them? Because how is that even possible? But like, also Craig's like, but I'm gonna be your husband. Like, If your parents say like, I want you to do X, Y, and Z and I'm saying something else, you're blatantly telling me you're going to pick your parents over me. It's interesting because if we talk about our parents and like it was in one of the seasons when Sierra first started she talks she's like having a conversation with Sierra about like dads and family and she brings up this idea of like. Whenever I date, like, I compare all men to my dad and all relationships to my parents' relationships and they're very in love. I try to do some research to find out her dad's a lawyer and her mom's career is unknown. I get the sense that maybe she, like, Given that they were a very typical like Italian-American family, like I am making assumptions, but I'm assuming she was likely a stay-at-home mom. And so it feels like there's this idealization again like going back to that idea of like what she wants is is in conflict with each other like it feels like she's idealizing this like Man who works, woman who gets to do family, like this really traditional family structure, and a man who plays a very, like, typical male-dominated role, and a woman who plays that role, and then You know, in her actual life she doesn't like right there's like a no actually that's not what I want and it feels like this like push pull in her that like doesn't doesn't know who she is. I think your early 30s and she talks about this a lot during the breakup episode of Giggly Squad like and I don't listen to Giggly Squad like that much. Sam does more so she'll reference it more but like that breakup like episode she talks about how like Like, she thought she wanted these things, but now, you know, she's figuring herself out. And you're, really, your early 30s is when it's like, shit hits the fan. Like, you gotta shit or get off the pot in If you get married in your 20s, like, you're already, like, you're in it. But, like, in your 30s, you're learning so much about yourself. And I totally relate to Paige in the sense that I was in a long-term relationship, broke up in my early 30s. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me because the next person I ended up with was my husband. And like, I knew what I wanted. And I think for Craig and Paige, I see this for them. Like, I see that the next person they're going to be with is going to be Well, maybe more Craig than Paige just because I think Paige doesn't really want a relationship right now, which is, like, great. Um, but... a lot of the criticism being like she'd you know who she started Out with Craig and who she is now is very different. And that's fine. Like that's totally valid. I think that's totally valid. And I think like her sort of sarcastic kind of harsh way of being with Craig sometimes. I relate to as a New Yorker, as like a, you know, a strong woman, like I get that. And there's often times where I've had to like evolve, like especially being with a cancer man that's like very sensitive. I've been like, oh, okay, like. This is actually hurting his feelings. Let's talk this out. And a lot of times it's like misunderstandings too. And I think Paige felt Impatient with that at times, I feel like. Um, I know a lot of people online were sort of criticizing the conversation she had with Sierra as well. Because, like, Sierra was kind of blocking the camera and, like, mouthing things to her. I know there's this whole narrative now that Craig is like this PR genius. Um, I don't, I don't know. I've never seen that from him, but, and if he is, he's not doing a good job. Yeah, I think, well, I appreciate what, like, when she, Paige, first kind of rolled out the breakup, she really tried to Do it in the, and I think that's why I had so much hope it was going to be sort of this like mutual respectful experience between the two of them and for us as an audience who's like Not used to being in that place with things and maybe that is a little more boring but I think I don't know right now maybe I just like need more. Um, but then it feels like, that messaging she kind of gave around, like, yeah, being a woman in your 30s, Being able to like make choices and decide when something isn't right for you and take that on like I think that's an important especially for women in the city which it's can be real dating is really hard in the city I know a lot of. You know, single women in their 30s who struggle it's it's tough and so to give them the message that like you like you'd rather that than be in a relationship that doesn't fulfill you or that isn't right for you and that isn't like filled with your choices. I think where I kind of, like, struggle is this narrative she's holding about, like, independent women that feels, like, very rigid to me. Oh, yeah. And she's sort of naming this idea of, like, an independent woman, like, can't, I think there's many ways to be an independent woman and, like, the way she's doing it is one way and, um. An independent woman can get married. An independent woman can have like family and children and like all of these things and it feels like she's having a hard time like integrating like How can I both be independent and successful and have a relationship and like maybe with Craig you can't I don't know like I don't know if like they did enough work to figure out what that would look like. they come from two different cultures. Very, like, New York City culture is so specific. It is harsher. It is more upfront. It is more, like, quick. It's more, right, like... Independent woman focused where like Charleston what we see right like it's slow it's very like patriarchal still like the role women play is very specific and I'm sure. That did affect Craig's ability to support her in the ways that she needed to be supported and I imagine it impacted his ability to understand her needs and her ability to understand his needs. Well, and Jamie Stein has this great episode about triangulation on Summer House, and he really tapped in on like page definitely has some unresolved issues around men and I don't. Really have much to expand on that other than I definitely think, you know, the whole feminist movement of hating men right now I'm in full support of, let's just be clear. Because what's even happening in our world? Yeah, I'm there. But there's a bit of a bitterness in there and she did talk about in the breakup episode that she had had this like abusive relationship when she was Really young, like I want to say like 1920 and like colored a lot of where she went from that. And yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of issues that Paige and she talks about being in therapy and she was having these panic attacks and. When you start having like a panic attack like that, there is deeper shit going on. So I am like really proud of her for like recognizing that, walking away from this relationship. I just think Like, Craig is pretty open about like, I'm struggling with this breakup. And I think Paige is kind of like, I'm good. But like outwardly, I'm seeing that she's struggling because I think some of the backlash and like The comment, like, I think Craig was mentioning, like, the way she writes comments and blah, blah, blah. That was never, like, the girl I dated. Like, I think a little bit of that is a bit of, like, lashing out. Like, because... I think she's going through almost the same emotions as Craig is, if not, like, her own stuff, too. And if she's in therapy, she's probably working through a lot of this stuff. And I think... You know, she is breaking down some pretty big like from childhood built in, like you said, traditional ideas and changing and evolving them. And that is hard work. So. I get it, but I think Paige is going through a harder time with this breakup than the way she's like letting on with it. And that is coming out in different various ways because I think if Paige was being Her, you know, most together self, I think she would have held strong to what happened in that first episode of Giggly Squad and just let it go. i do think there is something like about page that is very like controlled