Ciara Miller from Summer House

This week, we’re diving into the enigma that is Summer House’s Ciara Miller—gorgeous, grounded, and somehow always caught in the middle of a love triangle. Why does she keep falling for the same type of guy? We unpack Ciara’s romantic patterns, modern dating chaos, and how shifting gender roles are shaking up the Summer House dynamic. From heartbreak to hookup culture, it’s time to get real. Buckle up—this episode might just surprise you.

Chapters

• 4:33 Introducing the subject
• 11:30 Ciara's background/conflict with her Dad
• 14:51 Ciara and Luke
• 22:34 Ciara and Austen
• 34:31 Ciara and West
• 37:10 Ciara's reaction to Paige and Craig's relationship
• 44:42 Did West use Ciara?
• 58:28 Ciara and Carl?
• 1:01:21 Final Questions

Transcript

Jenny, the resident, reality show producer and Sam, the resident, therapist here. We are, diving into Summer House again. we're doing Sierra Miller She's been on four seasons now, I want to say. But also Winter House and her name has been dropped a couple times on Southern Charm. Oh, yes. Um, so what how I came up with this idea or we kind of started batting this idea around, it was actually not necessarily about Sierra first. I was watching the most recent episode of Summer House, um, or maybe it was the episode before that, but, um, the Lexi-Jesse- This situation is so messy, and I have to say, we are not excusing any of those fuckboys, Wes. From the top, we want everyone to understand that we see Jesse West and pretty much everyone on... summer house i'll say as like man children right like they're all man children navigating the world although i'm very impressed with carl's like handling of the last recent episode he might be transitioning to adulthood Slowly, very slowly. He's working on it. You can see him doing some work and we can talk about that too maybe at the end a little like what we're thinking about that whole thing with him and Lindsay and Lindsay just like clearly being wrong and. And just like slight flirtation with Sierra, which is interesting. It comes back around because he was. I have some things to say about that. Oh, okay. I'm ready for that. So anyways, but so yeah, Jesse, all I can think of his motivation is that he just wants to like ruin his any good reputation he had and like. It's just like, that's the only thing I can rationalize. But I think I was telling you, Sam, that I was like, I don't really find diving into them that interesting because Like, I think Jesse's motivations are very selfish and very But this is like every guy in New York City, right? Like anyone I know, like as someone who lives and most of my friends are in New York City for the most part. But anyone I know who's single right now in New York City and doing this like dating game, it's like this is men. They tell you all the things they want that you want to hear. Get you into bed and then they're sort of like into their cycle of like, okay, lost interest. Well, and that's why I find it really interesting how women navigate this And something I noticed that Lexi was doing, which is something that Sierra did last season Is that, you know, Lexi's like, I don't want to have sex until we're official. Meanwhile, demanding some sort of like verbal commitment to exclusivity or commitment like. As if that translate into anything more than I will say what you need me to say to do, to get the thing that I want, the thing that I need. Yeah, and I find it really interesting because I know Sierra also had this like boundary with Wes and you know, like there's obviously different layers to this. I think if you're sleeping with someone for safety or You know, security reasons, whatever. Um, to say like, if we're sleeping together, you're not sleeping with anyone else. That's fine, right? That's just, that's just respect. You know, you've taken your STD test. We use a condom like this might be on that roster of just like respect. Don't sleep with ten girls without condoms and me like that. women should be able to have those conversations and should have those conversations. But I feel like that's different than What I feel like in some ways Sierra and Lexi are kind of saying is like, well, it's more of a commitment. I need a commitment from you in order to You know, have sex with you. And Sierra with Wes was like even more explicit that she was like, You know, I get emotionally attached when I have sex. And so that's why I didn't want to do it with you until we were more serious, which to me, I respect. Like, if that is the case, let's be clear. I was never that person. I have high body count hair. I don't care. Like, I kind of understand where Wes and Jesse are coming from in some ways being like, you want to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but we haven't even had sex. For me, I wouldn't want to make that commitment unless I knew there was sexual chemistry there. This is not guy-girl thing. This is just me, but like, I understand the women who are like, I will get emotionally attached so I don't want to. I like respect that a lot too. So to me like I think everybody has their own Choices and they make their own choices in life and what they feel comfortable with. And that's like totally acceptable. But I think with. Sierra, it wasn't just that. To me, I also felt like it was this bargaining thing where it was like, okay, you're gonna give me a little bit more Of a committed relationship and then I'll have sex with you and I think also that came out a lot in the reunion too where she talked about like you got what you wanted like sex from me and then kind of dipped out. And I think Jordan from Summer House Martha's Vineyard also talked about how like, you know, she's like hot Playboy model. So like, again, something I can't relate to because I've never been a supermodel. It's never been that beautiful. You're gorgeous, Jenny, but I have to agree. But you know, like she was saying she kind of withheld sex or was doing the celibate thing because guys will just want to sort of conquer her. But it's funny because I think other- I know, like, you know, non-supermodel girls who go through this whole struggle too where they kind of play this bargaining game with sex. And I just think it was like a really interesting- Topic to just jump into because I'm like does that really serve these women because like even with Lexi, you know, she's like telling him here's my boundaries. I want to be exclusive. I want to be In a relationship, I want you to take this seriously. And but at the same time, I can see he's like messaging girls on Instagram or like liking their photos. And to me, I'm like, that's a huge red flag. And if you don't like that or you're not cool with that. You can't really tell a guy, especially when you've only been dating him for two weeks, like, not to do that. Like, you kind of have to accept the guy from where he's at and take that for what it is, which is a freaking red flag. And whether or not you tell him these are the things I require from him, you don't know him like you've only known him for a month and he's been doing this behavior for much longer than that. So you putting these like stipulations on him is really not going to change. You should be taking his actions at face value and saying, okay, He's doing these things. How do I feel about that? And how do I react to it? Rather than these are the things he's doing. So I'm going to make these rules for him. And he's going to, he's, he's so in love with me. He's going to change. Right, that's, that's the core of it for me when you were kind of saying it, the thing that came up for me was this idea of, like, why are you having to, like, create all these rules and stipulations? Like, if There's something you clearly know about your own picker and your own, like, of picking men that, like, I can't trust them to commit and provide me exclusivity. So now I need to set up all these, like, barriers to sex to try to, like, make that happen. And yet, like, I'm not... Believing like what's in front of me like I there's no way Lexi has not seen the show. There's no way that like Sierra had never seen Southern charm and didn't know anything about art. I guess with Wes, that was a little, like, more. But he was giving her a lot of information that was saying, like, I'm not someone who likes to commit and provide exclusivity. And so saying, well, I'm going to create that as, like, the barrier to get to sex. It's like... If you have to set that up, maybe that isn't the right relationship to begin with because, like, with the right relationship, you can just say I want exclusivity. I don't need to set up all these, like, rules and barriers and, like, Rewards if you give me exclusivity because they'll just want to give it. I think with Sierra and Wes, it's like. her wanting to feel safe and emotionally safe and all of that is really important. But I think you're right. Like, he was giving her a lot of signs that should have told her, that's not there regardless of Exclusivity or rules or boundaries and. A lot of that happened off camera, obviously, after, like, the season wrapped. But even during, like, their dates and during different, like, things between them, discussions, he keeps saying, I... Don't, I'm not that into commitment. I think at some point he calls relationships handcuffs. he is very openly saying, commitment scares me. Like, I'm not, like, I don't