Sonja Morgan from Real Housewives of New York City

This week, we’re diving headfirst into the chaotic fabulousness of a true Bravo legend: Sonja Morgan. From headlines about demanding comped meals in NYC to a dramatic ambulance exit in Florida, Sonja’s been busy — and we’re here to unpack it all. We trace her iconic (and often unhinged) journey through Real Housewives history and ask the tough questions: Is she a grifter or just blissfully detached from reality? Why is she still clinging to the "Morgan" name like a Birkin? And does she still belong in today’s reality TV landscape? Tune in for all the hot takes, deep cuts, and vintage toaster oven references you didn’t know you needed.

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Chapters

• 3:15 Old RHONY vs. New RHONY
• 8:51 Sonja backstory and Reddit Rumors
• 14:32 Sonja's relationship with her ex
• 19:41 Sonja's family
• 27:09 Sonja's various "jobs"
• 30:12 Sonja's grifts
• 37:45 Are Sonja's con's intentional?
• 46:29 Sonja's drinking
• 54:22 OG RHONY's final season
• 1:04:47 Sonja Morgan and Donald Trump
• 1:09:34 Love Hotel
• 1:11:29 Sonja's future on TV
• 1:13:34 Lindsay Hubbard update
• 1:18:05 Ciara's backstory on the reunion

Transcript

Alrighty. We're here. It's pride month. I was going to say we're here. We're queer. Get used to it. Pride month. Yes. Today is June 1st. Wow. Yeah. June 1st. And we're doing a a a queer icon. Wow. We were on brand. I know, I like it. I know. so today we are covering Sonja Tremont Morgan from Real Housewives of New York. OG og. I don't know if you rewatched this episode, but She was grand marshal of the marriage equality. March across the Brooklyn Bridge where her and Lou remember? Yeah. And, um, Alex all wore wedding dresses. And then right before her speech, her and Alex and, Remember Alex's husband Simon getting this whole argument because Simon wanted to speak at the Marriage Equality Act. Oh my gosh. Um, and then Alex was going crazy because she was like, we need to make it legal. Legal? And she just kept saying equality. And then and then we were really robbed to not get that Morocco season of girls trip and get Alex again one more time. Oh, my God, I know watching the Morocco trip with Real Housewives of New York was like, amazing. They go to this random guy that they knew who happened to also be in Morocco like party, right? And like, there's a dude with a snake and, like, they all like, knew like, what was so amazing about OG. I mean, there's so many things. I mean, we could make a whole podcast just about that. But was so great about it was like there was so many natural events and like, natural things happening where it wasn't so like staged and like, now we're filming this charity gala, you know, it was really like, well, and I think that was part of its downfall. Was that like that last season was like after Covid. And so they didn't get to like have those like natural like casting aside, I like feel like it had so little to do with like who the cast was and more that like where they thrived. And I think this is such like a New York thing too, is like to be out of your element. Like New York isn't about being in your apartment with your friends, it's about being out and experiencing other people. And that was what was always so amazing. Like they were always like doing something and running into random people, like, even the like, what are you doing here without Dorinda? Run in with John and like the Harry Dubin of it all, like, oh, and they would go to the back room at boutique or whatever through the kitchen, right where I feel like in that final season of the OGs, it was like they didn't get that. And I, I really think that was a bigger part of the downfall than anything. but they could have done more of that with the newbies. I guess it's just like, yeah, when you watch these other relationships are not natural, I know, but like also it's like it's harder to clear these things now, like on a production end. Like I get it, it's much easier if like, Aaron throws a party for her, like tequila brand or whatever. Um, and like, you know, who's going. You have it all preset up, but at the same point. Like, what was great about Real Housewives of New York original is like they show up to Brad's party in Morocco. Like, I don't know how planned that was or wasn't, but like, or they'd be at this party and like, it would be like Candace Bushnell who wrote sex and the city, you know, like other socialite or. Right. Like all these, like, real, like interesting characters that kind of pop up that aren't part of necessarily the cast, but like, play a big role in like creating dynamics. And I think it is becoming a bit of like a, I hate to say like laziness, but like a part of, like, let's just set everything up so we know, like have everyone pre-cleared because before, like, I mean, when I started in this business, I was a production assistant and I went to, like, Kimora Lee Simmons, like fashion show. I was working as a P.A. I had to run around to get like 100 people to sign a release and like that's hard to manage. But also it's like you can blur people and post whatever, but like there is an aspect of reality TV where I feel like they're starting to become, unwilling to invest in that kind of like run and gun style and yeah, that was my main complaint about that first season of New Ronny too, was like, they don't go to parties, they don't go to events. They don't just like go out. And when they do, they don't film it and then they miss stuff, and then they're kind of recapping things that we missed, you know. Right. And you're so disconnected from it. Yeah. That was like really frustrating. But anyways, so getting into Sonia, she's also been in the news recently. Yeah. We've been wanting to do Sonia for a long time. And with all this kind of, like, grifter type news, it just felt like kismet to kind of do this. So she finally sold the townhouse, right? Which was a whole kind of like living. And she was kind of like living in all these different places, sometimes with Josh Flagg, sometimes in Virginia. I think she had something about Virginia, and then sometimes in West Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, and then Virginia, I guess, is also with her family. Um, but she did finally sell the townhouse. Now she's maybe in Florida, but she was recently in New York. She was at a restaurant and expected a comped meal, but they weren't going to give her a comped meal. And then she, like, freaked out when she got the bill and it was like, thousands of dollars, obviously. and then she recently had some kind of thing in a restaurant in West Palm and ended up leaving in an ambulance, which, should we ever get clarity of what happened there? No, I mean, they released a video and she was like, I'm getting set up because this happened to me also recently or whatever. Wasn't there a season two where they had to call an ambulance when she was on a trip and they had to give her, like, fluids, and Bethany was there? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, when you drink that much, sometimes you need, like, fluids to function. Yeah, I mean, I did read somewhere that they were saying, like, either you leave in an ambulance or we arrest you basically. And she was like, well, then obviously I choose the ambulance. That's an interesting choice, that that was the ultimatum she was given. Yeah. I mean, Luan didn't get that choice. She got straight to the slammer. She did kick a police officer, though, or whatever. Um, balls on that one. Yeah. So, She comes in in the third season, right? I think so, yeah. The third. And she's actually like a friend at first, right? She's not got a main role until a little bit later on. And I think even in the season that she came on, she doesn't get introduced into like a couple episodes in. So Sonja Morgan was married to John. John Morgan is the name, right? John Quincy Morgan? Because I think he's related to one of the presidents. Right. One of the John Quincy Adams. Who's that? Is was he a president? I should know more about American history. I'm sorry, guys, that is not her forte. Yeah, not our forte. Um, he's also, like, from the bank, like Morgan. Right? Morgan Stanley's financial. Very rich, very prominent. Yeah. So that's like where she's coming from. They've divorced. I want to I mean, we should get into her backstory in the show, but I'm going to throw out, like, the rumor mill because she never says like. I mean, she's very distraught over all the time that she's on the show about her husband's divorce, even though it seems like she's divorced, even like they've broken up a couple of years before she's even on the show, right? Right. They, from what I understand, is why she decided to go on the show was because, um, after the divorce, she had all these, like, financial problems that came up, like, all these people were kind of, like, coming after her for money. There's the film. I don't know if it was the film thing or some other, other things that came. And she needed to have some like stream of income. And so that's what I understood. Her decision to finally come onto the show was because I think when they initially asked her to be part of it was when the divorce had kind of first started. And like, I think her life was probably too much like up in the air. Yeah. And she has a daughter, um, with her ex, and she's not public, but she's an adult now. And, like, you can, you know, go on her Instagram and there is, like, more information about her because she's never shown on the show at all. Um, and I will say, like for the women's antics On this show, which I would say like Ramona, Sonja, Dorinda, um, they're