right like even when we see her get into conflict with other people like. We never see her get activated like a Lindsay, right? Like, even, like, when she's yelling, there is, like, a type of control it feels like she has on what she's saying, how she's showing up, like... There's something so regulated about her and yet like I know on Giggly Squad I can't remember, sometimes it's hard to remember what she said on Giggly Squad versus what she said on Summer House. I do think she exposes more about herself on Giggly Squad because I think she can control it. Right. You can edit that yourself. You get decision. You get to make your own decision making that on the show where like, there's a lot more risk of like producers get to use what they want to use. And so you got to show up in a very different way. Um, but she talks about having anxiety and having, like, different, like, mental health stuff and yet, like, We don't, like, see it in the way that, like, it just feels like she's so controlled in what she's showing us and I feel like that's, like, how she's showing up to this breakup and I think she put that podcast out wanting, like, Again, the narrative to be controlled of, like, this is mutual, this is calm, like, it doesn't need to be drama, like, because I don't think she wants to play into that. And then I think All that stuff came out about like her potentially cheating or be like, I think she like lost control of a narrative. And I don't know if any of that's true or like even care. Um, because yeah, I don't. If she cheated, like, do you? Like, do whatever, like, you get to, like, you get to make your decisions and experience your experience. Um, plenty of the men on Southern Charm have cheated and, like. Like, I'm not buying the double standard that she's not allowed to, like, have her experience. But it does feel like because that came out, she lost control. And that's where, like, it feels like things, like, switched in a way that, like, didn't feel good anymore. That it felt like... Oh, like, this is Paige really, not knowing how to respond to this. I don't believe she cheated at all. I never did. But I think that period of when they had the initial breakup conversation, which was They both agree it happened right after Thanksgiving till she announced it slash basically New Year's, I think was a very big gray area and very confusing for both of them. And I think. It's interesting that there's this narrative that Craig is like a liar. And I don't necessarily- I mean, he is, right? He historically has admitted, right? There's the whole scene at early seasons of Southern Charm. Where he's in like a life coaching session. I don't think it's an actual therapy session because it didn't seem like that was like a real therapist. But he basically acknowledges like I am a really good liar and I do it a lot because it gets me what I want. See, that's it. I do remember that. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I'm still dying over his quote. I'm a storyteller and a lawyer. Right, I think, I think lying for him has never, it's never been about hurting anyone, right? Like, I think wherever that came from for him, it's been like this survival strategy that has, let him, Navigate the world and get the things that he wants in a world that like hasn't always suited him I think in our fuck boys episode we talk about How he is kind of like this creative soul in a world of misogynists who don't believe men should be creative souls. And so I think that lying likely played a role in being able to navigate living in a world that he didn't fit in it. it's challenging for me to think about Craig as a liar in the same way that Jax Taylor is a liar, right? Like Jack Taylor slept with Faith next to an elderly woman and lied about it. You know, like that's lying to me. Maybe also because I'm getting a little bit affected by the Bravo verse in general, like this concept of like lying or not lying. Mm-hmm. Is kind of breaking my brain and I know we talk about this a lot. Because they all lie. Because Paige lied too. Like, they're all liars. Like, You're showing like just as a reality star you have to be like somewhat of a liar right because you're saying this is my real life and like sure it is but it's also not. Well, and beyond that, let's be honest, like, we all have our own experiences. Like, in real life, outside of reality TV, you talk to five different people. I also work in true crime, so let me tell you, like, Human's memory is the least fallible. Yeah, like least reliable thing. If you talk to five people to explain the same Well, also memory is up to, like, interpretation. It's up to perspective. And all of that is based on, like, our experiences in the world. Like, we're going to interpret and understand something based on our experience. And so if my experience is different than your experience... Like similar to like all of these different podcasts including ours where it's like we are interpreting these shows through our own lenses. And I mean, I think it's obvious that Craig was in denial about this relationship. He's been in denial about this relationship for years. I even think like when he went on Watch What Happens Live and he was like, I hate when people say love is not enough. Love is enough. I'm like, he is still, he's not grown up enough because I think his next relationship, he is going to learn like love is not enough. And I think when he gets married, when he has kids, he's going to learn that more because he definitely has a bit of like a Fantasy, like he, he loves to idealize relationships. So funny because my husband's like this too, but like, and I love that. And I think Paige loved that aspect of him too. I remember the scene on the goat farm. She's like, I'm a girl. Of course I like to fantasize. But here's the thing, like, people are really sparsing, like, whether Paige would have ever said, let's get married at BravoCon or would have asked for the ring. And I'm like, I sent you that link today. There was something on Instagram today where someone found a video of her at BravoCon talking about getting engaged at BravoCon. We're eloping, eloping at BravoCon. Yeah, she was like fully ready to get married the last BravoCon and he was like, no. And she was like, it's on him that we're not married. And I have seen her say when people asked her about getting engaged, she said, well, he has to buy me a ring. It's up to him. And, and she's not wrong. I mean, like the whole proposal thing, if you go the traditional route is like the guy needs to, you know, man up, get the ring and whatever. Like, let's be honest, most people, they have. But if you're, like, also giving this whole spiel about being an independent woman, like, I don't know, if you want to marry someone, then you get the ring and marry them, like. I, like, if you're really trying to undo patriarchy here, like, shouldn't you be the one proposing, Missy? If you are the more... Like, if you want to really undo these gender dynamics. Which is, like, so funny because I would never think of. And I think he would have loved to be proposed to. I think, again, he's like, he's a creative. He is, like. And I think that's what attracted her to her to him is that he is like probably the opposite of her father like even though he's technically a lawyer as well. Oh yeah, and a storyteller. But he's a storyteller before any of it. Um, and I think that's something, like, I do think she idealizes this one idea but then, like, wants something very different and it all gets very confusing. Yeah, because I want to say, like, I don't see Paige as being the gender... I mean, she's the girliest girl you can like find and go back to like season with Carl like he's not he's not putting enough effort in to spend time with me outside like there's like it's again she's she I think she does give mixed messages. And I do think she gave him, like, he was in deep denial, but I also do feel like she gave him deeply mixed messages that like. Would have been confused because I remember listening to Giggly Squad and people would be like, they're definitely going to break up. And I'd be like, she's talking about having