know if I can handle that. And she's continuing to be like... Yes, and like, yes, and we can get there. We can get there. I guess the main time he had told her that is on this horse date. And, her reaction at the reunion was like, I gave him an out after that date. I said, if you don't want to do this, no. But to me, I'm like, Sierra, why didn't you take the out? Yeah. Why didn't you say this makes me feel uncomfortable? Right. Doesn't make me feel safe. It doesn't make me feel like I'm going to be secure in the things that I need and want. And so, like, maybe we need to take some steps back. And take that for the sign that it is. So, yeah, I mean, let's get into her background because I think she's one of those people that I think she's almost spelled out. Why her pattern is. Right. She gave us her attachment issues like, like episode three that she was on or whatever. I can't remember how many episodes it was. But like in that first season, she sits down with Amanda and Paige and has this really uncomfortable conversation about her dad because she says, I miss my dog. And they misinterpret her saying dog as dad. I think it was Pat. Cat, whatever, animal. She's, she's talking about a pet and they misinterpret it thinking she said dad I think both because both of them I think are also like, very tight knit with their family and so in their minds that it kind of like almost makes sense. And then she goes into the story about how when she was younger her parents divorced her dad met a new partner wanted to get married to her. Dad, um, asked if Sierra and her sister liked the new partner and they said, no, dad, kind of like, no. Married her anyway, disinvited them to the wedding. You know, we're obviously just getting her side of it. Um, but she talks about how she was like a really big daddy's girl and that this was like a huge wound for her, for her dad to kind of like what she felt was like cut her off. And choosing his wife over her and her sister or And a big abandonment issue right there and saying that she really needed her dad and he wasn't there for her and she admits that Like, she's replayed this pattern in relationships and at this point when she joined the show, I think she said she was, what, 24? She was very young. She was one of the younger people on the show. Yeah, she came in at like twenty-four and she's like, yeah, I've been to therapy to really work on this and like not repeat it again. which is interesting because she says that because then, you know, obviously we've seen her now for years on, um, reality TV. Well, it's interesting because she comes in with Luke and She does, it does almost feel like she's getting ready to not replay that pattern because she does, he confesses feelings for her. She sees how he treats Hannah and is like, no, thank you, ma'am. Like, we're not gonna do this. And we're like, oh, this person's got good boundaries. She stands up for herself. She's not gonna, like, fall into this, like, kind of pattern of... Male attention and relationship and then we go to Winter House and we have Austin. Well, and just to hit on the Luke thing again, like, We do see her handling the Luke and Hannah love triangle really well, which is interesting because when she comes in, she's like, I'm not really a girl's girl. I get along with boys, but not usually girls and it's Which is interesting because it's opposite it feels like, right? Like, This feels like Lindsay saying she's a girl's girl and it's like no you're really not like we've lots of evidence of you not being a girl's girl but I feel like Sierra since we've met her comes off as a girl's girl. Yeah, so I was surprised to see that. And then she talks about that she met Luke two years earlier. So she would have been twenty like twenty-two like really young. Baby. And then her brain's not even fully developed. Right. But she and she's much chiller that first season, too, I will say. But she met him at a modeling situation and then he invited her to Minnesota to like meet his parents. I don't know why all these men, let's just be clear, like are obsessed with people meeting their parents. This is like a new generation thing. Um, but are they Gen Z? I don't know. Luke might be millennial. Yeah, but like, also it's- West is definitely Gen Z. Also, like, I guess in general, people or definitely women should take this with a grain of salt because everyone's introducing because I remember Craig said to Paige before they were even officially together, I want you to come to Delaware and like. Meet my parents. I still barely want my husband to meet my family. So maybe it's just foreign to us. I know. Um, but I guess like at the same time, like the younger generation are like friends with their parents. So like, I do, I wouldn't take that as seriously as like Some of these people are. But, so she went to Minnesota. They did end up hooking up, she said. And then he went back to New York and wasn't over his ex, which was the same thing Hannah was getting from Luke. And so... He ghosted her, essentially. And then the prior summer when he was playing with Hannah's head, too, he was texting, calling her, and they had showed a little bit of the... You know, phone call with Sarah that I guess we had seen the prior season, but we didn't know who he was talking to. Right. But we learned it's Sarah. Ooh, I don't remember that. That's so interesting. Yeah. I wish I would have rewatched that. yeah, i mean that pandemic season of summer house i know people like turned on hannah that season but that's it was dark i mean that was a dark season And maybe it's just because they were, like, really, like, it felt like Big Brother or whatever. Like, they were stuck in that. Like, I don't know. I didn't love that vibe of, like, feeling like they're all stuck in this house gonna go stir crazy together. Really? I loved it. I think they should do it again, honestly. Also, a first season of Summer House Martha's Vineyard kind of felt like that too. Yes, Martha's Vineyard does give that kind of vibe. Well, it's interesting because I feel like Sierra came in, she pretty quickly, and I think she's, like, for being so young, she's really intuitive. Like, it seemed like she clocked, oh, I am here. to create this, like, triangulation tension between Hannah, Luke, and me. And, like, I'm not gonna play into that. Like, she immediately was like, No, no, no. And I think she must recognize that a little from her own history, that feeling of triangulation between her, her dad and her stepmom, and immediately felt like, like, The best role I can play is just to make friends with the girls and I wonder if that like switched her the dynamic in her head of like oh look at how much more rewarding it is for me when I get. Attention, love, and support from women versus like validation from men, which is like, I don't know. Now that I think of that, I'm like, maybe that's a really like helpful thing that Summer House did for her. Well, and I think it's interesting with Luke, I mean, if we take Hannah out of it, the fact that he brought her to Minnesota and introduced her to the parents, apparently she's like the girl everyone wants to introduce to the parents. Um, but. I mean, she's gorgeous and smart and, like, used to be a nurse. Like, she is, like. Why wouldn't you? I feel like she's a parent and, like, dream, like. A hundred percent. but like the fact that he ghosted her and then kind of came back around, she was very open to getting back together with him. Like that's how she came into the show. Um, it was only when the Hannah stuff went off the rails that she turned on him and didn't want to. But they never really addressed that as much, which I thought was really interesting. that like he really did like ghost her and maybe she was not as invested as she was like say with West. and with Wes, she's just coming off of that Austin thing, so I think there's a lot more at stake for her than that. This Luke stuff where, like, she's just at the beginning of becoming a reality star. She doesn't have all the pressure from the audience at that point and all the pressure from, like, The world that she has going into, like, all the stuff with, like, Austin and then West. Yeah. And one of the things that she sets this boundary with Luke at some point and he he was kind of doing this. I mean, yeah, like I said, we're not defending any of the men's actions here and we're not really getting into them because it would just be us raging. But like Luke does do this thing, especially like day one in the house where he's texting Hannah and texting Sierra both from bed like every night and then texting both in the morning. Like, so then at some point, Sierra says I couldn't even keep that up for myself. You know? I would barely text back my friends. And, and Luke did this thing. It's kind of impressive, Luke. Oh my god, yeah. Luke did this thing to Hannah, and let's just be clear, he did this, where he emotionally used her. He used her to be his filling girlfriend. Spill all his feelings and, like, gave her essentially nothing. Like, that's what I always felt about Luke. Like, he was a emotional vampire. That's true, but I also feel like Hannah played into that a little. Oh, 100%. Like, if you look back to that first season Luke came before Sierra... Like there's so much like playing that goes on between the two of them of like making each other jealous and trying, right? Like