all amazing mothers because I would say like, their children are like so level headed and often the voice of reason for them. Like when you do see them on the show. So I give them like and I mean, we are seeing these women with their girlfriends like on trips, getting drunk. So I think they've all done a good job of protecting their daughters to like if you look at like how Bethenny like really was intentional about like trying to keep her daughter separate from the show and Sonja even like the way she, you know, I don't think she was allowed to film with her daughter. But there, you know, it was very intentional, the way she would talk about her and the mutual respect they had for each other as mothers to, like, not bring children into things that, like you don't always see on some of the other franchises. Yeah. And Luann's kids are very like artsy and cool to like. It's just interesting to see them all, you know, as adults now and be like, wow, they're so well adjusted. You know, they're not going. To be doing the New York City Next gen Gen Z show because I feel like the Roni. Kids are just like kind of cooler, like they're like, we don't need that. Yeah. Like, none of the Roni kids are on it. Um, though I'd be way more interested in seeing. Like Hannah and like, like Dorinda's daughter and Quincy and like, Luann's kids, like, they all seem really cool and artsy. Which is. And, like, well traveled and and I think we talked about this when we talked about Luann's cabaret, too, is like, these women did live like incredible lives. And that's kind of where Sonja is coming from, is like, she was married to this really rich and prominent man who's like, you know, very powerful in the finance world, but then also like historically, like, well, revered. And she has this, like, perfect daughter with him and like the picture perfect life, like literally they have portraits of each other that she has to, like, take off the wall and they're like, picture perfect, you know, husband and wife, you know, and she's drop dead gorgeous. but yeah. So she never talks about the reason for the divorce. And like, she says, it's to protect her daughter. Um, and she doesn't want to get into the, you know, the, the back and forth, which is like, I kind of respect, but it also is like super limiting. Um, and she's also just super adamant that, like, the divorce was like this mutual, respectful, like we still love each other. And there's this part of her that's like, that's still my family, even though we're divorced. Like, this is like, I still want to be attached to like this, even though I'm not, like, legally anymore. But then there's, like, huge cracks in that narrative as well, because she's like that first season she was on, she had like a conversation with Kelly Bensimon and Luann and she's like, oh, did your husband cheat? Like it starts like like insinuating all the stuff about cheating. And then Kelly Bensimon in, in an interview is like, if you're bringing this up, it obviously like happened to you, but then she doesn't ever say it and she alludes. There's also a part of her that, like, wants to hold this very particular narrative about the divorce because it allows her to hold on to this like, fantasy world that she holds on to of, like still being part of the Morgan family, right? Like, we see her go into that delusion multiple times, like throughout the many seasons she's on where she's like, that's my family. I'm still part of that. That is still who I am. I'm still the socialite wife. And if I really kind of break down, like what's coming up for me is like, if she really breaks down what happened and why that marriage ended, then she does have to kind of like let go of some of that identity. And so it benefits her to be like, I'm going to be very careful about, like the narrative for me is that this was a mutual decision. We still love and respect each other because that allows me to still stay attached to it. Yeah. Which I have a question that I want to pose to you on this, but first let me get into the Reddit rumors. The Reddit rumors is that both Sonia and her husband cheated, and that there was some period of time that Sonia's husband was like very ill. He was also much older, had gotten into an accident and was like hurt and needed help. Okay, that's what I read when I did my Reddit your Reddit deep dive and she like, refused. She was like partying in the south of France and refused to leave France and come and help him. And then her best friend ended up going and taking care of her husband. And the husband left Sonia for the best friend. Mhm. That's what I saw. But that's actually really interesting. and then there is a scene where she has to go meet up with him to like talk about the settlement, like they legally divorced, but she hadn't gotten a settlement. So they were supposed to meet up and she's like, oh, I'm finally going to see him in person. So it's clear that they don't speak or anything. And then she's like devastated afterwards because she thought, like they would sit down and have a conversation and like restart at least a friendship. And instead, like the lawyers kept them isolated in two different rooms and she never got a chance to even speak to him. So my question that I want to pose is like she continuously throughout the show is like he was my best friend, but I like struggle with that because she never gives like evidence of any best friendship other than like let's remember the huge age gap between them, right? Like this is like Tom Erika Girardi age gap. Right? Like, isn't there a good 2030 like some significant amount of years between them? That's like, could he really have been your best friend given like you're in different developmental places. Like how like how much can he relate to? Like, what a, you know, 20 something year old woman is, is like experienced white woman is experiencing versus his like, I don't know what was he 60 at the time like? Well, and she only ever talks about their like lifestyle together. And even I don't know this was something kind of subtle. But when they go to that Morgan house in the Berkshires, they're they're showing whichever Morgan lived in that house or whatever, their bedroom, and it's like two twin beds and then like, whatever. And, um, they're talking about, oh, you know, it was unusual, even at that time, for a husband and wife to share a room, um, but not unusual for them to have separate beds, yada, yada, yada. And then Sonia even gets into. Yeah, me and my husband had separate, had our own rooms. Yeah, yeah. We would we come together and have sex and then we'd go to our own rooms and have our own bathrooms and our own experiences. Well, I think that whole best friendship again, kind of like is part of this, like, delusion fantasy world she creates in order to, like, stay in the identity that she is a Morgan. Like there's something for her that needs to be attached to. Like I am a Morgan no matter what. And so even though we are not together, our family, we don't have like they don't even have, like you said, they they couldn't even sit in a room with their lawyers like they don't have a relationship. And yet, like, she's right, like there's such a discrepancy between, like, this thing that she holds in her mind of what? Her connection to her husband, her ex-husband, her, this family. I also read in the rumor mill that part of the divorce was that the family encouraged them to get the divorce like that. His family had encouraged the divorce to happen. Um, and that they were a bigger like part of it than a decision between Sonia and, John. John? Um, um, John. John. And so I think that's really interesting. This, this she does talk about John. She He does talk about John. John. Just like John. John's dead. So. Yeah. And like Carroll was like best friends with John. John. And she's like, I party with John John on a yacht once. And it's like, what? Again, the like this, this like fantasy world that she creates for herself that like, it's not that it's not. There's none of it that's real. And there's so much more desperation to like, where what what if it can I cling on to. And part of it, I think, is this, like narrative that he's my best friend. We're good. We're still family. Like she uses that word family so much. Like that's my family, which I think is really interesting because if we really kind of like at least in my watch back or what I could like, remember, like, we don't hear about Sonia's, family of origin. Yeah. There's only one time I can think about her talking about her family of origin, and it's when it's in like, I think one of the I think it was the last season they go to see that like medium. Um, and Sonia brings up that she's in therapy and she, it's a very like vague reference to like her relationship with her dad being like a core wound for her. But we don't get, like, any background information, like, there's no, like, nothing else. Yeah. I think in Atlantic City when she had, like one of her meltdowns and like, Bethany's trying to like, talk her into, like going to therapy or something, she's like, you know, I respect like, Bethany's position and like that she relates to where I'm at. But the difference is I'm really close with my family. You know, I'm really close with my family. I'm really close with my daughter. You know, Bethany doesn't have that. But then, like, we we don't see a sister. We don't see a brother with my family. Who is she talking about? I think she's talking about the family in Virginia. The Morgan family? Well, I think she's talking about her family in Virginia. That's interesting. I think it was somewhere I read that she was on a podcast, and I think it was with