kids with this guy. She's talking about like how they're talking about their children's names. Like he is not in so much denial that there is no evidence that For what he's thinking and feeling right like it's not that like they're making it like he was fully delusional and I don't think I don't think he was delusional. I do think when the breakup happened, it was interesting in this reunion this week. He spoke about how he was with, um, Austin when it happened and he didn't want to tell Austin because he was afraid Austin would like tell the bloggers or whoever and then the whole world would know. And that if the whole world knew, he said it would be real. And so there was like, he acknowledges he was in denial, right? Like he acknowledges like. I wasn't ready to, like, look at that we had actually broken up. And so when I went on Watch What Happened Live and denied that we broke up, that was my truth in that moment. Was that, like, the truth of, like, was that the shared truth of everyone? Like, no, but that was... I believe that that was his truth in that moment. Yeah, I mean, listen, I think when me and my ex broke up, it was like, Six months to a year of us being in the status that they were in for like a month. So like met like breakups are messy. And I didn't interpret that as being like somebody lied. Somebody did. Did give, I do think Paige gave mixed messages, but at the same time, I don't think it was intentional. I think that she just, she, you know, I relate to her again because she's brain to mouth. I think she didn't know what she wanted. You know? She did it and she was brain to mouth. Some days you want to go live in a farm because you're sick of New York City and some days you're living your best fucking life in New York. That is being young and successful in New York and like doing all the things she's doing. I do have issue with the... Independent woman thing because I think we've spread this, this propaganda of like, be an independent woman. So hardcore, which I love. Like, I'm an independent woman. Like, sure. But also it's like being in a real partnership and trusting that person and being safe with that person and being able to be dependent on that person is also really rewarding and like it's okay like. It doesn't make you less successful or more of like an independent woman quote unquote like whatever that means like to also be in a relationship and be like I need this person to help me like I need this person to be there for me. And I think there was not safety for either of them, really. And a lot of it, I mean, obviously goes back to the long distance relationship of it all. I'm curious your thoughts like, do you think if they had moved to the same location like a year into their relationship do you think they would still be together? No, I think that it would have probably ended quicker. Wow. I think what I'm seeing play out has nothing to do with like distance. I think there's a deeper core like want for different things. A deeper core like way they understand life differently. And I think honestly, Craig would have stayed forever. Like, I think he wouldn't have been the one to end it, but I think she would have ended it because I think at the end of the day she was, like, not necessarily fully attracted to the way he is as, like, a man and a person in the world. And like as much as he had changed and grown, I think there was too much about him that like, it was clearly giving her the ick. Well, that's what I, the thing I loved about their relationship was like when he was with Naomi, she wanted that traditional man, right? She didn't like his pillow making. That was made clear. And what I loved about Paige was that she seemed to really embrace his business. And then he was going to be like the male Martha Stewart. And that makes me sad to hear that because that was my favorite part about their relationship. What do you think they would have made it? I'm curious what you think. Um, kind of. My husband's on your same side. He was like, no, they would never have made it. I kind of feel like maybe they would have. Um, I think he had changed and it's interesting you talk about his, I know it was much earlier you were talking about his boundaries with like his friends and the castmates on Southern Charm and how much they have changed. And I think part of them changed because he's internalized how Paige holds her boundaries because I think she's really kind of rigid and strict with her boundaries. And now he's behaving in that way because he sees it modeled for him. And I think it's one of the things personally I love about Paige is that she has these boundaries and she's like, this is what it is. And like, I'm not like, I'm not going to fake it. I'm not going to pretend. And it feels like Craig was, like, internalizing that. Like, no, like, this is where I am now in my life. You either accept me as I am or you don't. And I wonder if she saw him like kind of morphing into some version of her and then having to like look at parts of herself and like be like, no, I don't want to be like, I don't want someone who's like this close to being like. I don't know. Well, okay, let's get into this because, you know, there's a lot of talk of like Paige fixing Craig and she did. Let's be clear. Paige fixed Craig. And I think he gave her all the credit, right? Like he, I think he's very much like, without her, I would not be the man I am right now. Yeah, definitely. And like when you see where they started out at Winter House to like where he is now, I mean, like, I mean, some of that attitude is still kind of there, let's be honest. But like. You know, I think Paige very much took pride in kind of fixing him, whether it be like his style, whether it be like his house, whether it be whatever. And Craig really welcomed that, but I wonder if that served Paige well because I think it fed into an unhealthy dynamic in the relationship too. And also like just to touch on, you know, Craig admitting he was like an addict this season or an alcoholic. I am very confused, FYI, because this happens on Southern Charm. Then on Summer House, we get the Kyle and Craig Spritz fight. How does no one point out you're now like gonna be a co-owner of this alcohol company after you just admitted on camera you're an alcoholic. Like, why? And are still, like, drinking. Like, there's definitely some... He's... But I don't know. Like, if you look at all of, like, the... Research on addiction and recovery is that it's a journey that has many stages and like the beginning stages are one like acknowledging you have a problem and then working through like. Different like ambivalence and resistance you have towards like totally changing that behavior and we see that a lot with like Shep right like where he like totally recognizes that he has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and yet like. There's this, and I'm sure we're gonna see it with Jax too, a lot. God. Um, again, I think he's kind of like a different beast, um, to say the least. Um. Um, but I think it's normal to kind of go through this sort of like. Confusing path of like you acknowledge something and that doesn't mean that you're like ready to change it. I do think it is interesting that like no one brought that up to be like, why is this even something you wanted if you're saying you're struggling with this thing. And I think some of that plays out because like these are two different shows, two different production companies. I'm surprised no one at Bravo kind of brought it up, but maybe there's different execs on Bravo too. Because it was such a big storyline on Southern Charm. So it was weird to me. and also that Paige didn't bring it up. I'm curious your thoughts on that scene in the kitchen with Craig where he says to her. I'm an alcoholic and like her react. There was something. What was her reaction? Remind me. She was sort of like there is such a big stigma, especially in our generation of like talking about these things. And then they talk about how Craig was so appreciative that she didn't leave him when he hit rock bottom, but doesn't. Neither of them elaborate on what the rock bottom was. And then she