she brings these guys to the party intentionally to make Luke jealous and show that he wants her and So she kind of had a little role in that, too. She's got an instigator in her. Oh, yeah. I mean, and she was talking to Des at the same time. It's not like Sierra who feels like this, like, innocent flower, right? Like, Sierra just feels like... Like, she really doesn't play into any of that. And so when men treat her in this way, it's just like, oh, baby. So she kind of tries to set this boundary with Luke like, you can't text me after this time. Which just like, to me, felt hilarious. I remember watching it the first time because I was like, you guys are trapped in a home together. Like, this isn't even one of those seasons where it's like they go to the bar, they do, like, they were trapped in that house. Like, what does it matter? If he texts you, he can walk into your room at midnight if you wanted to, like literally. And so I felt it was sort of like a weird forced boundary on her part. But like, in fairness, he was kind of playing this like texting game. But I thought it was interesting to clock it because we see Sierra start to make more of these boundaries and also I wonder how much of that the show played into it because I felt like watching her come in so innocent and like really expressing herself like I kind of want to get back with Luke and like I'm interested in him and like You know, sharing so much about her dad from the opening. Like, I've seen as the years go by her be more closed off and more boundaried. And as we get into West. You know, the show really became a huge topic of like why their relationship didn't work. and she's even said like, I would never date a Bravo, another Bravo guy. And like, I'm, I think some of her boundaries are also related to like. She doesn't want to feel disrespected or look dumb on TV, which is making her more closed off in some ways. Yeah, but it almost also speaks to a part of her that doesn't trust herself, right? Like, I don't want to date another Bravo Liberty because I've had a lot of bad experiences with them. And also I don't trust myself if I met one that I liked that he would be a good guy because that's not my pattern of like... Picking guys who are loyal to me and who show up in a certain way for me and my guess is that doesn't just exist in like what we see of her dating life that that likely exists like in all of her life. Definitely. And I think with Luke, I, I felt like she handled it quite well. And sometimes things just don't work out like, and you know, we'll get into this with West a little bit more, but jumping into the Austin winter house. Somehow, once again, Sierra finds herself in a love triangle with Lindsay from the start. Lindsay handles it quite surprisingly well in that season. It makes me wonder now that we're saying it, if Lindsay reminds her of her, dad's wife. Because in this one she chooses, right? Like she chooses Austin. And I think a lot of people, I saw some Instagram that like really made me think about this differently. But that like the everyone was mad at Lindsay for kissing Austin at her birthday party like late after him and Sierra dated. But like no one considers that Lindsay came into Winterhouse totally. I told Sierra and kind of told everyone like I have feelings for Austin and Sierra kind of went after him anyway. I didn't, like, think about that. Like, oh, yeah, like, Lindsay was wounded by this too, right? Like, she made it she did say, I'm, like, having these feelings and going after this guy. And, like, yeah, Austin said, like, no, I'm not interested. Like, no – And so he's technically free and clear for Sierra to go after, but there's still this like, she, you know, she's, there's some consciousness of getting into a triangulation here. Well, and Lindsay admits like we had sex, right? And that was kind of like a thing Craig didn't know about and it finally like gets revealed. So again, like we have Sierra who takes, you know, having sex with someone as being, you know, a big deal. And cause that was kind of an issue with Hannah too. Oh, my gosh, this is really fucked up, actually. Luke told Sierra basically an outline of his relationship with Hannah, which was really like. Kind of mean and fucked up. But one of the things he said was like, I am so glad I never had sex with her because I knew she'd become too attached. And, you know, it's just so interesting because like, you know, obviously, Sarah's admitted that she can be like that. And she obviously wasn't really like that with Luke, let's be honest. But with Austin, Lindsay did have sex with him and Technically, they had this more serious relationship. Um, I think Lindsay was wounded, but I think also Lindsay like. No, Lindsay is more vindictive. I don't think that Sierra was coming from a vindictive, like, I don't think she was going after Austin to piss Lindsay off. I think she was really attracted and like... You know, Austin comes off as a very charismatic person. So it didn't feel malicious in the same way that Lindsay kissing Austin at that party felt really malicious. That was malicious. But again, I just think there is something to name that she did consciously get into some triangulation here, which I think doesn't get, like, named enough. That, like, she did have a bigger role here in not totally... Like, being aware that, like, that's not girl code to, like, go, like, at least in my version of girl code and I guess that's only one version of it. Like, if your friend says she just, like, hooked up with someone, like. I probably wouldn't want to go hook up with them or like that would automatically like kind of turn me off from wanting to. Like, pursue that person? Yeah. But, I mean, Lindsay is a A-plus reality star. Let's just be clear. Like, she assessed the situation of Winterhouse and was like, It is not going to be entertaining for me in these three weeks or two weeks. They're there for such a short amount of time for me to be upset about Austin and chasing and making this love triangle. She was like, looked around and was like, Jason, okay, we going out. I respect it. I respect it so much. I respect it so much. This is why, again, she brings us great content. But I wonder if afterwards or whatever is when Lindsay really did have that moment of hurt and concocted this, you know, obviously more malicious situation that happened around her birthday, I think there's, it's really, what is most interesting about Sierra and Austin to me is that Sierra, again, like... Has these, like, what feel like very firm boundaries, at least like what she shows on the show. And then. Off camera, I think you mentioned this, she's kind of like not living by those boundaries, right? Because she talks about how like she continued to like hook up with him afterwards, even during that season when he comes on to. Summer house. She's, like, wanting him to be with her even though he's, again, like, kind of giving you every message that he's a Man child. Yeah, fuck boy, whatever. Muppet mouth. Exactly. There's plenty of evidence. No. Um, but yeah, I mean, going to that scenario that happened at Summer House. It was, I mean, some of the best television I've ever watched, to be honest, because it's just so fascinating. I mean, Austin shows up like a wrecking ball for Lindsay's birthday. Making it clear, I'm here for Lindsay. But then they go out the first night and he's kind of getting with Sierra and Lindsay hooks up with another guy. True manipulator gaslighter like that scene. It like sticks in my mind when he's in the kitchen with her. And he's just I can't remember what he's saying, but he just comes off so grimy where he's like, so what if I kill? Don't like you want to kiss me like he's like, playing with her emotions like in front of us in a way that feels like, oh, you are like, slime like this feels so gross to watch right now and I just like want to go in and like, protect her from you. And it's interesting because there is a gap of time between Winter House and Summer House and I don't remember if they ever explicitly said what the deal was other than that we're still kind of talking and it was casual. And Sierra didn't know where she stood. But what I felt was really sad to watch on her end was like, You know, as he's going around this party, making out with Lindsay, running around, everyone's wasted. Ciara is really pulling him aside and is like, well, how do you feel about me? Like, What, what are your thoughts on us? Like, there are different times, I believe, throughout, and I can't remember. Well, that's one of those scenes, I think, in the kitchen. She's asking. Yeah, exactly. And she's being, like, really slimy, like, really. Like, believe him. Believe what he's showing you. And I think they had a conversation outside that was almost similar to that, too. And it's almost, like, sad to watch her in this weird begging state of, like... Why don't you want to be with me? And it, it, I want to get into the West of it all because we get more from that relationship, but like. Even when we talked a little bit about that horror state, like why did you feel you needed to ask him after that? Like he did make himself pretty freaking clear. Um, and I feel like the same way with Austin, if I'm seeing him come just for Lindsay, Maybe I think at this point maybe she didn't see him kiss her. But he's blatantly being disrespectful. Yeah, and