Josh Flagg, because I think that they must have a very close relationship. Yeah, he's someone she's opened up to that she talks about how her her she has some siblings and how they're like kind of deeply Christian, which is really interesting and that they've never watched the show and they like, refuse to watch the show. And so, again, it feels like you're really close with them, but they seem so different than you. And like, how open are you? Could you really be with these deeply Christian siblings who like as like someone who on the show is like a sex symbol, right? And like, so open about her. Like your whole personality on the show is like your sexuality. I think what was surprising to me in my rewatch was like, How little like because obviously there's so many seasons Sonya's on. So I want to try to get through as, like, as much as I could. And like it was shocking to me how little growth you saw throughout all those seasons. If anything, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Like if if you watch, like the first season, she almost seems more put together. Oh yeah, I would say I remember in those like first season, she seems like she's kind of like at least able to put up this like front of like being a like she's always like dressed nicely. She's always like she's a little bit more like social. You see the socialite in those first couple of seasons where towards the end, like she can't keep a dress on like she, she can't even, like, functionally like put on a dress or a wig or whatever. It's funny because I think I texted you with the first season. I was like, she's so different. But as I was watching, I was like, you know what? I don't feel like she was so different in that first season. I think she had a better Control. Yeah, a better front because then as it goes on, like she's very consistent after that, like in her mess of everything. Well, it does make me wonder like the further that the, you know, the further she got into like the divorce and which means like, the further away she got from like, being a Morgan. Like, the more she starts drinking. Um, but also the more she starts, like owning her, like, sexuality and owning her ability to. Just like, I'm not as attached to that name. So there also is, I imagine, a little bit of like freedom to that, too, of like, I don't need to be the socialite. Like, I could see this, like, bind in her between like, I want to be this, like socialite, Upper East Side woman. And I want to be like this free sexual creature. And like where those two identities, like, come into conflict with each other. Yeah. And I think she talks a lot on the show about, like, I want to marry again. I want to meet someone, but like. and she does meet a lot of guys and she's dating them, but it's all very superficial. Like it's interesting to see, you know, Luann breaks up with the count she gets with Jack. They had a really long, meaningful relationship. Ended in a pirate scandal. Um, then she meets Tom, and they get married. Like, there's so much happening in Luann. Like, love life. Um, and then even Ramona, like, obviously, she breaks up with Mario, and then she's looking for another guy. But like, you see it play out a little bit more like Sonja. Never. It's another one where I'm like, like the best friend thing, where I'm like, do I believe, like, do I believe that you actually want to get married again? I don't think she is like, and I think if you go back to like the idea of her marriage, like she loves the idea of being the socialite, but I don't think she loves the idea of being a wife, because when it came down to it, if the rumors are true that like when her husband was injured and she needed to go be with him and give up like socializing and partying, she's like, no, no, no, I choose to be here. This is so much better. Like, again, it feels like this bind in her that like wants to be one thing, but also wants to be something else. And like, can't be both things at once. So for me, I don't think she wants to be a wife again. And if we like, we hear about all of these different relationships she's had where, you know, with Harry, with Tom, with like. But they're never meaningful. They never seem like they're long term. They're not committed. They're not exclusive. There's something about freedom for her of like, not being attached to a man, but needing, like, validation from a man still. Yeah. And I mean, in Morocco, the psychic, the advice. The psychic who was another one very, you know, told Ramona, like there's other women with Mario and everyone's like, no, I don't believe it ended up being like she also needs her own show. Um. The Moroccan. She should get with the the real, the Beverly Hills one. Like I know be a power duo of, like, predicting all the downfalls of bravo marriages, right? So, uh, she says to her, uh, meet someone for love. Like, don't worry about money. Like money will come. Don't look for money. And that was, like, really interesting because obviously, like, throughout the whole series. Yeah. She's very attached to this concept of like being a wife, but in general she's like, I throw parties, I do this, But then when you see any of this play out, every party is a freaking disaster. Like anything she tries to do, she falls on her face. So it's like she's constantly selling this narrative that she's like this wife and this socialite and blah, blah, blah, but but when it comes to actually putting it together, like, I mean, how many parties like the burlesque party she showed, like so many people are here from France and blah blah blah. And you look at the crowd and it's just like a bunch of like. It's like, what? She throws a masquerade ball and basically the smallest room in Cipriani's and Jill is like, this isn't a masquerade ball. This is like people in weird costumes in a in a wine cellar right now. Oh my gosh. And then going back to the whole restaurant scandal, I was like shocked to learn, like in the first or second reunion she's at, she talks about how she was a restaurant consultant for years and that, um, that's why they give her free comp meals everywhere she goes. So she's like, even though it seems like I spend all this money lavishly, I get all this stuff for free. And I was like, oh my God. Ding ding ding. she's still doing that. But again, throughout the hundred years she's been on Housewives, I've never heard her talk about food or having any knowledge of food, any knowledge of restaurants trying to be like, well, this is like everything with her, right? Like she feels like if I just say it, I can manifest it. Like there's one scene with her and Bethany where she was like, I've been in PR my whole life, and Bethany's like, no, you have like, what are you talking about? Like, no, you haven't. And Bethany's just kind of like, calm down. Like, stop trying to, say things that aren't true. And she gets so offended and upset and hurt and feels so, diminished and gets then gets drunk and reactive. Right? That seems to be her pattern. Like as soon as she's kind of like called out as like not being what she says she is or not being able to do what she says she she like, gets drunk and like decompensate so quickly. but it feels like there's something about her that's like, if I just say it, then it's true. And her reasoning behind the PR thing was I promote people. I talk positive about people. It's like if I go around my group of friends and I'm like, Sam's the best. I've been in PR my whole life to like, I'm always hyping my bitches. Like talking up your bitches isn't PR, but I want it to be. And I want to add it to my resume, right? If you talk up your bitches, you're in PR, basically, according to Sonja Morgan. But it's such like a fantasy that she creates of, like, I can do anything and then like the restaurateur, the then even going to like the bigger like film of it, the film issue of it all, like, I'm going to make films now, I can do that because I have money and access and like, I don't that's not, I don't like that's not how that works. I mean, and the way she describes it is so amazing to me because she's like, I'm not the first girl who was like, down on her luck and sad about losing her husband and husband got, you know, swept up in the Hollywood scene. She's a she is an amazing storyteller. She is like her and Craig Conover. Jinx. Yeah. Like Craig. And she may even be able to say, like I'm a lawyer at some point. You know, she's been through enough lawsuits. She's like, she's a she's a storyteller and a socialite, and he's a storyteller and a lawyer. Like perfect match. Perfect. I'm sure she's hit on him. Oh my God. Bravocon. Let's make that pairing happen. I haven't deep dived into the legal of this all and wouldn't understand it, but $7 million over a film that never was made because of John Travolta. That's like basically what her judgment ends up being. But I'm like. she had to have committed some serious fraud in this whole situation to get a judgment like that. Like she had my Reddit deep dive, um, which was not super deep. It was a little bit more of a shallow dive is that she falsified bank records, saying that she put I can't remember exactly how much money into an account, into escrow to hold John Travolta's spot on the advice of her lawyer. You know, obviously she's saying he told me I should falsify it and say it's there so that we can get him in, and then we'll get the funding later once we have him committed, which there may be some truth to that, I'm sure. Like that doesn't sound completely, you know, to falsify your you know, if you're falsifying something, you must know you're doing something wrong if you're lying. Um, but but that's what I