goes, you know, if it happens again in the middle of the night with the kids, I'm leaving. Like, it was an interesting conversation. I am remembering this now. this feels like more of an issue I feel like I have sometimes with Paige than Craig is that, like, I don't feel like I know enough about something to like, and, and then it like, I feel like part of why I didn't remember it was because I feel like. They didn't allow me into it, right? Like, they're giving us the surface information of something, but not actually letting us into, like, well, what was that rock bottom? Like, how, like, Can we understand, like, why Paige stayed or why, like, what was rock bottom about it? And Paige like protected Craig. I want to say like for sure. I mean, he did get kicked out of Amanda and Kyle's wedding. It's now been admitted. Um, at least she has an interesting relationship with like loyalty, right? Like I think when you are her people, her loyalty to you is very strong. But you lose that loyalty and look what happens now. Like, I mean, it's very, it's very Italian sopranos. I don't disagree with it. I mean, Southern Charm cast and Summer House cast feel like they're at war like Avengers at this point, but we don't know enough about the scene that she has with Lindsay, which I'm assuming is going to be in the finale. She says Craig was talking to other girls like. I do think throughout their relationship, Paige protected Craig. Like, just even on the wedding issue, you know, she went on the reunion and said that wasn't true. And she obviously lied. That was obviously a lie from Paige. But if we also, like, look at it from this angle, like, that relationship was, like, she kind of came out and talked about how Lindsay and Carl were, like, A PR relationship, and while I don't think her and Craig were a PR relationship, there was a business-wise mutually beneficial thing about them being This beloved Bravo couple that I think did, like, enable their stars to shine brighter and their businesses to make more money. And I know we haven't seen this scene either. Yeah. I wish we would have waited till this scene came out because I'm curious what the context to it is where she's like crying saying I want to break up with Craig but I'm afraid I'll lose everything. And so she clearly is connecting that, like, as much as she has fixed him, being with him has brought her things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Definitely. And how can it not? And, and I, and I mean, I think even her reacting to Carl and Lindsay. It was coming from a place of like, I also understand this. And I think she talked about it too, like the pressure of being a Bravo couple. Mm-hmm. And how that can make you accelerate your relationship very quickly. And I think she was very down to earth and she kept very strong. And even with the breakup, like, I'm really, again, I just want to say, like, I am proud of her for ending this relationship. It was clearly not right for her. This relationship clearly needed to end. And she did it in the best way she can. Was it messy that month? Yeah, I think it was messy. I don't believe... I actually feel like it didn't get messy till after. Like, that month, I feel like it was like, okay, this, we're all just sitting, and now I feel like now that the shows are really rolling out, this is where the mess is coming. I don't believe you can end a three-year relationship on a FaceTime when he's about to go on a pillows and beer Toronto. No, I don't think that that was. The fact that she wants to say that that was the end of their relationship, fine, girl. But like, if it was, like, probably not the best way to break up with someone you've been with three years on a FaceTime. Um, I think when I say messy, I feel like it was messy in the emotions and the mixed messages. I don't know. She said the Bravo con thing. I don't know what was going on with the ring. Could Craig be completely lying about all of this? Let's be honest, yeah, maybe. Um. Well, and again, like, lie or is that his, like, the experience that he believes to be true but understands maybe isn't, like, the... Shared reality. I mean, JT didn't call Patricia a bitch. Right. But he did say some weird shit. So, like, I could see how he experienced that. I mean, I guess he's still gonna claim on the reunion that it just wasn't on camera that he said bitch, but It's like JT and Vanita and their whole messy thing. Like clearly JT is not innocent either. So I mean, yeah, he's an embellisher as Austin likes to say. What are you thinking about how like the two shows are playing this out and I'm curious what you're thinking about like how when each person is on the other person's retrospective show like when Craig is on Summer House or Paige is on Southern Charm. How they, like, present either similarly or differently. Yeah. So I have a lot of thoughts on this. Uh, yeah, I mean, I think people are really deeply unsatisfied by that finale scene in Southern Charm. And I want to agree with that, but have like kind of some insight on why I feel like it was like that. I think the episode was locked and probably maybe even shipped to Bravo at that point. And they were like, we gotta add the scene. We gotta shoot this thing. And they were like, okay, fine, but we're not recutting the whole show. So like, we can give you. Three minutes and it just became a chopped up scene and it was just so poorly put together. And I understand the financial reasons for why that happened. But I think it was just poor storytelling personally. The finance versus creativity problem. Yeah, they were like, okay, we got to shove this scene in the last minute. And it just was like, okay, so we got random sound bites from Craig that like barely made sense. Like, no, they should have cut the whole. Maybe speaks to like where it was really at at that point. Well, Bravo should give them more money and they should have cut the whole Taylor Sally storyline from that finale because it was the most useless. Scenes that I've ever seen and made a five minute scene of Craig telling his version of the breakup. Like, that's what we deserved. Let's just be clear. on Summer House, like, there's very different production companies that make both these shows. And the production company that makes Summer House also makes Winter House. They have very different styles of shooting. Southern Charm is very much like, hey, we're going to shoot this party. We're going to shoot this scene. They arrange everything. They shoot in a very regular schedule. They don't shoot 24-7. So Craig feels safer with his, like, with the Southern Charm production team. And even just the style of how they shoot these scenes are like a little bit more set up. They're a little bit more range. They, they don't have like a crazy schedule. Summer House is like two months of like Non-stop, weekend, 24-7 surveillance cameras. And a lot of, like, the actual Bravo stars, when they were getting offers to go on Winter House, um, Tom Sandoval actually talked about this, was that he, they don't like Like, that there's surveillance cameras because they're so not used to that. Because a lot of these Bravo shows are like, okay, you're going to show up at this restaurant to shoot with Lala and you're going to talk about this. So, like, they know... Generally what they're going into or they're going into an event where they know like shit's gonna go down, but like not in their bedroom a surveillance camera. So it is like a really different experience. So that being said, I think Craig has obviously gone on Summer House quite a lot and almost every summer he's given Pretty hefty scenes where they talk about their relationship. I think we've often gotten more from Summer House than we have Southern Charm on their relationship. He definitely doesn't come on like controlled and like. He definitely seems uncomfortable especially I feel like this season when he's coming on like there's like this power dynamic between him and Kyle right Kyle wanting to have this conversation and Craig being like no I'm gonna like do this power move of like saying no now and then. When I say yes, I'm gonna make you wait while I go to a