like, why are you even... It entertaining any of this and I think Sierra's watched herself on television. I think she's really smart and I think she knows that she looks dumb and that really hurts her. She's someone who has like almost too much self-awareness, right? Like I think she's highly critical of herself. And but I think her solution to that is like, OK, I'm just not going to show as much. But like, it's interesting because even after all of that, we learn in the reunion. and we heard, I guess, a little bit about this on Southern Charm, too, because I think Austin's starting to date Olivia at that point and then Sierra's in town and he ditches Olivia to go be with her. And, you know, we learned in the reunion that Sarah did in fact hook up with him again. and she kind of has to eat that at the reunion. Which I kind of feel bad it was even exposed. But to me, I'm like... Well, it's also like, to me, it's not that big of a deal. You're in your 20s. You're like... Like from my perspective of like being a messy when I was like a messy twenty something year old like you don't need to be embarrassed you don't need to feel that you did anything wrong it is completely normal. To go out there and make choices and then reflect on those choices and decide like, oh, like maybe I shouldn't have done that because he's like, I clearly see he's an asshole. But also to just be like, yeah, our sex was good or it was fun to hook up with him. Like, so I did it even if it wasn't, the smartest or best decision. And I think that pressure from the audience just, like, Seeing Austin be such a jerk to her, that audience, they're all like, oh, how is she so dumb to do it? It's like, well, you're also not considering this girl like what the time is like twenty-six twenty-seven like. She's still young. She's allowed to like, you know, make these types of decisions and just like be. And then I feel like because she gets that feedback, it makes her feel like, oh, no, I can't. Well, and I think she's, she's, she is trying to work out her pattern and we see this in like various ways. And I think a lot of it is unfair to just put on Sierra because at the end of the day, The guys she's pursuing are young and they're not in a state of like wanting to be committed or working on themselves or whatever. And at that age, that is what you're encountering a lot of the time, especially if you're talking about major cities. And you're, and you're throwing in like reality TV. Like, I think we've seen this from Lindsay and you know, it's just, it's interesting to even put that juxtaposition of how Lindsay handles things versus Sierra because Lindsay's like, just like puts the mess all out there. Yeah. And Sarah's so afraid of how that's gonna make her look. Whereas this really is none of her fault, and it became this whole thing between her and Lindsay and everyone's like, Austin is the villain here, you know? Right, right. Um, but she definitely is still playing out this role of like chasing her Dad, you know, I think she even said on this season she was like, Lindsay is over her engagement pregnant already and I'm still going over my parents divorce. So, she is, like, aware, um, but, like, I wonder how- Lindsay is playing at her own attachment issues with- Having this baby and being, potentially a single mom and there's definitely some, mommy wounds she's working through with this. which apparently i guess sierra quoted in some article said like you know lindsey gets too much flack because you know she does have these abandonment issues and i relate to that and which is really interesting because we've never really seen them be close But I do think they have like some parallels. it's interesting to kind of work through how she's trying to create these boundaries or change her direction of who she dates. And whether that's, you know, helping or repeating and how do you do that? let's get into West, West is the first relationship that doesn't feel like a triangle, like a very overt triangular. Yeah. Right? Like, she's finally kind of, like, there is something of, like, moving out of that triangle here and, like, it is, like, just her and him kind of working through. But then is there a triangle with Jesse? Because now we're. Well, now, but, like. At the time it didn't seem that way. so they meet, he's kind of like one of those like not that cute but he's funny character. Charming. He kind of looks like Robin Williams to me. Oh, I see that. Right. Totally see that. so yeah, they start dating. They're kind of making out whatever. I guess Jesse also was interested in her. Just to be said, Carl was interested in her when she walked in too and like she just ended up, you know, being in that situation with Luke. But, pretty early on in their relationship, Jesse, they're at this rooftop bar and Jesse's like, when are you gonna have sex with my friend? And she was like, probably never at this rate. I respected that. Yeah, Wes did admit at the reunion that he was sleeping with other girls. I think he told Paige he wasn't and that was a lie, which I think got clung. Kind of glossed over, even though he got really reamed in that reunion. He could have gotten more reamed because of that. Let's just be clear. Um, yeah. And I think with Wes, you know, he talks about this a lot in interviews, so I don't know how much of it he did actually say to Ciara, but like. Sierra is a full package like I guess what's really fascinating to me about Sierra is that she's so hot like she's Legitimately one of the most gorgeous people I've ever, like, seen in my life. And she's really smart. She's a nurse when she comes in. she is very self-aware. She's Very kind. She has a really good heart. And I'm like, if this girl cannot get a good guy, what hope is there for anyone else? But I think that I actually think all of those qualities make it harder for her. of course yeah i mean she's an a and she's going for like let's be honest west and his best day best jokes is like a c plus But I hate that why I don't I in fairness, even though this episode is like all about Sierra, I think it's very unfair to say like, OK, She should go for better guys. Like, why is she going for downgraded guys? Like, there aren't. I don't think that's it. So I have, I have a hot take of why I think she chooses the guy she chooses. Okay. This is sort of my it was my late night like thinking about this episode woke up at like 2am and had to write it in my phone so I didn't forget it. But I think that because of all of this attachment wounds with her dad and everything that happened there and then again everything with Austin I think reinforced a lot of that with for her. that I think that she chooses these guys who she unconsciously, doesn't have to be vulnerable with, like, what? There's a scene with her, Amanda, and Paige, and she's talking about how, like, West is, like, the fun guy. He's not the serious guy. And, like, we could say the same thing about Austin. Right. Like, he's kind of like the fun guy and not the serious guy. I don't know if Luke fits into that or not, because I feel like we actually don't know Luke's personality that well. But I think there's something for her about choosing people who, unconsciously she knows aren't going to take her to a very vulnerable place. Right. But like those guys tend to like not right they just want to have fun they're not in right they're not going to offer you the commitment and the exclusivity and the loyalty and like they're not going to meet someone like you're like Sierra. Who's like actually is like a deep sensitive like enriched like all of those qualities you just said like actually does need to be in touch with her vulnerability when she's meeting a partner and this is my hot take with Carl because I know. In a couple episodes, we see like, um, I don't, they haven't played the episode yet, but you see a preview where Carl kind of like confesses his feelings, like he's like, oh, I have feelings for you, Sierra, or like he's like, I can't remember exactly what it is in the preview, but he says he likes her. And I get the sense she's going to immediately reject him because I think Carl is in a place to be vulnerable with somebody and to like go to that level and I think part of what like makes her unattracted to Carl or to men like that. Is that like fear of getting really vulnerable with somebody. I also think that is why she has such heat for Craig not supporting page around this like. And again, Craig is not, his reaction to Paige's tour is not good. But I think his reaction is rooted in his vulnerability and his insecurity and for Sierra it's like that's an ick like as soon as a man is like really in like a sensitive vulnerable place I think there's like a I don't want to be around that. And you know, I'm pulling a lot of hypotheses and straws that I think that's related to if I let myself like give in to male vulnerability, then I have to like Get into my dad's vulnerability and what it was for him to like have this woman that he really loved and have his daughters not like her and have to like make this choice between his own happiness and how that might affect his children and have some happiness. And I'm not saying her dad was right or wrong I don't we don't we have a very surface understanding of it but like the empathy for how hard that decision what it must have been for him. Which kind of makes me think