understood. She, like, falsified that she had this money for him that didn't really exist. Yeah, that makes sense to me, because I think she would need to go pretty far into that lie that John Travolta is fully attached, because the development process in unscripted, which I understand more than scripted but like in general, is like, you know, you sometimes work in these projects for years and there's a lot of legal documents and stuff like that. But for a judgment like that, that other company would have had to put in so much money under the guise that John Travolta is attached in order to get that level of judgment, which then we're talking about fraudulent documents, fraudulent bank accounts, like we're not trying to make the judgment that she has to pay the money. There must have been like real fraud that was happening. So and so that tracks that. There was some that that she falsified these records. But and I think she admits to doing it and says but says that the lawyer told her to do it, that he was the one who advised her that that was the right thing to do. Well, she was just a young girl swept up into Hollywood. but let's get into the grifter of it all then, because I feel like we're already touching on that. Totally. Well, first, I'm curious, like, what you think about, like, all of her business ideas, because that was something that I was rewatching back that scene where she's sitting down. I think there's one where she sits down with Jill Zarin about her, like toasters, but there's one where she sits down with, Kristin's husband, who I guess is like a he's a business guy. Like, that's what he does. And she's telling him about all of her business ideas, and, like, he's kind of like, well, you need to, like, pick something and like, focus on that. And she's like, no, I have this idea and this idea and this is already made, and she's going so quickly and so manically that you're like, well, what is real here? And what's an idea? And I feel like he's just kind of like you're saying all this is real because she's like, it's going to go on the shelves next month. He's like, has a product been made? Like, how is it getting to the shelves? Like what's what's going on here? And I'm curious what you think about like her. Well, it's funny, I still I want a Sonia toaster but like. Yeah, it well, it's funny that you listed those scenes because I saw different scenes with other people that were very similar, like throughout the series. She must have, like, advised every person and their husbands because. So yeah, because the scenes I saw take none of the advice either. Right. Like she advises these people but then like seems disinterested in if they have any criticism or anything that like doesn't align with what she wants to do. And a lot of it is helpful. Like so she meets with Ramona at some point when she was doing her like jewelry line or whatever. And Ramona's kind of says the same thing as, um, the husband, like, you have too much going on, like, just pick one thing and focus on it. And she's like, I like, you know, I appreciate her, but I want to talk to Heather. So then she meets with Heather, and Heather is like, okay, I get it that you're doing all these different businesses. Just come up with a, like a, a brand that Sonja Morgan and then have each one like under it. and then, we can have a logo that incorporates everything. She, like, brings on this branding guy that helps her, like, pick out the logo, and she's, like, spiraling about the logo. Hates all of them. Doesn't like anything. Yeah. And they do bring out the toaster. And the toaster is like the most generic looking like you could get this from Walmart toaster, but it just has a little signature Sonia on it, and she's like, this is ready to hit the shelves tomorrow. We don't have time for branding, like, which is like obviously the most important part of your business. That's basically the same conversation she has with Kristen's husband where he's like, you need to do like you need to have a brand. You need like you need a PR company who's going to tell you like what products to actually start with. And she's like, I can't, I have it all. It's all ready for the shelves. We need to get it going. It's like, but this is years later now that she's saying this and then like, and it started in that first season, season three with Kelly Bensimon, that she was just going to do a cookbook. And here's the thing. You asked me what I think about her business is, and I have to say, they're all good ideas. Like that is what's kind of shocking about this. Like she just executed any of them to even 30% more than she did. I feel like she could have, you know. I mean, how many Bravo people came out with a cookbook or whatever and made money off of it? she could have just started with the toaster oven cookbook. That could have been like, okay, then do her toaster oven, because that makes a lot more sense. The Sonja parties were a flop. They were not it. it feels like it's all really attached to this, like, desperate, like need for, like, validation and success that she has, but, like, doesn't want to ever be, like, edgy. Like she wants to, like, have it happen within herself, but like, doesn't actually have that capacity. So again, feels like I've generated this narrative that I'm a businesswoman. So I should just be able to make businesses happen that are successfully Fully and skip all the steps in between. And then every time she falls on her face, like it's actually really impressive when I think about like, the level of like, delusion fantasy she lives in that, like, still means I'm like that. None of that failure or rejection she experiences ever, like, slows her down. It is like she's got the confidence of a mediocre white man vibe, you know? Like it's incredible. Like, how do I get that? Like, because I feel like any, like, simple rejection I get. I'm like, I quit. I know. It's so it's actually quite I mean, it's it's sad, but also like impressive at the same time. It is, it is. But it does come down to who she partners with too, because I do want to give her like a little bit of flowers for her. Her dress line, her dress line was pretty successful. It was in century 21. I remember the dresses being gorgeous. No idea if she's still doing that, I'm gonna assume no. I think it actually got impacted by Covid because all those like century 20 ones ended up closing. Yeah, I mean, that was like her main partner too. But I mean, her dresses were gorgeous. Um, yeah, they were really cute. They really, like, were attached to, like, what felt like her identity to some extent. Right. Like, it felt like connected, which, I mean, like, it makes sense. She went to fit, like, she clearly is like a fashion background, And the tipsy girl thing, I mean, she just doesn't have instincts when it comes to sketchy people either. But I guess the question I wanted to ask you was, do you think her, her cons, her grifts, her scams, her businesses? Do you think like it's intentional? Or is she really that dumb? Because like, that came out harsher than I wanted. But it is my question. Um, because, like, remember she had all those interns and she wasn't paying them. And I'm so glad you brought up the interns. Yeah. Because I want I want interns. And, like, we both came up around the same time in New York, and there was, like, a just a general New York grift that was happening where it was like, you have to intern for someone and you're not going to work for free if you want to, like, get anywhere in life. Yeah. And we all did it because we were told that's what you need to do. So, like in a way I'm like, okay, this fits in with New York culture because I do know that. But like the way she just so blatantly is like, I don't pay these people and they're basically like my assistants, but they're learning. What are they learning? You have no business. It's like the question is like, is she completely in some unconscious state believing that, like, I am Lady Morgan and my interns who work for me are getting experience in Morgan Stanley finance. Is she deluded to the point that, like, I actually believe I hold this value in the world that these people who are doing a free service for me are gaining something from it, I do feel like she holds like a very, very strong, like disconnect from reality of like who she is in the world and is constantly clinging to this idea of her value and her importance being connected to like, I'm a I am a Morgan, and therefore I move through the world with this privilege and people should give me things and should be offering me things, and opportunities should be coming to me just because of that. And I think there must be a part of her that recognizes that's not true and understands that, like there's some conning going on here. But yeah, I don't I don't think she's dumb, but I do think that she has created something that is like deeply, maybe mentally ill in the way that it's like detached from reality, like who she thinks she is versus like, who she really is in the world or not. On the same playing field all the time. I don't know, what do you think? Yeah. I mean, I agree it's tough because it's like she does it so consistently and is still obviously doing it now with this whole like restaurant scandal that I agree that it does feel like she, she believes it. And maybe that's why she's so good at it. but it's hard to excuse. It's hard to just give a pass in any way. And I think the only people who really try to hold her feet to the fire is Bethany and that tipsy girl fight. and she just breaks down crying, which she, like always, kind of does. And then I mean, Dorinda is the only other person who kind of. And there's not