hundred different things. But didn't it remind you of Austin? Like, how he dealt with Austin all season two? Mm-hmm. Like, but again, it feels like these are like now how he's trying to like, bring in more rigid boundaries and be more in control in this way that like pages but he's just not like, doing it as well as she does it. Yeah, and I mean, okay, so here's the thing. I don't like what Shep said about Giggly Squad, like respect to Giggly Squad. Like, I love it and I'm also. And disrespect to anything Shep says. Yeah, oh, disrespect to anything Shep said. We did drag his ass on the, uh. And we'll drag it again if he needs us to. And I'm also deeply scared of the Giggly Squad. I feel like they could murder me. But, needless to say, like, Shep's point about Paige not going on the cast trips, while it's fair that Paige doesn't go the cast trips, it's fair. I did kind of feel less so this season because I remember she was like, I have a photo shoot. I can't come. And it was really like a weird trip about Shep and Sienna. But last season was just like. Why didn't you go on this trip? It was like Craig's trip. It was supposed to be a trip where he brought Paige so everyone could get to know Paige, but then didn't tell her, but like, She didn't know, but then she couldn't like, there was no good reason. And it was like, it seemed really kind of hurtful. But also I'm like, I wish there'd been more explanation. Is it like she's feeling pushed into this? Right. Like, I don't know if I believe this narrative that like, she should have to be on his show. Right? Like, I don't, like, we see Brett, like, he doesn't go on any of the cast trips and like, you know, I don't think that she needs to show up. But I think the difference is she is, like, also a reality star and knows, like, what this stuff means. And then there isn't, yeah, like you said, the explanation, the, like... This is why it makes sense that that I'm not going like I want to make sure like this show is about you and not about us like. That would have, like, sat better with me than just, like, oh, I have, like, some other jobs that, like, clearly all this stuff takes pre-planning and so, like, why is it suddenly that Craig has planned this trip for you to come and suddenly you have another job to do? Yeah. I mean production throws these things together rather rather quickly but not that quickly like they tell they would tell her and I think Someone was saying she doesn't get paid for the show. I don't know. I don't have any inside knowledge on this to be clear, but I find it very hard to believe these People are both signed with Bravo that they don't get paid when they go on each other's show. Right, that could not be true. Yeah, if you have an entertainment lawyer, there is no way Paige is going on episodes of Southern Charm without a fee. And getting nothing. Now, Brett gets a fee when he goes on and deals with her. Um, he could go on the cash trip and make more money if he wanted to. He doesn't want to make more money. Like, that's how the show works. Like, if you appear on the show and you're a regular, you get paid. Now, like, Austin's girlfriend, maybe not. She's not really serious at this point. but I would think Madison's husband gets paid some amount of money. Um, but like regardless, I just felt like It goes back to the bigger picture of their relationship where it did always seem like she wasn't giving as much as Craig. And while I don't think that's fair for Paige because I'm sure she did. It's just because of the way he showed up filming and you didn't show up filming. And I think it goes back to something you said, the frustrating part about Paige is like, She is such an open book on Giggly Squad. She's got this quick wit. She's even her argument. She's always on point, right? But there is a lack of vulnerability that we don't really see from her. And I am interested to see this crying scene. And I think people pointed it out with the Sierra scene where they're like, why are they having this weird controlled conversation? Right. Why are the secrets like Yeah, and like even it's hard to imagine on Summer House where there's surveillance cameras 24-7, you don't get that level of vulnerability. Another very minor moment that I saw and I don't know if this is aired yet or I saw a preview for next week. But they were getting ready to leave. And Paige is sitting on her phone and Craig's trying to like talk to her and he's like, she's like, will you sit down? And will you take out your phone? And will you be on your phone so I can be on my phone? I did see that and I kind of loved it. I loved it too, but it's like, again, it's like, these are little things where I'm like, you are a little checked out, girl. Well, and I mean her whole identity is like the bed bug, right? Like, we love it and it's cute, but it's also like. She doesn't like necessarily like even like going back to like when she dated Perry and like there was this whole controversy of like did he not want to be on the show? Did she not want him to be on the show? I was doing some like deep Reddit dives that were saying that he like came out and Because I guess during that season she had said he doesn't want to come and he came and said no she didn't want me to come. And there's like this mixed messaging of whether like it was him or her that like didn't want to be part of it and to me it kind of tracks in the way that she like again wants to like very much control her narrative in a very. Rigid way that she might be like, don't come on. Yeah, I mean, Hannah and Dez's marriage kind of fascinates me because it is so, it's like that, uh, you always said you loved Craig and Paige's like, Non-traditional type of relationship. And I'm like, I think Des and Hannah seem to have a very non-traditional relationship, like way more so. 100%. And I wonder how much that influences Paige too, but I used to really love Giggly Squad, but I've been seeing a lot of clips that kind of make me feel like I'm aging out of it in a weird way. One of the things like they talk a lot about having kids and maybe it's just because I'm having my first kid and it's such a life changing experience I think I said when I was trying to get pregnant to you, I was like, I'm really afraid of how this is going to hold back my career because I'm trying to do all these things. How am I going to do all these things with having a baby? And you were like, I got the most accomplished ever when I was pregnant. And then I was like, yeah, okay. And so since I've been pregnant, I've been doing more with my career than I ever have been. I'm not going out drinking. I'm not having. I'm working and I'm sleeping and there is an element where like Paige and Hannah have this dialogue on Giggly Squad where they're just like So terrified that a baby is going to derail their whole life. And it does. But it also there's so many more like rewarding things about it, too. And I like. I wish they would have like another female, maybe Lindsay is kind of, I don't know how, but like, you know, I don't know to be like, okay, but it doesn't end your whole life. Like, And maybe they're just not. Well, again, I wonder, like, they come from, again, these more, like, traditional and I know, um, Hannah's mom worked. She was a principal to a school in Brooklyn. I love how you have this information. Like, literally listen to, like, ten episodes max and you'll have probably even more than I have because, you know, I only retain about 10% of information. Um. Um, but they're, they're, they talk a lot about their personal lives on it. But I think they come from these more traditional families where having kids really did like and think about it back in like the 80s like and early 90s like having a kid probably did mean something different than it means in 2025. Yeah. Where like, you can't survive in this world on a one income family like that ain't gonna work so like a kid ruining a woman's career is like actually not possible because you're gonna like. Get back to work and put that kid in daycare if you're lucky enough to have someone to watch it like it's it's not like that narrative of like what it used to be like back in