of, like, Tamra Judge and that decision between being on reality TV and, like, her daughter and, like. I don't know how honest her, like, Sierra's dad was about, like, I love this person. I need to be with this person. I still want relationships with you. Can we, like, figure out a way to work? Like, I don't, we don't get enough information to know exactly exactly. Why she feels like he chose his wife over her and her sister, um. Just that they got married and didn't invite her to the wedding and like I imagine there was much more steps that happened that like we said we didn't like her and got disinvited. But I think there's a part of her that, like, when a man is sensitive and vulnerable and in a, like, in that more emotional place. I wonder if it makes her feel like I don't want to go there because I can't see men in that way because then I'll have to see my dad in that way and then I'll have to like open myself up to the duality that both He hurt me and like me, you know, my position towards his wife also hurts him and like that that both of those things can be true. I don't know. That's. My late night insomnia hot take on her relationship to vulnerability and why she chooses the men that she chooses. I totally... Understand and totally relate because I have a similar situation of my dad got married to someone I was not invited to the wedding. So I understood like. Sarah explaining that situation so well, but I think you're right. Like in real healing, it's like when you're an adult and you go through these things, you can have a little bit more sympathy towards your parents. Because like at the same time, you're like, okay, well, they should have like with Sierra's situation, her dad should have chosen his kids. Like if that meant putting off your wedding for a year or two, like you should have made sure your daughters were cool with it. But. As we know, men, you know, men can be lonely and weak and needy. Also, like, what we know is that, like, her dad moved away. She stayed with her mom. Like, that they stayed close, but, like... I don't know, divorces are messy. We don't, we don't really know enough about what happens. I don't think we ever will. And I don't know that Sierra ever, like, willfully let herself see the- Or I think she will with some work and as she grows but like I think that's part of the work of undoing this pattern is looking at like what really happened here with me my dad and his wife like. What does all this mean not just from like my wounded perspective but from this like bigger perspective of like my dad is a human who has needs who like. Deserves to be happy and like if this woman makes him happy like what does that mean if I don't like her like and her not liking her we don't know was this woman abusive to Sierra was this woman just mean to her was it just that like. Sierra didn't, you know, wasn't ready to see her dad with another woman that wasn't her mom like there's so many things that can go on there. And forgiving her dad like finding and that forgiveness can still involve boundaries. But like, you know, there was something this season that came up that also really triggered me into wanting to do this episode was Wes was like, really hurt when she was like, he used me. And I wanted to dissect that and also, you know, the conversation in the reunion is a lot about the show and how the show is affecting them and and i think there's an aspect because it came up a lot during the season of sierra being like austin made me look stupid you can't do the same thing and wes was like i saw how austin made her feel stupid and i don't ever want to be like And then obviously when the relationship broke down, he ended up being like Austin and got reamed on that reunion. Mm-hmm. Let's say fair, fair, like rightfully. Right. He's his own enemy there. Yeah. But like at the same time, like, you know, the whole conversation, the reunion being like the show and blah, blah, blah. And then he does this New York Times article. And I had to read it again this morning. Oh, I haven't read it at all, I He basically says, that he shouldn't have blamed it all on the show or the effects of the show. He was like, honestly, we dated and it just wasn't a fit. And I should have just said that because it would have been more accurate and it wouldn't have been all about the show or whatever. And like in the reunion, Sierra and Gabby both kind of call them out there. You're like, you're making this a lot about the show. And I think you just didn't want to whatever commitment or whatever. Which I think he's just not in the place. Like, he talks about getting a new job and that Sierra's a ten and he's a five. Like, she's got an amazing career. He had no career. Like, he was doing nothing that season. And, you know, I think all those things factored into it, but like he kind of said in New York Times article, like it ran its course and I didn't see her being like the person I wanted to be with forever. And honestly, I mean, I see why Sierra was very hurt by that because that's something he should have communicated to her and not made it all about the show or whatever. But and also just the idea of like going on a press tour about their relationship knowing that that's something she's sensitive to because of what happened with Austin like. That's not the best move west because it just because the issue with that is it shows he's more worried about his own, like what he looks like in the situation than her feelings. And that's exactly what she didn't want, right? Was she didn't want to feel like her feelings didn't matter. And I mean, there is an element to that, but I also think there was an element that West felt a little blindsided at the reunion. Like I didn't think he he talks about like he didn't expect Sierra to be that mad. And I kind of felt like the quotes or whatever that he said in New York Times was a little bit like, hey, these are the things like I afterwards I felt like I didn't get to say kind of thing. Which is still equally unfair to Sierra. Like, you didn't get to say it. You didn't get to say it. Move on. I was like, you're not the hurt party here. You should. Why do you need to have a say? Yeah. But also it's like on tears. And what I hope she realizes is like, If he felt it wasn't right, he did do you a favor by walking away. I mean, it's kind of interesting her giving all this advice to Paige. Um, and you know, obviously there's a whole narrative out there that Paige led Craig on, but while we don't agree with that narrative, but it's interesting, like. For Paige to do that to Craig is like essentially fine, but then like what Wes did to her in a very short amount of time with very little commitment is not fine. Like, there's some, like, hypocrisy there. I think, oh my gosh, the dreaded Nick Vile, I think, actually was the one to, uh, Point out the hypocrisy of, of Sierra there, which was kind of interesting. Um, that like, you know. So the whole concept of like, she was used by West. I mean, obviously this may or may not have played into the whole like, He got me into bed situation and I was very moved by Kyle's like crying. I think Jamie Stein talked a little bit about why he thought that and he was crying. But either way, I thought. It was moving to see that Kyle, like, respected, you know. How much love he has for Sierra in that moment. Yeah, and You know, she didn't want to just have like she talks about like I didn't want to just have like notches on my bedpost and like even that I was kind of like there's a there's a level of judgment there. You're on a reality show where like Emeril is like bringing three girls home a night. Um, you know, there's no judgment if you had 100 notches. And I wonder how much that plays into the show. And just because a relationship doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean it's a notch on your bed. Like, just because you had sex with someone and then had a relationship and then that relationship doesn't work, like, that's different than just, like, the season where Lindsay very openly is like, I'm just, like, gonna be single, Lindsay, and, like, have fun with guys and, like, power to her in that moment, but, like, Two different things. Yeah, like nobody felt that way about or I mean, maybe some people do because everyone's mean on the Internet. But I mean, I never felt that way about, her situation with Wes. I kind of felt like, well. You know, you should explore that side of your relationship before you get too serious, you know? Well, it also makes me think about, like, what... Might not have worked out between them is like how boundaried she is and like they talk kind of ominously or she talks a little ominously about how. At the time they broke up, she was going through stuff with her family and then didn't, like, go spend Christmas with them, which I'm like, I want to know more about what happened there. I'm like... Furious, like, is that her dad? Is that her mom? Like, is there more, like, attachment wounds that we need to know about? Yeah. Tell us more. And I wonder if, like, that was, like, West is someone who, like, Isn't in a mode of like being serious and being able to be that sort of like emotional support. Like, was that too much for him? Was he, did he recognize like. Part of what's not going to work here is I don't know that I can be what you need what you need right now like you're going through a lot