really. Right. Yeah, there's not really one scene, but there's multiple times where Morgan Letters is a perfect example of that. Or the crest on the shoes. Right. She's like, this is my look. I made these shoes. They're my family crest. And Dorinda is like, wait, that's like your like, what crest are you talking about? And when she says, Morgan, Dorinda is like, that's not your family. Like that's the right. Like this questioning of like, this ownership she has over still being that person. And she goes apeshit, right? Like she starts drinking and kind of like, goes into hysterics and like, how dare you try to. Yeah. The other time is like when they get into the whole thing about her divorce being the same as, uh, dorinda's husband dying, and she's like, no, he's still alive. Like it's not comparable. Um, which, I mean, I always kind of saw both sides of that, but like, you see enough of Sonia, like, throughout the years where it's like, get over this divorce, like, but but she can't write because if she did, like, what would her identity be? And there were times, especially towards the end where I felt like, okay, it's time for Sonia to leave the show because I was like, she's not evolving at all, but she's still fascinating to watch. I mean, I remember when they put Luann as a friend of and then she, like, got into gear. I always wondered, like, if Sonia ever got downgraded, if she would, like, make some stuff happen, you know, so we're seeing like she no longer has a place on TV and she's like continues to like decompensate. And yeah. So like if that is the case that we're saying her cons or the interns is really a delusion and she's not intentional about it because she is like, anytime she's confronted, she cries and she's so sweet and she's got they're like, she's sweet and has a good heart. And like, they give her all these passes and maybe she deserves them because like you said, she's kind of unwell. But like, how is a therapist? Do you fix that person? Oh, gosh. Well, as a therapist, I would feel. No, um, I'd feel no responsibility to fix them. I think part of it would be trying to, like, reality, test with her and get her to connect her reality and, like, see where she is creating fantasy, like, right? Right now. It's not that she's she doesn't know. She's not like her conscious like experience is not true to what's happening in reality. And so you want to kind of like take her out of that, like fantasy and try to bring her consciousness to reality of like, look at where you are and like, help her understand that there's value in where she is. And it makes me wonder, kind of like thinking about her siblings being these Christians who, like, kind of disown, like who probably disown, like the way that her lifestyle is that I'm not quite Lady Morgan. I can't be them. Who can I be and still be like, loved and accepted and validated? And it makes me wonder about her relationship with her daughter and like what that's like at all. Because her daughter seems really interesting. And she's like an artist and, like, seems very cool. And I just wonder, like, if that's someone who she feels accepted by, like what her daughter's response now is because I think she was a really young child when the show started. And like, she's still I think she's only in her 20s. She's like a young person, but is old enough now to be like, what do you feel about, like how your mom is on this show and like, is that like, what is she like? I'm curious about their relationship. Like, who does accept Sonya just as Sonya and like, where is Sonya? Just herself. Where is she? Not Lady Morgan. Where is she? Not like, having to embody this, like, sex symbol and like, you know, use her sexuality for attention and for validation? Like, where does she get to just be her? And what does that even, like, look like? Well, I'm curious, like, off camera, Dorinda writes about this in her, like, biography or whatever, to which I still think is the best one I've read so far of all the Bravo books. Um, but she talks about, like I drink a lot in the show. We go to parties every single week, And then as soon as the show ends, I sort of detox. I reset like, I'm not like, you know, I take sense, right? Like, you don't like you're not being filmed. There's not a demand of you to show up in a certain way. and so that need for alcohol to cope in some way is not going to be as strong. Well, and I think, Sonia, they've talked about a lot of her kind of dipping out when they're not filming to like she's hard to get a hold of and blah, blah, blah. And it's interesting to get into the drinking of it all, because what I loved about Original Cerrone was the drunkenness. And it's not PC. It's very toxic. But let's be honest, throw those women in a room with some margaritas. And that's right. Like, I want to see Luann fall into a bush like I do. I know, or I want to see Sonia take off her top and, like, be her wild, free self in those moments. And there's something about New York in general, and maybe it's changed now. I actually have been reading articles about how a lot of nightclubs are closing because these new generation doesn't drink. But like back in that era, like everyone drank like three, four, five nights a week, like that was not something that would be judged in New York City in any way. No. You know, so I mean, it fit in with the culture as well, you know, like it doesn't I mean, you don't see the Beverly Hills women get like, wasted ever, you know, because that isn't really Beverly Hills, but it is New York. Um, so I think I always struggled with in general Roni like the drinking aspect of it because, you know, obviously Luann gets to you or got arrested for drinking and they are constantly, at least throughout the seasons. They're talking about Sonia's drinking in particular, right? Like there are multiple seasons where I think it's Bethany and even Ramona, and everyone kind of mentions like her drinking being concerning, which is interesting because they are all drinking in excess at different times. And yet it does feel like Sonia's drinking is to a level that feels more out of control than a lot of the other women. And when she like right when they do kind of confront her about it, she gets very like defensive. And it's interesting that it's it feels like one of her ways of dealing with her alcoholism is going to these like she talks about going to these retreats or these different like, right, spiritual things. And that's often the way she's dealing with her mental health is through, like spirituality, like she talks about having oh, I can't remember. There was one scene in the earlier season where she's like, I have a this and I have a this, and I have. Nowhere does she say I have like a cycle. I think she does say she has like a psychopharmacologist, which is like for people who don't understand, like Psychopharmacologists are not therapists, they just usually talk about medications. Right? They're talking about pharmacy, medical, the medical part of it. Um, and there's nowhere she mentions where she's like doing like deeper emotional until the very end when she's with that medium who brings up her dad. She's like, I'm finally seeing a therapist. I'm curious, like, what professional license that therapist has? Um, only because of her history of, like, here's all my other gurus, but none of them are, like, actually people who are probably going to, like, hold me accountable in a certain way or have some demand of like, insight for me. I know there's a lot of illusions about pills or what she's on throughout the series, but to be honest, sometimes the scenes I'm watching, I'm like, that's just drinking all day. Like, that's just when you drank all day. And like, her and Ramona are, like, on a coaster ride and in Girls Trip, like, even when they were in Morocco, they snuck away to a five star resort to drink rosé for like four hours without the other women. And then they come back wasted. And like, a part of me is like, I've been on girls trips with those women. I've been that woman on a girls trip. I've been that woman. And like, despite your age or your status or whatever, I kind of, like, always loved that because it was very, like, relatable. But then it's like when you're talking about someone in like their actual mental or like physical wellbeing is not great to watch. These women just spiral downward. And alcoholism, Um, well, I think that's like the concern probably people are having for Sonia and even Dorinda to a certain extent, towards the end of their runs on these shows was like like you were saying, if you're not seeing growth or any shifts and you're really seeing actually bigger decompensation, where like our the reality people responsible to say like, hey, we have to like take a step back from you until you, like, get some real help and maybe get some like, handle on this so that we're not culpable for something even worse happening here. Yeah. And then it was it's it's such a stark difference from the reboot of New York, where I remember one of those first dinners in the Hamptons. It was like half the women were like, yeah, we don't drink. And I was like, oh God, this is a fucking snooze fest. Like, truly you know so and it is kind of true. Right. Like because we even see that with like Kyle being sober on Housewives of Beverly Hills, like thinking about like they don't drink in the same way that those OG New Yorkers do. But like, I'm thinking about that scene in France with like, Kyle and Teddi and and Erika's kind of the one who's sober and judging them for like, being like, kind of silly and drunk and how like fun that was to watch. And yeah, maybe that's like something broken in