the 80s and yeah. Pre that time of like having a kid met like a woman turns into a mother is not, that doesn't have to be your narrative anymore. Well, I think Lindsey is giving that and will continue hopefully on Roni. Seems like it. Yeah, that side of the story. I mean, if we keep pushing it, it may happen. I mean, I do. This is a side story. But like, I know Danielle was getting hit a lot for like her questioning on the whole Turner relationship. And I was someone had to do it. Someone had to do it. Someone had to ask the question. Like, no one had asked those questions. I mean, it's insane. Like, the Lindsay trajectory of, like. There's nothing wrong with any of it. Like, do you make your choices? Like. You know, you're allowed to do what you want with your body and your life. But like, you're on a reality show. People are gonna ask these questions given the timeline. Yeah. Well, and also I think we saw in the last episode of Summer House, like, I don't think she's As over the Carl breakup as she makes it seem like, let's just be clear. And it's interesting because someone made this analogy that they thought Craig was going to be how Lindsay is. And I totally agree. But I also think Craig did take some time to like process it. I think Paige jumping into this quasi whether it's real or not relationship. A, I think she shouldn't have been criticized for it, but she should also have known. This is what pisses me off. She blamed Craig for all that stuff and rumor. That was not fair. Like, girl, go to you. Be on the streets. See whoever you want. Like... Like, do that. Like, you're allowed to do what you want and you should do what you want and you should, like, like, you were in this relationship. It was really serious. And now you want to maybe just, like, be free and, like, that's beautiful and great. And you're a reality star. And so, like, I think she's been so used to, again, being so in control of her narrative and people, like, I don't think there's been a big history of people being anti-page. Like, maybe I'm missing it. Like, yeah. Maybe it's my sort of bubble of Instagram has just always been like gigglers and pro page. But even in her like beef with Lindsay, and I know a lot of people are like really pro Lindsay, it never felt like people were like. Hated on page in a, in like a really strong narrative way that like. Made her out to ever be like the villain or the bad guy or and I feel like this is the first time she hasn't fully been in control of her narrative and I think it's. Hard for her to like navigate how to handle that and this expectation that Craig, you know, sitting there kind of like, I'm imagining him sewing like a broken hearted pillow together. To, like, mend his broken heart. Um, that he should come out and be like, no, Paige would never, like, the fact that he should come out and defend her, like, that doesn't feel fair. That doesn't feel like... And it did feel to me, me and my friend Tracy watched the like, watch what happens live together because she was like, I don't think he said she didn't. And he didn't really but he also was like, I don't think she did that like I don't think she he did say I don't think she cheated on me. Well, regardless, the villain here is Dumois. The villain is Dumois. She... Or he, or it, whatever that collective Instagram is, is the one who was spreading the rumors about Paige you know, Had the photos from the Super Bowl, had her holding hands and had that she was with him on New Year's, like not Craig. Like Craig never, unless Craig is writing into Dumas, which we know he's not because Dumas also broke the story of him kissing Kristen Cavallari back in the day. So you know he doesn't write in. Like, what is she mad at Craig about? And like, at the end of the day, Shep and the other guys in the show believe it. Like, let's be clear. And Taylor said it, you know, two seasons ago. But I never believed it. I don't know why it matters. But also it's like when you have those kind of things coming at you, it's so much better to just like take it on the chin. And I wish she would have. Mm-hmm. But I think you're right. I don't think she was. I, I, one thing I know that Craig is getting a lot of shit for, but I think he's right, is that, like, she thought that this breakup was going to go a certain way. Mm-hmm. But she could control the narrative. Mm-hmm. And she should have known. Like, you guys are beloved Bravo characters. And Craig is, like, clearly unwell. He's gonna say whatever the fuck he wants. Embellisher and, like, storyteller and a lawyer. Like, you don't have control over him anymore. and the fact that she thought that she could and then like, I do think the scene with Lindsay feels lashing out at him, you know? Mm-hmm. But then again, I don't know. We haven't seen it yet. Maybe this is true that Craig was cheating on her and it was the other. I mean, was Craig potentially texting with girls during their relationship? Like, sure. But like, If that was a really big deal to you, why didn't you break up with him then? And now it feels like you're just using it as a way. It feels very similar to like what Lindsay's going to do to Carl now. It's like bring up something that has nothing to do with like writing. Why the breakup happened as a way to damage someone's character when clearly if you knew this information before why didn't you bring it to us then because you were clearly somewhat okay with it or felt like you worked through it enough to like. Still want to be with this person for however much longer you were with them because it doesn't sound like that's the reason they broke up. And you know, I know that she keeps being like, I don't get why he's angry with me and I don't get why he's still processing this breakup and blah, blah, blah. I think Carl's going through a lot. We could do another update on their whole breakup. But, um. That's interesting because I think there's a lot of parallels here. Yeah. Because I do think Carl is trying to be happy for Lindsay and trying to move on but also like going through some like genuine emotions of what it's like to like everyone was upset that he said like oh she like conceived this baby in the bed that I bought and it's like Yeah, he's still like, like, it hurts to see your ex get pregnant four months after you, or how, like, you know. Yeah. Very shortly after you broke up. Like, that hurts. And he's a person and has feelings and it feels like there is sort of a wanting to like demonize like male pain a little bit that doesn't feel like. There should be a little more space for men to, like, be emotional and have their emotions and when he said it, it didn't sound like he was saying it in this way that he's like, I'm, she's, it was like hurt, right? Like, I felt his hurt in that, like. Yeah. That goes back to my, my original question. Like, is this toxic? Cause I know Paige came out and she was like, I'm so sick of boy moms that they always come out and some of Some of them were harsh on, like, Patricia's comments about her being mean, like, I get it, I get it. And look, Patricia needs some work, like, Patricia needs to sit back and look at her own son and be able to reflect on, like, where did I contribute to that mess? Like, she needs to watch that episode where he speaks to Molly about the cupcake and sit him down and, like, pull his ear and slap him across the face or something, right? Like, she needs to, like, fully recognize she created a monster a little bit. Yeah, I don't think she has any room to talk, unfortunately. Um, but also- I had a moment the other day at the playground, Where this little girl was like, playing with my son. It's like one of his like best friends. they were racing and she kept beating him and he came over crying and he was like. I don't want to play anymore because she keeps beating me and my brain. I was like, oh, I think I'd said something like. Can't you just let him win once? And one of the other moms was like, Sam, that's not like a good thing. And I was like, you're so right. Like, I'm having this moment of empathy with my son and it's making me misalign with like, no, this little girl can beat him as many times and he needs