and I don't I can't show up and that's valid like if you can't show up for someone it's better to end it than like Be a fake support or not be able to support them and, like, again, like, Sierra's probably better off for that than, you know, him trying to, like, make something work just to save face. Yeah. Definitely, I thought that was very telling when she was talking about that and I think it goes back to your bigger hypothesis, you know, like she Once a serious guy who's going to be there when she's going through these struggles, but then you're choosing the funny guy who tells you like really ships are like handcuffs like. Like, it can't be both. And I think there's an element of Lexi and Sierra and all the women. Let's actually, let's just say all the women of someone else. Which maybe is a bigger cultural thing of, like, wanting to, like, Fix these men. And it's like, and then getting frustrated and be like, my job isn't to fix men. And it's like, well, it isn't. What it feels like is wanting opposing things, right? Like, I want a guy who's going to be sweet, sensitive, and, like, loyal, but I also need him to be, like, a high earner who is, like, ego-driven and, like, Down to have a good time. Like, things that tend to, like, not, like, it's not that you can't find a guy who's all of those things, but, like, let's start doing the math. How many guys have all of those things? Yeah, and I mean, I get, it goes back to it. Like, most finance bros are not, like, sensitive. Like, they're, but also men want, women who are completely healed, don't have daddy issues, don't have any problems, aren't perfect, want to have kids, and look at like, I, it, that pool scene with Amanda and Paige was so interesting because Paige talks about like, when I go home, I do nothing. My mom cooks, she cleans, she loves it. And Amanda's like, my parents would pay me to like move back in. And I'm like, oh my God, they really had the leave it to beaver type of. Family environment, right? And then you have Craig who's like dating Paige and thinks she's the full, you know, we had very similar childhoods or parents, you know. And then she's like, you know what? I don't want that. I don't want to cook and clean and I don't want to have tons of babies. Well, I think it is the same thing for these men who, like, like a Craig who wants, like, this powerful woman who... Is career driven, who is independent, but then wants her to play this traditional housewife role. And it's like, uh, I guess there are women who can do both, but like, it's hard to do both of those things. Well, it's an interesting commentary on modern dating stuff. You know, and how these things are evolving and like also, you know, you know, Paige says this episode, she's the breadwinner or whatever, like. If that's the situation, like, who cares? Like, I felt like with Lindsay and Carl, I'm like, Lindsay, you love to work and you love to bring in the money and you love PR and you love doing this. Why do you need Carl to like be that person for you? Because I feel like you can be that person and Carl will be the sensitive guy who's going to be with the baby all day long. Support you, listen to you. Well, she made it to be about ambition, but then when he's sharing with her what he's ambitious about, she's like, well, that's not going to make you money. And it's like, so is it ambition or is it money? Because like those things don't always have to be the same you can be ambitious towards things that aren't necessarily going to make you rich. And that's still ambitious. And now she's in a situation with this guy Turner where he doesn't want to be on camera. He doesn't want the baby to be public. And that's opposing to the things that she cares about. It's going to limit her career. Yeah. And like, so you made that choice because you wanted someone who had the full, you know, I don't know. It just made me a little sad this episode with Carl crying about his brother and not having Lindsay as a support anymore. And I was again, Carl freaking loved Lindsay. Like, he loved her. And like... I don't like how it felt like, at least on my Instagram feed, people... It feels like misinterpreted that to be like he's still in love with Lindsay, which is not what I got from it. What I got from it was like he... So much respected what she gave him and the love and support that she gave him at the time that he lost his brother and that he truly misses having that person in his life. Not that he wants Lindsay back as like a partner. I think he fully recognizes that's not healthy for him and that's not right for him. And the night before only proved that. Yeah, And I mean, I think the way he handled that with Lindsay was so, I pray for you. No, the best moment was she was like, you don't have a good judge of character. And he's like, obviously. Like, I almost married you. It was like, I mean, Carl, sir. Oh, it just makes me sad to see them because I feel like there's a world where they could have worked it out. I know you always think I'm insane when I say that. What I don't love is it felt like coming into this last episode where Lindsay's calling him out about Lil. That like, oh, you're a cheater, you're a cheater. It's like, why are you still looking to vilify him? And that feels so rooted in like you needing him to be the bad guy and for you to be the victim, even though you're saying he's acting like the victim, um. When it's like, truly you got, like, you did each other a favor. Like, it was better that it ended. Like, why are you trying to make him now... And knowing that that weekend was the weekend of his brother's death, like, that's the weekend you're gonna choose to, like, like, attack him in this way, like, I don't know, like. It felt so calculated for her to try to, like, spin something because I think there's something about her that recognizes I'm having this baby in this way that, like, people could judge but instead of, like... She's constantly like deflecting the narrative so that people aren't like looking at her in a critical way. Yeah. And I mean, regardless of whose fault it was, I wish Lindsay would. Take a step back and really realize that those arguments they were getting into were so toxic. There is no way a child should have been involved. When you're screaming at each other that neighbors are getting involved and putting in complaints that you're storming out breaking water bottles or whatever. Carl's story. You're sleeping in a different rooms. You're not. Having any kind of sexual relationship. Like, I wish you would just recognize, like, all those things are not really her fault or Carl's fault, but are freaking red flags. Right. It's signs that this isn't a healthy place to get married. And just let it go from there. I don't know if she really has. She still wants to be like, he dumped me. Mm-hmm. And he, and I think, you know, she's been very triggered by him being like, I'm really angry with Lindsay. I'm still processing all these things. And then she's like, he broke up with me. And it's like, it does not matter who broke up with who. Like, really. You were both hurt in this situation. Yeah. But, um. Yeah, it's interesting too, like that reunion, um, you would think Carl and Lindsay's breakup would have been the main topic, but I feel like Sierra and Wes' breakup got just as much if not more like airtime. But I just want to say this. The whole Jesse and Wes, like, movement to get Sierra to be, like, friends with Wes again, I do think is unfair. Like, she doesn't want to be friends with him. Like, let it fucking go. Like. I don't, and then Jessie, like, taking that and then making it all about, like, well, why didn't we have sex was, like, insane, so I'm not even gonna start talking about that. Um, but what did you think about, like, her saying, like, West used me? I don't think he used her. I don't get the sense. I get why she feels that way, right? And like, there's a difference between feelings and facts, which is something a lot of us have to like learn to recognize within ourselves, even myself at times. Um. But like, I get why she feels that way. And there's a place for her to step back and maybe and again, I think it relates to like, stepping back and thinking about like, what she feels about her dad versus like, what are the facts of like, what's actually happening here that aren't just from like, This one very specific perspective. I think that There's a part, a role that she plays here, right? In, like, not recognizing that Wes continuously told her, I don't, like, commitment ain't for me. Commitment ain't for me. It's handcuffs. It's like, I like my independence. I like to be able to do what I want to do. I want to... And he said something like I don't want to like go and sleep with girls but I want to be able to like go out and like have fun and not worry about like being Responsible for another person's feelings and she actively chose to not like, let that be enough information that like, this probably isn't a situation that's going to meet my needs and And so there is, it feels like her wanting him to be the bad guy is a place of her maybe not fully wanting to acknowledge her role in this as well. Well, and now she's in a new triangulation of Jesse and Lexi. And I guess we're going to see a little bit more of this as episodes play on. But like Sierra... Um, you know, people are saying she's not a girl's girl because