me that's like, oh, it is like fun to watch them not be as to like, lose some inhibition. Yeah. It feels like you're watching a girls trip you could be on. And I want to be on that and I'm on it watching it with them. But like, it's harder for them to to be in a self producing role when they, they have like let go of some of that inhibition. Yeah. And you and you feel like you're getting real. You're just watching their real lives. I think Bethany was really good at it because she would get drunk and let loose, but then she was always on her, her shtick, whatever it was like she never lost control. Um, and I think that's what made her such a great a Housewives, because even rewatching Rhony, I forgot how little season she's even on because she leaves after the third or fourth third season. Right. So but I think the thing with Bethany is even though she's very controlled, that feels not like a producing thing. It feels like her personality, like it feels like like she's just this type a person like that is who she is. It doesn't feel like she's coming on trying to control what we see. It's like her whole life. She controls what everyone sees. And so that feels very different than like an Aaron who it feels like, oh, you're just controlling what we're allowed to see of you in your life. And that feels very different than, like, I, I think that Aaron is also type A in a similar way as Bethany, and she also steps into that like, producer role. Well, yeah, I mean, I think we're hitting on a lot of stuff if Ronny does or does not come back. I mean, if it comes back, regardless of the cast, it's got to be more natural. It's got to be like real life shit. And I think it's it's a problem with Bravo overall, you know, like keeping it grounded. Um, because it is becoming all the shows are becoming like, this fits into this box. This fits into that box. and it was great rewatching these original roni's because I was like, wow. Like the fluidity of, like, the scenes even just feels so natural and easy to watch. there's a scene where Bethany goes to Ramona's birthday with her, like, you know, 50 friends. She's like all my friends. And Bethany kind of describes her experience of walking into this situation with these women that, like, these aren't her people. Like, she's like, she's like, I've been to these lunches before, but like, it's always so uncomfortable for me. And this acknowledgement that, like, I'm being invited into this space, but it's not my space. And like, I want you to see how I'm interacting in this space that feels different, where it feels like in The New Roni, they're like, we're all just shoving each other together and trying to pretend like we all come together like this normally. Like Aaron would have her Roni birthday where it's just the girls on the show, and then she would off camera, have a real birthday party with her real friends, and we wouldn't ever where it's like, oh, and then we see all these, like, eccentric Upper East Side women who are Ramona's friends, who are all, like, there. And Bethany's kind of describing them all. She's like, oh, there's the woman that's like this, and oh, there's the woman that's like that. And then you like, get a flash of that woman. And it's hilarious and like, you're really brought into like a culture of. And I think that's the second part of the demise of of Roni is that there was a demand of like this, like cultural shift of diversity. And I don't think that was like what Roni was about. I think Roni was about just like these, about like showing us upper right, ignorant, Upper East Side, Women who like who didn't like that was what it when they got to just be themselves like they are who they are and like yeah, it's problematic and all of those things. And it is a specific culture we are looking at and to like, you know, bring in Ebony on who I really liked Ebony, but to bring her on and kind of put her, whether they intentionally or unintentionally put her in a position to like, demand the other women to have to become woke or to be more insightful about their like. Internalized racism is like a setup for everyone to fail both women and Ebony. I don't know that production realized they set her up in this way. I think it was like an unconscious setup by everyone of like trying to meet this demand of, like, create more diversity. And and in fairness, I think some of that is Ebony's personality. Like she goes on Breakfast Club, she's on Shade Room, she has her own news. Like she's a little bit of a, um, you know, she likes to, to speak about these issues. But and that's why people write. But that's why bringing her in, it's like she is this person. And so you're bringing her into this place. So she's just going to be who she is, which creates like a demand on the other women, which then like creates a setup for failure on both sides. And this doesn't end just to be clear. It doesn't excuse Ramona's behavior in any way, or she may or may not said off camera that, you know, obviously, and just like we know, she is deeply problematic, whether we have evidence of what was said or not, there's no doubt in my mind that she is someone who holds racism and like ignorance, like she's, you know, and there was something about like her being that person and seeing that, that like, felt important, like, this is like a part of culture that exists and like we can try to change it and we can try, but like demonizing this one woman for it doesn't change it. Like we need to be aware that this like sect of people exists in the world and why and like have some connection to it and some understanding of it, because changing it isn't about vilifying those people. That only creates more division, which what's interesting about what you're saying too, is like, is it better to make a show where it's a because this was the premise of Housewives, you take you take a niche group of people, you know, Coto de Caza or whatever. Um, in OC, the Upper East Side woman in New York, and you create a window that like we I would never be part of this community. Like, even if I got $1 million, they'd never welcome me with open arms into the Upper East Side, like a sociological cultural study, right? Like we're studying a specific culture of people in a certain part of the world in their bubble. And I think there's like you go to Ramona's birthday of 40 women, there wasn't a black woman there. There wasn't an Asian woman there like her. World is white, white witch women. That's her world. And I think there was a shift in Bravo. Like is the concept that it's more rewarding to just have a glimpse into that lifestyle, understand it, criticize it or critique it or whatever, versus adding cast to challenge it. And it's interesting because it definitely happened around the time of Donald Trump getting elected and the the cultural shifts happening there. It's happening around the same time. It felt like the whole network was going through. Right. Because that's the time that, like, Stassi and Kristen got fired for what they had done to Faith. Like, I feel like it was around like all of the shifts of, like, Black Lives Matter, the, um, George Floyd stuff, like, I think it was around all of that, that this happened because there was a bigger demand, I think, in the world for like we need to elevate accountability. Yeah, right. Accountability around voices of people of color. And like there is it's not that that's not valid. I think that is valid and I do I actually like the way you're framing this of like, do they bring in people that challenge this small like we're seeing this window of something? Do you bring in people to challenge it or do you just accept the status quo? And I don't know, like the full answer to that. But I do think that if you are bringing people into challenge it, it has to be natural. Yeah, it has to feel authentic. Like this is someone that, like a Garcelle, felt very natural in Beverly Hills. Like it didn't feel like bringing her in. Was bringing in someone so much younger, someone from like, a completely different world. Like she came in and created a challenge by being a black woman in that space and talking about those things, but still, like, you know, her values aren't so different than everyone there, right? Like, she's still like Hollywood and like, there's something that felt more authentic that like, okay, she's going to challenge them, but she can have relationships Like bringing in Ebony to come have conversations with Ramona and Luann about race is going to feel really patronizing to them. And I don't think that's Ebony's intention at all. But like that, it's again, like the setup for failure of like, where is that? Like, how is that going to be successful? Well, and in fairness to me, I felt it was I was I was riveted by that season. I thought it was like, I, I mean, I think going back to what you said, like Covid killed Roni way more than Ebony stuff. I know people were not. I still think it was like maybe some 50. I don't think Ebony did. Yeah. Don't do not get me wrong, I really liked Ebony. Yeah. I thought she had those conversations well. And really tried to, like, do it well. I again think the setup was on a deeper level of like, how are we going to integrate this in a way that feels like fun, but also talks about these things and the like, tension that kind of grew around that? Yeah. And Leo was also like a problem that season. And again, and I think if they were like in a, in an aspect of Ebony going to Ramona's 50 Best Friends dinner and being the only African American woman there like that would have been interesting to watch, you know, but they were so limited in their Covid interactions. It just it killed the