to just like deal with Yeah, and just keep trying, kid. Right, like, I wish I would have handled it differently and like, you know, then we did have a talk about like, you know, like, keep practicing and maybe you'll win next time. Like, that's, that's it. That is all it is. and we just watched the, even though I kind of was like, I don't know if I can get through this, but it was really good. The Netflix adolescence, which is all about like. Oh, I can't watch it. I don't know if I can. I want you to watch it because it's really good. But I also was like, I can't handle this. I'm having a son. But it actually was really interesting. And yeah, I mean, I think we talk a lot about Women in this society. And this is like a changing conversation. And honestly, it's like we do talk a lot about women and the equality. And all those things are really important. I fought for them my whole life. And like someone just said to me, you're having a son because God needs you to like. Like, I'm sorry, our feminist boy moms were carrying the world. It's work, it's work, it's work to, like, hold empathy and still hold, like, I need you to be empathic too. Like I'm empathic towards you and now I need you to be empathic to like a world that like teaches you not to be empathic towards it. so yeah, there is a bit of like this toxic femininity of like these men Should let their women be mean to them. They should have no emotion. When they break up, they should just get over it and they should defend them and they should. What world is this realistic? And there's some comments where I'm like, do these women don't date men? I don't know. But also like, men I think are, and this kind of plays out in the adolescent show too, is like, They are taught that they're supposed to be less emotional but they're actually from a very young age more emotional and therefore like when they're not processing those emotions it results in like a very strong Reaction of anger, right? Because it's not a myriad of emotions that they should be expressing every day. It's like one balled up. Big emotion that happens and obviously spoiler alert in adolescence it's tragic consequences, but I kind of feel like with women, are we sort of becoming that too? Like, I mean, like, I feel like... Well, there is a lack of empathy in the Bravo world, it feels like, towards a lot of the men and, like... Are they partially responsible for that? Yes. But, like, even with, like, someone like Carl, who I feel like is someone who... Clearly still has a lot more work to do, but is doing a lot of work to, and Craig too, like, to change and try to be a better person. There's, like, zero room for them not to, like, get it right 100% of the time. And on the reverse, for Paige, I feel like they're like, everything she's doing is perfect. Like, she's amazing. She's the best. And I'm like, yeah, but at the same time, I'm kind of like, she's definitely going through it. Like, I don't think that she's okay in this breakup. No, yeah. And I think that's OK. I think I think some of the mixed messages she gave to Craig is evidence of that. Whether they happened or not, I don't know, because he is a storyteller and a lawyer. Well, and it's valid to give mixed messages again as you're like as she's going through like turning going through those early 30s are such a transitional time that it like makes sense that like. One month you want something and the next month you want something else and, like, there's a place to just, like, acknowledge that. Like, I gave him a lot of really mixed messages and that, like, I wish I would have done that differently and, I did the best I could where I was at in my life and I'm still learning and growing and, like, there is, like, a righteousness in Paige that, like, Feels like there's no space. Like, it feels like Craig has more room to acknowledge. Like, he admits he was in denial and that that was probably, like... Not great and added to things and, you know, is there still a righteousness in him too? Yes. I think, like, as a reality star, you're just gonna, like, hold some righteousness because you do want to control, like, everyone wants to, like, control their narrative to some extent. Definitely. And I mean, they're both like they're being on a reality. It makes you have a big head. Let's just be clear. So I, I never felt like Craig was innocent in this at all. I think something I see in both page and Lindsay is this like rush to. Move on and present, you know, like Paige and Hannah going to that like basketball game and her being like, I'm out, I'm hot, I'm single. Like even that first Giggly Squad episode, she's like, I love like being a single woman in the city. It's like, girl, you broke up with him two weeks ago. You were together three years. Like, give yourself a moment. Like, just give yourself a moment to be a hot fucking mess. I remember when I broke up with guys, too. I was like, I'm gonna fucking... And you know, that's part of the process. But like, you also have to be sad. So I like relate to everything she's going through. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't think like everything she's doing is perfect. And like, The best and like, how should women and like Lindsay too, I think. Well, I really like what you said about vulnerability. And I think that that speaks to Lindsay too, right? Like there's something that they both are. Are really good PR people that like don't let the vulnerability through. Yeah, and I mean, Lindsay, like, rushing to have this baby, like, I, you know, she's, she, it seems I've really calmed her down and she seems really happy. I have no ill will. But it was rushed. Like, let's be clear. It was rushed. And you see in this most recent scenes and like even her clapping back at Carl a little bit, it's like you're still not 100% healed and that's like okay, it's okay that you took a. It's normal. Yeah, you took a different route than Carl. But I feel like, again, the Bravo verse is very much like Lindsay won the breakup because she had a baby with a hot guy right after. And it's like, but. Is there winning of a breakup? Like, I think winning of a breakup is you learned and you have a better relationship moving forward. And to be fair, we don't really know because we don't see Lindsay's boyfriend on the show. And if I don't see Paige's next boyfriend on the show, I'm gonna be mad. Okay, so final questions. We obviously still have a lot more of this breakup to come on Summer House. Because it's never ending. but do we think that this intermingling of like Bravo liberties Especially maybe cross franchises, which makes it more difficult production wise. Do we think that's good for reality TV or not? I want to say yes. Yeah, I want to see- I want hookups at BravoCon. Yeah, and we- like, it's fun to- I think it's actually more fun when it's across franchises, because it's like- We do kind of get to see it play out from two different worlds and like that is like what happens when two people come together they come together from different worlds and they're trying to figure out how those worlds fit together if they fit together and like. Something about like Maddie and Joe like it's almost a little too easy because they kind of like are coming from very similar places. Mm hmm. Um, and maybe it's because, like, that show is also very new and so, um, there's, like, less context to, like, throw into all of it. Yeah, we never got to see Joe and Danielle date. That would have been interesting. That would have been interesting. But that was kind of fun even like though we didn't see any of it. It was fun to like watch and then for it to like blow up because like come on that was like epic. Very epic. I think so too. I don't know if we'll have another opportunity. That's why RIP like Craig and Paige really brought it for us. Yeah, it's hard to think because like with the valley like everyone is married. Yeah, um, there's a lot of single people. It's just, I think the whole dynamic of him living in Charleston and her living in New York was insane. Right. And that's really what happens because there's not that many shows that are like, here's two different shows that are