she didn't tell Lexi or because she was flirting with Jesse when Lexi wasn't around. I don't, I understand from Sierra's perspective how she's not taking this Jesse and Lexi situation that seriously, to be honest. Yeah. Um. Who is? Just Lexi. Just Lexi. Unfortunately. Poor Lexi. I actually do feel bad for Lexi. Um. in fairness, I've seen like her and watch it happens live and some other things where she's just like, she was unaware, like. Like, she's unaware. She is learning a lot as she's watching this. And so I'm going to be really interested. But also, again, another one who it's like, well, you're also choosing to ignore the signs. Like, Jesse comes in as this guy who's commenting on everybody's Instagram about how beautiful, like, he's flirting with everyone all the time. And so you're not totally unaware. Like, you're, you're saying I'm jealous. You're saying, right, like, again, like, it's not to say that it's okay for what Jesse did, but like, what? And she's not responsible or to blame for his behavior, but she does, it would be helpful for these women to recognize like, where is my role in kind of like playing into like what's happening when like, I am aware of some of the behavior. Maybe not all of it, but I'm aware of some of it. Well, she was definitely playing into the whole conversation when she was like, why didn't you fight it out with Wes for me then? But it's like, also, it's, I mean, I take it all with a grain of salt because I don't think it was going anywhere, but like, it's also kind of like, Sierra, Wes, Jesse is just as bad as Wes if you're trying to move away from the fuckboy. I don't think she had any intentions. I think she was enjoying the attention, which is, like, fine. Like, I don't think she's wrong for enjoying that and, like. Playing into that flirtation a bit. Yeah. Maybe she, like, needed her ego boosted that day. Oh my gosh. We've all been there. I am dying to see this scene with her and Carl, but I 100% agree with you. I... I mean, I don't think they're a bad pairing at all. Actually, they could be a really good pairing. They could be a really good pairing, yeah. But, you know, there is something Lindsay said that, she feels like Carl picks the girls that are, like, convenient or, like, And that, she had said, like, that's why he ended up with me, which I don't really agree with because, like, especially last episode, I was like, damn, he really freaking loves her. Like, you think you're easing lips? You think you're, you're. You're convenient or easy to date like you're convenient in that you were there and you lived in his building but like you are not easy to date and there's no way you were easy to date from day one. And he really loved her. Oh my god, when they talked about the planting of the tree, I was like, oh my god, I was crying. Yeah. Um, but... Yeah, I mean, there, I question the intentions with Sierra because I'm like, it does seem like convenient. But then again, when I watched some of these earlier seasons, Carl had a crush on her like from the beginning. And again, she's not an easy one to date. He's seen her date and she's not easy to date. Like, he's seen her and her boundaries. And so, like, I don't know if that's true. Like, if he was going for easy, like, there's probably plenty more. Easier places to start. Yeah, it is interesting to watch Carl's dating with, like, lemur girl and it's, I was shocked that the girl he decided to date was Direct opposite of Lindsay. I am not at all. There's like an overcompensation of like, I need something so so different. I just need something very different and I actually liked lemur girl I'm sorry the internet hating on her like I don't know she seemed cool. She came in with a different, different energy. I would have liked to see the lemon date. They're rushing through this season a little bit. Somebody online did this weird, timeline where they were, like, they skipped a whole weekend. A month, yeah, like, because I think it was, like, July 4th and then suddenly we're already in August. Well, I think when they did the calculation it ended up only being like a weekend. But that's still pretty significant. Right, right. So, Getting to the last questions. Yes. Um, Israeli TV good for Sierra. I question it watching this first season of her with Luke. she just seemed lighter. I mean, she was much younger then, too, so I don't want to like put that on her, but like she just seemed a little bit more like willing to explore things with Luke. You know, open to this new experience. And as I've seen her be on the show longer and longer, I see her being more closed off. And even her being on Watch What Happens Live, like, I'm never going to date a Bravo Liberty again. It's like. You're on a show that's about hooking up in the summer. Right. Then maybe don't be on the show. Right. I liked her on Traders, although, you know, her being closed off ended up making her get... Spoiler alert kicked off. She did go very far and we did predict that she would go very far. But I don't know if it's it's not hard. It's not like directly harming her like someone who's like struggling with alcoholism or like Really on a tailspin. she's got a good head on her shoulders. Like, she's gonna be far away. Yeah, I think it's been It's good for her in some ways, and then I think it's probably not been so good for her in some ways. I think it's been good for her in, like, it does feel like she's connected with her inner girl's girl, found her, like, Emotional groundedness in like other women that I think has probably been really like supportive and great for her. I do kind of agree that it does feel like it has made her hyper even like whatever part of her that's already kind of like hyper critical of how she is and how she's perceived it feels like it's amplified that to an oomph degree and like. That doesn't feel like a healthy what like you never want to overcompensate when you're self reflecting and go into a place of like extremes and it feels a little like at moments she does. She struggles with like how to not. Be in the extremes of something. Um, so I don't know that it's good or bad for her. I think there's good parts and challenging parts. I do, I can see it being a catalyst for her continuing to grow and even, like, Potentially looking at these boundary that she's putting in place that like aren't are coming from a more extreme place and how to like reel that in she does feel like she's got that head on her shoulders that would allow her to self reflect in those ways. In a way that, like, Lindsay, I don't ever expect her to self-reflect and be able to take any, like, accountability for anything. I feel like Sierra, potentially, I could see that. Her looking back and being like, okay, like, where can I reel this in? Yeah, I just had to look up her sign because I'm like really into signs right now. Maybe I'm just like getting targeted on Instagram really hard by like astrology sites, but she's a Capricorn. Ooh, that makes sense. Yeah, so Wes and her broke up like around her birthday too. Oh wow, yeah. Yeah, that adds a layer of. Of complicatedness. Like, fuck you, Wes. But, is she good for reality TV? So I've talked about in this pod before that she frustrates the hell out of me. I love her like I do like watching her like going back to that first season with Luke I like really Like watching her, but as a producer, I'm like, I'd struggle to know what to do with her sometimes because, you know, it is, it's interesting because we've talked about like. You know, you know, Maya was so great and they were good. I'm glad you're bringing this up. I was just thinking about this. Okay. Yeah. Like I, I, why didn't she come back? Right, I feel like part of why Maya didn't come back and I could be totally wrong is that I think that Maya is someone who, like, has a lot of boundaries and wasn't willing to, like, So we didn't really get to know her. We knew she had this like partner before and then they broke up. We knew she got into this relationship, but like it felt like she was so boundaried and how she was showing up and that it got to be to a place of like, okay, you're a little bit boring. She was dating that guy, um, Oliver. Right. And we got, like, he was basically found out that he was cheating on her all over the place. Right, but even how that came out was, like, so boundaried and controlled. Like, she didn't want that to, like, play out in real time in a way that, again, it's, like, boring. Yeah. And so it brings up to me for me like it and I'm always thinking about like people growing and changing and creating these boundaries and like. When we talk about boundaries, they shouldn't be about, like, things we're putting on other people. Like, our boundaries are always for ourselves. Yeah. And boundaries should always be something that we're, like, are malleable or flexible or not rigid. And yeah. It's are people with too many boundaries like not good reality stars because we like what are we as an audience we can start to feel right the contriveness or the roadblock between like getting to know them. And I remember really liking Maya's personality but also feeling like I don't really know you. Well, and it's interesting that you bring that up because we've talked about this on the podcast so much with the, it started with the whole Vanderpump Rules, that final season of Vanderpump Rules, and I was like, as much as I