whole season. I mean, even when they went to the Hamptons, they had to, like, be stuck in Ramona's house, like, I don't know, I, I found all those conversations and stuff with Ebony to be fascinating. I would love to do a podcast just on that. Um, because I don't remember, like, I know whatever, people were upset about it. But for me, I, I, I watched another I'm on your side. But I understand where where other people are coming from in where it was hard for them to get buy in into it. Well, and I think Bravo is in a little bit of a challenge in general right now because like you said, they kind of canceled a lot of people, Jax included. And, you know, now they're all kind of coming back. Kristen is back. Whatever. Um, she's getting her career back, like. Yeah, yeah. And like, what was the lasting impact of that? You know, and like that. Right. What was the accountability there? Unfair. But also kind of like we talked about this recently where I was like, I think Bravo's over their woke era and now they're back and they're like, we don't give any fucks era. Well, and yeah, if your question is sort of like what is like what is the right thing to do or like what? Like what should they do? Should it be like just like, don't give a fuck and like let things be or give more of a fuck and try to create demands like I don't think that. I don't think there's like a clear answer to that. And I struggle with that too. but then again, like we're going to go real broad with this. reality TV birthed Donald Trump. Like, let's be real, you know? Right, right. Um, like, Donald Trump was not the guy that was portrayed on The Apprentice. He is a Sonja Morgan just as much. Oh, my God, he is a Sonja Morgan. Whoa, whoa. Right. Like, because I think he deeply believes he is like a great businessman. I deeply believe he thinks he is doing, like, making the country great again. And like, the disconnect from, like, the realities of what he's doing to the country are like, wow. Doesn't she talk about, like, having been friends with him too? Yeah. I mean, I mean, how many bankruptcies he, you know, Donald Trump's been bankrupt more times than Sonja Morgan and is now president of the United States. So it's like, who are we also to sit here and say Sonja morgan's delusions of grandeur? I mean, again, like, you have these rich people who are have access to things that, like, we can't even fathom. And you put the right people with them and they can achieve the highest office in the land. but Sonja Morgan potentially be president. Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm like, okay, when you say all of her businesses, I'm like, is she a scammer? Is she a grifter? I don't know, because I kind of do believe, yes, but is she intentionally is she intentionally doing those things? Like, yes, I think she is. In the same way Donald Trump is. Right. Right. He knows he's selling a Bible with his name on it to make money, you know. Right. There's a part of her that must, like, be connected to understanding that. Like what? What she has to offer is not really a value in the way she says it is. And there's another part of her that's like, no, it is. Right. Like. And like that conflict between those two parts. Like, there must be some part of Donald Trump that understands he is full of shit. Is there though? That is, there must be a question. I don't know. I can't live in a world that you that that there's anyone that isn't like, again, like in some sort of like schizophrenia, like bigger side like that is completely disconnected from reality. Well, and there's nobody goes back to you can choose to ignore reality. You can like those are choices. They may be unconscious or semi-conscious or like some level of consciousness where like you are making a choice to ignore reality, but there's no way that no information is getting to Donald Trump or Sonia Morgan that like the reality she is creating because we know there isn't. Because as soon as Sonia is confronted with some of that reality, she starts to drink heavily and go into some sort of like tantrum dissociative state. And who does that remind you of? Who does that remind you there is. That is Donald Trump. But that's how you know that there's a part of them that's connected to the reality and just consciously deciding to disown it. I will not accept it. I will not let it in. I will like it's there, but I'm not going to. Right. Like this is my active rejecting of it. No, totally. Um, and I mean, I, I'm like, if you take anything away from this podcast. I'm sort of like, maybe you should take away if you have a dream, if you have a goal, if you have a business, just fucking do it. Like, own it with all your confidence. Just do it. But don't fake documents. Yeah. Get the right people around you. Like, do it, but try not to do anything illegal around it and like, have some sense of like, what's legal and what's not. Yeah, unless you are super rich because you can get out of it. Maybe, maybe maybe. I mean, I she must have paid off that 7 million judgment at this point. Um, yeah. And I mean, she's clearly super rich and just like, is again, like, made some really poor choices. I mean, her husband paid her out $3 million, and she had all those, like, homes. Oh, my God, the townhouse sold for, like, nothing, though. I know, but that was like, on her, right? Like she that townhouse was like like there were so many opportunities, probably for her to get rid of that townhouse at opportune times in the market. And she did not, because she was clinging, clinging, clinging to being that Morgan and that townhouse was a symbol of like the delusion. But it's interesting because the townhouse was also a symbol, a symbol of the delusion crumbling. Right? Like, because that townhouse was literally crumbling. Oh my God. I mean, the symbolism alone. so should we get into the final questions? Um, yeah, I think we've kind of addressed them, but let's, you know, just to, like, summarize. Yeah. Okay. So is she good for reality TV? I mean, she was on the show for so long, and she really like. Yes, yes, she's a star. Like she's a star. She's got star quality. She's got so much stuff. I think the deeper question is like if she engaged in active like mental health, work and sobriety, would she be good for reality TV? No. Like if she was the healthiest version of herself, would she be good for reality TV? No. And then that gets into is reality TV good for her? Like, no. Because I think it feeds her delusion. It definitely isn't good for her, but okay. And we've not seen her grow. We've only seen her decompensate over the ten or so season she was on. Well, what would be next for her, regardless of whatever? Um, because I did love did we love her on the like Sonja and Luann show where they go and help the town? Because I actually kind of like, love that. And I feel like she was still, like, messy, but it didn't feel like so unhealthy. Yeah, I mean, I love and they were doing good in the world. Yeah. And but what's interesting is that they didn't put her on Love Hotel and I wonder if she was ever considered. But I liked that. I liked that they broke up Luann and so like the combo because I think Luann is is great on that show. That show was like the first two episodes. I was like, this is bizarre. And now it's like my favorite show. I know every week I'm like, when's the new episode? I'm like, it really did a 180 and it's not even like my favorite women on Bravo. Like, I really don't like Shannon and she is full Shannon and I'm loving watching it. Uh, Giselle and Ashley are like, you know, I don't not like them, but they're not like, if you were like, who are your favorite? You know, Bravo stars. Like none of these. Maybe Lou Ann would come up, but like, none of the other one. Well, yeah. Giselle is like, unfortunately bringing like, absolutely nothing like I mean, she would not good commentary. She does bring good commentary. But like as far as like a dating show, I'm like, she's the most cut off person. Like, I think that's why they need her, right? Because all the other women are so, like, Shannon is so desperate and Luann is so just like out there, and Ashley is, like, so flirtatious that it's like it is. It does create a balance to have Giselle there being this sort of like different way of dating. Yeah. I mean, the casting of the guys on the show, whoever did the casting, I just want to say is both brilliant and like, I don't understand it. Yeah. I mean, they tapped into something. Guessing is such a hard job. And where they found these men, I don't know, but I like, applaud them. but I would be interested to maybe see a Sonia without an like she had to be on her own dating. But like, I don't know if I believe like that. She would actually want to like Ramona, I believe, wants a husband again. Um, I mean, I don't know what she ever do. Some sort of, like, mental health show on Bravo. I would love to see Sonia on that. Where they do like, sort of like those, like family therapy shows or whatever. I mean, we keep pitching this every week. I feel like I feel like Sonia would be a really good because I think we don't know that much about her. Like, I wonder if we could get more like we could really kind of, like, dive into something deeper and and get a sense of like, what does it look like when she. Because like, I imagine if they did have that, they'd have to stay sober for those weeks and like, but be put in intentionally vulnerable situations that in the past Sonia would respond to with drinking and like what would happen if she couldn't respond to like, that vulnerable situation by drinking? And that could be interesting. Yeah, I worked on this show for TBS called Lost