based out of New York or here's two different shows that are based out of like this one place. Yeah. I guess we did get, um, Giselle and Jason. That was weird. We didn't get to see Ashley and Luke. Which I was more interested in. Definitely. Just to like watch them make out because they're both really good looking people. I also am curious on what the future of Summer House is. Because it's starting to become... Aged, I think. Right, right, right. And does, like, Paige even make sense to continue to, like, Go to this, like, beach house where she's not, like, if she's not going to bring her partners, like, I think with Craig she had to because he was a Bravo star, like, but again, like, in the past with, Perry, she didn't bring him, I would think like her being single, she should stay on Summer House because she can bring more. But then I look at Sierra and I'm like. But look at her history. She hasn't really when she was single. I know. And look at Sierra. She's bringing nothing. And I'm sorry. Like, I know this is not topic, but like. I kind of was a little bit on west side last episode. Like her being like, he used me. I'm again, it's a little bit toxic femininity. I'm like, what is happening here? Like, You guys dated. It didn't work out. Like, did Wes do too much post the breakup? Because he was, like, clearly trying to, like... Milk his, like, five minutes of fame and, like, get some sort of story or narrative going out. Like, I think he did do too much. Do I think that mean he used her? Like, it does feel extreme. Yeah. Like, did he get with her originally that first, you know, couple episodes of Summer House when they got together just for clout? Like, I never felt that way. It didn't feel that. I mean, it's possible. Because if anything, he said on the reunion, I was afraid of being too associated with Sierra. Right. It makes sense she feels that way, but it also feels, with Sierra, I think she also, like, really does make bad choices with men, and instead of, like, reflecting on, like, Why is it that I keep choosing these emotionally stunted and unavailable men? It's sort of like, well, they're the problem. And it's like, yeah, they're the problem. But like, You are also the problem like you continue to make choices about men that put you in these positions where you feel used. And then her solution for that is like, I'm not dating men on Bravo anymore. And it's like, so you're just going to pick these bad men off camera and we're not going to get to at least be entertained. Right. Or you get a chance to like kind of look back and reflect on it. Well, okay. Yeah. I mean, Wes is definitely still an upgrade from how Austin treated her. And look, Sierra is gorgeous. I think she's really smart. I think she has so much to offer. Um, you know, she does talk in earlier episodes about issues like her dad kind of like leaving and abandoning her and like starting another like they're being like Some wounds there for her to work through that clearly are part of, like, potentially why she chooses men who she feels mistreated by. But I don't know, Sierra, baby girl, you gotta, you gotta bring more to the show to like have us, to have me be on your side. Yeah, and that's what I'm, that's my fear in sort of these strong, quote unquote, independent women. Well, I support and I love and like it's great and live your best way. It's not great reality TV. That's what I'm saying. It's not great reality TV and like I question like Lindsay now being on the show without Turner and like It stunts the show, you know. I have to say Lexi seems like a hot mess, but I do really like her being, and it seems like this is going to go totally downhill, the whole Jessie situation, but I liked her being... I would rather dive head first and get burned than regret what could have happened. When she said that line, whatever it was, which I'm probably misquoting, I was like, this bitch was me. She had you hook line and sing her. She was me. I was like, I don't care if I don't like her. I don't care if I don't like her. She is a reality. Well, and it's like she's about to show us everything. Yeah, and that's really what you need. And I think with Sierra, what always bugged me is she's very protective of herself. And I'm like, then don't go on reality TV. You're hot as hell. Go be a model. Go be hot as hell. Yeah. Like, you don't need this, really. Yeah, maybe she should go on, like, Love Island. Oh, my God. She would never. This is what I'm saying. Like, I don't know. But then she can make all the bad choices and, like, change them very quickly. So, but this is what I'm saying is that we need couples on Bravo and people need to stop being so team this, team that. We need to be team mess. Team Mess. We're Team Mess here. Hashtag unpopular opinions. Hashtag. Team mess. Team mess. the one thing we are sure of is that, like, we're excited to see the rest of the season of Summer House play out. Especially because we'd like to thank our sponsor, Loverboy, and or what? And or Spritz? What is that Spritz even called? Who would like to be our sponsor? Putting it out there for you each. Every episode I'm gonna say this at the end until someone reaches out and says here is some free cans of Loverboy. I guess the more interesting question is sort of like what happens with Summer House and maybe what happens with Southern Charm, like has Southern Charm outaged itself? Which they got crazy ratings this season. Apparently Craig is dating this girl Natalie Buffett. I don't know who that is. I saw she looked gorgeous and she looked like who I thought he might date after, which is some like Blonde southern girl. Yeah, I guess she lives in Dallas. I will say he needs and wants someone who can travel with him and whatever. And that does not necessarily mean she I think he will still go for a very smart, independent woman. But I think he likes. That's his pattern, right? Like, Naomi was a smart, independent woman, Paige. Like, I think that is what he's attracted to. Yeah, but I think. But he needs a smart, independent woman who, like, wants the same things that he wants. And we'll travel with him. Or more similar. Yeah. And we'll go places with him and do things and be not a shadow, but like do shit with him. Yeah. And Paige, I think I would love to see her just like continue to be single and like live her best life. I don't know about this guy that she's dating. I don't think it's that serious. I don't either. Isn't he like an influencer's brother or something? I don't know. He looks like a budget Jersey Shore kind of guy to me. And like, I feel like she's like, there's something about her being like, I need like to date someone Italian just to like go back to my roots and like, see what that feels like for a minute. Like, I don't know. There's something about that. Does Andrea have a friend for her? Oh my god. Oh, that's what she, like a real Italian. I was thinking Italian-American, but yeah, like a real Italian. Yeah, she does need an Italian-American. Maybe she should go on Real Housewives of New Jersey. She could be part of the reboot there, yeah. And maybe Amanda moves to New Jersey. Ooh, that's chaotic. Do you think Craig and Paige will get married at BravoCon? Um. Like, together or separate? Like, they could have separate weddings at BravoCon? Like, they'll get back together. No. But I like this idea of them like each getting married at BravoCon in different time zones or different times. Different wedding chapels. And Lindsay will get married to Turner too. Definitely not, but. I think Lindsay and Carl are gonna get back together. I could see it. I could see it now. See? Starting to feel that. Though, I don't know. Actually, I think he's very relieved to not be that baby's daddy. Yeah, he does seem that way. He does still seem like a hot mess, but he's got lemur energy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know who we're going to tackle next, but I'm glad we got that off our chest because it was really sitting hard. Yeah. Thanks for processing that with, with me and with us. Send in your comments and fight with us. Or agree with us, you know. We're cool with that too. Well, thanks all for listening.