respect and love Ariana, like, I'm struggling to see a future where she's on reality TV because she has too many boundaries. And I think, honestly, Ariana realized that for herself. She said, like, I was never going back to Vanderpump Rules. Like, are you fucking crazy? And I know Lala and Sheena was made the the villains of that season. But they did kind of have a good point as well. But like, I think with the boundaries is something you hit on was You have boundaries for yourself and what you feel comfortable with. But I do feel like going back to the original thought of this podcast, it's interesting to watch the women of Summer House. weaponize their boundaries in some ways and kind of. And the men weaponize their lack of boundaries. Yeah. And yeah, right. Right. But also like that they're using those boundaries as a way to be like, You're gonna change because I have these boundaries, right? And that's not how boundaries work. People don't change. And the boundary isn't like, I want you to do this. I want, like... Asking for exclusivity is not a boundary. A boundary is saying that if I feel like you're not going to give me exclusivity, then I'm not going to pursue a relationship with you. That's a boundary. Yeah, not holding sex. The other person accountable for your about like, if you're that's control, right? Like when you're telling someone I need you to behave this way, you're trying to control them. And if that's not how they want to behave. And you can see that then like you're the one who needs to have the boundary. Well, and holding this carrot stick of like sex over these guys who are completely horned up. Like, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to obviously freaking lie to your face. Right. Right, right. That's what fuckboys do. And not saying you should sleep with them, but like. No, that's your boundaries. You get to choose your own boundaries. But if you're saying my boundaries, I'm not going to sleep with you unless you give me exclusivity like that boundary is coming from a place of like manipulation. Well, and like having seen now Carl's whole journey, he was, I mean, he does seem like he's a reformed Fuck boy in some ways because he was so bad to that one twin and to everybody else, you know, in those beginning seasons, you know, even Lindsay, their first go around. Well, look, drugs and alcohol, they affect your behavior. They affect how you think. They affect how you feel. They affect, like, your impulsivity. And now he's like, I haven't had sex with anyone for a year. I mean, Carl would be a better partner for Sierra than any of these guys that she's dating. But she wouldn't want, I don't think she would want it because she would be. She would be asked to go to vulnerable places that I don't know that like she has the like comfort or desire to go to. And again, it feels rooted in her dad like the vulnerability of even that. Yeah, and she said on Watch What Happens Live, and this kind of triggered me too, about Craig being like, Paige really needs a real manly man, like, who, you know, I can't remember her exact quote, but it was something along the lines of Craig was too... You know, sensitive. And yeah, I mean, what Paige said in this episode, like, I'm scared to go on this big tour and it's going to be overwhelming and like. He should have supported her. I, I agree. Like when you're doing something huge in your career and whether or not that affects the amount of time you spend with your partner, they should be riding hard for you. And she needed that in that moment. And that was a breaking point, I think, for that relationship. But on Craig's end, I also see like why he was struggling to support her because it was years of built up insecurity at that point. So like, I don't think either of them were right or wrong. Like she deserved what she needed from him in that moment. And he also deserved like an answer and he needed. And you know, she kind of talks about like, I'm never moving to Charleston. That's what I'm, you know. That's where I'm at with it. And like, that should have been just it, honestly. Right. Well, it didn't feel like that was communicated to him until, you know, it was already over. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, you know, then he was like, I'll move to New York or whatever. We don't know if that was even true. Obviously. Right. Storyteller and a lawyer. But yeah, I was like a little bit disappointed from Sierra to hear that. Um, because I'm like. That's not what you need. Um, so it also just feels like. Like, this pejorative way, like, everyone gets mad that Carl called Lindsay soft, like, wanted Lindsay to be soft, but, like, then... You're saying I need men to be hard like it's like this idea that like you each have this role again like what you're saying this like new idea of like dating and moving outside of gender norms and like the complexity. of like, what does it mean if we're not fulfilling our gender norms and what role do we have in this relationship and what expectations should we have of each other and like. Like, I do think that for Paige and maybe all the women but specifically Paige right now because that's what we're seeing unfold it's like she has this very traditional family makeup. Then she's coming into this relationship that wants that and then she doesn't want it and it's like all this confusion of like okay well if I don't want exactly that but I do want that what is it that I want. Yeah, and yeah, me and my husband had a conversation recently about like our fathers and we were like, you know, both of us was kind of like You know, our memories of our childhood is our our dads being very emotionally distant or checked out, you know, We don't know how much that affected their marriages, but like as children, we picked up on that. And it is interesting how this new generation, we are trying to change patterns and there's messiness in that. And I think we both genders contribute to that, right? The soft word is so triggering. Men can't be soft. Women shouldn't be told to be soft. Or the idea that we could be like one or the other, right? Like, I think there's, like, we have all these different parts in us that can come out. We have soft parts. We have harder parts. And they're going to come out in different ways for different things like I was I was raised by a single father who was both very like emotionally available for me as his daughter and I saw him like have terrible relationships with women. Because he, like, could not be vulnerable with women. And, yeah, I have a lot of, like, psychology. But, like, I saw my dad hold both of those parts. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, and I just want to say I support. Carl's soft bar. I don't know why everyone keeps shitting on it so hard. Right? I don't know. Like, why is it such a terrible idea? Especially in the Bravo world where, like, I don't know, opening a restaurant or a bar or what a... A hangout spot is like a normal line of business to go down. Yeah, I mean, like, how different is, um, the something about her to soft bar? Right, like, something about her seems even less like it would be successful and, like, look at it. Because I mean, like, coffee shops are successful, they don't have alcohol. And again, like, ambition, is it like, it does, what is success? Like, I guess in Lindsay's mind, success is millions and millions of dollars. Where for Carl, it may just be like, is the place sustainable and a place that like makes me feel good and promotes like this story that's important to me like. What is, like, success means different things and ambition means different things for different people and there's, like, no room for that to be different in any of these couple dynamics. but- Yeah, we moved on a lot of topics, but yeah, for Sierra, I want her back, but I want her- To bring more. Yeah, I want to see her continue to date and I want... Which I think is going to be hard if she's not willing to date anyone from the Bravo world. Well, maybe she'll bring somebody on. So I'm cool with that too. Um, I hope that if she does want to stay on, um, I hope she continues to date and. Will not be in a place of like this person can't be filmed because I need to like protect it. Because I think it'll be good for her to continue to like watch herself in relationships and be able to like witness that unfold and maybe even get feedback even if that feedback isn't always helpful. Yeah, and honestly, I can see her on Roni, too. Mm-hmm. Put them all on Roni. Put them all on Roni and let Lexi. And then bring back the OGs, too. Like, have Dorinda be their, like, house mother. Yes, who just comes in to advise them every once in a while. Yes, yes, and Sonia can like give them sex tips and Luann can be the entertainment. Yeah, I don't, uh, I don't know, about the future of Summer House. I think Lexi is, I mean, they're bringing in younger people, you know? Which I don't know is actually going to be the direction. we have to see the reunion. This season is very good though, so. Totally. Yeah. Loved it. Anyways, um, we are coming down to our last couple episodes. So, before we take a little bit of a break. So, if you want to see us talk about something, now's the time. Yeah, we may only have one or two left in us. Before we're gonna take a couple months off, so now's your chance. But thank you for listening. We'll be back two weeks.