Resort, which was a really, really well casted. like the concept was great. Um, and I would love to see like a Bravo version of it because it was basically like they went to Costa Rica and they casted, you know, I think it was like 8 or 10 people and they had like all different healers, um, that like, I want to see a group therapy with Sonia and Craig having to like, confront their like, storyteller parts. Oh my God. I mean, I would like to see Sonia back on TV, but I also, I don't know. I don't yeah, I have to be in the right packaging. Um, I know I'd totally be willing for them to bring back Roni OG and just, like, let's see what happens. Like, I don't know. I know, and she doesn't. I guess she doesn't live in New York anymore. So West Palm Beach bitches, I don't know, so this ended up being a twisty turny episode, I have to say, but is there any Bravo news that want to cover? I want to give a brief shout out that we've been we've been told we're too harsh on Lindsay Hubbard. Oh, we have been. Um, someone commented on our recent post that, um, we don't take in her experience quite enough. And, um, I was like, that's fair. Um, that may be true. I mean, she reminds me of certain people in my life, and that might be like a countertransference for me. That makes it very hard for me to fully take in her experience. Um, oh, and that's interesting because I was going to say I feel like I'm similar to Lindsay. Maybe that's it too. She's like some people in my life like you. I mean, not now. I can see also, but I can also see parts of myself as well. Like, there's definitely, like, a bigger spectrum for me that I could see where I have roadblocks to being to being able to, like, take in her entire experience. Yeah. Because I feel like in my 20s, I was very much like her in the sense of like dating for marriage and like having like I have very high, like, even though we're so nice to men, for some reason, I actually have really high standards for guys. And maybe now that I'm married and like, you know, going through a different stage of my life, I'm actually having to like, downplay like the like the level of accountability I have because like, once you're like, that's why I don't know. I'm sorry. I still believe in Karl and Lindsay's love. I just like sometimes I think, let it go, let it go. If they had just, like, gotten down the aisle, I feel like that's so toxic. I feel like they would have fixed some of the things I don't know. I don't know, I don't think so, I don't know, I mean, we haven't seen her talk about Turner on the reunion yet, so like we'll get to that. But like, um, you know, even what she said in the finale was sort of interesting. Like, she's always changing the goalposts. It's so frustrating to me. I'm like, your whole thing with Karl last season about his job was that you wanted to have a baby and not have to work, and he could provide everything, and he was obviously not ready to be in that place. And you were like putting a literal deadline of like Labor Day that he needed to have a Labor Day. You need a labor. And then she meets this, I mean, supposedly great guy. We don't know, um, who has this great job and is making all this money. And then your complaint is he doesn't want to be public. And that's how I, you know, I think it also makes you happy that like, but if you have your baby and aren't going to work, then why would that matter? That's where I'm like, lost. Um, because there's so many ways for her to be public without being a reality star. You know, she can, you know, make her an influencer. Yeah. So I'm like, you can still do all of that without being on reality TV. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely, like a lot of conflicts in Lindsay that are like hard to like, sit with, like and like I should be able I guess I should be in a better place of just being able to like, validate that. Like I have those two, right? Like I want all the things like I want to not have to work and I want to work and I want to like, have someone with lots of money and like, I want like a nice guy who isn't an asshole. Like, I want all those things too, that don't exist. Um, well, and and I think a lot of women relate to her because in fairness, the bar for men is just rock bottom these days. And like, especially in New York City. Yeah. And then, like, the way that she really challenges the guy she's with to be at the level that she expects is very empowering. this season particularly I know we go back to the drinking but like her not drinking um, even like the freedom dinner and other points where I was like, oh God, she's gonna she's gonna Lindsay off. She came down quite well, like, and and I think motherhood is like amazing on her. And like, she's shown a different side of motherhood that I think is really cool. Like, I think we can eat our own words. That we were like a pregnant woman in the summer house is like chaotic and weird and like it was, obviously. But like in a great way. Like like she I don't know that I support pregnant women in the summer house moving forward though, like in Amanda next. Well, because I do think that like we saw another side of her and that was really nice and it was nice to see like the quote unquote softer side of Lindsey, which is like, I think what we did see as a pregnant woman. Yeah. And I think it feels similar to like when Janet was pregnant that first season of The Valley of like, they're like, no one is going to confront or get into conflict with the pregnant person. And so, like, it's much easier for them to show up in a certain way because there isn't like threats, there's less threat, right? Like people are going to be walking on eggshells being like, I don't want to like upset the pregnant lady. And I don't think it creates like a fair level playing field for engagement with each other. I agree, but I will say I think more people would have confronted her about her relationship with Turner and him not being there and even like having gotten pregnant to me two months into the relationship. But like, who wants to like, have conflict with the pregnant lady? And Danielle got so much shit for that. But honestly, I thought she deserved. She's asking the questions that I wanted to ask, like she deserved a spot on the reunion more than Gabby. That made me so mad. I was like, why is Gabby here? Like, what were you on this season? but yeah, I mean, Carl and Lindsay being in that house together is like, unbelievable. Like how they manage that whole thing was, like, really on both of them. Yeah, those are professionals. Um, I mean, they were better than Wes and Sierra. They had, like, um. Yeah, they spent a lot of time in Western Sierra at the reunion, but I really appreciated, like, Sierra's backstory about her family and it was really, really interesting. I wish we had gotten that on the season. Um, I also think it gave a lot of context to like the comment about West using her, and I felt like we needed that, um, like, right, there was so much to that story that wasn't told that like, created one narrative. And now, like, we have another piece that, like, allows us to have a bigger perspective of like, oh, this wasn't just like West being like an immature f boy. Like there was deeper things that were happening around this that like, create more complication. Well, I mean, turning your phone off for two weeks in Costa Rica is is a drastic move. I think anyone you're dating would be kind of confused at least. Or, um, but I don't know, I think in a newer relationship with a immature guy, like, no offense, West, but you're not the most mature. And you're going through this, like, complicated family stuff. And he's just like, I don't have the capacity to support you. Like, there's something valid in that being like, I wish I could, but I don't. And so it doesn't really feel fair for me to be in this, like to be offering this thing to you that I'm not going to be able to do. I felt like in that reunion, I saw more of that first season of Sierra and less of like the seasons where we've been seeing, um, especially that second season that she was on Winter House. Like, she just didn't want to do it. It felt like, um, which, I mean, who would want to go live with Austin in a house after all that shit? Um, but yeah. So I'd be interested to see Sarah again. I know Summer House is in flux, and everyone's like, you know, on the edge of their seat trying to figure out what they're going to do with it, but, um, yeah. And then I don't know, Is there other news? I guess our news is this is will be our last episode for a while. We're going to take a little, little break, because in two weeks, I will hopefully have a child out of my body. Yay! We can't wait. But I want to do more, like deep dives like this. Um, because it was really fun to actually have the time for once in my life to rewatch, like, a ton of Bravo. And there's just so much content with someone like this. Yeah, and like, the old stuff is great, and there's really not that much going on on Bravo right now. I mean, Miami's coming back. Coming back, and I'm excited for that. Yeah I want to do Alexia. Mhm. We'll have to pin that. That might be our next because I don't understand her divorce at all? I don't either, yeah. Like, maybe once this season plays out, we can do an Alexia one. That'll be around the time. Maybe we'll be ready to do another one. Anyways, follow us on Instagram. Um, we love your commentary, especially when you call us out. Um, because it's fun and because we like to reflect and think about, like where our blind spots are. We're human. We're not Sonja Morgan Donald Trump delusion, though, or we don't. At least we don't think we are. for listening.